Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / Parenting Through Grief: The impossible state of needing while giving

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Parenting Through Grief: The impossible state of needing while giving · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This is parent Data. I'm Emily Ost. Today's podcast is
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: about grief. The holidays are a complicated time for grief.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: On the one hand, there are a time of joy
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: and celebration and tradition and fun, and on the other hand,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: if you have lost someone, whether it's just recently, whether
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: it's last year, whether it's five years ago, the memories
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: that come with those traditions can be a reminder of
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: who's not there. I lost my mom about eighteen months ago,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: and when we do Christmas, when we do presents, when
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: we do the Swedish Santa, when I make meatballs, I
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: think about her. I make the meatballs that she finally
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: gave me the recipe too, after I begged for and
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: I think about her when I make them, and how
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: I wish she were around to tell me whether I'm
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: using enough egg. And when we're having those thoughts, it's
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: hard to do all the other things. And as parents,
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  Speaker 1: we can be in a moment grieving for something that
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  Speaker 1: we've lost and also trying to give our kids the
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: holiday that they most want, the holiday that we think
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: that they deserve, and it just becomes a little overwhelming.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: I think when it is overwhelming that is when we
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  Speaker 1: want to reach for our friends, and when we want
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: to reach for people who we know will understand those feelings.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: And for me, one of those people is my guest today,
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  Speaker 1: Marissa and a Lee, who has become a friend over
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: the past few years and who has an amazing book
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: written about grief about losing her mom, about struggles with miscarriage.
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  Speaker 1: The book is called Grief Is Love and it's the
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  Speaker 1: best thing that I read after my mom passed, And
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: she and I are going to talk today about managing
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: grief and managing your own grief when you're parenting, and
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  Speaker 1: talk about the things that are hard and talk about
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: how we can find joy in those moments. Also, because
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: the memories are not just sad, they're also memories of
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  Speaker 1: the wonderful things that we had. So I hope that
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  Speaker 1: if you need this episode today it helps you, and
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: I hope if you don't need it right now, that
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: you'll save it for a time that maybe you will
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  Speaker 1: after the break. My conversation with Marissa Renee Lee. Marissa,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: I'm delighted to have you join me. Can I ask
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: you to introduce yourself?
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  Speaker 2: Wonderful, I'm so happy to be here, so thank you
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  Speaker 2: for inviting me. My name is Marissa and A Lee.
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  Speaker 2: I am a writer, speaker, and entrepreneur and author of
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  Speaker 2: the book Grief Is Love, Living with Loss.
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  Speaker 1: So we're talking today about parenting and grief, and this
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  Speaker 1: is a parent data podcast, so I like to have data.
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  Speaker 1: So I thought about what would be the good data
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  Speaker 1: point to start with, and I was thinking, you know, well,
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  Speaker 1: what share of people will experience grief while their parents.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: Then I thought one hundred percent. That's one of the
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  Speaker 1: easier analyzes. And even within I think we'll talk a
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: little bit because of our own experiences about losing a parent,
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  Speaker 1: but about half of the people in the US will
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: lose a parent before the age of fifty. People are
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  Speaker 1: having kids when they're older. For many of us, that's
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  Speaker 1: when our kids are little. The reality is that none
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  Speaker 1: of us are getting through life without grief, even if
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  Speaker 1: it is not that grief, it is something. So so
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  Speaker 1: that's the data point to start with. This conversation is
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  Speaker 1: relevant to one hundred percent of parents and also but
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: what I want to do today is talk about your work,
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  Speaker 1: talk about the book. I want to talk about some
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  Speaker 1: specific questions that I get from parents in particular, but
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  Speaker 1: I actually want to start the conversation with where we
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: are coming to this conversation from. And so I don't
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  Speaker 1: know I was going to ask you to start, but
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  Speaker 1: I would love you to talk a little bit, a
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  Speaker 1: little bit about where you come into this conversation, particularly
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  Speaker 1: around the parenting piece.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So, unfortunately I come into this conversation with more experience
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  Speaker 2: than I care to admit. I would say I first
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  Speaker 2: sort of encountered grief.
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  Speaker 3: Back when I was a kid.
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  Speaker 2: I was thirteen, and one day my mom got sick
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: and she just never got better, and it turned out
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: she had multiple sclerosis. Fast forward nine years later, I
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  Speaker 2: am graduating from college. Literally the week I was graduating
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  Speaker 2: from Harvard, I found myself in a tiny oncologist office
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  Speaker 2: in upstate New York with my parents and my godmother,
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  Speaker 2: where we learned that, in addition to MS, my mom
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  Speaker 2: also had stage four breast cancer. I spent the next
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  Speaker 2: year helping her and my father just navigate this very
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  Speaker 2: complicated health situation, and then I, you know, did the
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  Speaker 2: rational thing.
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  Speaker 3: I went to work on.
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  Speaker 2: Wall Street while also caring for my mother, and she
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  Speaker 2: passed away about two and a half years later, right
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  Speaker 2: after I turned twenty five.
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  Speaker 3: She was barely forty.
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  Speaker 2: Nine at the time, and now, as I sit a
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  Speaker 2: woman in her forties, I realized just how young she
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  Speaker 2: was when she passed. I didn't know what to do
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  Speaker 2: with all of that grief when my mom died. You know,
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  Speaker 2: I was sort of an adult, but not really, and
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  Speaker 2: I decided to just ignore it and try to will
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  Speaker 2: it away. That did not work, and so about six
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  Speaker 2: months after she passed away, I decided I was going
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  Speaker 2: to find a way to live with this pain and
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  Speaker 2: without my mom, and that someday I would.
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  Speaker 3: Write a book about it.
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  Speaker 2: Fast forward eleven years later, after dealing with infertility for
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  Speaker 2: some time with my husband, we finally found ourselves pregnant.
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  Speaker 2: We were overjoyed until we lost the pregnancy. And this
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  Speaker 2: happened a few months before I think everyone found themselves
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  Speaker 2: in a moment of grief known as the pandemic, and
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  Speaker 2: so I found myself living in the pandemic with a
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  Speaker 2: husband who was working on the front lines navigating personal
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  Speaker 2: grief and sort of global grief, and I decided I needed.
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  Speaker 3: To write about it.
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  Speaker 2: You know, all of my usual good and bad coping
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  Speaker 2: mechanisms had been taken away, and so I started writing
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  Speaker 2: and that led to the book Grief Is Love that
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  Speaker 2: came out in twenty twenty two, and along the way,
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  Speaker 2: if you can believe it, I found myself smack in
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  Speaker 2: the middle of grief again, this time as a parent.
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  Speaker 2: My husband and I were very lucky. We adopted a
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  Speaker 2: baby boy in the summer of twenty twenty one, and
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  Speaker 2: a few months after his adoption and a few weeks
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  Speaker 2: before my book on grief was set to come out,
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  Speaker 2: we learned that my husband's mother was battling stage four
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  Speaker 2: breast cancer, yes, the exact same thing that my mom
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  Speaker 2: died from, as a new mom getting ready to launch
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  Speaker 2: her first book, and so that is the space that.
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  Speaker 3: I am in right now.
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  Speaker 2: You know that my family and I have been in
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  Speaker 2: at this point for about a year and a half,
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  Speaker 2: just navigating this state of anticipatory grief with a baby
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  Speaker 2: who then became a toddler, and it's.
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  Speaker 3: Been really, really difficult. So that is my story.
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  Speaker 2: I've made a lot of mistakes, which I will share
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  Speaker 2: some of today, and I've learned a lot both things
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  Speaker 2: that are grounded in research as well as things from
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: my experiences.
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  Speaker 3: So I'm glad I'll get to share some of that
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  Speaker 3: with you all today.
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  Speaker 1: So I will tell you where I'm coming into so
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  Speaker 1: as some of the people listening to this.
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  Speaker 4: No.
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  Speaker 1: So, my mom died in June of twenty twenty two,
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  Speaker 1: and she was sick for about eighteen months after that.
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  Speaker 1: And I will say for most of that time, I
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  Speaker 1: was really like doing. I like to be doing, and
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  Speaker 1: that's my approach. I like to control the situation with
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: spreadsheets and doing. And even when things get very hard
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  Speaker 1: at the end, when there was very clear there was
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  Speaker 1: just nothing to be doing there, it almost felt like
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  Speaker 1: there was still just logistics and you know, not space
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  Speaker 1: for not space for the grief. And here is the
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  Speaker 1: moment that was the worst for me in the parenting
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  Speaker 1: grief space. So Mom had asked me before she died.
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  Speaker 1: She had assigned me the organization of a celebration of
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  Speaker 1: life for her, and she was very clear she didn't
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  Speaker 1: want a funeral. She wanted a celebration of life. She
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  Speaker 1: wanted like six months later. So we organized this and
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  Speaker 1: I brought all the kids and we had people talk
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  Speaker 1: and give the speeches, like a few people. Took four
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  Speaker 1: close friends and we're sitting there in a place called
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  Speaker 1: the New Haven Lawn Club and I just I couldn't
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  Speaker 1: keep it together. I mean, it was much harder than
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  Speaker 1: the day she died. I was just completely overwhelmed, sobbing,
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  Speaker 1: just like unable to really function. And then my eight
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  Speaker 1: year old is also sitting there and he's also crying,
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  Speaker 1: and I just could not. I could not be there
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  Speaker 1: for him. Like the person who was there for him
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  Speaker 1: was his cousin and that was sweet and wonderful, and
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  Speaker 1: but I just couldn't be there for him, and for me,
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  Speaker 1: that was really That was where I come into this
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  Speaker 1: with is the question of in the moment in which
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  Speaker 1: grief is just overwhelming, and there are some of them,
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  Speaker 1: how can we be there for our kids?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's hard, and I'll yeah, I'll comment on
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  Speaker 2: that and say, I think I think we typically conceive
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  Speaker 2: of being there for our kids as taking care of them,
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  Speaker 2: you know, like that's that's our job, right where moms.
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  Speaker 2: But I've been thinking lately, you know, it's also really
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  Speaker 2: important to be an example for our kids.
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  Speaker 3: And I think I think showing.
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  Speaker 2: A child that it's okay to fall apart and be
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  Speaker 2: a bit of a mess and have a lot of
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  Speaker 2: really big, heavy feelings about the loss of a parent.
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  Speaker 2: I think that is another way to be there for
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  Speaker 2: a child. You know, I want my son to grow
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  Speaker 2: up with different framing than what I had as a
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  Speaker 2: child around feelings and emotions and what is and isn't acceptable,
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  Speaker 2: because you know, at the end of the day, you said,
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  Speaker 2: this conversation we're having is relevant for one hundred percent
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  Speaker 2: of people.
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  Speaker 3: Because we are all going to go through this at
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  Speaker 3: some point.
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  Speaker 2: And so letting your son know like, like I have
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  Speaker 2: to deal with like my feelings and they're really big
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  Speaker 2: and overwhelming and hard, and that that is a normal,
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  Speaker 2: okay thing, I think that's important too.
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  Speaker 1: So there's something in what you said there about the
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  Speaker 1: framing which for me was the most novel important, striking
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  Speaker 1: part about your book, which is the way you talk
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  Speaker 1: about framing grief as not something that we that we
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  Speaker 1: end at the end of some stages. You know, you
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  Speaker 1: do the stages and then it's it's done. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: we wish, right that would be the tool of us.
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  Speaker 3: We would have ace that.
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  Speaker 1: I would have been so kidding, I mean so good.
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  Speaker 1: I would have won that. Unfortunately it was not there
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  Speaker 1: to win. But what is I mean, tell talk a
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  Speaker 1: little bit more about this, this sort of the way
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  Speaker 1: that you frame this, the thinking about living with it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so for me, I realized, you know, I sat
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: down to start this book twelve years after my mom
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  Speaker 2: had passed away, and it became very clear when I
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  Speaker 2: encountered that, you know, grief of pregnancy, lost moment.
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  Speaker 3: All I wanted was my mom.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I loved my husban and he's a wonderful person, YadA, YadA, YadA,
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  Speaker 2: But all I wanted was my mother. You know, I
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  Speaker 2: wanted her to comfort me. I wanted her to take
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  Speaker 2: care of me. I wanted her to console me and
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  Speaker 2: somehow make it all better, even though you know, nothing
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  Speaker 2: was going to make it better, right. And I realized
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  Speaker 2: then that you know, they're going to continue to be
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  Speaker 2: these things that happen as you and I and you
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  Speaker 2: know soon Matt, as we continue to live our lives
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  Speaker 2: that are going to make us think about our people.
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  Speaker 2: You know, it's not like you lose someone you love
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  Speaker 2: and your brain gets erased and you no longer think
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  Speaker 2: about them ever again.
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  Speaker 3: You know, we still have to be out in the
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  Speaker 3: world where there's lots of.
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  Speaker 2: Families that have moms and dads who are still alive,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: and so things are just going to come up, whether
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: it's a holiday, a birthday, you know, even an unexpected
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: positive work milestone, like you don't know what it is
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: until it happens.
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  Speaker 1: It was this moment when right after sorry to interrupt you,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: but like, no, really after maybe like two three months
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: after my mom I had when something happened at work
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: and it was such a minor thing, it was not
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: even like no one could even understand this, but it
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: is something she would have loved. And somebody called me
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: to tell me this, and and this's I was supposed
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: to be having a reaction with, like my boss who
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: called me to tell me this thing, and I was
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: supposed to be having this reaction, And all I'm thinking
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  Speaker 1: is I cannot efing believe that my mom died before
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  Speaker 1: I could tell her this, Like that is just so unfair.
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  Speaker 3: That's it. That's it, And you're gonna have those, you know.
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  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, again, I'm fifteen and a half years in at
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  Speaker 2: this point, those things are gonna keep happening, you know,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: whether it was the big moments like the day we
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: got the call about a baby who's now my son,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: or the little things like you know, my sister said
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  Speaker 2: something really ridiculous a few months ago.
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  Speaker 3: I don't even.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Remember what it is anymore, but I laughed and I
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: was just like, oh my god, like I wish my
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: mom was here right now, because that was completely that
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: was just completely nuts. I love her, but like it
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: was just I was like, wow, like did she really
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: just say that? So, yeah, because we continue to have
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: those moments. It's about learning to live with those moments.
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  Speaker 2: It's not about oh my mom died and so like
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  Speaker 2: now that's in the past and I'm over it, and
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  Speaker 2: it's just you know, whatever, it's not really a big deal.
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  Speaker 3: Like, no, that's just not how it works. It's just
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: not how it works.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: And the frame you have really at the end, I
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: mean it's in the title of the book, is that
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  Speaker 1: sort of they is the more positive version of this,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: which is the grief is love, right that you're that
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: it is because of the love that we that we
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: feel this so much, and in some ways, like trying
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: to turn it off is almost the opposite of recognizing
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: how important that was in the moments.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I spent a lot of time thinking about
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: how I wanted to define grief in this book, you know,
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: because I think it is this longer thing, and so
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: I went with, you know, grief is the repeated experience
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: of learning to live in the midst of a significant loss,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: because you'll have, like I said, these moments that you
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: can predict. You know, at some point your kids are
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: going to graduate school, you know they're going to get married.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: There going to be these like sort of more obvious
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: milestone moments where you know, oh, I'm going to be
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: thinking about when my mom and I did this or that.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: And then there are the things like that work news
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: where you were just like, oh my god, she's the
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: only person who would care about this as much as
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: I do, and like, how is she not here to
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: share this with me?
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: And so giving.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Yourself permission to have those moments throughout your life and
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: not feel bad about it and not beat yourself up
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: about it, Like that is what it looks like to
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: live a full life in the midst of a significant loss.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: So we started this with how we come to this
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: because I think in some ways that's the most important
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: grounding for how we bring it to our children. Yeah,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: but there is there are more specific questions that come
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: up with kids. The first one is just how much
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: do I tell them yes, about what's going on. But
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: more than that, how much I tell them about how
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: I feel? How much do I tell my kids I'm
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: how sad I am?
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: So I had my own instincts here, But is their data? Yes,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: I'm also gonna say, but knowing how you feel about
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: data and research, I reached out to a dear friend
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: who is a clinical psychologist at UCLA and spends a
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: lot of time helping people prepare for end of life,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: and you know, having these kinds of conversations. She also
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: is someone who lost a parent at a young age
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: and has three.
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  Speaker 3: Young children herself. And so I said, like, what, like,
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: how do how do we do this?
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: Well?
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: How much do you tell kids?
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: And so one of the big things she reminded me
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: of And I'm sure you'll agree, children are very perceptive,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: you know, I think they are more perceptive than adults
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: usually give them credit for. And she said, when we
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: aren't honest about our feelings and our emotions, and when
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: we don't give them context for what we're going through,
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: that can be scary for them, and they often will
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: start to make up their own narratives about you know
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: why mommy seems sad, or you know why mommy seems
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: more angry or you know.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: Frustrated or whatever it is than usual.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: And those stories that they tend to come up with
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: typically center themselves.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: And so when we aren't.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: Honest with our kids about our feelings, they may start
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: to run off with a narrative like, oh, you know,
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: mommy's upset that I did this thing wrong, or that
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: I didn't do well at school, you know, whatever it
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: is that has absolutely nothing to do with what you're
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: actually feeling. And so being honest with kids is really important.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: And I have to share a personal story where I
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: was honest, but I made a mistake because doctor Cleary
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: had like another piece of advice here. So I have
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: been very honest with Bennett, you know, telling him about
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: my mommy at he says Grandma Lisa, like he knows,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: like this the necklace made from some of Grandma Lisa's jewelry.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: Sorry, I realized it's.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: A podcast, so nobody saw that, but you know, he
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: has context with there's pictures in the house, like he
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: knows Grandma Lisa. Recently, a close family friend, someone who
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: I love deer and who I'd talked to Bennett about,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: died as well. And before she died. You know, she
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: had cancer. And we have a bedtime routine where he
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: says prayers for people, and you know, he was saying
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: prayers for this woman TTPT, and one day he decided
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: he wanted to say prayers for TTPT. She had died
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: that day, and so I said, you know, TTPT died.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: What I did not explain. And my son is almost too.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: I give him no context for what it means to
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: have died.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: And so now I'm.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: In this really hilarious and inappropriate space with my kid
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: where he will randomly just declare that so and so
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: has died.
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: And these are people that are very much alive. Like
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: the other day he said, Daddy died like Daddy's in
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: the kitchen. Daddy did not die like.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: And so now I'm having to kind of backtrack the
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: And it's not that I shouldn't have been honest, but
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: according to the expert, doctor Lizzie Cleary, she is amazing.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: She says, you also have to give very clear explanations
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: when you're honest, you know, and she you know, she said,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: in the case of Emily's mom, for instance, you know,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: you would say something to your kids like grandma had cancer, cancer,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: is when you know, bad cells take over good cells
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: in your body. This is where Grandma's cancer was. This
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: kind of cancer, isn't you know, it's not very common.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: It usually happens with older people. People are usually around
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: this age when they die, you know, so that they
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: have just more clarity around what is happening. And it
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: seems graphic and uncomfortable, you know, to me to go
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: into that level of detail with a child. But if
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: you don't, you know, they just they make up their
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: own stories, and we don't want them to do that.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: The advice that I got about this, which I think
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: is very much in these lines, is be honest, but
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: don't over explain. So you know, have a kind of
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: appropriate script which is gonna be different for bigger kids
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: and younger kids. Give it to them and then expect
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: some follow up. And I think one of the things
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: people often find very surprising is if you tell your
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: kids something like you know, grandma has cancer and you
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: know the doctors are good at help her, but this
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: is very serious or whatever. Often your kid will just
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: be like okay, and then like go back to their
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: iPad and and you're it's so hard not to be
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: like what I'm sorry, did you not let me repeat?
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: And then you know, but then if you you just
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: let it go, and then if you know, two days
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: later in the car, all of a sudden, they'll be like,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: by the way, can I ask some really detailed questions?
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: So kids are just processing this stuff in a little
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: bit of a different timescale. Sometimes, Yeah, they're pretty funny.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think for me, part of this was
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: some of the information giving to my kids was very
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: hard for me to do personally. Yeah, And this was
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: where I really credit my husband with being able to
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: like provide the information. I remember when we first talked
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: about my mom being sick, he was like, Okay, I'm
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: going to do it, and then he just gave them
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: this speech very much like speech you just you know,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: gave and explained that she was like and just in
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: a very matter of fact way that I would not
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: have been able to achieve. And I think some of
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: that is almost in the space of giving, in the
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: area of giving yourself space and grace and saying I
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: can't be the person who delivers this and that's okay.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: And also I will say to that point, you know,
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: one of the things I talk about a lot in
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: grief is love, and in almost every interview that I
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: give is it's really hard to grieve well without help.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: You know, everyone needs some form of either paid or
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: free help, whether it's having the spouse be the one
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: to give the speech, or you know, having the neighbor
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: pick up the kids from soccer, or going to see
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: a therapist, you know, whatever it is for.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: You, I just want to see people.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Don't try to do this all by yourself, because it's
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: basically impossible. I think it is especially impossible to do
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: completely on your own when there's also kids involved, because
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: it's just more complicated.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: And I think that there are these moments of this
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: question of just the days when you cannot do, when
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: you just cannot, you cannot be there for your kids,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: you cannot pick them up from school in which it's
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: too heavy, and that is when you need you need help.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and don't feel guilty about asking for help. I
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: always like to frame the help as you know, think
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: about how you feel when you're able to do something
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: nice for someone else in need, Like it's okay for
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: you to ask others for the same things that you
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: would be willing to do for them. So don't feel
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: bad about it, because nothing that's hard in this world
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: is ever accomplished alone. Like I don't care if we're
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: talking about grieving the loss of a parent and balancing
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: work in kids and marriage and everything else at the
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: same time, or starting a super successful business like don't
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: don't be don't be committed to this American ideology of
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: independence that is mostly a farce.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: One of the most notable things after my mom passed
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: was the number of people like you, who were people
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: that I like knew but wasn't close to, but had
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: had this experience. Who were the people who would just
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: email me and be like, hey, what do you need?
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Just I'm writing like I'm just reaching for you today.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: And I think that that is so telling for me,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: and it's something I've now tried to do. On the
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: other end that just with any of these experiences you
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: have them in the UCO. Yes, like that is in
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: fact what I needed and also something I would like
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: to give to other to other people.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because once you've been through it, you know, like
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: you don't you don't wait for someone to ask for help,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: like you just show up and say, Okay, I'm here.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: Here are the things that I'm offering and that you know,
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: to folks who are listening and are trying to figure
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: out how to port someone else through grief. Just three
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: quick tips and ways to think about it. So one
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: is just physically being present, like it is a really
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: hard thing to do, but sometimes it's nice to just
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: stop by and like be with someone when they're in it.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: It has definitely made a difference in my life. The
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: other is just like the practical things, picking the kids up,
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: dropping off a meal, taking the dog for a walk,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: helping with a work thing when you know they're overwhelmed
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: by grief. And then the third, and this is one
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: of my personal favorites, is the authentic support. And it
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: can either mean doing something for that person that helps
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: to remind them of who they are beyond this horrible
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: moment that they're living through, or doing something for them
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: or giving them something that connects them back to the
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: person that they lost. And so after our pregnancy loss,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: I have eleven roommates from college and it turned out
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: each one was assigned a month where they had to
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: send something to Matt and I and I didn't know
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: this until looking back, I was like, wow, you guys
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: did a really good job, and they're like, oh, yeah,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: there was a spreadsheet.
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: Like that was organized. I was like okay.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: And right before Christmas that year, someone sent me these
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: awesome black Santa Claus ear rings and it was peaue
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: me and also very closely tied to my relationship with
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: my mom. And so, you know, thinking of those things
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: that are just going to make someone smile or make
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: their life a little bit easier when they're in the
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: thick of grief, I think really does make a difference.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: It's amazing how in talking about the ways that people
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: showed up for us when we were grieving, the ways
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: that we almost needed to be held, the parallels between
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: that and the help I remember needing when I first
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: had a newborn.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, yes, oh my god, you're so right.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: I like, so my son showed up three weeks before
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: I was supposed to turn in Grief as Love, about
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: a month and a half before we got the call
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: about Bennett, I had decided to rewrite almost the entire book, like.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: A good fifty six percent.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: Like it was.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: It was painful, and it was due Labor day, right
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: after Labor Day, and then we got a call on
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: a Thursday that this baby had been born the day
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: before and if we wanted him, he was ours, and
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: we said yes, you know, without hesitation. We had nothing,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: by the way, like nothing I had. I had one
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: of Emily's books, cribsheet, and you know what else?
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: I had had Amazon Prime subscription, I hope.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, we'd already had that. That was we
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: had Amazon Prime. Yes, but I literally I had your book.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: And then I had a like this zip up hoodie
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: that they sold in the special White House shop that
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: was like just for employees, like inside the actual building,
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: So like a hoodie for a six to twelve month
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: old that I bought hoping for some future baby. And
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: they also sold the stuffed bo dogs, like after the
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Obama's dog.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: And that was it. Literally that was it.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: And so we got on a plane and everybody else
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: did everything for us. You know, for months after people say, oh,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: you know, why did you get that stroller? You know,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: how do you like your car seat? Or why those bottoms?
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: Like I don't know, yeah it works like I don't.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: I didn't have time to worry about any of that
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: stuff because we just were given a baby, and it
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: was crazy.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: And the whole.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Time, you know, I was in New Mom, Newborn Land,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: craziness all by ourselves.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: And I was trying to finish the book because it
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: was during COVID. Yeah it was during COVID. Yeah, like
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: it was during COVID.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: We're in another state, you know, no family, no friends,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: like just me and Matt hanging out with this baby
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: somebody just gave us, and me trying to finish Grief's
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Love at the same time. And so much of the
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: last chapters of that book were inspired by Bennett's arrival
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: and like recognizing that there's so much about birth and
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: new life that is so much like death, Like they're
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: both just these.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: Deep, transformative experiences. So yeah, it was wild.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: It's wild. So the last thing about kids that I
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: want to touch on is their own grief. So there
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: are some of these things that we can be grieving,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: like a pregnancy loss, which our kids may not know
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: anything about, and that's a particular thing of sort of
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: being in grief when your two year old has no
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: idea what happened and doesn't really understand why you can't
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: play with them. And then there are pieces, particularly with
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: older kids, where they are also experiencing their own loss,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: and it's interesting when I was eighteen, maybe twenty, my
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: grandmother died, my mother's mother, and I remember going home
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: and my mother and being very sad, and my mother
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: telling me basically like I can't be with your sadness,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: like not in a negative way, but just like I am,
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: it's too this is too much for me, I cannot
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: also take yours. And that was I think that was
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: really honest, and many other people there, so it wasn't
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: It wasn't it, but it was. It was a very
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: honest thing that I did. I do sort of. I
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: do think about it in my own in my own
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: kids things. But I worry sometimes when we do this
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: with our kids that we don't allow their own grief,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: that we the same way we're trying to push it
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: down for ourselves, also try to push it down for them.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we really need to not do that. You know,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, grief is a normal
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: part of life. You know, it's a part that none
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: of us wants to deal with like that, that I
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: know for sure. But I also haven't come up with
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: any secret recipe for avoiding it or magic pill that
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: makes it go away. And so I think it's really
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: important when kids are grieving, you know, whether it is
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: you know, like your kids grieving the loss of your mom,
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: or you know, the little grief moments that happened through
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: out childhood and adolescents when maybe they tried out for
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: a team and they didn't make it, or you know,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: something's happening with their friend group at school.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: Like those kinds of.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Things really do matter, and I think they get at
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: teaching kids to be like full human beings, Like the
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: complete experience of being human includes some grief, whether it
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: is the loss of a person or the loss of
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: something else that you hoped came to pass that just didn't,
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: and teaching kids how to deal with that and how
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: to hold compassion for themselves and also how to hold
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: two conflicting emotions, you know, giving your kids room.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: I remember you saying.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Your daughter borrowed what was your mother's jacket and like
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: found a twenty dollars bill and a lipstick in the pocket,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: and you know that in like you're laugh you know,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: because that's it's hilarious, and also like it's okay to
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: cry to you know, it's okay to hold both. And
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: so I think modeling that for our kids and encouraging
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: them to do that is really important.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: And some of that is just how we react in
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: those moments when they tell us I feeling sad about this,
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling, rather than saying, being careful not to say, well,
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: don't feel sad, or let's think about the bright side,
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: be able to say, yeah, I'm also sad about that lipsyack.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: But also, isn't it bizarre that she would constantly leave
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: twenty dollars everywhere? And there must be millions of dollars
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: in my mother's clothes, And yes, exactly, we can hold
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: them both. So the book is Grief is Love. It
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: is the book I send to everybody who is going
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: through this. I recommend to everybody. Really, it really helped me.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: And I'm really grateful to you for writing it and
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: for you and for being here with me. So thank you,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. I'm so glad. After the break
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: more parent.
• 32:09
  Speaker 6: Data, my father in law unfortunately passed away somewhat unexpectedly.
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: My husband was recently diagnosed with stage four colon cancer.
• 32:50
  Speaker 7: I am home from work today recovering from a DNC
• 32:54
  Speaker 7: procedure I had yesterday for miscarriage. We had already told
• 32:58
  Speaker 7: our two year old you know like you're going to
• 33:00
  Speaker 7: be a big brother, and perhaps, in hindsight, we should
• 33:05
  Speaker 7: have waited.
• 33:08
  Speaker 6: It's really interesting to see how frank indirect kids can
• 33:11
  Speaker 6: be about death, and so when we're sitting around with
• 33:14
  Speaker 6: my mother in law, they'll often feel the need to
• 33:17
  Speaker 6: remind Mamma that Grandpa's dead, you know, and did you
• 33:21
  Speaker 6: remember Grandpa's dead.
• 33:22
  Speaker 8: I was having a hard time as a kid understanding
• 33:25
  Speaker 8: the concept of death, as most kids do. And when
• 33:29
  Speaker 8: I was about four years old, my mom put on
• 33:33
  Speaker 8: Frosty the Snowman on the TV and then went to
• 33:36
  Speaker 8: the other room.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: And at the.
• 33:40
  Speaker 8: End of the movie, I came into the room where
• 33:43
  Speaker 8: she was hysterically sobbing, and my mom said what happened?
• 33:49
  Speaker 8: And I said, Frosty melted.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: I just was inconsolable.
• 33:55
  Speaker 8: And that was when my mom finally knew that I
• 34:00
  Speaker 8: understood loss.
• 34:02
  Speaker 6: And my daughter once wrote a song that we were
• 34:04
  Speaker 6: going to share with my mother in law that it
• 34:07
  Speaker 6: started out so sweetly. She was playing on her little
• 34:09
  Speaker 6: three string guitar and talking about everyone she loved in
• 34:12
  Speaker 6: our family, and then she took a very dramatic turn,
• 34:16
  Speaker 6: and her voice got somber and the music got somber,
• 34:19
  Speaker 6: and she started talking about how Grandpa was dead and
• 34:22
  Speaker 6: would never come back and our family would never be
• 34:25
  Speaker 6: happy again without him, which doesn't truly reflect the tone
• 34:30
  Speaker 6: that we try to keep in our family, but it
• 34:32
  Speaker 6: was interesting to see the way she was processing it.
• 34:34
  Speaker 6: We did decide not to share that song with my
• 34:37
  Speaker 6: mother in law.
• 34:39
  Speaker 5: It's always amazing to me, you know, not just the
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: way that kids process death, but the way that they
• 34:44
  Speaker 5: also act as a reprieve from death. I remember after
• 34:48
  Speaker 5: my grandma died, we were all sitting in the room
• 34:51
  Speaker 5: and the funeral home with the casket just so sad
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: and quiet, and all of a sudden we hear snoring
• 35:00
  Speaker 5: from the direction of the gasket and it was my
• 35:04
  Speaker 5: eight month old niece in her car seat, just sawing logs,
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: and it was the best moment we could have asked were.
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: And so we've just kind of taken the approach with
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: them that we don't really know when anyone's gonna die,
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: And certainly with Dad, he's sick and doctors are treating
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: him and helping him as best as they can, but
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: he could die. But the reality is any of us
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: could die. We have no idea when we're going to die,
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: but we can just enjoy each day, appreciate everything that comes.
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: I actually think there's a lot of comfort that's come
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: from this kind of viewpoint with them. So yeah, cancer
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: has made us scared, and cancer has you know, brought
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: death to the forefront for us for sure, but it's
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: also brought us a lot closer together and really given
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: us a lot of perspective on how great life is.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Parent Data is produced by Tamar Avishai with support from
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: the parent Data team and PRX. Also special thanks to
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: our house violinist, my daughter Penelope.
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: No problem Mom.
• 36:24
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  Speaker 1: about us, right penealpe Right mam, We'll see you next time.