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Does the Sinner's Prayer Save you? · Walk Talk: Faith in Motion

• Randy: All right. So we got a lot of ground to cover today on the Walk Talk podcast. We're going to talk about the sinner's prayer and is that what actually saves a person? We're going to talk about baptism. We're going to talk about speaking in tongues again. And if you haven't heard, there's a popular pastor out there saying that when Jesus died and he went down the hell, he was actually being molested for our sins. So we're going to get into that and a whole lot more on this episode of the Walk Talk. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Let's Randy: right, brother. So let's get into this. Pj Verdin: Yeah, let's talk about it, man. I feel like it's been a minute. And you know, it it it was funny because this was this was kind of an idea that hit me after, you know, one of our our our episodes where we we had a guest on and and they were sharing their testimony and the idea of the the sinner's sinner's prayer got brought up and I was like hmm. So I and I know Randy: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I r I remember yeah, go ahead. Pj Verdin: No, no, no, go ahead. Randy: No, I was just gonna say I remember you sending me that text and I thought right away I'm not even gonna respond. Once again, I cannot respond to this Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: guy because we need to have this conversation live. Pj Verdin: Yeah, man. Well, you know, 'cause it it really it got me it got me thinking, man, you know, 'cause I'll I'll be honest. And and and and I think that maybe that's kind of what what sparked it for me was because, you know, for for a lot of Christians, for a lot of people, you know, they remember when they prayed that prayer, man, and they remember the date and they remember how they felt and they remember this just radical transformation. And so that I've shared before, that's not really my story, man. I feel like mine's has been more of a gradual Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: progression. I don't get me wrong, I've said the sinner's prayer like 30 something times. I don't remember when it was the first time I ever said it. But, anyways, what what what I ended up, you know, I'm no. Randy: Thirty something times? Cause is this 'cause you backslid that many times, man? Pj Verdin: I'm just I'm I'm exaggerating a number. I'm I'm I'm just saying, like if if they were offering it, I would Randy: I'm I'm kidding. Pj Verdin: say the prayer. Yeah. But no, so but then I was like, you know what? I was like, as far as I and especially now, you know, we're talking about in in our daily walks. I was like, I'm pretty sure that the the sinner's prayer is not even like a biblical thing. It's a it's a culturally religious thing that we that a lot of people do. That that people Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: that that like, that's the first step. I like I remember churches that give out a card with the sinners pray, like, hey, read this. You know what I mean? But and Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: and that's not to say that that there's I I don't know. So anyways, I I I don't I'm just saying I'm I'm standing on the claim starting right now. We can talk about it more. That it's just from what I see it's not biblical. What are your thoughts on that? Randy: Yeah, well, I think that man, shots fired here. So it's not biblical to pray the sinner's prayer. I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of people who are gonna going to be in an uproar at that statement. So that's the first thing that crosses my Pj Verdin: Well Randy: mind. The sinner's prayer is not biblical. Go ahead. Pj Verdin: Well, it's not a b l let me let me rephrase this. It's not a a biblical requirement for salvation like I would gauge, like it's used contextually like, well, here Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: you go. Now you you know, you've you've you've taken Randy: Yeah, yeah. Pj Verdin: the first step. Like, you know, milestone, like I don't Randy: Yeah, and don't get me wrong. I'm not saying, yeah, I'm not saying I disagree with you or I agree with, you know, the general church, you know, Christian community. I'm just saying, man, I I could just see a lot of people saying, wait a second, what are these guys talking about? Now they're saying that they don't believe the sinner's prayer, which is, by the way, not what we're saying. there's a difference between saying that we believe something is good or right or or wrong or bad versus saying that it we believe it's biblical or it shows up in the Bible in a certain way, right? Pj Verdin: Right. Right. Randy: but I I think I think I think for me the central question is, you know, what is it that actually saves a person and in what order do things happen? Because, you know, I think this goes to kind of the side conversation we've been having regarding like John MacArthur. So we should we could kind of combine these two to a certain degree because you know, I think there's Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Randy: an order of things. That different denominations of Christians teach happen, you know, in a certain way. so you know, we know Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. Randy: that the Bible says in John 3 16, whoever believes, right, will have eternal life, right? That's that's essentially the message. If you believe, you're gonna have eternal life, right? yeah. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Right. Right. And and and then I a couple other sc scripturally, like a couple other things besides just John three sixteen that I've saw that people would use to like kind of back up the sinner's prayer is like Romans ten nine through thirteen. You know what I mean? If you confess Randy: Okay. Pj Verdin: with your mouth, believe in your heart, everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Right. Randy: Exactly. Pj Verdin: So I I I get it. But Randy: It it it it's almost Pj Verdin: But Randy: like the sinner's prayer has taken those kind of verses and then put like a formula to it. Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. Right. And and and so like what what I feel like you see happening in in churches, right? Is you know, there's a new newcomer, first time in church, then there's an altar call, Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: it's like, Hey, have you ever said the sinner's prayer? And he's like, No. So Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: they they they go through this process, you know what I mean? And and I mean you got you you you're trying to figure this out. So the the the pastor, hey, he's he's a guy, he says, Hey, pray this prayer. You know, and now now you've received Jesus. But the thing is, is have you? Because in in my humble opinion, the salvation comes through believing in the gospel and trusting what Jesus did on the cross, not just repeating the right words. You know what I mean? Like it's not just and and I and that I guess that's kind of like what would would maybe if a if bothers me is the right word. is for the people who are bl who who would think, you know, once saved, always saved, in John three sixteen, I believe and I said the prayer. And so they're standing on this very, very maybe false foundation of, you know, what the process actually requires. Randy: Yeah, and and and I remember, you know, back in Denver going to like a a denominational gathering. I can't even remember which one it was, but I remember going, you know, I'm I'm probably seventeen, eighteen years old and I went to like a conference. And in the conference it was really big on teaching teaching us how to share our faith. And and I can't remember what acronym was used. It might have been like ABC, like admit that you're a sinner, believe and then confess. Something like that. But I don't know if that was the acronym. But but then we went Pj Verdin: Right. Right. Randy: and we like we we broke up into groups and we went to the malls and other places around Denver and like just basically like started witnessing to people. and I say that in air quotes witnessing because I don't think that's exactly what you know my understanding of witnessing is today. To me, witnessing is more Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: telling about, you know, how God saved you and what you've witnessed in your life, more than going and preaching, you know, some sort of ABC or or whatever. but we but basically the idea was we went to go witness Pj Verdin: Thank you. Randy: to people and basically just ask them, you know, hey, you know, do you know where you're going where you where when you die? and, you know, why? And if they said, Well, no, I don't really know, or I think I'm gonna go to heaven because, you know, I think hopefully my good outweighs my bad or anything like that, then know we would share some scriptures with them get them to admit they were a sinner ask them if they believed in Jesus and then ask them to confess him as Lord and and basically say you know walk them through the sinner's prayer at that point right so that yeah exactly now you're you're say you're saved yeah exactly praise god you're saved and I Pj Verdin: Right. And then you say, You're saved. You're saved. Congratulations. Right. But Randy: personally you know have sat through dozens of of sermons where I heard it said and I even quoted this on our podcast before I've heard it said if you have never prayed the sinner's prayer, then you know, maybe you're not saved, or you need to at least question if you're saved. I've heard it said a slightly different Pj Verdin: All right. Randy: way that if you can't pinpoint a moment in your life where you gave your heart to God, then maybe you never did. And and honestly, man, I think Pj Verdin: And see Randy: those are valid questions to ask yourself. What do you think? Pj Verdin: Well no, and see I I I can say with a hundred percent certainty, I cannot pinpoint a thing. I think it was very much of a a more gradual progression. I and I and I'm I'm kind of th thankful for it because it's been it's been a very real and and and like like I I felt like I could literally feel myself like you know, like walking this thing out and learning and growing like for for a good little while just, you know, over months of of I mean it just it was just an a great process, a great experience for me. Now look, don't get me wrong. I understand that that you have people who are just radically changed in a moment and praise God for that. I know a bunch of those testimonies. They're awesome to hear. Randy: Sure, sure. Pj Verdin: and and again I I would just say, hey look, you know what, I don't know I don't know the specific date. I think that, you know, it was it was You know, I guess coming from my background and my story, like knowing of God, and then finally deciding to actually start walking with him was just kinda like, you know, it was a process. And and and and again, just to clarify, I as far as the sinner's prayer, I'd said it, but I just I understand that it's you know, th there's nothing wrong with the prayer. Just it's the understanding that it's not the thing, the mechanism that saves you. You know what I mean? Randy: It yeah, it's it's it's not a magic formula that you just pray Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: and now that you're saved, right? And and I totally agree with that. And also I feel similar to you that I can't really pinpoint a moment in time where I could say, you know what, this is where I was confronted with the gospel, and from that point on I believed and I confessed and I received and my life has been changed. I I can't say There was an exact moment. I would say it was a process over time of learning more and questioning a lot and gradually believing more and more and more. And then somewhere along the way, somewhere along my journey of going from questioning to believing, I did hear at some point a pastor say, Hey, if you've never prayed this prayer, then you should pray it. And I said, at that point, I said, you know what? I'm gonna pray this prayer because I do believe in my heart. And I don't know that I've ever told God this, right? I don't know that I've ever actually Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: had a conversation with God. I said, you know what, God, man, I actually do believe this stuff. I actually do believe that you died from my sins and rose from the grave. I actually do believe that you are the one, you know, only way, you know, truth and life, and the only way to the Father. I I don't know that I've ever had this conversation, so I prayed the prayer as like the start of that conversation. Pj Verdin: Absolutely. And and I would say, man, that that's, you know, speaking that way from that heart posture with that understanding, it's like, you know, you you grew up loving your parents, but then there's mig might be an aha moment where you really realize like the things that they sacrificed for you when maybe whenever you were a kid, the things that you didn't know, and you just grow Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: this deeper appreciation. I I I would say that that's kind of how I feel about it. And look, I know this might be a little bit controversial, but you know, I would say if anything, maybe in the very beginning I wasn't believing in the right Jesus. You know what I mean? Because Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: the the thing is is just just as much as everybody out there thinks that you know, I believe in Jesus, yeah. Everybody there's a there's a bunch of different denominations and even religions themselves that that claim to believe in Jesus, but they're not and and the Bible even says if somebody comes preaching another Jesus, you know what I mean? So it's one of those things, the understanding Randy: Right. Well Pj Verdin: that I have of my Lord and Savior today, it even if I would have said the the sinner's prayer and been like, I can tell you the date and where I was, what I was wearing, I don't think that would have been the same Jesus. Just to be honest. Just being honest. Randy: Well, in and let me just say this in my opinion, man, I don't think that you have to have this perfect understanding of who Jesus is in order to be saved. However, however, I do think the most important question ever asked by anyone in the history of the world is when Jesus asked, Who do you say that I am? Right. He asked that of his disciples, Who do you say that I am? He first he asked, Who do they say that I am? Then he said, Who do you say that I am? And when Peter said, You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God, what did he say? He says it wasn't flesh and blood who told you this, Peter. Pj Verdin: Yeah. That knowledge didn't come from you. Yeah. Yeah. Well Randy: Yeah, it didn't come from you. And so I I again, so I my opinion is I don't think you have to have a perfect understanding, but you have to have an understanding of at least that much. And there's, you know, everyone from Islam to to you know Jehovah's Witnesses to mu Mormons who have all sorts of different Pj Verdin: Right. Mormons, yep. Randy: definitions of who Jesus is that doesn't, in my opinion, align to that. Pj Verdin: Right, a hundred percent. And and and I would say, man, that that even some of the the closer you know, religions like you know, I have a a friend of mine, man, I feel bad for him 'cause he's always on on Facebook arguing with Catholics and I feel bad 'cause they're like, man, why you always picking on us specifically and whatever, you know, and he's he I know that his heart's in the right place and he just wants them to kinda see his viewpoint and and maybe he could go about it differently. But but at the same time, man, I've I've seen some pretty strong viewpoints as far as people believing that Catholics don't believe in the same Jesus Christ as as as we do, you know Randy: Right. Right. Pj Verdin: what I mean? Because of deviations. And and and that's not I'm not gonna go down that rabbit hole, but I'm just saying so it's it's one of these Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: things where you know we we you're right, we don't have to be scholars or or pastors or anything like that, be theologians, but it's just realistically Randy: We're not pastors, we're not priests. Pj Verdin: Right right. That's right. But but it's just realistically understanding, you know, because This we're we're saved by grace through faith, faith in Jesus. And it has to be in the the one and only, the true living God. You know what I mean? Or Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: it's just in in the same way Islam is like, yeah, Jesus, he's cool people. I like him. He, you know, I ain't got no beef with Jesus. Like, well. Right. Randy: Yeah. But they have this total but they have a total distorted view of who Jesus is. But but let me let me go back to something you said a second ago. Cause you said that, you know, unlike you and I who had more of this like progressive belief where we, you know, questioned and and learned and and and you know our belief kind of came through that. You mentioned there are some people who pray a sinner's prayer and they feel like, you know, bam, that's the moment, their life changes. And I also want to just say that there's also people who say that about baptism, right? There's they're say they say, Well, I I prayed a prayer, but I didn't feel anything until I was baptized. And then when I was baptized, then it changed. And then there's the opposite end where some people they might have been sprinkled as a baby, but they don't count it until later on when they believe. And now they pray the prayer. And it's like, Well, I got baptized and nothing changed. But now that I prayed the prayer, bam, my life. So so Pj Verdin: Well Randy: there's this this whole spectrum of people who like they focus Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: on a particular thing. to say that this is the moment where they gave their heart to God, right? Pj Verdin: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yep. Well, and and then you you you also see these other other progressions even beyond that. So you you so this is the this is these are the steps that I've noticed. So you you go up to the altar call, right? And you say hey and and again getting back to that, it's like where where the Holy Spirit has to God has to do his part in this. It's not just up, well, I got you up here for this altar call, now you say this prayer. I've done my like you have not even given God an opportunity or the Holy Spirit an opportunity to do their job. You know what I mean? You've just anyways, that's a whole nother thing. But but what this is what I've seen. Come up to the altar call, say the sinner's prayer, then get baptized, and now you're you're feeling good. And they're like, I don't know though. I don't know if you got the Holy Spirit. Have you spoken in tongues yet? Nope, nope. Guess what? Next thing on your list, we just checking them off. You killing it. You on you on Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: the you know what I mean? Randy: Now you gotta do is go speak in tongues. And yeah, you prayed a prayer and now your Pj Verdin: Yes, wow. Well Randy: sins are forgiven. But if you just, you know, receive the spirit of God, now you're gonna speak in tongues and now we'll know that you're saved. And and yeah, and and so I'm glad you brought that Pj Verdin: Right. Now we know you're safe. You're good. After that it's like wow. Randy: up because you know, you know, it makes me think of John MacArthur and and our conversation that we were starting to have, you know, offline about You know, his approach because he is a person that I highly respect. I've listened to him for years, and I would say I agree with probably ninety, ninety-five percent of what he has to say. and I love his take on tongues, and I know you do as well. He has a very clear understanding Pj Verdin: Yeah. Yeah. Randy: of what is tongues and what isn't tongues, and we could come back to that. But one thing I would say about John MacArthur and just about Calvinism in general is see you sort of outline kind of like the Pentecostal view, right? It's like, hey, I I hear prayer, I w I I I I responded to it, I'm forgiven. And then the next step is to like kind of be saved, I guess, if you want to receive the Holy Spirit. The Calvinistic view is that because of God's sovereignty and because of the depravity of human beings, none of us could respond to the gospel because we're all dead in sin. And so they kind of see it a different order. They see it as basically you're dead in sins. And if God calls you and brings you to spiritual life, now you could receive. you could believe, you get the f gift of faith, and now you could bel but believe in Jesus and receive eternal life. So they kind of see it the opposite way as I see it. They see it as you got to be made spiritually alive first. Pj Verdin: Isn't that pretty synonymous with one of the Catholic beliefs w the where the priest is like, Y'all don't need to read your Bible, y'all wouldn't understand it anyways, I'll read it and explain it to you. Like, isn't that kinda you Randy: What do you mean? Pj Verdin: know what I mean? Like w well, because you you're so you're if I'm understanding correctly, like Calvinists believe that like unless God chooses you, then you can't receive the gospel anyways, it's not gonna mean nothing, not gonna make any sense to you. You know what I mean? God God in his sovereignty has to choose you. And and I guess w whenever you were saying that I just thought about how like from my understanding, like Catholic priests will tell like their congregation, like, you don't need to read your Bible because even if you do at Randy: Okay. Pj Verdin: your level, you wouldn't understand it. So I'll read it for Randy: I I see yeah. Pj Verdin: you because I'm one of God's chosen. I'll read it for you and I'll give it to you. You know what I mean? So that you can you can track. You can't do it on your own kind of thing. Randy: Yeah. Yeah. I I see the connection you know, that you're making there. but what I really want to focus on is the order of things and and what I really think happens. Cause what I personally think happens Pj Verdin: Okay. Randy: is I believe that, you know, whether whether you are saved in a moment of recognition where you are just you have that aha moment the first time you hear the gospel, or or whether you, you know, question a lot and it becomes like you believe more and more until finally you have like this epiphany. Or whatever it looks like, I do believe that the bull that the belief comes first. I believe that the belief comes first, come first. And that you believe first and then you receive. And and and where does where does forgiveness come in? Well, that's where I maybe believe even more crazy than most people. I believe that forgiveness actually comes before all of that. I believe that forgiveness comes from the cross and that you are forgiven, whether or not you even know it, whether or not you even care. That forgiveness is what makes salvation possible. And it's only by you know that forgiveness that we even have a chance to believe. And then when we believe and we receive, then we are saved. I don't believe we need to speak in tongues afterwards. I don't believe we need to be baptized afterwards, which Pj Verdin: Right. No. Randy: by the way, are all great things. If you've been given the gift of tongues or you want to go get baptized as a public proclamation, great things. But from my perspective, you are forgiven by the death. burial and resurrection of Jesus. And it doesn't matter if you believe that or not, you are forgiven. Therefore, when you get to the point where you do believe, if that ever happens for you in your life, then you're saved. And you receive the spirit of God at that moment and you have everlasting Pj Verdin: Well Randy: life because of that spirit that's inside of you. Pj Verdin: And you answered I I was gonna ask you to clarify on that one part. I I was gonna ask if you're saying that forgiveness is available to you, even because I I would disagree with what I I guess what I understood you just said, if I'm correct. But I would say that forgiveness is available for everyone because Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, but we only receive that forgiveness through him. So I mean, I I wouldn't Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: say that that the person who has who can care less about Jesus that all their sins or forgiven right now where they are. I think that there it it's a they have availability to the forgiveness of their sins. But I think that if they don't that it only comes through Jesus. So if they don't make that choice to choose and accept him, then there's still a separation between No no I'm asking. Randy: Well hold on. I I I didn't say it comes anyway other than through Jesus. Pj Verdin: No no I'm I'm I'm asking like b because I like I said, so just so we're clear, my position would be a person who doesn't accept Jesus right now, still living in the ways of the world, Their sins Jesus died for their sins, but they are still not forgiven, I would say. They're not forgiven currently in their current state, I would say. Randy: And and and yeah, and that's where I would disagree. I would say that, you know, John the Baptist said, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, not of those who believe, not of those who receive him, not of those who are saved and have everlasting life, not of those who are called or have been baptized of the whole world. I I truly believe that, you know, just like every single person, regardless of how good or how bad they are, they had sin given to them before they were even born through Adam. I truly believe they had their sin removed. It became a non-issue, a moot point at the resurrection through Jesus. Now, where most Christians have a have a qualm with that is because they equate forgiveness with salvation, which I don't. I don't equate those two. I believe there's a lot of forgiven in who are, you know, destined for hell. So how does that work? Well, it's very simple. They Pj Verdin: No, no. Randy: got forgiveness, but they never received life. Pj Verdin: Well, qu I and I would I guess it's a quick question. So according to what what you're s you said, that means that post the cross, the resurrection, that we wouldn't be born in Adam no more, we'd be born born of Christ? I'm asking. Randy: So what what I'm say w what would when you say born of Christ, what do you mean by that? Pj Verdin: So we'll be well because you like 'cause you said, you know, we were we were we're all born into sin, had no choice, but then after the resurrection we're all we all had forgiveness. But I would say to that point, well, no, whenever I was born physically, even though it was two thousand something years later, I was born in in Adam, in the sin of Adam. And then whenever I was reborn, I was reborn into Christ. You see what I'm saying? Like there was a transitional point. So I had to be born into sin to be reborn out of sin, I guess I would say. Randy: I he I hear I hear what you're saying. So you're saying that the water birth, you were born into sin under Adam, therefore the spiritual birth is where you believe you were taken out of your sin in Christ. Pj Verdin: I was reborn into into sinlessness, yes. Randy: Well, I would say I des definitely agree that, you know, when you accept Christ and you're born of the spirit, Pj Verdin: Or not sinlessness, but yeah. Randy: yeah. I mean, I would say you're definitely born into God's family. You're definitely born in in that point, you know, when you have received that spiritual birth, you're born again. My perspective is that is the point where you are you become part of God's family and you have that eternal life, you know, given to you because now you are in him and he is in you. But I would my my perspective is sin sin has already been taken care of before all of that. My perspective is God has already dealt with the sin issue once and for all. We don't need to go to mass. God, you know, Jesus isn't constantly being crucified on a cross. I'm not being forgiven more and more every time I pray and I ask for forgiveness if I sin every day. Yeah, but Pj Verdin: Right. And I I agree with all yeah. Right. Randy: and and I would say just from that same that same perspective, the same things that make me believe that. makes me believe that forgiveness is is no longer an issue for anyone and it's not forgiveness or unforgiveness that causes a person to go to hell. It's simply they either have the life of God or they don't have the life of God. And it's a very sad thing to me to see that someone has nothing stopping them because sin has been, you know, removed as an obstacle. And now all they have to do is open their hand and receive it, but they choose not to. I mean, a a good analogy is like You know, if if I give you a black card that has an unlimited, you know, amount of money on it and you just choose to never use it and swipe it, like you literally, you know, have g been giving something that could, you know, pay all your bills and take care of all your physical needs, but it doesn't do you any good if you never swipe it. Right. It it's kind of like I kind of see so go ahead. Pj Verdin: Well, I I and I'll take you I'll take you one I'll take it one further than that. So this this is kinda how I see I I see what you're saying. But in my mind, this is how it works. You know, it if if you know God's judge, jury, and executioner, right? And you have a court date and all you gotta do is show up and he's already paid the price and forgiven you, but you never show up, you're like, Nope, I'm I'm I know I did I know I'm wrong. I'm I'm not going over there. Even though God's like, all you gotta do is show up and and look, I'm I'll give you your pardon. You're forgiven. And you never show up. Then you end up with a warrant and you're on the run because you never actually went to him to receive. He's like, Man, all you got to do is come to me. Here's your forgiveness. You're good. Don't ever worry about. But if you never go, then you never receive that forgiveness. It's available to you. He's waiting. Like, like you said, he here, here you go. You you can come and get this, and you know, or like in your analogy, like if if if he's like, hey. Randy: Well see see it and I and I well hold on real quick. Your analogy I think makes sense for life, for receiving life, but I don't think it makes sense for receiving forgiveness. Pj Verdin: Well so like I I would say in in i i you you said if if somebody gave you a black card, well you have to go to that person to get that black card to swipe it and and never, you know, n never have to worry about running out. You ha there has to be you have to come to i in order to receive the thing. At some point there has to be a a coming together. Randy: Yeah. Yeah. So our I think our analogies are maybe our analogies are breaking down. Let's let's look at what the Bible actually says though. Because the Bible says that the wages of sin are fill in the blank. Death. Death. Okay. Okay. Okay. So Pj Verdin: Death, a hundred percent. And I'll have fallen short and I'll I'll send and fall short of glory to God. Yeah. Randy: if everyone has fallen short and everyone has sinned and the wages of sin Pj Verdin: Mm-hmm. Randy: is death. Okay. And that death has already been paid for. Then what does that mean for all of our sins? Everyone's sin Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: led to death. That death has already been paid for. So what does that say about everyone's Pj Verdin: I I Randy: sins? Pj Verdin: I agree that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. I a hundred percent agree with you. I I do. I we we know that, but I'm just saying it it's it's the the idea of just because he made sin and and grace and salvation in the whole nine available to you doesn't mean that that it you you can you have access to it unless you receive it from him, is all I'm saying. It that's saying Randy: He didn't just make he didn't just make forgiveness available though. Life was made available, but forgiveness was not just made available. For forgiveness, that was a box check. You know, I sent the final I sent I sent a hundred thousand dollar payment to your bank to pay off your mortgage. You didn't have to do a single thing. If you want to keep sending payments to the bank, go ahead. You're just wasting your time and money. If you never go to the bank and receive the deed, that's on you, man. But I sent the payment. The bank doesn't think you owe them a thing. You could sit there in your mind and keep saying, I gotta pay the bank. I gotta pay the bank and you'll be wrong. Pj Verdin: Well, I mean okay. I mean I I like I said, I I yeah, yeah. Randy: We we get we can agree to disagree, brother. That I mean, that's just how I see it. I see it as I I think to me, I just think most Christians struggle because they they they they tie forgiveness with salvation. And because those two things in my mind are, you know, 2,000 years apart, at least for me personally, they're 2,000 years apart. I I disconnect them and I see forgiveness as something people, whether they are in the world or in the, you know, are believers, they st they're still trying to get, man. And it blows my mind that people are still trying to get something they've already been given. Pj Verdin: No, I mean and we I I think we agree on on more than we disagree on. I would say a hundred percent once for all forgiveness for all, past, present, future. You know what I mean? There's no need to, you know, that one of my favorite analogies is and especially whenever it comes to these people who think that they gotta, you know, confess their sins every day, every day, every day. It's like even according to your own logic, like if you look back in in scripture, you know, on Yom Kippur Day of Atonement, they did it once a year and you think The the blood of Jesus is lesser than the blood of animals. And so you gotta do it every day. Like that's kind of disrespectful to the same person that you would call your Lord and Savior if you're thinking about it really, you know? So but anyways I I Randy: I agree. I agree. I mean, I I Pj Verdin: yeah. Randy: yeah, and and I and again, it's I think you're right. I think we agree on more than we don't agree on. you know, so we could we could keep going, but I think at the end of the day, the point that we were trying to get to was in terms of the order of how things happen. You know, my order might be a little different than your order. I think both of our orders are a lot different than like the Calvinist perspective and the Catholic pers perspective. or anyone who, you know, holds to a Pentecostal view that that thinks like you're not even going to be saved, you know, until you receive the gift of tongues. there's a whole wide spectrum. And so when we're talking about, you know, whether a prayer saves you, I think we both believe the answer is no. It's not the prayer itself that saves you, right? It's more of that position of your Pj Verdin: No, no. Correct. Randy: heart. The the way I kind of look at that, you made the analogy earlier of like a parental type of relationship. I I look at it more like you know. The bride of Christ. I look at it more like a spouse. Like I love my wife and we're married. And I could have sat there in the corner and loved her all I wanted. If I never opened my mouth and told her we wouldn't be married today, right? And in the Pj Verdin: Right. Right. Randy: same way, I could have sat there believing in Jesus all I wanted in my heart and in my mind. And but to me, I had to open my mouth and have a conversation with God about it. Whatever that conversation looked like, whether it's a traditional sinner's prayer. Or what have you, I needed to say to God, God, I actually do believe in this stuff and I actually do love you and I actually am grateful for what you've done for me. I actually do want you to be the Lord of my life. Show me what that looks like. You know, live your life through me. Help me to love like you. Like I had to have that conversation at some point, regardless of what the actual words were, for it to actually become real to me and to become a real relationship. Pj Verdin: Right. Well and yeah, I mean I I normally go back to the thief on the cross and you know, I you you see just and well there's a lot you don't see actually. I think there's more in what you don't see. But I mean, what we do know for sure is that he didn't go through none of the steps that most of these people look at. You know what I mean? That he he just went straight to believing in Jesus and Jesus like, Yep, you're good. You're coming. You're coming with Like you know what I mean? So it's just and I love that. 'Cause I mean it it does just go to show that You know, people and and I guess that's that's my my bigger point here. you know, I I Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: man it it the crazy thing for me is this, brother. I think that you would be very, very hard pressed to find a church, any church, almost anywhere, that has not deviated so far from scripture, man, as far as like the the the ways they do things, the reason why they do things, and and I'm Like I see it more and more. The more I dig and and here's the crazy thing, man, like sometimes I'll find something and and I'll be like, wait a minute. dang, that's that's pretty simple and it makes sense. But I'm like, I feel like I I feel like I I knew this at one point and I let somebody talk me out of it. And I'm like, you know what? I bet you that's the if I had to guess. I had one of those moments where maybe, you know, the Holy Spirit was like whispering, trying to give me some discernment, like, hey, look, this is this it's a lot easier than than this person over here is trying to make it sound. But then, you know, having them in my face louder, I was just like, wait, wait, okay. No, no, okay. And I just went with it because it's like, well, everybody else is going with that. And it's just crazy. I I think that that happens so often to if I'm being a hundred percent honest, because man, the even the the little conversations that I have, the the things that pop up, the questions that people have, and and and I still have not recovered from the stat of what was it, twenty seven percent of the Bible people or only twenty percent of of of Protestants have ever read the Bible, whatever it was, like, dude, Randy: Right. Yeah. Pj Verdin: you know, you think about William Tyndale died to get that thing written in English so that it was access accessible to everybody, just to have, you know, here we be at this point in time where people have access and they can care less. Like it's just these things, man. And so I it it's It's a scary, scary time. And and look, I heard this and I'm be honest with you, it it it resonated with me. I think it was a a a pastor that I I heard say, I fully believe that God is less concerned with the sins we commit and a lot more concerned with the lies that we believe. He's like, because Jesus already died for sin. He's like, Randy: Mm. Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: but how many times does he warn us in scripture Do not be deceived. If somebody else comes around preaching a different G like there's all these warnings out here. The things that are gonna tickle your ears Randy: That's good. Pj Verdin: and you like you know what I mean? I'm like, that's that's makes that that really makes a whole lot more sense. But but all you hear is people out here preaching something. you gotta sin less. You are you not you know, it's all sin focused and and it's like, man, sin's forgiven. What at what e even with you and I, doesn't matter what point you believe it is, we both agree that Yeah, but we agree Randy: We could disagree on the point. We but we agree that it's forgiven. Pj Verdin: that it's It's forgiven. So but it's like, man, you know what I mean? Like but a and and I look at how many how many s slight subtle ways they slide in everything being works based. You know what I mean? Like, Randy: Uh-huh. Pj Verdin: well, i i if guess what? If you read your bible more or if you repent every day, if you d like it's all it's all comes back to me, I what I do, what I and it's like geez. It it's it's Randy: Yeah, it's it seems like all of Christendom is a a sin reduction program. And and Pj Verdin: Yes. Randy: it's and it's like, why are we so focused on something that we all pretty much agree that has already been dealt with on the cross? I mean, different denominations Pj Verdin: Yes. Randy: argue to what degree it's been dealt with, but I mean, look, the Bible's pretty clear about it. It's it's been dealt with, it's a done deal, and yet it seems like all of Christianity is all about how to try to get people to Sin less when, in my opinion, we should, you know, I think you have a great point. We should be focused more on the truth and and uncovering lies, because I do think there's a lot of lies out there. And I think also we should be focused on how do we love more? Like, I think you will naturally sin less if you love more. So let's focusing on focus on how do we love more. It you know, I always like to use my weight loss analogy, man, because so many times I've been on these diets where like I lost weight. And then I gained it back and I gained more back than I than when I started. And it wasn't until finally I met this trainer who told me he broke it down. He said, look, he said that every time you go through these cycles, he's like, you're losing fat, you're losing water, you're losing muscle. He's like, but then when you gain it back, guess what you're not gaining? You're not gaining back muscle. So every time you go through these cycles, you're coming out with less and less muscle and more and more fat. So therefore, what should you do? Well, you should focus on weight training because you need to be building muscle the whole time. So that way when you lose weight, you know that you're not losing muscle. You're losing the what you want to lose, which is fat. And in it, I think it's the same way. We don't need to be focused so much on losing sin. We need to be focused on building love. And if we focus on building love, we're gonna naturally sin less because how can you sin against yourself, your God, your neighbor if you are focused on loving yourself, your God, your neighbor. Pj Verdin: Well, it and and and the crazy thing is is, you know, we know that what Jesus' commandment was was, you know, on that's written on our new hearts, you know what I mean? New Testament, New Covenant commandment was that we love others as he loved us, right? Well, it's like, okay, well, how how could we know how much he loved us unless we accept all the grace that he gives us that we can't outsend his grace? Like he's like, I'm not worried about sin no more. Jesus paid for that. Let me show you how much I love you by the fact that I'm I'll never and this is another thing that blows my mind. You have, I think, what is it, two main verses in the Bible that that Christian and and I maybe not non-believers, but a lot of Christians are afraid of, right? You have the verse where in Matthew, whenever Jesus says, Depart from me, I never knew you. Then you have in Revelation where it's you know the analogy is given that's taken out of context that if you're lukewarm, I'll spit you out my mouth. And even though there's no other reference to you know salvation. being like us in God's mouth or whatever Christians get scared. Bro, there are like, I don't know, something like fifty other verses in the Bible that say you're chosen, you're loved, you're redeemed, you're you're sanctified, you're I'll never leave you nor like all these things, all these promises of God to f to us, like, hey, listen, you're good. And we let two of them like throw us into this frenzy of like, my God, am I gonna be saved? What do I ask? What do I need to do? What am I, you know, it's like, bro, That i it you let those two verses put your focus back on you instead of keeping your eyes focused on Jesus, man. It's it's crazy. Randy: Right. Right, right. And so, okay, so speaking on Jesus, I do want to I do want to change topic slightly. Okay. So Pj Verdin: Okay. Randy: let me set this up in a way. so I've been thinking a lot recently as I've been studying. You know, you and I talked previously about Michael Heiser, and I've been studying a lot more about what he has to say and and and a lot of the things that he teaches. I've been thinking a lot more about the Trinity because of it, and it's kind of led me down to thinking about. The analogy of like the simulation, right? And I'm not saying I'm not a guy who's gonna say I believe in simulation theory or living in a simulation, whatever. But I do think that the world that God has established could be compared to a simulation. It's a fair comparison, in my opinion. Okay. And so I say that to say this. When I think about that as like the framework, it helps me to make sense of something like the Trinity, first of all. It helps me to make sense. If I think of how Jesus was praying. To God, because God is outside of space and time. That's not much different than my character on my video game being inside the game world while I'm like sitting on my couch. That's kind of how it helps me personally to understand in a very simple way what was happening. And then I go even further. Okay. And here's where I want to get your opinion. So I go even further, and I think about Acts 224, where Peter says that. You know, talking about Jesus, God raised him up because it was not possible for him to be held by death. And I was thinking about that verse, man. And I'm interested in your what your thoughts here because when I think about how God rules the universe, I see miracles every day that doesn't necessarily require God's hand directly. Interacting. Matter of fact, I believe that he wants you and I to be the miracle in most cases. He wants you and me to be the answer to someone's prayers. He wants us to be the hands and feet of Jesus. I believe that it's a miracle that the sun rises every day, but I don't see God holding the sun and moving it up or spinning the earth. He's set mechanisms in place, he's built processes and rules and physics in the universe to make things happen. Okay. So when I read a verse like this, and this is you know me putting a big question mark out there because I don't know the answer, but I'm just I just like to speculate on things like this. I think why wasn't it possible for death to hold Jesus? Is it because of a who he was? B because of you know God like miraculously, miraculously intervening, or C, because of the laws of the universe that because he lived a life that didn't earn death. Like the rest of us, death had no claim. And maybe the answer is all of the above. I don't know. But I I just wanted to bring that up and get your thoughts. Because the more I started to think about that, I started to think that's that's that's that's Pj Verdin: Yeah, I yeah, I I think death could death couldn't hold him because he it's a lesser it's a lesser entity, it's a lesser being. And I mean ultimately, yeah, you know, the one of the characteristics of of God is that he's eternal, even though his flesh died just like ours are, we're called to him and our we will be eternal through him. and the only way that that makes sense is is is through him because we did have he has no beginning or no end. That's what makes him eternal, Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: right? We we had Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: a beginning. We might not see our quote unquote end or whatever, but we're made eternal through him. Yeah, ultimately I just think it it's like kinda like the same concept of like you know, why couldn't a a midget ho stop the world's strongest man from, you know what I mean, walking out the door just 'cause he's just a lesser, you know, he's Randy: Whoa whoa. Pj Verdin: a this lesser entity. Like I think sorry. Randy: Well, if if I if I throw a baseball up in the in the air, it's gonna come down, right? It's there's laws of Pj Verdin: Uh-huh. Randy: physics that govern the universe that says it has to come down, right? but if I throw like a paper airplane up in the air, it might glide for a while before it comes down, right? Yeah, eventually Pj Verdin: It'll still come down, it'll just take a little while long. Yeah. Yeah. Randy: it'll come down. you know, if if I think about the laws that got us set in place, and then I think and I go back to Adam. Adam sinned and he died. But he was made as a perfect being. He didn't have original sin. Let me ask you a crazy question. What if instead of tempting Adam and Eve? And I know we're like going tinfoil hat here. Big question mark. What if instead of tempting Adam and Eve, Pj Verdin: I like it. Randy: Satan say what if Satan would have flat out killed Adam? Would death have been able to hold Adam? Pj Verdin: Yes, I think so. Because he's still the creation. But it doesn't matter. Randy: But he hadn't earned death. But he hadn't earned death. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. Pj Verdin: But that doesn't mean I mean I d I don't think that look, what Abel didn't earn death either, but he was able to die, you know what I mean? by Cain's hand. Randy: Well, Abel was born with original sin, just like the rest of us. He didn't he didn't live a perfect life. Pj Verdin: R right, but I mean I I again like going back to I think that Adam would have been lesser than than, you know, the the the position that death played because I believe in the same way like you know, they have the sons of God, right? Doesn't it the revelation say that that that basically the Satan and death and and everything gets thrown into the to the fiery pit, you know what mean? So I death is a is its own entity. You know what I mean? Like I guess some people, you know, have this picture of the Grim Reaper. Well, whatever it is, I think that it's a it has God has this hierarchy, right, in the spiritual realm. And I think that a hundred percent even if if if the serpent would have just bit Adam in his neck and he would have died, I think that the the the greater the greater death could have came and and and you know, took him and then I'm sure God could have brought him back or raised him like you know, Jesus did with Lazarus or what have you. But I think Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: that yeah, I think that death could have could have taken him. Randy: So so what if, what if, and this is, you know, again, tinfall hat territory, this is total speculation. What if the spiritual beings, Satan included, obviously not God because he's God, he's sovereign over everything. But what if they have no power in this world to actually do anything and they have to influence humanity to do it for them, or else it just doesn't happen? So let's just say, even though, you know. Satan had sinned in his heart with his pride. Sin hadn't actually physically entered the world yet until he tempted Adam and Eve. So if sin hadn't entered the world yet, therefore death hadn't entered the world yet, and they had not done anything to merit death because sin equals death, then what if Satan would have came and somehow killed them? If that was at all possible, what if they would have been rejected? Because They hadn't merited it. What if that's part of the operating system that God has set in place, just like that ball coming back to earth when you throw it up? Adam would have just rose. Crazy thought. Pj Verdin: I don't that is a crazy thought. I agree. That's a crazy thought. That that is Randy: Cra crazy thought, enough said. Just a crazy thought. But because I've just been thinking more and more, how does God actually govern? How does he actually rule? He delegates and he sets up parameters. He sets up a system. And so when I read that first, man, it just had me thinking like, is it because he was God? And by the way, I don't see death as an entity or as a being. I see it more as like a force. I see it more as like a yeah, I guess a force is probably the best way, or just the maybe the opposite of life. but when I saw that, I thought about it and it just had me get thinking very deeply. Why couldn't death hold him? Was it just because he was God? Was it just because he was perfect? Or was it because, you know, he had lived this perfect life of faith? Therefore, there was no nothing to grasp onto. I I don't know, man, but it just, it just, it just had me going down this like deep, this deep tunnel of thought where I was just like, Pj Verdin: I get like that sometimes. But no, I so I would be curious, I I mean it i in that in that verse in Revelation where it talks about throwing death and and who like you just think it's just like just the concept of it and like throw it into the like what is your take on that verse? Like are you 'cause you say you I and and and I'm I mean I to me it sounds like an Randy: when it throws it throws him into the lake of fire. Pj Verdin: Yeah, death s Dragon, you know, all the demons, those into a lake of fire. Like to me, whenever it's listing out all these other like pivotal characters, I guess that's where I get the association in my head of of it being like a a being and not just a mean, 'cause I agree, it is just it's just a like it's an absence of life. You know what I mean? It's not like Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: light and dark is not necessarily a character, it's just one's light one well, I mean Jesus is the light. But anyways, I don't know. I don't know. I was just curious it what was your take on that? Because that's where I kinda got that from. Randy: It it to me, to me, yeah, to me, and I haven't heard I've not done a lot of study on that passage or or heard a lot of teaching on it, but to me, when I when you know, my first is a pr impression is it sounds like pi places. When I hear like death and the grave were emptied out, Hades was thrown into the lake of fire, these all sound like places that are either being emptied or thrown into a place of destruction. That's what it sounds like to me, like places, locations. Pj Verdin: I got to. Okay. I was just curious. No biggie. Man, so listen, Randy: Yeah. But but Pj Verdin: w we covered a lot of ground, but we we definitely Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: got some some territory that we need to to get to. Randy: So so death, so death couldn't hold Jesus, but we all agree that he died, right? And what happened Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: after he died, a lot of Christians have speculated for you know 2,000 years as to what actually happened during Pj Verdin: Yes. Randy: he during those three days, right? But we know eventually after the three days he was resurrected. But now there's some new theories out there. Pj Verdin: I I can tell you what yeah. I can tell you I I don't know what exactly what happened, but I'm positive what didn't happen. Let's let's let's just put it like that. Let's just put it like that. Randy: We're pretty sure this didn't happen. So do you got the clip pulled up or you want me to pull it up? Pj Verdin: I pull I don't got it. We if you wanna pull it up. Insane. Randy: he said it's finished. He said one of the things he said is, Lord, Lord, why have you forsaken me? Because he had to go to hell the same way you will go to hell. Complete, completely All right. So Pj Verdin: It's ins insane. It blasphemy. Bla insane. And and the crazy thing is for me is I've I've seen this dude before. He's the the pastor of a church called Lionheart, I believe. And I've seen some of his stuff, man. Randy: Pastor Otha. Pj Verdin: And I think that's his name, Otha Turnbalk or something like that. and and he he Randy: Turnbull, yeah. Ur Oath of Turnbow. Pj Verdin: he said a bunch of things that are kinda like, you know, I mean, I don't know, man, but this I I just I can't get I can't get behind this. This is just insane. Insane. Randy: Yeah, I I mean, I've heard people say, and and I know it's it's a it's a point of controversy. Not everyone agrees. And and I don't know. I I don't have a lot of thoughts on this. I have a lot more thoughts on salvation and the gospel than anything else and and the new covenant. But I've heard people say they think Jesus went down to hell during those three da three days, for various different reasons. I don't know that I've ever heard anyone say that he went down to hell to be tormented though. you know, maybe to release the Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: captives or get the keys of death and hell or things like that. But this guy's pretty adamant he believes Jesus went down there to suffer in hell. Pj Verdin: Right. And and and be basically at the mercy of these demons who we just we just finished going over the the the verse where Peter's talking about how death couldn't hold but but demons have the power to sexually assault the the Messiah? Absolutely asinine. It just I don't know where man, it it and and this is one of them things, man, like Randy: No pun intended. Pj Verdin: I s it's it's just it's man, it it blows my mind. It it frustrates me, it really does because, you know, like I said, I've seen some of his stuff and he he did he make some valid points like we've talked about before. You know, like even with the Joel Olsteens and those kind of guys and Stephen Furtix, like y you know, you can't always throw the baby out with the bathwater. You just have to be able to discern and and while kinda like we circling back to what we talked about earlier. If you spend enough time in your word digging and and kinda getting to know God better and and You are allowing that the Holy Spirit to be, you know, in the driver's seat, like, you know, guiding your discernment through these things. Great. But how many people of the the what 27% that know God's word think that he's he's wrong? Or how many people are gonna hear that and be wow, that's crazy. And then next thing you know, this becomes an oral tradition. I think that that's how the church has gotten here as it is. You what I mean? And this Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: is this is in every pulpit across America teaching this. this doctrine of demon crap that Jesus was a of of it's just oof yeah. Randy: Yeah, it's it's it's pretty sickening, man. And look, I'll I'll always say this is this, you know, Christians don't read their Bible enough. Like you keep quoting the stats on it, and it's it's pretty depressing. But even amongst the Christians who do read, let me just say this: reading is not enough. You have to study. There's a difference between reading the Bible and studying the Bible, and you know. Pastors, especially, man, if you are in that position of leadership and authority over people, it ain't enough to just read it. You have to study it. You don't have to be a theologian, but you should learn from theologians before you get up there and start saying a lot of crazy stuff like this. When you are in a position of leadership over a church, it's one thing for two guys like us to sit here with big question marks and tinfoil hats and say, I don't know how things work. What if it works like this? It's something else to stand up in front of a hundred people or a thousand people and tell people that Jesus was being sexually assaulted so that you don't have to. Jesus was burning in hell so that you don't have to. This is just crazy stuff, man. And I don't know any serious, you know, scholars, biblical scholars or theologians who would agree with that. Pj Verdin: No, absolutely not. And and and don't hear what we're not saying. You know, we're not advocating for well, you know, you're gonna be you're a better Christian if you read No. It we're we're talking about you have to you have to at some point wanna invest in in your relationship to the same extent that you would do just about anything else that you really care about. You're gonna invest time in the things that you care about. And and and this is one of those things actually getting to know the Bible. And like Randy just said, we you know, we don't have to be pastors or or or priests or theologians or any of those things to love the Lord and want to deep dive and and these kind of things absolutely blow my mind because like you said, you're you're making a proclamation. You're basically, in my opinion, it's like defamation of character for the Messiah, the you know, the savior of the world. And it and and all i for for what? For views in in a in a worldly sense, you know, a lot of people get behind this pulpit to start saying these things these oral traditions or, you know, twist this these scriptures for for their own gain as it is. You know what I mean? And it's just it's the wild, wild west out here, especially in America. You know what I mean? But yeah, man, it's just it's fr it's crazy. It's frustrating. Randy: It it is, man. And it's like, you know, this is why Christians need to read the Bible more. They need to study more. And they need to hold their pastors and their church leaders accountable. We have to do that, man. Pj Verdin: Accountable, hundred percent. Randy: Either you vote with your feet and you get up and you get out, or you go and confront them. And if they don't repent, if they don't have a body of elders or some sort of accountability built in, then you know, that's that would remove them or discipline them or correct Pj Verdin: Mm-hmm. Randy: them in some form. Way, shape, or form, if that's not built in, then you gotta vote with your feet and you gotta get out of there. I don't care if all your friends go there. I don't care if all your family goes there. And look, I do believe that you know the church is there to do life together and that we should be a community of believers. I do believe that. And I know it's hard, but it was hard for the disciples to leave the synagogue. It was hard for the disciples Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. Yeah. Randy: to leave the temple. And they did it. Why did they do it? Because they were following the way, the truth, and the life. And and we as Christians, especially in America, we got it so easy. We're not the persecuted church like there is in China or in some of these Muslim Pj Verdin: Amen. Amen. Randy: countries where people are dying for their faith. All we're saying is, you know, know your yet right now, today. Yeah, I mean, Christians have Pj Verdin: Right now. They dying right now. Yeah. Yeah. Randy: been killed throughout all of these centuries, and it's happening even right now, today. And Christians in America won't even stand up enough to say, you know what, I'm not gonna keep going to this church. Where this pastor is saying a bunch of lies that I know is not true, because my friends go there, or my mom goes there, or or our my Bible study group goes there. Like, give me a break. Like, then what are we doing here then, people? What are we doing here when we keep giving money to these mega church pastors so that they could keep growing and spreading their lies and and and they keep building their own business and their boat, their own empire, not God's kingdom. Because if they were building God's kingdom. Then they would be using all of the resources that they have at their disposal to solve real problems in their community and to build up people, not to buy new airplanes, not to buy new houses, not to buy new cars. Pj Verdin: That's right. Yeah, man. That that's very well said. And and it's sad. And and I think the one of the problems is is it's hard to hold your pastor accountable whenever you don't know what that what he's saying isn't right because you've not done, you know, you've not spent your time in your word. and and a Randy: Right. Right. Pj Verdin: hundred a hundred and ten percent like you said, man, check your heart about why you're going to the church that that you're going to and and and if that's really being spirit led Or being led by the flesh because guess what? People think that that the flesh is always shows up as this ugly thing. But Paul says, Hey, look, fleshly, I was the rabbi of rabbis, you know, I was did this, did that, like everybody respected me. But he like, That was all fleshly. So I mean, you know, that does show up. And and and lastly, you know, I would say this. If if you are sitting in a church where you do know and you your the spirit has discerned, you know, consent by omission is a real thing. You know what mean? Y all those people Randy: It is. Yep. Pj Verdin: around you that that you know are hearing a word that you don't agree with and you know that it's not accurate and you're just going with the flow, man. I I I just I don't that's like you said, vote with your feet. even Jesus told Randy: What would your feet? Pj Verdin: his discipl yeah, Jesus told his disciples very, very directly, sh shake the dust from your feet, keep it moving, man. Just I mean so Randy: Exactly. Yep. And and and and and again, don't hear what we're not saying. I I'm not saying get up and start yelling at the pastor. I'm not saying get up Pj Verdin: No. Randy: and cause a scene and be disruptive every time a pastor says something that you don't agree with. I do believe there are open handed and closed handed issues. And if you're the type of person that you're like, hey, you know, I heard a question, Pastor, I'm gonna go and ask you about it and and you get a good response and you have a good conversation, great. If you are that person and the pastor basically shuts you down and says, like, maybe you need to find another church, go find another church. Or if they're just like not even open to having the discussion, they don't have any accountability. There's no council of elders or anyone else that's saying, Hey, can we talk about what you said this last week? To where they show up the following week and apologize and repent in front of the the congregation. If that's not happening, there is no accountability, then you have basically a a Christian dictatorship inside of this community, then that's when I would say you need to probably, you know, think about other options. And and you know, I Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. Randy: there's unfortunately not a lot of great options out there, even though there are a lot of Christians and a lot of great churches, you're there's a there's a lot of this kind of stuff that's happening. Pj Verdin: Yep. And I like you said, go in peace. By all means, go in peace. You know what I mean? It doesn't need to be a big no i and and and and I would say pray. Keep praying for for the the church as a whole, the church body. I mean the the bride of Christ church. But yeah, but yeah, just man, it's it's it's rough out there. It really is. So Randy: It is. And there's so much crazy stuff like this out there. We're just barely scratching the surface. The series that we did on the mega church pastors, you know, the little clips we've played here and there, it's barely scratching the surface. I I'm I'm I'm I'm interested if you know anybody out there listening has seen other salacious remarks like this, either in person or things that they've heard about. Let us know. Let us know what you guys are hearing out there because I'm sure we've barely scratched the surface. Pj Verdin: a hundred percent. And not not even to to open a whole nother can of worms. But I would I would be very interested to hear any kind of feedback on on, you know, the people's understanding, kind of like we we talked about during the the mega church thing, like, you know, to me, this is how I look at it. If if you are going to church, and let's just say it's a good church, right? But I mean, you're and you're hearing this word and you're like, yep, you know, there's no new revelation, there's no new growth. You're just in there taking up a seat. I and look, I'm not saying that that you're right or wrong. I would just say like in my opinion, according to what I understand from the the the the you know, the beginning of the those days whenever the church was being formed, like those are the people that was going out and and and pointing people to go back to the church. It wasn't taking up a seat. They were saying, Hey, listen, man, if y'all haven't heard this word, I already got enough of it in me to where I could I I know exactly what he's gonna say. Let me go out here and tell it to people, send them back over here. Instead of just sitting there with this consumer mindset of like, I mean, yeah, I I know all this stuff. I'm not getting anything out of out of it. But you know, it is Sunday and or it is Wednesday, you know, it's this this is normally where I sit. I hey look some all my people like that's not what the church was designed for either. You know what I mean? And like I said, just like you know, the the the sp being spiritual could be bad and and and sin could look good. You just gotta know, you gotta be able to discern and that that takes guidance from from what we already have indwelling who we already have indwelling us right now is the Holy Spirit. So Randy: Absolutely well said, brother. And believe it or not, I think we covered everything that we wanted to cover today and then some. So I know we had a variety of topics. I think we hit them all. So what do you think? Pj Verdin: Yep. Man, I I think this is a good place to stop for today because I mean it's there's just so much, man. i it's a crazy time, Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: a lot of stuff going on. But but yeah. Randy: Right on, man. Well, I think that does it for this episode of the walk talk. Thank you all so much for listening. If you haven't already, please like and subscribe and follow the show and tell a friend about it too. And before you go, make sure that you let us know what you think in the comments down below. God bless. Pj Verdin: God bless.