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Big Law Journalism & Media (w/ Bloomberg Law's Tatyana Monnay) · Non-Billable Hours

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to another episode of Non-Blobal Hours.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: I am Bryson Malcolm.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: You are just going to be getting me today and a one-on-one conversation with Tatiana Monet, who is a reporter and journalist at Bloomberg Law, covering big law, mid-law, boutique law with a focus on diversity and DEI in the industry.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: So suffice it to say, her work has been quite interesting to me and integral to the work that I do.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's something that everyone should keep an eye on.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: There are some interesting nuggets here and there, especially with the work that Tatiana is doing.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: As it's on the forefront of a lot of this DEI pushback and rollback that the industry is facing.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Essentially, this conversation is just to provide a little bit more insight into how the legal news apparatus works and the various pushes and pulls of the industry so you can get a better idea of where things are coming from, why a law firm might talk to a reporter or not talk to a reporter.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: It leads into PR for firms and can also help you with your career insofar as it can give you an insight and increased transparency for the market for when you're trying to lateral or if you're trying to understand a business decision that a firm is making or a new structure they're contemplating going into, that's where these things start to become very relevant for your direct day-to-day experience.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: Lastly, and I do touch on this in the conversation, but I think talking with reporters and journalists is something that a lot of attorneys in big law are not familiar with or comfortable with.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: And in many conversations, I know people are reticent to share or have any conversation whatsoever with somebody in the media.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: But I hope that this conversation sheds a little bit more light on the process and the safety mechanisms behind everything and can lead to a more transparent industry because without people willing to talk to you, these reputable outlets such as Bloomberg or About the Law or Reuters, a lot of issues stay in the dark and they don't get addressed.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I know it's a scary thing to have a conversation with the media.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: I know it might not be the most comfortable thing for an attorney to do.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: But hopefully after this conversation, it gets you a little bit closer to at least understanding the costs and benefits of something like that so you're better positioned to essentially play the game if you want to view it that way, and at least try to improve the system step by step with some daylight.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, without further ado, here is my conversation with Tatiana Monet of Bloomberg Law.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Tatiana Monet.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a reporter at Bloomberg Law.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: I cover the business of law, specifically looking at law firms and also diversity at law firms, which sort of runs the gamut from big law and bar associations and and the legal industry really.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: Did you were you always doing reporting for the legal industry or did you start in another area?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: So my background is really policy and politics.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't start reporting on the the legal industry until I came over to Bloomberg Law and I think it was like May 2023, which isn't that long ago, but feels like forever ago now at this point.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I feel like a lot's happened.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a lot has happened.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a very active last year and a half for sure.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: How would you compare like legal sector reporting to policy generally?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything you like better about legal reporting or is it kind of the same deal but different shade?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Directly right before I joined Bloomberg Law, I was at Bloomberg News and I was reporting on Capitol Hill.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I was in Congress every day running after lawmakers, and this was just after the whole speakership drama with a former speaker, Kevin McCarthy.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it was an exciting time to be on the hill.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was like a chaotic time to be on the hill for sure.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I almost had like a very similar experience at Bloomberg Law.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: I joined a month before the SCOTIS decision that sort of did away with affirmative action.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that sort of kicked up the dust in this landscape a little bit.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost been chaotic in its own right for me.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's been that's been interesting.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I mean I assume I mean a lot of politicians are lawyers as well.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: So there might be a similar thread in how they talk about things.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I think, I mean, they've got to be more polished in terms of talking to reporters than attorneys are, I would think.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm actually not sure.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, it's I think the press have a different dynamic and a different relationship in each of those two worlds.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like in politics, I think politicians and their staff, lawmakers and their staff are just a lot they're just used to dealing with us a lot more.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: I found when I started covering law firms and lawyers and sort of these crazy litigation things that were happening in the diversity landscape that were happening, you know, lawsuits flying, it almost seemed like folks were kind of surprised that I was reaching out to them.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: They, I think, are maybe not as used to talking to the press.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's been interesting to kind of, at least from my end, just try to make the inroads that I can with firms that I have to cover and get them to talk to me.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been hard, but yeah.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I feel like with politics and politicians, the media is more integral to their entire job.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like they need to have a way to reach voters.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: And things like that, versus private sector law firms might be a little bit less sensitive to that kind of thing.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like the only reason they would really need to be in the news is for showing off to potential clients, I would think, or just general convincing people to join the firm out, maybe.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: But beyond that, I can totally get why it's not really a thing until recently.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: Would you say that legal reporting has become more prevalent now?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because I can't tell if it's just my perspective as to when I shifted into recruiting to pay attention to all these things, or if it's actually been hotter than normal.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: And like you said, you're reaching out to firms and it's probably the first time that they've been interacting with a reporter.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that's like a general trend going forward, or it's still been kind of this level the whole time?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think lawyers are, at least some of them are due to the nature of their work, they're enjoying this sort of heightened profile that maybe they wouldn't have had otherwise.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And naturally, I think that just gets people's attention.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know if there are more people paying attention to legal news or if there is just a lot happening in the last few years.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's just a lot to talk about, there's a lot to write about.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think everyone's just trying to make sense of it from their part of the world.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I guess that makes sense.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, one of the things I've always been curious about is I feel like other industries get a lot more attention than big law.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I knew way more about consulting companies and accounting companies and investment banks, but nobody really knows about any law firms unless you're a lawyer for the most part, or you're at a corporation where you're actively working across from an attorney.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think things are catching up where it is getting more interesting.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: That that's just my opinion.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: I could be in a complete bubble.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I think there are a lot of interesting storylines if people are willing to talk about it, which it seems like attorneys and firms are getting more comfortable with that kind of interaction, like you said.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: But how hard is it to actually get information out of attorneys on a day-to-day basis?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because I assume that's a huge part of your job, gaining trust of attorneys.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of us don't like talking about things, especially the newsworthy things that other people would want to hear.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: People are afraid of being blackballed or sued or fired.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: So how much of a hurdle is that for you?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: And if you could compare it to other industries that you might have worked with or talked to?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think lawyers are sort of difficult sometimes when it comes to sourcing, but understandably so.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're concerned about their clients, they're concerned about their firms.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: One of the biggest things that I had to realize at the start of all of this is that law firms are truly, truly risk-averse institutions.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they don't want to do anything that's going to jeopardize them in the future or jeopardize a client.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: It helps to understand where they're coming from because being able to empathize with that, I think is is helpful for them.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think when they feel like you understand the risks involved, I think that helps them a lot.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes my editors and I joke, like, I write all of these stories that everybody wants to read, but nobody wants to talk about.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it it's it's hard sometimes, but I think honestly, it just comes down to doing a good job, you know?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like when people see that you have a record of doing good stories, you have, you know, if they can call their friends or their colleagues and say, hey, have you spoken to this person?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: How was it?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that other person can tell them that it wasn't a nightmare talking to me and they didn't get burned by it, I think is super helpful just in terms of keeping relationships and and making new ones and forging new connections.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean, it's definitely not easy.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I think in this landscape where, you know, especially when you're covering stuff about diversity, you know, law firms were being sued.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like their fears were unfounded.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think when they feel you really understand that, I think that's when there's room to move forward.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think everyone has an interest in seeing these stories be written.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to just also explain, hey, I I also need your help to write these stories.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: I can't just, it's not like I'm writing editorial pieces.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: These are not my it's not my opinion.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a researcher, I'm not writing an essay.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: These are all things that I'm hearing from people on the ground who are at the heart of this issue or, you know, whatever is going on.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think there are a lot of similarities between the stuff that I do for recruiting and trying to learn what's going on at a firm and the ways that you do it through building relationships and having people that can vouch for you were also attorneys to be like, this person is cool and I haven't gotten burned by them and it's actually been helpful.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: What's the number one thing you would tell an attorney that you're trying to get information from in order to make them more comfortable with Sharon?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think probably the first thing is to make them more comfortable.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: We don't always have to start speaking like directly on the record.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people get nervous that anything that they utter to me will be printed and broadcasted to the world.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's just nice to just chat with someone without them feeling like they have to be editing everything they say in the moment.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's helpful for folks to just kind of speak freely.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes we just start on background and just to kind of just chat.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then I can say to them, Well, actually, you just you said something really interesting there.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to to have that on the record.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And just being transparent about what I want to quote you on, what I don't want to quote you on.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I really encourage people to ask me questions.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's the first time or the first time in a long time that they've spoken to a journalist or a reporter.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes people don't really know what that entails, right?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: So just being as transparent as as I can and letting them know where I'm coming from, what my story's really about, I think can be really helpful and just kind of breaking down people's hesitancy because understandably so, they are nervous to be to be chatting sometimes.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like when speaking from my own personal experience, when you're starting at a firm, even in the summer, they very much hammer home the confidentiality and like we're not allowed to discuss anything anywhere on social media.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: There are people have been fired for posting something on an Instagram story about a client that they weren't supposed to.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, that's a little bit more brazen, but still there's this big, I don't know how to describe it, fear around it.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think even conversations on back end, because like you said, it can be a good way to start.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: And even if you don't get a quote from it, at least in my experience, it can help with pointing you in the direction of someone who would be willing to go on the record, or just helping you understand how the mechanics of the story are even working.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: Parties are, that kind of thing.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like even if somebody isn't willing to go on record, but they have a good perspective or outline on the situation, it could still be useful.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of the reasons why I wanted to speak with you on the record is because I think there are a lot of attorneys in big law who understand the value of transparency and sharing information in a safe way, but are just a little bit too hesitant to do it.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it would be in everyone's best interest if there was a clearer way to do that, to share information safely, so that we can introduce more accountability into the workplace for big law, especially with diversity, which is a major thing.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it people tend to be I guess I feel comfortable saying this, yeah, that people tend to be a little bit more hesitant if they're uh from an underrepresented background because one, you just inherently have less power in the workplace, generally speaking, and two, it's it can be easier to single you out if you're talking about an issue that affects black attorneys and you're the only black attorney in your practice group in your city, you know what I mean?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: It just increases the risk.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I think explaining more of how everything works is hopefully beneficial for everyone.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Have you ever heard of a story where a source leaked from anything?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: Has there ever been somebody you've known or a story that you worked on where somebody was acting as a source, giving a quote on background or something, and their identity leaked?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Does that happen ever?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: That truly has not happened to me, thank God.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's like worst, you know, one of the worst fears for a reporter and also for the person whose identity has been exposed.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it's happened, but I I personally can't think of of anything.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't been close to a situation like that.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think the only time I've ever heard of one, there was this New York Times story years ago during Me Too, an associate at a law firm, and I can't remember the name of the firm.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: But she basically was working on a case that was defending, I believe it was CBS or or what's his name?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Les Moonvez or something?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: Something similar to that.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: Anyhow, they were defending this person and she ended up affirmatively leaking full documents to the New York Times.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: So and then she eventually went public.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the only situation I've seen where an identity has been revealed.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that was like a pretty brazen.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like I doubt there's a lot of situations where people are sending you full client documents via email.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, that's that's the only time I've ever heard of something like that happening.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: So you mentioned like you don't have a JD.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: What did you study?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: Did you study journalism, or was there a specific focus when you were in school?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: I have a bachelor's in journalism from the University of Missouri, and I did a minor in political science.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then I got my master's in journalism at the University of Maryland, and I specialized in investigative journalism.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: So from my perspective, it seems like a lot of legal reporters are not lawyers.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's a couple that I've seen that are attorneys, and I believe everyone I've seen who does that is either at above the law or has their own news outlet, like David Latt.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, most reporters that I see, and honestly, most of the stories that I read that are the most interesting are coming from people that aren't attorneys.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think there's a benefit from coming at a story from a perspective that isn't just like attorney brain?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's funny because I think at Bloomberg Law, we have a really great mix of attorneys and editors and reporters who were attorneys and in past lives.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't have a JD, but one of my editors does.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's great to have both of those perspectives to kind of, I think not having a JD.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: I and not sort of like I did not go to law school.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I I've never worked in a law firm.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: When I started this job, I didn't really understand the culture of the legal industry and how a law firm runs and what the vibes are like and what the expectations are and some of the the things that make this industry interesting and sort of tick.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really get that at the beginning.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you're writing about this stuff, when you don't have that sense and that awareness, you can tell.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's nice to have an editor when I'm handing in drafts, or even in the early stages when I'm thinking of an idea and someone says, actually, why don't you come at it from this angle?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Or actually, why don't you ring up this kind of person who can, you know, talk you through X, Y, Y, and Z.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes when you don't have an idea of the status quo and you're asking a lot of questions about things that seem normal to everyone else.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes you can kind of point out things that like, actually, no, this is really weird.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And even though this is quote unquote normal for y'all, like this is not actually a normal thing.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so let's dive into this even more.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes you can use that lack of awareness to your advantage.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I think at Bloomberg Law, we kind of have like the best of both worlds in terms of how we think about stories and how we frame things and how we kind of just go about our work.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like that's a really good point.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: There is a kind of bubble that exists for attorneys, at least for me and a lot of people I know, even our friends are mostly attorneys.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: So everything that will just be taken for granted, and especially culturally with firms and stuff with work-life balance and things that partners do or say, that is just a normal.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: But if you compared it to a lot of other industries, it would be a flag or something that you would definitely want to deep dive on.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think that's pretty interesting.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: I also think I don't think we're there yet, but I do think that a lot of aspects of big law news can be pitched towards non-lawyers because I do think there's enough interesting narratives, if framed properly, that an average lay person could be interested.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: But in order to do that, I think you definitely can't be too wrapped up into the ethos of law firms and being a lawyer.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: You need to know how to come at it from the perspective of somebody who isn't constantly in that world and has been forever.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's a benefit too.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how we get to that point where it's more mainstream, but I think they're I think it's a very dramatic.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've never seen suits, but I assume I think it's like based on the same thing.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um I should I should watch it, honestly.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: I gotta do that eventually.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um You're missing it.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: I I'll start it.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'll I'll get into it this summer.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'll see what I could do because recruiting is a little bit slower in parts of the summer, but yeah, that's a good time to get into it.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, but I think some of the dynamics with the firms, the cultures and how they interact, and there's like this competitiveness and people stealing partners from each other, and that's only getting more prevalent now with uh partner compensation basically being uncapped.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I always find it super interesting whenever people get pulled like that.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it's happening almost every week.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: I see something where a major player will be taking a practice group leader from another firm, and the firm that they're leaving hasn't adjusted quick enough to the new compensation model, so they're just bleeding people.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that's stuff that I find interesting.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I might just be crazy.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe maybe a normal person won't wouldn't like that.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't I don't think I'm the best source for advice on that.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: But maybe one day.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: But so I mean, last thing before closing out, just generally diversity in the legal sector, and then also on the journalism side, do you find that is there a solid representation within journalism, like the reporters do you think they come from diverse backgrounds, or is it kind of reflective of the legal industry where it's a bit lacking as well?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think journalism could always be more diverse, right?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Especially in our local hometown newsrooms.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: The more diversity you have, the more sort of perspectives you have, and you can get more interesting ideas and just a broader pool of thought to to pull from when it comes to how you're covering whatever community or industry or sector that that you're focused on.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think in in law, all my all my sources and all the folks I talk to are saying the work is far, far, far from over.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think with a second Trump administration, a lot of folks who work in DEI are sort of just trying to evaluate and safeguard their current initiatives and just trying to figure out how they can continue to do the work that they they feel is really important here.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think even with that, some of the conversations I've had with DEI directors at firms, there is this level of they really care about the work, which I totally get.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: But at the end of the day, it's also they're lit, like they make a living doing this.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's a real risk of them losing their jobs lately.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: So it's been this like weird mix of anxiety for the issues and things moving backwards overall, but also you could be out of a job.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Your firm decides not to take a stand and you know, cave to pressure and they cave to pressure from the Trump administration.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: I so I totally I sympathize with that.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's honestly just another obstacle because it's going to force people to maybe not push the envelope too much, which I get from a human perspective.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: But that's definitely concerning.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope firms hold strong as long as they can.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I have a lot of faith in that, but we'll see.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess we'll see how it plays out.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I will surely be asking firms how they're planning on adapting and adjusting and reporting on whatever that looks like.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that there's going to be a difference between what the official narrative is that you're going to be getting from firms on this versus what's actually going to be happening on the ground?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because I've seen that crop up where people are saying, yeah, on paper, we're changing the definition of things and we're not having an official thing.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: But in actuality, we're still trying to increase diversity in this way and we'll see what happens with the numbers.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: But so do you think there's going to be a difference between the talking points that people will give you when they speak with you versus the real story, quote unquote?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you get around that essentially without upsetting the source?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: Say a firm gives you a talking point that's approved by the higher ups, and then you also talk to somebody who says on background, hey, this may be what they're saying, but this is what's actually happening.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: If you report on both of those things, is the firm higher up gonna get upset with you?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: How how do you balance those relationships without pissing people off?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think I piss people off a lot.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, maybe.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: And that means you're good at your job though.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, like it is what it is.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, in terms of, you know, your first question when narratives change, like that's always a thing that's happening.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I don't talk to one person for one story.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have to talk to a bunch of people and try to make sense of what is really going on.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: The more questions you ask, the more answers you get.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe things get cleared up, maybe they don't, but we report what we know and we report what's true.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: So however we can do that, that sort of align with our ethical guidelines and responsibilities as a company and as a reporter, that's what we do.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it does piss people off.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's just kind of like par for the course, you know.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, are there firms that just don't talk to certain news outlets after being upset about a story?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: Are there firms that are just like, yeah, we won't talk to Bloomberg because they did this story that we didn't like?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm sure there have, you know, I I wouldn't, I mean, Bloomberg is a big company.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: We we publish a lot of things about a lot of companies.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sure someone has said that.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've had folks say to me, hey, don't call me again, which, you know, is tough because I, you know, personally, I don't want to make anyone upset.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Or that's that's never my my intention, but sometimes it's it happens.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a difference between getting upset and being annoyed that something is out there versus calling us and saying that what we have is wrong and we need to issue a correction or retract a statement or something.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: How often does that happen for asking for a correction?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: I would say people ask for corrections quite often, but they don't always rise to that level.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: Who who handles that like at a firm?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: Is it just a partner legit calling, or is it a firm's communications arm, or how who's actually doing that, running that for the firm?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: It honestly depends.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the times it's uh a communications team that has been hired by the law firm.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's the firm directly who reaches out and and says, hey, we don't like this.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it it just kind of depends.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: What's the interplay like with the other major legal news outlets?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: Do you guys talk?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Do you share info or go to events together?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Try to think of the other there's Reuters, there's Above the Law, and then there's Bloomberg.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Then I try to, am I missing any major ones?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: I probably am.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: Law.com.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: What's the interplay among those organizations, if if there's any?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: I still feel relatively new to the legal news landscape.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't really go to events per se.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it really depends on your beat and what you're covering.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: I imagine if you're in the courts all the time, you would see other reporters.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And generally, I think when you see reporters out, like I remember on the hill, maybe you would have one or two other colleagues from your newsroom who would be there physically with you, and you're surrounded by other reporters and you guys were all friends, and you were essentially all colleagues, even though you worked at different places.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you were looking for a member, you know, someone would say, Oh, I just saw so-and-so going down that that corner, like go after them.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's yeah, definitely like a, I would say, collegial environment, even though we all technically are competitors.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like it's similar.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, okay, there's probably more competition among recruiters, but I feel like a lot of recruiters share intel as well and try to point people in the right direction, even though we are literally competing for candidates sometimes.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: I guess that's where we can close it out.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for your time and explaining some of these things.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think the work that you're doing is really important.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, it lines up with things that I care about.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm personally invested in it.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I also know there aren't a lot of people in the space who are focused on big law diversity issues and things like that.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: So it is definitely appreciated.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we are all lucky to have your voice online and in print on these types of issues.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks for for the kind words and thanks for having me.