Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Abandonment Anxiety & Avoidant Shutdowns: Q&A with Dr. Sarah Hensley | E16

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Abandonment Anxiety & Avoidant Shutdowns: Q&A with Dr. Sarah Hensley | E16 · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

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  Speaker 1: People aren't random. They're incredibly predictable. This is a show
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: about the science of human behavior, relationships, emotional healing, and
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: the hidden patterns running our lives that most of us
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: don't even realize exist. Because once you see the pattern,
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  Speaker 1: you can finally change it.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: I'm Dr.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Sarah Hensley.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: And I'm Raina Butcher.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: You think your life is random. It's not.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Dr. Sarah Hensley Show.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Hello, hello. Hey.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: How's it going?
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  Speaker 1: It's going pretty good. I'm getting ready to leave for
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  Speaker 1: a while, which I don't want to do because I
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  Speaker 1: don't like leaving my kids, but I also do get
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: excited about being able to be on different podcasts and
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: do different media appearances.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Where are you going and what are you doing? We
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: want to know.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: I'm going to Phoenix for a podcast, and then I'm
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: also going to Los Angeles for a podcast.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Well, today we're going to make this easy for you guys,
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: and you guys love these episodes. Actually, they always get
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  Speaker 2: pretty good traction where we go into Dr. Hensley's Facebook community,
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: which is free, by the way. You can go join
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: the group. I also want to just plug here, please
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  Speaker 2: download this podcast. Wherever you get your podcast, it always
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  Speaker 2: helps us if you download it first so that we
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  Speaker 2: can keep going. But today we're going to do a
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  Speaker 2: quick Q & A from the questions in the Facebook
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  Speaker 2: community and Again, please feel free to go join that
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  Speaker 2: group and ask your questions there. We always pull from
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  Speaker 2: those questions and then we're often in there, especially Coach
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  Speaker 2: Elizabeth is in there answering your questions in real time.
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  Speaker 2: So the first one, this is actually for Dr. Hensley
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  Speaker 2: and or Coach Elizabeth. I think I need specific direction
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  Speaker 2: on the exercises in the course. Can these be done
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  Speaker 2: efficiently in terms of rewiring my neurological brain while I'm driving?
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  Speaker 2: If I do it while I'm driving because I drive
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  Speaker 2: a lot for my job, is it possible for it
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  Speaker 2: to actually work? And I'm not sure if perhaps I
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  Speaker 2: need additional help as withdrawal from my partner, aka abandonment,
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  Speaker 2: or really anyone I care about is excruciatingly painful. I
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  Speaker 2: recently have been working on boundaries and removing access and
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  Speaker 2: thought I'd made progress, but only to spiral when he
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  Speaker 2: became more distant and I blew up his phone while
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  Speaker 2: feeling pain and panic. I would rather have another shoulder
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  Speaker 2: surgery than continue the pain of abandonment at this point.
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  Speaker 2: Please share your thoughts on how to stop this emotional
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  Speaker 2: physical pain cycle. It feels awful and I hold on
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  Speaker 2: tighter through these episodes wishing someone would knock me out
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  Speaker 2: cold to stop the pain.
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  Speaker 1: Oh friend, I'm so sorry. That pain is definitely excruciating
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  Speaker 1: when you can feel the pain of detachment inside of
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  Speaker 1: your nervous system that is experiencing attachment anxiety. So For
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  Speaker 1: the question about are these exercises as effective driving, they're
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  Speaker 1: not going to be as effective because they rely on
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  Speaker 1: your brain's full attention system. Both the metacognitive work and
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  Speaker 1: the soulless neurofeedback work really are effective because we're teaching
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  Speaker 1: the brain to have attention on the mind or attention
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  Speaker 1: on the body if we're talking about emotional processing. And
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  Speaker 1: you have to, when you're driving, split your attention. And
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  Speaker 1: so it's sort of like this sit, walk, run type
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  Speaker 1: of scenario. Is doing it while driving pointless? No, it's not, right?
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  Speaker 1: It's sort of like, which is more effective in calorie burn,
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  Speaker 1: running or walking the same amount of minutes? Running.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: But walking is better than sitting.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So continue to do it even while you're driving. If
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  Speaker 1: you can't write down in the thought journal, what thoughts
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  Speaker 1: come up in your head, at least you're getting the
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  Speaker 1: observing part and you can practice your protocol for reframing,
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  Speaker 1: but it's just not going to stick as sort of
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  Speaker 1: intensely as having full directed attention. And the reason that
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  Speaker 1: we write and the reason that we speak in these
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  Speaker 1: exercises is because writing and speaking also draw on more
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  Speaker 1: parts of the brain involved in attention and processing. And
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  Speaker 1: so for the needle to move in the direction as
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  Speaker 1: quickly as we need it to, we need to take
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  Speaker 1: the time out. And of course the thought work, you know,
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  Speaker 1: we're talking 30 seconds at a time. So even if
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  Speaker 1: you can do it sort of full throttle outside of
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  Speaker 1: the driving time, that's better than never doing it full throttle.
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  Speaker 2: And use your voice memo app, you know, record your
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  Speaker 2: thoughts while you're driving.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, you can do it that way. Um, And so
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  Speaker 1: whenever we can pull those attention systems of writing and
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  Speaker 1: speaking alongside the exercises, we are making a greater neurological impact.
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  Speaker 1: But not doing them at all, because you can't do
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  Speaker 1: them exactly perfectly, is also never going to move the needle.
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  Speaker 1: So we want to do what we can outside of
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  Speaker 1: the driving time and in terms of full throttle. And
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  Speaker 1: As best you can while you're driving.
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  Speaker 2: Hit on that a little bit more because I find
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  Speaker 2: that interesting. I feel like sometimes people come into these
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  Speaker 2: practices and feel like, well, if I'm not doing it perfectly,
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  Speaker 2: then it's not worth doing. And I just don't think
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  Speaker 2: that there's really such thing. So I think hitting on
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  Speaker 2: that point and saying something is better than nothing is
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  Speaker 2: going to help you. Your progress might not be as
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  Speaker 2: quick as you'd like.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I really always want people to think of this
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  Speaker 1: journey as.
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  Speaker 1: A workout journey because the nervous system is a muscle.
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  Speaker 1: So we have to treat it like a muscle. If
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  Speaker 1: you're trying to grow muscle and you're like, well, I
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  Speaker 1: would like to go to the gym five times a week,
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  Speaker 1: but this week I can only go three times. So
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  Speaker 1: it's not worth going at all because I couldn't do
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  Speaker 1: my full five times. How much sense does that make?
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  Speaker 2: Zero.
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  Speaker 1: Zero sense. Nothing. So there's this psychological effect called the
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  Speaker 1: abstinence violation effect, which is this idea that if we
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  Speaker 1: are on some kind of program or journey, if we
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  Speaker 1: mess up just a little bit, we sort of tell ourselves, well,
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  Speaker 1: it's all out the window, so I might as well
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  Speaker 1: quit or go off the rails in the other direction, right?
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  Speaker 1: It's like I fell off the wagon, so I might
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  Speaker 1: as well roll down the hill and get run over by... Right.
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  Speaker 2: Happens a lot in dieting. Right, right.
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  Speaker 1: By the horse. And that's not a good thing. It's
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  Speaker 1: a concept that comes from addiction research where well, I
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  Speaker 1: smoked one cigarette, so I might as well just smoke
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  Speaker 1: the whole pack, that's not productive. And we have to
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  Speaker 1: get away from perfectionism. We have to get in line
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  Speaker 1: with doing what we can and continually trying to improve
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  Speaker 1: time management and things that maybe inhibit us from doing
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  Speaker 1: something to the full effect instead of just deciding, well,
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  Speaker 1: I can't do it perfectly, so I might as well
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  Speaker 1: not do it at all. That comes from perfectionist wounding
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  Speaker 1: And it honestly, it's the brain's pull towards the familiar
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  Speaker 1: because doing new things is hard. It's psychologically hard. The
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  Speaker 1: nervous system is a muscle. And so that takes muscle
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  Speaker 1: capacity and muscle energy to do new things. And humans
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  Speaker 1: are cognitive misers. We're lazy. We are mentally lazy if
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  Speaker 1: it's something challenging. And so we have to, again, instead
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  Speaker 1: of just quitting altogether... do things imperfectly, and then constantly
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  Speaker 1: sort of reevaluate if there's a better way we can
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  Speaker 1: try to implement something, whether that involves better time management skills,
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  Speaker 1: creating a different kind of routine, whatever that looks like. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And controlling those thoughts around not doing it perfectly.
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  Speaker 1: That's right.
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  Speaker 2: So in terms of the second part of their question around,
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  Speaker 2: you know, the pain of abandonment, can you touch on
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  Speaker 2: that since we spent a lot of time on the
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  Speaker 2: The first question.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. The goal isn't to reduce the pain. The goal
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  Speaker 1: is to feel through it properly and process it properly
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  Speaker 1: because most emotional experiences really only last 30 to 90 seconds.
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  Speaker 1: But if you're not properly processing it, it doesn't go away.
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  Speaker 1: The processing and the psychological integration of emotion, which happens
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  Speaker 1: through the complete movement of the emotion through the body,
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  Speaker 1: is really what releases it. It doesn't mean it can't
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  Speaker 1: come back up. But generally, there's going to be quite
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  Speaker 1: a bit of time where you do feel regulated in
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  Speaker 1: between those times. When you're just sort of putting it
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  Speaker 1: in the filing cabinet and trying to band-aid it, like
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  Speaker 1: blowing up partner's phone is the band-aid, right? It's the
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  Speaker 1: attempt to get the dopamine and the serotonin from the
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  Speaker 1: chase and from potentially the reward of that connection versus
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  Speaker 1: if we really just truly full throttle felt through things,
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  Speaker 1: Using the tool you were given where we can condition
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  Speaker 1: safety along the way, we send our body safety signals
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  Speaker 1: that we're okay in experiencing this emotion. The emotion is
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  Speaker 1: eventually going to leave. Yeah. And you're going to have
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  Speaker 1: some delay where you will have some time in regulation.
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  Speaker 1: And hopefully over the course of that repeated practice, you
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  Speaker 1: get more and more windows of feeling good versus when
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  Speaker 1: we have incomplete emotional processing or no emotional processing, it
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  Speaker 1: just stays with us.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: If we're not able to suppress, like the more avoidant
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  Speaker 1: folks are able to. And suppression, it's just a different
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  Speaker 1: version of the same thing. You're not feeling anything, but
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  Speaker 1: you're not processing it either. So you have to continue
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  Speaker 1: to suppress to keep it up.
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  Speaker 2: Which is interesting because this next question that I have
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  Speaker 2: up is, what are some of the effects of suppression?
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  Speaker 1: Oh gosh, yes. When we know people who are chronic
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  Speaker 1: emotional suppressors are at higher risk of sudden death through stroke,
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  Speaker 1: cardiovascular disease, events, et cetera. We know it's correlated with
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  Speaker 1: low level depression. So people that are in a chronically
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  Speaker 1: suppressed state are generally in sort of a functional freeze
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  Speaker 1: and it is correlated to depression. So lots of flat affect, um,
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  Speaker 1: and we don't get to choose what we suppress. So
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  Speaker 1: if we're suppressing pain, we are also suppressing our access
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  Speaker 1: to joy and to our, our, our feelings for our feelings, um,
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  Speaker 1: for our partner. And so unfortunately, everything goes into that
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  Speaker 1: suppression box and life overall is going to seem a
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  Speaker 1: lot less joyous, a lot less fun to be in.
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  Speaker 2: Are those suppression effects different for men and women, or
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  Speaker 2: are they usually the same?
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  Speaker 1: Well, because attachment style is correlated with gender. So People
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  Speaker 1: with more avoidant tendencies, specifically dismissive avoidance, are more likely
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  Speaker 1: to be men. So part of this is because we
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  Speaker 1: have this cultural pressure that is given to men to
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  Speaker 1: be tough, to be stoic. And women are culturally given
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  Speaker 1: the message, it's okay to be emotional. We expect you
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  Speaker 1: to be emotional. You're supposed to be tender. You're supposed
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  Speaker 1: to be gentle, nurturing, et cetera. So men are given that.
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  Speaker 1: two completely different cultural messages and parents can oftentimes reinforce
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  Speaker 1: those cultural messages. So there is a gender correlation and
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  Speaker 1: emotional suppression is something that affects sort of every area
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  Speaker 1: of your life. It's not the same as a band-aiding strategy,
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  Speaker 1: but the end result is the same, which is emotions
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  Speaker 1: don't get processed, which means emotional energy doesn't leave, which
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  Speaker 1: means chronic dysregulation and continual sort of hair trigger nervous
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  Speaker 1: system within intimacy.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. That was going to be my, that was going
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  Speaker 2: to be my followup question. Like how does this rollover
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  Speaker 2: affect like, you know, sexual pleasure, those sorts of things.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's muted because our emotions should
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  Speaker 1: be involved in sexual pleasure. Our attention should be involved
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  Speaker 1: in sexual pleasure.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And if you're chronically dissociated, which means mind is sort
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  Speaker 1: of operating away from the body, um, then yeah, you
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  Speaker 1: can't be as tuned in. It doesn't mean you have
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  Speaker 1: complete sexual dysfunction, but it probably does mean your satisfaction
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  Speaker 1: is going to be for sure limited. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: This one's a little bit longer. It says, my husband
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  Speaker 2: of 20 years is a dismissive avoidant. In 20 years,
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  Speaker 2: we've gone to four different couples counselors, and I've gone
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  Speaker 2: to three additional counselors to help me understand how I
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: can be the best wife to him. The most recent
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: couples counselor has said, our marriage is unhealthy. She doesn't
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  Speaker 2: understand how we have stayed married this long, and she
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: doesn't think it's productive to meet together until we can
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: work on ourselves. I have been working on myself to
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: stop walking on eggshells around him, set personal boundaries, and
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: stop making everyone's life easier while putting myself last. I
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  Speaker 2: never put myself first. Seven different counselors in 17 years.
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  Speaker 2: Isn't that too much? When do I need to say
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  Speaker 2: enough is enough? I can't do this any longer. Thank
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: you in advance for your help.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Well, this is where the boundary ladder in my coaching
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  Speaker 1: program really becomes key because boundaries are always removing access,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: but we don't always necessarily take away all access right
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  Speaker 1: at the beginning. That's jumping to the end. That's like
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: an ultimatum, like do this or the relationship is completely over.
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  Speaker 1: And in cases of abuse, I would say that's appropriate.
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  Speaker 1: But in the case of maybe an anxious avoidant relationship
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  Speaker 1: where we have a progressively stronger where your access is
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  Speaker 1: more limited, more limited, more limited until there is no
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  Speaker 1: relationship left off the table. Or I should say relationship
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  Speaker 1: left on the table. So the relationship is essentially over
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  Speaker 1: because you have taken away all your access and you're
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  Speaker 1: operating just as a roommate to this person that barely
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: speaks to you. And a lot of people will go, well,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: dismissive avoidance like space. They do want their terms. It
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: hits them completely differently when it's on your terms. And
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  Speaker 1: when a boundary is.
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  Speaker 1: Surrounded by respectful and healthy rules of re-engagement. Here's what
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  Speaker 1: you have to do in order to get my access back.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Then they're not just like, oh, she's mad. She's pouting.
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  Speaker 1: She'll get over it. She doesn't really mean it. You
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  Speaker 1: have to progressively escalate them and it has to make
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: sense what your rules of re-engagement are for them to
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: get that access back. Otherwise you're just being avoidant. And
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  Speaker 1: so I would really look at what kind of boundaries
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  Speaker 1: you're holding, how you're getting them across, what your rules
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  Speaker 1: of re-engagement are to see if maybe you're unintentionally reinforcing
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  Speaker 1: the avoidance because you kind of hold a boundary and
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  Speaker 1: then get too anxious and you relinquish the boundary. And
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  Speaker 1: then what that does is it's a conditioning reward system
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  Speaker 1: to your partner where if you crack and you cave,
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  Speaker 1: they mentally, even if it's subconsciously most of the time,
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  Speaker 1: make a mental note oh, I just have to escalate
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  Speaker 1: to this level of avoidance or go this many days
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  Speaker 1: without talking. And then she cracks. So I would really
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: look at how you are holding these boundaries. And my
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: guess is if you had used my boundary ladder all
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: these years ago, you would either have a relationship that
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: was working well for you, or you would be out
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: of that relationship and and be moved on by now.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: And probably have a lot more money considering it looks
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: like you've been to lots of therapists. I'm sorry.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: That's thousands and thousands of dollars. And I am so sorry.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: And that is why I'm so frustrated with the therapeutic
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: space right now.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: I have a lot of clients that are therapists and they,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: they don't have the tool. And you know, that's not
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: to say that a therapist shouldn't get additional tools. They can. Um,
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  Speaker 1: But even the conversations I had with them, they're agreeing
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: that their profession is kind of going downhill in terms
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: of training, in terms of expertise and time spent getting skills. Again,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: we've cut these programs down so short. I have said
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: it once, I'll say it a million times. We've cut
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: them down so short that they're barely getting any training.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: And they're just not attachment focused. And we know skills
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: around attachment security do work. They're evidence-based. They're in the science.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: And a lot of clinicians are not operating from any
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: kind of scientific framework. They're operating from kind of a
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: clinical intuition framework that doesn't really skill build. Yeah.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: I feel this is just my own personal question. What
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: if attachment focus was like this baseline for therapists as
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: they're going through?
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Oh, I think we would see a lot more massive change.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: But again, are they providing just awareness in a safe,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: vulnerable space to trauma dump and emotionally dump. That is
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: what therapy has become. It's become a place where it's
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: this self-validation bubble. Therapists are too concerned with getting sued
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: or losing clients, so they're not telling you the truth.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: They're not holding you accountable. They're counting on your repeat business.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: It's a business model where if you don't get better,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: it actually benefits them because they're always having to try
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: to build a new client base if you get better.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: That's not to say that they're intentionally not trying to
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: get you better, it means that the whole system from
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: the education throughout is developed to keep people feeling good
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: as long as you're seeing the therapist or feeling okay
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: as long as you're seeing the therapist because you get
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: this relief system in place where it's like everything builds
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: up and then I dump it to my therapist and
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: then they validate me and then I feel better and
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: then I repeat the process the next week all over again.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: But I never actually fundamentally break through in changing. Maybe
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I change my perspective, but I don't necessarily change my
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: ability to execute something different. And that is the true
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: awareness outcome gap where most people come to me. I
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: know what my attachment style is. I know what the
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: problems are. I know I don't hold boundaries. I know I,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: if you know, then why aren't you doing it different? Well,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: because that lives in a different part of the brain.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: That is a nervous system execution problem, not an awareness problem.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: And this is so much of why you created your
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: program because you saw that disconnect and you wanted people
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: to have a more prescriptive way of moving forward.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Why the hybrid program exists because dysregulated people can't learn
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: and therapy can be an incredibly dysregulated space when it's
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: a couple's situation. When your partner is saying things you
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: don't like or you are saying things they don't like or...
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: The latest fight is coming up. It's a very dysregulating space.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: A dysregulated brain cannot really learn a skill.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Plus it's the difference between like $ 1, 500 and like $ 40, 000.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know some people, like I remember hearing
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: one of your clients' stories that came to you. He
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: had spent like the majority of his life in therapy.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, gosh, Matthew Perry spent $ 7 million. Wow. over
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: his adult lifespan on trying to get sober.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: And he's still overdosed tonight.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: And he's still. So there's a problem in the system.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, massive.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Massive problem. We know that. I mean, I think
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: everybody knows that. But that's what we're trying to fix, guys.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: We are really trying to fix that.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: For sure. This podcast is brought to you by the Dr.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: Sarah Hensley Relationship Coaching Services. If you're looking to achieve
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: your attachment security and make dramatic transformations in your romantic relationship,
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: I would love to help you in my practice. We
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: have a self-paced option where you can work at your
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: own pace and achieve attachment security through very prescriptive and
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: logical tools that help you regulate your nervous system, understand
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: your mindset and view your partner from an objective lens,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: as well as learn the secure behavior it takes to
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: create a lasting and loving relationship. You can also add
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: on my hybrid group, which is a set of four
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: small group calls where you can be anonymous in the group,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: and you can ask questions about what you're learning in
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: the self-paced part of the program. You literally get to
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: pick my brain, and this is a great program for
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: more avoidant attachment styles who really tend to get triggered
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: and in therapeutic settings. They can be a fly on
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: the wall, stay regulated, learn, and actually transform. So please
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: send us a message or you can always text our
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: business line at 502-427-6945. And myself or one of my
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: assistant coaches will help find the program that's right for you.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Or you can visit my website at drsarahhensley.com. That's D-O-C-T-O-R sarahhensley.com.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Okay, when an avoidant comes, ignores an issue, apparently soothes himself,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: then later just acts like nothing happened, how does the
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: other person respond when you're still escalated even more now
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: from being ignored and put off? And they seem fine.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: You can't bring it back up or else you're just
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: starting another fight. No matter what you say, it just
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: feels insane. Is this abuse?
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: It's not necessarily abuse, but it is neglect.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Neglect. And it's someone that has low capacity. It's someone
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: whose blueprint says conflict is abnormal. And if there is
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: a conflict, everybody just scatters, internalizes, waits till you feel better,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: and then we should return and act like nothing happened.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: That was what was obviously modeled to them in childhood.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: And they are bringing that blueprint into their adult relationships.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: And so where are your boundaries, right? You have to
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: think about, again, how are you reinforcing this? You allow
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: them to come back and act like nothing is wrong,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: because you're too scared of detachment. So you're settling for
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: a relationship with someone who has no capacity to repair conflict.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: That's a you problem. That is not necessarily a them
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: problem because you cannot change or control them. But what
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: you can say is, hey, I would really love to
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: talk to you like everything is normal, but I have
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: to remind you that there's still something that needs repaired
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: between us and it's blank, blank, blank. And I'm going
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: to be at the table at five o'clock and I
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: would really love for you to meet me there so
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: we can work through this effectively and get on the
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: same page. If they don't show up, you go to
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: them and you say, hey, just reminding you, blank, blank, blank,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: still has not been repaired. And if it can't be repaired,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: I'm going to have to take some time away from
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: our relationship to focus on self-regulation because the goal of
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: repair really is co-regulation between us. And so I will
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: be unavailable for blank, blank, blank. And if you would
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: like me to be available for blank, blank, blank, then
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: we're going to need to have this repair conversation. So
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: it's going to be up to you to decide. And
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: then you hold it. Whatever you take off the table,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: you do not put back on until there is repair
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: and that repair is lasting.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that communication from that partner that you just said,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: they have to be in a state of calm.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Regulation, yes.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Because your tone.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Your dysregulation, right, is part of the problem and you
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: can't control your partner's avoidant shutdowns. You cannot control that.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: You can only control how you respond to it and
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: whether you end up reinforcing it and rewarding it and
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: being so anxious that you just don't want to start
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: another fight and you just take the disrepair away.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Or your tone comes off really aggressive. Right.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: So many people do not have any idea how much
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: their tone plays a role in it. And like a
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: little bit of elevated tone, that's humanity. But oh my gosh,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: I see so many DAs in my practice that they're like,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: my wife or my husband is off the chain in
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: how they speak to me. And my nervous system just
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: cannot stop shutting down over that. It is something I
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: feel like I cannot control.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: And the other partner doesn't even like.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: No, they feel justified. If they do realize it, they
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: feel justified. They're like, no, you've made me in pain.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: And so I shouldn't have to regulate myself. You should
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: have to regulate yourself because they're viewing it as, and
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: if you wanted to, you would type of problem. And
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: it's not. A frozen nervous system cannot just snap out
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: of being frozen because you want them to. It's not.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: the way that works because you yell or demand or
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: criticize enough. That's not how it works.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: And that's why you see these people come in constantly
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: just stuck in that vicious cycle. Yes.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: And it's a hard one. Because your dismissive avoidant partner
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: has become terrified of you. Yeah. And you might say, well,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how I ask. Well, how many times
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: have you asked the right way and how many times
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: have you criticized or yelled, right? So if the balance
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: is in proportional, they're going to expect, they're going to
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: have been trained to shut down. Now, maybe they're already
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: prone to shutting down. But you have to maybe demonstrate
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: some consistency in how you approach them before they're going
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: to gain any capacity to respond to that. And that's
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: where we get really stuck with which partner should change first. Well,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: you can't control if your partner changes. So why don't
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: you be the change that you want to see? Exactly. Exactly.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Dr. Sarah, this is a tough one to figure out.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: My wife approached me today about a few items that
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: I didn't pick up at the house. She approached me
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: and said that it really bothered her that I didn't
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: and would really appreciate it if I would pick up
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: the items. I listened and said I understood and would
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: work on being better. I then thanked her for approaching
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: me like that instead of being full of contempt and
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: personally attacking me, disrespectful, like she has talked to me
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: in the past. As soon as I said that, she
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: immediately became unregulated and started yelling, telling me how I
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: shouldn't tell her any example of how she has talked
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: to me and to just apologize and then shut up.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: This is confusing to me from a counseling standpoint as
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: I have been told to express how I feel about
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: something that has been said or done. Yet when I
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: attempt anything like that, it just starts a massive argument
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: where I am told how miserable she is. The marriage
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: is a disaster. I'm a horrible husband and she is
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: done with the marriage, etc. Any thoughts on how to
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: navigate this or thoughts on what to say? Not because
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: To not cause such a triggering, unregulated outburst. Interesting that
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: this was the next question, considering that's what we just discussed.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So you have to have boundaries around that as well.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: You can say, hey, this feels disrespectful. I can't continue.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: When you're ready to speak to me with respect, not attack.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: And you have to have rules of re-engagement. So they
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: have to be specific targets. Lower your voice. Not attack
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: my character. Stop cursing. Whatever it is you need, you
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: lay those out. then I'll be willing to listen to you.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: And you absolutely are allowed to say, hey, this feels
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: really good to me. Thank you for speaking to me
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: this way. What she's doing is coercive control. You're not
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: allowed to tell me how I can and cannot speak
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: to you. Oh, yes, he can. Everybody is allowed to say,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: you can speak to me this way or you cannot
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: speak to me this way.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: And he was saying, thank you.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right? And so- You were getting what you wanted.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Wait.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so- You have a problem with the content. He
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: has a problem with how you're saying it. And everybody
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: should be allowed to be truthful, but not everybody should
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: be unhinged in their truth and cursing and attacking someone's
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: character and calling names and, you know. yelling like that's
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: unacceptable for anybody yeah and.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: The power of offense there is just really strong.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah it's just it's it's a spirit of offense i
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: mean if you want to look from a biblical standpoint
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: it is a spirit of offense right i can do
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: no wrong you have to be the wrong one in
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: order for me to be okay i can't be the
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: wrong one and that's just internalized shame and and again
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: if you want to look at it spiritually shame creates
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: a spirit of offense absolutely.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: I was with my DA for 18 years. After being
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: discarded in the most profoundly painful way, completely blindsided, I
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: found out my ex-wife had re-partnered with the opposite sex
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: within three months following separation. I understand her past traumas,
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: but how does someone grieve nearly two decades and three months?
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: The thought of intimacy makes me sick. How is she
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: not grieving us? How can someone go from saying you're
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: their soulmate and love of their life to making sexual, emotional,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: and psychological space for a new partner within months.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: It's a Band-Aid. It's a Band-Aid. It's a Band-Aid. It's
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: a way to say, it's a way, it actually is
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: proof of someone's pain. It's proof of someone's pain. Because
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: if you're in that grade of pain, you're either in
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: full-blown suppression mode, like you have compartmentalized every aspect of
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: that old relationship, and you are doing everything you can
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: to use this new relationship as a distraction, or it's
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: simply a bandaid. I'm in so much pain that I
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: need this new attention in order to function. I need
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: the dopamine and serotonin of a new partner to quell
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: these painful feelings in my body. It's just no way
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: you look at it. Is it healthy? And it's also
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: not in any way a representation that they're not in
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: pain because we can use other people as coping tools.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: I feel sorry for the new partner. They're the one
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: that is either going to attach to someone who eventually
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: finds out that they're not over you, right? Or they're
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: getting into a relationship with someone who's so dysfunctional that
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: they can suppress all the pain and the grief continuously
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: of that kind of a partner. So I don't know
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: the attachment style of your partner, but if they're more anxious,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: I would say it's a Band-Aid. If they're more avoidant,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: I would say it's a suppression distraction tool.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: It serves a purpose. He says here, I found out
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: my ex-wife had repartnered with the opposite sex. Did she
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: repartner with a woman?
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think it's clear on that question.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter either way.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the same.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure it would be more shocking and
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: surprising if... maybe feelings of maybe I could never give
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: her what she needed if she's truly attracted to the
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: same sex. And those feelings are valid. And that can
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: throw something different into the mix of, you know, exploring
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: sexuality and whatnot. But Again, a connection is a connection
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: and we have to have appropriate time to heal and
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: grieve from that and not taking appropriate time to heal
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: and grieve from that. If you've been married for 20
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: years and you're in a new relationship in three months,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: you're not appropriately grieving.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: There's no way.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: There's no way.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: There's absolutely no way. Okay, what did being discarded look
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: like in your relationship? I think this person is asking
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: the community, but what can a discard look like?
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a discard is not necessarily being broken up with.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: A discard is any behavior from your partner that says,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: you can go away and I will be okay. It
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: could be locking you out of the house, right? It
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: could be going avoidant and not contacting you for several days.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: It's any behavior that says, I am going to throw
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: you in the trash can like a piece of trash.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'll pick you up again when I feel like it.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: That's a discard. It's not okay.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: No.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: It is not okay. It is not okay. You shouldn't
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: be treated like the piece of trash you can And.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: There are different levels, I assume, of like the malice
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: behind it, you know, because I can think of.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Like these cards that.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: I experienced that were a little bit more manipulative.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: We talked about fearful avoidance and the manipulation. We talked
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: about narcissists and the definite.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: We just did a three-part series on it.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we just did a three-part series on narcissism and
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: that their manipulation is very conscious. A DA's manipulation is
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: not conscious. For the most part, it's their nervous system
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: shutting down. Does it make it okay that they don't
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: talk to you for a number of days or whatever? No,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: it does not make it okay. You shouldn't accept it.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: You should say, I have a boundary around this and
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: unless you're ready to reconnect and work through this appropriately,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: then my time and energy is going to go away.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: And after a discard, the tiered boundary system sort of
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: goes away because they sort of broke the connection first.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: So it's, put your foot back in and let's work
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: this out or I'm moving on.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: I'm going to do a couple more guys. Um, I
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: have a question that is very serious to me and
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: I hope I can explain it right. I'd love to
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: know opinions from people who have experienced it or even
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: from the experts if possible. A couple in the early
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: sixties have been dating exclusively for three years. Do not
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: live together. They've had many, many rupture and repair cycles
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: arguing and then distancing and then talking about it and
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: making up, and then starting all over again. Sometimes the
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: distancing is very short. Sometimes it's longer. Short and long ruptures,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: short and long repairs. Around and around they go. Last month,
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: they had the most severe rupture ever and almost broke up.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: Their repair talk consisted of more promises, seriousness, fear of breakup,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: and understanding of what each other want more than ever before.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: In other words, the talk matched the severity of the rupture.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Will this period of peace and harmony likely not last
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: since they have basically healed their attachment? This is an FAAA,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: but seriously don't want to break up. Does the cycle
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: always come around again or does it not sometimes? Thank
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: you very much for your help.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like attachment healing has really occurred. You're
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: still in the awareness outcome gap. You guys can talk
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: about all day long what you want, what you wish
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: it would look like when your nervous systems are calm
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: and you're missing each other and you want to get
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: back together. But what happens when the triggering moments repeat?
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Because they will. You know, you have no skill within
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: your nervous system to regulate. You don't have this metacognitive
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: skill to challenge your beliefs in the moment. You don't
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: have the mentalization abilities to challenge your assumptions around what
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: your partner's thinking in the moment. All of those are
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: skills and they require strategic and strict repetitive practice to
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: wire in to your nervous system. And unless you're doing that,
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: all the talking in the world doesn't make a difference.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: That's why in conflict resolution in my coaching programs, aside
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: from those capacity building skills, we talk about structured conflict
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: resolution that has active solutions versus passive solutions. So what's
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: been described in this question is a lot of passive solutions.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'll do better. I'm sorry, I'll do better.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: Never works.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Because we're operating subconsciously. Our nervous systems are playing out
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: these predictable patterns. It's a capacity issue. I'm sorry, I'll
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: do better. Genuinely, most of the time, never works. It
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: makes you feel better in the moment, but then it
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: just leads to more hurt and disappointment because the people
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: don't follow through. And so active solutions involve putting in
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: stopgaps to whatever the problem is. Like say, for example,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: I am on my phone and I become deaf when
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: I'm on my phone and my partner tries to talk
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: to me. and I ignore my partner because I don't
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: hear it because I'm on the phone. I can say,
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'll do better a million times, but that's
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: just not how my brain works. My brain shuts off
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: surrounding sound when I'm concentrating on something. And so then
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how many times I say, I'm sorry,
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: I'm going to do better. I'm going to keep repeating
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: the same pattern. So an active solution might be like, hey,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: if I'm on my phone and you need my attention,
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: can you put your hand on me? That breaks that
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: sort of, lock in attention, right? Like drowning out all sound.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: That's an active solution. We can see it happened or
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: it didn't happen. And it's a stop gap. And I
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: teach my clients a lot of these types of active
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: solutions for their problem versus, and I'm sorry, I'll try
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: better next time.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Your nervous system is already taxed. You're operating mostly in
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: the subconscious. You're just going to keep repeating.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Right. And it doesn't matter if the rupture was the
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: most serious one you had. It doesn't matter. And then
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: the repair was the best repair you ever had.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. I have no doubt you guys were
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: genuinely sincere in that repair. Oh, of course. But I
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: have all the doubt in the world that your nervous
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: systems have fundamentally changed in order to execute something different
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: next time.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: And that's the key.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: I think I have one more. Okay. I have a
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: question about co-parenting apps, which... I don't know if you'll
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: have any insight on this, but we'll try. My best
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: friend's currently going through a divorce and custody scheduling is
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: quickly escalating into an issue. On the podcast, Dr. Sarah
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: often recommends using the apps instead of text messaging because
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: messages on the apps tend to hold up better in court.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: Why is that? I'm just wondering what makes them more
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: valid if they're not court ordered.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, because you can give a judge access to that
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: app easily so they can go see the original messages
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: and they can't be um they can't be tampered with right.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: That's what i was gonna say i don't think on
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: the on the apps i don't think like that the
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: other person can like go in and delete anything you
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: can't yeah.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: You can't go in and delete it you can't go
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: in like you can't just the court won't just accept
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: screenshots right right they're made for a third party to
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: be able to log in and view with no manipulation
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: no manipulation right whereas a text you know i can
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: delete you have to get like how can you like
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: you'd have to get like metadata from AT & T
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: and that would be expensive and time consuming and you
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: would need a court order. And whereas an app, it's
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: like you're agreeing in the terms and conditions that a
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: third party can log in and see your messaging. And
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: so it just, it's an accountability thing and it's just,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: there's- And.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: It's a money saving thing at the end of the day.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Save the money, baby.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And it just gives you protection because the other
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: party may think, Again, on a phone call, they can
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: say bad things. In a text message, they can say, well,
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: that's AI. You know, the judge isn't going to collect
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: your phones and take them into evidence. It's just a
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: way that a third party can view it without manipulation.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: That's why I recommend it.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think, too, it's just for like your
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: own state of mind, like having this separated tool. That's
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: where we communicate. That's where it all lives.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's where it all lives.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Everything that's stressful about this all lives in that app.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: Which is everything, because everything about divorce is stressful. We
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: were talking about this earlier today, actually. We were talking about,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: we were trying to figure out the average cost of
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: divorce in America. We were pulling some data. Yeah, which is,
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: I forgot what you said this morning.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: So a one-time quick divorce where everybody agrees on everything
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: and there's literally no contention, like no mediation, no nothing.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: is about $ 11, 000. You disagree on one thing, it goes
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: up from there. And then people are looking at like, well,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: when the divorce is final, like when we're no longer
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: legally married. But if you actually look at like a
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: decade of costs, it's somewhere between 50 to $ 250, 000 per person.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: That is the average cost of what it costs you
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: in court fees over the next decade. Because you think
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: that you're gonna agree You rarely agree. And as a
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: child ages, their needs get incredibly different as they age.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: What works for you with your five-year-old in sharing time
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: is not going to work when that child is 13.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: And that child may decide, I want to live with
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: one parent. And you don't want to give up the
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: time with that child. And so you have to go
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: tell a judge, I think it's best that the child
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: continues to have time with both parents. Or- you know
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: their sports you know is kind of all over the
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: place or you know their educational needs change and who's
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: going to pay for that maybe your child gets diagnosed
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: with a learning disability how are those costs going to
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: be split it is a never ending nightmare through the
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: court system it definitely is and So spending a couple
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars to repair your marriage could save you $ 250, 000
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: over your child's lifetime in court fees or extra expenses
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: where you and your partner can't co-parent well. So you're
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: buying things on your time. They're buying things on their
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: own time. So instead of really splitting costs, everybody's paying
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: full costs for everything. Just trust me. As someone who
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: had to do their divorce twice- And has been through another,
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: you know, has been privy to other custody battles. It's
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: not worth it.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: No, it's so expensive. And that's really what we're trying
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: to do here, guys, is save people that heartache and
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: the financial distress that it causes to a family. That's
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: our whole mission here at obviously the Dr. Sarah Hensley Show,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: but obviously the Dr. Sarah Hensley relationship coaching services. We
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: always hope that you find these episodes helpful when we
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: bring in your questions and Dr. Hensley answers them in
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: real time. She has no prior knowledge of what these
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: questions are going to be. She's just doing them on
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: the fly. Yep. So rolling with the punches. Just rolling
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: with the punches, baby. So I, well, I think it's
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: a testament to how, you know, I think it's great
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: to do these Q and A's because it really shows
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: how your coaching facilitation really looks to you and some
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: of the tools that you present to people. And so
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: if you are, I hope you're not getting a divorce.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: I pray that for everyone. That's so hard. It's so painful.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: Try everything you can before you get there.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes they're needed.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it is the best decision. But I think the
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: most painful thing you can go through is doing a
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: divorce and then wondering, could I have done more to
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: save it? Regret is a very nasty, painful beast. And
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: so if you're going to get a divorce, might as
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: well know you've tried absolutely everything under the sun to
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: save the marriage instead of looking back after paying all
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: this money and going, but could I have done things
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: differently that would have made an impact in saving the marriage?
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I just keep thinking about what the second
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: question that I asked you about the lady who'd been
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: to seven different therapists and her husband had been to
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: multiple therapists. Maybe in that circumstance, try something new. And
• 42:07
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• 42:11
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• 42:15
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• 42:20
  Speaker 2: thank you always for tuning in. Please download this episode.
• 42:23
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• 42:28
  Speaker 2: free Facebook group. Ask your questions there. We do these
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: once a month. Please continue to tune in. Like, subscribe, follow, download.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: And until next time, peace, love, and perspective.