Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / Who will be the best team in the world 2025 plus Irish star Andrew Trimble

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Who will be the best team in the world 2025 plus Irish star Andrew Trimble · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

0:00
Right, welcome to Rugby Rivals.
0:02
We've got Victor Mattfield joining us from an unnamed golf course in South Africa.
0:07
And Sir John Kuhl in his, resplendent in his black glasses this week.
0:12
Oh, good morning.
0:14
For me, Ricardo.
0:15
Good evening for you.
0:16
Yeah, exactly.
0:17
I thought I'd have a bit of a style change this week back there, you know.
0:21
I like to change my glasses in and out.
0:23
I just felt a little bit of conservatism this week.
0:28
Is it because of all the abuse last week on line or what?
0:32
No, I love that stuff, mate.
0:34
I love that.
0:35
That's what I thrive on, right?
0:38
I get it.
0:39
That's fantastic.
0:45
You should be a pretty happy man, mate, with your balls getting up.
0:49
I'm very happy.
0:50
I must say, I was a bit worried last week.
0:53
I mean, if you look at that shark's team on paper, it's a fantastic team.
0:57
I mean, you've been pulled out.
0:59
I just, I was definitely a little less nervous, but it's still a quality side.
1:07
And yeah, I mean, they're 10 minutes before halftime with a defendant with 13 men.
1:12
Only line just showed a lot of character.
1:16
But also, I just think there's something missing with the sharks at the moment.
1:20
I'm not sure.
1:22
And I should probably shouldn't say it, but they coach that well at the moment.
1:27
The interesting thing for me was that the bulls started with, like, how dominant, which
1:33
I'm sure you would love, not something I get off too much about, but the scrum was incredibly
1:37
dominant early.
1:39
And then the sharks seemed to recover a wee bit, but it just jeemed it from the beginning,
1:44
like, three things for me, like the dominance of the bulls from a physicality point of view.
1:50
Firstly, secondly, like for a New Zealander watching just a physicality of that, especially
1:56
the first 40 minutes, I felt that the physicality and the second half stayed, but the skill level
2:04
dropped off.
2:05
Yeah, I must say, I actually watched the Blues Chiefs game in the morning.
2:09
You must be very happy, John, as well, with the Blues pulling through there.
2:14
And when I watched the South African game, it's just said a little bit of a difference.
2:17
I still think the physicality is always there with New Zealand teams.
2:21
A lot of guys talk about the skill level, but there's always physicality as well.
2:27
They just like to do that at a different tempo, probably than us.
2:30
We probably have more direct, try and make least mistakes.
2:35
But yeah, the physicality in that game, and I must say, garlic walko low is just unbelievable,
2:40
this year.
2:41
I mean, he played against Ox and Che, Bongi, Vincent Koch.
2:45
That's a three front rows that always come on with a bomb squad and just kills everything
2:50
in front of them.
2:52
This is the third time this year that Walco just destroyed him.
2:56
And I mean, he had a Lucid and Janindrik Vaisil, so it's actually a hooker.
3:00
He's seen the Springbok squad as a hooker, just helping out to have had a Stienic Tom being injured.
3:08
So it's unbelievable.
3:09
And I mean, that's probably the only chance the Blues have against Linster.
3:15
If Walco can get out there with that front row, with that back, and just dominate the scrum,
3:20
win penalties, I looked at Stats last night in that, with Linster and the Blues,
3:27
where I think Linster has given away like 65 scrum penalties and the Blues have one like 69 scrum penalty.
3:34
So that's one area where the Blues can maybe get upper hand, and if they can use that,
3:40
go to touch, get territory and position in the right areas, then maybe there's a chance.
3:47
I thought like when you're playing those games, like do you know what it's like?
3:51
Every player needs to be on his game.
3:53
And I thought there was a couple of guys a little bit off the game, and I want to pronounce his name like Lookamila Am, the centre.
4:00
Lookamila Am.
4:02
Lookamila.
4:03
Lookamila Am.
4:04
I felt he was like one of the best players.
4:07
He just seems to be what's up with him as he's trying to hard.
4:11
Like he made some unrecognizable errors.
4:16
Yeah, the one thing about Lookamila is knowledge about his game and his soft skills,
4:23
just doing the right things at the right time.
4:25
And he's been injured a lot in the last two, three years.
4:30
He hasn't played as often as he probably needs to play to just get that feel of the game.
4:36
And there's a youngster blown in his neck and there's at the sharks as well that's played for the junior box,
4:45
and it's a fantastic player.
4:46
So maybe he's feeling some of the pressure, maybe trying to hard.
4:49
I'm a bit worried with the two knee injuries that he had, that he maybe lost some pace as well.
4:55
He's definitely starting to form at the moment.
4:57
The other one I'm worried about is Jayden Hendrix.
5:00
I love him as a player, but he's just not as sharp as always.
5:05
And with Williams being injured at the moment, I think he'll probably be close to our first choice with a box.
5:13
So yeah, definitely one or two players in the shark side that's not quite there where they want to be.
5:20
But I mean, I've looked at the guy like Sia.
5:24
I thought also not that he's based at the moment, but every time they get to Russ,
5:29
he somehow he just gets the base out of them and all of a sudden they different players.
5:34
So let us understand Victor one thing.
5:36
I don't understand one thing, like I think Sia is an amazing player and an amazing leader of men, right?
5:44
I still don't understand, and I promise Ricardo and I promise myself I wouldn't talk about the bomb squad.
5:50
So I understand bringing it on replacements, but when you're down like that and things aren't going your way,
5:55
I still don't understand why they replace Sia.
5:59
Is that pre-organized? Is it something, is it to do with him?
6:04
Does he not an 80 minute play? I just don't get it because I would have definitely left him on on the weekend.
6:10
He did a couple of really good things and I'm just saying late in the game if you need somebody to spark
6:16
because it was still on the balance right with about 2025 to go, but the shark just couldn't get over.
6:21
Yeah, I must agree with you. I think with the spring box it's different because there's a lot of leaders in that spring box team.
6:29
With this shark team especially with the Urban It's a bit not playing.
6:33
You want your senior players there in that second half. When the pressure comes on,
6:39
when you can feel that pressure, you want your senior leaders to be on the field to keep everything calm, to give directions.
6:46
So for me as well, that was, yeah, I couldn't believe just after half time when I saw it.
6:52
Taking you off, like I said, if Urban was there, maybe still all right.
6:56
But with you out there in there, you want your leaders, you want those guys. I mean, John, you know it.
7:02
You want your top players to stand up and see me in finals and finals.
7:06
And I mean, you see us as spring box captain, you want him to lead from the front for 80 minutes.
7:10
So Victor, you were very, you rate the lense to team very highly.
7:16
You said the other day that you think that beat the all blacks, big call.
7:20
So how do you think they're going to get the balls?
7:24
I don't think they will. I think they've got a chance.
7:28
If Ireland's got a chance, I think this lense to team is just as good as the island team.
7:34
I mean, you lose Bundy, but you get Jordy.
7:38
So I don't think that's such a bad swap.
7:41
You get air here same and that comes off the bench or start in the games.
7:45
So I think there must be big favorites for this game.
7:49
It's going to be a tough thing.
7:52
I think the only thing that the rules can do is, and I said it, that scrumps the physicality.
7:57
I mean, they've beaten lense to four out of six times in the URC.
8:01
So they've got a pretty good record against him and they beat him twice in semi-finals as well.
8:07
But this will be a different team.
8:09
Most of the time when they played them in semi-finals, they were probably playing the Champions Cup final the next week.
8:14
So more of the focus was on the Champions Cup and not on the URC.
8:19
But going to this week, the Bulls can start well if they can be in the game with 20 minutes to go.
8:26
That bogey of them struggling to win the semi-finals and finals, they might feel that pressure.
8:32
For the Bulls to be important to start well, put them under pressure.
8:36
Let them think, are we choking again? Is that happening again?
8:39
What do we need to do?
8:41
There will be a lot of pressure on this lense of teams.
8:44
But I mean, it's an experienced team, so they will be really focused for this week.
8:49
In some way, I haven't seen anything in the URC because they will always focus on the Champions Cup.
8:54
So they will be very focused and I think they want to win a trophy and it's going to be a tough game for the Bulls.
9:00
Well, that's super rugby.
9:02
So your Blues team's actually still in it, which is a surprise to me.
9:05
What were you surprised, Ricardo?
9:08
I'm surprised to be finding it.
9:10
I'm surprised to me. I'm saying to many other people.
9:12
These are the defending champs, mate.
9:14
And lately, so the Bulls for many years in those clutch games would lose.
9:21
And even to the Chiefs.
9:23
But just in the last three years in those clutch games, the Chiefs is actually being struggling.
9:28
A little bit like what Victor said about lense.
9:32
And the Bulls just know how to win.
9:35
Now they've had an ugly season, but they've got no pressure on them.
9:39
Ugly season, lots of injuries, things haven't gone their way.
9:43
Oppositions work them out, so really physical against them.
9:47
But in the clutch game on the weekend, which wasn't really a clutch game.
9:51
And this is an interesting point.
9:54
That sort of top six where you have a Premier ship winner and they get,
10:00
well, in rugby league, they get a week off.
10:03
And hours you get to play, but you get two lives, you know?
10:06
Is that 3 or 4% where you know that if you lose, it doesn't really matter?
10:12
I don't know.
10:14
It's a little bit up in the air where the psychologically the Chiefs go,
10:18
well, it doesn't really matter because we've got another life.
10:21
So for me, I think the Bulls, you just wouldn't want to play them.
10:25
Have they had a good season?
10:27
I mean, they've made the top six and now they've got through the first round.
10:31
So that's a great season if you're talking about the Blues, right?
10:34
So for me, you wouldn't want to play them.
10:37
Got to go down to Christchurch this week, it's a big week.
10:40
But hey, no pressure on the Blues, all the pressure on the Crusaders.
10:44
So I'm happy about that.
10:46
Just from my side, just looking from the outside, I'm with John.
10:51
I think the Blues can be very dangerous in semi-finals finals.
10:55
Because they probably, the team are the most physicality.
10:58
I mean, if that fought back, it's up.
11:00
I mean, they've got some huge carriers in their team.
11:03
It can be difficult to stop.
11:05
And I think the Chiefs and the Crusaders would have been very happy
11:09
if the Blues weren't in it anymore.
11:11
So I think the Chiefs slipped up there and the Blues are definitely a big danger in that competition.
11:17
One thing you know about the Blues and the Crusaders is that they're both going to be putting their best teams out on the field.
11:22
Not so sure about the French team that's coming down in New Zealand in a few weeks.
11:27
There's been lots of talk about who's going to be in that team and who's going to be rested.
11:32
I think they're going to have to bring five players from the final, but they can't play in the first test.
11:37
So what do you think about the idea of an international team sending a weakened squad to an international tour?
11:44
Well, the French have never really given a shit.
11:48
They do this every second year, unless it's a World Cup year and they want to bring guys.
11:55
So they're talking about player welfare.
12:01
And when you think about the French competition, they play a lot of rugby.
12:06
World rugby has been trying to get the French to change their club competition to fit in with the rest of the world.
12:12
And every year, the French say, no.
12:15
I mean, I thought that Ben Azee was going to get chairman of World Rugby.
12:21
For a few reasons.
12:23
French rugby is in great shape.
12:25
The television rights have gone up.
12:27
The player numbers are up.
12:30
They're really thriving in France, right?
12:32
But then it went to our Australian friend.
12:36
So unless you're going to do something about it, like World Rugby, then you just got to cop it.
12:43
Because they're saying, play welfare, our players have played 48 games or whatever.
12:48
And we don't really give a shit about these test matches in July.
12:53
So just stop.
12:54
So do something about it, World Rugby, if you're worried about it.
12:57
Otherwise, if I'm the French coach, I'm going, this is perfect.
13:00
I co-down to New Zealand. I got nothing to lose.
13:02
I can play my second 15 and see how many of them are going to be good enough for the next World Cup.
13:08
Yeah, it's a pity.
13:09
I think everyone would have loved to see top French team against New Zealand.
13:15
It's number two and three in the world, probably at the moment.
13:18
Playing against each other.
13:20
And we know.
13:21
I think the French is probably the team to beat in the next World Cup.
13:25
They had a very young squad, previous World Cup.
13:29
And I would love to see a top French team coach in New Zealand
13:33
and to see what they can do away from home.
13:35
We know they're not the best travelers.
13:38
But it would have been great.
13:39
And it's a pity that there's not, I don't know, stronger control from the IRB
13:46
that can almost force them to see in a stronger side.
13:49
And that's something that Russia is changing in South Africa.
13:53
I remember on the take, why there was end of year two, especially the year
13:57
just before the World Cup, we did race about five of our senior players
14:02
before 2007.
14:04
Russia is doing it the other way around.
14:07
And it helped, because it's almost like you guys in New Zealand
14:10
with central contract.
14:12
The guys are centrally contracted.
14:14
And then, I mean, our top players get raced in the domestic competition.
14:21
But when we get to the string of games, you want these base squad?
14:26
Obviously, there will be rotation in those games, because you want to grow your squad.
14:30
But all the base cards is available.
14:32
And that's what you want to see.
14:33
International rugby is still the most important, I think, in our games.
14:39
So we want to see the base against them.
14:41
Not for the French football.
14:42
Not for the French football.
14:43
Again, because they get paid from the clubs.
14:47
I mean, they get paid millions by clubs.
14:49
I've played for two law.
14:51
They don't give a damn about international rugby.
14:53
It's just about the team, because those owners pay for the players.
14:57
And that's why I think the French league can't control them.
15:00
They just do whatever they want.
15:02
And they want, because they're paying for those players,
15:05
they want every on-sake and get out of those players.
15:09
So, Jake, you're saying World Rugby needs to take action.
15:13
You know, World Rugby needs to show some strength and say,
15:15
the international game is a pinnacle of our game.
15:18
If you're going to be part of World Rugby, you put your best team out there.
15:21
Totally.
15:22
I mean, you can't moan about it if you're running World Rugby
15:26
and you control the laws.
15:27
I think what Victor's saying is really valid.
15:29
The French, they don't give a toss.
15:33
The club owners don't care about international rugby.
15:36
So you need to be really, really careful that you don't get into an English premier ship,
15:40
soccer type situation where, you know, they're getting paid X amount.
15:46
I mean, if you think about it, central contracting,
15:49
if you're a springbok on all black, you're getting the majority of your money
15:53
from a central contract.
15:56
90% of that side are probably getting $250,000 or $300,000 or $400,000 from their club
16:02
and $100,000 from the national site, you know?
16:06
So you're going to go, and this is something we hear all the time, you know, in New Zealand.
16:12
I've got to do this because I've got to look after my family.
16:15
So if you're thinking about contracts, then you go,
16:18
if you're the point, you go, I've had a massive couple of years,
16:21
World Cup backed up by Olympics backed up by,
16:25
well, I don't want to go to New Zealand, get the shit kicked out of me.
16:27
I'd rather stay home and I saw him at Roland Gallo's the other day watching,
16:31
watching Sinner play Alcatraz, like he just wants to go on holiday
16:35
and refresh himself for another big year, which for him is club and six nations.
16:40
The rest is irrelevant.
16:41
And until you change that, I reckon you just say,
16:45
I'll be like, okay, France, just don't tell it.
16:47
Give it to someone else.
16:49
But I think the French also need to have a look,
16:51
why haven't they won a World Cup yet?
16:53
And maybe that's the problem for them.
16:56
They're not prioritizing the national team and the national games that they play.
17:02
I mean, this is a great opportunity.
17:04
And two years' time from now, the World Cup will be in Australia.
17:08
They'll have to fly to the southern hemisphere.
17:10
They'll have to complain this type of conditions against this type of teams.
17:14
And if they want to win the World Cup, that's where you want to play.
17:17
I remember us before 2007, we went up to France in 2005,
17:22
took our base team, got beaten by them.
17:26
But I mean, that was a focus for us.
17:28
We listened, we've experienced this.
17:30
This is what we need to change.
17:32
We're coming back to the stadium.
17:34
We want to win the World Cup in this stadium.
17:36
The trophy is going to stand in the middle of this room in two years' time.
17:40
And I mean, it's start becoming a thing that we could visualize, that we could see.
17:44
So I think they're missing out a little bit as well.
17:46
Yes, they will grow the depth in their squad.
17:50
But you don't want 15 new guys.
17:53
You don't thought depth like that.
17:55
You want those senior players playing with those youngsters as well,
17:59
teaching them and just leading from the front so that they can see
18:04
how to handle those precious situations.
18:07
You've got a point.
18:08
I think that England won the World Cup.
18:10
England won their only World Cup.
18:12
They brought their full side down to New Zealand a year before.
18:15
They beat us in Wellington.
18:17
You need to know how to win those games.
18:19
I mean, I think the World Cup final or the semi-finals when France got taken out.
18:24
You know, I think the mistake was actually a couple of changes.
18:28
They should have changed upon.
18:30
I mean, you'd come back off an injury and he was just gassed with 20 to go.
18:34
It was good.
18:35
They left them on and I thought it was the difference in the end.
18:38
But anyway, we digress for Carter.
18:40
What about from a player's perspective?
18:42
Like the international games, the pinnacle to a player.
18:45
But if you're sort of being told by your union, look,
18:48
I want you to stay online the beach.
18:50
You know, here's your million dollars from your club.
18:52
Just take it easy.
18:53
Would you rather take the money and line the beach or do you want to test yourself
18:57
against your all blacks on the tour of New Zealand?
18:59
I think you're dreaming, Ricardo.
19:01
I think you're dreaming if you think the modern rugby player.
19:05
I think it's like we used to think.
19:07
You know, I love Mark Talia.
19:09
I am so sad he's leaving New Zealand rugby in his prime.
19:14
Right?
19:15
So he's giving up test rugby.
19:17
So look after his family and I get it.
19:19
I don't blame him, I think.
19:21
I get it.
19:22
But I would love for someone I came to stay a bit longer.
19:26
If you're getting paid $500,000 from Toulouse and $100,000,
19:31
and I'm talking about you now, Ricardo, $100,000 from the French national side,
19:36
you have to look at where your friend is being but you have to.
19:43
So it's the rules and the emphasis and how things are run.
19:48
Of course, New Zealand love test rugby and love the all blacks.
19:53
But not all of them stay that long.
19:55
I mean, we lost Wichim Wonga, we lost Mark Talia now,
19:58
we lost some of our biggest players halfway through their career
20:02
because they go, I'm going to look after my family.
20:05
So France, it's easy decision.
20:07
I don't want to go to New Zealand.
20:09
I'm not getting paid enough for it.
20:11
Law on the beach.
20:13
Yeah, I think it's, I think it's probably a bit different
20:15
for other neighbours, for your teams.
20:18
Firstly, I think the players did change.
20:21
I mean, my day after 2007 World Cup went to Toulouse
20:26
and after six months, I wanted to go back to the booth.
20:29
I wanted to go win another super rugby.
20:31
I wanted to go play more tests for South Africa.
20:34
I came back for probably about third,
20:36
what I was paid in Toulouse to come play back in South Africa.
20:39
We didn't have the opportunity to play there
20:41
and to play for your country.
20:43
I think what Rasi has done with the Springbok is
20:47
that anything those players worry about is the Springboks.
20:50
I feel, and that's why I say with the sharks,
20:52
a lot of those stop Springboks,
20:54
they only just want to be good at Springboks season
20:57
and I think that's wrong as well.
20:58
You want your guys to play well for the union
21:01
or the club and play well for the national team,
21:04
but the national team should still be everything for you.
21:08
I mean, in the southern hemisphere as well,
21:10
remember the only way you get those stop contracts in Japan,
21:14
stop contracts in France or in the UK is when you're a top-test player.
21:18
You want to play a lot of test matches.
21:20
You want to perform at the World Cup or at the highest level.
21:24
You want to perform against New Zealand, against Australia.
21:27
That's when you get those big contracts every year as well.
21:31
And I think, again, going back,
21:33
these players need to look after their families.
21:35
It's a short career, but you want them to attend the national level as well
21:39
and you want them to play in the big games.
21:41
I was always upset when I wanted to race me.
21:44
I mean, that in-of-year tour, I got raced at two in-of-year tours.
21:49
I didn't like it because I said,
21:51
rather let me race in the off season or let me race in the week.
21:54
But you want to play those big test matches.
21:56
That's why you play rugby.
21:58
I can't think if a guy liked a point to fit,
22:01
you want to miss out on playing the All Blacks in New Zealand.
22:05
That's the biggest dream for any rugby player.
22:08
But maybe they think they're different these days.
22:11
Well, one team that's going to be full strength on tour is the Lions.
22:15
How do you think they're going to go in Australia?
22:17
So there's a couple of things that really intrigue me about the Lions.
22:21
I think, and I don't know this,
22:24
but they say, you know,
22:26
it's a hard group of guys to bring together.
22:29
I also think there's a time issue.
22:31
So guys aren't finishing, you know, like Victor said.
22:35
I don't know how many in that lengths decide, you know,
22:38
who haven't finished rugby yet.
22:40
They've got to get together.
22:42
So I think if they can gel,
22:44
and I think if they can play a certain type of rugby,
22:47
I think I'll lose the first test and win the series.
22:50
Yeah, I still love the Lions series.
22:53
I think it brings so much excitement to the game.
22:58
It's probably a little bit like playing for the barbarians,
23:01
where you just bring guys together.
23:03
It always help if you've got like a cool group.
23:06
I think Andy Ferrell's idea was to have Ireland as a cool.
23:11
It was probably a year ago thinking,
23:13
you'll probably be about 10 of the Irish guys in the team.
23:17
And then you'll have maybe three Englishmen, two Scottish guys,
23:21
and then maybe one Welsh guy.
23:23
But I think it's changed over the last year,
23:26
with Ireland struggling a little bit.
23:28
England becoming stronger.
23:30
Now he's got an English captain.
23:32
Scotland doing really well as well.
23:35
So I think the mix are going to be a bit different.
23:38
And yeah, what I've heard from some of the coaches,
23:43
they say it's almost like a barbarian.
23:45
Can't overcoach them.
23:46
You have to let them go, let them gel.
23:49
It's probably always difficult at first test match.
23:52
It's basically like this year.
23:54
I think there's 13 guys in the teams in the British and Irish teams.
23:59
So they will miss out on that Argentina game, I think.
24:03
And I'm only going over a bit later.
24:05
So yeah, the first test is definitely going to be difficult.
24:09
And I think Australia is on the up.
24:11
A year ago as well, we would have said it's going to be a white watch.
24:14
All of a sudden, there's something happening in Australia and rugby.
24:19
Joe Schmidt is doing a fantastic job.
24:22
He knows a lot of those Irish players as well.
24:25
I think I mean he knows Andy Farrow very well.
24:29
So I think it's going to be a very competitive series.
24:32
I like it.
24:33
It's really interesting hearing you two guys talk about the lines.
24:35
But why don't we get someone that actually knows something about them?
24:38
Andrew Trimble, 70 tests for Ireland's joining us just on the way home from school drop off.
24:44
Andrew, we're just talking about how we think the lines will go.
24:48
The gentleman with us pretty much saying that you're going to lose the first test, but win the next two.
24:55
Yeah.
24:56
So it's interesting you're bringing on someone who knows a little bit more about the lines.
24:58
Bring on someone who was available for Alliance, but went on as many.
25:03
I got selected as many times as you lots did.
25:06
So unfortunately, I might have a slightly different perspective, but not dramatically different.
25:12
Yeah, I think I suppose as it gets closer, everybody kind of maybe starts to get a little bit more of a realization that maybe Australia
25:21
are going to be a little bit more competitive than we all thought a while back.
25:25
Really, the main factor for me is Schmidt.
25:28
I just think Schmidt, this has been something he's been working up to, built an up to he's had.
25:32
He's going to have a couple of tricks up his sleeve and find a way to, there'll be something he'll be leaning on.
25:37
There'll be some aspect of Stanley Farrell's attack or defense where he'll be able to find a nation, find a way to kind of capitalize or get a bit of an advantage there.
25:47
When you say, when you say Joe Smith's tricks, and you do mean like, will he have a technical or a tactical thing within the game plan that will attack a weakness or change the game completely?
26:07
What do you mean by tricks?
26:08
I don't think it changed the game completely.
26:10
I don't think there'll be something that runs through the entirety of his piece play, but I think there's often he has ways of offset piece launch plays where he's able to be two or three phases.
26:23
Think two or three phases in advance, get a defense to behave a certain way that is consistent with how they've been behaving.
26:31
I slated a defender and put someone through it.
26:34
My experience of Joe Smith is reasonably kind of 360 in that we, we hated the plan against Lancer when he was with Lancer because if Lancer get the ball, you don't get the ball back off them.
26:46
They're breakdown so good, they're deception so good, their skill sets so good.
26:50
I'm not a vintage Lancer team back then.
26:53
And then when he came to Ireland, I started kind of buying into, okay, well, and it's, it's, I don't mean this in a kind of limited kind of disrespectful way, but if you did what you were told to do, if you behaved and executed the game on that he had out, you were in a really good place because he understood the game so well and he understood the opposition so well.
27:13
And there's an element of that here as well where when we played against Lancer, I remember one of our guys for, for Ulster kind of identified this, he said, listen, if someone's holding onto you, if someone's cleaning deep, if someone's behaving in a way that just seems a little bit suspicious, they're doing something they're trying to create some space somewhere.
27:33
And that was always the way we tried to, and then then you get into this space where you start overthinking and overreacting and, but it's all a joke, because he's, he's capable of creating something and creating space.
27:45
And the one thing we talked about was the lense, the guys only joining the group a bit later, I think it's 12 or 13 guys will let ever impact on the squad, what do you think those guys know, Ferrell so well, they'll just fitting when they get there.
28:01
Well, it will have an impact definitely, but if there's going to be a group of players that can manage to make up time, it's going to be the lense for players, they know exactly the way Andy Farrell behaves, they know what's expected of them, but it's still not perfect, it's still not ideal to have that prep time and be fully prepared and ready for a lion's tester is going to be really important.
28:23
I think they can make up the ground, but it's still not ideal.
28:26
As from southern hemisphere, although, um, Victor's got a foot in both camps now, he used to be southern hemisphere, but now that he did North, South Africa, so.
28:36
He's turned to the dark side mate, you guys.
28:41
If you're drinking bites of Guinness shortly instead of his Roman coat, hey, uh, we hear a lot in the southern hemisphere about how hard it is for a lion's coach to bring the nations together, but we don't really understand what that means because for us as rugby players, you know, I've done a couple of things with, with South Africans and bar bearings and stuff and we just got on like a house on fire.
29:06
But every lion's team, they talk about this different nations, you know, not being able to get along together and you got to bring them together, is that a, is that a factor? Is that just bullshit?
29:17
I would imagine there's an element of truth to that.
29:20
And just I suppose you're trying to blend for four nationalities, four different hours of play, four teams that have been coached, um, four different ways and then together and trying, you know, come up with something.
29:33
It's a miracle that are actually able to do it. It's a miracle. The lines is so special, but it it undeniably is. The last line's term was a lot less special.
29:42
Yeah, a lot less memorable, but to the African tourists have certainly not been less memorable in the past, incredible, incredible lion's tours Australia, maybe slightly to a lesser extent.
29:55
But yeah, you hear always hear stories about guys, you know, just a fear for I've already in the six nations and guys heating specific individuals just having that personal library as well.
30:07
And then walking in, I mean, you always hear about the one of the famous ones is Mike Phillips and runner Nogara, like there, there was zero relationship there.
30:17
And anyway, part of it really didn't like each other at all. There are two big personalities, two, two great lads as well, but they ended up rooming together and that up being best meets.
30:29
And I think that relationship might have been a little bit terrible. It might have been just as linear as we used to be hit each other. Now we're best meets. I think they started hitting each other and then became best meets again.
30:39
So, and then Johnny sex and on that one file was another one huge rivalry. You know, the two of them are very, very like minded. They come across like the sea and personality, but one in green and one in white.
30:52
And those two were best friends with the end of it. And it was kind of like Andy Files adopted son and his real son.
31:00
At the end of the year, the World Cup rankings are going to be the settings are going to be decided based on we ranked in the world.
31:06
So who's going to be the best team of the world at the end of November?
31:10
I think that's a bloody hard one. One of the rankings right now.
31:14
I think it's Africa, France, New Zealand, Ireland, England.
31:19
So tell me who it's going to be at the end of November. Don't tell me who it's going to be now.
31:24
So, I think to be honest, again, the French are shooting themselves in the foot.
31:32
Because where you are in the pools, where you playing is definitely going to make it easier or harder at the World Cup.
31:41
And previous years I felt I did this draw too early. You would actually have it maybe only the year before the World Cup.
31:48
But to be honest, I think New Zealand got an easier route this year.
31:55
I won't be surprised if New Zealand is first. I can't believe I'm saying this.
32:01
So Africa got a tough year. I mean, we have to play New Zealand away from our twice playing Ireland, the way French, the way Inofia do it.
32:09
So it's a very difficult year for us.
32:12
I can't believe you're saying that. I cannot believe you're saying it as well.
32:16
I cannot believe you're saying it.
32:19
Well, four old set effort. I should cry now that you've got a hard year.
32:23
I feel so sorry for you mate.
32:26
So I say New Zealand one, but South Africa will be two.
32:30
And yeah, how many days are the French playing in all blacks? Two or three?
32:37
Three. I still think probably England might sneak up the, no, the French will be third.
32:43
England fourth and probably Ireland fifth.
32:46
Yeah, I'm different. I don't agree. I think there's a couple of things in play.
32:50
I think four New Zealand, we have the current World Champions, which is South Africa.
32:57
I thought we got close to working them out the way this South Africa play, the Bomb Squad, you know, Russian innovation.
33:06
I think we got close last year, but we didn't get the cookies.
33:10
Especially in South Africa, I thought we should have won both those tests, but the experience and the greatness of that side got through.
33:19
So for me, I think New Zealand, if we want to win the next World Cup, we've got to have a really dominant season.
33:24
We've got to bring some new stuff to the table.
33:27
And I think we have to work out how we're going to be South Africa on their day.
33:32
So I think, I think Ireland need to find a sexton that will completely, so the interesting thing about this final,
33:44
I'll just digress a wee bit on the weekend, Victor, you know, lense during the Bulls.
33:49
I was in Ireland, both those November tests, we won last November, the November before when we lost.
33:58
We couldn't get the ball off Ireland, right?
34:01
So, and that was very much sexton, you know, he would run it like an orchestra leader, and you couldn't get the ball off him, we've got really frustrating.
34:10
So I've lense they can do that against the Bulls, but if the Bulls can get dominant early and get some position, it's a different game.
34:17
So for me, New Zealand, actually your question, New Zealand will be one, Ireland will be two, and South Africa will be three,
34:26
in France will be four, because France don't really care about the internationals, the only care about World Cups and six nations.
34:35
Okay, that's interesting, so you've got the World Champions ranked clear at the end of the year.
34:39
Because I just think it's a little bit like the Bulls last year, you win something, and you've got to remember that we're all chasing South Africa now,
34:48
and New Zealand used to be the team that others would chase, but we're chasing South Africa now, right?
34:53
As hard as this is to say, South Africa are leading the World Rugby in innovation, in World Cup title, so we're chasing them.
35:02
So at some stage, you've got to go and beat the best team in the world, and so everyone's coming for South Africa, and I'm sure Russia's aware of this.
35:12
So for me, Victor's right, not that I'm losing any sleep, not that I really give a shit that South Africa's got a hard year, I'm actually happy, but not only they've got a hard year, everyone's coming for them.
35:23
They are now the level that everyone's got to get to, right?
35:29
So for us, as New Zealanders, we used to go to South Africa quite a bit, but when we need to now go to South Africa, or we need to win this series in New Zealand and the championship,
35:38
to make a point, it's not going to be good enough for us to walk off and lose to South Africa anymore.
35:45
If we could just go be a star rather than trying to think of who's going to beat who, and you know, a second string French team and all that, if we try and just go right who are likely to be the top three best teams in the world,
35:57
we're probably going France, New Zealand, and it doesn't feel like Ireland are really on that trajectory at the minute to be in the same conversation with those two.
36:14
I feel like England are probably going to kick on. England have been a bit of a sleep in John for a number of years now, maybe they'll kick on South Africa, obviously there.
36:23
So it's probably looking France, New Zealand, South Africa, and if Ireland and England do something special, they might get into that group.
36:32
I might actually change my prediction here now that I'm thinking about it because we only playing twice in New Zealand.
36:41
And so if we win one day, I think there's a chance that South Africa will beat New Zealand at the Holy Grail in Auckland.
36:50
I think they're going all out for that game. So if they beat them at that game, they'll still be number one.
36:56
They don't get them right. They might be number two at the end of year.
37:00
Agreed a discreet. Everyone's coming at you, Victor. Everyone's coming, mate. All of us.
37:05
They've been coming for four years.
37:07
Yeah, but to be fair in between, lost a couple, changed some players, thought about the next World Cup.
37:14
But now, two in a row, mate, the world's coming for you. We're coming to get you.
37:22
We're ready for it, so it's good.
37:26
Before we go, I just a couple of things I want to clarify. Andrew, a lot of you to explain your shirt.
37:32
I just wanted to take a little bit of heat off JK. I know he's got a hard time for the shade.
37:37
So I thought I would stick on the 1980s, ask, please, just to deflect JK. I've got your back.
37:44
Andrew, is there an island? You look like a surf of you. Just come off the surfboard.
37:51
There is a bit of surf. I grew up in Port Roche, so there's a bit of surf up there.
37:58
But, you know, I just, I just dress like one, but I've got no, I've got no scaler ability when I forget I dare.
38:06
Rick, you'll ask why the Ava asked a fashion Christian to go the way.
38:11
Sure. Andrew, are you supporting the Bulls or Links to this weekend? Bulls.
38:16
Yes, also I can't support Links to 100%.
38:20
Anybody but Lancet.
38:23
Fantastic. If you can change one rule in rugby, just one rule or one rule, what would that be?
38:30
I'll ask you a question back about this. Before you talk about rules, I always look at the rules one thing.
38:37
Would the game have been different if the rule had have been adequate?
38:42
So my rule change, so when you think about the rule change, I think about a couple of things.
38:48
And this is really, it really annoys me because let's not talk about rules and mistake them for interpretation.
38:59
Right? So I've got a little bit of a beauty saying that JK always wants to change rules.
39:04
I don't actually want to change the rules that much. I want to enforce the rule.
39:08
Or I want to speed up the game through 30 seconds for a scrum, 30 seconds for a line out.
39:14
You know, it was great to see in that Bulls game that the ref actually penalised the heart back
39:19
because he was pissing around at the base of the rack. Perfect.
39:23
So the rule I would change, Ricardo, because, and this is a question for you, Victor.
39:28
If there wasn't a line dropout, when the Bulls were down to 30 men,
39:33
the sharks had to do, they attacked, attacked, attacked, got held up over the line.
39:38
And they got, if they got the dropout, right? They got the dropout instead of the scrum.
39:43
I reckon if they had had the old rules, the scrum, the game would have been different.
39:48
So I think the rule of the line dropout is unfair to the attacking side.
39:53
I think that was one of the worst rule changes, or, I don't know, that they've made to Rackpy.
40:01
I mean, Rackpy is about scoring tries. You get over the trial line.
40:06
Why do you have to let the pressure go? I mean, they were lucky that you didn't score the trial.
40:11
At some stage, I thought, maybe just get the ball over the line and you should get the five or seven points
40:16
because we want to see tries.
40:18
So I think that's a great rule to change back to just the old rule that I like it always was.
40:24
But you guys know me. I hate red cards.
40:27
And I hate this, hate to hate. It's the worst rule I've ever seen.
40:31
And I think for any red card, there needs to be intent.
40:36
If there is not intent and if it's an accident, it can't be a red card.
40:40
And I think it's killing our game. Even the yellow cards, I think there's too many yellow cards,
40:45
you say, rather give a penalty try. If you think they're going to score.
40:49
Give the penalty try and explain 15 on 15.
40:52
But all these cards, I mean, we almost never see a game where it's not a card.
40:57
There's not a situation where it's 15 on 14 or 15 on 13.
41:02
So I want everyone on the field. Let's penalize them harder after the game.
41:07
But I mean, let's keep people on the field.
41:10
There's another rule I'd like to bring in.
41:13
So I agree with Victor. I think that putting guys on report, sanctioning them bigger afterwards.
41:20
I think what we would perceive as a red card now should be yellow.
41:24
And a yellow should be put on report. So I totally agree with Victor.
41:27
Because at the end of the day, the fan is paying good money to watch 15 against 15.
41:33
And that is the core values of our game.
41:35
But the other thing I would do is I would create a three point penalty
41:41
for the third infringement for the defending team.
41:46
So what we're seeing now, and then the players would self-control.
41:52
So you imagine you're on two penalties.
41:54
You know that if you give away your third penalty in the 22,
41:57
it's an automatic three points and play on.
42:00
So the scoreboard just ticks over.
42:03
That means that the players, all of a sudden after two penalties,
42:07
will be way more diligent, which will open the game up.
42:10
There'll be less guys trying to slow the ball down and sort of semi-treet.
42:14
I mean, we are the biggest cheaters.
42:16
And Victor, you are the biggest cheater ever.
42:19
I wasn't in the scrum because I didn't have to cheat.
42:22
Richie McCourer was the biggest cheater ever.
42:25
But we didn't call it cheating.
42:27
We just pushed the referee to the limit. You know what I mean?
42:30
So now, if we bring in after two or three penalties, it's in the 22.
42:36
It's three points to the opposition, but you carry on.
42:40
I mean, that can work because that's almost like I say,
42:44
be quicker with a penalty try.
42:46
If you think, you know, you've done this three times,
42:49
these guys are on the line for ten minutes now.
42:51
If you didn't do it, it would have been a try.
42:53
Give the try.
42:54
I like it. Give the three points and play on.
42:56
So it can be a ten point game.
42:58
But a lot of this time, I mean, if you're in your 22 defending for more than five minutes,
43:03
I can promise you there's going to be two or three penalties.
43:06
That's just how the game is.
43:07
And that's why so many guys are on going for the three points anymore.
43:10
They go to the corner.
43:12
So it's either in the mall or in the pick and go, someone is off side.
43:15
These days you can't have your hand on the ground, pass the back feet.
43:18
I mean, there's so many chances of giving away penalties.
43:22
So if you keep that pressure, you keep to the 22.
43:25
The chances of giving three penalties away and getting a yellow card is almost 80% these days.
43:31
So yeah, it's difficult.
43:33
I don't think the guys want to force it.
43:35
But if you're on your line, you defend for your life and you will make mistakes because of the pressure.
43:39
So yeah, that idea can actually work.
43:42
Okay.
43:43
I think the dark loss is just bringing up the best in you today.
43:48
I'll tell you what.
43:50
Well, I'm getting, you know, I like to change up my style.
43:54
It's just.
43:55
And change again.
43:58
And change again.
43:59
But, but the trouble is with, with me, Ricardo is like, because we are a multinational politically run organisation,
44:10
it takes us five years to make any change.
44:13
We need to change something about how quickly we change.
44:16
Because then they go back on the ever meeting and then Ireland doesn't want this.
44:19
And so the African doesn't want this and New Zealand doesn't want that.
44:22
So they go away again.
44:24
But we need to just create a separate committee that can make these rule changes fast, troll them fast, fail fast, and move on.
44:33
Like, that rule has not worked.
44:35
But I encourage them to keep saying, okay, we're trying to do this.
44:39
But if it doesn't work, say, right, it's not working people, we don't like it, it's out.
44:43
And someone takes responsibility for that.
44:45
Do you know who's in charge of the rules?
44:47
Does anyone know who's in charge of the rules of the IRB?
44:50
No, we don't.
44:53
I know that if you said like last year before the World Cup, they asked me to come in with a line-up malls and whatever.
45:01
But again, the moment, and it's a difficult thing, as I go in there,
45:06
look, I want the mall to be able to go.
45:09
So I'll always focus on the offensive side and trying to get the mall to be a weapon.
45:14
I think if it's a New Zealand line-up guy that's going to help them, he's got his own ideas about it.
45:22
And he probably just want the mall to be a starting point where he can pull people in and then play of it, same with his scrum.
45:28
So it's always so difficult because we've got all these different countries that want to play different
45:35
and they want to almost enforce the way they want the laws to be interpreted to be refereed.
45:42
And I think that's where Jake, it should come back to what's the law.
45:46
Not the interpretation, what's the law?
45:48
Let's just keep to that.
45:51
But isn't that part of our problem?
45:53
Part of our problem is we're all going to defend our corner, you know, and I get that.
45:58
But surely one of the things that will rugby needs to do moving forward is actually change those things.
46:07
Right, and say we're going to have a group of people who are measured, who understand, who actually go, yeah.
46:14
Right, we are going to do this for the better of the game, laws, interpretations, and just move fast.
46:23
Because if we get all those people in the room, of course we're going to defend it.
46:26
Which, what happens in the end?
46:28
When you're defending your situation, you get procrastination, you don't get decisions, right?
46:33
Because we can't come to an agreement.
46:36
There is a sad, it's been a sad few days here in New Zealand, we've lost a great all black.
46:41
And I thought we'd finished by, Jake, if you could just explain how special Stu Wilson was to New Zealand and to all of us.
46:50
Oh, just an amazing character of a man.
46:53
First and last ever, Captain who was on the wing, like this.
46:58
So he was an all black captain and just an amazing man.
47:03
Like he set the standard for me, so I took over from Stu Wilson.
47:08
So from a rugby point of view, he handed me the jersey and he had definitely left it in a better place.
47:14
He was top tri-scorer with 18, I think.
47:19
And so he'd set the standard.
47:21
I loved the way he played, he had beautiful angles.
47:24
But he was also a comedian, like had a great attitude to life.
47:29
Always laughing, always joking.
47:33
And died too young, you know, he was 70.
47:35
He did some beautiful things.
47:37
And especially in the last few years, he was a volunteer orderly.
47:43
In the hospital to look after elder people and stuff like that.
47:47
But just a great man, great, great player.
47:50
Ebony and Ivory, him and, him and Bernie Fraser.
47:54
You know, we're a couple of wings for Wellington and for the all black two.
47:57
Just love life and, you know, set the standard for us young guys when we're coming through.
48:02
So he said he missed me, wished them peace and thought to go out and call his family.
48:06
Perfect, we'll wrap up there.
48:08
Okay, I'm also going to get a vodka and red bull to get my focus.
48:12
Nice. Don't lose, mate. Don't lose.
48:14
All right, all right.