Latest / Brett Keane and Eve Show / Brett Keane Talks Annihilationism and Old Earth Creationism

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Brett Keane Talks Annihilationism and Old Earth Creationism · Brett Keane and Eve Show

• 0:11
  You'll blow wherever the wind blows.
• 0:13
  You'll go wherever the wind we do.
• 0:15
  Well, yeah, You give. Yeah.
• 0:16
  We didn't go where your wind was blowing.
• 0:18
  It didn't smell good. This was why we named our uh,
• 0:23
  calendar years about the Lord. It's all about the Lord and this
• 0:26
  is where it comes from, but what about all the verses about pre
• 0:34
  estination you guys don't want to address?
• 0:38
  Do you know what kind of relationship Martin Luther had
• 0:46
  after he broke with the Roman Catholic Church?
• 0:49
  Well, well, the well to understand that he was raised
• 0:53
  and educated as a Roman Catholic, so.
• 0:55
  I would. How about John Calvin?
• 0:58
  You think that same thing happened to him?
• 1:00
  Same thing. Because again, they were they.
• 1:11
  My mom didn't cut smoke. Drink.
• 1:15
  Let's watch anything. About E G13.
• 1:18
  And drug us a church. My dad sold drugs.
• 1:21
  And. Got drunk and high on various
• 1:24
  substances. And.
• 1:25
  Came home like a mess. You to ask a question and send
• 1:36
  it out into the atmosphere. You believed in your heart it
• 1:40
  was going to be received somewhere and probably not by
• 1:42
  the universe, right? How can a star that's exploding
• 1:46
  answer you? So you had to believe
• 1:48
  fundamentally that there's something that's like, God, I'm
• 1:54
  making a motion on the table. We need to change Proverbs guys
• 1:58
  name to Prospector guys name because he's digging for gold,
• 2:02
  right? Now they call it CE current era
• 2:09
  and BCE before current era. And if you want to immediately
• 2:14
  an immediate sign that someone is not a Christian, they're
• 2:17
  going to be using CE and BCE, yeah, but I never said I'd give
• 2:22
  in to predestination that that's a total fallacy.
• 2:27
  Maybe people should start lining up at your house and asking you
• 2:30
  to put it out like a print. Print a list of things that they
• 2:32
  need to do in order to be saved. Dude, you don't know what you're
• 2:35
  talking about. Love one another as I have loved
• 2:42
  you. Not a suggestion.
• 2:45
  Taking up a hour to talk about Saint Fatima isn't gonna save
• 2:49
  him. Just I guess yes or no wouldn't
• 2:51
  would help me understand. Do you believe that?
• 2:55
  Salvation can only be found through faith, like Paul talks
• 2:59
  about all through romance. The next question that begged
• 3:03
  is, have you ever looked into the possibility, with the same
• 3:06
  enthusiasm that you do the scientific approach, that there
• 3:09
  might be a God in a different manner or yeah, that doesn't
• 3:12
  interest you. You do agree, though, that
• 3:15
  you're basing your current beliefs off of false
• 3:19
  information. Why would I agree with that?
• 3:22
  No, I don't agree with that. Well, you have to go with it.
• 3:26
  I'll explain. You've acknowledged that there
• 3:29
  is a possibility, at the very least that there is a God,
• 3:33
  correct? If that is possibly answer C,
• 3:38
  why are you only considering A and B as a possibility when you
• 3:43
  haven't ever researched option C at all by your own admission?
• 3:50
  Joe, you just read Romans 9 and then completely misparted at 5
• 3:53
  seconds later. Yeah, I just think we have free
• 3:56
  will, right? So we have to choose.
• 3:57
  God He calls. We have to answer.
• 3:59
  That's all. There's nothing into it.
• 4:02
  We have His grace to forgive us a rush sins once we do answer.
• 4:05
  But we there's free will for us to make, the chance worker
• 4:08
  actually told me today weekend. He's like, you know, man, you're
• 4:11
  just kind of unpleasant to deal with sometimes and.
• 4:15
  True is a little personal, but you know, I told them after
• 4:19
  thinking about it. I told them today, everybody,
• 4:22
  welcome to Proverbs Guy Ministries.
• 4:24
  I'm your host, Proverbs Guy, and you're not.
• 4:28
  We have a jam packed panel tonight.
• 4:30
  Tonight's going to be very special because it won't be
• 4:34
  atheist versus Christians. It's going to be Globers versus
• 4:38
  flat earthers. That is if any of them are brave
• 4:42
  enough to come take the ridicule.
• 4:45
  Guys, how are you this evening? Well, I guess I respond so it
• 4:53
  isn't completely awkward in here.
• 4:55
  I'm doing great, always exciting to hang out with you Proverbs.
• 4:59
  And looks like we got some good people here.
• 5:01
  Yeah. Dustin, have you been priming
• 5:06
  all day long to take on the flirthers?
• 5:08
  I. Don't need the prime much, but
• 5:11
  I'm ready for it. Well, we'll see.
• 5:16
  If they are brave enough to come in, that is fantastic.
• 5:20
  Anything is open for discussion though until they arrive.
• 5:24
  And Ryan again, I told you backstage, but your show last
• 5:28
  night was phenomenal. We had a whole panel of Brand
• 5:32
  New Atheists and New Believers and everybody got along and it
• 5:36
  was great. Thank you.
• 5:37
  Thank you. I enjoyed it tremendously.
• 5:39
  I really did and I'm really looking forward to next week
• 5:42
  also. It should be another bang up.
• 5:45
  Should be another great night with Eli Yoder.
• 5:48
  Hey Doom, do you think we could see the dragon?
• 5:57
  This is proof, guys, that evolution is real.
• 6:00
  This dragon was a lizard. Oh, wow.
• 6:07
  It's got a bearded dragon and she's adorable.
• 6:14
  I I had to take her to the vet with him.
• 6:16
  Yeah, I'll show you. Yeah, let's see it do.
• 6:20
  He got a a friend for her, but she kept biting, so he had to
• 6:25
  separate it into another cage and it just didn't do well.
• 6:34
  Darkness, I will add you into the room, but your cam's on.
• 6:38
  I don't know if you knew that. OK, awesome.
• 6:43
  How are you doing Darkness? I'm doing well, proverbs.
• 6:48
  I typically turn it off because it'll robot.
• 6:53
  Wow, that's beautiful. Or they are beautiful, I guess I
• 6:57
  should say. Wow, I just found out two degree
• 7:00
  temperature. This temperature is 2 degrees.
• 7:05
  You may need to go to the. Doctor Ryan, it's 2 degrees
• 7:08
  above normal. It's 100.8.
• 7:11
  So I might be picking up the phone tomorrow.
• 7:14
  Lucky wanted me to call in today and I said no, no, no, I gotta
• 7:17
  go work today. I might.
• 7:19
  I would suggest you maybe go by the hospital.
• 7:23
  Well, no, it's not that bad, Steve 108.
• 7:26
  No, 100.8. Oh well that's that's still
• 7:30
  that's up there, man. Keep an eye on it.
• 7:32
  Take some Tylenol and then yeah, maybe alternate with ibuprofen.
• 7:36
  Yeah, 108, I would be in the back of an ambulance right now.
• 7:39
  I want anything to break the temperature.
• 7:43
  Well, I only just now, I only just now realized for sure that
• 7:47
  I have one, You know, I was feeling fevery and and so I
• 7:54
  thought, let me check my temperature and sure enough it's
• 7:56
  100.8. We'll see what it's like in the
• 7:59
  morning. I don't think I'm going to work
• 8:00
  in the morning. I wouldn't recommend it, Ryan.
• 8:06
  I'm not going to mention the word, but the the big C thing
• 8:09
  that was going around not too long ago.
• 8:11
  You guys know what I'm talking about.
• 8:12
  I was supposed to be another variant coming out that's worse
• 8:16
  and it's undetectable. They say it's coming back around
• 8:21
  again. Yeah, it probably is.
• 8:24
  We shall see you soon, Darkness. Are you prepared to take on the
• 8:29
  flirthers tonight? Hold on a second.
• 8:35
  Let this let this compressors compressor stop.
• 8:37
  I'm just excited because we don't disagree when it comes to
• 8:41
  this particular topic. It's possibly one of the few, if
• 8:45
  not only topics that Christians and atheists can agree on.
• 8:50
  It's just nice to be on the same team for me.
• 8:53
  I'll. Disagree with that?
• 8:54
  Like, I know you guys are conservative.
• 8:56
  I think if I've heard correctly, like for the most part.
• 8:59
  So we'll disagree maybe on religion and politics, but I
• 9:02
  think there's a wide. Range of things we can all agree
• 9:06
  on just in everyday life, right? We we share more in common than
• 9:11
  we then less probably I would say.
• 9:08
  Like I'm. Now you might say those issues
• 9:15
  are going to be big, but I would say like on on a litany of
• 9:20
  different things, we probably share a lot in common.
• 9:23
  Darkness. I have known a couple of
• 9:25
  politically conservative atheists or agnostics or
• 9:28
  whatever they were. I got to be honest though Ryan.
• 9:31
  He nailed me on the head. I have multiple Ron DeSantis
• 9:34
  tshirts in my closet. He kicked off me hiring Square.
• 9:38
  Yeah, called it. I might get one too.
• 9:43
  Yeah. Yeah, 47.
• 9:46
  Brent, I love how you did that, That background with the sun
• 9:50
  moving around the Flat Earth. Well, that's one of the other
• 9:54
  problems with their claim there. They're not just arguing that
• 9:58
  the the planet's shape is messed up, but they're actually
• 10:01
  claiming that the sun is extremely small, as well as the
• 10:05
  moon. So they have the entire impact
• 10:08
  there and their argument for the universe when they do this.
• 10:14
  You know, I never really considered it, but I think
• 10:16
  you're right, man. Once you get into the Flat Earth
• 10:19
  spectrum, it's going to, it's going to affect everything down
• 10:25
  the road and it's inevitably going to go back to the rest of
• 10:28
  the universe. And then you have to start
• 10:30
  explaining questions like why is this the only flat planet we
• 10:33
  observe? And that's awkward.
• 10:37
  Yeah, that's a good point. Even with the, you know, naked
• 10:41
  eye, we're able to see that everything that's that is out
• 10:44
  there that is enormous is usually sear shaped.
• 10:47
  So how did they explain that? Why isn't any of the other
• 10:50
  planets look like that? Well, if you guys if I could.
• 10:57
  I. I would think, right, like they
• 11:01
  don't believe we've ever seen another planet because the same
• 11:05
  technology we use to see other planets we use to see the Earth,
• 11:10
  right? Like all the science, all the
• 11:11
  technology we use to discern how the universe is, we apply that
• 11:16
  to this particular planet as well I think.
• 11:20
  But the short of it is they don't believe we've, if they do
• 11:24
  believe we've seen other planets in that round, they don't
• 11:26
  believe we've ever seen this planet because we've never been
• 11:29
  outside of the the Dome, right? Like they don't believe we've
• 11:33
  been in space, right? They believe that even the space
• 11:37
  station is high up in our atmosphere and I think they said
• 11:41
  the theory was some type of weather balloon held it up
• 11:44
  there. Right.
• 11:46
  And then like there's a magic barrier or.
• 11:50
  And look, please don't don't take any offense to to a lot of
• 11:53
  what I'm going to say because some of it is Biblically placed.
• 11:56
  But they believe, like some of them will argue, that God has
• 12:00
  put in some sort of barrier, that when you get to the edge,
• 12:04
  it circles you back around or somehow you'll never get to the
• 12:07
  edge or something. But the shortest, I don't think
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  they believe they've ever seen the earth outside of standing on
• 12:14
  it. Right.
• 12:15
  Like so they no, that's accurate.
• 12:17
  Yeah, they have no idea what the what it looks like.
• 12:21
  They they believe, and they'll argue with you till the cows
• 12:24
  come home. They believe that all the NASA
• 12:27
  photos we have of Earth and other planets are all digitally
• 12:32
  altered. Even even the ones that even the
• 12:37
  ones second in the city to a perspective, they kind of are,
• 12:42
  because you're really distant from the microphone, Dustin.
• 12:45
  Yeah, it's hard to hear him. You guys know that There's a,
• 12:48
  there's a. Photos that were taken back in
• 12:51
  the 60s have been digitally altered.
• 12:52
  OK. Did you guys know there's a
• 12:55
  YouTube channel out there where they 24/7 record the Earth
• 12:59
  satellites going over it as the flat Earthers haven't gotten
• 13:03
  around to that, but there's actually a channel that looks at
• 13:07
  the planet all day long. Have you ever have, has any of
• 13:11
  you ever asked one about GPS? How do we have GPS?
• 13:16
  I think I asked that question one time in a room with a Flat
• 13:18
  Earth Ranelli. He just flippantly said, oh, GPS
• 13:21
  is ground based. Whatever, whatever.
• 13:24
  OK, you know they they they have the rescue device for every
• 13:29
  every challenge. Well, and that's the thing.
• 13:32
  I would love for them to come on tonight when we have an actual
• 13:35
  intelligent panel and defend the claims.
• 13:39
  We all have our pet beliefs that we hold to and we're all put in
• 13:44
  awkward positions from time to time to defend it.
• 13:48
  And I think flat Earthers could have the same opportunity
• 13:51
  tonight and we would promise and turn to be respectful.
• 13:57
  I agree, Doom. How is the dragon holding up?
• 14:05
  Good. I've never actually asked you
• 14:08
  Doom. You are a Glober though,
• 14:10
  correct? What you believe the earth was
• 14:14
  round, not flat? It's just round.
• 14:17
  Does anyone here believe the Earth's flat?
• 14:20
  Not yet. We're waiting on them to show
• 14:24
  their heads. OK, I didn't buy any flat
• 14:28
  earther. I put out a lot of plugs on
• 14:33
  Facebook in the Hebrew Roots communities, and I put a lot of
• 14:36
  plugs out on Discord server. I made Facebook posts and I had
• 14:41
  multiple friends putting posts out in various social media
• 14:45
  platforms. So sometime after the first 45
• 14:50
  minutes is when a lot of people start jumping on the panel.
• 14:53
  I expect it would be the same tonight, so maybe in the next 30
• 14:56
  minutes we'll see more people coming on and hopefully some of
• 15:00
  those people are flat Earthers who are brave enough to come
• 15:04
  tell us why they believe the way they do.
• 15:08
  Hey, proverbs, I like. To ask them what, how they think
• 15:11
  night and day happens. Well, if you look right above
• 15:15
  you on Brett Keane's screen, you can kind of get an explanation
• 15:21
  for how they think it works. Darkness.
• 15:24
  What's up, brother? So I think there's also a big,
• 15:30
  so if you, I don't know the science of any of this very well
• 15:33
  at all, right. So that's never.
• 15:35
  And scientifically isn't going to be important to me.
• 15:37
  As I've told you when we have these discussions for multitude
• 15:42
  of reasons, we could talk about another time.
• 15:45
  But there's also a very interesting concept with the
• 15:49
  flat earthers that a lot of them may not even really believe it,
• 15:54
  but they like the community of it, right?
• 15:57
  Like they're I I watched the documentary on.
• 16:01
  One of the conferences they, they like went into the
• 16:04
  conference for a three day conference and they were talking
• 16:08
  to the people. And a lot of the people were
• 16:10
  like, yeah, you know, I'm not sure whether or not I'm
• 16:12
  convinced at this point, but man, this is a cool community,
• 16:16
  right? Like, I like the people, I like
• 16:17
  the this. They like being the only ones
• 16:20
  that have like some sort of secret thing that they can argue
• 16:24
  about or that they can have to call their own.
• 16:26
  So that that is another aspect of this and when you watch some
• 16:29
  of these debates. I do have trouble thinking like,
• 16:33
  what's that shitheads? Sorry, what's the guy's name
• 16:36
  that Mark debates every now and then with?
• 16:38
  It Gets it or whatever. I have no idea who you're
• 16:41
  talking about. The only one I know that he
• 16:43
  debates is Kent Oven. So if you go on to the Flat
• 16:46
  Earth modern day debate platform, there's a couple.
• 16:49
  I've only been able to watch one, but it's a lot of rhetoric,
• 16:51
  it's a lot of laughing. It's a lot of like pejorative,
• 16:54
  like name calling and things like that.
• 16:56
  But look, a lot of the guys that are actually high up in this
• 16:59
  that that debate on Flat Earth, they're making a lot of money,
• 17:02
  right? So there's that underlying like,
• 17:05
  do they really believe it or they just make in bank on
• 17:08
  debating this stuff and you know, however many people are
• 17:11
  following them. Well, here's my thing, and I
• 17:15
  hate to admit this because it's a it's a little embarrassing,
• 17:20
  but most flat earthers are religious people.
• 17:23
  They're believers, and the way they describe the earth, it's
• 17:27
  actually even a little bit different from the one that
• 17:29
  Brett is showing. They believe it's literally
• 17:32
  built on pillars. However, it's just floating, and
• 17:37
  they concede to the fact that it's just floating, sort of
• 17:40
  rendering pillars useless. And they don't quite understand
• 17:44
  that that portion of scripture is filled with poetry.
• 17:48
  It's totally oblivious to them. I think kind of describes it
• 17:55
  like a snow glow that, like they said, it's something called the
• 18:00
  filament, right? That's like the what separates
• 18:04
  the sky from the earth. Yeah, there are.
• 18:08
  We do believe in that. There are certain passages in
• 18:11
  the Bible that are clearly, clearly meant to be.
• 18:16
  Like when it talks about the mountains singing and the trees
• 18:19
  clapping their hands. Obviously, we don't think that
• 18:22
  that literally happened. You know well, but but Ryan,
• 18:26
  don't you? Would you?
• 18:28
  Would you agree as well, though, that there are passages you
• 18:31
  might take literally that someone else would say is a
• 18:35
  poetic passage? Absolutely, yeah.
• 18:39
  You would have to give a specific passage, though, to be
• 18:42
  able to tell you whether the context is poetry or the context
• 18:46
  is. Literal.
• 18:46
  No, no, no, no. But that's not what I was.
• 18:49
  That's not what I was getting at.
• 18:50
  My my point is not to argue with you over certain passages.
• 18:54
  But to just simply say that like the flat earthers take certain
• 18:59
  passage literally that we all would agree, hey these are this
• 19:03
  is poetic, right. There are I have many Christian
• 19:06
  friends and the reason that they're different denominations
• 19:10
  of Christianity. There are different beliefs with
• 19:11
  inside each of the nomination and there are as there.
• 19:15
  There are so many different types of or there are so many
• 19:17
  different types of Christians are because people interpret the
• 19:20
  book very differently and even down to.
• 19:24
  This panel, the five of you, I'm almost willing to bet that.
• 19:30
  And now the 6th of you, I'm willing to bet that there are
• 19:33
  passages that you all would be on different sides of the coin,
• 19:36
  right? There's there's not going to be
• 19:38
  100% of that book where you say this is literal and this is
• 19:41
  poetry. So darkness, you're probably
• 19:46
  right on that. I will have to concede to that
• 19:48
  point, but I think that it's only, I think the odds are five
• 19:53
  to two. I believe Doom is on your side
• 19:55
  of the fence here, so you're not even like that much outnumbered.
• 20:00
  You do got some backup and that's awesome.
• 20:04
  That's I just well, even Doom. And I may disagree.
• 20:07
  When we read the Bible about what would be have been written
• 20:11
  to be literal or poetic, would you agree with that Doom?
• 20:15
  Yes, but I'm like an atheist. So I think with all of it's like
• 20:22
  metaphor, sure, I do as well do most of it, but I do believe
• 20:27
  there are certain things that were written by the believers
• 20:30
  that wrote the book to be literal, to be literal and and
• 20:35
  poetic. And that was my general point,
• 20:38
  right? Like, there's so many different
• 20:39
  interpretations or ways to do that that when you say simply,
• 20:43
  oh, but the flat earthers are misinterpreting things that were
• 20:46
  meant to be poetic as literal. It's for me.
• 20:49
  I immediately see the connection with all Christians do that to
• 20:53
  an extent, right? Yeah.
• 20:56
  That's very true. However, the Bible is very
• 20:58
  clear, Okay. Like if you're in the book of
• 21:00
  Psalms, you can expect more poetry than if you read
• 21:04
  Shakespeare. That's just how David wrote in
• 21:08
  Psalms. It's poetic, and he uses a lot
• 21:10
  of poetic language. An example Ryan gave earlier
• 21:15
  were trees clapping. But it's always clear it it
• 21:18
  never leaves it up for debate. Like, is this accurate?
• 21:20
  No, it's it's always extremely poetic or extremely literal.
• 21:26
  Well, Proverbs, you, you'd said something yesterday that I agree
• 21:30
  with and it's it is also one of the reasons why I think that
• 21:33
  there's so many different views and theistic ways of looking at
• 21:37
  things. You had said that you've met a
• 21:40
  lot of religious people who hadn't actually taken time to
• 21:44
  read the Bible. The kind of cherry picked some
• 21:46
  passages and then went with it and kind of created their own
• 21:49
  religion around it, or their own perspective, or
• 21:53
  anthropomorphized God. So I think that's one of the
• 21:56
  reasons I notice if I'm in a room with people who are well
• 21:59
  researched in the Bible, we don't usually have any kind of
• 22:02
  arguments. But if I get in a room with
• 22:04
  someone who's only read like a couple passages here and there
• 22:08
  and maybe did some Sunday school, they don't have a clue
• 22:11
  where they're at. Yeah, that that's a great point.
• 22:17
  And you know what? I think you're right.
• 22:19
  I mean, although to be fair and by the way, everybody say hi to
• 22:22
  Captain Stump. Welcome brother.
• 22:25
  Thank you. I'm here for the debate and I
• 22:29
  I'm on the flatter side and I'm not afraid.
• 22:31
  Go ahead. Whoa, wait.
• 22:33
  You're on the flatter side, all right.
• 22:37
  This is a revelation. That's a joke.
• 22:40
  Well, we're actually waiting on Grayson.
• 22:42
  Grayson should be here any moment, and Grayson promised
• 22:45
  that he could accurately and convincingly strongly in the
• 22:48
  Flat Earth position for us. If no Flat Earth, there is brave
• 22:52
  enough to come on, and it's shaping that way.
• 22:59
  No, that was a. Model Show tonight, I'm pretty
• 23:02
  sure. Well, that's sad, Captain Stump.
• 23:06
  Are you? Are.
• 23:06
  Are you being sarcastic or do you really hold to the idea of a
• 23:10
  Flat Earth? I'm not trying to be hateful.
• 23:12
  Just wondered. No, just trying to get you guys
• 23:16
  juices blowing. I don't believe a Flat Earth.
• 23:19
  I was trying to get you guys attention peaked.
• 23:23
  There's a Flat Earth. There it is on the back of a
• 23:25
  turtle. Cool.
• 23:26
  I think that's from the Greek mythology, isn't it?
• 23:29
  The Greeks are the ones that believe the Flat Earth was on
• 23:32
  the back of a sea turtle. I was Native Americans,
• 23:36
  American. Or the Indian Indians.
• 23:39
  I think it's like a Buddhist thing, I think like a Asian
• 23:43
  belief. But this is from a book I've
• 23:46
  read. This.
• 23:47
  This world. I want to make a point, if I
• 23:51
  could, about something you guys are speaking about.
• 23:52
  Right before I came on, you guys spoke about how, like the trees
• 23:58
  clap their hands. I believe that's not real,
• 23:59
  right? It's like a it's some kind of
• 24:01
  metaphor or something. But then, But then I want to
• 24:05
  make a point for what I believe, right?
• 24:07
  But then when we when we hear the garden eating where Adam was
• 24:10
  put, we we hear trees of life and trees of knowledge, then we
• 24:15
  say that's a real carnal place. You got to be consistent.
• 24:21
  Well, to say that there's no way the trees were a supernatural
• 24:27
  variety. You would have to apply that to
• 24:29
  the entirety of the scripture stump.
• 24:31
  So if you do that, and I understand you, you sort of have
• 24:35
  to for your belief in Genesis. That's fine.
• 24:39
  But when you start applying it that way, you have to do that
• 24:41
  through the entirety of the scriptures, and then you're
• 24:45
  rewriting a lot of text. Why would you say that?
• 24:49
  You just said that the trees are clapping.
• 24:50
  Our hands are not real trees, but yet the tree of knowledge
• 24:54
  and is a real tree. I also use the example that you
• 24:59
  find that in the Book of Psalms, right?
• 25:00
  What is the Book of Psalms? The Book of Psalms is journals
• 25:04
  of poetry from King David. It's the longest book of the
• 25:07
  Bible. It's consistent from start to
• 25:10
  finish. It's poetic, poetically
• 25:14
  influenced very strongly throughout the entirety of the
• 25:17
  longest book, which is Psalms. So there's no guessing which is
• 25:22
  poetic and which is real. Genesis is very different.
• 25:26
  Genesis, the entirety of it, reads as an accurate history
• 25:30
  book. The only exception would have to
• 25:33
  be the Garden of Eden. If you believe that, or you have
• 25:38
  to believe that. A lot of other stuff in
• 25:41
  Genesis's history is also just poetic.
• 25:44
  That's a slippery slope stump. Well, we know there's a
• 25:47
  spiritual we agree there's a spiritual world, right?
• 25:50
  We don't believe, like atheist, that there's only this carnal
• 25:53
  earth and that's it. And what we understand to be
• 25:55
  this carnal world, we know there's a spiritual world, so
• 25:59
  why couldn't that spiritual world be somewhere where man was
• 26:02
  actually at? What's hard about that?
• 26:04
  Now we know that a tree in this carnal world is not going to
• 26:06
  clap their hands. We know that, right?
• 26:08
  But we don't know. We don't know when God created
• 26:11
  the earth was a spiritual or carnal, but we just jumped right
• 26:14
  to the carnal. Even though we hear of a tree of
• 26:15
  knowledge and we hear a tree of life, which are not carnal
• 26:18
  trees. I'm just saying we have to be
• 26:20
  consistent, right? We either, we don't believe in
• 26:23
  the spiritual. We do believe in spiritual.
• 26:25
  We believe that carnal things can do spiritual aspect things.
• 26:28
  They can clap their hands. You know the rocks can cry out.
• 26:31
  You know, can rocks cry out as far as we know currently?
• 26:34
  So I think I have a unique perspective on it because in a
• 26:38
  lot of Protestant Christian circles it's it's the spiritual
• 26:45
  application that they abstract from scriptures almost solely.
• 26:50
  With the Hebrew side of my my dad's side of the family,
• 26:53
  Hebrews are very literal when abstracting from scriptures.
• 26:57
  I have a good perspective because I have the Christian
• 27:00
  side and the Hebrew side, and I was raised that way.
• 27:03
  So I understand that the vast majority of Scripture does have
• 27:08
  a literal and spiritual application that can apply to
• 27:11
  our lives. I don't think the two ideas are
• 27:14
  inconsistent. I believe you could partially be
• 27:17
  correct about your Genesis account.
• 27:20
  I just believe you're relying only on the spiritual
• 27:24
  application and not giving enough due to the literal
• 27:28
  application. So the little application would
• 27:32
  be there's a real carnal garden like we know in my backyard that
• 27:35
  has a tree of of knowledge and the tree of life that's in
• 27:38
  there, there was one, but no one no longer.
• 27:41
  Well, the. Ark is.
• 27:42
  Destroyed in the flood, right? Or do you not believe the flood
• 27:45
  narrative? Now is that also?
• 27:46
  True, that was a real arc, right?
• 27:49
  A real. Yes, it was a part.
• 27:51
  Well, I believe it was a literal arc.
• 27:54
  Other people may believe it was a poetic arc.
• 27:56
  I mean, it was destroyed. You said it was destroyed.
• 27:58
  Right now, the tree. Now the arc.
• 28:00
  The ARC is still standing. Well, let's carry that further.
• 28:03
  Well, it was destroyed. As far as it being useful with
• 28:05
  it's, it's important whatever, right?
• 28:07
  Is whatever. Yeah, but.
• 28:09
  It ain't just saw the Ark in Kentucky.
• 28:11
  The tree of the tree of life, right, was in the Garden of Eden
• 28:14
  and if it was a carnal, a flood would have destroyed, definitely
• 28:17
  destroyed that. It would have been gone and but
• 28:19
  yet we see the Book of Revelation at the end of it's
• 28:21
  back again. Right, so.
• 28:24
  How could that be carnal? Well, it is being guarded by
• 28:27
  angels with flaming swords. So is it possible that it was
• 28:30
  taken out of this dimension? Well, seculars would say
• 28:34
  dimension. We know it as the veil being
• 28:36
  lifted. Is it possible that God moved
• 28:39
  the Garden of Eden into the world where the veils not lifted
• 28:45
  to hide it from us? Is it at all?
• 28:49
  Is it at all possible? Is it at all possible that
• 28:53
  there's a combination of these things and not one person or the
• 28:58
  others necessarily right? Well, the I I don't know if it
• 29:03
  means anything to you, but the strong concordance says that
• 29:06
  it's a metaphor. There's also a mentioning Isaiah
• 29:11
  5512 where it says you will go out and joy and be ledge worth
• 29:15
  and peace. The mountains and hills will
• 29:17
  burst into song before you. And now the trees of the field
• 29:21
  will clap their hands and they speak of like songs and all
• 29:25
  that. It's the sound of nature and the
• 29:26
  beautiful harmony that we we tend to get.
• 29:29
  Kind of like a nippy. When he was talking about being
• 29:32
  out at the beach, he felt this peace come over him.
• 29:36
  It's a it's metaphor. Here's the problem.
• 29:41
  I'd say the garden is allegory. You know, a real, a real
• 29:44
  occurrence that has spiritual application to teach us
• 29:46
  something, right? Like for instance scripture says
• 29:49
  to be carnal minded as death spiritual mind is life and
• 29:51
  peace. So the garden being no death yet
• 29:54
  had to be life and peace that had to be spiritual, at least a
• 29:57
  spiritual mind if not a spiritual place.
• 30:00
  And this earth was carnal. So that's death.
• 30:01
  We know this earth, we has death connected to it.
• 30:04
  This carnal earth has death connected to it.
• 30:06
  Everything dies. Did the do you believe that the
• 30:09
  death came into the world because of a tree, or do you
• 30:12
  believe it's mainly the priority is because of the disobedience
• 30:16
  of man against God? I believe it's because of yeah
• 30:20
  exactly because it's carnal right.
• 30:22
  Spiritual says to be carnal minded as death and that's
• 30:24
  that's got definition of how what death is and therefore his
• 30:28
  disobedience from being spiritually connected to God and
• 30:30
  carnal mindedly connected to his own self in the earth is what
• 30:34
  brought death out. Before the garden, I mean you
• 30:36
  probably the Greek Brett, There was no death in the earth,
• 30:39
  right? According to scripture, I mean
• 30:40
  before sitting in the garden at the tree.
• 30:45
  So it had to be spiritual because a scripture says to be
• 30:48
  spiritual. Mind is life.
• 30:50
  It says that that simple in Romans, I mean it's, you know,
• 30:53
  and plus this and plus that. No, to be spiritual mind life.
• 30:55
  Adam had life. Brett.
• 30:57
  He was. He was brought to life.
• 30:59
  Brett might not fully understand where you're coming from, Stump.
• 31:02
  I'm not sure how many of our shows he's caught in there
• 31:05
  entirely. You may want to just take a
• 31:07
  brief moment to explain to him where you're coming from, what
• 31:10
  your belief is, so that he has some context.
• 31:14
  I could. I mean, it's not real necessary
• 31:16
  because I mean, it's pretty simple, you know, like like the
• 31:19
  Guardian story was spiritual, spiritual place with spiritual
• 31:23
  type bodies. Like we're going to happen in
• 31:25
  glory, glorified bodies. And what we see is that when man
• 31:29
  when man sinned we actually see that the what's Efron Genesis
• 31:32
  won this what we call the six day creation with the 7th day
• 31:35
  arrest is actually a carnal creation of what we had as a as
• 31:40
  a perfect spiritual garden like we're going to have in the end.
• 31:43
  And I I know that's not what everybody believes but I I think
• 31:46
  it's it's simply it's Simply put by the the the problem or the
• 31:49
  South that was washed clean returns to wallowing in the
• 31:51
  mire. You know man was brought up from
• 31:53
  the ground. Cleaned up, bid into a glorious
• 31:56
  body and we went back. Right, back to wallowing in the
• 31:59
  Meyer we. Started from the bottom, now
• 32:01
  we're here. We're back to wallowing in the
• 32:03
  Meyer right God's plans to bring us back again, what we should
• 32:07
  be, what our glorified bodies was him.
• 32:09
  That's what we should be. Of course, disclaimer, I
• 32:12
  disagree with that narrative, but that is stumps belief.
• 32:15
  So now you understand where he's coming from, Brett.
• 32:20
  And that's why I think it's hard, it's hard to say like, you
• 32:22
  know, it was carnal. Then God saved the tree.
• 32:25
  Now he made a spiritually took it out this dimension.
• 32:27
  He brought the tree of life back in.
• 32:28
  I mean, that's like like a lot of the stuff that I hear from
• 32:31
  the normal Christian belief that's been going on standard
• 32:33
  Christian belief forever is like grass me for straws when they
• 32:36
  want to answer. You know atheist well first
• 32:39
  first man was made, then then the beast, then the beast, then
• 32:42
  the man in the in the next story.
• 32:43
  But then they grasped with straws.
• 32:44
  Well God forgot what he did with the first beast, so he made some
• 32:47
  more beasts. To me that's just grasps for
• 32:49
  straws and not not really answering the questions of what
• 32:52
  Why was it like this? Why is things happening like
• 32:55
  this? Why didn't why does scripture
• 32:56
  describe things like this? We got to say in the scripture
• 32:59
  God word or it's not right I say it is.
• 33:02
  Here's one thing I would point out Stump, And I think it's
• 33:05
  important. We have had written documents
• 33:10
  with this information passed down from generation to
• 33:13
  generation, from master to Apostle, starting with Moses,
• 33:20
  and from Moses to the time of Jesus.
• 33:23
  The Jews kept very accurate, detailed, not only scrolls, but
• 33:27
  understandings. The Rabbis had perfect
• 33:29
  understandings of what these Old Testament scriptures meant,
• 33:32
  minus they missed Messiah. They did not pick up on that.
• 33:37
  But the narrative never changed. The garden was always a literal
• 33:41
  garden. That was in the 1st century, the
• 33:44
  2nd century, the 3rd century. It's always been the held to.
• 33:48
  The only time it. Changes briefly hold on
• 33:50
  darkness. In the 3rd or 4th century, the
• 33:53
  Gnosticism movement popped up, which is very similar to what
• 33:58
  you ascribe to, and other than that it's periodically shown its
• 34:03
  head over the centuries. But it's never been the hell to
• 34:05
  believe by the masses, and and you have to ask yourself, why
• 34:09
  stump from the time of Moses to now, has this always been the
• 34:13
  main understanding, even from the apostles?
• 34:17
  And on Go ahead darkness, just stump.
• 34:21
  I just want to interject real quick because Proverbs, when you
• 34:25
  say they had perfect understanding of the scriptures
• 34:27
  except for the one main point, right?
• 34:32
  Like if they if they if they had to get any, if they had to get
• 34:36
  anything right, it had to be that right.
• 34:39
  But you're you're you. You literally just said they had
• 34:42
  saying. Amen.
• 34:44
  Hold on, hold on. Yeah.
• 34:45
  Yeah, I told the interest. I have to say that I, uh, that
• 34:49
  I'm in the hold on guys, just so I can try.
• 34:51
  May I, may I say something? If I could finish my if I could
• 34:54
  finish my point just so I can drive this home.
• 34:57
  Uhhuh. Uh huh.
• 35:00
  Right. And and look, I I'm not
• 35:01
  condescending to you. I'm not an asshole to you, so
• 35:04
  let's just keep it that way. Well, I'm not being an asshole
• 35:06
  either. Get with it though, you you
• 35:08
  absolutely are. If if you're interrupting me, I
• 35:11
  consider. That with that, man.
• 35:13
  So, dude, Sure, Brett. Yeah, Brett.
• 35:19
  So my my general point is just literally how can you if they if
• 35:26
  they missed on the biggest thing, the most important thing
• 35:30
  ever, ever done right. Like because Jesus is, it is the
• 35:33
  most important thing. Without Jesus we have there's
• 35:35
  you're done. How do they have a perfect
• 35:38
  understanding and miss that? It's the same way Jesus sat down
• 35:44
  with the Rabbi. Nicodemus, who was the greatest
• 35:47
  rabbi in all of Israel, had all the knowledge.
• 35:49
  Even Jesus recognized that. And still he missed the Messiah
• 35:53
  and couldn't grasp being baptized in the Spirit or being
• 35:56
  born again. So you can have perfect
• 35:59
  understanding and be a great mind in the the movement of
• 36:05
  Judaism or Christianity and you can still miss something.
• 36:08
  And we know that that's accurate because Jesus Christ himself
• 36:10
  said that the great rabbis missed this.
• 36:14
  One last question. And then?
• 36:15
  And then I'll let you guys have it back.
• 36:18
  If they did have perfect understanding, could you be
• 36:21
  wrong about the Jesus and they be right?
• 36:23
  Could they have not missed it? Could they have been correct
• 36:25
  that he's not the Messiah? No.
• 36:32
  Do you want to know why? No, because that says to me.
• 36:36
  That drives home the point, right that that I don't think.
• 36:41
  Well, with me why that's an unfair conclusion.
• 36:44
  I'll go ahead and tell you why. The reason why is because Yeshua
• 36:47
  Messiah Jesus Christ. Is the only candidate who was
• 36:52
  born at the right time and fulfilled all of the prophecies.
• 36:57
  If Jesus Christ wasn't the Messiah, the Messiah's not
• 37:01
  coming. He missed the time he was
• 37:04
  supposed to come. The Jews were looking for the
• 37:06
  Messiah. When Jesus came on the the the
• 37:08
  scene, they just didn't accept him because they thought he was
• 37:12
  going to be a conquering warrior to take over Rome.
• 37:15
  And Jesus came the first time as a humble servant.
• 37:17
  They didn't like that. The Jews had been second class
• 37:21
  citizens to Rome for a very long time.
• 37:24
  They wanted liberation physically, not spiritually.
• 37:27
  So that's why they rejected the Messiah.
• 37:29
  That's why they missed him in the Old Testament.
• 37:32
  And I would, I would and This is why I didn't want to get into
• 37:35
  that because I would say that's your, that's your take on it,
• 37:38
  right. Like, and then everybody on this
• 37:39
  panel is probably going to have a different take on that.
• 37:42
  And and that's not something I was really interested in because
• 37:44
  to me it's like if if you're a woodworker, which I am, and and
• 37:50
  I miss the joint that holds the house together, it's hard to say
• 37:54
  this is a master woodworker that misses that.
• 37:57
  One that, that that misses the house joint, right.
• 37:59
  Like if there's a single joint that holds up the house and the
• 38:02
  master woodworker misses it, I'm going to say either two things.
• 38:05
  One, they're not a master woodworker, right.
• 38:08
  Or two, he didn't miss that joint and something else had to
• 38:12
  happen or he did it for a reason.
• 38:14
  So that's that's me. And that's kind of what you do
• 38:16
  if you if you say they had perfect understanding, right?
• 38:20
  I wasn't criticizing you particularly, just if they had
• 38:23
  perfect understanding, something's going on for them to
• 38:26
  miss the Messiah, right? Like that that it's hard for me.
• 38:29
  I just explained why they missed the Messiah.
• 38:31
  They wanted to miss him, right? But that doesn't do anything for
• 38:34
  me because it goes back to my point.
• 38:35
  Then they didn't have perfect understanding because it
• 38:37
  doesn't, regardless of them. For you doesn't not make it
• 38:40
  accurate. I'm sorry, Proverbs.
• 38:41
  What I meant to say was the reason that it doesn't do
• 38:44
  anything for me is because the way my mind works, regardless of
• 38:48
  their motivation or the desire that they have, it has it.
• 38:54
  It all has to do with perfect understanding.
• 38:56
  If they wanted to miss it, then again, they're not.
• 38:58
  They don't have perfect understanding because they had a
• 39:00
  desire that made them imperfect. Well, you know, the modern day
• 39:04
  Jews are our Jewish brothers. They're making the same exact
• 39:08
  mistake the rabbis were making when Jesus was here.
• 39:12
  They still don't recognize their Messiah.
• 39:14
  They keep all the law. They're so obedient.
• 39:17
  They do all the things that would make God happy, except
• 39:21
  they're still going to go to hell if they don't accept their
• 39:23
  savior. So they have this perfect
• 39:27
  understanding of the Old Testament, again, just like the
• 39:29
  rabbis of Jesus's time. But they're missing Jesus.
• 39:33
  And if you miss Jesus, you miss it all, even though they're
• 39:36
  still accurate on all the other things they do to please God.
• 39:45
  All right, so Proverbs, you mind if I share something with you?
• 39:48
  Absolutely. And after you Brett will go to
• 39:51
  stump and then if Dustin Doom or Ryan want to chime in, they also
• 39:56
  can take it away. Brett.
• 39:57
  Well, first of all, I want to say I agree with you in your
• 40:00
  original statement on what you were saying about the metaphor
• 40:03
  and poetry of this. There's not just the trees
• 40:06
  clapping, according to the Bible.
• 40:08
  It also says in Psalms 98 eight, let the rivers clap their hands,
• 40:14
  but the hills sing for joy together.
• 40:17
  Now, I don't know if somebody's going to argue that the
• 40:19
  mountains have a mouth and began singing, you know, mermaid songs
• 40:23
  or the river actually has physical hands, but I think it's
• 40:26
  pretty clear that this is metaphor.
• 40:28
  So I agree with your original statement.
• 40:31
  It's poetry. And it's clearly poetry.
• 40:37
  What's the poetry, The gardening or just the The mountains
• 40:40
  Clapping and singing and trees and.
• 40:41
  Mountains clapping and singing, the rivers having physical hands
• 40:45
  clapping as well. I mean, come on, it's a
• 40:48
  metaphor. It's poetry.
• 40:49
  Oh, no doubt. No doubt about.
• 40:50
  That at least if a tree you got like arms, so I guess they could
• 40:55
  slap like this a windy day. Man, if that was true, I would
• 41:02
  just go out to a couple pine trees and start a choir.
• 41:06
  I'd get them going with the rhythm section, just a nice slow
• 41:09
  clap, and then I'd really build up to the drop.
• 41:11
  You guys know what I mean. Sounds like a plan.
• 41:19
  All right, Captain, I'm going to let you take your point now.
• 41:24
  For you to for you to say that the Jews kept meticulous records
• 41:27
  and they're right and they know everything and it's over.
• 41:30
  It was a good point that, well, think what I was going to make
• 41:33
  before doctors came in was that in fact they didn't because they
• 41:37
  didn't. They missed a lot of things.
• 41:38
  In fact, Schrifer says, you've forgotten my savages to the to
• 41:42
  the people of Israel. Also, you'd have to deny that
• 41:46
  there's anything in scripture that hasn't been revealed.
• 41:48
  In fact, in the book of Daniel, he tells them close the books
• 41:51
  because it's not for the time, it's for the time of the end.
• 41:54
  It's not for now. So you'd have to believe that
• 41:56
  everything's already settled. God's word is dead.
• 41:58
  God's word is not dead. God's word is alive.
• 42:00
  Jesus Christ is God's word. Jesus Christ is alive.
• 42:02
  So for you to say it's all settled and done, you know they
• 42:05
  believe this all along. If you come along and try to
• 42:07
  change it, you're nastic. No, God's word is alive.
• 42:12
  Yeah, except the issue with that stump is the same word they use
• 42:15
  forever. There is the word they use with
• 42:20
  areas, like with Moses, and he'll say you're going to do
• 42:24
  this forever. It's the same word.
• 42:26
  It doesn't change. What happened?
• 42:29
  What I missed that forever? What?
• 42:30
  What is that connecting to? What reiterate your point?
• 42:36
  Well I made a couple points but the main point I was trying to
• 42:40
  say is that scriptures not closed.
• 42:42
  It's not closed and not dead. It's not over.
• 42:45
  Daniel was told in the book of Daniel that closed the books
• 42:49
  until the time to end. It's not ready when he heard the
• 42:51
  7th Thunder voices. Do not reveal this now.
• 42:53
  It's not it's not the time to put this to be revealed.
• 42:56
  And the book Revelation in fact is actually called the
• 42:58
  revelation of Jesus Christ. The revelation of God's word and
• 43:01
  which is the last chapters of the Bible, is the last chapter
• 43:04
  of the Bible. And there's still things to be
• 43:06
  revealed for to say, well, the the Church fathers understood
• 43:09
  that, you know, God made animals and then he forgot where he put
• 43:14
  them, and then he he made some more animals to show.
• 43:17
  Adam what? His power to make these animals,
• 43:20
  You know, that's grasping for straws.
• 43:22
  And this is the typical Christian understanding of what
• 43:24
  happened. The differences in the garden
• 43:26
  and the six day creation. They grass with straws.
• 43:29
  And to me, it doesn't always sound like what?
• 43:32
  But I mean, you know, I'm just saying, well, we should stick
• 43:37
  with Flat Earth. Well, and that's an issue with
• 43:40
  Flat Earth too, because the consistencies are all over the
• 43:44
  place. Little, no consistency, the
• 43:48
  shapes of the earth all vary. Some have pillars, some don't,
• 43:52
  some have this ring barrier around it, some don't, and then
• 43:55
  some have the sun spinning around like on Brett's screen,
• 43:58
  but others have it going all the way around like you would expect
• 44:03
  it to a globe earth. So I mean, they don't even have
• 44:06
  like one single narrative that the mainstream follows.
• 44:11
  Yeah. They believe that there's some
• 44:13
  kind of like barrier of ice around the Earth and that that
• 44:17
  little tiny yellow thing is supposed to be our sun, yet it
• 44:21
  manages to keep the entire Earth heated so we don't freeze to
• 44:25
  death. I mean there's just so many
• 44:26
  things that impacts the universe and solar system.
• 44:29
  Their ideas. I also, I want to apologize,
• 44:33
  Proverbs. I did get a little cranky
• 44:35
  earlier there. I've been kind of focused on
• 44:37
  whenever we get a flat earther. I didn't know we were going to
• 44:40
  get into conversations about mountains singing and rivers
• 44:44
  clapping their hands and, you know, seals barking and all that
• 44:47
  stuff. I apologize for the attitude.
• 44:52
  Hey, it's all good, man. We all get heated sometimes,
• 44:54
  right? Dustin, I don't know what you're
• 44:58
  talking about. But if we were to go to Bruce
• 45:01
  and ask Bruce if he knew what we were talking about, do you think
• 45:04
  maybe Bruce would be able to give us some examples?
• 45:07
  I. Can't explain the inner workings
• 45:09
  of another person's mind. You know what though, Dustin?
• 45:14
  I don't think you've got an argument with anyone on the
• 45:17
  panel right now, though. That's impressive.
• 45:20
  Nope, I haven't gone into an argument.
• 45:22
  Then again, Claude's not here. I don't even think clause in the
• 45:26
  comments yet, but I'm hoping he shows up.
• 45:29
  Our buddy from Vida La France. I'm.
• 45:32
  Not sure that he's actually from France.
• 45:34
  I want to see some proof. Someone else told me he's
• 45:37
  Australian. Maybe he's not French, but why
• 45:42
  in the world anyone would want to pretend that they were French
• 45:45
  or Canadian? Blows my mind.
• 45:49
  Good question. I don't know.
• 45:52
  Like I'm telling people I'm from Great Britain, I'm telling
• 45:54
  people I'm from Australia, I'm not going with France.
• 45:59
  I'd take it. Assembly of God theists because
• 46:03
  they're being awfully sarcastic out there.
• 46:05
  They said if you have enough faith you had the mountains
• 46:08
  jumping to the sea. Well if you're a non believer
• 46:11
  you believe in plate tectonics don't you?
• 46:16
  I'm hateful, ain't I? Well, you know what?
• 46:21
  They did have a like little whimsical spin on the Assembly
• 46:25
  of God there, which actually kind of inappropriate to
• 46:29
  assembly. Hey, would it be would it be
• 46:32
  reasonable to point out that there are millions of Christians
• 46:37
  that believe or that hold plate tectonics to just be a fact of
• 46:41
  the matter of the world? Right.
• 46:42
  There are millions of Christians out there that hold evolution to
• 46:45
  be a fact. The earth old.
• 46:47
  All of this the the minority position is.
• 46:51
  Someone that doesn't hold any of that, right?
• 46:53
  Like so if you talk to a Young Earth Creationist, you're the
• 46:56
  minority. Not only overall, like of humans
• 46:59
  on the planet, but you're also the minority in your own belief
• 47:02
  system. I'm not sure that that's
• 47:05
  accurate. However, if it is accurate,
• 47:08
  maybe it is doesn't bother me. Well, there's one thing they
• 47:13
  don't like to put out there in the public.
• 47:15
  There are thousands of scientists out there that do not
• 47:18
  accept evolution, and that's something that's being talked
• 47:21
  about. But they've had the basically
• 47:23
  come out on YouTube and some of these different videos because
• 47:26
  the mainstream media doesn't want to put them out there.
• 47:29
  There's not as many, I haven't met a very many Christians who
• 47:33
  actually go along with evolution.
• 47:35
  And if they do say they believe in it, then that's good to get
• 47:38
  into a discussion with them. You find out very quickly that
• 47:41
  they don't really understand what the claim is.
• 47:44
  They think it's microevolution, some adaptation.
• 47:48
  But we're talking the arguments. Did we come from monkeys?
• 47:53
  Did we come from ancient rats? Did we come from that dragon
• 47:56
  lizard thing he had on his shoulder just a while ago?
• 47:59
  That's where Shit. So it's getting weird.
• 48:00
  Sorry for the language. Yeah, I think darkness.
• 48:09
  I'm sorry, I might, I'm in. There it goes.
• 48:07
  Let me put you back in the stream all.
• 48:10
  I'm still working in the shop, so I might, yeah.
• 48:14
  Brett, I I think that's like so, so sure but that's not really.
• 48:18
  So addressing the scientists that don't believe in evolution,
• 48:21
  just my overarching point is like when you talk about
• 48:24
  Christianity as a whole, you know, the Catholic Church came
• 48:27
  out and accepted and you may very well not consider Catholic
• 48:30
  Christian, but the Catholic Church came out and you know,
• 48:34
  therefore evolution, they hold it to be a fact.
• 48:37
  They're just many people that believe all sorts of things.
• 48:39
  And with God, you know, you can believe pretty much whatever you
• 48:43
  want. You can hold.
• 48:45
  I think it's it's easy to hold. Any of the positions, right.
• 48:48
  Because you guys hold certain positions that differ from one
• 48:52
  another pretty comfortably. But when you when you do kind of
• 48:57
  like make that shot across the bow of well, the secularists
• 49:01
  believe X, I, I think you're gonna find that they're probably
• 49:05
  more of your own brothers agree with those secularists.
• 49:09
  So that's the only reason I wanted to point that out is
• 49:12
  because it's not just like, right?
• 49:13
  Like the. The secularist or the atheist or
• 49:16
  the agnostics that hold these, It's it's the the majority of
• 49:19
  Christians as well. Well, I think I'm in the same
• 49:22
  boat with Mr. Proverbs Guy on this.
• 49:25
  If there is a theist or an atheist or whatever the person's
• 49:29
  view is, if they, if they think they come from a slug in a pond,
• 49:33
  I'm more than happy to have a conversation no matter what they
• 49:36
  throw behind it. So I I haven't ran into very
• 49:39
  many theists who go along with that.
• 49:42
  Well, Brett, I love your argument for the snot on the
• 49:44
  Rock too. I love when the atheist is
• 49:47
  willing to take you up on the argument over the snot on the
• 49:49
  Rock. I hear you there and as far as
• 49:54
  the Catholic Church goes, I am. I do believe that a majority of
• 49:58
  them do believe in God and they are Christian, that a lot of
• 50:02
  them are going to be able to see the afterlife and all this.
• 50:05
  But I mean, let's face it, they haven't had a a very good record
• 50:09
  one they've been kissing on the Quran and except in all these
• 50:13
  different gods of other religions and all this, and I
• 50:15
  think that's like in the commandments don't do that.
• 50:19
  But that is something the Catholics have gotten themselves
• 50:21
  into. No hatred for them, though.
• 50:26
  Yeah, interesting arguments. I mean, anytime I've spoken with
• 50:30
  a Catholic and I ask them before I know they're Catholic, I'm
• 50:34
  like, hey, are you Christian or do you believe in Jesus?
• 50:37
  They won't say they're Christian.
• 50:38
  They'll say they're Catholic. See, I don't understand this.
• 50:43
  Like a take Assembly of God. Here he's laughing about the
• 50:46
  Bible saying, oh, what about magical dirt?
• 50:49
  Assembly of God? If you're a skeptic, don't you
• 50:51
  believe you come from the ground?
• 50:53
  Don't you believe you evolved from some kind of what is it
• 50:56
  that Mr. Kent says, a rock? Or is that Matt Powell's thing?
• 51:00
  Yeah, it's the radioactive soup. So he comes from a magic rock,
• 51:05
  is what he's telling us. Spontaneous generation, right?
• 51:10
  I mean, the beliefs are very similar.
• 51:12
  I think the big difference is we we give the credit to the
• 51:16
  creator and evolutionists give credit to time.
• 51:20
  Really, I would say that's. A defining factor, but darkness,
• 51:26
  doom. Do you guys agree with that or
• 51:28
  no? Yeah, that's a good, good way to
• 51:30
  summarize it. Darkness.
• 51:34
  Do you disagree with it? Hold on, that compressors back
• 51:38
  on. I'll pop back on in just a
• 51:39
  second. Hey, no problem, brother.
• 51:41
  Yeah, you had another point, Brett.
• 51:43
  Well, you are right, Proverbs. What said the story is a lot the
• 51:47
  same. The only difference is we're
• 51:49
  saying that an intelligent, sentient life form had something
• 51:53
  to do with our existence and got the ball rolling.
• 51:56
  As Kiss would say, God made rock'n'roll for us.
• 51:59
  The atheist is telling us, Oh no rocks, just get up and start
• 52:03
  walking around without no kind of help whatsoever.
• 52:06
  Now folks, that's magic. Well, that's the interesting
• 52:11
  point. Christians admit that we believe
• 52:14
  in miracles, we believe in the supernatural, and not only do we
• 52:17
  believe in it, but we embrace it.
• 52:19
  Atheists. I think, to be fair, they do.
• 52:23
  Actually, they also. Have to rely on miracles in the
• 52:30
  supernatural. But they won't call it
• 52:32
  supernatural because with billions of years it kind of
• 52:35
  makes it seem less supernatural. If you expand it down to 6000
• 52:39
  years, it's like, wow, that's a big difference.
• 52:42
  But stretch it out to 4.6 billion years and suddenly
• 52:45
  something miraculous looks a little less miraculous because
• 52:48
  you super stretched it. Do you remember?
• 52:51
  Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
• 52:53
  Yeah, I think. I think lightning, like, struck
• 52:57
  something and brought it to life, like it's like evolved
• 53:02
  into a bunch of different animals.
• 53:05
  Yeah, I've heard the I've heard. That you're new with these new
• 53:11
  measurements they have with the new distance and and like the
• 53:15
  supposed age increase, they have a serious issue because they're
• 53:22
  saying that. Matter can't travel faster than
• 53:25
  the speed of light, but then they're going to have the same
• 53:29
  issue with even the time increase of the original
• 53:32
  explosion. It's it's opened a whole new
• 53:38
  bucket of worms. May I interrupt for a second
• 53:43
  guys? I think the reason that I've
• 53:44
  never found it may be interesting or compelling.
• 53:49
  It's not the right word. But if I asked any of you guys.
• 53:53
  If you found out tomorrow the Earth was old, wouldn't it be
• 53:59
  fairly easy to hold a an old Earth Creationist point of view?
• 54:06
  So I I should probably respond, and I might get chewed darned
• 54:09
  for this, but I'm not a Young Earth Creationist.
• 54:12
  I have a lot of friends are that are, and they make some very
• 54:16
  good arguments and all that, but I just simply haven't gotten to
• 54:19
  the point where I believe the Earth is under 10,000 years old.
• 54:22
  Now I put myself out there. Go ahead and chew on me, folks.
• 54:27
  Before you guys chew on Brett, that's my literally like thank
• 54:31
  you Brett for for for for saying that because that's that's kind
• 54:34
  of. That is the point for me.
• 54:36
  Why it's not like a like why I don't care about arguing for the
• 54:40
  certain points of whether evolution's a fact with the
• 54:43
  Christian or not. Because it in my eyes you can
• 54:46
  hold an old earth and you and there are people that hold old
• 54:49
  earth and then there are people that actually hold old earth
• 54:52
  evolution micro. And then there are people that
• 54:54
  hold old earth evolution micro and macro and just it's God
• 54:58
  created by using evolution. And so for me it's that's not
• 55:01
  really the issue that's gonna. Make or break me or it's nor
• 55:05
  it's gonna make or break you cuz Proverbs, what's the answer for
• 55:09
  you if you found out tomorrow something convinced you and you
• 55:12
  said man it is old right? Like it's gonna be much right
• 55:17
  like even if you. I'm sorry that's just me
• 55:19
  rambling. What do you got?
• 55:21
  Okay. So the only thing that would
• 55:23
  convince me of an old created Earth would have to be some sort
• 55:28
  of. Biblical book that was found
• 55:31
  with a plethora of other ancient scrolls that we dug up like the
• 55:36
  Dead Sea Scroll collection that explained it because my
• 55:39
  calculations and I'm very well studied in the word is the earth
• 55:44
  is no more than 6007 to 900 years old.
• 55:51
  So it would have to be pretty. Damning evidence?
• 55:53
  Before you guys go down that because I think that's where
• 55:56
  it's going to go. Pretty quick with at least you
• 55:59
  and Brett. It'd be an interesting
• 56:00
  discussion why you differ biblically on that.
• 56:03
  If tomorrow you believe the the earth was old, does that affect
• 56:08
  the God believe for you at all? Do you immediately like ditch
• 56:11
  Jesus because you believe the earth is old?
• 56:12
  Are you able to incorporate the Jesus into that?
• 56:16
  I As far as me and Proverbs, I believe that God actually
• 56:21
  created a man and a woman. And this is how things went
• 56:24
  Biblically. It's the time and the age I have
• 56:27
  an issue with. It's trying to convince me I
• 56:30
  come from an ancient rat that was walking around during
• 56:33
  meteorites and somehow existed while the earth was 200,000
• 56:38
  years under cloud and radiation. That concerns me all.
• 56:41
  That doesn't make sense, but I I believe.
• 56:44
  In the cloud created everything, go ahead.
• 56:48
  Can I ask you this? So the earth can be millions of
• 56:52
  years old. Do you think maybe mankind was
• 56:55
  made 10,000 years ago or less? I really don't know.
• 57:03
  On that there has been some information that's come out.
• 57:06
  I've seen a lot of Christians posting videos of the flesh of
• 57:10
  dinosaurs and I'm curious how that could have possibly existed
• 57:13
  if the earth was as old as scientists claim there is.
• 57:18
  There is some questioning I have on that.
• 57:25
  So in order to well then for a certain perspective, give or
• 57:32
  take, you would maybe say that mankind would have found
• 57:36
  creation anywhere from 6 to 10,000 years ago.
• 57:42
  Don't know. Oh, OK.
• 57:50
  Brett, what? What makes you think the Earth
• 57:52
  is old versus young? Well, to be honest with you, and
• 57:57
  I've said this to Proverbs, I have only been a theist for
• 58:00
  about five or six years. And I would probably put forth
• 58:04
  the idea that I've have been, like most people, indoctrinated
• 58:07
  into the idea that the Earth is much older.
• 58:11
  That's why whenever I hear people say the Earth is younger,
• 58:14
  I'm open minded. I'm listening.
• 58:16
  I'm not going to sit there and say they're absolutely wrong,
• 58:19
  but at this point I haven't heard sufficient.
• 58:22
  The only argument I've heard people give for a young earth is
• 58:25
  they try to count up some of the names and the genology of the
• 58:28
  Bible, but even that doesn't seem like it.
• 58:31
  It works out the way they want and the Bible doesn't directly
• 58:35
  come out with an age of the earth unless you guys know a
• 58:42
  number in the Bible that I haven't read.
• 58:45
  What I mean in my calculation, the most accurate numbers 6700
• 58:51
  to 900 years old. And an interesting point I would
• 58:54
  make is that it took God 6000 or I'm sorry, six days to create
• 58:59
  the world and then he rested on the 7th day.
• 59:02
  And we know that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, and we know His
• 59:07
  millennial Kingdom is going to be for 1000 years and His
• 59:11
  Kingdom is going to be a Kingdom of peace and rest.
• 59:15
  And the Sabbath is a day of peace and rest.
• 59:17
  So I believe the beginning of his millennial Kingdom is going
• 59:21
  to be the beginning of the 7000 year.
• 59:26
  Yeah, I've heard you talk about that, Proverbs, if you guys
• 59:30
  don't mind, I wouldn't mind throwing some questions at you
• 59:32
  and see where you go with it. Do you believe that the
• 59:35
  beginning of the universe? I'm sure all of us believe that
• 59:38
  the universe had a beginning because God did so.
• 59:41
  But do you believe that the universe is also less than
• 59:44
  10,000 years old, all the planets in it?
• 59:51
  Yes, because it in the in the six days of creation it talks
• 59:54
  about the rest of the universe as well as our Earth talks about
• 1:00:00
  the stars and the planets and stuff.
• 1:00:05
  All right. How do you feel about the Fermi
• 1:00:08
  Paradox? I believe you're going to have
• 1:00:13
  to explain the Fermi Paradox, Brett.
• 1:00:16
  Now this is one of those topics that is not only a little funky
• 1:00:19
  on religious folks, but it definitely hits hard on atheists
• 1:00:23
  who are into the concept of evolution.
• 1:00:25
  If the universe where is is aged as it is, why is it that we have
• 1:00:33
  not seen any kind of other life forms or any evolution happen on
• 1:00:37
  any other planet? Yeah, we have all these planets
• 1:00:40
  in our solar system and not one single one has shown any
• 1:00:45
  potential whatsoever for life. That's the Fermi Paradox.
• 1:00:50
  That now, yeah, if their beliefs are true, the universe should be
• 1:00:54
  absolutely teeming with life all over it everywhere.
• 1:00:59
  If life evolved here, it should have evolved everywhere.
• 1:01:03
  Exactly. And that's one of the reasons
• 1:01:06
  why I'm so open minded when I hear guys like Proverbs say that
• 1:01:10
  he believes the Earth is actually younger.
• 1:01:12
  So I'm very openminded about it. It doesn't make sense for me
• 1:01:16
  that if the universe is billions or trillions or whatever someone
• 1:01:20
  wants to throw on it to a Carl Sagan imitation, why we don't
• 1:01:23
  see any other life forms. And if the Earth is as old as it
• 1:01:27
  is, I would ask the question of why are we not tripping over the
• 1:01:30
  bones of these creatures? There should be more corpses of
• 1:01:33
  dinosaurs and all that laying around, surely?
• 1:01:37
  So I do question it. Clocks can only tell you how
• 1:01:42
  long it's been since, right? Like so when you're looking at
• 1:01:47
  the rings of Saturn, for example, it can only tell you a
• 1:01:51
  general idea how long it's been since there was a moon there,
• 1:01:56
  and how long there was before there was a catastrophe that
• 1:01:59
  broke it up. And then it became rings, right?
• 1:02:03
  So. If you're looking at the
• 1:02:06
  universe, we have a moon that tells us how much longer we have
• 1:02:12
  generally based on the decay of its orbit, before it's going to
• 1:02:16
  leave orbit. And then we're going to end up
• 1:02:19
  with the shift in our our seasons and our tilt of the
• 1:02:23
  access. I mean, how can it be billions?
• 1:02:29
  Of years old. It just doesn't make sense.
• 1:02:36
  Yeah. Only it's like the universe is
• 1:02:42
  so big and it's like, I think it's older than like a billion
• 1:02:48
  years. I don't know.
• 1:02:51
  I think it's like I don't know the number.
• 1:02:54
  I think the number now is 4.6. However, I've heard other
• 1:02:58
  atheists say that they think in the near future they're going to
• 1:03:01
  extend that a little bit closer to like 10 billion.
• 1:03:05
  Because I think they ran out of time again.
• 1:03:08
  Yeah, you're right about that, Proverbs.
• 1:03:10
  It gets worse than that. They're actually extending the
• 1:03:13
  universe for another couple billion years as well.
• 1:03:16
  They need more time in order for the magic of the evolution to
• 1:03:20
  work. Well.
• 1:03:22
  Would there be? Would there be any way that you
• 1:03:25
  could be convinced that perhaps it's not?
• 1:03:27
  We need more time for the magic of the universe to work, but we
• 1:03:32
  keep learning. We keep searching.
• 1:03:34
  And we keep finding new things that change information for us
• 1:03:39
  that say, hey, it is older than we thought or it is different
• 1:03:43
  than we thought. That's a way of saying we were
• 1:03:47
  wrong, but we were right still. Like, I know you'll never be
• 1:03:51
  wrong with that perception. Hold on.
• 1:03:52
  Perception. No, no, absolutely not.
• 1:03:55
  That's not, that's saying that this is the best model we have.
• 1:03:59
  All of this is working, but we found we found there's a
• 1:04:03
  discrepancy. So I don't think we're saying
• 1:04:07
  because we're changing our mind, but we're going to hold to this,
• 1:04:11
  we hold to this because that's the best model we have out
• 1:04:15
  there, right? And again, I I'm not the biggest
• 1:04:17
  science guy. I just mean in the sense of like
• 1:04:20
  to me, science scientists change their minds because new
• 1:04:25
  information comes into play that changes whatever model they're
• 1:04:28
  working with, right. And.
• 1:04:33
  I'm just asking you all if you would.
• 1:04:35
  Do you think maybe it would be fair to stop teaching this stuff
• 1:04:38
  to our children until they do make it certain?
• 1:04:42
  Why would So let's say hypothetically, right?
• 1:04:46
  Let's just. You were about to ask why.
• 1:04:48
  The reason why is because like every three generations were
• 1:04:51
  teaching false information. No, I wasn't gonna.
• 1:04:53
  No, I'm sorry. I didn't mean I didn't.
• 1:04:56
  Mean I may have make you think. Applied that.
• 1:04:58
  Thank you. Sorry so.
• 1:05:01
  What I would say is if we have the best model right, the only
• 1:05:04
  way we're going to teach the children that are going to be
• 1:05:08
  the future scientists, right? Because whether you're right or
• 1:05:11
  I'm right or they're right or whoever is right, simple fact of
• 1:05:13
  the matter is generation after generation replaces us.
• 1:05:16
  So the best thing we can do in my opinion is as a woodworker,
• 1:05:21
  if I had children, I could teach them what I know.
• 1:05:26
  Now, that's not to say and we see this happen all the time,
• 1:05:29
  right? Kids, these kids that we're
• 1:05:32
  teaching the best model to, they come up and they're the ones
• 1:05:35
  finding out, hey, you guys got this right, this right.
• 1:05:39
  But this is not right. And the scientist goes, yes,
• 1:05:42
  that's right. We can't figure this out.
• 1:05:44
  And that new generation comes and they fixes it and they find
• 1:05:47
  not fix it, But they they they fix problems.
• 1:05:51
  They find new things out. This is we've seen this
• 1:05:53
  progression. Through the history of time,
• 1:05:55
  right? Like new generations come in and
• 1:05:57
  are able to solve problems that we may not have the answers to
• 1:06:01
  now. And if we didn't teach them
• 1:06:02
  anything right then, then we wouldn't progress.
• 1:06:05
  There'd be, we wouldn't Further, as a society, whether you're
• 1:06:08
  right or I'm right or or anyone's right, if we just stop
• 1:06:11
  teaching kids until we had the ultimate answer, we wouldn't be
• 1:06:15
  able to teach them anything. Especially we wouldn't be.
• 1:06:18
  I'm sorry, go ahead. Sorry, I I don't really think
• 1:06:20
  society would be heard. Or the education children.
• 1:06:24
  If we were to suddenly tell them what?
• 1:06:26
  That they're not monkeys and that they didn't come from
• 1:06:28
  lizard monsters and all this from a or a slug got hit by
• 1:06:32
  lightning in a pond or something.
• 1:06:34
  I don't think that's not. Go ahead.
• 1:06:37
  No, Brett, you go. You go ahead.
• 1:06:38
  I just wanted to interject because is that what you meant,
• 1:06:41
  Proverbs? Just that because when we talk
• 1:06:43
  about evolution, we talk when you talk about like, hey, we're
• 1:06:46
  gonna stop teaching kids this when I hear that, you've got to
• 1:06:49
  stop teaching them all science, right?
• 1:06:52
  Like you have to teach them. Not to look at the because
• 1:06:56
  that's because the way the way that we.
• 1:06:58
  What I mean, but I would wanna know where you drew the line
• 1:07:01
  between science and evolution. We would have to define a line
• 1:07:05
  somewhere, right? But that I would say the line is
• 1:07:08
  with micro evolution. No, no science to me it's just
• 1:07:12
  the way that we the way the way that we see that.
• 1:07:16
  Like it's the way that we see the world around us.
• 1:07:19
  It's the way that we. So for me science is as simple
• 1:07:22
  as. We have rock formations.
• 1:07:24
  We want to figure out how old those rock formations are.
• 1:07:26
  Scientists are studying that. They're looking at rock.
• 1:07:28
  Other rocks. They're looking the same thing.
• 1:07:31
  I I forget what the. But science is just the way that
• 1:07:35
  we look and interpret the reality that we live in, right?
• 1:07:37
  The world that we live in with what's around us, like what's in
• 1:07:40
  the dirt, what makes the car work, All of these different
• 1:07:43
  things and for me. I'm happy to accept evolution,
• 1:07:48
  whatever the latest or the best model that they have out there,
• 1:07:51
  because I'm not a scientist and it doesn't.
• 1:07:54
  I don't have a dog in that fight, right?
• 1:07:56
  Like I've never studied evolution.
• 1:07:57
  It doesn't. I don't have a problem thinking
• 1:07:59
  the universe is millions of years old, billions of years
• 1:08:02
  old. Sorry, I don't have a problem.
• 1:08:04
  I think where we disagree is how we view science.
• 1:08:10
  Because we view science as an explanation for how God did it
• 1:08:14
  and how God still continues to do it.
• 1:08:17
  And I feel like if atheists are very honest with themselves,
• 1:08:22
  they'll say they they're just seeking truth.
• 1:08:24
  But I think evolution is a way to manipulate science, to try to
• 1:08:31
  find a way that it couldn't have been God to create it.
• 1:08:35
  So I think the problem is is is for me is here.
• 1:08:39
  So yes, we absolutely disagree with what science is because I
• 1:08:43
  don't think science is explaining how God did it.
• 1:08:47
  But if you say that science is explaining how God did it, it
• 1:08:51
  seems to me that you're starting with God.
• 1:08:53
  And that's problematic because excuse me, I've been drilling
• 1:08:58
  holes in the dustin's getting coming.
• 1:09:02
  Do you. Yeah, it seems to me that
• 1:09:06
  you're. You're starting with that and
• 1:09:08
  coming instead of coming to the conclusion that God exists
• 1:09:11
  because of XY&Z, you seem to say, Oh well, right.
• 1:09:13
  When we look at the world we're trying to we're trying to figure
• 1:09:16
  out how God did it. And I'm using this book to
• 1:09:19
  figure out how I I I comport the reality.
• 1:09:22
  I live in with this book as well.
• 1:09:24
  That's problematic to me, Darkness.
• 1:09:26
  You mind if I ask you if a atheists were to come in here
• 1:09:30
  right now and say that they are fully convinced that evolution
• 1:09:34
  is real, that there's no need for God?
• 1:09:37
  They believe except I abiogenesis into evolution, the
• 1:09:41
  transitions and all that. And then they tell you, well, I
• 1:09:45
  don't really study it. I don't really care enough to
• 1:09:48
  even put a dog in the fight, but I accept it because some popular
• 1:09:52
  scientists said so on the TV set.
• 1:09:54
  What would you say to somebody like that, do you really think?
• 1:09:57
  I said So a person like that should be in control over
• 1:10:00
  educating children when they themselves don't even know what
• 1:10:03
  they're teaching. Well, the science is updated.
• 1:10:12
  It's like the Bible is just an old book.
• 1:10:16
  The first part of what you said to me, Brett, was, was not the
• 1:10:20
  position that I actually hold. What the position that I hold is
• 1:10:23
  what I've learned about evolution I'm comfortable with,
• 1:10:26
  right? Like so I'm comfortable with
• 1:10:29
  someone else doing that work, the same way I'm comfortable
• 1:10:31
  with the guys at Ford Motor Company.
• 1:10:34
  Make making sure my car runs right.
• 1:10:36
  Like making sure the truck runs or making sure the exterior
• 1:10:39
  runs. I'm comfortable with that.
• 1:10:40
  Like, I know that I know the car works.
• 1:10:42
  I don't know. I don't have to know that.
• 1:10:45
  But when I say I don't have a dog in this fight, there's
• 1:10:48
  nothing for me that pushes back against the scientific community
• 1:10:53
  to the point that I say, hey man, they've got this wrong,
• 1:10:56
  right? Whereas you.
• 1:10:59
  And and I don't think can I ask you.
• 1:11:00
  Something darkness. Yeah, go ahead.
• 1:11:03
  I know you don't like these conversations, but this isn't a
• 1:11:06
  gotcha. I really am just curious what
• 1:11:09
  your explanation of The Big Bang is.
• 1:11:16
  I mean, I'll even tell you why I'm asking.
• 1:11:18
  The reason I'm asking is because a large portion of the atheist
• 1:11:23
  community who ascribe to evolution and.
• 1:11:27
  The current consensus in the scientific community for the
• 1:11:29
  explanation of the universe. They believe that The Big Bang
• 1:11:32
  was the origins, the starting point of the universe.
• 1:11:36
  Others believe the universe is eternal and The Big Bang was
• 1:11:40
  simply the rapid expansion of that universe.
• 1:11:43
  That's why I'm asking you. Yeah, we we talked about this
• 1:11:47
  very briefly the other night. I haven't really looked into it
• 1:11:51
  and if I did look into it and I found out it was one way rather
• 1:11:55
  than the other. There wouldn't be any kind of
• 1:11:58
  aha moment that like, was life changing for me?
• 1:12:00
  I'd be like, okay, Well, that's nice because that, and that's my
• 1:12:05
  honest you called, you called that a dishonest position.
• 1:12:08
  And I'm saying that's an honest position because again, it's not
• 1:12:11
  that important to me, right, Like the the same way that.
• 1:12:15
  Well, to clarify, I believe I said it was a dishonest position
• 1:12:19
  because. Christians explanation for how
• 1:12:24
  we are here has been the understood narrative for 4000
• 1:12:28
  plus years and you guys are offering the explanation of how
• 1:12:31
  that's inaccurate and I feel like it's just disingenuous to
• 1:12:35
  offer the explanation of how it's inaccurate and even go as
• 1:12:38
  far as to teach it to children in schools when it's not proven.
• 1:12:43
  Am I mistaken? And that Christians were the
• 1:12:46
  ones that discovered The Big Bang, that discovered evolution,
• 1:12:50
  that discovered all of this. Am I wrong?
• 1:12:52
  It was a cap. Like it was a cap like Dmitri,
• 1:12:56
  who actually worked with Einstein and came to the
• 1:12:58
  conclusion the universe had a beginning.
• 1:13:01
  And yeah, Darwin had some theological views as well.
• 1:13:05
  But Darwin also was our major drugs and hallucinated
• 1:13:08
  repeatedly on opium. So I don't know.
• 1:13:12
  He was a junkie who thought he was a monkey.
• 1:13:18
  OK, Doom, can I ask you the same question what you believe The
• 1:13:22
  Big Bang is? I think it's.
• 1:13:31
  I don't know. Oh, I guess it's like when
• 1:13:34
  everything's but the universe started, I guess.
• 1:13:37
  OK, You think that it's the origins of the beginning of
• 1:13:40
  everything, the starting point. OK, fair enough.
• 1:13:44
  Thank you buddy. Yeah.
• 1:13:46
  So can I ask a question here? I'm.
• 1:13:49
  I'm kind of. OK.
• 1:14:04
  OK, that that's a trick question.
• 1:13:53
  So written history goes back 40,000 years, right?
• 1:13:58
  Would everybody agree with that? No.
• 1:14:03
  How far? I can't agree to that.
• 1:14:08
  Yeah, I agree. OK.
• 1:14:11
  Hear you. It's hard to determine the
• 1:14:15
  history of mankind because humanity's fought so many wars
• 1:14:18
  and destroyed so many documents and important information even
• 1:14:23
  back then. Alexandria is a perfect example.
• 1:14:26
  Go ahead. OK.
• 1:14:28
  And OK, so we'll, for concession sake, we'll say, scholarly
• 1:14:33
  speaking amongst the scholars, they all agree around 40,000
• 1:14:38
  years, right? I don't know.
• 1:14:43
  I haven't been in a room with all the scholars before, but I
• 1:14:46
  suppose you could speculate. I mean, my understanding anyway.
• 1:14:54
  Well, my point doesn't really make any sense if I can't make a
• 1:14:57
  concession, so never mind. I'll I'll say I don't have a
• 1:15:01
  problem with that. I I it's been a long time since
• 1:15:04
  since I've done any history like that or or read anything about
• 1:15:08
  it, but I I thought it was like. I don't know when it was.
• 1:15:13
  I know that we've been domesticating dogs for 30 + 1000
• 1:15:17
  years. I know that we have trees that
• 1:15:19
  are 11,000 years old by counting the rings in them.
• 1:15:22
  And I know people argue about this, but I I don't have an
• 1:15:25
  issue with any of those statements, whether trees are
• 1:15:28
  older than 10,000 years, we've been domesticating animals for
• 1:15:32
  more than 30 years, or we've been writing for more than
• 1:15:35
  40,000 years. So my understanding is the
• 1:15:41
  running concession that between all the scholars today, is that
• 1:15:45
  the earliest documents that we can find all agree.
• 1:15:48
  About. 40,000 years, right So, and and this is an issue because
• 1:15:58
  mankind claims to be able to look back like 100,000 years,
• 1:16:04
  so. There's the you know it, it's
• 1:16:07
  just there isn't enough records. So anyway, my my point is that
• 1:16:28
  that was my point. And even if we did keep
• 1:16:13
  meticulous records on on the weather, we still don't
• 1:16:16
  understand what normal. All right, so.
• 1:16:33
  Do you? Well, hold on.
• 1:16:35
  I'm confused what the point actually is.
• 1:16:36
  Do you think the earth. I'm sorry, do you think we've
• 1:16:39
  kept written records for 40,000 years?
• 1:16:43
  That's the concession that as far as we've been keeping
• 1:16:46
  records, I mean, because there's some Chinese companies that go
• 1:16:51
  back thousands of years. So Dustin, again, they all
• 1:16:55
  again, I'm sorry, do you believe that we've been?
• 1:17:00
  We've had, we have written records that are 40,000 years
• 1:17:03
  old. Do I personally believe that?
• 1:17:06
  No, but my understanding of the scholar history and the current
• 1:17:13
  understanding today is that. The.
• 1:17:14
  That the record only goes back 40. 1000 years.
• 1:17:18
  Right. So that's what I missed was your
• 1:17:19
  point. If you don't believe we have
• 1:17:21
  these written records or that we've been keeping records for
• 1:17:25
  40,000 years, what's why, why did you bring that up?
• 1:17:28
  I might have just missed that. Well, because there's there's a
• 1:17:32
  lot of concession being made today based on these records as
• 1:17:37
  to what our history actually looked like.
• 1:17:42
  It it's like it seems like that it's fallen into kind of an echo
• 1:17:46
  chamber where evolution rings and then they start talking
• 1:17:50
  about this, this fossil record and then evolution rings and
• 1:17:54
  then they start talking about the historical record.
• 1:17:57
  It's, you know. There's a lot of overlap, but
• 1:18:00
  there's no actual cross reference.
• 1:18:03
  But it doesn't. Mean that?
• 1:18:05
  Sorry, go ahead. Well, I was going to say I typed
• 1:18:08
  in the chat DBT. I don't know if you guys use
• 1:18:10
  this like AI software, and it looks like the oldest documents
• 1:18:14
  that have ever been preserved are under 5000 years old.
• 1:18:18
  So the young Earthers are going to appreciate that.
• 1:18:21
  That's pretty much all that we have, except for some drawings
• 1:18:24
  on K walls and all that. But that doesn't even go under
• 1:18:29
  over 10,000 years either. So there's another brownie point
• 1:18:33
  for the young Arthurs. And if you don't mind darkness,
• 1:18:45
  you said that evolution at this point is the best model.
• 1:18:48
  If you don't mind elaborating on that, why is believing that we
• 1:18:52
  come from ancient rats a the best model to go along with now?
• 1:19:02
  When I meant best model and maybe I'm I I'm not articulating
• 1:19:05
  that properly or the way that a scientist would.
• 1:19:09
  But meaning that when we look at the earth.
• 1:19:12
  When we dig things up. When we find things in caves.
• 1:19:16
  When when we look at the reality that we all share.
• 1:19:20
  The majority of of if it's a geologist or biologist or
• 1:19:25
  scientist are coming to the conclusions that.
• 1:19:29
  Evolution's the best model because of what we see, whether
• 1:19:32
  it be from all the things that I know very little about.
• 1:19:37
  And I have a friend, a youth pastor that I used to run with
• 1:19:41
  and he believes the earth was young, but God created it with
• 1:19:45
  age, right? Because my question to him was
• 1:19:48
  always like, well, we're running on the Appalachian Trail and
• 1:19:51
  when a geologist comes up and talks about the rock formations
• 1:19:55
  and talks about the the literal layers.
• 1:19:57
  In some places on the Appalachian Trail that we can
• 1:20:00
  see when we look at these, the geologists say, well, because of
• 1:20:04
  the way that sediment and all these things happen, this
• 1:20:08
  particular formation here is X amount of years old, right, like
• 1:20:13
  40,000 years old, 100,000 years old, whatever have you And fish
• 1:20:19
  would always say, well, that's because God created it with age.
• 1:20:24
  So I think Christians that do believe the earth is young
• 1:20:27
  because they hold a literal biblical position struggle with
• 1:20:32
  the way that most of the world sees because it's it's not just
• 1:20:38
  right. Like, so when that geologist
• 1:20:40
  here, if we brought a geologist from anywhere in the world, when
• 1:20:44
  they look at that particular thing and break out their
• 1:20:46
  toolbox, they're going to say pretty much the same thing.
• 1:20:49
  And for fish, that was always problematic.
• 1:20:51
  And the way that he squared that round peg was by saying God
• 1:20:55
  created the earth with age. Oh, what darkness.
• 1:21:00
  I was specifically meaning the model of evolution and proverbs.
• 1:21:05
  He brought up The Big Bang earlier.
• 1:21:07
  Believe it or not, I don't know how many of you are are even
• 1:21:10
  interested, or you've kept up with it, but The Big Bang is now
• 1:21:14
  under major attack. They believe that it could be
• 1:21:19
  something completely different. Hopefully Adam will come in a
• 1:21:22
  little bit and he could talk about that, but they're saying
• 1:21:25
  that The Big Bang possibly there may have been some kind of
• 1:21:28
  beginning, but not in the way that the IT was originally
• 1:21:32
  approached for the last 50 years.
• 1:21:35
  So Brad, I'll say, I'll say this, this is what I see
• 1:21:37
  happening you. He keeps on disappearing on me.
• 1:21:42
  That's not me doing that. No, his service is going in and
• 1:21:47
  out. And also, everybody wealth.
• 1:21:49
  Welcome, Darth. I'm going to butcher this.
• 1:21:51
  I'm sorry, Theronus. Yeah, close enough.
• 1:21:56
  Oh, OK. Well, you're flat, earther.
• 1:21:59
  Nah, damn it. So you believe in a globe Earth.
• 1:22:04
  Well, Proverbs, you got to give me some kudos.
• 1:22:07
  Even though we weren't able to argue about the shape of the
• 1:22:09
  Earth, at least we got into something to have him do with
• 1:22:12
  the Earth, right? You know what?
• 1:22:14
  I have to and I will give you credit for that Brett.
• 1:22:17
  Yes, we did keep it. Earth related.
• 1:22:19
  How many of you think that like the Flat Earthers are like a
• 1:22:23
  atheist Psyop to discredit creationism?
• 1:22:27
  I believe that some of the some of the people claim to be flat
• 1:22:30
  Earthers. They like the idea of being a
• 1:22:33
  part of the community. But I've actually met some folks
• 1:22:36
  on line who are very, very sincerely into this, and they'll
• 1:22:40
  argue to to your dad in the face.
• 1:22:43
  Unfortunately, on one of these like live public things where a
• 1:22:47
  bunch of people are watching, if you don't mind me saying,
• 1:22:50
  flattered, there's get a little weak sauce if I can be nice
• 1:22:54
  about it. That is to say, triggered.
• 1:23:00
  Triggered would kind of insinuate that they would get
• 1:23:03
  excited and maybe want to talk now weak sauce where they just
• 1:23:07
  kind of melt into a little flat puddle.
• 1:23:11
  I think the flatter. I mean, it's already it's a
• 1:23:14
  joke, but there's people that do it, seriously.
• 1:23:16
  And the Internet made people come up.
• 1:23:19
  Well, some of them are citing like texts within the Bible,
• 1:23:22
  like the firmament, and like some sort of canopy.
• 1:23:24
  Because I noticed Kent Hoeven has like, made references to
• 1:23:30
  some of that flat earthy talk. Haven't I seen you on Donnie's
• 1:23:36
  open mic? Yes, you have that before.
• 1:23:39
  I know your profile picture. Yeah, right before he kicked me.
• 1:23:43
  He kicked you. Letter prude.
• 1:23:47
  I think I had it coming. I had.
• 1:23:48
  I had to come in there that time.
• 1:23:51
  They usually usually chill. Welcome back, darkness.
• 1:23:55
  I got your back, bud. Well, I'm just saying Proverbs,
• 1:24:00
  if you if you try to incite that an evolutionist come in or
• 1:24:05
  someone with a theological view. Usually people of this nature
• 1:24:09
  have the courage to actually get into a discussion, but flat
• 1:24:12
  Earthers, again, they run and that's that's one of the reasons
• 1:24:17
  they don't get a lot of credibility or respect for that.
• 1:24:21
  They are professional dodgers. I'm telling you, they're very
• 1:24:25
  bold and comment sections, but try to get them to actually come
• 1:24:29
  on the show and defend their position.
• 1:24:32
  They can't do it. Yeah, cuz.
• 1:24:34
  Starting this look at. Darkness is an atheist and Doom
• 1:24:40
  is an atheist. By the way.
• 1:24:43
  He would say there is no God, right?
• 1:24:45
  I believe that's the point of atheism, yes.
• 1:24:47
  In case anyone is interested, I just got one out of 1 degree
• 1:24:51
  temperature. Oh, I didn't know that.
• 1:24:55
  I didn't know that Darkness was actually an atheist.
• 1:24:57
  I thought he was a theist arguing for evolution.
• 1:25:00
  Goodness gracious. No, Darkness is an atheist.
• 1:25:04
  Doom is an atheist. And Darth, are you not also an
• 1:25:07
  atheist? Oh, heck no.
• 1:25:11
  Oh, you're not. You're a theist.
• 1:25:13
  Yeah, well, I thought you were on the show debating Ken.
• 1:25:18
  Was I wrong? Yeah, I do.
• 1:25:20
  But I'm not like a Christian theist.
• 1:25:22
  Oh, I see. We have a friend who comes on
• 1:25:27
  from time to time who we're all fond of.
• 1:25:29
  He is similar to you. Do you mind sharing your theism
• 1:25:35
  experience? Well, if type of theist, I would
• 1:25:39
  say I'm a polytheist. So you believe in multiple gods?
• 1:25:44
  Yeah, but lower case G multiple gods.
• 1:25:47
  So I believe like one capital G God and then multiple lower case
• 1:25:52
  G gods. Uh huh.
• 1:25:53
  Is this a mainstream religion? I think it's pretty much all
• 1:25:57
  throughout history Has always been polytheist.
• 1:26:02
  Christian Pikes is Brett. Do you have a particular
• 1:26:05
  animosity towards Flat Earth believers?
• 1:26:07
  No, not really. It's.
• 1:26:09
  I mean, take me in proverbs. Yesterday we called out some non
• 1:26:13
  believers and with five within 5 minutes they were up here ready
• 1:26:17
  to rock'n'roll. You get a kind of respect for
• 1:26:20
  that. The fact that you're willing to
• 1:26:22
  stand up for your view or non believe or whatever the case,
• 1:26:25
  but it's true. Flat Earthers run all the time.
• 1:26:28
  They're like keyboard commandos drive by.
• 1:26:31
  Do you guys know about that guy who was pretending to be a
• 1:26:34
  flatterer with her to get like cash from them so he could build
• 1:26:37
  a rocket? And he did get that.
• 1:26:40
  He did get the cashing. He did build a rocket.
• 1:26:42
  But like once he took off on the rocket, it came back crashing
• 1:26:46
  back down. He died.
• 1:26:48
  Yeah, I don't understand why you would do that.
• 1:26:51
  Yeah, I don't know. I'm.
• 1:26:52
  Just getting the rocket. 'Cause he he must have known,
• 1:26:57
  like it was gonna fail, like it was a homemade rocket.
• 1:27:01
  So it wasn't like a professional.
• 1:27:04
  It was just like a, you know, those things you do in high
• 1:27:08
  school. But it was just like Upsize for
• 1:27:12
  a human. Do you mind if I ask Darkness a
• 1:27:16
  question? Darkness, Do you believe in
• 1:27:18
  spontaneous generation? So, not sure, but this is what I
• 1:27:26
  was gonna say before the Internet cut out again.
• 1:27:28
  And so it's two things. One, I don't know much about
• 1:27:37
  science. I don't know much about
• 1:27:38
  evolution. I've said this a couple of
• 1:27:40
  times, but when I gave the geologist example, you want to
• 1:27:42
  go back to evolution. So it seems like you want to go
• 1:27:44
  back to where you're comfortable.
• 1:27:46
  I understand that. We all do because you've got
• 1:27:49
  points that you can argue against evolution.
• 1:27:52
  I get that. So that's the first thing.
• 1:27:55
  My second thing is, Brett and to the rest of the panel, do you
• 1:27:58
  think if you somehow so, I don't think you're going to disprove
• 1:28:02
  evolution, but let me ask this, do you think by poking holes in
• 1:28:07
  evolution, some of which the scientific community agrees with
• 1:28:12
  you, do you think that does anything like so, So if if we
• 1:28:17
  proved to you tomorrow, I asked this earlier, if evolution was
• 1:28:21
  true micro, macro, the whole ball and chain, do you think
• 1:28:27
  that would, are you going to stop believing?
• 1:28:30
  And if we prove that it's false tomorrow, do you think I'm going
• 1:28:33
  to start believing? You think it does anything for
• 1:28:36
  the God belief or the the disbelief of a God?
• 1:28:38
  Well, I I personally think it's very healthy to question it.
• 1:28:43
  I always find it interesting whenever the non believer
• 1:28:46
  doesn't know how to argue their position, suddenly they start
• 1:28:49
  throwing out of these what ifs and all this do you?
• 1:28:52
  Do you even know what spontaneous generation means?
• 1:28:55
  But I even ask you, Brett, did you did you listen to my what
• 1:28:58
  if? Because it's not.
• 1:29:00
  It doesn't have anything to do with science.
• 1:29:02
  OK, so if you heard me, one, I'll ask you to answer it.
• 1:29:06
  And two, what was my what if because?
• 1:29:09
  Darkness. I've actually seen Christians
• 1:29:12
  defeat atheists and conversations and debates
• 1:29:15
  haven't do with evolution, and it has caused some people to
• 1:29:19
  look more deeply and take God more seriously.
• 1:29:22
  He's talking about. Scenario.
• 1:29:24
  What if scenario? What if what?
• 1:29:27
  No, no, that's exactly what he he answered.
• 1:29:29
  But he didn't answer for himself.
• 1:29:31
  He answered for another like he's seen that happen.
• 1:29:34
  But what I'm asking you, Brett, is if tomorrow you found out
• 1:29:39
  Macro Evolution was true, which seems to be your biggest bitch
• 1:29:42
  about it, do you think? Language please.
• 1:29:45
  Sorry, do you think that would have any bearing or weight on
• 1:29:50
  the truth of Christianity for you?
• 1:29:53
  Yes, so and. Just interjection really quick
• 1:29:57
  and it's for you darkness. Whenever you stop talking and
• 1:30:01
  Brett starts, sometimes you're banging on something.
• 1:30:03
  Whenever you're done talking, can you just mute until you're
• 1:30:06
  ready to talk again so we can hear Brett when he's talking
• 1:30:08
  too? I'm so sorry I didn't.
• 1:30:10
  Yeah. No, it's all right.
• 1:30:11
  I'm just making you aware of it. Go ahead.
• 1:30:13
  Thanks. Yeah, I actually do think it's
• 1:30:16
  that simple. I believe that a lot of
• 1:30:18
  atheists, they attach themselves to evolution and they Biogenesis
• 1:30:23
  and some of them to spontaneous generation.
• 1:30:26
  So they don't have to confront the God question or creation.
• 1:30:30
  I believe they use it in order to try to eradicate creationism,
• 1:30:35
  the entire story of Genesis, which does entirely connect with
• 1:30:40
  Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
• 1:30:42
  So yeah, I think that if you take that from them and you show
• 1:30:45
  scientifically that it's absolute nonsense, then they
• 1:30:48
  have to confront other alternatives.
• 1:30:51
  Is that the the response you were hoping to hear that's well
• 1:30:56
  that was an answer to the actual question that I asked and and so
• 1:30:59
  thank you and and because. So maybe and this hold on this
• 1:31:04
  helps Brett, this helps you and I have a much better
• 1:31:07
  conversation because I'm not that atheist.
• 1:31:09
  I don't care right. Like, so when you talk about
• 1:31:12
  evolution, it doesn't bother me when we talk about like and and
• 1:31:14
  I've told this to Proverbs, but I've, I haven't told this to
• 1:31:17
  you. So maybe it would help us have
• 1:31:18
  better conversations in the future.
• 1:31:20
  That again, if you proved evolution false, which I really
• 1:31:23
  don't care about, right? Like I don't study evolution.
• 1:31:26
  I don't talk about it and it's not really what would ever
• 1:31:29
  change me because I'm one of those people that science isn't
• 1:31:32
  gonna do it right. Like if you disprove something
• 1:31:34
  in science, I'm not gonna go, oh, Jesus, right.
• 1:31:36
  Maybe there are people out there, but not me.
• 1:31:39
  So you're barking up the wrong tree in that regard.
• 1:31:42
  So you're taking things on faith?
• 1:31:44
  Well, that's good. I mean, if you're taking things
• 1:31:46
  on faith, that's fine. Excuse me.
• 1:31:48
  What? What that?
• 1:31:49
  Is what you're doing darkness? Mr. Darth has a point.
• 1:31:52
  You're saying I don't really know too much about all this,
• 1:31:55
  and I don't really care, so I'm just kind of believing because
• 1:31:58
  that's what I was told, my friend.
• 1:32:00
  That's you're going on blind faith, actually very good.
• 1:32:04
  Darth That is blind faith. So I I don't necessarily think
• 1:32:08
  it's faith because when we talk about things like and maybe
• 1:32:11
  they're better people. So I love listening to, like,
• 1:32:13
  Mark Reed because I'm. I don't.
• 1:32:16
  Mark Reed, do you know? You don't.
• 1:32:19
  Interesting. So no.
• 1:32:22
  Go ahead, dude. No, I was just gonna say Mark
• 1:32:24
  Reed owes me $1,000,000 because I am the guy who disproved
• 1:32:28
  evolution. We got something out here named
• 1:32:33
  Christian Pike, who says he feels bad when he sees atheists
• 1:32:36
  getting pounded. Aren't I?
• 1:32:38
  Yeah, like. You feel that way.
• 1:32:41
  I felt I was just having a good kind conversation with Darkness
• 1:32:44
  about where I so my point answer the questions.
• 1:32:47
  So my point my point being is so I don't take anything on faith
• 1:32:51
  depending on how you define it right?
• 1:32:53
  Like if you want to define my position because I hold to the
• 1:32:57
  current model of evolution that I'm taking it on faith, I I'm
• 1:33:00
  unwilling to have that argument because I'm just simply at the
• 1:33:03
  end of the day gonna say I don't take anything on faith.
• 1:33:05
  You're gonna say, yes, you do. And that makes you feel better
• 1:33:07
  about me taking something on faith.
• 1:33:09
  And I I've had that argument so many times so I'm blue in the
• 1:33:12
  face that I no longer will have it because we're never gonna see
• 1:33:16
  eye to eye on that. Right.
• 1:33:17
  Just like Brett, you and I are never gonna see eye to eye on
• 1:33:20
  evolution. So it's not really a fruitful
• 1:33:21
  conversation. So I don't care to have it.
• 1:33:23
  If you wanna just say hey look, Darkness is is taking things on
• 1:33:26
  blind faith, that's fine. I I don't give it.
• 1:33:30
  I I was curious what your view. I was curious what your view are
• 1:33:34
  in spontaneous generation is. If you want me to describe it,
• 1:33:39
  I'll be more than happy to do that and then see if you accept
• 1:33:41
  it. So I'm not interested in one and
• 1:33:45
  talking unless I'm not interested in talking about
• 1:33:48
  science. That's not why I come on to
• 1:33:49
  proverbs, things that I come on to.
• 1:33:51
  I like the conversations. What really interests me more
• 1:33:54
  than anything, if you want to know, is when Christian Pike,
• 1:34:00
  who apparently is another Georgian right.
• 1:34:05
  I'm interested when he comes on because I do see election in the
• 1:34:09
  Bible when I read. It's not a Georgian, just to be
• 1:34:12
  clear. Well, so I see election in in
• 1:34:16
  the Bible and it seems he and Proverbs differ on that.
• 1:34:19
  And I can't really articulate because I'm I'm not obviously a
• 1:34:24
  pastor or a preacher, but it seems that Christian Pike is.
• 1:34:27
  So I would be interesting the listening to that conversation
• 1:34:30
  so that I could maybe make a better opinion on when I read
• 1:34:33
  the Bible every now and then. Whether you Sir?
• 1:34:37
  You, Sir, have upset the balance, and this will not
• 1:34:41
  stand. Does Darkness?
• 1:34:45
  May I make a proposition to you? Yeah, Ron, go ahead.
• 1:34:52
  If if I remember correctly, you live in the beautiful North
• 1:34:54
  Georgia mountains. You're not that far from Powder
• 1:35:00
  Springs, which is where the Creation Ministry International
• 1:35:04
  Headquarters is creation.com. If you'd like to, maybe we can
• 1:35:08
  set up a time when both of us can meet at CMI's headquarters
• 1:35:13
  and I can set up. I can arrange like a one-on-one,
• 1:35:16
  one-on-one Q&A between you and one of their scientists.
• 1:35:22
  Look, dude, there's honestly Ryan.
• 1:35:24
  Thank you. That's not gonna happen anytime
• 1:35:26
  this year, cuz we're about to go into some things for us.
• 1:35:30
  And there's okay, there's a lot. Now, I'm not saying that I'm
• 1:35:34
  unopposed to it, but again, God, it's really hard for me to, or
• 1:35:39
  it seems very hard for me to get through to you guys that science
• 1:35:42
  doesn't do it for me, right? Yeah, it does.
• 1:35:45
  It does it for you guys and I get it right.
• 1:35:47
  But I like listening to you guys and Mark Reed go at it.
• 1:35:50
  And I think I've learned things from from all sides, maybe,
• 1:35:54
  yeah. Yeah, I don't know something
• 1:35:56
  though, Darkness. I actually don't enjoy it at
• 1:35:58
  all. I mean, I enjoy the discussion
• 1:36:00
  back and forth because ultimately I'm hoping to win you
• 1:36:03
  guys to Christ, right? And you know that I don't make
• 1:36:05
  it a secret. But yeah, but he's not.
• 1:36:09
  Yeah, he's not asking for like. Scientific argument.
• 1:36:12
  So there's no point because you says it doesn't.
• 1:36:15
  It's a thing of belief and so belief doesn't have to comport
• 1:36:19
  with reality. So I can be an atheist against
• 1:36:22
  cats. You can let you can show me a
• 1:36:24
  cat and like here's a freaking literal cat, My God, why are you
• 1:36:28
  an atheist against that? Well it's a it's a belief thing.
• 1:36:30
  I don't have to believe what is true.
• 1:36:34
  So even if even if show darkness God, he doesn't have to believe
• 1:36:38
  anything. He doesn't.
• 1:36:39
  You don't have to believe in God.
• 1:36:40
  If, despite any scientific evidence he will, you know he he
• 1:36:46
  would go on his faith and say I don't believe, but by the way,
• 1:36:50
  Mark Reed lost me so bad he owes me $1,000,000.
• 1:36:54
  So I wouldn't take whatever Mark Reed says.
• 1:36:58
  You know, if you ever get 1,000,000 bucks, I could use a
• 1:37:01
  loan. Brother, go ahead.
• 1:37:02
  He's in, he's in New Zealand, so I can't sue him.
• 1:37:06
  Well, you know, I think he actually is coming on tonight.
• 1:37:10
  He said 7:30 was a little early for him, but it's 914 now so I'm
• 1:37:14
  assuming he'll be on anytime I. Thought he was.
• 1:37:17
  An Australia? I thought it was Australia.
• 1:37:20
  Yeah, he told me he hates New Zealand.
• 1:37:23
  May I? I I'd like to ask you this
• 1:37:25
  darkness. You say you don't care about
• 1:37:27
  science. That's not going to move you in
• 1:37:29
  any kind of way. How much concern or care do you
• 1:37:32
  have about the the concept of God?
• 1:37:37
  I'm sure Brett just one question then I'll answer.
• 1:37:43
  You keep asking me questions after I ask you questions, but
• 1:37:46
  sure. Did science.
• 1:37:42
  That's what we keep. Well, I'm gonna.
• 1:37:47
  No, no, no. I'm happy to answer, but I Did
• 1:37:49
  science move you at all towards God?
• 1:37:53
  Yeah, actually it does. I love the quote from Albert
• 1:37:56
  Einstein where he says the more I study science, the more I
• 1:37:59
  believe in God. I believe science actually leads
• 1:38:02
  to God. If it's good science and it's
• 1:38:05
  right science, yeah, maybe you're right about that as far
• 1:38:09
  as in ask that, ask the question one more time just so I don't
• 1:38:14
  mess it up, Brett. So you say that you don't care
• 1:38:17
  really about what science has. You're not into that, That's not
• 1:38:21
  your ball game. But when it comes to the concept
• 1:38:23
  of God, do you have anything, any interest in this?
• 1:38:30
  Yes, obviously I wouldn't be on here otherwise.
• 1:38:34
  So I like the theology behind it.
• 1:38:36
  I like the aspect of, you know, I mean we live in North Georgia,
• 1:38:40
  so most, most everyone of my friends is Christian, my
• 1:38:42
  family's Christian, my mother is.
• 1:38:46
  I wouldn't say she's not fundamental in that in in in the
• 1:38:52
  sense of, I wouldn't even say she's evangelical, but she's
• 1:38:55
  definitely strong in her faith. I think the question that
• 1:39:00
  should, I think the question they should be asking is would
• 1:39:03
  anything change your mind or change your belief?
• 1:39:06
  Well, I just, I just wanna, I appreciate, Darkness responded.
• 1:39:09
  And that's really what I wanted to know.
• 1:39:11
  That's good Darkness, that you actually do care about the
• 1:39:15
  theological discussions, and you're wanting to get something
• 1:39:18
  out of it. Now we're getting somewhere.
• 1:39:20
  That's all I wanted to know about that.
• 1:39:22
  Hey, Christian Pike. How you doing?
• 1:39:23
  Sorry for being mean to those atheists out there.
• 1:39:26
  Oh goodness gracious. Oh, it's OK.
• 1:39:28
  I have about 40% of a borrowed 3G service.
• 1:39:31
  So I just. Wanted to come say hello.
• 1:39:33
  I wanted to. First off, pat Darkness on the
• 1:39:36
  shoulder and just say he's my man because he believes the
• 1:39:38
  Bible for what it says about election.
• 1:39:40
  Versus how he feels. About it and also just say hello
• 1:39:44
  to the brethren. Hey Christian, good to see you,
• 1:39:46
  brother. Christian.
• 1:39:48
  Christian. Howdy.
• 1:39:50
  Where have you? Been Christian.
• 1:39:55
  A lot. I got a 101 degree temperature
• 1:39:53
  right now. So goodness.
• 1:39:56
  Yeah, you guys can eat it because Christian is in Rochelle
• 1:40:01
  and we're probably gonna hang out again this week.
• 1:40:03
  Come on, man. Oh, good, good, good.
• 1:40:07
  You owe me a steak dinner. I've been.
• 1:40:08
  Waiting for that steak dinner. You know what?
• 1:40:10
  That sounds fair, Christian. That does.
• 1:40:12
  Is the family with you this time?
• 1:40:14
  Yeah, we got them. Y'all, I'll just come out to the
• 1:40:16
  farm man. If I do it, it's gonna have to
• 1:40:19
  be Saturday. Because they have service here
• 1:40:21
  Saturday night. And so I'll probably almost
• 1:40:23
  certainly speak at that. And and then I'm working
• 1:40:26
  tomorrow, the next day with one of the brethren and the tile
• 1:40:28
  job. So if I do, it'll have to be
• 1:40:30
  Saturday. Well, you know what?
• 1:40:32
  Saturday is the Sabbath. So all we're ever doing is
• 1:40:34
  sitting around the house reading the Bible.
• 1:40:37
  Come on with it, let's kick it. See you guys a moment ago you
• 1:40:41
  were talking about election and all that.
• 1:40:43
  What was? What's?
• 1:40:44
  What's the topic whenever it comes to that?
• 1:40:49
  Uh huh. It comes to that often.
• 1:40:52
  Are you a flat? Earther.
• 1:40:53
  Can I can I interrupt for a minute just to Christian?
• 1:40:56
  Pike is a huge flat earther. Look at his profile pic we got.
• 1:41:01
  Flatterers. Yeah.
• 1:41:05
  So, very too different. So, Christian, at some point
• 1:41:09
  I'll have to say hello to you when the stream's not so packed.
• 1:41:13
  We're. We're in North Georgia.
• 1:41:15
  Why are? You moving around in the
• 1:41:16
  background book. That's not that's not my mic
• 1:41:18
  dude. Oh.
• 1:41:20
  Yeah, sometimes we're gonna work because.
• 1:41:22
  You're the atheist on the stream.
• 1:41:23
  You have to stand up for yourself.
• 1:41:25
  That's right. So but anyway, I've seen a
• 1:41:28
  couple of your videos with Mark and and I enjoyed most of those
• 1:41:31
  and I've seen you on Proverbs, but I just found it interesting
• 1:41:35
  that you, Ryan and I all live in Georgia.
• 1:41:38
  And but anyway, so yeah, and maybe sometime.
• 1:41:43
  Well, maybe this is, maybe this would help Proverbs, because
• 1:41:47
  where I'm located, Christian, I think you can understand what
• 1:41:49
  North Georgia is just Calvinist by nature, right?
• 1:41:52
  Like I mean. If well, when you look over the
• 1:41:54
  beautiful, you know, mountains of Appalachia and you just know
• 1:41:57
  that all these things predetermined.
• 1:42:00
  That's right. So, so look, I'm gonna let, I'm
• 1:42:02
  gonna let you, I'm gonna let you bust Proverbs chops.
• 1:42:05
  But I'm gonna say this because what he's getting at is and and
• 1:42:09
  where, he told. I can't remember what he
• 1:42:12
  actually said to me, but I I remember something to the sort
• 1:42:14
  of of why I was wrong about when I read the Bible, my
• 1:42:17
  interpretation. But when I read the book I lean
• 1:42:20
  towards Calvinist views right? And maybe it's because I no, I'm
• 1:42:25
  I'm surrounded by them. But when I read the book, it's
• 1:42:27
  very clear there's an elect, there's a non elect, that
• 1:42:29
  there's predestinal well, the only reason that you.
• 1:42:31
  Feel there's a lot of says. It so many times.
• 1:42:33
  So. It won't for that.
• 1:42:37
  So, but that's where this is. That's where this is coming.
• 1:42:40
  That's where this is coming from, Christian, So I'll let
• 1:42:42
  you, you and Proverbs go just so you know where I.
• 1:42:44
  Am just so you know. Christian is like my brother and
• 1:42:47
  the Lord and a very dear friend. And we have all our regular
• 1:42:52
  panelists including Captain Stump and Dustin.
• 1:42:55
  We have had the predestination free will conversation so many
• 1:42:59
  times and actually Christian Pike and Captain Stump had an
• 1:43:03
  official debate over it and he's welcome to bust my chops.
• 1:43:07
  I've. Right, But isn't that the beauty
• 1:43:09
  of it? Isn't that the beauty when
• 1:43:11
  you're when you're actually friends with someone?
• 1:43:15
  That conversation goes so much differently than when you are
• 1:43:18
  on. When you get 2 Christians in the
• 1:43:20
  room that don't know each other and they start arguing about it
• 1:43:23
  because then neither of them is open, they're closed off, they
• 1:43:26
  put up their guard and they're literally going to sit across
• 1:43:28
  from the table and beat each other over the head with the
• 1:43:30
  same book versus me hating those types of conversations.
• 1:43:36
  Much rather enjoy a conversation between friends, especially in
• 1:43:39
  person. When I've when I've literally
• 1:43:41
  been in the woods running with a Calvinist youth pastor and a
• 1:43:48
  what was he was a special forces medic pastor Catholic.
• 1:43:54
  But there was a there was a there was a certain name for it,
• 1:43:57
  but the three of us used to run in the woods, and and having
• 1:43:59
  these conversations amongst friends are much more.
• 1:44:06
  Fun than actually sitting across like listening to two people.
• 1:44:08
  Man, I'm gonna have to buy you dinner.
• 1:44:09
  Sometimes you're cool to beat each other.
• 1:44:11
  Hello. So do we do we have any
• 1:44:14
  compatible lists in here or is it just one way or the other?
• 1:44:18
  It's either predestination or free will.
• 1:44:20
  I actually don't identify as a Calvinist.
• 1:44:22
  I think probably my views on determinism are so strong that
• 1:44:27
  John Calvin would look like an Armenian compared to me.
• 1:44:31
  I mean, how do you define free will?
• 1:44:35
  Million. Dollar question right there.
• 1:44:37
  So is it just like the ability to do as you want or to think as
• 1:44:45
  you want? Yeah.
• 1:44:47
  What if you're speaking about the argument literally, like the
• 1:44:50
  the disagreement? Go ahead.
• 1:44:54
  Yeah, like think the idea is like.
• 1:45:00
  Like can you do what you will? Stopping you for like doing what
• 1:45:03
  you want to do. But like this is like let's say
• 1:45:10
  I want to take a burger. Let's say I want to take a
• 1:45:16
  burger from the store and have no consequences.
• 1:45:21
  May I get my two cents real quick?
• 1:45:23
  I believe it's the the definition of free will would be
• 1:45:26
  the ability to have done otherwise.
• 1:45:31
  That's a pretty good definition. But does does that also include
• 1:45:35
  the the the ability to do, like take a take a take a burger with
• 1:45:41
  that consequence and steal something with that
• 1:45:43
  consequences? Does does that also?
• 1:45:45
  Is that also included in that definition?
• 1:45:49
  You're Speaking of Debbie? You're talking.
• 1:45:51
  Herodon, that's established. Yeah, I think you're talking
• 1:45:54
  about something much different. Well, no, because that
• 1:45:57
  definition also Canon caps like that.
• 1:46:01
  And so if you're saying. You're saying that there's a
• 1:46:04
  certain paradigm that's been established, and do you have the
• 1:46:06
  ability to deviate from it? Yeah.
• 1:46:10
  That's by the ultimate. Raising that well, right Could
• 1:46:14
  you have not stolen the burger? Is where I talk of when I talk
• 1:46:17
  when I'm interested in talking about free will.
• 1:46:20
  Darth, it would be could you not have stolen the burger?
• 1:46:22
  Not can you steal the burger and not have consequences.
• 1:46:25
  It's could you have done otherwise, like with everything
• 1:46:29
  being equal? With we're talking about
• 1:46:31
  everything from it raining outside to how many people are
• 1:46:34
  in the store to if there's actually even a burger there for
• 1:46:37
  you to steal, right? Like if we, if we put all those
• 1:46:40
  scenarios back together, exactly equal with everything being
• 1:46:45
  equal, could you have done otherwise?
• 1:46:46
  And I'm going to simply say probably not like I don't see
• 1:46:49
  how you could, right? All right, two cents.
• 1:46:52
  Because I have to wake up at 3:30 in the morning, so I just
• 1:46:54
  want to throw two cents and then leave y'all with it because
• 1:46:56
  that's the rude thing to do the the debate.
• 1:47:00
  About election or I guess a better term in this case would
• 1:47:04
  be predestination. But the debate about determinism
• 1:47:06
  biblically is really more or less about the salvation of
• 1:47:09
  individual souls more than daily decisions and preferences.
• 1:47:13
  That's more where the debate is from the scriptural point of
• 1:47:15
  view. Now you can philosophize all of
• 1:47:17
  it of course, or extrapolate, but from the scriptures point of
• 1:47:20
  view, the scriptures deal with whether or not an individual was
• 1:47:24
  predetermined to come to meet their creator, or whether they
• 1:47:27
  were predetermined to be lost. It's not so much whether they
• 1:47:30
  like Coke or Pepsi or chose to go to the store that day or not.
• 1:47:33
  That's more of an extrapolation of the theology.
• 1:47:35
  The stripped down theology itself is does God or does he
• 1:47:39
  not predetermine who are his and who are not His?
• 1:47:43
  That's really all the scriptures deal with.
• 1:47:45
  Well, Mr. Pike, if you don't mind me asking, according to
• 1:47:49
  your perspective, what is the difference between God knowing
• 1:47:52
  something and actually making someone do something?
• 1:47:56
  I get that question a lot, and I'll tell you this.
• 1:47:59
  I think the idea of there being a difference at all is a bit of
• 1:48:03
  a misconception. If something is prophesied, for
• 1:48:07
  instance, you know in the Book of Revelation, in chapter I
• 1:48:09
  think it's chapter 19, it says that the testimony of Jesus is
• 1:48:12
  the spirit of prophecy, which indicates in the context of that
• 1:48:15
  passage that the ability to know what's going to happen with a
• 1:48:18
  surety before it happens, as a proof that God is in the mix.
• 1:48:21
  All of the old. Testament is based upon
• 1:48:23
  prophetical utterance and all the New Testament is based upon
• 1:48:26
  the fulfillment or vindication of prophetical utterance.
• 1:48:29
  So. When you say.
• 1:48:31
  Did God know a virgin would conceive and tell Isaiah that
• 1:48:34
  500 years early? Or did he?
• 1:48:36
  Cause a virgin to conceive. I think those two are just two
• 1:48:39
  sides the same point. I think it's really.
• 1:48:41
  The same thing. No, I would say it's completely
• 1:48:44
  different. For example, I can prophesize
• 1:48:47
  because I can prophesize something like I'm gonna do X
• 1:48:51
  and then I will do X because there's nobody to stop me.
• 1:48:54
  You know, taking the perspective from a God because nobody can
• 1:48:57
  stop you S God, But uh. But if nobody can stop you, that
• 1:49:00
  means things are determined. If people don't have the ability
• 1:49:03
  to deviate from the script, that means there is no true free
• 1:49:05
  will. Well, no God.
• 1:49:07
  You can't impose your will on God.
• 1:49:09
  You can't take away God's free will.
• 1:49:10
  So God is can still be an actor in all of this.
• 1:49:14
  He just has the bigger gun and you.
• 1:49:16
  And at that point just you're just saying, well gone, well,
• 1:49:19
  you're just like God defeated me, He has a bigger gun.
• 1:49:21
  Well, too bad, good, good kid. Do you think the kid is?
• 1:49:25
  Good and defeat God. But that's the thing.
• 1:49:28
  You can't defeat God. And so God's reply, God's reply
• 1:49:31
  is like, I am almighty, correct. That's what we call determinism.
• 1:49:35
  Well, that that's not determinism.
• 1:49:37
  He just simply has the biggest gun.
• 1:49:38
  This is no different than a country taking over a small
• 1:49:41
  village just because just because they had the bigger gun,
• 1:49:46
  it wasn't, quote, UN quote, determine.
• 1:49:48
  But no, they just simply have the bigger gun.
• 1:49:51
  That's the natural outcome of having the bigger gun.
• 1:49:55
  Yeah, I'm gonna go with what he said.
• 1:49:56
  Yeah. Well, we're not talking about
• 1:49:59
  God controlling human events. We're talking about whether he
• 1:50:01
  predestinates someone to hell. Or to heaven when?
• 1:50:04
  We get off on on a different thing that takes away from the
• 1:50:07
  truth, which is no, he does not, and it gives you freak will.
• 1:50:10
  So that messes things up and we need to stay if we're going to
• 1:50:13
  talk about that. Whether God, yeah, I'm sorry,
• 1:50:16
  but whether God predestinates a man to hell out of no cause of
• 1:50:21
  his own, or to heaven out of no cause of his own.
• 1:50:25
  That's simply not biblical. And unfortunately, it's
• 1:50:28
  dangerous doctrine. Yeah.
• 1:50:31
  Well, whether. Or not you, but God.
• 1:50:34
  What God isn't like. God isn't like holding your hand
• 1:50:39
  like a puppet and making youth do things is simply it's simply
• 1:50:44
  like a government that has pretty much rule over
• 1:50:46
  everything, manipulating everything around you that you
• 1:50:50
  basically just you're like a pinball and the pinball machine.
• 1:50:56
  Yeah, I mean, I have. To agree with this fellow again.
• 1:50:59
  Well, when Scripture says that God says he'll have mercy on who
• 1:51:03
  He will have mercy on what does he?
• 1:51:05
  What do you think that means? Only on people that did what
• 1:51:07
  that didn't do anything. He has mercy.
• 1:51:08
  How can he have person mercy on anybody didn't do anything
• 1:51:11
  wrong. So from the beginning he had
• 1:51:12
  mercy on people that didn't do anything wrong that he for knew
• 1:51:15
  you say when they were like before they're even created.
• 1:51:19
  It makes no sense. He says he'll have mercy on
• 1:51:20
  who'll have mercy on so. Therefore if you do choose
• 1:51:23
  something that that fits within his will, he can have mercy on
• 1:51:26
  you such as Pharaoh you know did to glorify God.
• 1:51:30
  He did these things that God want him to do right kind of had
• 1:51:33
  a hand in it. But that don't mean that that
• 1:51:35
  Pharaoh is going to hell because God is the final judge and God
• 1:51:38
  said he will have mercy on who you have mercy on and to deny
• 1:51:40
  that says God has no free will. Yeah, no one with the with the
• 1:51:43
  script. Well, no.
• 1:51:44
  If I say if, Well, if I say I'm going to kill your kid, There's
• 1:51:48
  nothing that's stopped me from killing you, then I carry your
• 1:51:51
  kid. Of course you're gonna get
• 1:51:53
  upset. And I knew you were gonna get
• 1:51:54
  upset, so it's not something like I puppety puppety you to be
• 1:51:59
  upset. I just simply knew this was
• 1:52:01
  gonna upset you. Darth, I think that we're having
• 1:52:04
  slightly at least two different conversations because I can also
• 1:52:07
  speculate with my own intuition and experience and say what I
• 1:52:10
  think makes sense. That's not really where I'm
• 1:52:13
  pulling my position from. I'm pulling my position from
• 1:52:15
  what I feel like the text teaches.
• 1:52:22
  Well Chris, you don't have a lot of bars but I demonstrated on
• 1:52:26
  one of my shows how when it said that he saw I have I have hated
• 1:52:32
  but Jacob I've loved was not said to us and while they were
• 1:52:36
  in the womb and but that's one thing that people who believe in
• 1:52:40
  predestination views often when it's a total.
• 1:52:42
  Fault that. You are wrong about that.
• 1:52:45
  Well, I can show you clearly how that's not right all, he said.
• 1:52:49
  When they were in the womb, was that the the?
• 1:52:51
  The older self-serve the younger, which is a constant
• 1:52:53
  thing throughout scripture. You see it all the time.
• 1:52:56
  You see it all and over. Probably will or did he say
• 1:52:58
  shall? The older shall serve the
• 1:53:01
  younger. But not probably will not like
• 1:53:03
  that. Does that mean that means that
• 1:53:04
  he hated them or what does that? Mean to happen?
• 1:53:08
  So does that mean that because of that, he's going to hell?
• 1:53:11
  It means that the older was going to serve the younger.
• 1:53:15
  OK, well, what does that mean in the terms of our election
• 1:53:18
  debate, which says? That you're predetermined for no
• 1:53:22
  cause to go to hell or heaven. It doesn't.
• 1:53:25
  It doesn't help that if it says if it says that if it's true,
• 1:53:31
  what what everybody claims? That he believes in
• 1:53:33
  predestination. That he's God said while they
• 1:53:36
  were yet born. Whether you're still in
• 1:53:37
  Rebecca's stomach. That that.
• 1:53:40
  Jacob, I have love you so I've hated.
• 1:53:42
  If that's true, then then I see your point.
• 1:53:44
  But that's not true. But it.
• 1:53:45
  Is true. That is what it says.
• 1:53:46
  You're just trying to miss word it.
• 1:53:48
  No, it says it as it is written and then you go see where it's
• 1:53:51
  written. It's written in Malachi, which
• 1:53:53
  is long after the birth of the of the twins, long after the so
• 1:53:57
  he couldn't have said while they were in the belly.
• 1:54:00
  Stump. The whole purpose of the writing
• 1:54:02
  in that sentence is to establish that it was determined before
• 1:54:05
  they were born. That was the whole purpose of
• 1:54:06
  the context. Why don't you hear this?
• 1:54:10
  And it's written, and it's written in Malachi.
• 1:54:12
  It's not written in Genesis. Genesis.
• 1:54:14
  When the what is it Malachi written?
• 1:54:16
  The last book of the Old Testament.
• 1:54:18
  Stump, what is it that's written?
• 1:54:21
  Jacob I have loved. He's all hated.
• 1:54:25
  Finish the verse. Finish the verse.
• 1:54:28
  I had to look it up to get. While they were yet in their
• 1:54:30
  mother's womb, not. Having done any dinner, let me
• 1:54:33
  bring it. Up, but if him, that call is.
• 1:54:37
  Let me put it on the screen so. We don't have a Why did you
• 1:54:39
  stop? Halfway through the.
• 1:54:40
  Verse though, I think I know the answer.
• 1:54:43
  No, I think he's accurate though.
• 1:54:45
  I think that's combining two different verses, if I'm
• 1:54:47
  correct. He's gonna show it though, so
• 1:54:49
  we'll find out. There's two places that talk
• 1:54:51
  about. It but the one that.
• 1:54:52
  Mentions both of them side by side, I believe is Romans
• 1:54:54
  Chapter 9, yes? But no, he's not accurate.
• 1:55:03
  Let's see. Promise to come to Sarah?
• 1:55:10
  OK, this is what it says. Let me show it so we can see.
• 1:55:12
  Let me share my screen. Hold on one second.
• 1:55:26
  Darkness, you got us again. You got baited.
• 1:55:32
  Here it comes well. What I'm really interested in.
• 1:55:36
  Is the question to stump would be well, to both of you
• 1:55:40
  actually. So if, if, if Pike, if I can
• 1:55:42
  call you that. Sure.
• 1:55:44
  If Pike is right stump, how does this affect you, right?
• 1:55:50
  Like what does this change for you if he is right?
• 1:55:52
  And to to you Christian same. Same thing if he's right.
• 1:55:57
  What is this? What does this really change?
• 1:56:00
  And this is kind of like the theme of the night for me,
• 1:56:03
  Christian, if you've been listening right, like, yeah,
• 1:56:05
  sure. If evolution is true, how does
• 1:56:08
  it really change things for you? Does any of this really, when it
• 1:56:12
  comes down to it, derail like the belief?
• 1:56:15
  No, it doesn't derail the belief.
• 1:56:17
  It does. I mean, it would obviously
• 1:56:19
  affect your theological. View because.
• 1:56:21
  I read much of the Scriptures in the light of preordained will,
• 1:56:25
  and so they they may make a different kind of sense to me.
• 1:56:27
  If I didn't believe that that was a central theme.
• 1:56:29
  It wouldn't affect whether I believed in God or believed in
• 1:56:32
  the Bible, but it would certainly affect how I
• 1:56:33
  understand the plan of salvation and prophetical utterance and.
• 1:56:37
  Sort of the. Themes of prophecy.
• 1:56:39
  Generally, it would change my theology quite a bit.
• 1:56:42
  Mr. Pike, if you don't mind, I'd like to share a verse with you
• 1:56:45
  and get your opinion on it. Revelation 320.
• 1:56:48
  Behold, I stand at the door and knock.
• 1:56:51
  If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in
• 1:56:55
  to him and eat with him, and he with me.
• 1:56:58
  What do you get from that? It's a good verse.
• 1:57:04
  Did you have a specific question?
• 1:57:06
  No, it was just one your opinion what your view on it, I mean
• 1:57:09
  obviously from my perspective I. I do feel as though it's given
• 1:57:14
  man an option that God is. There I.
• 1:57:17
  Doubt that he had. What?
• 1:57:18
  You and I would consider an option.
• 1:57:19
  I think this is the the real crux of disagreement that some
• 1:57:23
  people have, and a lot of times you know people disagree.
• 1:57:25
  In terminologies, only when we say an option the brother asked
• 1:57:30
  the question earlier is there a difference in things being
• 1:57:33
  determined in the sense of being caused to happen that way or
• 1:57:37
  being known with a certainty that they would happen that way.
• 1:57:40
  And I'm just not so sure there's any material difference in those
• 1:57:43
  two options. The only difference that we're
• 1:57:45
  ascribing to it is whether we think it's fair or not.
• 1:57:48
  And enrollments Chapter 9 pulses.
• 1:57:50
  It doesn't matter what you think is fair, and so is.
• 1:57:53
  There a. Difference in in God saying it's
• 1:57:56
  going to be this way or God saying it's going to be this
• 1:57:58
  way. That's the way I hear that.
• 1:57:59
  I just I think those are just two sides of the exact same
• 1:58:02
  coin. Let me let me try something a
• 1:58:04
  little bit more on a simple basis, so I know that everybody
• 1:58:08
  would be able to jump in on this, but.
• 1:58:10
  Um, when Adam and Eve are faced with the tree and God is warning
• 1:58:14
  them, basically saying you are to not either the streets
• 1:58:17
  telling them not to do this, do you believe that God somehow set
• 1:58:21
  them forward to do it or were they actually given an option?
• 1:58:26
  Well, I don't think it's a dichotomy there.
• 1:58:29
  I mean obviously they were given an option, but I think the
• 1:58:31
  answer to the first question is still yes, it's it seems more
• 1:58:34
  like a, it's a bait and he I think it is through.
• 1:58:39
  But uh, yeah. I think it's like like a baby.
• 1:58:42
  You tell a baby not to do X. You know the baby's gonna do it,
• 1:58:44
  but you know well. But why get warning for?
• 1:58:53
  Because if you if you didn't give them the, you know.
• 1:58:48
  Why even bother giving warning if you're already knowledgeable
• 1:58:52
  that they're going to do this? If you didn't give them that
• 1:58:56
  knowledgeable that. They were going to do it.
• 1:58:59
  Well, no. I'm saying like if if God didn't
• 1:59:01
  tell them not to do it, then they no longer.
• 1:59:04
  Then there's no longer this. Uh uh, Predicet that?
• 1:59:09
  For them to be guilty of anything.
• 1:59:11
  So if they if they did it prior to God telling them, well, there
• 1:59:16
  was no, you know, this this established rule beforehand and
• 1:59:21
  so they're not guilty of anything.
• 1:59:24
  How's it affect the choice of Adam in the?
• 1:59:26
  Light of what? He said.
• 1:59:28
  I'm sorry. Stop.
• 1:59:29
  Go ahead, I was going to say. He said something that made me
• 1:59:34
  think about the situation again in a different way.
• 1:59:38
  If God had never pointed that tree out to them and said to
• 1:59:41
  stay away from it, the serpent would have had no power to tempt
• 1:59:44
  them. Because the Bible says sing gets
• 1:59:45
  its strength by the law. So the fact that he pointed it
• 1:59:48
  out to them in the 1st place is what gave the serpent the power
• 1:59:51
  to tempt them. They probably wouldn't have paid
• 1:59:53
  that tree any attention and in the parable.
• 1:59:55
  So to speak. If he had not done that.
• 1:59:58
  So it does seem as though you know.
• 2:00:00
  I don't think. Anybody here would say you?
• 2:00:02
  Know they were. Doing We're all in the same pay
• 2:00:04
  that he did. No, I disagree with that.
• 2:00:08
  I think as a parent, if I have a GUN in my closet, I'm going to
• 2:00:14
  teach my children not to go playing in my closet because
• 2:00:17
  there's something in there that can hurt them and I'm going to
• 2:00:20
  really go out of my way to instill that into them, right?
• 2:00:24
  I mean, for all of us who are parents, I think we would see
• 2:00:27
  that as the logical reason. It's not just that.
• 2:00:33
  Proverb. Oh, I I was going to say, and
• 2:00:35
  it's also it shows proverbs that you already acknowledge that
• 2:00:40
  something is dangerous or bad for your children.
• 2:00:43
  If you're going to warn them and tell them not to do that, then
• 2:00:46
  that must mean logically that you've left open parameters.
• 2:00:50
  An option cannot jump in. Sure.
• 2:00:58
  What do you have? Sir.
• 2:01:00
  Yeah, I was just going to say, I don't know if you've ever
• 2:01:03
  thought about it this way before, but there's verses in
• 2:01:07
  the scripture where it kind of like where it kind of seems that
• 2:01:11
  like God is lower than he really is.
• 2:01:16
  For example, like, like, let me go down to Sodom and good more
• 2:01:21
  to see whether they're doing such and such.
• 2:01:24
  And there's all kinds of verses like that.
• 2:01:27
  But it's it's just meant to. It's given mankind, it's
• 2:01:31
  speaking to men through men's words.
• 2:01:33
  And I think that the free will verses that you show are used in
• 2:01:37
  the same manner. God's speaking through time.
• 2:01:39
  He's not in time, but he has to speak to us through time.
• 2:01:42
  OK, sorry. There you go.
• 2:01:44
  Well, to go back and touch on the question of shouldn't God
• 2:01:49
  have put it in the safe somewhere that puts the blood on
• 2:01:52
  God's hands? And it's an inappropriate
• 2:01:55
  question. The appropriate question is why
• 2:01:58
  didn't Adam and Eve love God enough to be obedient when he
• 2:02:00
  gave them one commandment? The blood is on our hands.
• 2:02:06
  Well, that's the very definition of free will is something's
• 2:02:10
  there, your your God tells you not to touch it.
• 2:02:13
  And otherwise you got this nice paradise.
• 2:02:15
  You live in here, you're good. You still touch it.
• 2:02:17
  I mean, just like a law, right? They can't make a law.
• 2:02:20
  And I tell you that what the law is and then you break it and
• 2:02:22
  then they put you in jail for it.
• 2:02:23
  It has to be. You have to be the the law has
• 2:02:25
  to be proclaimed. Otherwise, how could it be a law
• 2:02:28
  if it's just like, OK, if you go 55 miles an hour, it's $1000
• 2:02:32
  ticket and you're going to jail, but then you don't tell nobody.
• 2:02:34
  They do it and they go to jail. Yeah, God's a righteous guy.
• 2:02:37
  We can't test his character exactly because I can't.
• 2:02:40
  Just like, let's say I walk into a room with a red button.
• 2:02:42
  I don't know what the red button does.
• 2:02:44
  I press the red button and it kills everything in the world.
• 2:02:47
  Well, I'm not guilty of anything because I don't know what the
• 2:02:50
  red button did. Hey man, you have to have
• 2:02:53
  knowledge. And and God having fore
• 2:02:55
  knowledge of what will happen in the future doesn't doesn't
• 2:02:57
  change man's free wheel choice to choose to eat that tree.
• 2:03:02
  That's. One of the reasons why I go
• 2:03:04
  towards compatibleism I I try to bring a simplified analogy of
• 2:03:10
  this. I don't know how many of you are
• 2:03:12
  gamers or whatever, but. We know that developers, they
• 2:03:15
  create the game, the parameters, the goals in which they want you
• 2:03:19
  to succeed at or you're going to fail depending on the enemy or
• 2:03:22
  bosses. But at the end of the day, you
• 2:03:25
  do have the choice to be able to go left and right, up and down.
• 2:03:28
  But it's kind of like that, that verse.
• 2:03:31
  What is it? Let me share it with you.
• 2:03:35
  That is right up here. OK, Proverbs 69, you're going to
• 2:03:39
  like it. Proverbs Guy.
• 2:03:40
  It's right there in Proverbs, the heart of man plans his way,
• 2:03:44
  but the Lord establishes the steps.
• 2:03:47
  And that right there is one of the reasons I'm a compatible
• 2:03:50
  list. I don't know what a compatible
• 2:03:57
  is. That it means that I believe
• 2:03:59
  that something. It means I believe some things
• 2:04:02
  are predetermined. Like I believe Jesus Christ and
• 2:04:05
  his walk and death and all this was predetermined and it was
• 2:04:09
  planned. But I also believe that God
• 2:04:11
  gives man options and basically parameters to work within the
• 2:04:17
  system and the program that's going on.
• 2:04:19
  I hate to use something like simulation.
• 2:04:23
  Well, Brett, I think it quite simply just means that you
• 2:04:26
  believe that determinism and free will are compatible, right?
• 2:04:29
  Like there's no, there's no friction for you in there.
• 2:04:32
  You figure, yeah out a way to to square that round pick.
• 2:04:35
  I've always liked what Piper, what Piper said.
• 2:04:39
  If any of you ever listen to him and God puts in into the world,
• 2:04:43
  you're absolutely guilty for it. And he is completely free of it.
• 2:04:48
  God then puts into the world. So.
• 2:04:51
  But but so, so. So This is why I lean towards a
• 2:04:55
  certain way when I read the book.
• 2:04:57
  Right? And when John Piper gets up
• 2:04:59
  there and says God puts it into the world, you're guilty of it
• 2:05:02
  and he's innocent for it. When righteous.
• 2:05:05
  Whatever. I forget what that actual quote
• 2:05:06
  was. I'm sure some of you may know,
• 2:05:08
  But that is why I'm gonna disagree with you Darth.
• 2:05:11
  Because when I read the book, I see it much differently than you
• 2:05:14
  obviously see it. Do you remember what?
• 2:05:16
  What was the tree? What was the name of the tree?
• 2:05:19
  The. Knowledge and.
• 2:05:22
  Good or evil? Exactly, knowledge.
• 2:05:24
  So you need knowledge in order to commit a sin, because without
• 2:05:29
  knowledge you don't know what the heck you're doing.
• 2:05:32
  You cannot be claimed guilty of anything and so you need first
• 2:05:36
  need have knowledge to commit a sin.
• 2:05:38
  Yes you do. You don't have to have
• 2:05:40
  knowledge. Yes, you do.
• 2:05:41
  OK, look, let's say a baby kills somebody.
• 2:05:45
  Do you take that baby to jail? That's not the same thing.
• 2:05:50
  The baby doesn't have knowledge, right?
• 2:05:52
  While to offer context, in the Hebrew law system that Moses
• 2:05:57
  implemented, there were offerings for sins that you knew
• 2:06:01
  you committed, and there were sins offerings for sins that you
• 2:06:04
  committed unwittingly. Well, look to to to to do.
• 2:06:11
  I think put this where it needs to go is simply this.
• 2:06:14
  Do you think that if if God didn't exist, sin would exist?
• 2:06:19
  If God didn't create, would sin exist if?
• 2:06:23
  God, Nothing would. That's correct.
• 2:06:27
  I agree. Right.
• 2:06:28
  So God absolutely put sin into it.
• 2:06:31
  There's no way of getting around that.
• 2:06:33
  Well, Scripture says sin is my one man must be done.
• 2:06:37
  So you. First say you you think.
• 2:06:41
  Right. This is.
• 2:06:41
  Let's go around the room and and and see where everybody thinks
• 2:06:44
  sin came from. And if and yeah, and if God
• 2:06:47
  actually puts. Next because he was trying to go
• 2:06:49
  to. The scripture says by one man
• 2:06:53
  sin into the world and through sin death.
• 2:06:56
  That's clear. God didn't put sin in the world.
• 2:06:58
  Man brought it into the world because he all he did was gave
• 2:07:01
  him an option. Right?
• 2:07:02
  This is knowledge, right? There's knowledge in the world
• 2:07:04
  of good and evil. This is how the world is.
• 2:07:05
  So there's something the world. So, Stump, you believe there's
• 2:07:09
  something in this world that God didn't create?
• 2:07:12
  I'm not saying, I just say he brought it into world.
• 2:07:16
  Create who created So OK, so where?
• 2:07:18
  Ultimately, who created sin? Sin is not something you create,
• 2:07:22
  it's something you do. So it's something that has been
• 2:07:25
  created does. It's not something that's
• 2:07:28
  something that exists in and of itself.
• 2:07:31
  You. Don't, no.
• 2:07:33
  That's not. It is.
• 2:07:35
  Something. Exists in and of itself.
• 2:07:37
  So what is? I mean, I agree with him to the
• 2:07:39
  point though, that sin is something you commit.
• 2:07:43
  But but that's like saying love right Without without not
• 2:07:46
  loving, there can't be loved because everything is loved and
• 2:07:48
  so what's that mean? It means nothing if it's can't
• 2:07:51
  rights in this there has to be a there has to be another side.
• 2:07:55
  That's what free Will's all about.
• 2:07:57
  But you can't have love. But you can't have love with
• 2:08:00
  without a person doing the loving.
• 2:08:02
  So you can't have love independent of mine.
• 2:08:06
  So we don't. So we don't get all tongue
• 2:08:08
  twisted as a possible darkness that you could define what you
• 2:08:11
  view sin as being before we continue the conversation.
• 2:08:16
  Yeah, answer what I thought sin was.
• 2:08:19
  I think sin is like this a a religious concept, but you can
• 2:08:23
  do bad things. So if you call that a sin, but
• 2:08:28
  the word sin is just something from the religion.
• 2:08:32
  So you don't actually believe it like?
• 2:08:33
  Sin in sin. Not the not the biblical sin.
• 2:08:37
  So what sense do you believe in sin?
• 2:08:39
  Is it you think you should say social construction?
• 2:08:41
  Murder someone that's like, bad, you know?
• 2:08:45
  So that certainly so you're just saying it's like legality
• 2:08:48
  whatever the government says, you know so it's whatever the
• 2:08:51
  government says is good or at the time like.
• 2:08:55
  Not necessarily. Sometimes the government tells
• 2:08:57
  you do some real bad stuff. But but.
• 2:09:00
  I guess what happens, I guess what happens to society or
• 2:09:03
  something, but I mean. The the government is
• 2:09:07
  representative of the society, you could say.
• 2:09:10
  Yeah, well, I think it's really thing about individuals, action.
• 2:09:14
  It's not really the society, more like what you do is whether
• 2:09:18
  it's good or bad, like because I want to be a Christian to know
• 2:09:23
  what's what's evil. Like I know, murder's wrong.
• 2:09:28
  No, no, no. We we don't know, think, agree.
• 2:09:30
  We don't all agree Murder is wrong because murder is a legal
• 2:09:34
  term. So the government thinks murder
• 2:09:37
  is wrong. And the government?
• 2:09:38
  The government can also think murder is not wrong.
• 2:09:43
  Hey propers, can we go back to the scripture?
• 2:09:45
  I never got to make the point. We just went on to other stuff
• 2:09:47
  and Christian Pipe conveniently lost.
• 2:09:50
  His juice on his wall, jokingly, jokingly.
• 2:09:53
  Flat footed Pike out there. Yeah, I'm.
• 2:09:56
  Sorry, he's a very fast runner. If I could this is Romans 9
• 2:10:02
  versus. Let's see, we can start at let's
• 2:10:05
  start at 10. And not only that, I'm sorry,
• 2:10:09
  not only this, but when Rebecca also that can see by one, even
• 2:10:13
  by our father Isaac, for the children being not yet born,
• 2:10:17
  either having done any good or evil.
• 2:10:20
  That the purpose of God according to election might
• 2:10:22
  stand not of works but of him that call it.
• 2:10:26
  It was said unto her the elders shall serve the younger.
• 2:10:29
  I just want to stop right there that will that's what was said
• 2:10:32
  when the when the twins weren't in there in her belly her wound
• 2:10:34
  whatever you want to call it. Then if you go on it says and it
• 2:10:38
  is and it is written. Jacob I have love at least I've
• 2:10:41
  hated So what the election people would do Will say, well
• 2:10:44
  that's that's what what God said while they're in his belly
• 2:10:46
  that's not that's not what it says.
• 2:10:47
  I said as it is written. And if you go to Malachi the
• 2:10:51
  first chapter, Malachi let me. I'm not going to play on screen.
• 2:10:53
  I'm going to read it so that I'm going to have to waste all that
• 2:10:55
  time. Malachi one says one versus one
• 2:11:01
  and I'll go down. And the burden of the word of
• 2:11:03
  the Lord is to Israel. By Malachi.
• 2:11:07
  I have loved you, said the Lord, yet you say, where has thou
• 2:11:10
  loved us? Was it not Esau?
• 2:11:13
  Jacob's brother said. The Lord Did.
• 2:11:15
  I love Jacob and I hated Esau. That's where it's written.
• 2:11:19
  So it's not it wasn't said while it was in the belly.
• 2:11:22
  So they're using a false interpretation of scripture to
• 2:11:25
  convince people that that it was said while I was in their belly.
• 2:11:29
  Like if they didn't do it, they're just babies.
• 2:11:30
  They haven't done anything. And and already got hated He saw
• 2:11:33
  already. No.
• 2:11:34
  Because he came out as a cardinal man.
• 2:11:36
  He saw we know this and Jacob was spiritual.
• 2:11:38
  I. Didn't know can I ask stump a
• 2:11:41
  question. For sure.
• 2:11:45
  So you know what? Why did God hate He saw then?
• 2:11:49
  Because he was carnal. Yeah, but like the verse right
• 2:11:52
  before that says, they were not born having done neither good or
• 2:11:56
  evil that the election might stand.
• 2:11:59
  Yeah, What? What then?
• 2:12:00
  You have to say what is the election?
• 2:12:01
  What the election is what those that are called respond to God.
• 2:12:06
  Respond to God. And he says he's predestined to
• 2:12:09
  conform to the image of his son. That's all.
• 2:12:12
  Election is God. I agree.
• 2:12:14
  You're going to answer the call. My call.
• 2:12:16
  You say yes, God. I want to know the truth.
• 2:12:18
  Tell me the truth before he needs you.
• 2:12:19
  Give yourself to the Lord and you believe in everything, and
• 2:12:22
  then God conforms you to the image of the sun.
• 2:12:24
  That's what predestination is. It's not a soul to hell or
• 2:12:28
  heaven. But but to be conformed to the
• 2:12:30
  image of the sun is to be saved. Amen.
• 2:12:34
  So once you accept that call, that election call, God conforms
• 2:12:38
  you. He works with you, right?
• 2:12:39
  That's why. No, Christians don't just stop
• 2:12:40
  sending. And they're all good, you know?
• 2:12:42
  I'm all good. No, it's a process.
• 2:12:44
  You could be. You're being conformed to the
• 2:12:45
  image of the sun. Right, which is salvation.
• 2:12:49
  Amen. So you're elected to be
• 2:12:51
  conformed to the image of of his Son, which is salvation,
• 2:12:54
  correct? Yeah, but that script says who
• 2:12:56
  he who who he called he did predestined.
• 2:12:59
  Who does he call? Calls all men everywhere to
• 2:13:02
  repent. He commands it actually says
• 2:13:04
  command. But I'm going to say call.
• 2:13:05
  I'm going to put that in his call.
• 2:13:06
  But he commands every all men. So he calls all men.
• 2:13:10
  He calls darkness. He calls Brett.
• 2:13:12
  He calls Doomslayer. He calls me.
• 2:13:14
  And do we respond? And if you respond, then you're
• 2:13:17
  the election and you're conform to the image of a son through a
• 2:13:20
  process. Mr. Stump, what do you get from
• 2:13:23
  Psalms 55? Go.
• 2:13:26
  Ahead and read it for me, please.
• 2:13:28
  It says God hates all workers of iniquity.
• 2:13:31
  Amen. There you go.
• 2:13:33
  So when you work iniquity, God hates you, right?
• 2:13:35
  But he still calls you. Yeah, right.
• 2:13:38
  Because we were yet in our sins. He died for us.
• 2:13:42
  So it's not that you know I hate him.
• 2:13:44
  That's it. It's over.
• 2:13:46
  But we were yet in our sins. Jesus died for us.
• 2:13:50
  He still calls us. He still died for us.
• 2:13:53
  Hey, so I think two things. One for stump.
• 2:13:55
  But Brett, I think something along the lines of like
• 2:13:58
  privation of God's will is what I would consider sin.
• 2:14:01
  And then? The reason that I may say it's
• 2:14:04
  something that was created is because it sounds a lot like
• 2:14:07
  Adam brought it into this world like it existed and he just kind
• 2:14:11
  of opened that box, right? And then to Stump's point, to me
• 2:14:17
  it seems like Jesus said I speak in parables.
• 2:14:20
  So that those. Not everyone will, will come.
• 2:14:24
  So that's another thing that when I read through the book
• 2:14:29
  total that even in the New Testament there's.
• 2:14:32
  This idea that that not everyone gets in right, like even Jesus
• 2:14:36
  was, was not pro everybody, right, like so it's it's odd to
• 2:14:40
  me when people say let hold like this very liberal view that
• 2:14:45
  everybody that asks gets in because there there are multiple
• 2:14:48
  instances that you guys are talking about And then even
• 2:14:51
  Jesus in the New Testament kind of confirms that it's not for
• 2:14:54
  everybody, right? Like.
• 2:14:55
  There's it's certain. It is something I've definitely
• 2:14:59
  put a lot of thought in. I was going to point out the
• 2:15:02
  Proverbs and the others in the room.
• 2:15:04
  Just yesterday I was watching a video where I was reminded of
• 2:15:08
  the story where Jesus is talking about the wheat and about how
• 2:15:12
  the enemy comes in and then basically puts weeds all in it.
• 2:15:17
  And the I guess it's mentioned as an analogy or metaphor where
• 2:15:22
  God says don't don't uproot the weeds because you'll also uproot
• 2:15:27
  the wheat as though it has to be there for a reason and just let
• 2:15:31
  it grow out. But do you guys remember what he
• 2:15:33
  says to do with the weeds after they're all grown out?
• 2:15:38
  Is this question leading to a nihilism?
• 2:15:41
  I believe it is. Brett, are you leading us?
• 2:15:44
  No, no it that is an interesting topic I do like to discuss, but
• 2:15:48
  no it it does appear to me as though God does separate what he
• 2:15:53
  sees from the get go what his children are and he wants to see
• 2:15:58
  the maturity of it, even though amongst the weeds.
• 2:16:02
  But it does appear to me that. Mr. Pike just might have some
• 2:16:07
  points and some of the things that he said there.
• 2:16:10
  I've had a real difficult time with the free will
• 2:16:12
  predestination arguments, but I'd love to hear what you guys
• 2:16:15
  think. Well, regarding the parables
• 2:16:19
  that you speak of, that it was meant for for some to to
• 2:16:22
  understand, not others. But remember, as I keep saying,
• 2:16:25
  God's Word is alive. It's not dead.
• 2:16:27
  So long as you're in that book, you can understand if you keep
• 2:16:31
  growing in God's Word. There's many parables that are
• 2:16:33
  or other things that I didn't understand the first 2-3 times
• 2:16:36
  read them, but after a while I understood them.
• 2:16:39
  So what's it meant for me? You're going to say it's
• 2:16:41
  predestined, right? It's predestined for you to
• 2:16:42
  understand that, But it's parables are teaching a teaching
• 2:16:46
  lesson to teach you a lesson about God's Kingdom.
• 2:16:49
  Well, the disciple, the disciples, later on they went to
• 2:16:53
  Jesus and they asked him. What did you mean by all this?
• 2:16:56
  And he actually got really extensive with them.
• 2:16:59
  He spelled it out for him, practically drew a picture.
• 2:17:02
  He said the weeds are basically the the children that are not
• 2:17:07
  mine. He's saying that their children
• 2:17:08
  of the devil, the enemy. So there are some that are set
• 2:17:12
  in place where it doesn't appear as though they have really too
• 2:17:16
  many options. The parameters are very low for
• 2:17:19
  them. We got we have to go to the
• 2:17:21
  other parable right where the sober goes out to Seoul.
• 2:17:24
  Hit some falls by the wayside, falls on the heart stoning
• 2:17:27
  ground some falls and then he explains what as soon as they
• 2:17:29
  understand, they get they have joy then the cares of the world
• 2:17:32
  spring up and it takes them away.
• 2:17:34
  So they still have that choice but he's trying to explain that
• 2:17:36
  the weeds you may you may grow into the weed but it's because
• 2:17:39
  you chose to go with the cares of the world and not follow God
• 2:17:42
  and be spiritual mind. I mean, we have to put all
• 2:17:45
  these. Things there, 1/3 of the angels
• 2:17:47
  even rebelled against him, right?
• 2:17:49
  I mean, you're dealing with a creation that obviously likes to
• 2:17:53
  rebel. The question then becomes, is it
• 2:17:57
  by design that these angels rebel?
• 2:18:00
  Is it by design that the man rebels?
• 2:18:03
  We don't know. No, that's just a consequence of
• 2:18:06
  free will, I think. Yeah, I.
• 2:18:08
  Agree with Dorothy with the free will.
• 2:18:13
  But then you're going to have to worry about the predestination.
• 2:18:18
  I mean, do you do you believe in a universal salvation?
• 2:18:24
  I believe that salvation is given to anybody who reaches for
• 2:18:28
  it, but I believe that it's a two person contract and you need
• 2:18:31
  both. I mean, do you, do you think God
• 2:18:35
  will, might give, or will give demons like forever?
• 2:18:41
  Never, never. Until they finally decide to
• 2:18:44
  change, or you think he eventually is, you know I am on
• 2:18:47
  the isolation time and just delete them.
• 2:18:54
  I don't believe. Anything is completely
• 2:18:56
  annihilated. But more to the point, if you're
• 2:19:18
  dealing with free will. I believe that once you have an
• 2:19:02
  existence, you leave a certain resonance pattern and that can
• 2:19:06
  never be destroyed unless God blinks you out of existence.
• 2:19:10
  Maybe he has a way that I don't know.
• 2:19:20
  Right. That has something to do with
• 2:19:23
  where you end up as a ping pong ball.
• 2:19:28
  That says something about the state of the matter in which we
• 2:19:31
  we inherit, right? So in this body for example, if,
• 2:19:36
  we can define what that state is.
• 2:19:39
  It'll give us. A pretty big leg up to answering
• 2:19:42
  this question. Justin, if you don't mind me
• 2:19:45
  asking, I'm going to bring up a very common passage.
• 2:19:48
  I'm sure everybody in here and know what I'm talking about, But
• 2:19:52
  basically he does not wish for anyone to perish.
• 2:19:56
  Surely you've heard something in that that context before.
• 2:20:00
  What do you think perish means? I believe that.
• 2:20:08
  Means an erasure of your consciousness.
• 2:20:15
  Anybody else have a definition of it?
• 2:20:19
  It may surprise some people. Goodness.
• 2:20:27
  Grape in their bacon off your plate or something.
• 2:20:30
  I mean, I believe the, I believe the, the, the entire and and how
• 2:20:36
  I can't even pronounce it. Analysts would say it's probably
• 2:20:40
  to die without salvation. It's it's to be put in the ruin,
• 2:20:47
  destruction. So why would it?
• 2:20:50
  Why? Why do you think Jesus would say
• 2:20:52
  something like that? Use a term that is defined as
• 2:20:55
  destruction or ruin for I have no clue.
• 2:21:04
  I. Kind of lean toward that
• 2:21:06
  annihilationism. I think.
• 2:21:08
  It has a lot of good points, but I'm not 100% on it.
• 2:21:13
  Yeah, I I understand what relation is too.
• 2:21:18
  Yeah, I guess so. No, I'm not saying I I know that
• 2:21:22
  some people, they feel like it's kind of black and white.
• 2:21:24
  The topic, they figure, well, what about torment?
• 2:21:27
  Is there any kind of pain or suffering?
• 2:21:30
  As far as I know, I don't know how long it takes for a soul or
• 2:21:33
  somebody's identity to actually be disintegrated or annihilated.
• 2:21:38
  There may be pain and suffering involved.
• 2:21:41
  I don't know the time it takes for a soul to actually, I don't
• 2:21:44
  know if it's five seconds or a Millennium.
• 2:21:46
  So that's one thing I think it's as important for people to think
• 2:21:50
  about. For some people who think that's
• 2:21:52
  the easy way out, I think it might.
• 2:21:56
  I think it might happen. I think annihilation might
• 2:22:00
  happen through consumption. So I think it is possible a
• 2:22:04
  demon to swallow off your soul and then it is broken down
• 2:22:08
  through this consumption and it just feeds into their power.
• 2:22:13
  How much, How much do you all? This is a question for
• 2:22:16
  everybody. How much do you all think
• 2:22:18
  personality plays into the way that you interpret certain
• 2:22:23
  theologies, right. Because it seems to me typically
• 2:22:26
  when I meet somebody that's either an annihilist or that's
• 2:22:30
  everybody gets in or holds these more liberal views of Scripture.
• 2:22:36
  It seems to me that they're more empathetic, right?
• 2:22:39
  Like nobody. Like they don't wanna believe
• 2:22:42
  that Jesus is gonna torture people forever and ever and
• 2:22:45
  ever. So the that's what I see.
• 2:22:48
  So I think personality plays a lot of part in the way that we
• 2:22:51
  use certain things. The same way that my personality
• 2:22:54
  plays a part when I read the book, I have no problem with
• 2:22:56
  with. With well.
• 2:22:58
  With Hold on one second. With any of this, because the
• 2:23:02
  way I was raised, my father loved to say to me, I brought
• 2:23:06
  you into this world, I'll take you out right like I was taught.
• 2:23:08
  Try not or do not try. Lots of different things push me
• 2:23:13
  to be how I am in the way that I don't have a problem with the
• 2:23:17
  authority that's in the Bible. Right.
• 2:23:20
  And. I think some people do.
• 2:23:22
  So they take a more liberal stance when they read certain
• 2:23:25
  scriptures, or they'll stand on certain scriptures.
• 2:23:27
  And to you all, how much do you think that personality types
• 2:23:30
  play into theologies you may hold or not hold?
• 2:23:34
  Well honestly I could probably say in the beginning, whenever I
• 2:23:39
  was looking into all this, there could.
• 2:23:41
  I will honestly say there was probably some selfish reasons
• 2:23:44
  because there are non believers that I love that I care about,
• 2:23:48
  that I'd take a bullet for. And to think that someone is
• 2:23:51
  going to be tortured for all eternity, that's for me, it was
• 2:23:56
  absolutely unbearable. So I'm being honest with you
• 2:23:58
  about that. But I didn't feel like it was
• 2:24:01
  enough just to say, well, something's untrue because I
• 2:24:04
  don't like the sound of it. I felt if I wanted to be logical
• 2:24:07
  and rational and I wanted to have a foundation based upon
• 2:24:10
  some kind of evidence, I need to do my research.
• 2:24:14
  And to me there I will say this, there are a couple verses that
• 2:24:18
  other Christians have given me that do kind of steer towards
• 2:24:22
  torment and eternal all this. But there's a lot of verses that
• 2:24:26
  say otherwise and seem very clear to me that annihilationism
• 2:24:30
  is the way. Yeah, I'll say this I I disagree
• 2:24:37
  with you. However, I pray you're right.
• 2:24:41
  Like, I mean I seer sincerely pray you're correct and not me.
• 2:24:46
  First I want to disagree. Like Jesus isn't the one doing
• 2:24:48
  the torturing. That's the demons.
• 2:24:49
  The demons hate humans as like because it's a racial thing to
• 2:24:53
  them. So like they're like I was
• 2:24:55
  talking about violation aspect of it.
• 2:24:58
  Darth, if you don't mind me asking, and you know I love you,
• 2:25:01
  I think you're a very original, unique type of guy.
• 2:25:03
  I totally dig you. But where in the Bible do you
• 2:25:07
  see where demons are actually tormenting people in the
• 2:25:09
  afterlife? It's OK to say you don't know I
• 2:25:17
  won't like take away your cookies.
• 2:25:19
  Me. Can I help?
• 2:25:23
  Is there any? Yeah, no, I actually heard those
• 2:25:27
  from a Catholic exorcist. So like once these Catholic
• 2:25:31
  exorcists talk to these demons, they'll they'll say they'll
• 2:25:35
  they'll let out some things out like, well, it's us doing the
• 2:25:39
  torturing because we hate you and and to them it's a racial
• 2:25:43
  thing. So it's like they think they're
• 2:25:44
  like they're superior, so they're they're technically
• 2:25:48
  supremacists. Oh, that's Ross, man.
• 2:25:52
  That's Ross. Can anybody in here?
• 2:25:54
  I mean, remember I've only been a a theist for a while there.
• 2:25:59
  Can anybody show me passages where it says that literally the
• 2:26:02
  demons are going to take turns, punt you around like a football
• 2:26:05
  or? Are doing terrible things to
• 2:26:07
  you, A. Lot of the demon stuff comes
• 2:26:09
  from Dante's Inferno well. There you go.
• 2:26:15
  Yeah, I don't think actually. Actually Scripture says if I
• 2:26:18
  could read a Revelation 14, this is where he might be mixed up.
• 2:26:22
  1410 it says then shall, I'm sorry.
• 2:26:26
  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is
• 2:26:29
  poured out without mixing into the cup of his indignation, and
• 2:26:32
  he shall be tormented with fire and grinstone.
• 2:26:34
  In the presence of the holy angels.
• 2:26:36
  In the presence of the Lamb. So these these angels are holy
• 2:26:39
  angels. That's 4 million.
• 2:26:42
  So Holy angels, we're going to. Be the torturing.
• 2:26:48
  If I could interrupt for just a second, I mean still the hand of
• 2:26:51
  God, just the. Grief.
• 2:26:53
  In God. So I think Brett was the only
• 2:26:56
  one that I think actually answered the question and I'm
• 2:27:00
  cool if you guys don't want to answer it.
• 2:27:02
  Proverbs, you kind of answered it, but not really.
• 2:27:05
  You just said you hope Brett's right and you're not.
• 2:27:08
  But the question on the table that Brett actually gave the
• 2:27:11
  answer to was how do you, how much, how much do you think your
• 2:27:16
  personality affects the way that you see scripture and that you
• 2:27:20
  read scripture? Because we all can agree that
• 2:27:22
  you can stand on multiple scriptures to anything and.
• 2:27:26
  And the reason why people stand on different scriptures, I
• 2:27:30
  think, have to do with several reasons, one of them being their
• 2:27:32
  personalities. Whether you're more empathetic
• 2:27:34
  towards people, whether you're more conservative, whether
• 2:27:37
  you're more liberal, whether you're whether you're more, I
• 2:27:43
  guess you know, whether you like poetry, right?
• 2:27:46
  Like I've had people that think that.
• 2:27:48
  Anyway, all that aside, my question on the table for
• 2:27:51
  everyone. Is how much do you think your
• 2:27:53
  personality plays a part in the way that you interpret scripture
• 2:27:56
  and hold certain theologies? Darkness, I do want to I do want
• 2:28:00
  to remind you that I have only been a theist for some many
• 2:28:04
  years and Proverbs I, and I say this from the bottom of my
• 2:28:08
  heart, is more educated than a lot of the biblical stances and
• 2:28:11
  myself. So before people jump on it and
• 2:28:14
  go, oh wow, that you mean I just get blinked out of the existence
• 2:28:18
  and that's act. Listen to everybody else first
• 2:28:22
  before you make your decision on that.
• 2:28:25
  Well, then to me, it's not about a decision, Brett.
• 2:28:28
  It's about the answer that you gave that you said when I read
• 2:28:31
  the book, it's on this particular part is
• 2:28:34
  uncomfortable. So I'm not sure how, but I have
• 2:28:37
  to take a if I care about truth, I have to read the book for what
• 2:28:41
  it says. And that's a great answer in my
• 2:28:43
  opinion, because you addressed exactly what I was talking
• 2:28:45
  about. Right, Because this isn't about
• 2:28:47
  what theological position is actually right, but it's about
• 2:28:52
  the way that we when we read things about we we project our
• 2:28:57
  feelings into something because the Bible is very good at us
• 2:29:01
  being able to. Again, if I'm more empathetic, I
• 2:29:04
  can read the Bible much differently than someone that is
• 2:29:06
  a less empathetic right. I mean, can I answer your
• 2:29:09
  darkness? Right.
• 2:29:10
  I think most people do. How much people like think about
• 2:29:14
  what they feel like the Bible should say.
• 2:29:17
  That's how we make. Sure it is.
• 2:29:21
  Oh, sorry. I thought you were done.
• 2:29:23
  I was going to say darkness. I'm not sure you said something
• 2:29:27
  about empathetic or whatever. I believe that Proverbs is just
• 2:29:31
  as empathetic on a person's soul as myself.
• 2:29:35
  It's just that we have a different view on what the
• 2:29:38
  consequences might be. But I I think that he cares just
• 2:29:42
  as much as I do, and it probably brings tears to his eyes
• 2:29:46
  imagining what may happen to a person if they don't get right
• 2:29:49
  with God. Go ahead.
• 2:29:54
  Yeah. So to to answer and yeah, you're
• 2:29:58
  pretty pretty on spot, Brett. To answer your question,
• 2:30:02
  darkness, I think that might apply to a lot of people, but
• 2:30:06
  for me personally, I think it is almost opposite because I'm a
• 2:30:11
  very compassionate person and I love everyone or at least I try
• 2:30:16
  and I'm forgiving. But when it comes to stuff like
• 2:30:21
  eternal damnation, even though I would love it to be where last
• 2:30:27
  minute God changes his mind and he's like okay, you guys can get
• 2:30:30
  into heaven too, but you're going to be like in a lower
• 2:30:33
  class or something. I would love that to be the
• 2:30:35
  case, because I'm pretty sure my brother's going to burn in hell.
• 2:30:40
  I don't think he was saved when he passed away.
• 2:30:43
  I pray I'm wrong, but I there's a lot of loved ones that have
• 2:30:47
  passed away I would love to spend eternity with, but the
• 2:30:50
  fact is, I don't think I will. I think they'll have a very,
• 2:30:53
  very grim and dark and horrible eternity proverbs.
• 2:30:57
  This is. This is a beautiful example.
• 2:30:59
  Now why do? You.
• 2:31:00
  Think because I wasn't saying anyone's unempathetic.
• 2:31:04
  So what makes you? See that scripture that way?
• 2:31:09
  Why do you think? Because.
• 2:31:11
  What? Do you value?
• 2:31:12
  Let's say differently than maybe bread or someone that reads
• 2:31:16
  that, just the book differently. What is your personality type
• 2:31:21
  that right? So like, why do you read the
• 2:31:23
  book differently than a lot of people?
• 2:31:24
  That's what we're getting at. And how much your personality
• 2:31:26
  drives that because something inside you says, man, I really
• 2:31:30
  am empathetic to these people that are going to burn in hell
• 2:31:33
  forever, but because of X. When I read the book, I know
• 2:31:38
  they're going to burn in hell forever.
• 2:31:40
  What is that X? What is that personality trait
• 2:31:43
  that that you read the book differently than someone else?
• 2:31:47
  I think it might be an urgency I feel to try to get every soul I
• 2:31:52
  can, because I do believe hell is eternal and that kind of
• 2:31:57
  motivates me to win more souls and they affect each other
• 2:32:01
  inadvertently. I I can't explain it beyond
• 2:32:04
  that, but because I believe hell is eternal, that that really
• 2:32:09
  drives me even more. And I think maybe if
• 2:32:13
  annihilationism was accurate instinctively, believers like me
• 2:32:18
  wouldn't have as much of a drive if we thought, well, they're
• 2:32:22
  just going to burn for a few days or a few thousand years and
• 2:32:25
  then it'll be done. But for my belief, it's forever.
• 2:32:29
  And forever is a long time. See, I'm the opposite I hope you
• 2:32:35
  get. To 111 second one.
• 2:32:37
  One second, dude. So proverbs, when you, when you
• 2:32:41
  said all that, you never said why you think they're gonna burn
• 2:32:43
  forever. That's what we're looking for,
• 2:32:45
  right? Like because you read the book
• 2:32:48
  differently than a a person that thinks everybody gets in and you
• 2:32:52
  think literally like somebody else that that's a you know I
• 2:32:56
  forget what the word is for somebody that thinks everybody
• 2:32:58
  gets in right. That asks or or whatever.
• 2:33:01
  But you don't seem to read the book like that.
• 2:33:03
  That's what I'm asking. Why do you think people burn
• 2:33:05
  forever? Well, for one thing, I'm
• 2:33:08
  messianic on my dad's side and the Jews have an excellent
• 2:33:13
  record of history going back to Moses in the common belief in
• 2:33:18
  Judaism has always been with the Orthodox.
• 2:33:22
  Anyways that. I can't hear you.
• 2:33:25
  We're in the dentist office. Proverbs.
• 2:33:28
  Oh, I'm shit, I'm so sorry I didn't mute.
• 2:33:30
  Hey, Proverbs, Awesome. But why?
• 2:33:33
  So do you think? Because your personality is more
• 2:33:35
  geared towards a historical reading, or is that what you're
• 2:33:38
  saying? Because I'm asking for that
• 2:33:40
  personality trait that makes you read scripture like you do.
• 2:33:45
  Like what's When you read scripture, there's something
• 2:33:47
  that drives you reading it? No.
• 2:33:51
  So here's what it is, is. When I read the text, I
• 2:33:54
  acknowledge that there are scripture verses that point
• 2:33:57
  towards eternal damnation. And there are scripture verses
• 2:34:01
  that Stump and Brett have pointed out to me that I've seen
• 2:34:04
  before even that point towards annihilationism.
• 2:34:10
  So what I also go off of is the tradition that we have passed
• 2:34:14
  down in the Jewish belief, Judaism, but as well as
• 2:34:20
  Christianity going back to the first generation believers and
• 2:34:24
  on, they have always been in agreement on that as far as the
• 2:34:28
  majorities go. Can we, can we, can we?
• 2:34:32
  Look at what Scripture says about this.
• 2:34:34
  It says God's word is is is not of anybody's private
• 2:34:39
  interpretation, right? It says let God be true and
• 2:34:42
  every man a liar. So, so yes, we do bring our own
• 2:34:45
  perspective of life and the scripture.
• 2:34:46
  But if we're really seeking the truth, we have to understand
• 2:34:49
  that when scripture says that no part of God, where does any
• 2:34:53
  private interpretation right that there is a truth to God's
• 2:34:57
  word? We should seek that truth
• 2:34:59
  regardless of what our feelings are.
• 2:35:00
  I mean I've changed my mind on things.
• 2:35:02
  I'm just discussing people on the show.
• 2:35:04
  I'm, I'm sure others have as well, just discussing scripture.
• 2:35:07
  So if we're honest with ourselves.
• 2:35:09
  It's not for a private interpretation.
• 2:35:11
  We can't. We have to find the truth, and
• 2:35:12
  there is a truth and we have to find it that that should be the
• 2:35:16
  seeker of God's word. Seek that truth.
• 2:35:23
  I agree. I.
• 2:35:25
  Was going to say that's where I found myself.
• 2:35:27
  I was, you know, like I said in the beginning, it was for the
• 2:35:31
  selfish reasons. But I realized that I was
• 2:35:34
  putting an obstacle in front of myself.
• 2:35:36
  Realize just because I don't like something or I don't like
• 2:35:39
  the way something sounds that doesn't make it true or false, I
• 2:35:43
  need to do the research and then I got into the theology and this
• 2:35:47
  is what I came up with. But like I said, I'm new at
• 2:35:50
  this. I'm learning all the time.
• 2:35:52
  I'm still the student, but what's interesting about you,
• 2:35:55
  Brett, is that you had everything to lose and at the
• 2:36:01
  time you had to feel nothing to gain.
• 2:36:03
  Now, as a believer, you, you see there's a lot to gain.
• 2:36:06
  But at the time you're giving up a lot, right?
• 2:36:08
  Because you're one of the number one ranked atheist Youtubers.
• 2:36:13
  You have a gigantic audience. You have a big following.
• 2:36:16
  I imagine you have donations coming in left and right.
• 2:36:19
  You gave up a lot when you begin to believe in theism.
• 2:36:25
  Well, there there was a lot of the thing that affected me.
• 2:36:29
  The most was I did not realize that people based their
• 2:36:34
  friendship aren't what it was that I labeled myself.
• 2:36:38
  I lost a lot of people who were nonbelievers or claimed to be
• 2:36:42
  critical thinkers. They no longer wanted to be my
• 2:36:45
  friend whenever they found out that I believed in God.
• 2:36:48
  Now, nowadays, there's a lot of atheists who are more nicer,
• 2:36:51
  they're more respectful. They got this attitude of I
• 2:36:54
  don't care if you believe in God, I'll be your friend and all
• 2:36:56
  that. But back then, for whatever
• 2:36:58
  reason, the label was important to people and they seen me as a
• 2:37:02
  mouthpiece. See, the label is so important
• 2:37:07
  to me because I was. I was hoping eternal suffering
• 2:37:11
  was going to be true. Because I I do think you get
• 2:37:14
  what you freaking deserve. And and people like, I don't
• 2:37:18
  know, Christopher Hitchens. So you hope?
• 2:37:21
  I hope he's burning. I hope he's suffering.
• 2:37:23
  But I know that God, it's probably gonna have mercy on him
• 2:37:26
  and that, you know, annihilate him and free them from their
• 2:37:30
  suffering. Why do you hope?
• 2:37:33
  Somebody that's a skeptic is burning forever because they
• 2:37:37
  don't believe in Jesus that that not because they're not because
• 2:37:40
  they were a skeptic. It's because they knew they had
• 2:37:43
  sufficient evidence, all their criteria is met and they simply
• 2:37:47
  made a choice so. Hope that the billions of people
• 2:37:53
  burning in hell are burning in hell.
• 2:37:55
  You hope not anyone. That never.
• 2:37:58
  Believed in Jesus, Burns in hell.
• 2:38:00
  Not the people who didn't believe.
• 2:38:01
  I'm saying the people who chose, who chose to be ignorant little
• 2:38:05
  children. It's the.
• 2:38:05
  It's the. Same.
• 2:38:06
  It's the same. It's the same exact thing.
• 2:38:09
  And gentlemen, when we talk about personality traits, this
• 2:38:12
  is a prime example, right? This has nothing to do with the
• 2:38:14
  Bible or anything. Else just he just wants.
• 2:38:16
  To literally hope people suffer. But Brett, to your.
• 2:38:20
  I'm saying Bret, to your. So look, dude, you're you're
• 2:38:24
  just not worth time. But Brett, to your point, you
• 2:38:28
  can tell me don't be like that. You just disagree with like,
• 2:38:32
  call me I'm wrong, no? No.
• 2:38:33
  No. Anyone that says you hope
• 2:38:35
  someone burns in hell for choosing not to believe in
• 2:38:38
  anything. Wait, why am I wrong?
• 2:38:39
  Why am I wrong? I.
• 2:38:40
  Didn't say I didn't say you were wrong, did I?
• 2:38:43
  Good so. So Bret takes me, Brett, to your
• 2:38:46
  point. How many like so for the the So
• 2:38:50
  Brett, to your point for the biggest atheist that Proverbs
• 2:38:55
  describes. I bet you gain a lot from
• 2:38:59
  becoming a theist, right? It's not like you have a lot to
• 2:39:02
  lose. I'm not saying you didn't have
• 2:39:04
  anything to lose becoming a theist.
• 2:39:07
  But there's definitely a lot to gain.
• 2:39:08
  Like you you have lots of atheists on YouTube talk about
• 2:39:11
  like man, if I converted right, like how big my channel grew
• 2:39:16
  just to bring up that I I'm not saying that's why you did it or
• 2:39:18
  anything nefarious like that. I'm just saying when you do talk
• 2:39:21
  about like ohh well you've got everything to lose is the
• 2:39:23
  biggest atheist. I don't think it's that simple
• 2:39:26
  right? Because there are lots of
• 2:39:27
  atheists that are like Ohh man, look at all the money I can make
• 2:39:29
  if I if I switch teams. No, it's it was.
• 2:39:34
  And I've talked to Proverbs about this privately.
• 2:39:37
  It's quite a it was actually very, very painful and and did
• 2:39:41
  feel like a tear away. I used to be in a position where
• 2:39:45
  non believers were able to call me on the phone and because they
• 2:39:48
  believed I shared the same label with them, we could talk about
• 2:39:51
  personal stuff and you know, we could help each other through
• 2:39:54
  our day. But once they thought I was
• 2:39:57
  religious, I mean. I got called everything from
• 2:40:00
  retard to being hit on the head with a rock or Damascus moment
• 2:40:04
  and a lot of these people that I enjoyed, these close knit
• 2:40:08
  relationships that just went away.
• 2:40:10
  And yeah, that's that's a lot. I I don't know if anybody's ever
• 2:40:14
  experienced that that, but it is.
• 2:40:16
  It's painful when people you care about take a dump on you
• 2:40:20
  just over, you know, a change of thought or idea.
• 2:40:25
  Yeah, the scripture said. What does the profit demand to
• 2:40:28
  gain? The whole world, but in the end
• 2:40:30
  lose the soul. So you got a whole lot to gain
• 2:40:33
  by believing in the truth. Just like, for instance, the the
• 2:40:38
  perspective of evolution, the model, whatever you want to call
• 2:40:41
  it, where does it? Where does it end?
• 2:40:43
  In the end, what does it lead to?
• 2:40:44
  Death. Right, Death.
• 2:40:45
  That's it. Death.
• 2:40:47
  Where does? Where does?
• 2:40:48
  If we're right and we have the truth, what does our life lead
• 2:40:51
  to? Life everlasting.
• 2:40:54
  I mean, it's that simple. You got the whole world.
• 2:40:56
  You could give that away and gain life.
• 2:40:59
  Save yourself? I mean, do do you think there's
• 2:41:03
  going to be a flesh and blood in heaven?
• 2:41:07
  No. Scripture says flesh and.
• 2:41:09
  Blood and every Kingdom of heaven.
• 2:41:12
  So it's going to be all purely spiritual, right?
• 2:41:14
  It's going to be a glorified body.
• 2:41:16
  There's scripture says there's celestial, which means like
• 2:41:19
  heavenly bodies, and there's terrestrial bodies like we have
• 2:41:21
  here on earth and this bondage we're in and we're going to have
• 2:41:23
  the terrestrials like Jesus Christ has now.
• 2:41:26
  I'm just wondering because like. So it's not going to be like
• 2:41:30
  we're not going to look at the angels like a bunch of eyes.
• 2:41:33
  And it's just kind of like Aldridge horror you could say no
• 2:41:39
  scripture says that I have not seen her ears have not heard
• 2:41:43
  what God has prepared for us. We're hey, we said it's also
• 2:41:46
  going to be coheritance with Jesus Christ and if Jesus Christ
• 2:41:48
  is God the Son of God we're his sons and we've been inherit all
• 2:41:52
  things could you imagine? You can't.
• 2:41:54
  You can't imagine what it's going to be like this, this.
• 2:41:56
  Roughly things mean nothing. Nothing on the same thing.
• 2:41:59
  No, I'm just wondering if it's like if that existence is like
• 2:42:01
  made of flesh and bone or is it like a spiritual and a spiritual
• 2:42:06
  kind of body? Yeah, we don't know what that
• 2:42:08
  glorified body is because we their experience that in our
• 2:42:12
  knowledge as carnal beans. But I believe that when says
• 2:42:15
  could be glorified, there's no more pain, no more suffering.
• 2:42:17
  In fact, scripture calls her by now vile and corrupted, right?
• 2:42:21
  This, this, this corruption interruption.
• 2:42:23
  Vying. Corrupted.
• 2:42:24
  Vying. The scripture says the violent I
• 2:42:27
  have to. Disagree.
• 2:42:28
  Well, God great. That's the body I'm saying.
• 2:42:31
  Scripture says that, not me. I'm not making this up if you
• 2:42:34
  need. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to
• 2:42:36
  just, I'm gonna say that's a perversion of the Bible.
• 2:42:40
  Well, I could let me pull up the verses.
• 2:42:41
  Why you talk about it. And then?
• 2:42:42
  Look, I I agree with you, I agree with you.
• 2:42:46
  But I think it's a perversion to say such things.
• 2:42:48
  Oh, you don't believe the Bible is interesting?
• 2:42:50
  No, I don't do the whole thing. Oh, OK, All right.
• 2:42:52
  That's understandable. I.
• 2:42:54
  I I think he's saying he interprets it different.
• 2:42:57
  No. He says he wasn't a believer
• 2:42:58
  like Jesus Christ, right? He has these, he said of little
• 2:43:01
  gods and. No, I believe that's right.
• 2:43:04
  Actually, you, you're a theist, but you're not a Christian,
• 2:43:07
  right? Yeah.
• 2:43:08
  So I would believe there is Jesus.
• 2:43:10
  But I would also agree with the Muslims when they say the Bible
• 2:43:13
  is corrupted. So are you Muslim?
• 2:43:16
  No, I think they're right. Oh, you know, Jesus is the word
• 2:43:21
  of God, right? Scripture says Jesus is the word
• 2:43:23
  of God, right? Made flesh.
• 2:43:25
  So if there's no Jesus, then it's corrupted.
• 2:43:27
  How could Jesus be corrupted? Sure, you can say Jesus is the
• 2:43:30
  word of God, but you can't say the Bible is the Word of God.
• 2:43:34
  Well, it's not the word of God. Darth, if you don't mind me, ask
• 2:43:38
  if you don't mind me asking, would you be able to give
• 2:43:40
  specifics? You're saying, well, the Muslims
• 2:43:43
  say this, you agree with it, but what exactly do you think is
• 2:43:46
  corrupt? I think I don't buy into the
• 2:43:49
  Trinity. Neither do I.
• 2:43:53
  So that makes two of us. I think there's one God and the
• 2:43:56
  other ones are his aspects Spirit and spirit in his word or
• 2:43:59
  the aspects of God Not not individual persons like
• 2:44:02
  Catholics believe. So, like, you're like a
• 2:44:04
  motorist. I don't like to put terms on
• 2:44:08
  myself. I'll explain it.
• 2:44:09
  God. There's God the Father, One God.
• 2:44:12
  This is his word, Jesus Christ. And there's his Holy Spirit.
• 2:44:15
  These are aspects of God. They're not.
• 2:44:16
  They're not three different people walking around like
• 2:44:19
  you're not going to have three gods in one room, like 123.
• 2:44:22
  Yeah, OK with modalism. I'm OK with modalism.
• 2:44:25
  But I think the Christians don't like modalism.
• 2:44:27
  Well, I'm a Christian and I like it.
• 2:44:31
  Yeah, I think that's the most rational version of the Trinity,
• 2:44:34
  but they think it's heresy. I'm having trouble pinning down
• 2:44:38
  exactly what your belief is, Darth.
• 2:44:41
  I'm a polytheist. So you believe in many you
• 2:44:47
  believe in many gods. Yeah, so I would say that Jesus
• 2:44:52
  is this like literally the Son, so it He is not the Father.
• 2:44:57
  And you do believe in the Father, but you also believe in
• 2:45:00
  other gods. Along with them is what you're
• 2:45:02
  getting at. Yeah, so because like because if
• 2:45:07
  you're gonna say Jesus is God and the Father is also God,
• 2:45:13
  which or the same God? You're gonna just say that
• 2:45:16
  there's like the dove is also God, because dove once at one
• 2:45:21
  point God took the form of a dove.
• 2:45:24
  No, not God. His Holy Spirit took the form of
• 2:45:26
  a guy. Well, you're still gonna have to
• 2:45:28
  include the dove either way. Well, if you if you believe, if
• 2:45:31
  you believe that in three persons of the God hit persons.
• 2:45:34
  And then the dove would have to be like a I've shown this
• 2:45:36
  picture before, like a man sitting on Jesus's shoulders or
• 2:45:39
  his head or something. That's ridiculous.
• 2:45:41
  It's his spirit. Yeah, but it would still be
• 2:45:44
  included. So now you got a quad Trinity or
• 2:45:47
  a quad. Let me ask you something.
• 2:45:49
  I'm speaking to you through a computer and I don't even I
• 2:45:52
  don't I you know your name says Darth, but I don't see you or
• 2:45:55
  anything. Your Darth is your word.
• 2:45:58
  You as well that can I say that your word that you're speaking
• 2:46:01
  to me. Although I don't see you or no,
• 2:46:02
  I just hear it come to my ears. Is that you?
• 2:46:06
  Yeah, that's my word. There's.
• 2:46:07
  There you go. But the thing?
• 2:46:10
  So what I'm that's something I do.
• 2:46:11
  It's not something. What is Jesus is what something
• 2:46:15
  is. That's it's not what's it's not
• 2:46:17
  what God is doing. So, Darth, if you don't mind me
• 2:46:21
  asking, and I think Adam put out a really good question there,
• 2:46:24
  can we get into a few specifics? You definitely say that you
• 2:46:28
  believe in the father, You believe in Jesus.
• 2:46:31
  Do you also believe in a form of Allah?
• 2:46:34
  Do you believe in any of the Pagan deities?
• 2:46:36
  Would you be able to name them? Did you guys hear me?
• 2:46:44
  Did I vanish? That was I reverse.
• 2:46:46
  No, I heard you. I was waiting for Darth to
• 2:46:48
  answer. Darth, are you still alive over
• 2:46:55
  there? You're not having convenient
• 2:46:57
  technical issues, are you, brother?
• 2:47:00
  Inconvenient. Wink Wink.
• 2:47:03
  I hear you, Darth. You know, I beg you, I'm just
• 2:47:07
  trying to understand you better. And I'm sure some of the people
• 2:47:09
  in here want to get to know you a little bit better.
• 2:47:11
  Well, I would, I'd like to ask the panel, because we all know
• 2:47:14
  how I obviously feel and I never meant words with it, right?
• 2:47:18
  Especially somebody like that. But I'd be interested in how you
• 2:47:21
  all feel about someone that hopes that anyone that chooses
• 2:47:26
  not to believe just because of that particular choice is going
• 2:47:30
  to be tortured forever. Well, you already know where I'm
• 2:47:35
  at on that darkness. But like I said, I'm open minded
• 2:47:38
  to hearing other theological positions, aren't it?
• 2:47:46
  I I can understand some points some people make, like if you
• 2:47:51
  feel like somebody like atheist Joseph Stalin, who you know,
• 2:47:55
  tormented and and murdered people and tortured priests and
• 2:47:58
  all that deserves a longer punishment.
• 2:48:00
  I get it. I heard what what Darth was
• 2:48:03
  saying earlier, but. What about young people who are
• 2:48:06
  rebellious? Does anybody believe in any form
• 2:48:09
  of age of accountability in here?
• 2:48:12
  No, let me, let me let me rephrase.
• 2:48:17
  Let me rephrase that real quick for for you.
• 2:48:19
  Guys, hold on. Hold on, regardless of
• 2:48:21
  theological belief. Guys, we've got to stop cutting
• 2:48:26
  each other off. We got like three people trying
• 2:48:29
  to talk at a time. Stumps been cut off twice and
• 2:48:32
  doom has been cut off. We got to.
• 2:48:35
  Try to wait to see if anybody else is also trying to speak
• 2:48:40
  dim. What were you saying earlier?
• 2:48:41
  And then we'll go to stump and then we'll go to darkness.
• 2:48:45
  I think it's sociopathic to which people suffer forever.
• 2:48:55
  Stump, Yeah, I mean, everybody just tells to their opinion,
• 2:48:58
  right? I mean, it's opinion, that's
• 2:48:59
  all. It's not the truth.
• 2:49:01
  Now if he would just say, like some people say you're going to
• 2:49:04
  burn forever, that's different, right?
• 2:49:05
  The scripture says, I don't believe it says that, but I
• 2:49:08
  mean, he has opinion. I mean, they just said right
• 2:49:10
  with me, right? Like I don't want to hear that.
• 2:49:12
  That's not for me. But I'm not angry at him.
• 2:49:14
  I mean, I don't wish that Hitler burned forever.
• 2:49:18
  I don't wish the worst people in history burned forever.
• 2:49:21
  I I don't want to put that on anyone.
• 2:49:25
  I think it's horrific, and I certainly could have never
• 2:49:28
  imagined wanting it or desiring it.
• 2:49:31
  That's just. To me, it's heartbreaking.
• 2:49:36
  No, I'm good with it. Here's my justification.
• 2:49:40
  If let's, let's say coincidental.
• 2:49:43
  Yeah, let's say say in the atheist one, what do you think
• 2:49:47
  they're going to do to us? They're going to do the exact
• 2:49:50
  same thing to us, and they would enjoy it.
• 2:49:53
  To who? No, no, no, no, no.
• 2:49:57
  You know, no, not the theists. You know what we do to people
• 2:50:00
  like Ukraine that have no idea what they?
• 2:50:02
  Do they put us in the Chamber? That have you're just you're
• 2:50:07
  just delusional, right? Like we laugh at people like you
• 2:50:10
  because you have no idea what you believe, much less I mean
• 2:50:15
  any of this other stuff like it's.
• 2:50:17
  I agree with. With doom, right?
• 2:50:43
  I think that you. Like, that's just that, because
• 2:50:22
  I wasn't asking what theological position you guys hold, right?
• 2:50:26
  Like if you think I'm talking about just what does that do?
• 2:50:29
  Like to you as a person when somebody says, you know, because
• 2:50:33
  they disagree with XY or ZI want to hurt them, right?
• 2:50:37
  That that's what that's what this dude's saying.
• 2:50:40
  But as far as, like, what atheists do you see?
• 2:50:45
  Do you believe the same thing? You categorize somebody's mind
• 2:50:49
  like that. Seems like that.
• 2:50:52
  Seems a little socio lot like like this.
• 2:50:55
  What are you getting at? How do you know the inner
• 2:50:58
  workings of Dark's mind? There's dark mind.
• 2:51:00
  You're talking about I don't need to, he told us.
• 2:51:02
  He told us that he hopes if people choose not to believe in
• 2:51:06
  whatever ridiculous version of polytheism he believes in, he
• 2:51:11
  hopes they'd burn in hell for eternity.
• 2:51:14
  That's what we're talking about. We're not talking about me
• 2:51:16
  trying to like figure out what he believes or any of that.
• 2:51:18
  He literally told us and to take the view of you want to.
• 2:51:23
  And Proverbs said it best when people say they desire to see
• 2:51:28
  other people harmed or hurt because of a choice they make,
• 2:51:33
  right? Like.
• 2:51:34
  And that choice isn't hurting other people.
• 2:51:37
  Man, that's that's tough. That's what we're talking about.
• 2:51:41
  Wait, your choice isn't hurting other people?
• 2:51:45
  So I don't believe one is a choice.
• 2:51:47
  We can get into that. But let's just say I grant for
• 2:51:50
  whatever ridiculous bullshit you believe in, that it's a choice,
• 2:51:53
  correct? If I choose not to believe, if I
• 2:51:56
  choose not to believe Jesus is God, what harm does that?
• 2:52:01
  Do to people around you? Maybe none, but it does a great
• 2:52:07
  deal of harm to yourself. Hold on.
• 2:52:09
  He doesn't believe Jesus, so don't.
• 2:52:12
  I mean, whatever. I don't want to tie Christianity
• 2:52:15
  into, you know, this. What is his opinion?
• 2:52:18
  But that's not that's Christian perspective.
• 2:52:21
  Well, you can believe whatever he wants, but The thing is, he's
• 2:52:24
  not going to keep it to himself. He's going to get in government.
• 2:52:27
  He's going to get people in government who then pushes
• 2:52:29
  ideology onto children. So this quote, UN quote choice
• 2:52:33
  of not having an effect, it certainly does have an effect.
• 2:52:38
  I I mean, I don't see you voting to take out evolution out of
• 2:52:41
  schools, do you? Let's let's go back to before
• 2:52:45
  you convenient. Let's go back to before you
• 2:52:47
  conveniently cut off because I really am not going to be able
• 2:52:50
  to get through any conversation with you without just being
• 2:52:53
  myself and that's going to get me kicked off.
• 2:52:56
  So why don't we go back to actually what you believe
• 2:52:58
  before, before we get into any kind of like what I believe,
• 2:53:02
  because I really find it hard pressed to think that anyone on
• 2:53:06
  this panel is not going to think that you.
• 2:53:10
  Or ultimately, one wrong, but two.
• 2:53:13
  No one's gonna want your beliefs in any school of any kind or
• 2:53:16
  taught to any children. Wait, you can tell me I'm wrong.
• 2:53:20
  That's just your opinion. I didn't say that you were.
• 2:53:23
  I didn't say that you were wrong again.
• 2:53:25
  But why don't we just go? I'm sorry, did anyone else hear
• 2:53:30
  me tell him that he was wrong? You said that the other people
• 2:53:34
  in the room may consider his views wrong and it's.
• 2:53:38
  Correct. He may like a video game I don't
• 2:53:40
  like. I don't know.
• 2:53:41
  We're probably gonna have it this.
• 2:53:42
  But we're not talking about video games, Brett.
• 2:53:44
  We're talking about Jesus right now.
• 2:53:46
  So let's talk about Jesus and what this dude actually
• 2:53:49
  believes, right? Let's get into that before we.
• 2:53:51
  Get into what I What I heard Darf say is that he does believe
• 2:53:55
  in Jesus. He does believe in the Father
• 2:53:57
  God. And that's the reason why I
• 2:53:59
  asked him So what are the other gods in this polytheistic view
• 2:54:03
  that he has? Does he believe is real, but
• 2:54:06
  unfortunately had to convene the technical problems?
• 2:54:12
  So Darth, do you want to answer that or you wanting to jump on
• 2:54:15
  something else? Oh yeah, it's because The
• 2:54:17
  Darkness was asking a different question.
• 2:54:21
  But I'll answer yours first. Yeah.
• 2:54:23
  So I do believe in thoughts like RAW.
• 2:54:28
  You've just been goddess or an Anubis.
• 2:54:31
  Elsa believe in Anubis or Thor? Did you say Thor?
• 2:54:37
  Yeah. OK, now I don't know how other
• 2:54:42
  people feel in here, but I've had conversations with many
• 2:54:46
  Polythea, so it doesn't really surprise me as much.
• 2:54:49
  Go ahead if you guys want to. I find it hard to believe that
• 2:54:55
  this is. I mean, you point our leg or
• 2:54:57
  what? This doesn't even make common
• 2:54:58
  sense to me. Well, Doctors is trying to tell
• 2:55:02
  me I'm wrong for what I believe in.
• 2:55:05
  They can't tell me that. It's just his opinion.
• 2:55:08
  You have your opinion. I have my opinion and his
• 2:55:11
  choices. I mean, I don't think Darkness
• 2:55:14
  will ever vote to take evolution out of school.
• 2:55:17
  So for him to play the oh, I'm just the middle of the road, not
• 2:55:24
  taking the action game, that's completely false.
• 2:55:27
  So in in making that choice of continuing to allow evolution to
• 2:55:31
  be taught in schools will put these kids in danger of being
• 2:55:36
  sent down the wrong path. So you can no longer claim that
• 2:55:39
  you're. Okay, Darth.
• 2:55:40
  You have your actions have no consequences.
• 2:55:43
  Okay, Darth, you're right. You're correct.
• 2:55:45
  Now let's go back to what Stump was saying.
• 2:55:47
  Right. Let's talk about what Stump just
• 2:55:49
  said. You're right when it comes to
• 2:55:50
  me. Let's put you back into what
• 2:55:52
  Stump was talking about. Well, Stump was wondering if
• 2:55:58
  this leg was being pulled. I think that Darth is actually
• 2:56:02
  sincerely does believe in other gods.
• 2:56:04
  I do. I've never heard that mixture.
• 2:56:07
  Raw. Osiris.
• 2:56:10
  Jesus. Jesus, Yeah, I've never heard
• 2:56:12
  that. Before Darth is this?
• 2:56:15
  Different Eston Buck. I don't know if you're talking
• 2:56:18
  into a toilet roll, but I can't understand you, Sir.
• 2:56:21
  Yeah, sound like you're on the water.
• 2:56:25
  You ever seen Charlie Brown? Your microphone is really bad
• 2:56:24
  right now, Dustin. It's.
• 2:56:27
  Proverb. Walt.
• 2:56:28
  Walt. Walt.
• 2:56:29
  I don't know what's coming out of him.
• 2:56:31
  The spot on? Yeah, I don't know.
• 2:56:33
  Darth Get. All.
• 2:56:36
  Darth There you go, Dustin, do you believe in multiple gods, or
• 2:56:40
  is this one God that takes multiple?
• 2:56:44
  So I believe in one ultimate, but multiple.
• 2:56:49
  Lesser gods, so it's not the same God taken multiple.
• 2:56:52
  So like them, my gods. Yeah, you can say that.
• 2:56:56
  Yeah, you can say that. So what?
• 2:57:04
  What? What's the cutoff line like?
• 2:57:06
  I mean, well, God. Between.
• 2:57:09
  Us and. Them.
• 2:57:12
  Yeah, go ahead. No, I was gonna say the
• 2:57:14
  difference between capital G God and just regular gods.
• 2:57:18
  He's a capital G God is the source for our reality, so he's
• 2:57:22
  fundamental to what what can and cannot be, while the other gods,
• 2:57:27
  let's say like the God of wine, we can do without.
• 2:57:31
  So there, there's no we don't need to reference the God of
• 2:57:36
  wine. We can have a reality without
• 2:57:38
  wine. So do you believe that the de my
• 2:57:45
  gods are created beings, or did they always exist in this
• 2:57:49
  celestial? No, they're born.
• 2:57:51
  They're born from like the ultimate God.
• 2:57:53
  I don't know how that happens, but it's as far as I know.
• 2:57:57
  Come on, gentlemen, the question on the table should be Who is
• 2:58:00
  the ultimate God? Well, I mean, it wouldn't be
• 2:58:05
  fair to ask him that. Well, he just pointed out that
• 2:58:09
  he believes that there is an old, basically old Omni God that
• 2:58:14
  created reality, but the others were kind of born or came into
• 2:58:18
  existence later, basically prior of the universe.
• 2:58:23
  That's correct, Brett. Who's the ultimate creator?
• 2:58:25
  God pray. I think.
• 2:58:28
  A better question would be. I think I think a better
• 2:58:33
  question. Sorry, hold on, hold on.
• 2:58:34
  Dustin, did you just say Thanos, Darth?
• 2:58:38
  No, I said. Ultimate and creator are two
• 2:58:40
  different categories. Sure.
• 2:58:42
  Who is the ultimate and who is the creator then?
• 2:58:45
  I do have to say, Darth, you're allowed one Avenger, Thor, but
• 2:58:49
  you can't go beyond that. Sorry.
• 2:58:51
  That's the rule you. Can't have Loki.
• 2:58:54
  What about Loki though? Loki.
• 2:58:57
  What about an Avenger look you? You laugh.
• 2:59:01
  But what you're talking about is just as crazy, right?
• 2:59:04
  Like who is the ultimate and? Proverbs, let me do this real
• 2:59:07
  quick first, who is the ultimate and who is the creator?
• 2:59:12
  Look, I think a better. Question would be.
• 2:59:14
  Creation is only which God does the which God does the little
• 2:59:18
  gods. Draw their power from the
• 2:59:22
  ultimate. Well, sure, But he said there's
• 2:59:23
  one. He said there's an ultimate.
• 2:59:25
  And then I asked him who that was, Who's the ultimate creator
• 2:59:28
  God. And he said there's a
• 2:59:28
  distinction. So who's the ultimate God?
• 2:59:33
  Well, I can get you there. I'm not asking you to get me
• 2:59:36
  there, I'm just asking you to tell me who the.
• 2:59:38
  God is. That's it.
• 2:59:39
  Well. I gotta.
• 2:59:40
  I mean, I can tell you. Here we'll.
• 2:59:42
  Be right back. But if you just gotta reject it,
• 2:59:44
  copy that. What would be the point?
• 2:59:45
  So it's a. Just give us a name, Give us a
• 2:59:49
  name, and. Please don't use my savior as a.
• 2:59:52
  Sure, just give give us a name and then explain.
• 2:59:56
  I can get you to the name. Yeah, I can get you to the name.
• 2:59:59
  Why can't you get us to the name, then get us there?
• 3:00:02
  Is that? Why is it so hard for you just
• 3:00:04
  to answer a simple question? It's.
• 3:00:06
  It's a lot more easier to get you to the name than just
• 3:00:09
  telling you the name. That's.
• 3:00:12
  Literally. I'm asking him for a second.
• 3:00:14
  Alright, let's give him a second.
• 3:00:16
  Let's let's hear him out. Alright, first of all, we all we
• 3:00:22
  all understand that capital G God is a mind, right?
• 3:00:25
  No, Theus would disagree. Wait, what?
• 3:00:29
  Is the mind. You said capital G God is a
• 3:00:32
  mind. So God is a mind.
• 3:00:34
  So he's. He's not a body, right?
• 3:00:35
  He's not a human being. He's not a mind.
• 3:00:37
  He's a spirit. Well, spirit mind.
• 3:00:40
  Same thing here. No.
• 3:00:42
  The spirit, the spirit has a mind.
• 3:00:44
  It's not it's not like the spirit, It's just like this
• 3:00:46
  spirit doesn't have a mind. But no.
• 3:00:49
  No. All mixed up.
• 3:00:50
  Wait, wait, But the Spirit doesn't.
• 3:00:52
  Have the mind that is. I think he's right.
• 3:00:55
  The Spirit doesn't mind the mind of God.
• 3:00:58
  Wait, you. Can you think you have a spirit
• 3:01:00
  without mind? How does that work?
• 3:01:04
  Spirit is intent. Spirit has nothing to do with
• 3:01:06
  mind. Spirit is guided by talking
• 3:01:08
  about like. That's not talking about
• 3:01:10
  lobotomized ghosts. How do you have a lobotomized
• 3:01:13
  ghost? There is no such thing as a
• 3:01:17
  ghost, my friend. Well, I do, but let's say
• 3:01:21
  lobotomized spirit. Then how do you have a
• 3:01:23
  lobotomized spirit? No, look, the spirit is not like
• 3:01:27
  like an entity with its own will.
• 3:01:30
  The Spirit is is obeying God's will.
• 3:01:33
  It is a spirit. The Spirit is obeying God's
• 3:01:35
  will, so the Spirit is obeying. The.
• 3:01:39
  Spirit does not possess the. No there it is there.
• 3:01:42
  It is God's will. That implies God is a mind,
• 3:01:46
  right? No.
• 3:01:49
  That that implies that God is a being that possesses a.
• 3:01:52
  Mind possesses what? You can't separate the thing.
• 3:01:58
  You can't separate them. Yes, you can.
• 3:02:00
  Yeah, you absolutely can. You absolutely can.
• 3:02:03
  No, I'm saying you like you can't have a lobotomized.
• 3:02:06
  You can't have a lobotomized spirit.
• 3:02:08
  You can't have mind without a. Person.
• 3:02:10
  The person of God has his own mind, but he is not a mind.
• 3:02:14
  That's ridiculous. Whether the one in, the one in
• 3:02:17
  the same thing. Yeah, you can't have a spirit
• 3:02:19
  without a mind. You can't and you can't have a
• 3:02:21
  mind. They're not.
• 3:02:22
  They're not, OK. They really are.
• 3:02:24
  Let's just. Say we disagree so he could move
• 3:02:25
  on with his explanation of who Let's just say.
• 3:02:27
  Did we have we? I just got back, folks.
• 3:02:30
  Did we establish who the creator of all reality is?
• 3:02:33
  We have. We'll get into my new shift.
• 3:02:35
  We're in the my new shift. So come on, guys, we're gonna
• 3:02:37
  have to get there, right? Then do.
• 3:02:40
  OK, well, we all agree that all spirits have a mind.
• 3:02:43
  Or do you think it have a mind with that spirit?
• 3:02:45
  I mean, a spirit without mind. Let's just assume we all agree
• 3:02:48
  with you. What would be your next point?
• 3:02:50
  All right then. And then we will all agree that
• 3:02:53
  creation is revelatory of capital G God.
• 3:03:01
  If by that you mean creation was done by God, sure.
• 3:03:07
  OK. But do you think it You think
• 3:03:09
  it's revelatory of the ultimate God?
• 3:03:11
  Do you know the Darf Darkens argument of the TAG
• 3:03:14
  transcendental argument from God?
• 3:03:15
  No idea. OK, the tension dental argument
• 3:03:19
  for God. I'm so alright Dustin gets it.
• 3:03:25
  So it's pretty much states since you know we live in a great well
• 3:03:28
  all coastality pretty much goes back to Capital G God.
• 3:03:33
  And so you can't have, you can't be agnostic towards God because
• 3:03:38
  God is the source of our reality.
• 3:03:41
  Alright, so we agree God. We agree.
• 3:03:43
  God is mine and he and he can be logically arrived through and
• 3:03:50
  revealed. So then we simply ask, what
• 3:03:54
  does? What would logic presuppose?
• 3:04:00
  Why don't you hold on, hold on, I think.
• 3:04:01
  God. Is that's that's right.
• 3:04:03
  That's what I said 5 minutes ago.
• 3:04:05
  But Proverbs listen to what he just said.
• 3:04:08
  Do you believe that you can get to God through just logic and
• 3:04:13
  reasoning? I can.
• 3:04:16
  I'm not asking you pray. Jesus Christ, dude, I asked you
• 3:04:21
  just to refuse my Lord and save his name as a curse.
• 3:04:25
  Sure. Do you?
• 3:04:26
  No, that's not something that's casual to me.
• 3:04:28
  Please, please honor me on that. Sure.
• 3:04:32
  Thank you. Do you proverbs?
• 3:04:35
  What he's saying is without the revelation, right?
• 3:04:39
  He's saying, can you get there through pure logic and
• 3:04:42
  reasoning? I believe that would require
• 3:04:45
  somebody being reasonable. That would.
• 3:04:48
  Require reasonability between 2 individuals.
• 3:04:51
  Dustin, I really, really want to understand you and hear you, but
• 3:04:55
  I can't. I'm sorry.
• 3:05:00
  Hold on, let me move. I'm probably.
• 3:05:01
  I just have a bad connection. Dustin, do me a favor.
• 3:05:04
  Head off to Walmart, spend about 5 bucks and come back to us
• 3:05:08
  please. So can you hear me better?
• 3:05:14
  Can you hear me now? OK, so, so, OK, look, your
• 3:05:20
  proposal hinges on one basic principle and that's the
• 3:05:25
  reasonability between 2 individuals on a contractor or
• 3:05:31
  an agreement, right? This is what that whole thing
• 3:05:34
  boils. This what the whole thing boils
• 3:05:36
  down to it. It's fundamentally flawed.
• 3:05:39
  No, There, here's the thing, because you you got, you're
• 3:05:42
  either gonna have to get on the boat with me.
• 3:05:44
  Instead you're being rational, or you don't have to get off
• 3:05:46
  this boat and say you're not rational and then we can no
• 3:05:49
  longer talk and this is, this is what Carlos Guard does.
• 3:05:52
  She she admits like, hey, I have no actual basis for being
• 3:05:56
  rational. And she gets off the boat like a
• 3:05:58
  true, like a true atheist would. But here's what these
• 3:06:01
  knucklehead atheists do you're. Not talking to atheist.
• 3:06:06
  You're you're not talking to atheists.
• 3:06:09
  You're. I know, but I'm talking.
• 3:06:09
  Talking we're. Talking.
• 3:06:10
  To you guys, before you guys continue, I was wanting to point
• 3:06:13
  something out. The Proverbs.
• 3:06:14
  If he didn't notice us yet. Proverbs, Are you still there?
• 3:06:18
  Yes, Sir, I'm here. Have you noticed whenever a non
• 3:06:21
  believer gets aggravated or there's something's getting kind
• 3:06:24
  of challenging or an obstacle, they'll say Jesus or they'll
• 3:06:29
  bring God up As you were pointing out for the man to stop
• 3:06:32
  casually doing, why don't they ever say oh Zeus or why horse?
• 3:06:38
  Well, hold on, Brett, let me answer that.
• 3:06:41
  Let me let. Me answer.
• 3:06:44
  That so the reason is because oh.
• 3:06:47
  I'm an atheist, not a polytheist.
• 3:06:49
  I'm not a Pagan and I'm not a you know, for the life of me, I
• 3:06:55
  can't remember what. You're not saying this right.
• 3:06:57
  If I believe that none of you believe in any of the gods.
• 3:07:00
  Yet if I believe all around the world in multiple religions, you
• 3:07:03
  guys gravitate to the name Jesus Christ.
• 3:07:05
  As well. No, no, no, no.
• 3:07:06
  I'm I'm answering for myself why I use it as a.
• 3:07:11
  It's because I grew up in households.
• 3:07:14
  That used that name on a regular basis, right?
• 3:07:38
  Know. That's it.
• 3:07:17
  But what you guys are missing is he's using an argument from a
• 3:07:22
  precept that goes against atheist.
• 3:07:25
  Right? This whole thing.
• 3:07:27
  And and I don't think maybe you guys are missing it but what you
• 3:07:31
  need to hammer on him is 1. You're not atheist.
• 3:07:35
  I'm not in this discussion. No.
• 3:07:38
  But well then why is he talking about?
• 3:07:40
  You have to get on board with me.
• 3:07:42
  Because you're already on, you're already on.
• 3:07:45
  Board with him, Brett, You. You.
• 3:07:47
  Believe there's a God. You believe in reason, He
• 3:07:49
  believes in a God. You said, Hey, what's your God?
• 3:07:52
  And now he's gone through this whole shtick.
• 3:07:54
  Why I understand this is very important for you there
• 3:07:57
  darkness. I'm just waiting for the day
• 3:07:59
  that somebody gets angry with me and says, oh Gandhi, you know
• 3:08:02
  why I don't ever hear that for Proverbs?
• 3:08:05
  Why is it always Jesus? I'll make sure the shouts,
• 3:08:08
  Allah. I'll make sure they have some
• 3:08:10
  time, Brett. Darkness.
• 3:08:13
  No, go ahead. Go ahead, hold on, hold on.
• 3:08:17
  Do you have some kind of psychological training?
• 3:08:22
  What's that? Do you have some kind of
• 3:08:25
  psychological training? Nonprofessionally, No.
• 3:08:30
  I'm. Not.
• 3:08:31
  Professionally. I'm old anyway, all that aside.
• 3:08:37
  Dustin, we can talk. We can talk about that later.
• 3:08:39
  I'm interested. I would still like to answer
• 3:08:42
  your question. Man, hold on, Proverbs.
• 3:08:45
  Dustin, I'm interested in where this guy goes with it, because
• 3:08:48
  it's. It's Gandhi.
• 3:08:50
  So let's just. There you go, Brett.
• 3:08:53
  Let's let whatever. Is Darth is?
• 3:08:55
  Finish this thing out and then I'll answer whatever questions
• 3:08:58
  you want. I mean, no, you can let him walk
• 3:09:01
  it out to it's logical conclusion, You can let them
• 3:09:06
  walk it out to its logical conclusion.
• 3:09:08
  But I mean what? What identification do you do
• 3:09:11
  you expect? Like.
• 3:09:15
  Yeah, I'm not really sure what you're wanting to get out of
• 3:09:18
  them either. Darkness.
• 3:09:19
  I hear you. But Darth already said he
• 3:09:21
  believes that there's a fulltime creator of all of reality and
• 3:09:25
  that these other beings are smaller.
• 3:09:27
  They're what he refers to as dead my gods.
• 3:09:30
  So as far as I'm concerned, I mean it's it's pretty much in
• 3:09:33
  the in the bag. Unless he wants to give names to
• 3:09:36
  these things. Adam's out there being funny.
• 3:09:39
  Funny. That's Adam.
• 3:09:42
  I wonder why he's not in here. That's a good point.
• 3:09:45
  I'm gonna say that for now. I'm Yeah, He told me he thought
• 3:09:47
  you smelled funny. Well, Adam, I hear if you say
• 3:09:55
  Darf Dawkins five times in a row, he'll show up.
• 3:09:57
  Don't say it, though. Don't do.
• 3:10:00
  That I don't want to deal with that headache.
• 3:10:03
  I don't get me wrong. I like Darth, but I don't like
• 3:10:06
  his argument. OK, can I answer Darkness?
• 3:10:10
  Darkness asked me a question a very long time ago, and I was
• 3:10:13
  answering it. And then I was cut off by Darth
• 3:10:18
  Darkness. Are you still with us?
• 3:10:23
  Yep. Do you remember what your
• 3:10:25
  question was? I mean, there's been a few.
• 3:10:27
  No question was whether or not I believed that someone could come
• 3:10:32
  to God based just solely off of logic, something to that degree
• 3:10:37
  correct? Well, that's what.
• 3:10:39
  So look, I was trying to get you to interact with what he was
• 3:10:43
  actually arguing for, right? Like, because there was no
• 3:10:46
  interaction. You guys are all just, like,
• 3:10:47
  listening to this dude passively go on.
• 3:10:50
  Well, let me. Let me hit him with her in
• 3:10:52
  darkness. Let me try this.
• 3:10:53
  Maybe this will be appreciated. Darth Who created space-time and
• 3:10:59
  matter itself. Hey, God.
• 3:11:06
  Well, OK, now I'm gonna let Darkness beat on you for a
• 3:11:09
  while. Well, you have to be like, at
• 3:11:12
  least. Yeah.
• 3:11:13
  Yeah, you have to be like darkness.
• 3:11:15
  You gotta you gotta kind of put a little bit of a restraint on
• 3:11:18
  you there, buddy. OK.
• 3:11:19
  Like, like, don't make it personal, OK?
• 3:11:23
  No, no, I'm not making it personal.
• 3:11:24
  I was making a joke. No, we were talking to Darkness.
• 3:11:28
  Darkness. We were telling him to be
• 3:11:31
  reserved because he's a vicious Pitbull.
• 3:11:34
  Dude, I've been sitting here. I'm the I'm the one that's been
• 3:11:37
  quiet, trying to get this guy to finish because we're going to
• 3:11:40
  get at the very end of this thing is what I've been asking
• 3:11:44
  him to start with. And now we're I'm holding the
• 3:11:47
  spotlight in his face. You interrogate him.
• 3:11:49
  No, no, no. I don't want to.
• 3:11:51
  I just do your stick there. But no I I.
• 3:11:53
  Actually kind of like this. I find it interesting, Darkness,
• 3:11:57
  because remember earlier you were talking about personalities
• 3:12:00
  and influences and all that. You want so badly for him to
• 3:12:04
  tell you who the creator of the universe says he mentioned all
• 3:12:08
  the other gods, but that didn't seem to be enough.
• 3:12:10
  It's like you're wanting a specific God out of him.
• 3:12:13
  And I like that. Why do you think that's so
• 3:12:15
  important to you, Darkness? It's important to me because
• 3:12:22
  there's so much. You like God, don't you, Mr.
• 3:12:28
  Krabs? No, don't be like that, dude.
• 3:12:34
  That's not where I'm going. He's he's literally tripping all
• 3:12:37
  over himself with the multiple different like gods, right.
• 3:12:40
  Like the polytheism is is tough ground to stand on.
• 3:12:43
  And now he's gone into a precept designed for atheism for
• 3:12:48
  atheists, right that this. And so this is what I'm
• 3:12:51
  interested in, you guys obviously we know what you
• 3:12:55
  believe. You've asked him several times.
• 3:12:58
  I've asked him several times and he's done the.
• 3:13:02
  Hey, let me explain it before I tell you.
• 3:13:05
  Right. And for me, the hairs on the
• 3:13:07
  back of my neck always stand up. Anytime I ask someone a question
• 3:13:09
  and they can't give a yes or no, they have to preface it with a 5
• 3:13:13
  minute whatever. Yeah, that right.
• 3:13:15
  So and that's what he's doing. And now we've furthered this
• 3:13:19
  thing rather than just let him go on.
• 3:13:21
  So I'm going to mute until this dude gets to the end and gives
• 3:13:26
  us the name of whatever it is. Can I ask you, I just question
• 3:13:28
  before you. Well, I yeah.
• 3:13:31
  I. 2nd I I second Brett. I caught it.
• 3:13:35
  I second Brett. You're very interesting.
• 3:13:39
  You there, dark. I caught it, OK.
• 3:13:43
  The dog laying on the bed. What's its name?
• 3:13:47
  Cusa. It's Pitt.
• 3:13:49
  Her. Her.
• 3:13:50
  Name is cusa. Cusa.
• 3:13:51
  She is. She is a now, unbeknownst to us
• 3:13:56
  when we got her from a friend. She was the runt of the last
• 3:14:02
  litter of champion catch dogs out of North Carolina.
• 3:14:04
  Wow. And she is my little Princess.
• 3:14:08
  But she is not bred to be a house pet and acts accordingly.
• 3:14:13
  She's she's tough. But yeah, she's my little girl,
• 3:14:15
  92 pounds. Little girl is what she is.
• 3:14:18
  She would never bite. Yeah, she's beautiful, man.
• 3:14:21
  Barkness. You mind me asking something
• 3:14:23
  because it seemed very important to you earlier to understand the
• 3:14:26
  personalities and the influences of.
• 3:14:29
  What drive people to some of their ideas or theologies or
• 3:14:32
  thoughts? What would you say is your
• 3:14:35
  influence? What inspired you to be an
• 3:14:37
  atheist and not a theist? I'm I'm gonna answer you Brett.
• 3:14:42
  But before I do that I want I'm gonna I'm gonna mute I gave
• 3:14:48
  Proverbs that and as once this dude finishes his stick and and
• 3:14:52
  you guys. Interact with that, I'll answer
• 3:14:54
  your question, but I'm I'm not giving.
• 3:14:56
  Any that important to you? Huh.
• 3:14:58
  I'm not giving any more. Yeah, because it's.
• 3:15:00
  Ridiculous, All right. No, no, no, it's not.
• 3:15:02
  And it's 1. The one true God.
• 3:15:06
  You hear that? Darkness wants to know who the
• 3:15:09
  one true God of all is. Well, the real reason he's doing
• 3:15:13
  that is so he he gets out of the line of fire and and so if he
• 3:15:17
  gets out of the line of the fire in the future, he'll know how to
• 3:15:20
  reply. I'm sorry.
• 3:15:21
  Normally I'd say yes, but he's right.
• 3:15:24
  You've taken like 14 minutes to answer a very simple question.
• 3:15:28
  I haven't. You've taken all sorts of
• 3:15:30
  different side roads, which are just unneeded.
• 3:15:35
  All right, let me break it down then.
• 3:15:36
  We understand. That is the time.
• 3:15:38
  Look, look, do me a favor. Really quickly.
• 3:15:40
  Ask me who I think God is. What do you think God capital G
• 3:15:44
  is Yohova, which is also Jesus Christ.
• 3:15:47
  OK, now can you use it? Can you get to Jehovah through
• 3:15:50
  only logic alone without using the Bible?
• 3:15:56
  I believe so. OK, do it.
• 3:15:58
  There's impossibilities all through the explanations of
• 3:16:01
  evolution, even dark matter itself.
• 3:16:03
  As a placeholder, The Big Bang is not in a solid place.
• 3:16:07
  And what I mean by that is we don't know if it's the beginning
• 3:16:10
  or just somewhere down the road. The rapid expansion, we're
• 3:16:13
  unsure if the universe is eternal or finite and God plugs
• 3:16:18
  all of those holes. That only gets you to a generic.
• 3:16:21
  Yeah, that only gets you to a generic, but it's an explanation
• 3:16:25
  for everything that evolution is unable to answer.
• 3:16:28
  Well, you didn't get me to Jehovah.
• 3:16:30
  I absolutely got you to the creator God.
• 3:16:34
  Yeah, but get me to Jehovah. Give me another God who has
• 3:16:38
  performed as many miracles and declared himself God of the
• 3:16:41
  universe. What is that Hindu God?
• 3:16:46
  OK. There's evidence for these
• 3:16:48
  miracles. Yeah.
• 3:16:52
  Really. Where?
• 3:16:53
  Yeah. Never the Hindu, the Hindu
• 3:16:54
  people themselves, religions all my life, never heard of them.
• 3:16:57
  The Hindu people themselves, the Hindu people themselves are a
• 3:17:01
  miracle. Yeah.
• 3:17:03
  You don't think. You don't think life is a
• 3:17:06
  miracle. Oh, life is a miracle.
• 3:17:09
  Yeah, That's your explanation. That's that's you asked me.
• 3:17:13
  You asked me for a miracle. I provided to you the.
• 3:17:18
  Man, I'm sorry to tell you this you were able to name is also
• 3:17:22
  explained in our faith. Get you're not very good at this
• 3:17:26
  buddy. Give me a pure.
• 3:17:28
  Give me a pure logic argument that gets you to Jehovah.
• 3:17:31
  I just did. You didn't accept it and that's
• 3:17:33
  yet to give us your. That argument doesn't get you to
• 3:17:36
  minutes Now of who you believe God is Jessica you That doesn't
• 3:17:42
  get you to Jehovah. I will not agree with that
• 3:17:45
  because it's inaccurate. It only gets you to a God if
• 3:17:49
  it's not. It's not revelatory of Yohovah.
• 3:17:52
  If the Christian Bible expresses that Jehovah, the Bible, and
• 3:17:56
  it's accompanied by mirror Bible and there is a you just lost
• 3:18:01
  evidence, how did I lose? He just mentioned the Bible.
• 3:18:05
  OK, I said a purely logical the fact that you had to reference
• 3:18:10
  the Bible to make this argument work means you can't do it.
• 3:18:13
  The whole first half of my argument was on Bible related
• 3:18:16
  whatsoever. You didn't.
• 3:18:17
  What are you talking about? There's no logic in the Bible.
• 3:18:20
  Is that where you're doing with that argument?
• 3:18:24
  Repeat back to me. The repeat back to me The
• 3:18:26
  argument. Yeah, repeat that question.
• 3:18:30
  Which argument? No, no, you said purely logical.
• 3:18:33
  You're telling me that there's You're telling me there's.
• 3:18:35
  Did you said purely logical argument that leads you back to
• 3:18:38
  God? Are you suggesting by his loss
• 3:18:42
  that that the Bible is, is illogical in some way?
• 3:18:46
  OK here, but here's my question. Give me a purely logic argument
• 3:18:49
  that gives you back to Jehovah, not a generic God.
• 3:18:53
  Jehovah so well, I mean there there are other logical
• 3:18:57
  arguments, but but the other end of the equation is and.
• 3:19:02
  And this is, this is a direct question.
• 3:19:05
  Is there? Logic.
• 3:19:07
  In the Bible, Yeah, but you're appealing to the Bible now, I
• 3:19:13
  say without the Bible. No, no, I didn't appeal
• 3:19:15
  anything. I'm asking you, accept it.
• 3:19:19
  You're very unreasonable. No, not only it will be reasons.
• 3:19:23
  You're evasive when it comes to hold on proverbs.
• 3:19:25
  Hold on proverbs. I got this because I'm getting
• 3:19:27
  tired. He won't give a direct answer.
• 3:19:30
  He's dancing. He's playing semantics, and it's
• 3:19:34
  it's wearing me out. 20 minutes is more than enough to tell us
• 3:19:36
  who you think you're freaking. God is, man.
• 3:19:38
  I can just tell. Who do you think you got?
• 3:19:41
  She's really need 20 minutes to get us there, that's.
• 3:19:44
  That is so stupid, there's no trouble to get to a point of who
• 3:19:49
  your God is. Then you need to reevaluate who
• 3:19:51
  your freaking God is. Man, I think that this is
• 3:19:53
  stupid. No one takes 20 minutes.
• 3:19:56
  No one takes 20 minutes to answer a simple question of who
• 3:19:59
  you think God is. No one but you.
• 3:20:02
  It's so irrational. You're taking most of the air
• 3:20:07
  time. After 20 minutes, You're right.
• 3:20:11
  You're darn right you're you're lucky you're not ejected
• 3:20:16
  anyways. All right, so you can't provide
• 3:20:18
  a logical he will be injected from the Kingdom if he doesn't
• 3:20:21
  ditch all those false gods, including the one you can't name
• 3:20:23
  after 25 minutes. I can do it, and I'll get you to
• 3:20:26
  do it. All right, So you can't provide
• 3:20:31
  a much deduction. All right, so you can't get
• 3:20:35
  can't give a logical deduction to the Yahweh.
• 3:20:39
  All right then. So we both agree the God is a
• 3:20:41
  mine. And that in the simple question
• 3:20:45
  I becomes, are you using logic? Is everybody in this room using
• 3:20:49
  logic? Do you use logic?
• 3:20:53
  Proverbs. I believe that you've used much
• 3:20:55
  logic in the last. 30 minutes. I believe that if it wasn't for
• 3:20:58
  God, there wouldn't be rationality in logic to even
• 3:21:01
  argue about Absolutely this is. This is why atheists like
• 3:21:06
  darkness. They're trying to avoid this
• 3:21:08
  because they know that they lose instantly.
• 3:21:11
  Yeah, but Darth, the the issue is, and I think Darkness was
• 3:21:16
  trying to point this out earlier, is a 99% of the room
• 3:21:21
  are theistic actually do believe in the concept of God.
• 3:21:25
  I mean, this kind of argument that you're doing may be cute
• 3:21:28
  for the atheist or whatever, but.
• 3:21:30
  We already believe in God. We're already, you know, with
• 3:21:34
  the horse and carrots there, Feller.
• 3:21:36
  I'm just trying. I'm just trying to make sure,
• 3:21:38
  like the audience understands, that the atheist cannot, cannot
• 3:21:42
  defeat this argument. Right.
• 3:21:45
  So let's move on. So all right, your argument is
• 3:21:48
  only this argument. This particular line of
• 3:21:51
  reasoning is only as strong as the mental presentation.
• 3:21:55
  And your mental presentation is very weak.
• 3:21:58
  Man, I'm sorry. We're barely hard for anyone to
• 3:22:02
  defeat in a position you haven't defined.
• 3:22:06
  Look, we're barely starting the argument, so we need to agree on
• 3:22:09
  some things before I can even start. 30 minutes in and we're
• 3:22:11
  barely starting the argument. You guys are taking most of the
• 3:22:14
  air time. All right then.
• 3:22:17
  So. Like we don't need to hear the
• 3:22:19
  rest of your argument. Get to the crux.
• 3:22:22
  I'm trying to. All right, then.
• 3:22:24
  So we all agree that we're using logic.
• 3:22:26
  What does logic presuppose? What is logic and what
• 3:22:33
  presuppose? What is logic presupposing?
• 3:22:36
  So what I'm saying I'm being logical and you're being
• 3:22:38
  logical. What are we both presupposing?
• 3:22:40
  Because this is a presupposing. He has been here presupposing
• 3:22:43
  that a entity, a God, created all of reality, the very model
• 3:22:48
  of it. Therefore, that is where that's
• 3:22:51
  the consequence of logic and rationality come into existence.
• 3:22:55
  Right now we're just trying to establish what is the name that
• 3:22:58
  you put upon the deity that you say created all of reality.
• 3:23:04
  Yeah, so like, of course, of course all reality is going to
• 3:23:07
  presuppose God, but what in specific does logic presuppose
• 3:23:14
  is there? Anybody that's kind of a.
• 3:23:16
  It's just the same thing with Darth and the script.
• 3:23:19
  It's a. It's a circular argument that
• 3:23:21
  always leads back to the concept of God and knowledge and you
• 3:23:25
  formity of nature. We get that.
• 3:23:28
  Now, what's the name of the the rational logical being that you
• 3:23:32
  speak of? OK, OK, I'll put it more easy.
• 3:23:34
  OK, let's say you and I are playing chess, right?
• 3:23:37
  And then you make a move from the chess board to try to win,
• 3:23:40
  and I make a move on the chess board to try to win.
• 3:23:42
  What are we presupposing when we're making moves on the chess
• 3:23:46
  board? We're presupposing.
• 3:23:49
  Well, at least from my perspective.
• 3:23:51
  I'm figuring I'm going to whip you in chess, is what I'm
• 3:23:54
  thinking. OK, we understand that somebody
• 3:23:57
  made the chess board, but what did they also make the rules,
• 3:24:03
  right? So we're presupposing we're
• 3:24:05
  presupposing the rules we're making.
• 3:24:07
  We're making the moves on the chess board.
• 3:24:09
  The rules can be certain differently, but this is the
• 3:24:12
  rules we were given. And so when we when we say we
• 3:24:15
  are logical, we are making a presupposition of order.
• 3:24:20
  Now order comes from a mind. We agree that God is a mind.
• 3:24:25
  But now there's one thing. What does order presuppose we
• 3:24:28
  never agreed that God is a mind spirit.
• 3:24:32
  Let's just go with it. It would require never got
• 3:24:36
  there. Never.
• 3:24:36
  It would require, OK, what? We're still we can still work.
• 3:24:39
  We are going to conceal work. What does order presuppose?
• 3:24:45
  You do, Darth. I'm not trying to hate on you.
• 3:24:48
  Love you, brother. But the whole reasoning why
• 3:24:51
  Darth Dawkins brings up the script is to show atheists that
• 3:24:55
  they require a God in order to be able to reason and
• 3:24:59
  rationalize. You already correct there.
• 3:25:01
  You already got us there. Go ahead.
• 3:25:04
  That's correct. No, no, no.
• 3:25:05
  You're you're you're the nail on the head.
• 3:25:07
  The reason that it wasn't to get out of the line of fire, right.
• 3:25:10
  The reason is it was that I'm. No, The reason that I'm here for
• 3:25:14
  this is because you So when we get to the end of the rope,
• 3:25:18
  right, Darth or Dawkins, this argument gets you to a concept.
• 3:25:24
  It doesn't get you to a name. It doesn't get you.
• 3:25:27
  There's no, there's no name at the end of the tunnel.
• 3:25:29
  OK, look, No, look, if you can, let's say you give us.
• 3:25:32
  The name. Then then give us the name.
• 3:25:34
  Give you the name if it's not. If it's not, give you the name.
• 3:25:37
  Give us the name. Yes, You're gonna You're gonna
• 3:25:41
  give me the name. You're gonna give me the name.
• 3:25:42
  Watch the darkness. I agree with you that he doesn't
• 3:25:45
  know. OK, Doctor, let's presuppose
• 3:25:48
  you. You were on the boat.
• 3:25:49
  What does order presuppose? There's only one thing.
• 3:25:54
  Order presupposes all. Richard Dawkins.
• 3:25:59
  What does order presuppose? Proverbs.
• 3:26:03
  Anybody. Are these these questions that
• 3:26:08
  you're throwing out are meant for the non believer?
• 3:26:11
  Debating against the atheist informity of nature, law and
• 3:26:16
  order provides therefore a law giver.
• 3:26:19
  We we get that now Dark Dawkins know it does get you to a name,
• 3:26:25
  but he doesn't want to say the name because it's not the
• 3:26:28
  question. It's not.
• 3:26:29
  Your heart when Darth Dawkins is doing this, he's just trying to
• 3:26:33
  get the It's the reason that there is the concept of a God.
• 3:26:39
  He knows the name. Did you?
• 3:26:41
  Just say, well, I know that, I know that.
• 3:26:43
  But he is arguing. He just wants the atheist to
• 3:26:46
  open their mind to the reason and where rationality and logic
• 3:26:49
  comes from. What we're doing right now is
• 3:26:52
  we're trying to figure out, from your point of view, not Darth
• 3:26:56
  Dawkins, you what is the name of the deity that created
• 3:27:00
  space-time and matter and all the demigods after.
• 3:27:04
  And the name is simply what presuppose this order.
• 3:27:07
  OK, we we got to this, we got to this final stepping stone.
• 3:27:10
  Right hold. On a second.
• 3:27:12
  I gotta go slam my head in refrigerator door.
• 3:27:14
  I'll be right back. So right so we got to this last
• 3:27:18
  stepping stone right before the name of the God we got to order
• 3:27:22
  now what I don't. I don't understand why you can't
• 3:27:27
  just say the name because I'm trying to get you to say because
• 3:27:30
  this is how do I need to put you in backstage until you write it
• 3:27:36
  in the chat. I don't.
• 3:27:38
  I don't. Look.
• 3:27:38
  You don't want to say to do it's been you know the name.
• 3:27:44
  The name is Yohova Christ Jesus. What Wait.
• 3:27:47
  Does the order Chris how do you get from how do you get from
• 3:27:53
  order to Jehovah? From order to Jehovah.
• 3:27:58
  Yeah. Do a logical resolution.
• 3:28:00
  It's an honest question, Darth, and I don't mean this as an
• 3:28:02
  insult. Do you suffer from any sort of
• 3:28:05
  mental illness, or have you experimented with hallucinogenic
• 3:28:08
  drugs? You went with him.
• 3:28:10
  You went there on Wow, Look at this.
• 3:28:15
  I have. I have to ask you, Ben, because
• 3:28:18
  for the life of me, I've never first with the sane person who
• 3:28:22
  was as bizarrely wildly unable to answer the simplest of
• 3:28:28
  question. You should be able to do an
• 3:28:30
  extended period, and I used to volunteer for an organization
• 3:28:35
  that specializes with helping and training special needs
• 3:28:40
  individuals, job and basic life skills.
• 3:28:44
  So that's probably the one who can't answer the simple question
• 3:28:48
  of what. The He's just, he's just playing
• 3:28:51
  a game. But let's play the game real
• 3:28:52
  quick. I don't know Darth.
• 3:28:54
  What? I also don't know Darth.
• 3:28:58
  I don't, Justin. Well, for the love of dogs, I'll
• 3:29:01
  give you some of you. Please tell this man you also
• 3:29:03
  don't know. I don't know.
• 3:29:07
  Let's let's put some words out there.
• 3:29:09
  Darkness here. Darkness.
• 3:29:10
  I'll play again with you. I'll put some words out there.
• 3:29:12
  And you? You give a freaking joker, bro.
• 3:29:15
  Like, are you? Remember when you Well, I'm
• 3:29:17
  gonna stop in here and I'm gonna get.
• 3:29:19
  I'm gonna give darkness again. We're gonna give darkness.
• 3:29:21
  Before, before you. Before you do that Darth, let me
• 3:29:25
  just say one thing to Proverbs Proverbs this.
• 3:29:28
  My friend is a disingenuous position, right?
• 3:29:33
  Like this dude is being disingenuous.
• 3:29:36
  I have to apologize. You You don't have nailed that
• 3:29:39
  one. Tracked what I said about you.
• 3:29:41
  I do apologize. Where am I being disingenuous?
• 3:29:46
  Where along did my argument was dismiss?
• 3:29:48
  You are so far off the line it is ridiculous you you ran from
• 3:29:54
  non sequitur to begging the question.
• 3:29:57
  I like to be liked. I enjoy being liked.
• 3:30:00
  I have to be liked. But it's not like this
• 3:30:04
  compulsive need to be liked, like my need to be praised.
• 3:30:14
  I think I have. What was that?
• 3:30:16
  About Michael Scott I yes, I have 4 soundtracks of Michael
• 3:30:21
  Scott for these type of occasions and next but you're
• 3:30:25
  going to get I have flaws test me and I sat here and listened
• 3:30:30
  to you in under 4 minutes. Commit 3 reification fallacies.
• 3:30:35
  You you. Have been conjecture after
• 3:30:38
  conjecture after conjecture. Dustin, I'm happy to.
• 3:30:42
  I'm happy to. I'm happy to just walk this out.
• 3:30:44
  All right, Darth. I don't know what's next.
• 3:30:46
  All right. Here.
• 3:30:47
  We'll play. We'll play again with you,
• 3:30:48
  Darkness. I'm gonna give you some names,
• 3:30:50
  right? I'm gonna give you some words,
• 3:30:53
  some words. Right.
• 3:30:55
  And then out of those words. You tell me, you tell me which
• 3:30:59
  of these words would be the thing that that order
• 3:31:02
  presupposes. All right.
• 3:31:03
  Do you understand? Blue.
• 3:31:06
  Blue. No proverbs.
• 3:31:07
  Let me just walk out. Can you mute?
• 3:31:09
  All right, Go ahead, Darkness. Can you mute?
• 3:31:11
  If you ask me to, you're gonna promise me Show one more time.
• 3:31:15
  I will ban you and you will never.
• 3:31:16
  Run just just Darth. Just run the script.
• 3:31:18
  Let's let's see if we can't get to the end of it.
• 3:31:20
  I don't think we can, but let's see if we can get to the end of
• 3:31:22
  it. It's just gonna go back and back
• 3:31:25
  into precepts and listen, listen, Whatever the fuck that
• 3:31:28
  word means, can we hold on? We're look, I want to record
• 3:31:30
  can. We just move topics because this
• 3:31:33
  is just gonna go in a circle like a Flat Earth.
• 3:31:35
  I don't know. All right, Well, I just.
• 3:31:40
  Doroth, I tell you what, when you're ready to tell us who The
• 3:31:42
  Who, the creators all over the. Let's give it Brett.
• 3:31:45
  Can Brett, hold on. Doroth, can you do it in 2
• 3:31:48
  minutes? Oh man, let me go get the.
• 3:31:50
  OK, awesome. 2 minutes. Somebody put a time on.
• 3:31:53
  Let's do it. Let's do it.
• 3:31:54
  I'll answer succinctly. Let's go.
• 3:31:56
  You guys weren't going to interrupt me.
• 3:31:57
  Hold on, hold on. I'm going to tell you when to
• 3:31:59
  start. Be ready.
• 3:32:00
  It's 11/09 and as soon as it hits 11:10, I'm going to say go.
• 3:32:03
  So be prepared. But first, I expect Shut up,
• 3:32:06
  shut up, stop, stop you. Just can tell me.
• 3:32:08
  Shut up, brother. I did.
• 3:32:09
  I absolutely did. We're not going to get anywhere
• 3:32:12
  like this. We're not getting anywhere
• 3:32:14
  anyways. Just be prepared.
• 3:32:16
  Go. All right, All right.
• 3:32:17
  First of all, I think, darn, as we agreed that Proverbs cannot
• 3:32:20
  give a logical revelation of Yahova.
• 3:32:22
  Is that correct? I don't know.
• 3:32:26
  I thought you gonna answer honestly.
• 3:32:28
  So if you're just gonna say I don't know to the questions.
• 3:32:31
  I honestly, I wasn't paying attention when you guys got into
• 3:32:34
  the weeds of like all of that stuff.
• 3:32:36
  So I have no idea. You have no idea, dude, I don't
• 3:32:39
  know. I have.
• 3:32:40
  Are you using logic right now, Darkness?
• 3:32:43
  I'm trying to trying to. It's either yes or no.
• 3:32:48
  Well, I'm so yes. Am I using logic?
• 3:32:52
  Sure. OK great.
• 3:32:53
  So what does logic please suppose?
• 3:32:55
  Or darkness. Order.
• 3:32:58
  Do you agree with that or disagree?
• 3:33:00
  Do you agree or disagree or yes or no?
• 3:33:02
  Yes or no? Yes.
• 3:33:05
  All right, then. What does order presuppose?
• 3:33:10
  OK, now I'm gonna give you some words there, Darkness.
• 3:33:13
  I'm gonna say some words. Now you're gonna tell me whether
• 3:33:14
  this word, priest, does does order presup this word or does
• 3:33:19
  not presup this word. OK.
• 3:33:21
  Banana, Did you understand the question?
• 3:33:27
  Does order presuppose banana. So yeah, I'm gonna.
• 3:33:31
  Question this. So I'm gonna yeah, I'm gonna
• 3:33:33
  give you a list of words and then you have to tell me whether
• 3:33:36
  does order presup this word or it does not presup this word.
• 3:33:40
  OK, you understand it? Alright.
• 3:33:42
  Banana. No Taco.
• 3:33:46
  Nope, Blue. Nope, proverb.
• 3:33:51
  Nope, Jesus. Nope.
• 3:33:54
  Jehovah. No, Zeus.
• 3:33:59
  No. Mute.
• 3:34:02
  No chaos. No sure about that.
• 3:34:10
  Yeah, all right then how does it not pre suppose chaos?
• 3:34:16
  Same way it doesn't presuppose Zeus Wow.
• 3:34:21
  Why? I don't know, honestly.
• 3:34:22
  To be completely. Honest with you, I don't think
• 3:34:25
  it does. How does Order presuppose chaos?
• 3:34:28
  No idea. How do you think so?
• 3:34:30
  Do you believe? Chaos is God.
• 3:34:32
  Is that where this ends at? Chaos is God.
• 3:34:35
  Yeah, that's where it ends. OK, awesome.
• 3:34:38
  There you go guys. Chaos is God.
• 3:34:40
  That's what he believes. Well, Darkness, you couldn't
• 3:34:44
  tell me otherwise. I don't.
• 3:34:48
  I just wanted to get to the end of the script.
• 3:34:49
  I I have no idea what you're talking about when you say chaos
• 3:34:52
  is God, right? It doesn't make sense because
• 3:34:54
  chaos is again, a concept, not a D Look, yeah, you could.
• 3:34:59
  You could also say Jesus is a concept.
• 3:35:01
  You're gonna say Jesus is a. Concept Jesus No, no, no.
• 3:35:04
  Do you think? Right.
• 3:35:04
  Correct. Do you think ohh is it?
• 3:35:06
  No, they hold Jesus is the. Spirit.
• 3:35:09
  Spirit is the concept to them. Does chaos have agency?
• 3:35:14
  What do you mean by that? Exactly what?
• 3:35:17
  I asked Does chaos have agency? Does chaos have desire,
• 3:35:22
  intention, agency? Does it have agency?
• 3:35:26
  Yeah, I I. Prove that.
• 3:35:30
  Like. Prove that chaos has an
• 3:35:32
  intention. I mean, you can do whatever the
• 3:35:35
  heck it wants. Look, the mind is true, no.
• 3:35:38
  No, no, hold on. Hold on one second.
• 3:35:40
  Let me let me stop you right there.
• 3:35:41
  Because when you say it can do whatever it wants it sounds
• 3:35:45
  like. Your presupposing chaos has
• 3:35:48
  intention, right? I'm asking you to prove that
• 3:35:50
  chaos has intention. I don't think chaos is 1 and it
• 3:35:54
  that does whatever it wants. I think chaos is a concept and
• 3:36:00
  that's that. That's the atheist definition.
• 3:36:02
  Can somebody can somebody what is the Christian definition of
• 3:36:05
  chaos? Voice the Christian.
• 3:36:07
  Usually. Usually theist God is theist
• 3:36:10
  noble. Order.
• 3:36:11
  What is the the theistic definition of chaos?
• 3:36:14
  Not the Christian. What you have to understand,
• 3:36:17
  Darth, is you're not talking to just an atheist.
• 3:36:19
  You're talking to. Yeah.
• 3:36:20
  You're not just talking. We're not dwelling in the
• 3:36:23
  Christian. I'm really sorry, guys.
• 3:36:27
  I could. Not stop you.
• 3:36:29
  I couldn't do it, man. Proverbs, you're the host man,
• 3:36:33
  You run the show. I told you, but look so.
• 3:36:36
  Let me ask you a genuine question, just just so we can
• 3:36:38
  put this on the table. Do you guys think that chaos?
• 3:36:54
  Chaos isn't it abstract word without order.
• 3:36:42
  Because when he says the atheist definition of chaos, when I
• 3:36:45
  asked the Christian, maybe I should have said the theist.
• 3:36:48
  But do you guys believe chaos is anything different than maybe
• 3:36:51
  the whatever the dictionary definition of?
• 3:36:58
  And if you're going to believe that there is a supreme being,
• 3:37:01
  he created all reality, then you have to believe all of the
• 3:37:04
  existence has reason and order to it, and chaos plays no part
• 3:37:09
  in it. That's fair.
• 3:37:12
  But do you believe chaos has any intention, Brett?
• 3:37:15
  Well, of course not. I don't Chaos.
• 3:37:18
  I don't. Chaos to me sounds like a
• 3:37:20
  magical word, like dark matter. It's simply a fudge thing that
• 3:37:24
  people fling out there that doesn't have any meaning.
• 3:37:27
  It's. Sure, I'm just focusing.
• 3:37:30
  I'm just trying to focus when when I said chaos has no
• 3:37:33
  intention, he said. Sure, the atheist definition.
• 3:37:38
  And now it seems to me that you all agree with me that it's that
• 3:37:42
  it's not an atheistic definition, right?
• 3:37:44
  Well, even theists we are we gonna ignore Murphy's Law?
• 3:37:48
  Actually, well, actually, unfortunately, I I do have to
• 3:37:51
  say this and this may I hope. Hopefully it's doesn't offend
• 3:37:55
  you, Darkness, but the very position of atheism.
• 3:37:59
  Being that there's no God, that means that there is no actual
• 3:38:02
  order or no mind or agency behind it, So and it's there.
• 3:38:06
  I don't. It's not offensive.
• 3:38:08
  To be your position. It's not offensive and I don't I
• 3:38:11
  don't care that you said it what I'm what I'm talking about
• 3:38:13
  because even though right regardless of of the ultimate
• 3:38:17
  state of reality right whether or not God is true or not or
• 3:38:21
  whether I I can't do anything whatever you said Brett that
• 3:38:25
  doesn't really to me. Have any bearing on the the what
• 3:38:32
  is it the four of us now, the four of us agreeing on a
• 3:38:36
  definition of chaos, where he seemed to imply there was an
• 3:38:39
  atheistic definition of chaos. I'm using, and I'm simply saying
• 3:38:42
  no, I'm using the definition of chaos that most people would
• 3:38:45
  use. He's the one that seemed to have
• 3:38:47
  a different definition of what Chaos was, including that Chaos
• 3:38:50
  is some sort of deity with intention.
• 3:38:53
  I've listened. I I'd like to.
• 3:38:56
  Oh, sorry. I listened to Darth Dawkins, the
• 3:38:58
  guy that he's, he's bringing up some of the arguments from and I
• 3:39:03
  think what he's trying to point out to you and his way, he
• 3:39:06
  obviously is in the script of this Darth Dawkins.
• 3:39:08
  But if you do not believe that there is a supreme being that
• 3:39:12
  commits the order of the universe, then the opposite
• 3:39:16
  would be disorder, chaos, entropy, which is where the
• 3:39:20
  atheist would find themselves in.
• 3:39:22
  I think that's where he was trying to go with it.
• 3:39:26
  Correct. But Darth doesn't.
• 3:39:27
  I mean there is the. Argument.
• 3:39:29
  Hold on. I'm sorry, Dustin.
• 3:39:30
  I'm gonna interrupt for one second and I'm about to lose
• 3:39:32
  power. So this is literally like, I
• 3:39:34
  don't know what percentage, but everything's gonna die soon.
• 3:39:37
  At some point, the point behind this whole thing, Brett was to
• 3:39:40
  say that he's running an argument and a script designed
• 3:39:43
  to combat atheists in whatever Darth is trying to do.
• 3:39:47
  And Darth never fights for the Christian God.
• 3:39:49
  Darth. Darth doesn't talk about Jesus.
• 3:39:51
  Darth don't. Don't come bend any of that.
• 3:39:52
  All he does is run a script on atheist and then put him in a
• 3:39:55
  box when they disagree or they say certain XY&Z.
• 3:39:57
  That's why I offered to go in and say let's get to the end of
• 3:40:01
  your script and when we finally get there because Brett, it
• 3:40:04
  doesn't have to do with just me. He was talking to the whole
• 3:40:08
  room, right? Is what you seem to be missing.
• 3:40:11
  He was talking to you guys. As well, right.
• 3:40:15
  He was running that script on on Proverbs and I'm simply said,
• 3:40:20
  look, let's just get to the end of it.
• 3:40:21
  So I went through the script with him.
• 3:40:24
  But you disagree with him just as much as I do, do you not?
• 3:40:27
  Because he doesn't believe in Jesus Christ the way you do.
• 3:40:30
  He doesn't. Totally agree with his beliefs.
• 3:40:33
  That's. Correct, I have.
• 3:40:34
  I have disagreements towards his views, but I have talked to him
• 3:40:38
  in the past or my own show and. He has a lot of similar views
• 3:40:42
  that I have as well, but I felt like for whatever reason this
• 3:40:46
  became like a an unnecessary aggravation he fell into and
• 3:40:52
  just couldn't climb his way out of it and hopefully that'll get
• 3:40:55
  fixed in the future. Well, it if he stays out of
• 3:40:59
  Christian rooms because you can't run that script on
• 3:41:02
  Christians because like you pointed out, dude, we're already
• 3:41:05
  there, but he wants to keep going because he doesn't know
• 3:41:08
  anything else. And if you notice the tone that
• 3:41:11
  he takes on, when I said let's go ahead and go through the
• 3:41:14
  script, it wasn't a tone of, oh, OK man, let's do the let's let's
• 3:41:17
  go through it. It was that that that Darth,
• 3:41:20
  right. Like it was like he just, he
• 3:41:22
  brought out the whip and like he's got you on your knees.
• 3:41:25
  He wants to put the ball gag in your mouth.
• 3:41:26
  He wants to have a little fun. Right.
• 3:41:28
  Like he's in charge. Like I'm gonna right.
• 3:41:30
  It's just a very disingenuous way of having a conversation
• 3:41:34
  because the genuine way to have a conversation the honest answer
• 3:41:37
  is simply chaos is my deity not like I can walk you there in
• 3:41:42
  some script designed atheist which has no real weight to you
• 3:41:48
  guys as you very as you said a couple of times like dude we
• 3:41:50
  agree with you who's your God who's the deity right.
• 3:41:53
  And he still wants to walk that script because he has no he has
• 3:41:56
  no idea what he's talking about other than the script gets him
• 3:41:59
  to a point and and and I honestly think Brett the same
• 3:42:02
  way Darth gets off on getting the script is what he gets off
• 3:42:06
  on right. It's not witnessing to people.
• 3:42:08
  It's not preaching to people. He doesn't want to talk to Jesus
• 3:42:11
  with anybody. He don't want to talk about
• 3:42:12
  this. They just want to go through the
• 3:42:13
  script so they can hammer you, right.
• 3:42:15
  Like he said, he can slap you on the ass.
• 3:42:17
  He can push you around. He can just be in charge right.
• 3:42:20
  You have to stop talking at all that.
• 3:42:22
  This is a Christian channel. It's not funny, I I think.