Latest / WoT Spoilers / Into The Thick Of It & That Smouldering City - A Memory of Light ch7&8 - EP598

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Into The Thick Of It & That Smouldering City - A Memory of Light ch7&8 - EP598 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers Podcast.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Do you want to get into the thick of it?
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Into the thick of it?
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Chapter 7, Into the Thick of It.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Elaine stepped out of the pavilion after the meeting and
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: entered a grove of a dozen or so trees. And
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: not just any trees. They were towering, healthy, huge-limbed, beautiful trees,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: hundreds of feet tall, with massive trunks. The way she
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: froze and gaped would have been embarrassing if everyone else
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: hadn't been doing the same. She looked to the side,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: where Gwaine stood, mouth open, as she stared up into
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: the huge trees. The sun still shone above, but the
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: green leaves shaded the area, explaining why the light had
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: dimmed inside the tent. These trees, Perrin said, stepping forward
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: and resting his hand on the thick, ribbed bark. I've
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: seen great trees like this before. Inside a Stedding. Elaine
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: embraced the source. The glow of Syedar was there, a
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: warmth alongside that of the sun. She breathed in the power,
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: and was amused to note that most of the women
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: who could channel had done as she had the moment
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: a Stedding was mentioned. Well, wherever Rand is now, Egwene said,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: folding her arms, he can't just make Stedding appear. She
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: seemed to find the thought comforting. Where did he go?
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Elaine asked. He strolled out there, Perrin said, waving toward
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: the trees, and vanished. Cut it there, but I liked
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: that scene of they all walk out, stare into the
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: trees for a second, and Rand has done an aeol
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: and vanished into the trees.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: How do you think he's vanishing? Do you think he's
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: just walking away? Do you think he's true power teleporting?
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Nah, I think he just walked off into the trees
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: and made sure to get out of their line of
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: sight because he's a showman.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: Chapter icon is the bear tree as well, which is
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: tree two out of three. You've got Blight, Bear, and Leafy. Yeah,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: and we get the sort of Shynar and talking to
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Lord Alchemar. We watch them grow up out of the ground, right? Like,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: did we decide this was tree singing or just Teviren?
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: I don't think we completely decided. I feel like there's
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: a lot of power involved in setting the tent up.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: But when does he, and like the grass maybe, I
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: don't know.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: But.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: This seems like a very powerful singing, given that the
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Ogier could barely do something.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Like one tree, right? So I feel like Rand has
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: to be doing something true power-y-ish. He's got to be
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: having some sort of power boost to this ability on
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: top of just being himself, right?
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Sure. Maybe tree singing works really well when you're one
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: with the land as the dragon reborn.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Or maybe he's just really, really horny. And so, you know.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Lots of.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Stiff ridged wood, you know, bursting up for all to see. So, yeah,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: the group goes out, stares at the trees, and then
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Elaine says, to business, we need maps. And everyone goes, oh,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: we put you in charge?
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's right.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Why did we agree to that?
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Hey, where is Master Nori, by the way?
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: That is a very good question. Where is Master Nori?
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: Is he dead? Did he die in the palace? Did
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: he just kind of get lost under a wall like Matt,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: except not lucky this time?
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Looking him up, I don't see anything about where he
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: ends up. The last Towers of Midnight is really the
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: only time he's mentioned before this.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: He just vanishes? He got lost between the couch cushions?
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what the hell? Hold on. I thought this would
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: be easy to find in the moment.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I did not think that we actually lost Master Nori.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: Did he get lost behind in Camelot? This is the
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: only time his name is mentioned in the book.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: He must have gotten lost in the shuffle. Or you
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: can headcanon like Fuji and choose to believe that he
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: stayed and book kept the damages and was just fine.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: But wow, he got lost in the chaos of losing Camelon.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Because like the last time we talked to him, he
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: was like helping with the band and bringing in the
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: band into Camelon and arriving for Elaine's morning meeting. But
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: that's before Camelon was taken.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: You know, he seems like the kind of person who
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: would go down with the ship, you know, if the
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: palace was burning down and he had the opportunity to
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: like help his clerks get away and be the last
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: one out and end up dying because it was not
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: time for everyone to get out. That seems like what
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: would have happened to him.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: Like, I'm not.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Leaving this palace. And then, you know, a wall collapses.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: That's weird, though, that Elaine asks for him here. Where
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: is he? And then there's never any follow up.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Never any follow up as far as I can tell.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, that's rough. Check on your administrative staff.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to assume he died in the trial.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: That's sad. That's a sad end for Master Nori.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Just completely off screen and unnoticed. Buried under a
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: pile of rubble in the smoking ruins of Camelon. I'm
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: going to choose to believe, though, that he spent his
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: last moments making sure his underlings were getting out because,
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: you know, he's.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: The head clerk.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: So, yeah.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: Elaine.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: looks at Brynn and acknowledges that he's definitely not with her,
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: but he's not against her. And they get together some
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: maps and start talking about stuff. The commanders all gather
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: and we list off the four great captains and realize
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: that we have four massive battlefields to pick. There's a
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: lot of conversation and shuffling to sort out who's going
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: to fight where.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the four on four. And I think there
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: is this moment where it makes sense. And you have
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: the moment where you, the Prince of Kandor is like,
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: don't bother. It's already fallen. My mother fights for revenge,
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: but don't fight to reclaim it. Just block it up.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: We get the warning that, like, something's going on with
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: the Black Tower, so you may be careful about approaching
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: them for help. Perrin sort of gives that warning, although
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: I assume that warning is because he saw the dome?
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: No, it's because his Ashaman can't travel back.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Because he's got the dude with him who's got the kid,
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: and then... Because he knows how dream spikes work and
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: the same problem is happening when dude's trying to go
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: visit his family. He's like, ooh, ooh, I think I
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: know what that is. But he hasn't gone to see
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: the dome yet. We also get some talk about the
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: way gates kind of setting up the context that Perrin
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: will ultimately smash, right? With going into the ways and
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: dealing with stuff. They're talking about can we retake the
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: way gate from the inside? Like how are we going
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: to deal with this? And Perrin offers some insight, which
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: you can clearly see as foreshadowing for he's going to
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: take the fight. into the ways when the time comes.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: And I still consider Fire in the Ways canon, even though,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know the characters who were there can't
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: physically be there, but the events of Perrin being in
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: the ways and doing what he does to me is
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: a canon.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. You just swap out a couple of
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: names in order to make it fit with true canon.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: And it's really easy for me to believe that Perrin
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: found time to go cleanse the ways at some point
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: in all of this. Like that's an easy little modular
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: phenomenon Fixed. Yeah, you just change a couple of the
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: other names. It's fine.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: And I feel like it's foreshadowed here.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Big time. Big time. This is clearly setting that up
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: to be satisfying. So yeah, I'm fine with just having
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: a little post-canon, post-ad hoc canon.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: And so yeah, a big chunk of this scene is saying,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: you know, Algemar will go to the Malkier because he's
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: a borderlander. Brynn is going with Egwene to fight in
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: Kandor with the White Tower.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because he's attached to Swann now. He's not doing
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: the Andoran thing. He's not even going to do it
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: by proxy at all.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: And I don't think he has any hard feelings against Elaine,
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: but his allegiance has changed.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: He's moved on. And there's nothing for him in going
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: back and reopening that. Like, it's not Elaine's fault. It's
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: not Elaine's problem. But he's moved on. So that's two
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: of the captains.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: And then sort of, I don't really know why you've
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: got one going one place and one the other. Bashir
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: to Andor and Aitoralda to... Do you think maybe Aitoralda
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: just doesn't want to fight in another city? Like, he's
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: had enough city, like, street-to-street fighting.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Well, it's because they have four battlefronts and four captains,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: so they have to split up. And Shaogul is one
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: of the ones.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: But I'm wondering why Aitoralda to Shaogul instead of to Andor,
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: and why Bashir to Andor instead of Shaogul. Like, the
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: other two had reasons, right?
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would guess that it probably is a mix
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: of Aitoralda's had enough city fighting for one lifetime, and
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: also Bashir... through Perrin and Fahil, has a degree of
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: allegiance to Andor, or a degree of caring about Andor, right?
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Maybe, yeah.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: Saldea through Fahil. I mean, I'm just saying, and he's
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: been really close with Rand for a long time, and
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Rand cares about Andor.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: And also, yeah, he has had much more success fighting
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: in cities, these books, than Aeteralda has had. So yeah,
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: I think maybe all other things being equal, the trauma
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: of fighting in the city was enough for Aeteralda to
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: be like, I would like the planes, please. I would
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: like the outdoor battle.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: But I can see where Bashir, being close to Rand,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: would want to stay with Rand. And Aitoralda being like,
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: I've got experience fighting in cities, would be good to
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: fight in the city. You know, I could see that
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: being reasonable for them to switch.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't really recall them having a strong opinion
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: about why one does.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: And it is kind of like, Aitoralda's like, I guess
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: I'm in the last one. It's not that important. I just,
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: I was just wondering if there was a better reason than.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: Also, the Aiel decide to stay on the Shale Ghoul side.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: For the most part, yeah.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: So they reinforce that. Yeah, for the most part. There's
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: several contingents of Aiel elsewhere, but the bulk of them
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: decide to also do Shale Ghoul. That one gets double-armed.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: And then Marilor, of course, gets set up as the
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: central camp from which the command will be at. Because
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: Camelon's down, there's no other real place, but they're already...
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: set up. And then that, of course, leads to it
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: being the place of the final, final battle. The final
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: battle of the final battle?
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they can all back up to that, ultimately.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, the Saldaians have been stationed in Andor for
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: a while now, so maybe that's also part of it.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Is that just because of how the last several months
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: have gone, like they're already there. So why move stuff
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: that doesn't need to get moved?
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: Fair enough. I wish there'd been a line like that, though.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: You know, Bashir's like, I'll go. My people are camped
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: there already. Like it would just take like another line
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: to add there.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know why.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Minor complaint. Moving on.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: And then Bryn adds, even though he's not going to
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: be in the Camelon fight, by the way, I've always
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: worried about those woods making it for a really good
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: like assaulting cover thing. And I never thought I would
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: be suggesting using them to that end, but just I'm
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: going to go to Kandor. But just so you know,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: here's the thing I always worried about when I was
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: defending Andor. So take that and put that in your
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: pipe and smoke it.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: And we see the strategy later to get the Trollocs
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: out of Camelon and into the woods.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: It works quite well. They basically do like a Yeah,
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: hit and run Robin Hood, Sherwood Forest kind of thing
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: with the Trollocs.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: I would think this is almost pulled from Game of
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: Thrones where they like put the bombs underneath the church
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: and bomb everybody.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: This is completely different.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: I know, but there's putting things in the basement and
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: lighting them on fire to burn everybody down.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Oh, I guess. Yeah, actually, that move is pretty Game
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: of Thrones-y. Yeah, they set much more fire to the
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: city and then present a tempting force on the outside
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: to draw them. And that's where the real battle happens.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: I kind of like, yeah, skipped over the setting all
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: the basements on fire part. Because I, in my mind,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: it's just like, it's that battle in the forest. Like,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: that's the part that really stands out in my mind.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: But you're right, you're right. There is a little bit
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: of setting all the buildings on fire from below.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Because they use gateways to do that. Because otherwise the
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: troughs would just be entrenched behind walls and they'd be
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: impossible to dig out.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Gateways are pretty cool like that. Open it up, throw
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: a barrel of flaming oil through and then close it again.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Pretty handy.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: Or shoot a cannon through it. You know, there's that too.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: For me, I think the problem with that strategy, this
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: opening and closing and opening and closing multiple gateways, is
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: that we're not taking into account channeler exhaustion. That for
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: most channelers, most of the time, a gateway is one
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: of the more powerful things they can do We're not
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: talking about Ram. We're not talking about the Supergirls, right?
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: But for most of the channelers, opening gateways should exhaust
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: them quickly. And so at some point, it doesn't become
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: economical to use gateways the way they're using them here
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: in battle, right? One gateway for troop movements is different than, oh, yeah,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: we're just going to open and close a ton of
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: gateways for the next couple of hours. Have fun.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if there was like a Turang Rial that made
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: it easier or if Andral's talent was something that popped
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: up with some regularity, then you could have like a
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: class of channelers who specialize in that or something. But yeah, no,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: it's just kind of a huge deal and then it's
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: a non-issue. That's a continuity error across.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: It's something that Sanderson does where he just makes– he says,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: you know what? Gateways are now free. If you've got
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: channelers and they're not strong enough, they can form a
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: circle if they are strong enough. There's just certain things
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: that I think– Especially in these later books where in
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: the early books they are a burden for even the
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: strongest channelers.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: There was some creep. There was some power creep under Jordan.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: It was definitely starting to get a little bit. But yeah,
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Sanderson sped that up.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: And Jordan did it by having really powerful channelers. Having
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: our main characters become these incredibly powerful channelers who can
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: do things nobody else can do. But then all of
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: a sudden all the other channelers seem to gain these abilities. Yeah.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: And there's a little bit of like, okay, everyone gets
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: really talented. You know, the pattern needs them to be good.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: So they become all these really good channelers pop up.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: And so all these talents are popping up. So, you know,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: maybe some excuse there, but that is one problem I
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: have with the last battle is just the overuse of gateways.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: But they're so cool. So the Aeol try to go
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: off and do their own thing. And Elaine brings them
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: back in line being like, no, Rand said that we
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: can't all be going our own way and doing our
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: own thing. You need to, Accept direction in a pyramid
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: shape for once. Which, you know, I guess is true.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: But still. The arrogance of the English queen. You must
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: accept our authority. Respect my authority.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, she had the dragon reborn. Give her the authority.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: It's true. She's not wrong. But still.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Everyone signed a treaty, like.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Literally five minutes ago. Then, yeah, she has this... This
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: interesting experience of noticing that when Brynn and Aitorralda ask
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: questions of the Aiel, it pisses them off. But when
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: she tells them what to do, they back down. It's
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: an interesting... The difference between Western Game of Houses political maneuvering, diplomacy, politeness,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: and the Aiel warrior culture directness. Say what you mean
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: and mean what you say. And then Rorik's just like, oh,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: I have to for not... properly respecting you as the
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: assigned war leader she's like yes you do now obey
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: and we'll say no more of it it.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Does feel a little bit like oh just tell these
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: savages what to do and they won't argue with you that.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Wasn't how i read it but i could see that
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: as an interpretation i thought more of it's just like
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: they don't want to be in my experience with my
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: autistic communication difficulties the tiptoeing around hey could you consider
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: maybe doing something if it's not a big deal just
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: tell me to take out the fucking garbage Just tell
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: me I need you to take the garbage out. I
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: don't need three paragraphs of, so I'm sorry, but in
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: this household, we believe that, no, just tell me to
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: take the garbage out. I know that that's what you're
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: leading up to. Just fucking say it. So that was
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: more how I was resonating with this exchange.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: I did one of those the other day because never asked.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Do you mind if we, you know, order some food?
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: And when we order food, she orders it and I
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: go pick it up and bring it home. Every time.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: That's always what we do. We don't door dash it.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: You know, she doesn't drive and get it. I go
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: get it. And so then, you know, a few minutes later,
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: she's like, I ordered the food. If you don't mind,
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: could you go pick it up? And I was like,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: you already asked me if we could get the food.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: I already agreed to that. There is no need to
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: ask me again if I'd be willing to go pick
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: it up. That is part of the deal when I
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: agreed to us ordering food in the first place. Please
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: don't ask me that. Just tell me it's time. The
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: food is ready. Go get it. Right.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: So in my mind, Rurik was being like, are you
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: questioning my competence? Are we doing some sort of like
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: mind game? Oh, this is what Elaine wants. Thank you.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: Appreciate the clear communication. That's how I interpreted it. But yeah,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: there is maybe also a bit of like if the
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: English queen is haughty enough, then the savages will fall
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: in line, which also could easily be read from that.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: And I don't like that as much.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Elaine forgets to eat because she's so busy.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Very.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: You're planning a war. They brought food. Did she eat
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: any of it? I don't think she did.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: She's in her second trimester. I hope she's eating some
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: of it. And then she also puts the administration of
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Marilor itself onto Perrin, the ultimate coordinator. Yeah. That ends
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: up mattering, too.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Because it ends up going to Fahil, not to Perrin.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: And she's not even really trying to put the coordination
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: on him. She's trying to deliver the horn to Matt.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the coordination for the food. She puts the
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: coordination of Marilor, the logistics of Marilor on Perrin, which
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: also goes to Fahil. And then later she goes to
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Perrin and says, so can you help with all the
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: food stuff, which is cover for the horn stuff?
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: Right. Okay.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: But it's the organization and coordination and multifaceted nature of
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Perrin and Fahil's reality makes them the logical people to
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: go to repeatedly for logistics stuff. And ultimately Perrin's like,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: I got a nap instead. Ask my wife. I need
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: to take a nap.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Because Rand needs him. And he says that. I can't
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: be there. Rand will need me.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's true.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: It's true.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: And that's the end of that POV.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Do we talk about Ogier?
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: We end that POV and we go to the Elaine
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: didn't eat and then... Oh, because the Elaine didn't eat
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: thing is in the next POV.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Oh, you know, I missed the transition between the.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Ah, your e-book gave you the trick there.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, so yeah, we change POVs and then we get
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: the comment that she'd forgotten to eat. I'm pretty sure
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: she did eat, though. And then Brynn comes over and
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: gives her that, like, fatherly pat on the shoulder of, like,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: you're doing a real good job with being the coordinating
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: leader between all these different factions. And, you know, despite
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: all the other stuff and how I don't want to
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: work with you politically, you know, I'm still proud of you, kiddo.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, because it's not a POV switch. It's just an
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: hours later. It's a time jump. Ah. Because it's Elaine
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: to Elaine.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: It is a time jump. Yeah. We go from morning
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: to evening, but you're right. We're still in Elaine's head.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: I was like, what? POV switch? I thought we were
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: with Elaine this whole time. What are you talking about?
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: It's page break. I keep calling page breaks POV switches,
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: which is not accurate. That's on me. Time jump.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: They can be, and they often are, but they can
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: also be time jumps.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: More so under Sanderson. Jordan really didn't do time jumps
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: very much. Sanderson uses them a bit more.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Jordan almost always jumped between POVs to do a time jump.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Exactly. And then, yeah, we get to the Ogier
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: who have shown up. All ages, all genders. basically everyone
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: who's capable of wielding a weapon, right? The Ogier have
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: decided to go 100% population in on this. I'm assuming
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: there's some invalids literally couldn't come along that are being
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: cared for, but like everyone else is here and they're singing, right?
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: We had the trees earlier and we don't know how
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: they came about, but now we have actual Ogier singing
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: to the trees, making them even more scrumptious.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: This is where we find out that Loyal's mother didn't
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: actually believe they should leave. She was just arguing to
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: be devil's advocate, which, yeah, I just saw you roll
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: your eyes and shake your head. It's kind of my opinion, too. Like,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: you shouldn't argue for something you don't believe in.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: It's worth turning over the other perspective sometimes, like just
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: to consider it and be like, do I understand what
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: the other argument is? But passionately arguing for the thing
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: for hours and hours and hours and really convincing people
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: of something just to say, ha ha, I didn't mean
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: that at all. Feels like kind of a cop out.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: It feels like, oh, so you're always right because you
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: can just decide that that's not what you meant after all. Like,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't like Loyal's mom. I don't. I
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: didn't like her before and I really don't like this. Oh,
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: I actually was just making sure that you knew what
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: the right argument was. Like, fuck off. Just say what
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: you mean. Again, I'm back over with the ideal being like,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: be honest with me.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: It feels very debate, college debate tactful.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: Which has mostly ruined our society. Debate people, debate tactics
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: are like where most of our current social discourse ales
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: are stemming from is that fucking culture. It's not helpful.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: And that's how you get shot in the neck.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Exactly. It's not helpful. It's not productive. It's not efficient.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: It's not good. Like, yes, you do learn the depth
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: of your commitment through adversity, but that's no reason to
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: create artificial adversity when real adversity already exists. And being
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: right in an argument isn't actually the point, right? Making
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: the world a better place through productive interactions with others
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: is the point. Is this productive? Is this productive?
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: I still remember being forced to debate the death penalty
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: and being forced to do pro-death penalty. And the only
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: argument I could come up with, as in middle school
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: or whatever, was like, well, it does reduce the world population,
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: which is something we should be advocating for. And that
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: was my only argument that I could come up with
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: when I was doing my research. And this is in Texas,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: by the way. That did not go over well with
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: my classmates or my teacher. But I was like, I
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: can't find another legitimate reason for it. It doesn't reduce crime.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: It's not a good deterrent. You know, it's not cheaper. Yeah.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: And it's a fine exercise to be like, can you
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: find a pro-death penalty argument? Like, that's a good intellectual
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: exercise to run through that. But yeah, being shamed for
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: being curious enough to find the answer that is right
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: for you. Not super helpful.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Not super helpful. But that's that I think from then
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: on out, I always had a bit of a sour
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: taste in my mouth about the debate debates. Yeah. You know,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: for the sake of debating. You know, sure, have an
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: argument because you believe in something. I'm all about that.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Have an argument because the science supports something. Absolutely. Have
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: an argument because, oh, there are two sides and you
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: should be able to support both sides equally. And I
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: hate that. I hate it. I don't like it. And,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: you know, I get it. Like, that's how our legal
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: system works, right? It's like you have someone arguing both
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: sides and someone else deciding who's right.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, our legal system with all of its lack of flaws.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: And Fuji's got a good point. A lot of the
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: debate has turned into humiliating the opponent rather than convincing
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: people or arguing the actual point. And I think that's
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: that's what I hate about debates is you can win
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: without actually proving that you're right.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Exactly. That's the thing is it's all about scoring style
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: points rather than like the actual substance of what's being discussed. Because, yeah,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: I'm all about arguing real facts, real opinions, real perspectives.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Playing a game where we score hits on each other
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: until one of us taps out is just not the
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: same thing.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Agreed. So anyway, that line, I made the argument, though
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: I did not truly believe it was right. That, I believe,
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: set off us two autistic people on our justice.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: It does not fit with how we navigate these things
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: at all. And then Loyal says, getting laid is great.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Why did no one tell me having sex was amazing?
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: It is one of my favorite Loyal moments when he's like,
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: Being married is not so bad, Baron. Why didn't you
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: tell me it was not so bad? I think I
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: am rather fond of it. I'm pleased for you, loyal
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Elaine cut in. Enough about getting laid.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, pregnant lady.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Listen, they banged once.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: It was more than once. It was one night, but
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: it was more than once.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Fair enough.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: And then Haman has a really cool line where he says,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: in all my life, men have only cut great trees.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: To see someone growing them instead, we made the correct
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: decision to stay. The fact that Rand was able to
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: bring these great trees into the picture is reassuring to
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: the Ogier.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Even if it was through magic and instant rather than
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: the patience that the Ogier usually appreciate.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Look, the man has five entire seconds in which to
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: pull the stunt off. Give him a break.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: What's Elaine's nickname?
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Dragonrider.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: The winds of time. Oh.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Better. That's better.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: May the dragon once again ride the winds of time.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: And then here is where Elaine asks Perrin to manage
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: food logistics to get refugees fed. And then he's like, oh, yeah,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: pass it off to Fahil. She's good at everything. And
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: she's like, well, there's the Horde of Valir stuff.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Because they're like, oh, we have to get it to
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: Matt because until he dies, which he's done twice, only
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: he can blow it.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Did he die twice between blowing the horn? Yeah.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: Both of his deaths were after he blew the horn. Yeah.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, whether or not you want to count the
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: hanging death, which is not technically counted by the Horn
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: of Valir.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Because it's not true brain death.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: His heart stopped, but he was not truly dead. He
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: was just.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: But the balefire death. Is a real death.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: He was not in existence for a short, brief period
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: of time.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like 15 minutes or something. Like a decent enough
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: chunk of time for the servers to reset on the horn.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was dead dead. Body on the ground, corpse
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: being found, nothing left but the boots.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, Rand has memories of Matt being dead, right?
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: So it's, it happened in that true ephemeral way that
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: the horn, I mean, the horn doesn't have a creation date, right?
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: So of course the horn is like, yeah, no, you did.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: You died.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: But Matt doesn't remember dying. So he thinks it's the
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: hanging that disconnects him because he's but they set him
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: straight later.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: And then, you know, it's really appropriate that Fahil end
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: up being entrusted with it.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: She reflects on the irony of it later when she's
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: handling it, being like, man, I left my home for
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: this shit.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: I do think that's a hilarious full circle moment when
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: she's the only hunter for the horn of the main characters.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: That was sort of her excuse. And then she finds
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: this guy, gets married, goes through this whole adventure, gives
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: up on the horn. And then someone's like, oh, yeah,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: by the way, here, can you hold this for a second?
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: The horn? Oh, I guess I found it.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's one of those like sometimes you got to
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: not chase the thing too hard and then it will
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: just come to you.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: It would have been funny if she'd been the one
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: who ended up blowing it, but I do like the
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Oliver full circle.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. She ends up being a hero of the
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: horn in the sense that she's part of the cycle.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Like the horn has a chapter with her where she
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: is very like, I mean, she puts her life on
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: the line to protect the horn. She's part of its saga.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: She's not a horn blower. And it is really sweet
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: when it gets given to Oliver. But it would have
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: been also sweet if... But then, you know, if she'd
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: blown it, that would have been something that was a
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: threat hanging over her for the rest of her life.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Right. Right.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: So it's better to give it to the adventure kid
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: who's going to have threats hanging over him for the
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: rest of his life anyway, because he's going to go
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: be an adventure kid. She's going to try to go
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: like be a queen and a mom and stuff.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: No, I agree. The writing is correct to have Oliver
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: do it. But it would have been a fun full
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: circle moment if she had been like, oh... I went
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: off to find the horn and here I am blowing it.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. But I think there's enough with her guarding
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: it to fill that circle. Yeah.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: It's full circle enough with the fact that she literally
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: nearly dies protecting it. Her last conscious thought is, well,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: I did my best for the horn. So it's nice
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: full circle in that regard.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: We have Perrin communicating about his connection with Matt. I'm like, weird.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Why are you telling people this? He really is in
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: this moment where he's like, oh, yeah, I'm just telling
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: everybody everything. Like, I'm super magical. Like, I'm not hiding
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: the wolves. I'm not hiding the dreams. I'm not hiding
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: the connection with Rand and Matt.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's cards on the table now. What are
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: you going to do? Not follow me? You already know
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: I'm a werewolf. So it's fine. And we get confirmation that, yes,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Matt did, in fact, beeline to Ebudar. As soon as
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: he had dropped Moraine off, he was straight back to
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: his wife.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: But also to try and convince her to join the
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: last battle, right? Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: But just like we were debating, like, where is he? Like,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: he is riding as fast as he can for Ebudar.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: That's where he is.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: Why didn't he do a gateway?
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Because he's a punk-ass bitch and also plot. I'm guessing.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing it's a timeline plot thing. Or maybe it
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: was so that she could hear of him coming, right?
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: Or something like that.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: I guess. I don't know.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: And then, yeah, Elaine says the Shan Shan are the enemy. And,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: you know, that's the thing we're going to have to
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: deal with across the course of this battle is... how
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: are we going to negotiate with the Shanshan? They're literally
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: the enemy and also an ally. They are holding both
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: states at the same time.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Complicated. And in classic America style, they wait till the
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: last minute in the world war to jump in and
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: win it and take all the credit when the other
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: countries have ground and ground and ground for most of
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: the battle and given up most of the death.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Brainwashed, fanatical, culty slave empires have a certain style when
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: it comes to global conflict.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying, he does a really good job of
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: making the Sean Chan in America pretty equivalent. Yeah.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like Rand being Jesus-coded. It's really hard
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: to ignore. Yeah, he couldn't have gotten it from Moraine,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: and Moraine couldn't have gotten it from the Ashaman.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, how does Moraine get back to Marilor?
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Well, because they're getting a gateway from one of Perrin's Ashaman.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: That's who's picking them up.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: That's right. Because he's opening a gateway on a regular
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: basis when they return. Yeah.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: And maybe Matt did get a gateway closer to Ebudar
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: at that same time.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: Probably. I don't think he rode across the entire country. Yeah. Continent.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Didn't necessarily ride the whole way, but he went to
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Ebudar as quickly as possible. He did not stop over
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: in Merilor. He immediately popped over there. But yeah, presumably
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: he just had the Ashaman open him up another gateway.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: So when I said I'm surprised he didn't use a gateway,
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: it's because he did. That brings me to the POV switch,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: actual POV switch to Lan and Bulan. Yeah.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: They are getting told what the plan is for the
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: overall battle. Your job is to be a delaying force
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: because we have other things to do. You're one of
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: the four battlefields. You know, it's good for someone like
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Lan to be aware of his role in the larger battle.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: It's also like you're going back to doing what you
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: were doing before, right? Before he was a delaying force
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: with just a few of his Mal'kyr. Now he's a
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: delaying force with like most of the Borderlander armies. Yeah.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: We've reinforced you, but the mission has not changed.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: You've got the mound of carcasses as a wall. Yeah.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Nasty. He mentions that it smells horrible. I'm sure it
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: smells worse than horrible. And then Lan gives a good speech.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: He gives a good rousing speech to the people that
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: kind of comes out of nowhere. He's like, I don't
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: know where that came from, but it seems to have worked.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: It's a good speech.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: He's a king. He's being, you know, it's like a king.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: King stuff comes out like it's like forced out of him.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: But it's like land is a king and he's acting
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: like one.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's definitely got the not this day kind of
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: energy behind it. It says, why do we mourn? This
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: is not what we have trained for. This is not
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: our purpose, our very lives. This war is not a
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: thing to mourn. Other men may have been lax, but
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: we have not been. We are prepared. And so this
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: is a time of glory. Let there be laughter. Let
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: there be joy. Let us cheer the fallen and drink
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: to our forefathers who taught us well. If you die
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: on the morrow awaiting your rebirth, be proud. The last
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: battle is upon us, and we are ready. It's pretty dank.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: It's pretty awesome.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: Very inspiring.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: And it's the, why are you sad that you are
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: ready for the thing you've been preparing for, right? This
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: has been our culture for centuries, is getting ready for
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: this moment, and you are the one who gets to
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: do the thing. Come on, psych yourself up. You've been
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: doing this for centuries. finish being excited about it and
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: that you know reminds people of the larger mission right
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: it's i don't get it personally but it totally makes
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: sense from a people who want to be in this
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: situation perspective this is the kind of reminder you need
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: that it's not all stupid there's a reason you decided.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: To be here that's sort of and that leads into
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: the poetry reading yeah by isar.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: A drum with no head a pump with no grip
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: a song with no voice still it is mine still
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: it is mine It's an elegy for the poet's father.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: And the poet is named for Angela Bland from Ridingwood,
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: a fan of The Wheel of Time. Ah. And we
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: have a poem from her earlier, I believe in The
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Eye of the World, but they don't name the poet.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: I was wondering, because I remember that there was that
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: poetry exchange in Eye of the World, I was wondering
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: if this was the same poet. So that poet wasn't mentioned,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: but it has been retconned to be the same person?
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Nice. And that person is now a fan of the
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Wheel of Time. Oh, that's cool. That's neat. I'm willing
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: to accept that kind of retconning. It was originally blank,
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: so there's nothing says that it wasn't this the whole time.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: All right. The rose petal floats on the water. The
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: kingfisher flashes above the pond. Life and beauty swirl in
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: the midst of death. So that's the quote from Eye
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: of the World, chapter 46. Yeah.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: And Lan is a poet. So he instantly is like, oh,
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: that sounds like that other poet. And okay, cool. I'm
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: glad to know that that is officially the same person.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: Because it felt like a full circle moment. So that
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: seems appropriate. So what do you think is the meaning
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: of inserting this poem into this moment?
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: Oh, man. I don't know. A drum with no head,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: a pump with no grip, a song with no voice. Still,
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: it is mine because they're just talking about self-pity. And
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know, those seems to be things that are
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: not useful, but yet you keep them. It's like, what
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: are these people?
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: I think it's about grief because it's an elegy for
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: her father, right?
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: It's like losing an arm when you lose somebody, right?
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: The idea that people describe like missing something. Right.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: A drum with no head. Right. You're supposed to be
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: able to drum on this thing, but you can't because
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: the head is gone. But you still have it like
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: it is yours. And that's what these men are all doing. Right.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: They're all mourning. They're all grieving the fact that the
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: world is ending, that they're going to die, that everyone
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: they know is going to die. But like still, that
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: is your reality. This is yours. You have it's like
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: almost like a radical acceptance of grief kind of thing.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Like, sure. Yeah.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: The person died.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: The world's ending. still it is yours to bear. Still
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: it is yours to deal with, to process. You can't
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: run away from it. That's my interpretation. And also, Vujie's right.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: It does kind of sound like one of those riddles
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: that end in, what am I?
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: I am a song with no voice. I am a
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: pump with no grip.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: I am the wind.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: I got one. I was watching a horror movie with
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Never Last Night, and there was one where they had
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: the riddle, and I was like, that's a name. And
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: then later on, they're like, it's the And I was like, yeah,
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: I got that from the riddle. It was like one
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: of those things like it's given to you at birth.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: You have it until death. It has no weight, but
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: it's with you always. It's like, yeah, that's that's your name.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Oh, I like Marzipan's interpretation. You don't have much, but
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: what you have, you hold. The memory of what was
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: is enough to be worth fighting for. Poetry is always
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: very open ended. So, yeah, I thought it was worth poking.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: One of the few instances that we actually do get
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: poetry and not prophecy. Yeah.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Also, there's the interesting note that the poem is supposed
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: to be spoken only when the time is right, with
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: no instructions as about what it means for the time
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: is right.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Which means Isar in that moment thought the time was right.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: I think it's interesting that he said it right after
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: Lan was talking about, I can't stand self-pity. Too many
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: of them look as if they're preparing their own shrouds.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: Like these men are grieving.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because Isar says you have the soul of a
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: leader and Lan says, no, I'm not leading people. I
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: just don't like to see all that self-pity. And then, yeah,
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Isar responds with a poem about holding on to things
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: that are painful. I don't know. Map your own emotions
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: onto it. That's what poetry is for.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I really do think that's a moment where you
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: can decide to interpret that the way you want. And
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: there's not one way and not one thing he's saying
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: with that poem.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Again, unlike prophecy, poetry is much more open-ended. And then
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: I have a very funny little exchange where Lan says,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: I'm totally cool being a leader now. I'm over all
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: my bullshit. And Aesir says, really? And Lan says, what
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: am I, some sheepherder from a forgotten village?
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Sorry, Lan, it took you longer to get over it
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: than it took that sheepherder to get over it.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Or the blacksmith or the town trickster. You were the
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: slowest of all of them.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: It took you 25 years to get over it. It
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: took them a couple of months.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: And they weren't even 25 years old yet.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: When they did it. And then we just get, I
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: feel like we have Borderland... channelers with male channelers, Ashomon
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: with land.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Narishma specifically assigned to protect the borderlands. He's like,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: all right, we've got everyone borderlander, even the Ashomon.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: And that is cool. I wonder if it's just because
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: that's one of the few groups of Ashomon who haven't
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: been corrupted.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, kind of like the two rivers, right? The
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: borderlands tend to be less prone to being corrupted for
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: a variety of reasons.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: That probably helps a lot. Also, again, for plot reasons,
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: we can't have these guys getting too hollowed out by
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: dark friendery for narrative reasons. The dark friend rot has
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: to be in other parts, but the Borderlanders have to
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: be more pure, more correct, more on the side of light.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Even though we had Inktar as our first dark friend.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: But he was a dark friend for the right reasons
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: and redeemed himself.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: I don't think he was a dark friend for the
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: right reasons, but I will admit he redeemed himself.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: He was not a dark friend for the mustache twirly reasons,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: I guess, is more what I would say. Like, you know,
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: he chose dark friendry thinking that it was like, yeah,
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: like Varen, right? Yeah. Well, not like Varen, but, you know,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: he redeemed himself because he realized he'd made a mistake.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: So it still puts him in a different league. But yeah,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: they end on this nice rousing moment of we're going
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: to fight together. And then we can transition over to
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: chapter eight, that smoldering city with the Lion of Andor
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: as the symbol. We start with Elaine on top of
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: her horse thinking about the stables in the palace being
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: taken over by Trollocs, and she doesn't want to think
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: about what else and who might have ended up in
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: the cookpots and given our discussion last chapter like.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Nori yeah nori not to mention the chapter before that
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: where we're like oh it looks like 200 out of
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: the 300 000 people may be missing.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah also everybody else yeah.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Because they said Hundreds of thousands of people are missing
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: and the city population is 300,000. So to get to
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands, you're talking two out of every three
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: people are in those cookpots.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Or in the city somewhere in a line to get cookpotted.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: I also think because Elaine's a horse girl, she might
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: have been specifically thinking about the other horses in the stable. But,
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: you know, the who covers a lot.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's... Having a lot of emotions, right? The once
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: proud city was dead. She hadn't ruled Camelon for a
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: hundred days and already it was lost, right? She's having
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: a lot of queen feelings.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: We find out that the mercenaries either, you know, joined
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: the armies of the light or have been disbanded. So
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: we're never going to hear about them again. Like that's
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: what happens to the mercenary groups, right? They've been written off. Yeah.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They've just been folded into all the other things.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: She thinks about how The dragons destroying the walls mean
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: that the world is changing. Everything we know about warfare
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: will change, right? That's a fourth age issue, but also
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: it's something she's going to need to think about from
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: day one of the fourth age.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: And something we've seen in prophecy with like Matt and
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: the bowling balls and, you know, the bowling pins and
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: knocking them all down. And the fact that the bowling
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: pins are basically hundreds and each pin represents many, many,
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: many men being shot and killed by cannons and guns.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: Talmanis is there, despite the fact that he's only a
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: day out of his deathbed.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: And he's not cursing nearly enough for Elaine.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: I love that she's like, man, I thought Matt would
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: have corrupted this guy more. Are they not married? Why
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: don't they sound the same yet? And they point out
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: that there's probably not hundreds of thousands of Trollocs. There's
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: probably only tens of thousands that they have to deal
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: with in the city. So that's good news.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: And we find out that she is supported by the Sosayamon,
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: that is the contingent of Aiel that have come, supported her.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: Those are the ones with the headbands who are the
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: weapons of.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: The Spears of the Dragon.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: The Spears of the Dragon, yep.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: They've decided to devote themselves to Elaine's cause rather than...
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of confused why Elaine, instead of Shale Ghoul,
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: you'd think they'd be the most determined to do the
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: Shale Ghoul thing.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: But I feel like the spear goes where the spear
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: is told. The spear has no opinion.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: So I guess Rand at some point must have... found
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: the Soswayamon leader and said, go to protect a lane.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: I think just by being under the command, I really,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, I think the Soswayamon are
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: a form of Gaishine. Sure. Yeah.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: But why did they pick a lane?
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: They didn't. They were told, they were commanded by Ruark
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: or somebody to go with the lane.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: I could see Ruark saying, y'all go fight elsewhere because
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: you weird out my soldiers. Like normal Aiel are weirded
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: out by fighty Gaishine. So like go to a different,
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: go do something else useful.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And Elaine's in charge, right? So she's going to
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: be the one who the Swiss Imon are going to like,
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: they can't really protect Ran because he's bouncing all over
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: the place. And also that's Elaine's, that's Ran's love and child.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: She doesn't announce the child thing until the end of
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: this chapter, though.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: No, but the Aiel know.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Do they?
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: That's a good question. I don't know.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: I could totally see Rurik being like Bashir and being like,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: I have daughters. I have a wife, two wives in
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Rurik's case. I could see him having kind of put
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: two and two together, but I don't know if he's
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: going to be spreading it around as common knowledge when
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Elaine hasn't yet. He's kind of classier than that. Let's see.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: So Elaine's talking to Bashir a bit. It's a mention
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: of goat's milk. That's fun.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Her idea. Oh, she liked the idea of seeing
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: one of her children on the throne of Saldea. Damn, Elaine.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Trying to make a homogeny here.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. A hegemony.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: Hegemony. What did I say? Homogeny. Homogeny.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: Like she's the homogenized milk.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: Hegemony. Homogeny. I, yeah, I guess I always thought those
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: were similar words, but they're not.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it's a totally different Latin root and everything.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: It's not just a pronunciation thing. They're different words.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: No. Yeah. A hundred percent. I believe with you. A
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: homogenized hemogeny? Homogenized hemogeny? Yeah.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. Her goal to be the Queen Victoria of
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: Randland is very naked.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: She wants all the rulers to be cousins.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: And at this point, Saldea is basically Spain, right? Where
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: she's like, let's marry.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, basically.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: If Camelon and Andor is England and London and Kyrianne
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: is France, then Saldea is definitely Spain in this situation. Yeah. Yeah, agreed.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Strong agree.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: Thelon, mother's homogenized milk in a cup.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: That's a good one. Oh, yeah.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: And I totally agree. Yeah, the Siswayamon are definitely like
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: the anti-brotherless, the inverse brotherless. The brotherless deny that the
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: dragon is even possible at all. And then the Siswayamon
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: are like, we have no thought but dragon. They're equally
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: annoying and weird to regular Aiel because they've just gone
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: so maximally extreme, but they are kind of inverse and opposite.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: Well, I see them as guys shine as in the
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: only way they have this massive toe, whatever that original
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: sin is of the Aiel that they find out about
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: because they were told about it. And the only way
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: they can make it up is by dedicating their lives
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: to serve Rand. And I think it's the same reason
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: why some people throw off their spears and just become
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: Gaishine permanently, is they see that as the only way
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: to make up for the toe and the violence that
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: they did is say, oh, I will never do violence again.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: So it's just, it's different reactions and basically people breaking
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: in different ways when exposed to the information that Ran
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: brought out of Ruridian.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: Right, exactly. So yeah, they continue to talk about their
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: plan to goad the Trollocs out of the city, bring
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: them into the woods. She's just, Riding around being leaderly.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: Danil gets his time in the sun as the leader,
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: second in command behind Tam.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: And then, yes, we get the Bashir and Elaine talking
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: about the politics of talking about her pregnancy during the war.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: Bashir asks, when are you going to tell the men
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: that you're carrying the Lord Dragon's child? And she's like,
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: I didn't say that. He's like, girl.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: We all know. Time to make an announcement.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: Anyone who's ever had to deal with a pregnant wife
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: can tell, like, whose pregnant wife you are. Like, it's
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: real obvious.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Also, the guy you said might be the father is
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: a dark friend, and that's not good politics because now
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: it looks like you're sleeping with a dark friend, right?
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: Like, it's... Like clearly that was a lie. So the
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: truth must be. And yeah, they kind of talk about
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: like keeping it hidden versus not. Right. Are your babies
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: in any more danger? Could they be in any more
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: danger than they already are?
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: You are the pregnant queen of Andor. Your children are
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: already targets. Adding a little dragon reborn sparkle on it
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: will make much more of a difference to your troops
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: than to your enemies.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: And I kind of like the context of that conversation
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: being around the burning down of Camelon, which is also
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: kind of one of her children.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: Sure, sure. It's a thing she's responsible for, for caring
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: for mother of the nation, all that kind of vibe.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. A child she could not protect. Yeah.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: And, you know, she's trying to fight to protect the
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: concept of Camelon and Andor. And he says, you know,
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: the soldiers will fight more bravely if they have something
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: to protect, if it's not just this burnt out husk
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: of a city, but to protect the heirs, to protect
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: the future. Like, that's going to give them more fire
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: under their ass.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, they burn the city down and then
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: run to the forest, basically to taunt the Trollocs.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: And Elaine, as she is hurling fire into the city,
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: she also hurls hope into her troops, much to Brigitte
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: and Bashir's approval. So that's nice. And then, yeah, she says,
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: you know, Camelon is dead. Long live Camelon, basically. And
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: marches off to kick ass. And then we POV switch
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: over to Andral, who is waking up post-wall collapse, where
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: we last left him.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: Like 24 hours later. This is quite a bit of
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: time has passed, it seems.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like they got knocked out in the evening
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: and now it's early evening again. So yeah, like 20
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: to 24 hours later. He immediately picks up again with
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: telepathically talking with Pavara. They're getting very good at this.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: And then we have a really, I don't really like
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: the way they treat the conversion of Evian.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this just doesn't even square with what's happening with anything.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: No, it feels very, I don't know.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: It feels like it's just being tortured into a confession.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: And for some, and like, The weak-willed versus strong-willed, I'm just...
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: I don't know. And it's like, oh, he's instant, but
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: Loghain takes days and days and days. There's really that
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: much of a difference in, like... And it doesn't match
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: up with, like, Rand's fear of it, and... Because Rand
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: is super strong-willed. He could never be converted, right? Like... Right?
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. Yeah.
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: Like, I mean, in fairness, first, they do take Evan
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: and torture him to break him, and then they turn him, but... Yeah. It's... The...
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: I don't even like this part because it just feels
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: like Evan was introduced just to be proven to be weak.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, they came for me and I
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: broke so easily and then I'm going to go get
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: tortured real quick and be turned real quick. And it's
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: just like, why did you make me care about him?
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: If the whole point is to prove that like this
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: young kid is weak willed. I don't know.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: It's.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's what makes someone strong world
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: versus weak willed. What's that like? You know, this isn't
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: fucking Jedi, you know, control the mind of the weak willed. Yeah. Yeah.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know what about it that makes me feel
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: like it's just a bit of a weakly written bit.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: Maybe Athlon's pointing out Prevara should... have been feeling Andral's
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: panic through the bond instead of being like, what's going on? Yeah,
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: it feels rushed. The whole exchange feels rushed. And yeah,
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: distant and abstract is in chat. We don't marinate in
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: it for as long as Andral, what he says is.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: feels like it should be marinating in it i don't.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: Know right and i think that's i'm just trying to
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: put my finger on why it doesn't feel right and
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: maybe rushed is better than.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: Light yes i know what you mean it doesn't have
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: the depth and heaviness that it should yeah so i
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: mean yeah i guess not heavy is also a synonym
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: for light yeah it's more just rushed it doesn't have
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: the horror umami that i feel like it needs So yeah,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Pavar and Andrew will talk about knots and shields and
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: trying to push out of it. Yeah, they kind of
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: move on from Evan real quick. It feels like there
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: should be this like backbeat of being sad about that,
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: even though it's too late. Like it should be like
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: echoing desperation or something.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: Instead, they have this like, well, I guess we're going
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: to jump off the highest cliff because that's once you've decided.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: And it's like, you guys didn't decide to do anything.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: You got captured.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Switching to the cliff conversation feels out of place.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: Like, it's a good way to fill up some time
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: while they fiddle with a lockpicking situation to be like,
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: so which cliff did you jump off of and why? Like,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: that's fine, but it feels a little bit janky next
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: to the horror of Evan getting turned. And then Evan
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: comes over with a dead-eyed stare and, yeah, it doesn't
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: quite hit the way it should.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: I like Athlon. It's a text conversation. It's not conveying
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: emotion well. It's just, you know, text over mental chat.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: I need more emojis, I guess, in this conversation.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: Well, especially because part of the problem with this conversation,
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: it's supposed to be emotional first and they're interpreting the
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: emotions to get text. Right. It should be emotions first.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: And it feels like it's emotions last. Yeah. So I
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: don't really have a lot to say about the context.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: Just they're planning to escape. We get the cliff jump
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: off thing, which is like when I do something, I
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: do it all the way.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Why accept the risk if not for the greatest prize?
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know, dude, maybe risk assessment.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: Right. Like, is it is the greatest prize that much
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: better than the second place prize, which would be way
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: less risky?
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: I guess it's just because it was entirely a dick
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: measuring contest.
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: Right. Because the prize is being able to say that
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: you jumped off the tallest. Right. Not, oh, well, I
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: jumped off. The prize is being able to talk about
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: how much you accomplished. So the prize is bragging rights.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: So why not go for the most bragging rights if
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: you're already going to, like, take the risk?
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: But, you know, Pavara takes it as he's going to
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: give it his all even when things get dark.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: And that's how we know we're going to escape is
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: because that's a strong level of conviction coming from him.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: So, all right. All right. Because that matters in the
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: real world. Yeah.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: And then, yeah, Andro looks in horror at the thing
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: wearing Evan's face and thinks about how lucky Nalam was
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: to die before having to deal with all this, which
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: that Does make the horror sink.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: That hits.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: That does hit. That last bit of the paragraph where
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: he's like, oh man, that guy was lucky to die.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh, that was the emotion I was expecting
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: for the last page and a half.
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah. The envying the dead type situation is the like, okay, yeah. Yeah.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: And we see 13 shadows coming over to get Imaran
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: right away. So that completely knocks out my theory that
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: somehow turning costs a fade and that's why they've been
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: doing it piecemeal. No, it doesn't. I tried.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It would be cool, though, if they I mean,
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: maybe they just have like 50 murder all hanging out
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: and just whenever they use one, they have plenty of extra.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: But then there's no delay.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. Oh, Athlon, I love that. The
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: turned channelers are pretty much gen AI clones of the
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: original people with a prompt to serve to serve the
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: shadow as well as you can. I like that. I
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: like that. That's a good crossover with the horrors of
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: the modern moment. AI psychosis. As an entire person.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: There is a certain theory that that is going to
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: be something that, you know, essentially people are going to
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: create this AI chatbot on your personality and it's going
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: to convince people that there is this, you're creating this
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: digital copy of yourself, but it is just this like
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: procedurally generated AI chatbot that has no internal debate and
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: is only very loosely based on your characteristics, right? Like
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: at what point does that become a realistic copy of you?
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: You know, we're talking about the Babaverse, right?
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: And this is why you should not put everything of
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: yourself online.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: Why you should keep some parts of yourself entirely offline
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: and analog.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: There was a book called Revelation Space that I really
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: enjoyed by Alistair Reynolds. And there is a character in
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: there who is, there's tiers of AI, right? And one
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: of the tiers of AI is a copy of a
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: person based on observing them. And that's not considered true
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: AI like a scan of the brain would be.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: And so there's this like multiple tiers. But then there's
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: like there's a character who ends up being a clone
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: of another character. And he has this AI version of
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: the person he was cloned of implanted into his head.
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: And so it's kind of like he's able to it's
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: like he's physically a clone. Basically, there's a character who
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: wanted– I don't want to go too much into the books,
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: but there's a character who wanted immortality and did everything
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: he could in the early days of technology to ensure
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: that he had that, which include, A, yes, a brain
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: scan when he was dying, but also this AI personality
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: clone and then an actual genetic clone of himself. And
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: then what he tried to do is put the AI
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: clone into his genetic clone in order to recreate himself.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: Because he knew that one of those wasn't enough. Oh, wow.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: That's an interesting premise.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: But then but then the main character is this guy
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: who doesn't realize that he's supposed to be a recreation.
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: He thinks it's just his father and he has his
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: father's like giving him advice, his father's voice giving him advice.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: But really, he finds out later he's a clone of
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: this guy and that was supposed to be like a
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: recreation of him. Oh yeah. I, I really like Alistair
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: Reynolds when it comes to hard sci-fi in terms of
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: like some concepts that he presents. And I'm sure it's
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: not an original idea, but, uh, I wouldn't say necessarily
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: he writes the best novels, but I do really like
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: his sci-fi, hard sci-fi concepts.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, this is not hard sci-fi or emotionally satisfying.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: No, that was definitely a tangent. That's what that was.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: It is plot accelerating. And, uh, Yeah, it's a dark
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: note to leave our episodes on today, but that is
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: the end of our chapters.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: That is the end of the two chapters. Mostly in
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: a lane, POV.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: Mostly in a lane episode, yeah.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: But yeah, and then I am looking forward to, I
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: think we've got two more chapters next week? Probably.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: It's quite the series of doubleheaders for now. Yeah, yeah,
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: it is. It is 9 and 10 next week.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: We get to see, ooh, the cracks in reality. Oh, yeah.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: It's a battle-heavy episode next time. Fun. Fun, fun, fun. Well,
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: thanks for joining us again. Really appreciate it. Appreciate everyone
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: who's sticking with us through this final book. You guys rock.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: Thank you. I am an audio person.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: Wait, you only exist as audio? That's crazy. correct.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: I have a non-corporeal form that definitely did not make
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: myself a dress form over the weekend. I actually did it.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: My mom and I have been talking about it for years,
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: and we actually did the t-shirt and duct tape dress
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: form modeling of myself. So now, in theory, I will
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: have an easier time making clothes that fit.
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: Is that something you'll have to explain that a little
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: bit more? Because I don't understand. I vaguely get shirt
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: and duct tape is that what you said dress form
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: but how does that turn into something you can use.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: It's a model of my body and i you know
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: cut it off of myself and then taped it up
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: and stuffed it with paper and put it on a
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: stand and so now i have a life-sized perfectly accurate
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: model of my own shoulders chest belly ass i can
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: put clothes on it to fit them and see how
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: they're gonna fit Yeah, a long t-shirt and then a
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: little bit of saran wrap around like my neck and
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: arms and lower ass. And then, yeah, just wrap duct tape,
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: you know, crosshatch pattern and around and around and around
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: until you have a complete shell. I was completely armored
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: in duct tape, my whole trunk. And then, yeah, you
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: cut that off and tape it back up and stuff
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: it full of, in my case, paper. I'd been hoarding
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: packing paper for several years. like so many years, just
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: brown craft paper. And I just crumpled it all up
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: and stuffed it in there. You could do it with newspaper.
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: And now I have a dress form, but it's not
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: a standard dress form. It's a dress form of me
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: specifically and all of my unique curves and odd shortnesses
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: and stuff. And so now I can take patterns that
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: don't necessarily fit me and see how they don't fit
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: me without having to kiss. really hard to get something
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: to like fit your shoulders or your back when you
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: have to twist to look at it right like it
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: it doesn't work but now I have a literal model
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: of myself I can be like aha that's how that's
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: gonna fit and whatnot it's a really really important tool
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: for making properly fitted custom clothes And we thought it
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: was going to be a whole process with spray foam
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: and stuff, but we just ended up stuffing it with paper. So, yeah.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: And there's enough tension from the paper pushing out and
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: the duct tape pushing in to create an accurate form.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's the thing with duct tape is that it
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: doesn't stretch, right? It won't stretch outward. It's kind of
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: the way it is. And so, yeah, take it off
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: really carefully and then it's a void. And then we
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: put cardboard discs in like the arm holes, the neck
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: hole and the bottom to like help hold them open.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: And then, yes, stuff it full of paper until it's
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: at a nice tension. You know, you can thump on
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: it and it's not going to crush inward, you know, solid.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: And some people will cover them in like batting and canvas.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: So that way they're actually pinnable as well. Obviously, duct
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: tape is not a very pinnable surface. But yeah, I
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: can now, in theory, model clothes on this thing instead
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: of on myself when I'm doing the test fitting process.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: Is there any issue with like the thickness of the,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: you know, material? Because you're not, that's sort of, you're
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: putting clothes on the outside of that and you're on
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: the inside of it. So is there any like? You know,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: do you have like folds of T-shirt that could cause
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: a problem or anything like that?
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: No, the T-shirt was pretty small, so it fit really,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: really closely. And then we wrapped the duct tape pretty
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: gosh darn tight.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: You know, I was not really able to bend over, right?
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: I was a little bit like walking around like a
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: Dalek or something or not the Dalek, the other ones,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: the Cybermen. I was walking around like a Cyberman. It's
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: just like, it doesn't have a whole lot of neck.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: Or shoulder.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: And that might be a problem, but you know, my
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: mom and I have been talking about it for years.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: And the funny thing was too, she'd read about it
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: in a magazine, like in the eighties and had wanted
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: to make one since forever. This is a thing that's
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: been around forever. And then we had to look up
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: so many tutorials and none of the tutorials were exactly
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: what we wanted.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: So we like made our own procedure out of watching
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: several different tutorials being like, no, that one's wrong. That
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: one's wrong. We're going to do it our own way.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: And it only cost $ 7 and 30 cents, which was
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: the cost of the roll of duct tape. I had
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: the t-shirt and I had some random t-shirts that had
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: just been given to me that I didn't want. I
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: had been saving that paper forever. We had made curtains recently,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: so I had a roll, the tube from the inside
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: of a roll of blackout curtain material. And we got
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: to the end of that, and we had this tube,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: this cool cardboard tube. And we're like, well, what are
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: we going to do with this? That's way too cool
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: to just throw out. Two weeks later, it's like, ah,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: that will be the cross piece and spine that holds
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: up the inner structure of the mold. So like literally
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: the only thing we had to buy was one roll
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: of duct tape and everything else I had already at home.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: Is there any sort of like listening to yourself record
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: and hearing your own voice? Is there anything like seeing
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: your own form out and being like, oh my God,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: I didn't realize that bump was there. I didn't realize
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: I looked like that.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: It's very weird. It's very weird. It's very uncanny being like,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: that's my torso. That's me, you know, like comes in
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: and sees, you know, just the hollow version of it.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I recognize that body. It's just like, oh,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: that's how big my ass is. Fascinating. I did not
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: appreciate quite whatever what else was appreciating. But now I
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: can see it, too. Cool, cool, cool.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: Someone at work took a photo of me from the
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: back cause I was, I was waiting for him. So
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: I was kind of sitting there on my phone. They're like, Oh,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: hardly working. You know, obviously, you know, took a photo
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: of me.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: There's things you learn about yourself, especially when you see
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: yourself from the back, which you don't normally do. Cause
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: I just, people always are like, your shoulders are huge
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: and I don't really believe them. Right. And then you
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: see yourself from the back. You're like, Oh, I do
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: have big shoulders and a tiny butt. Yeah. Oh, okay.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: No, you're, you're right. You're right. I just, I just,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: from that perspective is not something I see very often.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I only ever see my ass, like, in a
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: mirror where I've, like, turned my head and it's all,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: you know, but just being like, oh, I can just
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: pick myself up by the waist and be like, there
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: it is. Definitely weird. And it's kind of like, yeah,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: listening to your voice, it's a little uncomfortable to see
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: yourself that accurately, but it will make making clothes that
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: look really good on me a lot easier, right?
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: Because I'll be able to, like, see that and it
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: will make me look more like I think that I
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: should look.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: No, I... My wife was like, why do you always
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: wear a belt? And, you know, I was like, because
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: without one, I can literally pull my pants off with
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: them being buttoned. There's nothing holding them up.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: Uh-huh.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: Uh-huh.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: I have a friend who describes himself as having his
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: back just goes to his feet.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: There is no ass. It is simply a board.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: I consider it the Mr. Incredible build.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So it is definitely a little bit uncomfortable to
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: be that honest about one's own proportions. But like it
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: is what it is. If I want to make tailored
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: clothes that look good on me, this is a tool
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: that will make the try it on, pin it, take
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: it off, try it on, pin like all of that.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: So many less steps with a dress form. And yeah,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: there's just no because of the fact that my trunk
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: is kind of short. There is no dress form that
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: has the adjustable parts that would actually capture me. right?
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: Adjustable dress forms tend to be in the growing outward direction.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: You don't generally can't change the length of the spine.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: And like, that's one of the things that my shoulders
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: are narrow. My spine is short. Like I am petite.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: My literal bone structure is smaller than the standards. So
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: a customizable one was never going to work. It had
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: to just be literally me. And we watched one tutorial
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: where someone did like the math to like make their
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: own pattern and then sew a cloth one. But like this,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: there was no math. There was no drafting. It was
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: just literally, this is a duct tape shell of my body.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: I know Liesl, a friend of the pod who made
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: my Gleam and Cloak, has a form that's, I think,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: one of the adjustable ones that just fits, that's her shape.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure if it's custom or not, but I
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: think it's for her.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's customizable ones that if you're close enough to
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: average in some proportions, then a customizable or one of
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: the adjustable ones would totally work. And then, yeah, my
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: mom and I will probably make one for her next
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: year after she actually builds her sewing room because she's
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: still halfway through building the cabin where that sewing room
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: will go. So we'll make the dress for her next year.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: But I also have to see if I like having
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: it be a duct tape surface. I don't know if
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: the duct tape is really going to do it for me.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: It might get gooey or something. I might need to
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: get covered. I don't know. Anyway, I am both a
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: non-corporeal voice in your ears and also a Real three-dimensional
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: person who needed to make an actual physical mold of
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: my body in order to tailor for myself better. That's
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: the TLDR.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: I overate yesterday and my tummy's upset. That's really all
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: I got going on.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: Was it at least a good meal?
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: It was less a meal and more just like, you know,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: smoking weed for the first time in a while and
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: eating way too many munchies.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: Oh.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: So, yeah. I got to the end of the day
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: and then and then, you know, I got home and
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: I was by my home by myself doing, you know,
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: things I shouldn't be. And then we get home. My
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: wife's like, let's go out to eat. I'm like, OK,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: after being completely full at that point, you know, probably
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: overly full at that point. And I did not skimp
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: on dinner either. And I'm just I'm old now. I
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: can't do that anymore without it upsetting my tummy for
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: like a day afterwards. You know, when you're young, you're like, oh, yeah,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: I ate too much. Darn. I guess I'll gain a
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: few pounds, you know, but then burn it off. Now
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: it's like, damn you. All right. Anyway, you can cut
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: all that out, please. We're leaving just enough to be embarrassing,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: but not too much.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, that was mostly used to sow chatter,
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: so I don't even know if it's necessary for this podcast.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers Podcast.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: Please rate and review us on your podcast app and
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: consider supporting us on Patreon for ad-free episodes. What Spoilers
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: is a production of Fox and Raven Media. For more
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: podcasts from Fox and Raven Media, visit our website at foxandravenmedia.com.