Latest / Despite Impossible / Season 5 Episode 2: Daniel Schaffa

Transcript

Season 5 Episode 2: Daniel Schaffa · Despite Impossible

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Today's guest is Daniel Schaffa.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Daniel is funny, easy to talk to, studious, and someone who is known for being observant of others.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Daniel is also a professor of law at the University of Richmond School of Law, where he studies tax and law and economics.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: He is one of a handful of humans with five degrees from the University of Michigan.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Go blue.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: His tax research focuses on how the tax system can be designed to achieve socially desirable goals.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is Daniel's story.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: People who know you best will describe you as.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: This one was tough.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to ask my wife.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, funny, easy to talk to, studious, and there was some other characteristic, something like attuned to or observant of people, something like that.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not what I would have come up with for myself, but I trust her judgment more than I do mine on that question.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: What's something you always wish you could do for just a little longer?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like so I have three little kids.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Every time I pick up a book or try to play a game of chess, like immediately one of them appears and just needs something.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the two things that that came to mind.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Describe a moment when you really felt the most like the leader you always dreamt you would be.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I like the idea of sort of coming up with new ideas.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: So when I come up with a with, you know, this most in research, for example, when I come up with something that's exciting and I sort of think I'm seeing things in a new way.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um I like that a lot.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if I'm solving problems behind the scenes, that always feels like a good leadership moment.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Or when I'm able to help people.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I have students who are interested in working in a particular area, and I happen to know someone in that area, and I can sort of get them connected, that always feels feels really good.
• 2:22
  unknown: Yeah.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: When was the last time you danced so hard your feet were sore?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I officiated my brother-in-law's wedding.
• 2:32
  unknown: Yay.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it was super fun.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: I was honored that they they asked me.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I had done it before, but this was a much bigger deal.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: This was, I think, over a hundred people, a bigger venue.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was sort of nervous beforehand.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then afterwards, I just sort of got to let loose and dance.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm pretty sure my feet hurt.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was also wearing pretty bad shoes.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that might have been part of the reason my feet were.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: What's an important insight you come back to repeatedly across situations in both your work and personal life that guides your approach to change?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say something that I try to remind myself of is to stay away from moral judgments, uh, which can be really, really hard when somebody does something that I don't like.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I really try to tell myself to resist the urge to think that they're evil or bad, and instead think that they might have different incentives or they might be scared.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it is such a helpful thing to do if you can sort of avoid those judgments.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because uh one, you don't get stuck in these sort of loops of blame.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then two, it's easier to find a solution.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone is upset about something uh or you know, does something and because they have different incentives, you can try to change their incentives, or if they're scared, you can try to sort of so it that's something that I keep on coming back to, just trying to stay away from moral judgments uh where I can.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a bad day, which one song or artist on your playlist lightens you up immediately?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: This one was hard because it's it's just so high variance.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh on a on a sort of warm day in the car, Hotel California by the Eagles with the windows down.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: When I'm at the gym and a and a Dr.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Dre or Britney Spears song comes up, like for some reason, like those like early poppy beats that I heard in childhood, like uh, and then when I when I just want to be transported somewhere else, uh Swan Lake, you know, so it's just just very high variance.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I guess that makes it easy, right?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of music that can that can do it for me.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: What's something you wish you knew about growth over time in the early days of your journey?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so hard hard work is a habit.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think uh I think I had this idea when I was younger that there were people that were, you know, just got things and got things done, and or they were naturally good at hard working, and you realize that you can actually build that yourself, and you do it little by little, and you get better at it, and that builds confidence, and you sort of go from there.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, hard work is a is a habit.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Start small and keep improving.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: What's one thing people wrongly assume about you?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I uh I uh I have a JD and I have a PhD in economics.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: So people think I can give them legal or financial advice.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they legal advice, absolutely not.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh financial advice, you know, at some high level, you know, buy ETFs or something.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: I could I could say something like that.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but people think I know what stocks to pick or what to do in a certain legal situation, and I'm I'm useless to them.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: What do you enjoy doing that you don't get to do often?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh riding on a boat.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, going on a boat, uh, even sort of slow, a hot day, breeze, cool drink.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was what popped popped into mind for that question.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's just a really fun thing that I only get to do every couple years.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I think every time I do it, I really, really enjoy it.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Who haven't you seen perform live in concert that you've been planning to see and haven't yet?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: This one was tough.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so Queen, I guess now with Adam Lambert, that would be fun.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Taylor Swift, I feel like would be fun.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: It would be.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Have you done it?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I made my daughter pay for her ticket.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: I said I would pay for mine.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: She paid for hers.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like that would be super.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, she just puts on such a such a performance.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then there's also like the local jazz ensemble.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: There were like a lot of like things that that that popped in mind.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think Queen and Adam Lambert is probably top of the list.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: What's one thing that inspires hope in you?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when I see a a child do something kind.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so uh my middle daughter is just really good at sharing.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: And when she just, you know, spontaneously shares and especially shares something that you know is precious to her.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and my older daughter, she has this, you know, whenever someone gets hurt, she has this like caring, sympathetic sort of uh, and when I when I see that, then I I feel like there's there's hope for the future.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you could share advice with students graduating from university, what might it be?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I would tell them that life is for exploration and just just use it.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Try things, learn about yourself, learn about the world.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think I used to treat life too much like an optimization problem.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like either in terms of like career path or fitness or whatever, and I I'm not saying set all that stuff completely aside, but I I wish I had treated life more like an adventure.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that would have uh and I think I maybe I still too much uh is an optim optimization problem, but I think uh life really is an adventure.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: So take advantage of it and explore and and learn.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: What's something that still makes you nervous, even though you've done it many times?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Asking for help.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh asking for help.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: I worry that people will either see me as incapable, uh, or I worry that people will think I'm not sort of respecting, you know, their their time, that I'm sort of demanding, or not demanding, asking things of them.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh neither of those things are most of the time, neither of those things are true, right?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's not you know, asking for help.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think people sort of look down on that.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think many people are are sort of very willing.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, asking for help, it uh it it yeah, that still makes me nervous.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us about your impossible.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, this one was a hard one.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: I did not know how to answer this question.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: I struggled with it.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell you, the first at first I was thinking um something that I thought uh that I couldn't do, but then then I did.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that was my my first impulse when I was thinking about how to answer the question.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought about it some more, and I thought um I came to a different answer, which is something that I sort of thought was possible but wasn't, and accept and accepting that.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, I have I wish I could say I'm an avid listener of your podcast, but uh now you will be.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now I will be exactly, yes, yeah.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I was thinking, you know, like for a while I thought I could sort of do all of these things, uh, like my own home repairs and you know, two hours of working out every day, and lots of reading and watching every Michigan football game, and nine hours of sleep, and 30 minutes, yeah, yeah, go blue, and 30 minutes of one-on-one time with each kid, and lots of time with friends, and going out on day.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I had this huge list of things.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I and when I when I wasn't achieving them all, I I felt bad.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think there's something about accepting the impossible uh that, and that's something I'm still working on, but that felt really, really good.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so recognizing my limits and recognizing the limits of a 24-hour day.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um so, you know, now as opposed to sort of, I mean, I still have the list in the back of my mind, but instead I think about, you know, what do I want to be and what do I want to do right now?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and that, you know, that can change in the future.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I think sort of recognizing that impossible, and maybe that's a completely different answer to your question than you than you were looking for, but that's sort of where where I where I landed.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: What do you look forward to most in the next 12 months?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so I'm gonna go see Mama Mia with my wife and two oldest children.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the little one is a huge ABBA fan, uh, the the middle, the middle child.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so I am super excited to take her.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And they've never seen a live musical before.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so I think they're gonna be really excited.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we're gonna have to plan because she just turned four, so she's gonna be really little, but it's a matinee.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's gonna be great.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really excited about that.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, also excited about fall in Richmond.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's beautiful here in the fall.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: The weather starts to get a little bit crisper.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and if I can manage to sleep in a couple of times over the next 12 months, that would be that would be good too.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so with your first answer, when you were thinking about the thing that you are dreaming about doing, yeah.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: What if that stays unfinished?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: What do you worry about might not be addressed?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so this is weird because I gave you a sort of unusual answer to the first one.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I but I what I think I I worry about just burning out, right?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: So if I keep on trying to do uh, you know, everything all the time and and and sort of being too hard on myself.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, burnout.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's the that's the thing.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: So who's someone else we should be talking to on the podcast?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I would be really interested to hear from a woman named Beth Suitor, S-U-I-T-O-R, I believe.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And she is the head of school at the Richmond, Montessori.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that my both of my my wife just started working there, and my two older kids just started school there.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And she just seems like a fascinating person, lots of experience as an educator, administrator, consultant, and I think she would have some very uh interesting things to say.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Love that.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: What's your next impossible, my friend?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the next impossible.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so um, I'll say it.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be out in the open now.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I would like to write a novel.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think that would be a lot of fun.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I'll be even more specific.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe something in the Pride and Prejudice universe.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, um, yeah, yeah.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um I read I read the book as a kid, and then during the sort of peak pandemic, I rediscovered it, and it was like my like my like comfort story because I could kind of escape.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then it's it's it's it's perfect because it's you want to keep reading it, but it's not so exciting that you can't fall asleep if it's sort of like your bedtime read.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I just read it uh many times, and then I got the audiobook, and I I've probably listened to it dozens of times.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so these characters are like embedded in my head.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to sort of, yeah.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so if I ever have enough time to sit down and and write uh, you know, I don't know, maybe something about Carolyn Bingley or something, I think that would be that would be a lot of fun.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: The wicked version of Pride and Prejudice.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: That is exactly right.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: It is, it is exact that is exactly right.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's because, you know, I this is gonna be a maybe a take that people don't like, but um Elizabeth Bennett, uh, I think she's a great character.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm again, I'm avoiding moral judgments, but sometimes she's a bit of a mean girl.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um she does have that sort of vibe and the fact that she sort of takes takes all this like joy in people's follies, and uh so it it wouldn't it wouldn't sort of make her the antagonist, but it would be sort of a richer narrative uh and and why Carolyn is the way like just like Wicked, why she is the way that she is, and and some sort of backstory with her and Darcy.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if I it would be good.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I would agree.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, yeah.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't quite get it.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: What's the incentive that motivates me?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh boy, I incentive.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so intrinsically motivated.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I'm not really motivated by incentive.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I mean, I'm a perfectionist.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is that an incentive?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh I I do, I think, create and so okay, here's one.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to chocolate cake once a year, so I don't have any dessert all year long, and I am very motivated to have one piece of chocolate cake that my mom makes every year.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's certainly an incentive.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Daniel talked about the idea that hard work is a habit, not something people are born with.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe that to be true.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I certainly learned hard work from both of my parents.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: They worked very hard in their jobs, they worked very hard at home, they are just Midwestern people that share the value of working and doing right by the world, and that was what I grew up around.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know how to do anything other than that.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: I get teased a lot about being a workaholic, and I don't think I have a switch where I could do something different because that's what I was taught to do, and because I am very motivated to change the world, so that switch doesn't come off very much.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think habits are something you create.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I have created work habits my whole life, and those are things that you repeat and develop and hone over time.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I certainly learned some of those from mentors and a lot of them from my parents.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Acts of kindness by children, there's so many.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: My daughter Mackenzie is one of the kindest humans that I know.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I worry about it because her heart is the opposite of the Grinch, is it's two sizes too big.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And as someone who has a heart that might resemble that, I worry about what will happen to her because human beings are not all that kind to people with hearts as big as hers.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there's so many stories, the most recent of which is I just turned 50, and she and my mother gave me a ring.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: It is a ring that I have had a long history of wishing for, and she's heard me wish for it.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And she for four years has been working with my mom to share this ring with me.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and what was so kind about it is her empathy and her listening, and she heard her mama and she wanted to do something really kind for me, and she did.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: And she does that kind of thing all the time, and it does create great hope in me and great worry.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Please be kind to my daughter's heart.