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Rethinking Church Buildings for a New Era with Bob Jaeger · Future Christian

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  Martha Tatarnic (00:05) This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas, and the future of the church. Martha Tatarnic (00:18) Today, Loren Richmond Jr. is in conversation with Robert Yeager He is the co-founder and president of Partners for Sacred Places, the nation's leading nonprofit dedicated to the stewardship and preservation of historic religious properties. Since 1989, he has helped congregations across the country sustain their buildings as
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  vital community assets, leading initiatives such as the Economic Halo Effect Study, and the New Dollars, New Partners program. With a background in historic preservation and organizational He previously founded the Historic Religious Properties Preservation Program at the Philadelphia Historic Preservation Corporation and has extensive experience in research, consulting, and publishing. He is the author or co-author of several influential works on sacred spaces and community renewal and has
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  lectured widely. at national and international conferences. A reminder before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Lauren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email at lauren at resonatemediapro.com with comments, questions, or ideas for future episodes. We appreciate your support in making this podcast possible. Loren Richmond Jr (01:50) Hello, welcome to the
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  Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond, Jr. and I'm pleased to be joined today by Bob Yeager. Hello, welcome to the show. Bob Jaeger (01:59) Thank you, Lauren. It's a great pleasure to be with you today. Thank you. Loren Richmond Jr (02:02) Yeah, looking forward to having this conversation. I guess I asked before we start recording, but you know, we're coming from different parts of the country. anything else you're in, what Philadelphia, you said anything else you want to say about
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  yourself for our listeners? Bob Jaeger (02:17) Well, I'm a Midwesterner originally. I grew up in Michigan ⁓ and went to school first in Michigan, but I've been on the East Coast a long time now. So ⁓ I love the East Coast. I love the Midwest. And fortunately, my job really gives me a chance to travel around the country and meet church folks of every description, of every tradition, in every locality. And I love that. So I guess I'm a man across the country, not just in any one region. Loren
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  Richmond Jr (02:46) Yeah, I'm sure you rack up the flyer miles, Bob Jaeger (02:49) Yes, yes, yes. And when the last snowstorm arrived on the East Coast a couple of weeks ago, that kept me in Dallas for three days because I couldn't get home. So that does happen. Loren Richmond Jr (02:58) my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm in the Denver Metro and we're finally getting snow, measurable snow for the first time in a long time. It's been a very dry winter, so we're grateful for it. Sheriff,
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  Sheriff, what do your faith background and faith journey, what looked like in the past and what that looks like today? Bob Jaeger (03:07) I'll Yeah. Well, I grew up in a mid-century, I have to add the architectural dimension, know, of what I do. I grew up in a mid-century 1950s Presbyterian church in suburban Detroit. And my family was very, very active in the church. you know, my mom helped put up the Christmas and Easter decorations. And our father was on the session. Loren Richmond Jr
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  (03:21) Yes, yes. Bob Jaeger (03:39) So, you know, that carried over, although I really wasn't paying attention to architecture until much later, but I stayed in the Presbyterian Church for a long, time. And when I moved to Philadelphia in the years that led to Partners Founding, I was a member of First Presbyterian. But I've drifted toward the Episcopalian side of things in recent years, ⁓ partly because of the liturgy, but, you know, partly the nature of the leadership and the nature of the
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  congregation. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (03:46) Yeah. Bob Jaeger (04:08) But, you know, I've lived in Philadelphia now for 40 some years and we have, believe it or not, 830 purpose-built historic churches and synagogues in the city. And there are 40 some just in downtown. So I've come to know many of them. I haven't worshipped in the hall, but I know many of them. Loren Richmond Jr (04:27) Wow. Yeah. Wow. ⁓ yeah, this is the, we're going to nerd out probably a little bit about church architecture
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  on this conversation. Cause my kids now make fun of me that wherever I, wherever we travel to, like, I want to see the churches and the church buildings. I think like architecture, church architecture tells such a unique story about, you know, that community, you know, I tell my daughter, like there's a story in that architecture. about the community, about what they value, know, about their faith. And, ⁓ one thing, you know, I imagine, well, 830, you know, faith spaces in Philly. I think
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  what's fascinated me about church architecture is how much like the, they vary based on like the theological tradition. Bob Jaeger (05:23) Yeah, the form says a lot about their roots. Loren Richmond Jr (05:28) Yeah. Bob Jaeger (05:32) Often in Europe, ⁓ it says a lot about the way they worship. It says a lot about what else happens in the building. A good example is the Sunday School, which may be take the form of an acorn plant. So it's a kind of polygonal space behind the sanctuary or it
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  could be a Sunday School wing. And I often say to church folks, you your building really is a portal for the community to engage with you. It has a lot of power that you may not recognize. And we encourage congregations to tell the story. Loren Richmond Jr (05:33) Yeah? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (06:02) of their sacred places. Because I think the community is interested. They may never worship there, but they go by and they love the fact they've been there all these years. So they have
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  a lot to say and it's partly the architecture, it's partly the art, it's probably the way the spaces are laid out and what purposes they've served. So I agree totally. The architecture, the buildings say have a lot to say, but it's the story the congregations often don't tell. Loren Richmond Jr (06:09) Right. Yeah. And we're already getting into this and I need to ask you one more opening question, I suppose, but whatever. ⁓ like I was thinking about this too, about the way that architecture,
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  church architecture kind of shapes the community. ⁓ like I follow Strong Towns and if you're familiar with Strong Towns and their big thing is like how roads or landscapes, you know, like shape. Bob Jaeger (06:52) or bit. Loren Richmond Jr (06:59) the way we drive or interact with the environment. I, like, I'm, they, I'm trying to work on a piece to submit to them on this point of like a church, especially like an older church, like it has a way of reorienting our awareness of whether it's
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  the, the sepal pointing to the sky of kind of directing our, our, our eye line up and to think beyond ourselves and beyond right now. or the rootedness, right, of like the stone, the groundedness. And like, this is why, like, I really dislike the whole mega church model, like churches that look like, you know, Walmarts. Cause I think there is, mean, correct me if you feel otherwise, but I think there really is like this transactional feel when you go into a church like that. Bob Jaeger (07:43)
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  Hmm. Yeah, they mark the land. They mark their landmarks in every sense, whether it's a country church or it's a more urban place. And in the urban places, they're often located at critical junctures in the streetscape. And they help tell us where we are. The clock. Loren Richmond Jr (07:55) Right. Yeah. Right. Bob Jaeger (08:13) ⁓ in the tower or the steeple ⁓ or just, you know, it's on a park or it's right downtown near City Hall. And it claims its place in the kind of the public mind
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  that this is just to remind you, it's not all about conducting business. It's also about spirituality. Loren Richmond Jr (08:32) Yeah. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (08:35) And even, and again, you know, even if, even if not as many people go to worship as they used to, I think these places still have a lot of power to engage the community and to invite the congregation and community to meet, you know, and cause you know, lot of congregations have mixed feelings about their buildings cause they demand a
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  lot and they can be expensive, but, but I think they also have a lot of power that's not really recognized. Loren Richmond Jr (08:43) Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of power, like I always ask folks about spiritual practices. So for me, at least like being in a, in a church, especially like an old church for me is almost, I mean, it is like a spiritual practice. And I think in our time period where the modern world is so divorced and so, so many ways from like God, like
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  I think retaining buildings just to remind people like, Hey, people have found God's presence here. Bob Jaeger (09:29) Right. Loren Richmond Jr (09:30) again and again is so important. Bob Jaeger (09:34) And they still tell stories. So, you know, we all know that in the medieval era, those great old Gothic cathedrals went when nobody could read. You could look up at the windows and they would tell you the stories from the Bible or about the saints. And we can now read. But I still think when
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  people go into a church, whether it's for worship or for concert, you do tend to look at the iconography. You tend to look at the windows and it reminds you of those powerful stories. And the other thing Loren Richmond Jr (09:36) Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (10:03) that I love is ⁓ if you look more closely you'll learn about the people who gave those windows, who gave those features, and they have a story to tell. You know, sometimes a child may have died ⁓ young, which was
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  very common back then, and it was a memory of that child, or the parents, or the grandparents, or a Sunday school class. Sometimes a window was given by a Sunday school class in memory of their teachers. And sometimes it takes some digging to figure out, exactly who were these people? Why did they do this? ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (10:09) Yes. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Right. Bob Jaeger (10:33) But we encourage churches to dig in and learn those things because first of all, it's a part of their history,
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  but also the people that gave that window, maybe they moved to Arizona now, but they may still care about you. Loren Richmond Jr (10:47) Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (10:47) So why not reconnect with them, invite them to be a part of your life again? Maybe they'll never worship again. But if you're investing in your building, if you want to make your building, you know, do some new things, or you want to fix the roof, you know, you need to kind of reconnect with the folks who've been a part of that
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  life over the last 50, 100, 150 years. And so one of my colleagues was talking to a church, I think it was in Indiana, about Loren Richmond Jr (10:59) Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (11:17) ⁓ their building and said, have you been, have you connected to the so-and-so family? And the church folks said, well, what are you talking about? He said, they're the ones who gave that window. And they ended up reconnecting and those folks ended up supporting the care and preservation of the building. So that's a
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  part of the richness of the story, I think, that congregations need to be encouraged to tell. Loren Richmond Jr (11:29) Hmm. Wow. Yeah, I want to come back to that later on too. Let's let me ask this, like, how did you get into this work of caring about these spaces? Bob Jaeger (11:55) You know, it started on an afternoon when I had some some empty time, time to fill. ⁓ in Ann Arbor, Michigan, I was getting my ⁓ MBA at the University of Michigan because I grew up near Detroit and ⁓ my mom
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  had just died. So I was kind of adrift and I was looking for something to occupy my mind. So I had my camera with me and I went into my church, First Presbyterian Church, which was from the 1920s and the building happened to be open. And if you walk in the sanctuary on a Saturday and it's dark, the thing you see are the windows because they just Loren Richmond Jr (12:18) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Bob Jaeger (12:32) glow and Loren Richmond Jr (12:33) Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (12:34) that's when they're best
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  seen when there's no artificial light from above. And I started to look at them and I wow, this is really cool. And I started to take photographs. I soon found out it takes some extra effort to get a good photograph of a stained glass window, by the way. You need a tripod. This is in the old days with SLRs. And I, you know, I don't know. cannot, it may have been divine, the divine hand. I don't know what, but I just caught the bug. And for the next several months, I went from church to church
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  to church in Ann Arbor. And Ann Arbor is an old town. So there's a lot of great old churches. Loren Richmond Jr (13:08) huh. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (13:09) went to the Episcopal Church and the Methodist Church and the Baptist Church and the Catholic Churches and photographed their windows. And one window in particular in the Episcopal Church was different than all the others. It turned out to be a window by Tiffany, which it's a very special kind of glass. Loren Richmond Jr (13:26) Hmm. Yeah. Bob
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  Jaeger (13:29) And, you know, and by the way, I'm getting my MBA, so I'm, this has nothing to do with my studies. But ⁓ I started, you know, back, this is the late 70s, so there was very little published on Tiffany at that point. Now, you know, you can, his lamps go for $100,000. But back then, Tiffany had been kind of forgotten. And I managed to dig up a list of all the windows that he produced ⁓ in 1910. Loren Richmond Jr (13:45) Mm-hmm. Wow. Bob Jaeger (13:56) It was like an inventory and
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  it was, it became my map. So I make photocopies of it and I mapped out where the towns were that had churches with Tiffany. And as I traveled, I would look them up and it, you know, and meanwhile, I had gone to work for IBM for three years, but my real passion was churches and church architecture. Loren Richmond Jr (14:14) Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (14:20) And so when I was like, my God, this job at IBM is so boring, I hate it. So I went back to school to get a degree in preservation planning. and
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  did my thesis on church architecture. And when I worked, when I got my first job in the field in Philadelphia, which was not about churches at all, ⁓ my boss gave me an opportunity to look into forming a new service that would help congregations with the care of their buildings. And I loved it. And I managed to get a grant to support that work. So one thing led to another. And by 1987, 88, Loren Richmond Jr (14:45) Hmm. Bob Jaeger (15:00) I had started to connect with peers who were also
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  interested. Back in those days, there was no national nonprofit serving historic and older churches and synagogues. So I met my peers and we all agreed there should be a national advocate and resource center. That's what led to Partners Founding in 89. But so it started with Windows, moved on to church architecture. And then over the years, I became more more interested in not just the form of the building, Loren Richmond Jr (15:08) Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (15:30) the beauty of the building, but
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  also its value as a resource, as a place where the good work of the congregation can be done. Loren Richmond Jr (15:35) Yeah, yeah. Bob Jaeger (15:40) And that's endlessly fascinating because so much has changed. know Sunday School wings may be empty now and congregations are trying to figure out what to do with that space. You know kitchens and dining rooms may not serve the same functions they did 50 years ago. So it's so my kind of work has grown a lot. I still am interested in how do you
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  fix the steeple and how do you fix that Tiffany window or how do you save money and energy. And we're interested in fundraising too because congregations need to be Loren Richmond Jr (15:43) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (16:10) creative about the way they raise funds for their buildings. But a lot of our work has really moved toward the question of how do these buildings stay active and useful. So I have grown a lot from those early days. But it started that afternoon. You know, it really did.
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  You know, just encountering these windows and like it was a wow, it was a aha moment for me. Loren Richmond Jr (16:12) Right, right. Well, I guess I need to ask you to send me after this if there's any Tiffany windows in Colorado. Okay, you're going to send me that list and my kids will hate me, but we're going to go see some of them. ⁓ Bob Jaeger (16:40) there are. yeah, you gotta, you gotta. Loren Richmond Jr (16:49) So, I mean, obviously, like anyone who's listening, this is probably
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  heard this conversation before that they're like on magnitude of predicting tens of thousands of churches to be closed or face enclosure in the near future. Like, what do you think of that as fact? What do you think of that as fiction? And, and what's like, what, what do you make of all that? Like what either concerns you about that narrative, true or not? Bob Jaeger (17:16) Well, you know, there is some truth in it. There's a lot of, well, I sometimes use the word churn. There's a lot of
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  churn. know, congregations are closing or are worried about closing. Some of them are demolished. Loren Richmond Jr (17:22) Yeah. Bob Jaeger (17:30) Some are reused and sometimes they're reused by another congregation, which is great. Sometimes they're reused as a center for the arts or for a gathering place or for a college or there's a zillion, myriad, you know, possibilities for a reused church. Loren Richmond Jr (17:35) Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (17:49) But yes, ⁓ a lot, particularly I think in
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  the mainline congregations and maybe in the Northeast and the Midwest and parts of the West Coast too. It's a very serious question. So that's why we really try to focus on what can we do? Can we step in and be helpful to a congregation? before it's too late, you know, before their options are down to one, which is selling the building, you know, and so a lot of our work on this transitioning process where congregations are rethinking their place in the building. Can we be helpful early enough
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  so they have choices and options? ⁓ For example, they may say, know what, have two thirds of our building is vacant all the time. Maybe we can bring in an anchor tenant that's a good fit with our Loren Richmond Jr (18:08) Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Bob Jaeger (18:37) values and our purpose. So a lot of congregations do share space, but they could do it in a bigger way. Sometimes they may say, we need to co-own this building with another church. If they do need to sell, I think one of the really
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  difficult questions that we pose is, if you need to sell, can you do it in a civic-minded way? Loren Richmond Jr (18:37) Right. Mm-hmm. Yes. Bob Jaeger (19:00) meaning rather than just throwing it to the realtor and then who knows what happens, can you plan this so that you can encourage a buyer who will maintain the civic purpose of this place? Because after all, you've served this neighborhood or this community for maybe 100 years. And it's a terrible shame to walk away from that. So can
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  you anticipate this with enough time to be in conversation with your leaders in the community and say, can this building be Loren Richmond Jr (19:02) Yes. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (19:30) used by another nonprofit or something. It could become condos, but condos tend to destroy the interior. Nothing against condos, but that's what tends to happen. you know, but. Loren Richmond Jr (19:37) Right, right. Bob Jaeger (19:43) At that point, everybody's exhausted and they're tired and they want to get a
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  return and they want to just, you know, cash out. So I understand that too, but, but we try to be available early on. And, the transitioning guide that we've talked a bit about before, it's meant to alert congregations to some of their options and help them think, you know, I just was talking to a pastor in New Mexico. And they're considering several options, one of which is to sell. And they may want to work with us to help them work through those options and pick what's best, not just for the
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  congregation, but for their neighborhood. And that's, we like to see that where, you know, pastors and lay people are, you know, trying to do some planning and come up and try to reach the the best option for everybody. Loren Richmond Jr (20:12) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I'm glad you made the point about the civic mindedness because certainly like you mentioned about, you know, high end luxury condos, you know, I think is certainly I've seen it in some churches that have loosely followed
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  in my neck of the woods where they come, it kind of becomes less and less accessible to the public. If that makes sense. Bob Jaeger (20:54) Right. mean, preservationists, you know, we're somewhat of a preservation group, might say it's a win if the facade is preserved. And that's true. If it's a beautiful facade, that's great. But the artistic treasures tend to be inside, number one. And number two, if it's condos, pretty much all civic purpose is gone. Loren Richmond Jr (21:04) Right. Right.
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  Yeah, yep. Bob Jaeger (21:17) It can no longer be a place for concerts, for community meetings, for gatherings, ⁓ you know, whatever. You know, that kind of civic purpose is pretty much gone. ⁓ And so, you know, it's a mixed bag. And in expensive, expensive communities like New York or Boston or maybe Denver, you know, where land values are high. Loren Richmond Jr (21:41) Right. Bob Jaeger (21:42) converting a building but keeping the facade intact but converting the building to residential
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  can seem like a win and to some extent it is a win. But some places are so important and so special and their spaces inside are so remarkable and adaptable. Can we at least look at that and encourage that kind of option if we can? Loren Richmond Jr (21:49) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm appreciating you're talking about the economic thing, value too. This is something that I really found fascinating when I first encountered your work is how you've done studies about the economic impact of local churches.
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  And as you said, when I heard you speaking at Phillips seminary, again, like so many churches just don't even think through that, that kind of mindset and would never think to have. that ⁓ have that conversation with a community leader saying, is kind of the economic impact we bring to our church. So talk more about that. Bob Jaeger (22:43) Well, you know, it's a really important part of our work and it's really driven and shaped a lot of our outreach is understanding the community impact,
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  the economic impact of a congregation and its building. And it started at our board meeting in like 95 or 96, our treasurer raised this question. He said, you know, do we know what goes on in these buildings? Loren Richmond Jr (23:01) Hmm. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (23:07) who served in these buildings during the week, not on Sunday, you know, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And we began to look around and to our astonishment, we learned that nobody knew anything about what happened in our churches
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  during the week. you know, if we're part of our job, our main job is to be a resource and a service provider. Loren Richmond Jr (23:11) Right. Hmm. Bob Jaeger (23:28) But we are also an advocate and we do research on occasion. And this was our first research project working with the University of Pennsylvania School of Social Work, by the way, social work. Loren Richmond Jr (23:33) Mm-hmm. Hm. Mm-hm. Bob Jaeger (23:38) not religious studies, this is not a seminary, this is social work.
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  Because they were asking some of the same questions. What, how do faith communities serve people in need? And so we partnered with them to find a random selection of congregations with older buildings in several cities and interview them to learn about how our space is shared, ⁓ who benefits. And one of the first things we learned is four out of five. Loren Richmond Jr (23:49) Yeah. Bob Jaeger (24:08) of the people served by programs housed in a church, 80 % are not members. And nobody had
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  that statistic before. And we also began to look at the monetary value, the economic value of the subsidy the congregations provide to the programs that they house. Loren Richmond Jr (24:13) Hmm. Hmm. Bob Jaeger (24:27) And this led to a larger question about what we call the halo effect of a church. What's its larger impact? And so that first study looked mostly at the way spaces are shared. But then we moved into a larger question. What are all the ways that that congregation and its sacred
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  place contribute to the economy and the life of the community? Loren Richmond Jr (24:31) Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (24:48) And there are like 40 to 50 different ways. It's astonishing how many different ways. And so we went back to Penn to broaden our questions. And we learned for your average urban church, it's almost $2 million a year in economic value that it brings to the community. And most political leaders have never been asked to think about this or business leaders or civic leaders. Loren
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  Richmond Jr (24:51) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (25:13) And you know, they look at the Methodist Church and they think that's for Methodists. But we now know, no, no, for most of the week, most of the people they serve are not Methodists. They're from all around the community. So that realization... Loren Richmond Jr (25:17) Right. Bob Jaeger (25:28) has helped shape all of our work. So one of our core programs is training congregations to articulate their value and tell their story, including
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  their halo effect, tell their story in new ways to gain broader support. Because if you're smaller than you once were, say you were 300 people and you're now 50 people, or you were 500 and you're now down to 80, you know, you've got to be creative about the way you take care of and use your building. Loren Richmond Jr (25:50) Right. Bob Jaeger (25:58) To do that, you need to articulate your value in new ways. So, you know, so it's quarter work training, our national fund for Sake of Places,
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  which is our biggest program. We offer that kind of halo assessment as one of the services we can provide. And interestingly, Loren Richmond Jr (26:02) Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (26:15) the more congregations in the National Fund ask for that service than anything else. You know, they can ask us to help with their capital campaign or with their communications, but most of them ask for the HALO study because it's so powerful. Loren Richmond Jr (26:21) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (26:31) And so,
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  know, Halo, it helps us articulate nationally why these places are important, but we want to give that power to each congregation also. So they can articulate to their mayor and to their banks and to their community foundation, hey, you know, we are a civic asset for you all. And when we need to fix a building, could you help us? Loren Richmond Jr (26:53) Mm-hmm. I think this Yeah Bob Jaeger (26:54) or when we want to use our space, not starting dry. But the other thing is, if we have some
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  empty space and we want to use it in new ways, can you help us think about that? Loren Richmond Jr (27:02) Right. Right. think this is so important for churches for again, telling that story, that narrative, because the, the cliche that often I see gets shared is like, most of church giving is just being sucked up internally. Like it's going to staffing, it's going to building. And we don't think about like the building for instance, or the staffing having external impact. Like you said, for
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  the five. people impacted by church being outside of the community, or that halo effect. Bob Jaeger (27:36) Exactly. So it's not just bricks and mortar. This is an asset that serves everyone. And in fact, when we measure halo, it's not just the value of the space on the open market. It's also the fact that the staff spend time supporting that program. whether it's the pastor's time or the secretary's time or the custodian's time. So we factor all that in. That's part of the church's subsidy.
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  Loren Richmond Jr (27:40) Right. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (28:06) And, you know, and we say to congregations, you know, you need to articulate this better, you know, not just to the local donors in town, but the people that share your space, they need to know what you put into that space because they have donors, they have a board, they have, say it's say it's an afterschool program. So you've got a board, you've got donors, you've got parents, right? Loren Richmond Jr (28:23) Mm-
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  hmm. Yes, yep. Bob Jaeger (28:32) Well, you know, they may not be thinking about this, that that church is providing that space often very affordably, and then every 10 or 20 years they're going to need some help to replace the boiler and to fix the roof. If you've told, if you've articulated this properly, then they're going to be readier to help you. Loren Richmond Jr (28:40) Right. Yes. Let's stay on this because I think this is so important and so powerful and so beyond what the vast
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  majority of think churches would even think of like we can have, it's drama pen. We can approach like a renter to be part of our capital campaign. mean, that seems so, crazy, but it also makes sense. So share more about that for our listeners. Bob Jaeger (29:14) Well, you know, the first step is congregations need to know what their spaces cost. And they don't do that either. They, you know, they don't know what portion of their heating and cooling costs can be assigned to that space. They
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  haven't thought about amortizing, you know, roof repairs and other repairs to the, to the envelope to particular spaces. Nor do they, nor are they in conversation with their Loren Richmond Jr (29:19) Yes. No, no! Yeah. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (29:39) Let's not call them tenants. Let's call them space sharers. The people who share their space. They're not in conversation about what it entails to provide that space. And you can't wait to the last minute. You know, you can't wait. my goodness, the roof
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  needs repair right now. I'm going to run to those space sharers because then they're going to be taken aback. Better to be in conversation all along to say, hey, we're so glad you're here. Loren Richmond Jr (29:42) Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (30:04) We want to make this space affordable. not asking market rate because we love that you're here. You're part of our mission. However, we want you to know that this space costs us $20,000 a year, and we're only asking for $5,000 or
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  $2,000 or whatever it is. And so I think it requires planning and ongoing conversation. Loren Richmond Jr (30:10) Mm-hmm. Yeah, right, right. Bob Jaeger (30:25) And yes, you're right, congregations usually think, well first of all, they think about their own members. And in the old days, they relied on their members entirely for their fundraising. But we're saying, hey, you know, if you tell your story properly, then funders and business people and neighbors will be much readier to help you.
• 4:12
  And your space shares, they're right there. Loren Richmond Jr (30:34) Mm-hmm. Right. Bob Jaeger (30:49) They're right there and they may have, they may have, there may be folks in their ecosystem that have some means and might want to help you. But it does require, you know, some thinking and some planning and saying, well, you know, we have a story to tell. So let's start internally with our members. You have to start with your members and the others who have a stake in this building and
• 4:16
  then go on. Loren Richmond Jr (31:06) Yeah. Bob Jaeger (31:13) So say there's an AA group. Well, you know, that's complicated because of anonymity and stuff. But there are maybe some people who've kind of been a part of the AA group but are still in the community. really, there's a great story of a church in the East Bay, ⁓ East Bay area of California. A guy was a businessman and he gave a major gift to this Episcopal Church campaign because he said, that AA program housed in your church saved
• 4:20
  my life. Loren Richmond Jr (31:16) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Bob Jaeger (31:41) So every group has an ecosystem of people who care and some of them may be able to help. But it's not just them. So there may be people in the community say, my father goes to the AA group or my brother goes, and I'm grateful that you have provided that space. So, you know, it's there's this whole network that a congregation needs to think about. But it's so different than the old days when you relied on your members, you
• 4:24
  know. Loren Richmond Jr (31:56) Yeah. Yeah. Right. Bob Jaeger (32:09) So we do training on all this kind of thing, our new dollars training. I'll often say, you know, well, what have we relied on all these years for our funding? They all raise their hands saying, our members. Yeah, that's, you know, that's the way it should be. But, you know, that's a luxury that a lot of us can't afford anymore. Loren Richmond Jr (32:22) Yeah. Mm-hmm. You've talked in this conversation already about, you
• 4:28
  know, waiting too long. Things get too bad too late. Certainly I've been involved with efforts to develop land, land for affordable housing, you know, which certainly I believe in and we need more of, but those kinds of moonshots, we've talked about this before, can be difficult as They require so much labor and capital and just time. How do you make sure, A, like you're not waiting too long or B, is there a, I don't know, do you encourage churches to start smaller? Like, what do you, what do
• 4:32
  you advise churches? Bob Jaeger (33:17) Well, I would agree that affordable housing is fantastic. And it's the topic of the moment. Everybody's talking about it. And a lot of congregations have a parking lot or vacant land or open space. ⁓ But as you just said, it's an enormous undertaking. And normally you have to partner with a developer and it's just. Loren Richmond Jr (33:21) Right. Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (33:39) It's a huge thing. And I think it's beyond a lot of congregations to do that.
• 4:36
  So one of things I say is look at what you have already. Rather than taking on a $10 million project next door, which probably will take a decade or more to make happen, why don't you look at the empty Sunday School wing? And could you do tiny homes in your Sunday School wing? Loren Richmond Jr (33:49) Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (34:04) You know, that's development too. And we've had discussions internally about this, you know, because I think we have to really think about our terms. So
• 4:40
  people think of development as building brand new on. or a completely empty building being converted to something. But churches often have enormous amounts of space, tens of thousands of square feet sometimes. So you can start there and say, all right, could we partner with a nonprofit or maybe even a developer, depending on the size of the building, and consider housing or something else? And because it's an existing building, Loren Richmond Jr (34:20) Right. Right. Bob Jaeger (34:42) And
• 4:44
  because it may be housing or maybe a nonprofit cause that the Congress really cares about, that may be much more manageable. And it's really an extension of what they may do already. They may do something on a small scale. Well, can they do something on a larger scale? So we're working with an Episcopal church in Syracuse, for example, that Loren Richmond Jr (34:49) Mm-hmm. Right. Bob Jaeger (35:01) We've done a lot with them. They've been through our training. They're part of our national
• 4:48
  fund. We helped them do a design charrette to help them think about their space. They had a whole kind of parish house that was once occupied by the cathedral staff, I mean, by the diocesan staff because it was the cathedral. And then the diocese moved out of town. So they had a lot of space and they were overwhelmed by it and thinking, well, how do we participate in the turnaround of downtown Syracuse? Because... The downtown is really having a resurgence. And they did some asset mapping with
• 4:52
  the community to get their input. They got architects involved to imagine how the spaces could be used. They had to think about where could an elevator go. And they ended up with tiny houses. So they actually have, they're going to have two market-grade apartments and a series of tiny houses meant for a particular population that's underserved in Syracuse. ⁓ So they're looking at existing space. Loren Richmond Jr (35:46) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (36:00) It's still a big undertaking.
• 4:56
  And they've basically, they have a long-term lease with a nonprofit that's managing the conversion of the space to these small homes. So it's not like it's a walk in the park, but it's much, much easier than building a, you know, five-story, 40-unit building, say. And I think that is very telling and encouraging. Loren Richmond Jr (36:14) Right. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (36:26) Because, know, we all know, I mean, how often do you see a congregation from the 1950s or with an addition from the 50s with
• 5:00
  20 classrooms where the Sunday school was in its heyday, right? So we know so many congregations that just don't know what to do. So I think that's, again, going back to what we were talking about earlier, I think part of our job is to try to help. Loren Richmond Jr (36:36) Right. Right. Bob Jaeger (36:51) then think through what is, you one thing we say is that your building should have a mission. You should think about what is the mission of your building separate from the mission of the
• 5:04
  congregation. Can we help you think about that? And can we help you be in conversation with your community and bring them in and together think about what might be the best use for this space? Loren Richmond Jr (36:57) Yeah. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (37:15) And we love working with architects because they can help a congregation reimagine that space. They can create drawings. They can help a congregation think in new ways about that space. that kind of, all those steps can help them move closer and
• 5:08
  closer to making it a reality. You know, if you do asset mapping properly and you have the right people in the room, including like maybe local foundations, you may be halfway to getting support you need to make that thing happen. Loren Richmond Jr (37:21) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (37:43) So St. Paul's Episcopal Church in downtown Syracuse, they've raised millions of dollars now and they're actually doing the work. Loren Richmond Jr (37:49) Hmm. This makes me wonder. Like I've, I've heard
• 5:12
  of some scenarios where the church will, you know, they'll have a separate nonprofit that'll own the building. Is that a viable strategy in some scenarios? Bob Jaeger (38:04) Yes, you know, the nonprofit can have different purposes. I think the simplest that we often advocate is a separate nonprofit that can help you raise money. Because in your community, there may be people of different faith traditions who are not quite comfortable cutting a check, going directly to your congregation. Loren
• 5:16
  Richmond Jr (38:07) Mm-hmm. Okay. Right. Bob Jaeger (38:26) But if it's a separate secular nonprofit whose purpose is, it could be very narrow, we're simply here to help you raise money to fix the building. It could be a little broader, we're here to help you raise money for the building and for your programming. It could even be broader, we're here to help you manage the building. Loren Richmond Jr (38:32) Right. Yeah. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (38:46) There's a church, there's a Methodist church
• 5:20
  in my neighborhood in West Philadelphia where that's, it's called the Calvary Center for Culture and Community. And they actually schedule everything in the building. They hire staff to manage the building and they raise money for the building. So, and then of course it could serve other purposes like development. But we often say, ⁓ you know, start perhaps a little more modestly. Loren Richmond Jr (38:57) Mm-hmm. Right. Bob Jaeger (39:12) The simplest thing to do is, and by the way, the nice
• 5:24
  thing about this nonprofit is it's a great excuse to go to people in the community to serve on that board if they're in agreement with you on its purpose and they like what you do in the community. So, because that board should probably be half people from the church and half from outside. Well, this is a great opportunity to have a neighborhood association involved or a local foundation involved or a local business involved because that's... Loren Richmond Jr (39:21) Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 5:28
  Bob Jaeger (39:41) That's a leitmotif when I talk to congregations. That's a leitmotif. Find ways to engage with people outside, you know, and so forming a separate nonprofit is one way to do it. You know, working with an architect, as simple as that may sound. Doing planning. You've now got a friend who knows your building and understands its needs and might stay with you for decades. Loren Richmond Jr (39:50) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (40:06) But when we work with churches, we ask them,
• 5:32
  how many of you have a working relationship with an architect? Almost nobody. Very, very rare. So, you know, there's a larger thing here. know, find ways to get out there and connect to people and invite them to be part of your life. And again, they may not darken your door on Sunday morning, but they care about you and they want to help you. And it's part of your family, right? Loren Richmond Jr (40:13) Very few, yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. I'm appreciating in this conversation, sort of about
• 5:36
  urbanism, we're being serenaded by traffic noises, which I think is very appropriate. You know, the church is part of the community. I want to ask this too. think one of the things that frankly pains me is I, I've heard denominational leaders say like, Hey, we're not in the property management business, which I think it's like absolutely the wrong thing to say. Like, do you agree? What do you think? Bob Jaeger (40:43) Right. man, I think they're overwhelmed. think they sometimes say that out
• 5:40
  of exhaustion, overwhelmed. The fact is they are in the property management business, whether they like it or not. You know, same with pastors. Sadly, they're not really trained in how to steward the building and make the most of it. So they kind of learn on the job, right? But, you know, and I understand judicatory leaders don't want to deal with this because they've got other priorities. But... Loren Richmond Jr (41:08) Yeah, I think that's a lot of it too. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Bob Jaeger
• 5:44
  (41:34) You know, another way to look at it is we, this is a legacy. Our forefathers and foremothers invested in this place and built this place. And we have served our community all these years. Don't we have a responsibility to make sure, even if we have to close, that this remains an asset for everybody? And if you really care about the people around that place, you know, the answer should be yes. So how do you do that? Loren Richmond Jr (41:42) Mm-hmm. Yes. Bob Jaeger (42:03) And, and yet
• 5:48
  I understand judicatories that are overwhelmed might say, Hey, we're just going to turn it over the realtor and we're going to get what we can. You know, you hear that attitude and I understand that. I understand that, but you know, we believe in these places. We really do. And we know they're, I often say a building can lift you up or it can drag you down depending on how you manage it. Loren Richmond Jr (42:13) all the time. sacred. Yes. Yes. Bob Jaeger (42:28) Can we help you manage it
• 5:52
  better? Can we help you make the most of it so it doesn't drag you down? ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (42:34) Yeah. Well, before we take a break, let me ask you this. What is like something you'd advise? One, two, three things, whatever a church needs to do like right now. Bob Jaeger (42:47) I would say connect to the world of nonprofits that can offer different kinds of support, whether it's a grant to help you repair your building, whether it's a nonprofit that can help you think about your
• 5:56
  building's purpose, whether it's a group that can help you think about your open space, whether it's a group that can help you fundraise differently. Whether it's, you know, one of the things we do, as I say, is connect congregations to design professionals to help them visualize. Loren Richmond Jr (42:53) Hmm. Bob Jaeger (43:17) So I think connecting and engaging with leaders and nonprofits who share your values. The thing is, I think a lot of people in the nonprofit world don't really
• 6:00
  understand what congregations are going through, and they don't really understand what they offer. They've not been in those buildings in years. Just a quick anecdote, we were working with a major ⁓ funder in Detroit. Loren Richmond Jr (43:34) Mm-hmm. Right. Bob Jaeger (43:45) about a whole line of great churches along Woodward Avenue, which is kind of the main drag of Detroit. And so we did some preliminary investigation. Most of them were half empty or three quarters empty. And no one knew.
• 6:04
  The civic community had no idea what these places offered. So I think, you know, congregations are wise to connect to people in the design world. Loren Richmond Jr (43:51) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (44:15) fundraising world, the ecosystem that we occupy. You we're not the only ones, of course. We have a particular point of view, of course, but there are some terrific resources out there. So that's what I would advise. Connect, talk to them, bring them in, work with them, and they
• 6:08
  will have a lot to offer you. Loren Richmond Jr (44:20) Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, I'm thinking of like, I'm thinking of the work of someone like Ryan Bird, for instance, who's a sociologist, but talks clearly about like the sociological value of church. And to me, like that's another thing that churches should be talking about to funders who are outside the church and say, like, look at all the good that, that church does for communities and for people. Like you should want to invest in this, even
• 6:12
  if you're not a person of faith, because like there's clearly economic or Bob Jaeger (44:50) you Loren Richmond Jr (45:06) or mental health sociological impact, ⁓ I'm thinking. Bob Jaeger (45:08) And the congregations we work with want to welcome everybody. That's another misconception that's held is that they're only like looking at a little narrow slice, but they want, they want to welcome people. They want diversity. They want diversity in their communities. They want diversity in what
• 6:16
  they do. And ⁓ so I think that's a misunderstanding that funders sometimes have is that they have a very narrow kind of ⁓ appeal and they only want to work with their own kind. Loren Richmond Jr (45:13) Right, right, right. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (45:38) and that's almost always not true, especially in urban environments, think. know, congregations generally, you know, of all kinds, all different traditions, they tend to be open and they want to be serving everybody and they just need a helping
• 6:20
  hand. Loren Richmond Jr (45:39) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking of, can't remember the name of the church, but you talking about Detroit. I grew up Baptist and in, my Baptist world, there was a church in Detroit that was kind of started the whole kind of this Baptist movement I was a part of. And I just happened to, cause I found this old book in my dad's collection that had the church on the cover. And I happened to go find that church on Google maps and it was like, Bob
• 6:24
  Jaeger (46:20) Mmm. Loren Richmond Jr (46:22) shuttered and, you know, falling apart basically. And it was sort of really kind of saddened me to think that, you know, it was a, a powerful space and 75, 80 years ago that now it was basically, you know, caving in on itself. Bob Jaeger (46:23) ⁓ Yeah. And that was. Well, you know, that's where I cut my teeth, Detroit, because I was grew up in the suburbs, but that's where I cut my teeth. So after I discovered those stained glass windows in
• 6:28
  Ann Arbor, I spent the next couple of years before I went to work for IBM. I would explore. mean, literally. Loren Richmond Jr (46:44) Yeah. Bob Jaeger (46:57) I don't know, maybe 30, 40, 50 churches across Detroit and knock on the door. They probably thought that was crazy. Can I come in? I'd like to just photograph the windows and just see it. And ⁓ I loved it. And, you know, there are the usual Protestant congregations, but Loren Richmond Jr (47:00) Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (47:15)
• 6:32
  Detroit at one point was heavily, heavily Catholic and heavily Polish. So Polish churches alone, there were several monumental buildings. you know, I grew up here, I am a suburban Presbyterian getting to know these Catholic churches. It was like a revelation. yeah, totally. And Detroit, fortunately, is turning around now. When I went to downtown, Loren Richmond Jr (47:17) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (47:37) I hadn't been there in like maybe 15 years. So about five years ago, I was
• 6:36
  downtown and I almost started to weep because the turnaround was so beautiful and so many empty buildings had been restored and new things were happening in them. ⁓ So the guy who owns ⁓ Quicken Loans, I think it is, he grew up in suburban Detroit and he's helped form a Loren Richmond Jr (47:43) Wow. Wow. Okay. Bob Jaeger (48:06) like a non-profit or a development corporation that's done a lot of this work. So, you know, for somebody who hadn't been there in years, was a revelation. Loren
• 6:40
  Richmond Jr (48:14) Well, it's not a church, but I'm just thrilled to see what is the Michigan train station coming back to life. Yeah. Wow. What a, what a gorgeous space that is. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, we could continue talking. ⁓ think about this all day. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back with some closing questions. Bob Jaeger (48:20) Yes, Michigan Central, yes. Yeah, that's Ford that did that. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. Loren Richmond Jr (48:37) All right. We're back with
• 6:44
  Bob Yeager and thanks so much for this conversation. I hope it's helpful for our listeners. I've enjoyed it. Some closing questions you're welcome to take as seriously or not as you'd like to. So let me maybe frame the Pope question this way. Like I think I've, I've heard it said and it's probably true. Like the Catholic church is probably the biggest owner of property in the, in the world. Like if you're Pope for a day, like what are you thinking about? Like, how are you managing all that
• 6:48
  property? What are you thinking about? how to handle that property. Bob Jaeger (49:11) Great question. And of course, in many dioceses, parishes have closed. you know, the Pope or any Archbishop is very aware that you could move in that direction and close many more parishes. And I think I'd go back to what we were discussing earlier. I would say, all right, I don't want to do any more of that than I have to. But how can I broaden the support for these parishes? They may never be the size they
• 6:52
  once were. Loren Richmond Jr (49:15) Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (49:39) Say it's a Polish parish and they're all dispersed across the region. Loren Richmond Jr (49:40) Yeah. Right. Bob Jaeger (49:42) They come back, but not in the numbers. So what could we do to get the larger community around that church to take an interest, Polish or not? And I think that's what I would do is encourage some creative thinking and encourage this kind of community engagement. That's the
• 6:56
  term we use a lot, community engagement. How can you get the community interested? Invite them in and invite them to help you think about this. I think that is not a complete answer, but that's a partial answer. Loren Richmond Jr (50:01) Mm-hmm. Right, right, right. Yeah. I remember like years ago when I was serving at a small church, kind of on the edge of the city, what had once been a agrarian area that becoming ex-urban, if that makes sense. And yeah, I remember being blocks away, like
• 7:00
  two blocks away in neighborhoods and being like, yeah, I'm the pastor at such and such church. It's, it's right there. And they're like, what? I've never seen that church. I'm like, you probably drive by it every day. Bob Jaeger (50:41) Right. Loren Richmond Jr (50:41) ⁓ Just getting people to come on and stand there and be like, this church exists. That could be a win in itself. Bob Jaeger (50:46) Right, right, they just don't even see it anymore. It's just a part of the wallpaper for
• 7:04
  them, yes. Loren Richmond Jr (50:50) Yeah, yeah. A theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life? Or, you know, maybe if someone who cared about buildings, I don't know. Take it how you want it. Bob Jaeger (51:02) Well, one of the great figures in my world is a guy named Viollet Le Duc. His name came up when Notre Dame in Paris suffered that fire because in the mid-19th century, was famous because Notre Dame, you may recall, had been neglected. You know,
• 7:08
  the hunchback of Notre Dame. Loren Richmond Jr (51:08) Hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (51:24) made that clear. You know, it's a novel of course about the hunchback of Notre Dame, it was all that the church was a character in that novel and the novelist was making the point that the church was worn down. And so Ville LaDuke was asked to help oversee the repair of the building and and restoration and adding things that were never there. So the 19th century idea of Gothic. And so that included
• 7:12
  the flesh that burned and then collapsed. That was Ville Le Duc's work. So he was a preservationist, but also a designer, and he wanted to bring new life to an urban. Loren Richmond Jr (51:51) Hmm. Hmm Bob Jaeger (52:08) sacred place that we all now love. We love that place, of course. So I think that's, you know, it would be fantastic to have a figure like that come into modern-day America and get and bring his perspective. Like how can we keep the life and build the life of these places and
• 7:16
  invest in them? Loren Richmond Jr (52:09) Hmm. Yeah, right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (52:29) and see them as, you know, as community places, as public places, not just as place for one tradition. And ⁓ in a way, I think it's redefining them. You know, and now in France, you know, that was a Catholic place and it was received as a Catholic place for the larger nation, but for in Detroit or Philadelphia or Denver. Loren Richmond Jr (52:35) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (52:57)
• 7:20
  How do we begin to these places as public assets? Loren Richmond Jr (53:00) Yeah, yeah. What do you think history will remember from our current time and place? Bob Jaeger (53:09) Well, I think it's a time of change and maybe there are signs that there's a turnaround. ⁓ You know, I hear these anecdotes that people, at least some people may be coming back ⁓ to church. I think I've seen some indications that civic leaders are willing to see them as assets for the community and willing to invest
• 7:24
  in them. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (53:22) Yeah, yeah. Bob Jaeger (53:35) I mean, that's one of our jobs, by the way, is to broaden philanthropic interest in sacred places. And there are some indications of that. You know, we're working with one funder that they're not interested necessarily in funding churches per se, but they don't want to see them lost as community resources. Loren Richmond Jr (53:41) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (53:55) So they're helping us do our transitions work
• 7:28
  so that if First Baptist Church has to close, that it's not lost as an asset to the community. And so they're not a religious funder at all. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (54:02) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bob Jaeger (54:08) ⁓ The funder for our black churches program in Philadelphia, they do not fund religion, but they see these as key to communities of color. These places are key. So we need to find a way to invest in them. ⁓ that's encouraging. I think maybe this is a turning point for the better. ⁓ Loren
• 7:32
  Richmond Jr (54:13) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I hope so. hope so. What do you hope for the future of Christianity? Bob Jaeger (54:35) Well, you know, it's not monolithic, as you know. You know, we mentioned the mega churches. We've talked about the mainline protestors. We've talked about Catholics, evangelical protestors, the black Protestant church. ⁓ It's a rich, varied world. Loren Richmond Jr (54:43) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Bob Jaeger (54:56) which makes it wonderful. I love that. I love the fact
• 7:36
  that we work with all these traditions. ⁓ And as I say, there's a lot of churn. So yes, churches are closing, but other ones are forming. ⁓ And I'm hoping that the faith will find new ways to thrive. And by the way, know, we work to help congregations thrive, not just survive, but to thrive. Loren Richmond Jr (55:07) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Bob Jaeger (55:24) But they're going to need to do things differently, right? And I think that's, I think the faith will thrive, but I think to do so,
• 7:40
  especially in our older neighborhoods, they're going to have to do things differently. Loren Richmond Jr (55:38) Right. Right. Bob Jaeger (55:42) That's my hope. Loren Richmond Jr (55:44) Well, I think this is great. Again, I hope it's helpful for listeners. really appreciate your time and what you brought to the conversation. Where can people connect with you with sacred spaces? What's your website? All that stuff. Bob Jaeger (55:49) Yes, thank you. We're at sacredplaces.org and I'd
• 7:44
  encourage folks to come and take a look around because they can get our magazine, Sacred Places Magazine, for free. We have a lot of resources that free on our website. And I think what I would really encourage listeners to do is say, all right, if I know a congregation that really could use some help. ⁓ you know, figuring out what to do with this building or figuring out a way to fix the roof, please connect them to us. Cause there, you know, when I often speak, I'll say this is a challenging
• 7:48
  time for sake of places, but it's also a promising time. Yes, congregations are stressed, but there are more resources available than ever before. So it's, you know, it's Loren Richmond Jr (56:34) Yeah. Bob Jaeger (56:43) It's both. And so there's a lot out there, a lot that we have and others have. So I would encourage listeners to look at our website, to reach out to us. Our national fund, by the way, we just got 450 some applications. The application deadline was Tuesday. So what, three
• 7:52
  days ago, we got several hundred applications. That's an incredible resource. And every year in January, February, we welcome new applications. And those grants are now half a million dollars often. Loren Richmond Jr (57:10) Yeah. Bob Jaeger (57:13) So, you know, there's a lot to tap. And that's what I encourage your listeners to do is reach out and tap those resources. Ask us questions. know, download a publication. We do training. So if you're a part of a, like if you're a Methodist or
• 7:56
  Presbyterian or Lutheran and you have a denominational body, they can bring us on to do training, capacity building. There's a lot out there that we can offer. Loren Richmond Jr (57:40) Well, this has been so great and I think what I'm hearing from this, if anything, is like it's not a lack of resources, it's like a lack of imagination and that's what y'all are really trying to do. Yeah. Well, we always leave folks with a word of peace, so may God's peace be with you. Bob Jaeger (57:50) Yes.
• 8:00
  Yeah. and you as well. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. All right, take care. Loren Richmond Jr (57:59) Yeah, thank you.