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Back to the Gospel: Repentance that Heals Systems · The Church Renewal Podcast

0:03
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast.
0:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm Matt.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm Jeremy.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: While it's true that family systems theory can reveal dysfunction, only the gospel offers real healing.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: In today's episode, Jeremy and Matt explore repentance as the antidote to blame shifting, scapegoating, and image management.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: Through scripture and pastoral reflection, they show how gospel-centered confession restores leaders, congregations, and systems to health.
0:30
SPEAKER_02: We are back again, and today we're going to be talking specifically about kind of get to the nut here at the beginning and then work backwards.
0:37
SPEAKER_02: Gospel repentance is the only way to actually fix a dysfunctional system.
0:44
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, we're focusing primarily on the church.
0:47
SPEAKER_02: But before Matt, we jump into sort of questions.
0:50
SPEAKER_02: We haven't really talked about scapegoating or flame shifting.
0:57
SPEAKER_02: So let's start here.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: In some book in the Old Testament, I don't remember which one, there was a story about this guy and his girlfriend or wife or something, and they had a really great relationship and they went out to eat, and she ordered the wrong meal, and then he was like, That's okay, I'll help you finish it.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: And then the cook came out and was like, What, that wasn't for you, and now you're all gonna go to hell.
1:21
SPEAKER_02: I think it's roughly paraphrased.
1:23
SPEAKER_02: Is that it's roughly what it was, right?
1:29
SPEAKER_02: Rough.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: That's the word I would give that.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: Yes, rough.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: So God comes to Adam and Eve, and he goes to Adam first because Adam is the leader, he's the head, he is the responsible one here.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: He's the one that God's gonna go to and he's going to ask the counter first.
1:48
SPEAKER_02: And Adam's response, the way that my pastor told this to me back in chapel when I was in like fourth grade, was he used the terms blame shifting and justifying.
1:56
SPEAKER_02: I didn't do it, and the reason this happened was because, and if you just look, you'll see I'm innocent here, I'm pure, it's not my fault, it's her.
2:04
SPEAKER_02: It's their fault.
2:06
SPEAKER_02: Adam points to God first, and he says, I'm sorry, he points to the woman, he says, the woman here that you gave me, by the way, I'm just and I've prayed this as a husband.
2:15
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, Lord, the wife that you gave me is driving me crazy.
2:19
SPEAKER_02: And I and I blame her, and I blame you because you're omnipotent and omniscient, and you made a mistake here, and I just pointing this out because it doesn't seem fair to not be honest with you.
2:31
SPEAKER_02: You've always been honest with me.
2:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm moving this.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: I'm moving my chair now, then so the lightning doesn't get it.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna squish back just a little bit.
2:42
SPEAKER_02: You don't want to get scorched.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: I'm being silly.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: It's not because this is silly.
2:48
SPEAKER_02: It's because uh one of the things that we didn't talk about in the last episode is that a part of what it means to be a non-anxious presence is actually to lean into the difficult things with playfulness.
2:59
SPEAKER_02: And it's one of the things I appreciate about this format here and being able to do this with you is there is playfulness even in the midst of, I mean, you and I have discussed very, very difficult things.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
3:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, on mic and off mic.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
3:10
SPEAKER_02: And yet there is a room because God is the God who made us, and he's a God of love who exists in a relationship, that we can talk about this in a playful way because he delights in us.
3:22
SPEAKER_02: So here we are in the garden, and Adam's response to God is it's not my fault, it's her fault.
3:28
SPEAKER_02: Kill her.
3:29
SPEAKER_02: Also, since it's your fault, maybe you should kill yourself.
3:33
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's that's the implication here.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the woman and she skips she skips blame over to the serpents, and then you know, just keeps going on and on and on with nobody taking responsibility.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: No one taking responsibility.
3:44
SPEAKER_02: And I have often wondered this what would have happened if Adam at that point had responded the way that David did when Nathan came to him and said, You're right.
3:54
SPEAKER_02: That's my fault.
3:56
SPEAKER_02: I deserve the punishment.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: Let that come to me.
4:00
SPEAKER_02: You rightly said if we do this, we will surely die.
4:03
SPEAKER_02: She was under me, I let her do it, it was my fault.
4:06
SPEAKER_02: It was my job to protect her, it was my job to guard the garden.
4:09
SPEAKER_02: I didn't guard the garden, I didn't guard my wife.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: Let your judgment fall on me.
4:15
SPEAKER_02: I don't know how to do it.
4:16
SPEAKER_02: That's essentially what Jesus did, right?
4:17
SPEAKER_02: That's exactly what he did.
4:19
SPEAKER_02: Except he didn't not guard the garden.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: Right.
4:23
SPEAKER_02: He didn't not guard his body.
4:25
SPEAKER_02: Ended up ended up Satan for 40 days in the wilderness, right?
4:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:30
SPEAKER_02: So here I am as um a dude in my mid-40s with plenty of sin that I've had to repent for, and plenty of years ahead of me that I'm gonna have to repent for as well.
4:43
SPEAKER_02: And the question that we're wrestling with today is how does gospel repentance serve as an antidote and as a a healing balm to the anxious congregation?
5:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think uh uh at least a couple of threads here I think are are good to pull.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: One thread is what's the nature of gospel repentance, the deep, profound gospel repentance.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: I think the other is what does this do when you have a group of people that practice this?
5:18
SPEAKER_01: So let me lay out the hope of why it's important for people to practice this, then we'll come back and talk about the nature of it, maybe.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: So I think that when you have a group of people that are practicing gospel repentance that are coming together and they're admitting we got flapped by things that don't matter very much.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: Right.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: We stopped trusting you, we trusted in other things than you.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: When you have a group of people that collectively together corporately repent in in those kinds of ways, that's a body the Lord can do something with.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: Because they're admitting their idolatry and the places where they've put trust that aren't the Lord.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: And when they come back and they admit, we need you desperately, we've got no hope other than you, these things they became more important to us than they did to you.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: That's a beautiful group of people that the Lord can really use.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: And it reduces the anxiety too, because the anxiety in the system is that we're gonna lose something that's really important to us.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, you can never lose Jesus, and he ought to be the most important to you.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: So the thing that you fear losing is something that is far, far inferior to Jesus, and so there's always opportunity when you fear losing something inferior to repent.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: So that's why what this holds out is you have this marvelous, beautiful group of people who are familiar with repenting and don't get as anxious because not as not as much is at stake as they thought.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: And that is a calm system, uh calmer system when people are growing in their apprehension.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: Oh, this might be sad, this might be hard, but this is not catastrophic, and we can receive calm, we can receive comfort.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh, like Jerry talked about in a previous episode from 2 Corinthians 1, right?
7:15
SPEAKER_01: It's the God of all comfort, which I think is incredible.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: That God recognizes that we need comfort in a difficult world, so much so that the one of the names the Holy Spirit has given his style to us as the comforter.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: And um that ought to give us encouragement that if we pray, comfort me in my anxiousness, that the Lord would be happy to respond to that.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: Alright, so the nature of gospel repentance, and this is you know, uh I only learned this from other people.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: This is these are not madisms.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: This is more Keller and Piper were the biggest influences to me in this.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: And of course, they would also say that it's only because they read the Puritans well, who read the scriptures well, right?
8:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what's the nature of real repentance?
8:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you get it in Corinthians, right?
8:09
SPEAKER_01: Uh, the nature of real repentance is in Psalm 51, against you and you only.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: So real repentance is that I've gotten down to the bottom of how my sin is offensive to God.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: It's not as though that it might not have been damaging to me or to other people or to the church.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's that at bottom, the reason it was damaging to all of these other relationships is that it was first damaging to God.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: It dishonored God, it defaced his honor.
8:44
SPEAKER_02: Let me jump in here just because of this.
8:46
SPEAKER_02: I think we've said it before, but it bears repeating here in light of what you've just said.
8:50
SPEAKER_02: Satan's one purpose is to destroy whatever it is that God has made.
8:57
SPEAKER_02: Whatever we do that happens to mess up what God has made, we're doing in line with Satan's purpose.
9:07
SPEAKER_02: That and it helps me to think about that because that puts my sin, it elevates in my mind my sin from this level of okay, I wronged you to no, this is cosmic treason.
9:19
SPEAKER_02: When Jesus says you are a son of your father, the liar, the murderer of old, I've become complicit in Satan's blind.
9:28
SPEAKER_02: Completely.
9:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:30
SPEAKER_02: Completely, willingly, absolutely culpable, 100%.
9:36
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
9:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: No, that's I think it's helpful.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: So real gospel repentance, well, it starts with a conviction by the spirit.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: Real gospel repentance only comes by the spirit.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: We don't manufacture it.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's the it's the gift of repentance, right?
9:51
SPEAKER_01: And actually we read that the spirit granted them repentance.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: So it's something you can you can ask for deeper repentance, and the spirit is happy to help uh to help you with that, right?
10:00
SPEAKER_01: And that's a good thing to pray for sure.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: Because you can have very superficial repentance over something that you said was hurtful or that hurt somebody else, and you can be genuinely sorry, and there's nothing wrong with that.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: It's just that there are usually deeper layers of things going on in our sin.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: Right.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, that are also worthy of repenting of.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: I think Piper is very helpful in this, in that he talks about how we have to get down to the bottom and see what we were worshiping that was not God.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: Because we do things uh we do out of our being.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: So if we do sin, it shows us that our being is messed up.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: So somehow something is felt at risk that actually wasn't at risk, but it felt at risk.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: And you know, our place in God's family, that identity and significance, and so we worship something else to try and bring us significance and satisfaction and identity, purpose, and when we can get down to the bottom and we can repent for what we worship that's not God, then we're getting to the bottom uh of our sin.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: And those are much grosser things to repent of, frankly.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry I yelled at you.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: Please forgive me, right?
11:22
SPEAKER_01: That true, good, not not something wrong with it.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: Yep, good thing, but what you've confessed is your reaction to your emotions about something.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: And typically, those emotions are wrapped up in you worshiping something that's not God.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: So it's not bad to ask for forgiveness for yelling dedicated or whatever, but it does, it's not getting out of the bottom of what's really going on.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: Illustration is probably helpful here.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: So when my kids were young, and so I have three boys and a girl, my boys are as of this recording 24, 22, 20, and my girl's 15.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: So we had three boys bang, bang, bang.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: I would have them in the tub trying to get ready for bed at night, and they'd be playing like boys do, right?
12:06
SPEAKER_01: And I'd be getting frustrated, and my wife would be getting frustrated that I was getting frustrated that they were just being boys and being kids.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: Amen.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: Um and so my wife really, you know, is very kind and patient and wonderful.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: She's kind of like, you gotta figure out what is going on here because this is not good.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: This is they don't feel enjoyed by you, and they're just being kids, they're not dishonoring the Lord.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: There's nothing here that Jesus isn't upset, but you are.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: So clearly you you're the one with the problem.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: And you know what it was very sad, and I'm glad that the Lord's changed me from being this kind of person um to a great degree any longer, is um that time I didn't value.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: I didn't think that that was valuable time.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: It was keeping me from doing things that I thought were more valuable than those three precious little souls.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: And then getting the stuff ticked off my list is what made me feel okay about myself.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: And so that repentance was not just to those kids and being irritated at them, but it was much more about what I felt like was at stake in those moments was where I could get identity.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: And so that's what we mean about a deeper kind of repentance, right?
13:25
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: A kind of gospel repentance that says this thing in the church can't change, or else we're not honoring the Lord.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, actually, what's going on is that your dad taught you that hymn at the family piano, and it's always been identified by that tune, played on the piano with your dad, and he died last year.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: And you couldn't bear that those words could be sung to a different tune using a different instrument because it induces grief in you.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: So you could sin against the pastor, the worship leader said, How could you play it like that?
14:02
SPEAKER_01: That's just terrible or whatever.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you're you're you need to repent for chewing out the worship leader for doing something, nothing wrong, but you have to repent also at a much deeper level.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: And these are the kinds of things that churches end up wrapped around in, right?
14:18
SPEAKER_01: In terms of change.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: You have to repent at a much deeper level that you were trying to get identity out of the stableness of something.
14:28
SPEAKER_02: You were prostrating yourself at the idol of that song.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: Of that song done a particular way as a way to hold on to.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: And it's great to honor your parents and it's great to enjoy music that you got from them.
14:42
SPEAKER_01: There's nothing that's wrong with them.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: The problem is when you go and sin, you have to look at what was I worshiping that was not God.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: And it's good to mourn those things that are lost.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: But not to spill that grief that comes with loss onto other people and sin against them.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: Because what it shows is that you were holding on to something more tightly than Jesus.
15:07
SPEAKER_02: And that is the essence of idolatry.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: That is the essence of idolatry.
15:12
SPEAKER_02: I don't want you the giver of the gift, the giver of life.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: I want the bauble.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: I want the gift.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: And and the and the gifts, many of them are actually really good.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: They're good.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: What does Tripp say?
15:25
SPEAKER_01: Paul Tripp says, the idolatry, the essence of idolatry is that good things become God things.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: Sure, there are bad things that people turn to, but most of the time, idols are good things that we magnify.
15:39
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:39
SPEAKER_02: So going back to your Puritans, right?
15:41
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:41
SPEAKER_02: Jonathan Edwards said that my heart is an idol factory because my affections become too big, more weight of affection than this thing can actually bear.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: The only thing that can bear the weight of godly affection is God Himself.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: Right.
16:01
SPEAKER_02: Nothing in creation can do that.
16:03
SPEAKER_02: Nothing.
16:03
SPEAKER_02: And so Paul says, and so they forgot him.
16:05
SPEAKER_02: They didn't honor him as God, they weren't grateful, and so they replaced the image of the eternal invisible God with images of things which were created.
16:14
SPEAKER_02: Right.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: Right.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: And it's not about that thing that was created, it's about me.
16:20
SPEAKER_02: Aren't I worth it, Matt?
16:22
SPEAKER_02: Are you suggesting that I don't deserve this?
16:26
SPEAKER_01: And what's difficult for people who are experiencing anxiety in a church system is that the thing that they've always valued that they find very positive, the thing that has always been good to them, it's difficult for them to realize that it has gained a prominence to them that is too great.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: And they come to recognize that something has too much import to them when somebody like you as a church leader comes along and wants to change it.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: And now they're confronted with wait, the pastor, the elder, the business leader, they don't think this thing that I think has been really, really important is as important as I do.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: Um and blunt Matt from New York, I come along and I'm kind of like, well, I think that's more important to you than it is to Jesus.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: Now, I think eventually, in some kind and gentle way, it might be helpful for you to hear that.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, because I think that it's actually probably true and it's causing new problems.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: Ring, ring, ring.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: Hello.
17:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh-huh.
17:34
SPEAKER_02: He's here.
17:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: That was Jesus.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: He says he doesn't care.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: And it's and it's it's very difficult because things take on particularly emotional meaning to us.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to be dismissive of that.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: I I'm the guy that tells guys that are doing church revitalization or transitional pastor work, hey, you can't change anything until you know the history of how this came to be and who's vested in it and why.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: Because you have to walk kindly with those people to help them see from scripture what are the things that are inviable and what are the things that should be changeable, but we hold on to them too tightly.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: So we're talking about gospel repentance.
18:15
SPEAKER_01: We get the opportunity, the privilege to respond to the gospel anew in gospel repentance.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: Remember, the gospel is a kind, gentle invitation summons from the king of the universe, the maker of heaven and earth, the maker of each one of us to say, Yeah, I I think you're discovering there that that can't satisfy you, but I can.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: Won't you come back to me?
18:47
SPEAKER_01: So we're in Jeremiah 3 now then.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: Can you could you could you recognize now that that's a broken cistern that you keep trying to pour water into and it keeps pouring out and you end up parched and dry?
19:01
SPEAKER_01: And can you instead come back to me?
19:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm the source of living water.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: And gospel repentance is that really grappling with, you know, I've gone to something other than God to get satisfaction.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: And when a congregation is repenting in that kind of way, then some of these challenges get easier because people are beginning to deal with the real issues underneath their emotions.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: And if they're not, if they won't deal with the real things under their emotions, we're just stuck on the surface managing sin and managing sinners.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: And that is tremendously difficult.
19:48
SPEAKER_02: No one ever graduated from seminary and wanted to be that manager.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: That is the worst kind of middle management right there.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: So to call people to maturity, now for us as leaders, how do we people how do we lead people towards that?
19:59
SPEAKER_02: Well, right, that that that's the right question, but let me throw this in here.
20:03
SPEAKER_02: So you talked about the kids.
20:05
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's one of the things that my wife and I found very helpful is we were starting off in parenthood and struggling with what should our priorities be?
20:13
SPEAKER_02: How do we balance out our time, our affection, our resources, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: We we face the same challenges as everyone did.
20:20
SPEAKER_02: You know, do we take the kids here or do we get the chores done?
20:25
SPEAKER_02: And we we early on, as she did, my wife did, give her the full credit for this.
20:29
SPEAKER_02: She came to the statement people are more important than socks.
20:35
SPEAKER_02: Because literally we can sit here and clean and match the socks and get them put away, or we can go invest in the relationships.
20:44
SPEAKER_02: And for us, this phrase, people are more important than socks, has become a rubric that we can easily use to ask ourselves, hey, are we are we uh judging this?
20:56
SPEAKER_02: Are we balancing this the right way?
20:58
SPEAKER_02: Have we prioritized this the right way?
21:01
SPEAKER_02: And we did that for ourselves, but then our kids got a little older and our kids started not realizing that people are more important than socks.
21:10
SPEAKER_02: Except in their case it wasn't socks, it was my stuffy or my toy or my paper or whatever it is that's mine, and clearly it's more important than people because I just hit you because you did something to my thing.
21:20
SPEAKER_02: Right.
21:20
SPEAKER_02: And so we started talking to them.
21:22
SPEAKER_02: People are more important than socks, people are more important than your paper, people are more important than this.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: Why?
21:29
SPEAKER_02: Because God has loved us and gave us his son, because God himself put adopting you as his child so high in his estimation that he and his son decided that the way to handle this was for Jesus to come and die.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: So that we could be with him.
21:53
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so that that's kind of the starting point here.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: Uh so your question was how do we move towards that?
22:00
SPEAKER_02: And the question I want to ask you as we do this, just maybe wrap them together, maybe ignore mine, but it doesn't matter.
22:09
SPEAKER_02: There's an impulse here to uh sew together, to, to weave together our fig leaves, to do image management.
22:17
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
22:18
SPEAKER_02: And to present image management as repentance.
22:22
SPEAKER_02: So your question, how do we move towards true gospel repentance?
22:26
SPEAKER_02: I think here's kind of the the path ahead of us.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think that the the leaders that lead forward uh without anxiety lead forward with gospel repentance.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: That's what we're trying to sew the two of these together, right?
22:43
SPEAKER_01: Is that if I'm being refreshed and renewed and that God's received me into his family, I'm turning away from my idols, I'm turning to the true God, I'm receiving the identity that he gives me, I'm enjoying the acceptance I have in his family.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's the place that I'm finding enjoyment.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: Not in the stuff that God gives, good stuff, church stuff, but I'm finding enjoyment in him.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: If I'm leading forward in that, that calms my anxieties because it's reset me on what's important, uh, which is on the Lord and following him and receiving from his hand what he graciously gives.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: That allows me to lead other people into a place that I've gone.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: Scazera talks about this, and I think it's very, very helpful.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, my way of putting this is um you can't give away what you don't have.
23:32
unknown: Yeah.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: But whatever you have, you are giving it away.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: I I saw this in in Spades in an opportunity that I had to lead in a setting where once I got inside of the setting and started started working with people and staff and leaders, I found that they didn't apologize.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: I I found they didn't apologize.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I thought you said that.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: And it was a complete mystery to me.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: Because for people that are gospel humbled, apology becomes easier.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: I think it becomes our native tongue.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: I I'd like to think that it be could be that we could get fluent at it.
24:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: Because I think for people who are gospel humbled, who are being renewed in the gospel, who have this who who it is regular for them to have uh repentance as a part of their their relationship with God and their relationship with others, they're getting comfortable being mere creatures.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: Because mere creatures make mistakes, they have faults, they don't know everything.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: There are lots of opportunities for mere creatures to apologize.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: And even more for mere creatures that have been forgiven who have the freedom to own their sins before God and before others, because I no longer have to kind of keep up my image in front of other people because I don't need their approval to feel okay about myself because I already have the approval of my father.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: Now that was dense.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: Go back and listen to it again.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: But I think that that's super, super important.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: If I have to manage my image so that people think a certain way about me, I can't afford, that's an important word.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: We used it earlier about differentiating, but I can't afford to apologize.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: I can't afford to repent.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: I can't afford to look weak.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: And yet, how weak was our savior?
25:32
SPEAKER_01: He subjected himself to weakness.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: And so if we can't subject ourselves to weakness, that ought to be a hint that we might not be following our savior, but we might be following the way of the world.
25:45
SPEAKER_02: Identity and acceptance.
25:49
SPEAKER_02: I sow fig leaves when I believe my identity is in danger.
25:55
SPEAKER_02: I cover myself up, I manage image so that I get the acceptance I crave.
26:02
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
26:02
SPEAKER_02: I need.
26:03
SPEAKER_02: And let me be clear, that is a real need.
26:06
SPEAKER_02: We are all, I think it was G.K.
26:08
SPEAKER_02: Chesterton who said, every man who's darkened the door of a brothel was looking for God.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: We are all craving the person who knows who we are.
26:22
SPEAKER_02: Do you see me?
26:23
SPEAKER_02: Do you accept me?
26:25
SPEAKER_02: Do you love me?
26:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: But in an environment where I'm not secure that I have that from God, there's no gospel repentance, there's no apologizing.
26:37
SPEAKER_02: Um what replaces that when there's not that understanding?
26:43
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I think um relationships end up um stilted and broken because we we know there's a problem, but nobody can go first in admitting their contribution to it.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: I think it breeds mistrust.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: So shielding?
27:00
SPEAKER_01: Shielding fighting.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: I think it breeds it breeds great mistrust in leadership.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: And I think leaders get this entirely wrong.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: It's it's upside down, is that um when you admit fault to those that you lead but point them in the direction of Jesus, you gain the opportunity to lead them.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: You don't lose their trust, you gain their trust.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: This is very misunderstood in a world where if if we of if all we had was our own wiles and we were out in the world and we were trying to make our way, I can understand why people would think that way.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: But we don't.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: That's not the world we live in in the church, right?
27:36
SPEAKER_01: The church, the world that we live in is that that thing that you already crave, you have already in Jesus.
27:42
SPEAKER_01: And so you can afford to not be perfect among others.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: They already know you're not.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: You're the only one who's still living as though it's not true.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: And when you live things that others know are not true, they will not give you the chance to lead.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: And this is why this is so important that this gospel repentance allows you to own things as they actually are.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: It lowers your anxiety level because you're not trying to maintain something that is untrue and it leads other people into freedom.
28:17
SPEAKER_02: The other word that comes to mind is striving.
28:21
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: We end up having to create our covering, our righteousness.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: I call it working for an identity, and that's a there's a huge contrast between working for an identity and receiving one.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: And if we're working for an identity, it looks frenetic because that's it's if we think we have it, we might lose it.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: If we don't think we have it, we're trying to gain it, and we're doing all that we can not to lose it.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: And that dense little thing there, that's a lot of human striving.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: Is to try and get something that we're told that we already have actually in Christ.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: And if we can demonstrate that ourselves as leaders, calmly, without anxiety in the way that we relate, I think that it we get the opportunity to lead other people into that.
29:15
SPEAKER_02: So practically, to the pastor, to the session leader, to the elder, who's listening to this, what should their first and second uh steps be?
29:29
SPEAKER_02: What should their first and second conversations be and with whom to evaluate whether or not they're walking in what we're describing here, grace gospel centered repentance?
29:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a good question.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes getting perspective from outside is actually helpful.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: So if you're in a setting where you've got other people around you who get this dynamic, I think you can come and ask them, hey, help us try.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: Understand this.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: Is this actually the way that we are?
30:03
SPEAKER_01: We want to be like this.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: We don't know if we are or we're not.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: We kind of doubt that we are.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: Can you help us understand it?
30:08
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, perspective from the outside, I think, can be really, really helpful.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: Right.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: I think that the the other thing is that in some settings where image management has been the most important thing, there are people who've now likely been sidelined in the system who tried to plead for gospel repentance.
30:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: And I think that one of the things you can do that's very that's very humble is to say, We did not listen to you, brother.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: We did not listen to you, sister, when you tried to bring this to us.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: But the Lord has arrested us.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: Come and talk to us again.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: Help us understand where what you were trying to say.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: I have a board member who uh has a very poignant way of talking about this.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: He talks about the arm of the flesh and just calls out the difference between the striving of the arm of the flesh, which is so much happens in churches.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: Um it's why I'm working on the community spiritual discernment book, because so much of what happens it appears to be the arm of the flesh, not the work of the spirit.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: Because the work of the spirit is beautiful and it draws people together and it bears great fruit.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generous, faithfulness, self-control.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: It bears this incredible, wonderful fruit that's the opposite of anxiety.
31:36
SPEAKER_02: A fruit unto righteousness or a fruit unto death.
31:41
SPEAKER_02: I I you and I spoke about this weeks and weeks ago.
31:45
SPEAKER_02: I know you're not very familiar with the work of Amy Edmondson, but she has written a lot about the idea of psychological safety.
31:54
SPEAKER_02: And the way she's defined psychological safety is that within an organization, people, regardless of their status within the organization, are free to call out the truth without fear of being scapegoated or executed.
32:14
SPEAKER_02: Fascinating.
32:16
SPEAKER_02: And what she's demonstrated through her research is that for instance in a hospital where there is an idea of accountability, I'm using square quotes there, they say they hold each other accountable.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: But what's actually going on is there is image management.
32:33
SPEAKER_02: And we're going to meet these metrics, and that's what's important.
32:37
SPEAKER_02: The illness and injury and mistake and death rate is significantly higher than in organizations, hospitals specifically, where the entire staff is responsible to care for the health of the patient, to make sure that the patient is safe at all times.
32:55
SPEAKER_02: So even though the doctor is the authority, the nurse or the tech has the responsibility to say, hey, this is out of line.
33:03
SPEAKER_02: Right.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: This is wrong here.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: And I I know that you might not want to hear this, but I also know that you're committed to the safety of this patient.
33:13
SPEAKER_02: And so you're not going to turn your discomfort over this mistake against me because I brought it up.
33:20
SPEAKER_02: I'm safe to speak what's true here.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: And that and that's uh what I'll just label that as fascinating is that the mission is higher than my image.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: My image as a doctor is not the highest good here.
33:36
SPEAKER_02: So you're willing to sacrifice your image for the sake of the mission.
33:39
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
33:40
SPEAKER_02: Huh.
33:42
SPEAKER_02: That sounds interesting.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: Does that sound familiar for some reason?
33:45
SPEAKER_02: That sounds familiar for some reason.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: Huh.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: I feel it's ringing a bell.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: But then it's fascinating to elevate the mission above my own image, my own what I want to get out of this.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: And that's where churches end up tied up in knots.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: Is what I want to get out of this gets elevated above the mission.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: And um and and that's its own form of disobedience.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: Right?
34:15
SPEAKER_01: You know, our friends in the in the EPC talk about how um when we think about ministry, that there's um content, which is you know the Bible, the scriptures, things that are inviable, um, the context, which means that as missionaries, we're always trying to um think about the context and how to bring the unchanging content to a context that's changed, whether it's here, you know, in America 35 years after I became a Christian, which is very different than when I became a Christian.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: And then there's a container, right?
34:42
SPEAKER_01: When I started bringing the gospel to people, you could use the four spiritual laws.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: You might as well, you know, spit in the wind to use the four spiritual laws now, because as a container for trying to talk about the gospel with people, it has so many assumptions built into it that don't they're they're not valid any longer.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: There are other containers that are better.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: What happens in church ministry is we get wrapped up in those containers and we think those are the inviable things when they're not.
35:08
SPEAKER_02: The way I say that is that our orthopraxy reveals our orthodoxy.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
35:15
SPEAKER_02: If I am a church leader who is not safe or comfortable or willing to walk out gospel-centered repentance, the reality is regardless of what statement of faith I've signed on to, the truth is I believe in a works-based salvation.
35:35
SPEAKER_02: And I believe I'm powerful enough to work my way to heaven.
35:39
SPEAKER_02: And if you just follow my model, you might get there too.
35:43
SPEAKER_02: I'm working, you should be working too.
35:45
SPEAKER_02: The question that I would the challenge I would give to any pastor listening to this right now is to ask yourself this question, honestly.
35:54
SPEAKER_02: Do I feel free to go before my elder board and repent for something that is sinful?
36:03
SPEAKER_02: If you don't, I would strongly encourage you to really take seriously what steps you should take to get a gospel-centered alignment within your leadership.
36:16
SPEAKER_02: Because if it's affecting you there, I guarantee you it's throughout your congregation.
36:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:22
SPEAKER_02: Because as the leaders go, the congregation goes.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: Happy note to end on, but it's been a full day of recording for us.
36:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm tired.
36:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm grateful you guys are with us.
36:33
SPEAKER_02: We will pick this up in the next time, unless there's something else you want to say, because I you know, I'm here for you, man.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: No, it's good.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: Lead with Gospel Center of Repentance.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: It's the calling from God.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: See you later.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to the Church Renewal podcast on Flourished Coaching.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: Flourished exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: We believe that there's only one fully sufficient reason that this day dawned.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: Jesus is still gathering his people and is using his church to do it.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: When pastors of churches built stuff, our team of coaches refresh their hope in the gospel and help them clarify their strategy.
37:07
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37:10
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37:18
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37:22
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37:27
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37:34
SPEAKER_00: A huge thank you to all of our guests for making the time to share their stories with us.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: We are really blessed to have all these friends and partners.
37:41
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37:45
SPEAKER_00: The Church Renewal podcast was directed and produced by Jeremy Sefferati in association with Flourish Coaching, with the goal of equipping and encouraging your church to flourish wherever God has called to.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: Bye for now.