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Transcript

Hair Is Political: Meet the Lawmaker Putting Hair on the Agenda · We Are Spiraling

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, some policy is big, like healthcare, and some policy is important to the everyday New Yorker or American.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: For me, hair is important.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's one of my policy uh levers.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: I have a lot of people who come up to me and say, thank you not only for passing the policy, but also just being your authentic self with your hair.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is Priya Anand, and we are spiraling.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: In this show, we talk about curly hair to learn more about our culture.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: From our personal identity to how the world sees us.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Hair has always been political.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: In ancient Babylon, the code of Hammurabi denoted rules around hair and haircutting for enslaved people.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Head shaving was used as a form of punishment.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: In ancient Greece, someone's hairstyle was an indicator of their social standing.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Fast forward a lot to Louisiana in the late 1700s.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: The Tinyan laws required women of color, even free women, to cover their hair with head wraps.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was a way of preventing them from adorning their hair with feathers and jewelry.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: You see, it's never just about hair.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: This year, a new law takes effect in New York State requiring cosmetology schools to train students on textured hair.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: You might wonder why we need this kind of law, which is why I wanted to share examples on how long we've had laws that use hair as a way to exert control over apps.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: In a previous episode called Why Most Stylists Never Learn to Cut Curly Hair, we talked about how cosmetology licensing in schools started as a way to make sure salons were sanitary.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: People were getting ringworm and skin infections at barbershops.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: States began passing regulations to make sure the public was safe from disease.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: We discussed the path to getting New York law passed, was actually changing cosmetology programs and future laws that might protect our hair and bodies with the person who made it happen.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, if I have had that experience.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: California was the first state to pass the Crown Act in 2019.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Crown stands for creating a respectful and open world for natural hair.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: It outlaws race-based hair discrimination.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever I'm working on a new episode for the show, it makes me realize just how interconnected each of these stories are.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Our last episode was about why so many people are secretly curly at the office, and since then, I've heard even more stories.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: The other day, one woman told me that when she was 16, her boss at Aero Postel told her not to come into work with her natural hair.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: She was 16, and it was an Aeropostel store.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'll let that speak for itself.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Assemblywoman Solage says her work helping to pass the Crown Act in New York and her own experience made her realize that hair is a worthy area of attention as a policymaker.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: After the Crown Act, during that process, we were able to meet with many cosmetologists and many individuals in the field, and they were describing to me that technically this is a niche topic in cosmetology school.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so that was the impetus for us to present this legislation that would require them to learn it.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to say that two-thirds of people, there is a statistic, two-thirds of people in the world have so-called textured hair.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So why are we calling it that instead of the reverse, right?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we othering ourselves as the majority here?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it's funny, when we were passing the bill in the legislature, my council was just enthusiastic about it because her daughter had curly hair, and she told me about the stories of going into different salons and them them frying her hair or giving her lopsided haircuts.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: And um, it was just nice to see that you know this is gonna be an impactful piece of legislation because anyone can now walk into a salon and at least that person behind the chair understands their hair and and has learned about their hair.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: At least at some baseline level, yeah.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't trust going to any salon though.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's a caveat A.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: Playing with fire.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: When I first came into politics, I used to straighten my hair because that's how you know elected official women present in suit dresses and with straightened hair.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so after I won my election, I I came into uh my office and um I had an advisor there, and I I came into office with my hair natural, curly.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: She was like, Oh, well, you can't do that.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's not professional.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that really stuck in my head.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so for so long, and if you see pictures of me a long time ago, um when I first came into office, I would always straighten my hair because, you know, an advisor said, Hey, you have to have straighten hair.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's a professional way of looking.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it took me, even as an adult, so long to get that out of my mind that, you know, I'm professional as is.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: 10 years.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: It took me 10 years to stop straightening my hair.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: I've been in politics, I've been an assembly member for this my 15th year.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so it took a long time for me to like just consciously realize that I can do this and you know, I shouldn't uh succumb to the societal uh norms, as they say, that I can embrace my natural hair.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's something that I encourage other elected women to do.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope that, you know, in every profession, it's from the C-suite on down, we should embrace people's natural hair.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: The Assemblywoman is far from alone.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who just won re-election in Florida, shared for the first time on the show that she's dealt with the same issue her entire career.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: She's held various elected positions since the 90s.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: When I first thought about running for the state House of Representatives, I was 25 years old, and every older woman that I met with for advice counseled me that I had to do something about my hair.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: There has been so much pressure on me through my whole career.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's episode three of this podcast, The Politics of Curly Hair.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Find it on your feed for the whole thing.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: The Congresswoman also told me, I think a lot of women pick another aspect of their looks and people zero in on it.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: You and I have a very obvious trait that people can make fun of or highlight.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to let it roll off.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: The Assemblywoman agrees with us.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: In this space and place in politics, people tell you a lot of things.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: I've even had people tell me I shouldn't have children because I won't be deemed professional when I first came into politics.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: That, you know, uh focus on your career and then um have kids after.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't listen to that.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, shortly after I'm I was uh, you know, elected, I think uh in three years, I I had my first child and I've had three since.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I tell you, whether I have curly hair or I'm barefoot and pregnant, my career has has always been amazing and it hasn't hindered my career.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: With women, it really is a damned if you do, damned if you don't in any direction.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because I bet if you didn't have children, that would be used against you, right, for not supporting other mothers in some way.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: And like my children have uh perpetuated so much policy.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like being a mother has allowed me to put forth a lot of policy that helps families and particularly mothers, especially in the maternal mortality crisis that exists today.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: And even in my hair, when I decided to stop straightening my hair, I now have passed several pieces of legislation around hair.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: We need to also further the legislation because there's no really continuing education for people who do hair for cosmetologists.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so we wanted to make sure in the future that we capture everyone.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so we're looking to draft legislation to create a continuing education for cosmetologists.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: And we're also thinking about just making sure that they learn about curly hair as a large component of that.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Many stylists have described to me the process of investing and reinvesting and reinvesting in ongoing education.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that's incredible to hear that you're planning on putting this into place because I imagine there are also potentially there might potentially be safety things that come up, right?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh regarding certain chemicals that every stylist should know, whether or not they went to cosmetology school three years ago or five years ago or 10 years ago.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, licensed typically, like in New York State, have continuing education.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so we feel that doing it with uh cosmetologists, it makes sense.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's uh a field where you are dealing directly with someone's skin and scalp.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so having that continual education, being educated on the latest research and information will ensure that we're providing a safe environment for New Yorkers when they go to the salon chair.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: The training in New York State, you there's an existing 300-hour and a thousand-hour licensing curriculum for folks to take.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: And going into the the different schools and and interacting with folks, my observation was that most of the models were, whether it's like the fake models, you know, the fake heads or the actual like people, were individuals with straight hair.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: They had very little, I think I saw maybe one or two people with textured or you know, textured curly hair.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that's just my observation.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like obviously, I haven't gone through the program.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not a cosmetologist, but observing it, it seemed that there was a lot of focus on straight hair and how do you treat straight hair.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, you know, we made sure that with this law we added to the curricula and not not so much adding more hours or costs, but just making a requirement so that people can learn.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm happy to report I went to a cosmetology school recently, and um the students are actually excited to to learn about you know cosmetology and textured hair.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Did you get any pushback from the cosmetology schools themselves or any explanation from them when you were looking to pass this law?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: What was their response?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: What was the industry response?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: So the the schools were like, oh, we do, they you know, they were backpedaling and they said, Oh, we do teach it, but they complied.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: They they weren't any of resistance.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: But there's also um a group of folks who believe that in New York State we have a natural hair license that's strictly just for natural hair.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: And those folks believe that we should be enhancing and focusing on that curriculum.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: People can learn about it, you know, all cosmetologists can learn about it, but we should have a specialty because the hair is so unique.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I agree, I I support what they do, but I also think that every salon should be accessible to every person.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so my belief is that everyone should have the opportunity to learn about curly texture hair.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: And if they want to specialize, they could do so with that special license.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so no one is walking into a salon themselves or with their child and walking out with a terrible dehumanizing experience.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not just about the hair, it's also about the language that's used.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just recently in in New York State, someone sued a major beauty brand, a company that I you can say Ulta, sued Ulta because um when their child went to the salon, the individual said such dehumanizing words to the person as if their hair was of a lower quality and a lower sense.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, it's not just a physical, but it's an emotional and spiritual trauma that people are going to when they they go to a salon that doesn't treat their hair.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think that's just wrong.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: And in New York State, we're such a diverse state.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: We're very welcoming, and that we want to make sure that, you know, wherever you go, you are welcomed.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: A quick note from me.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited to share with you that my curly and wavy hair care line Myura launches in October.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you're interested in hearing more about the launch, join the wait list at MyuraBeauty.com.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's M-A-Y-U-R-A-Beauty.com.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Back to the show.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: When did you first decide I'm in office, I am representing my people, I think legislation related to hair and protections related to hair, that's something I want to pursue.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: There were a lot of questions around why this was important, and also qu questions of whether like this actually was an issue.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is this an issue?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Is this a problem?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I had to describe to people that it was.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it was helpful because uh me having natural hair is almost like I became an ambassador.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I was able to explain and discuss the bill to people.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, you know, it's a lot of what we do as policymakers is education.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: You'll you'll be surprised.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's not that people are against a particular issue, they are just not educated on the uh the nuances of policy and uh why, you know, we need to pass laws to tighten this or to support that.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's becoming more of an issue as we get more diversity in the state and also have more interracial children.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've seen countless videos and interact with countless people who, you know, their daughter has uh textured hair and they want to know how to how to how to make it the best it could be.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's loving and it's beautiful to see people who want to learn about hair.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm of the belief that pretending something isn't an issue doesn't mean it's not an issue.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or not talking about something doesn't mean it's not an issue.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: It just means we're not willing to engage with it in a serious way.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I love about policy.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, some policy is big, like healthcare, and some policy is important to the everyday policy uh policymaker or to the everyday New Yorker or American.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: And you can't just minimize something because you didn't have that experience.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: It could be everything to someone.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, for me, hair is important.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's one of my policy uh levers.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, for you, it's it's part of your career.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: So to me, some of that just like when when people doubt you, you you just can't listen to them because they just don't understand your experience, and you just gotta, you know, educate those who are open.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: I have a lot of people who come up to me and say, Thank you, not only for passing the policy, but also just being your authentic self with your hair.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I think I had the thought of straightening my hair the other day.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, no, I can't do it because I just I just I love my curly hair now.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so happy um with it.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: Even when I get braided, I I have curly hair, I have curly hair.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, like for me, I I think curly hair is just uh beautiful, it's natural, it's spiritual, and we need to do more to protect it and to educate people on their hair.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we have another bill in the legislature that's held by one of my colleagues that would put labels on relaxers to let people know that they're dev duh, you know, dangerous chemicals in there.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, that has received opposition because they feel that we're being too sensitive when it comes to the chemicals that that they're putting on.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: They're saying that, you know, people know that these are harsh chemicals.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think people know that there's research that says some of these chemicals cause cancer or potentially cause cancer.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: So they're the these companies are lobbying, not surprisingly, against this bill.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Correct, yeah, because they don't want people to be scared by uh, you know, a label that says that these these chemicals they give cancer.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they definitely give cancer.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you if you put something on your scalp and it's burning, yeah, that is not good for you.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: So uh let me get sued.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, it it was uh tough.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, there are some bills we get a lot of support from industry and there's some bills that we don't.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so that was a bill that we didn't get a lot of support on, but we passed it anyway because we felt like it was the right thing to do.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what's incredible is that amount of pushback for the labels versus we're not even talking right now about outlawing those kinds of products, right?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: That are so obviously harmful to health.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: I I would agree with you.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the ideal world and uh my colleague, another colleague, does have a bill to ban of relaxers in New York State.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I wish we can get that done, but folks are very apprehensive about taking this off the market because they feel that it will proliferate a black market of individuals getting it.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: So what will happen is that people will go underground and get relaxers or go from another state and bring it to this to here and and do it illegally.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: I I get that, but I think it's a good first step in labeling so that people are educated on it.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: What role has hair played in your life and your identity?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, as a young girl, my parents were big into, and especially my mother was big into doing my hair.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so for me, my hair is my identity.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: Typically, you know, today it's braided, but typically I have it out curly.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: I've always had natural hair.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when I look back in my life and think about some of the pivotal moments, uh, one of the most pivotal moments I've had was like when I my hair first got relaxed and I, you know, straightened my hair.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: How old were you when your hair was first relaxed?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: It was third grade and it was for picture day.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: The typical, the typical, yeah, the typical time when people would like do their hair for picture day.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: My mom typically straightened my hair with a hot comb.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, you know, it was like um either a communion or confirmation or a big family event, you know, and my mom wanted me to have straight hair, she would, you know, sit me in front of the gas uh stove and you know, straighten my hair with a hot comb.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh this time she said, Hey, let's go get it relaxed.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, I got my hair relaxed and it was amazing.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I've done it a couple of times since.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: When I was in high school, I used to dye my hair.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my hair has always been my expression, so I've done so much with my hair.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: When she started hot combing your hair, how old were you when that started happening?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, we we did it when we were younger.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: I have very long curly hair.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I've had so many different hairstyles.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: So my mom would hot comb my hair.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: When I went to high school, I would dye my hair.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: In college, I actually stopped using all chemicals because I realized that chemicals were were not good uh for the health and well-being of self.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so um I made a decision when I went to college to stop using relaxers or dyes on my hair and try to tend towards natural chemicals or chemicals that are not so harmful.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's when I truly learn about my hair.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of funny, you know, as a black woman, they typically don't teach you how to maintain your own hair.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so um I learned in college that, you know, I could just, you know, do wash and goes, I could do twist outs, you know, put uh combs like the roller combs in my hair, and I could just embrace my hair as it comes out of my head.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: And um that's you know, when I I started, you know, really realizing that, you know, I am beautiful as is.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: I don't need to conform to a lot of the standards that exist in our society.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: It seems to be this ingrained sort of lesson little girls are taught very early on that this is what you do, this is the way you hot comb, you relax, you straighten, you flat iron.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that is the system that we live in and that you live in for your hair.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it's something that has not only influenced and helped black women, but a lot of people have curly hair.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Curly hair is very prominent in this world.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've gotten so much uh support and enthusiasm about that law we passed.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: I have two girls and they have coily hair.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I kept doing their hair, and and just for me, I was like, wait, why am I straightening my hair?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: But then I'm encouraging my daughters to love their hair.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: And they always have a conversation like, mommy, you know, like uh, I want to straighten my hair.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: Even at five-year-olds, seven-year-olds, they they're saying, Hey, I want straight hair because my friend has straight hair.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so that really made me realize that I need to just present myself as is.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: And especially as uh elected women, there is a certain cookie-cutter way that we have to look like and we need to break that mold.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: And you're Haitian, right?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Haitian, yeah.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: What, if any influence has that had?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Are your parents immigrants by chance?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, my parents immigrated here in the 70s.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: Our hair is very important in the Haitian culture, and what I find that the culture in Haiti is different than the culture when you immigrate to New York or to America.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it was more likely that I see that me and my friends would have our hair straightened or, you know, put back and and presented in a certain way in order to conform to society.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting, like when I was uh younger, it was a time where and it seems like time is repeating, where it wasn't popular to be Haitian.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, during the 90s there was an accusation in the 80s, there's accusation that Haitian people have AIDS.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when we went to school, we couldn't speak our native tongue because they would put us in special English language programs even though we spoke well.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so it, you know, it's always tough to been to be Haitian.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's always nuances and and and all this um animosity towards us.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, you know, my mom was very conscious of that.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I think she was uh one to just ensure that, you know, our hair was pulled back and that, you know, um if we were going to fancy events, we'd we'd have our hair done.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think that was more of a protection for her and and her children.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I'm not speaking negatively, I would do the same if you lived in a in a in an era or time where being just Haitian was deemed something, you know, bad.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it seems like, as I said before, time repeats itself.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, in the Haitian community, we're having a lot of challenges and um a lot of nasty things said about us.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, it's it's something that we've done as a protective mechanism to present our hair in a a certain way.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so we would have buns, we'd have it braided, like back, like I said, straightened.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: But uh rarely did I ever see someone of Haitian descent embrace their curly hair.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I in my mind can't recall just having seen someone when I was younger with curly hair.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Assimilation was important for safety.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, in Haiti, hair is uh a communal activity.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there are frequent times where um girls and mothers come and they do the hair together, you know, they put bows in it.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: There are so many pictures and images of uh young girls going to s to school um where they have their hair, you know, in certain styles and they have the beautiful bows in it.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's very communal.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very uh healing and they don't really in the Haiti push, like back in the you know, the 70s or 80s, even 90s, they never really pushed chemical straightening.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: It was almost like you just, you know, have protective styles for your hair.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's only in recent history where people are now um either straightening their hair or or putting extensions uh or just manipulating their hair to put in a wig.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: One of my daughters has coily hair and then my other daughter has like loose curly waves.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, she had an experience where we went to like a salon around the corner and they cut her hair lopsided, and she was so upset.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: She's uh she was seven at the time.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: I want it to be different than the experience I had when I was younger, and I I want them to be able to love their hair as is and uh be proud of it and not have to go into an industry or job and manipulate their hair just so they can fit into a mold, that they could do whatever they want.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because mommy's a state assembly member in politics, and you know, she doesn't have to straighten her hair for that.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: This episode touched on at least four different topics we've dived into in the past.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Why most stylists never learn to cut curly hair.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: For black women, hair has always been the story, the politics of curly hair, and of course, why are so many people secretly curly?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Find them on your feed if you haven't heard them yet.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: And if you enjoyed this episode, please follow us in your podcasting app.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: I know the algorithm will bring you our episodes either way, but it actually really does help us a lot as a new show.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And hang out with us on Instagram and TikTok.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: We're at We Are Spiraling Everywhere.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: We Are Spiraling is hosted by Myura and produced by Citizens of Sound, the music by Lap Gun.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to you next time.