Latest / Beautifully Complex / 342 Pressure Isn’t Motivating, It’s Actually Dysregulating, with Penny Williams

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342 Pressure Isn’t Motivating, It’s Actually Dysregulating, with Penny Williams · Beautifully Complex

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: We're coming into it with the best of intentions, out
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: of love, out of caring, out of trying to prepare
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: them to be an adult, to prepare them for a
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: successful future. Right, But we are actually doing things that
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: cause discomfort, that cause harm. This isn't the kind of
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: discomfort that's good, that helps to build grit and resilience.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: This is the kind of discomfort that shuts everything down.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: if you want more support, join our free community at
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Welcome back, parents, I
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: am thrilled to have you here joining me for another
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: episode of Beautifully Complex this week. Today, I want to
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: talk to you about how pressure isn't motivating, it's actually
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: just regulating. We live in a culture, in an age
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: where we are told that if we just push a
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: little more, that kids will rise to the occasion. And
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: this is especially true in our education system. The whole
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: crux of teaching and getting kids to do what you're
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: asking them to do is by putting pressure on them.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: You're getting graded, Your grades matter, to go to college.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: College matters to be a successful adult. And so many
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: of those things aren't necessarily true, and they're not true
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: for everyone, but our system and our society has adopted
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: this belief that pressure is motivating and the opposite is
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: actually true. Pressure is going to disregulate the nervous system,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: and when the nervous system is disregulated, the access to
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: the thinking brain dims, and if we are disregulated enough,
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: access to the thinking brain is cut off entirely. So
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: we are pushing to get this kid to do this
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: thing we want them to do, and what we are
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: creating is an environment where they have less capability of
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: doing the thing that we want them to do. And
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: so we are sort of shooting ourselves in the foot
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: with this idea that pressure will motivate. And when we
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: add in that layer of neurodivergence, many of our kids
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: are even more sensitive to the pressure, so it has
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: an even greater impact of dysregulation and creating an environment
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: where capability is cut off capability is lost. I know
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: that there's so many times as a parent where you
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: feel like you've got to add some pressure because things
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: are not happening. And we know that ADHD brains are
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: kind of sparked. Everything gets online and working at full
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: capacity by urgency and interest, but not by importance. And
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: so when we have something that's important and our kids
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: don't feel that it's important or they're just not able
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: to get something done solely on the basis that it's important,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: then we add pressure. That is our go to and
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: it's what we're taught. I'm not blaming anyone. I'm not
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: shaming anyone. It is absolutely one hundred percent the way
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: we were raised in what we're taught. But now that
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: we are getting to know the nervous system better, we
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: are getting to know that this is a fallacy and
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: we have to pivot and make a change because the
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: more pressure we add to our nerdivergent kids, the less
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: capable they are of doing the thing that we're asking them,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: the less doability exists in that scenario. I learned this
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: lesson the really hard way from my own kid, who
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: finally around high school age, was able to tell me
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: the more pressure you put on me, the less I
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: am able to do what you're asking, and the less
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: I want to do what you're asking. So that's a
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: double whammy against us right there. And we're coming into
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: it with the best of intentions, out of love, out
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: of caring, out of trying to prepare them to be
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: an adult, to prepare them for a successful future. Right,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: But we are actually doing things that cause discomfort, that
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: cause harm. This isn't the kind of discomfort that's good,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: that helps to build grit and resilience. This is the
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: kind of discomfort that shuts everything down, makes our kids
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: withdraw from us, because if we're constantly putting pressure on them,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: and pressure makes them shut down, pressure makes them dysregulated,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: it makes them feel bad, then they're gonna stop talking
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: to us. So we don't have the opportunity to put
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: that pressure on them. Right, That's what any human being
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: would do. It's just common sense. So we're coming from
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: love and fear, not cruelty. But we have to make
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: a pivot. Pressure just does not create motivation. It is
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: actually read by the autonomic nervous system as threat. I
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: want you to hear that, So I'm gonna say it again.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Pressure is read by the autonomic nervous system as threat.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: And when the nervous system thinks that there is a threat,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: when it senses danger, whether it's physical danger, emotional, mental, psychological,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: social learning, and cognitive, any of those dangers, the nervous
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: system is looking for them and it is going to
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: instinctually respond in dysregulated ways to try to protect. So
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: you're going to see fight flight or freeze. So we're
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: trying to create motivation, but we're actually creating challenging behavior
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: and less doability. Now that we understand the body and
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: the nervous system, we know that when pressure rises, the
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: thinking brain dims. That bodyguard is stepping in to protect
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: because it has sensed danger that pressure, and what happens
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: is we get a whole lot of responses that we
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: don't want that are not helpful for anyone. And let
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: me just also, our kids don't want to either. Our
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: kids do not want to be in fight flight or
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: phrase either. No one enjoys that. They want to be
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: able to meet your expectations, to please you, to do
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: what you're asking. But when we add pressure as a
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: mechanism to sort of force compliance, if we're being real
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: about it, we are actually making things less doable, and
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: that behavior is a signal. It is a signal that
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: there's too much pressure. We need to pull back, We
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: need to potentially lower demands or expectations, not forever. We're
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: not being permissive, We're not giving up on our kids.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: We are just stretching the timeline. When we interpret avoidance
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: as laziness, adding pressure is going to create more avoidance,
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: not less. When we interpret shutdown as refusal, that pressure
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: is going to create more shutdown, not less. When we
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: interpret resistance as defiance, you guessed it, we are going
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: to create more resistance, not less resistance. So how do
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: we support our kids? How do we help to make
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: sure things get done without using pressure as the tool,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: Because it is a broken tool, it is not going
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: to be helpful. Here are some phrases that I often
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: hear from parents that are actually pressure. You're capable of
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: more if you try harder, you could do it. You
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: were able to do it yesterday. Why can't you do
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: it today? This isn't hard. You need to learn to
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: push through. Sometimes it's I'm going to ground you, I'm
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: going to take away your electronics. I'm going to give
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: you this other punishment, Because punishment is also a form
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: of pressure, pressuring a kid to make different choices, and
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: that's why it often backfires. For our nerdivergent kids. Support
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: sounds a whole lot different. It might be something about
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: this feels like too much. I notice that you seem
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: to be overwhelmed right now. Let's figure out what your
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: system needs first. Let's figure out how to help your
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: body feel more steady first. The key distinction here is
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: that expectations without regulation cannot be met, and that creates
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: rupture in our relationships with our kids. When we are regulated,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: we have access to skills. We have access to the
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: thinking brains, we have access to executive functioning skills. We
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: have access to all of the skills that we've been learning.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: We have access to problem solving and strategizing, and these
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: are all crucial to being able to get things done,
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: especially in the ways that our parents and our educators
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: expect us to. Yes, there's some grief within this conversation.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: I know that that is true. I know that that
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: is real for most of you. It's not that we
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: have to do everything differently for our kids. We are
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: actually teaching a skill that would make the human experience
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: better for all of us. Self regulation, emotional regulation leads
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: to a more fulfilling life for every human being. So
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: we are actually paying attention to something that every parent,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: every educator should already be paying attention to. We didn't
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: know that until recently, but now we know, and that's
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: why we're having conversations like these. Letting go of timelines,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: letting go of comparing your kid to other peers, letting
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: go of this path or this success that you imagine
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: for your kid is really hard. You don't necessarily have
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: to let go of these things forever. It is a
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: not yet, not a not ever. When my son was young,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: I spent years trying to track all the variables to
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: determine what was actually working medications, therapies, routines, school accommodations,
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: but there was no system or structure to help me
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: capture it all. I dreamed of an app that could
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: help me see the patterns that I knew were there
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: but I wasn't finding on my own. And that's exactly
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: what Village Metrics does. Here's how it works. You open
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: the app, press record and just talk about your child's day.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: That's it. The AI pulls out patterns, It tracks what's working,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: and it connects insights from everyone in your child's life.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: The therapist, teachers, other caregivers are all in one place.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Within weeks, you'll see things that you have been missing,
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: what's triggering the meltdowns or shutdowns, what's actually making a difference.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: You finally stop second guessing yourself because now you know.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Now you have the data. It takes two minutes to
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: set up, and there's a free trial, so you've got
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: nothing to lose. Go to villagemetrics dot com and try
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: it today. That's villagemetrics dot com. So let's talk about
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: what does actually build motivation here? Because I have just
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: debunked the idea that adding pressure to kids or adults
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: builds motivation. We know that it is disrupting the nervous system,
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: is causing dysregulation, is causing the thinking brain and strategies
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: and skills to be unattainable. So what does build motivation?
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: It is an outcome. It's not a lever. It's not
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: a lever that we can pull and increase the motivation
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: in our kid whenever we want to do it. It
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: is an outcome of circumstances, environment and things like that.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: So it grows from felt safety, which we're just talking
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: about that is not just physical safety, psychological, emotional, mental, cognitive,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: social safety, all of those areas. Predictability, increases, do ability,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: small doable wins, noticing them, so we're not just creating them.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: That's very, very important because when our kid has wins,
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: they are more likely to be willing and able to
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: challenge themselves more and to keep trying. But we have
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: to notice them. We have to say out loud, I
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: saw this thing that happened. You don't have to offer
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: trumped up praise, but you do have to notice and
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: help your kid to notice it as well. And then
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: motivation also grows from autonomy that is supported and not forced.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: So we're not cutting kids off, we're not letting them fail.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: That is not do anyone any favors. I would never
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: ever advise for a family to let a kid fail.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: But we are offering bounded choices, bounded control, bounded autonomy.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Me the more that a kid feels like they're in control,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: the less anxiety they're going to have, the less disregulation
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: they're going to have, so the more opportunity for motivation
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: that they have. And sometimes when something is up to
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: you and you got to choose. You have more buy in,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: so you're going to have more engagement. Let's think about
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: how this needs to be more of a relief for
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: you and not a responsibility. I don't want you to
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: think about the fact that we need to stop pressuring
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: our kids as yet another thing that you need to
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: put on your to do list and another thing that
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: you're responsible for on your side of parenting your kid. Instead,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: think about the relief that it will create. This pivot
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: from pulling back on the pressure, letting kids lead more
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: is going to provide relief for both of you. They're
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: going to have relief from the pressure and the dysregulation,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: and you're going to have relief from the power struggle
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: that I know you don't enjoy. You'll be relieved from
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: the nagging that is probably happening and trying to get
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: things done. So reducing pressure isn't lowering the bar. It
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: isn't giving up on our kids. It isn't being permissive
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: of behavior that we don't approve of. It's building the
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: foundation for things to be successful. It's building the foundation
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: for doability. It's building the foundation of willingness of engagement
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: of buy in, all the things that actually do help
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: to create more motivation. So the long game is always
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: nervous system first. Regulation. First, we must be regulated to
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: have access to our thinking brain, the thing brain is
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: where executive function is. What is executive function? It is
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: the skills we need to do things to get things done,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: to manage them. If we don't have access to that,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: nothing can get done. We can't use skills that we
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: know that we are able to use yesterday or last week.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: We can't use strategies that we're taught to us, we
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: can't call on anything that we already know, and we
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: likely can't process language and other input coming at us.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: So with that pressure might be a lot of talking
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: and a lot of language that is just overwhelming your
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: kid's nervous system more and is disregulating them more. So
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: we must be regulated first. Then we can access skills.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Then we can learn now we're available biologically to learn,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: and then later we can add independent skills to that
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: as well. But regulation is the foundation. Nothing else can
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: happen without it. If you have a kid who's more
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: often than not disregulated, very little is getting done and
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: it is definitely not being done efficiently or productively, and
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: there's probably a lot of emotions and a lot of
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: big behaviors too, because regulation has to happen for anything
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: else to happen. This is permission really for you to
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: focus on regulation first. You don't need to focus on
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: getting that mathwork sheet done first. You don't need to
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: focus on your kid's social skills first. You can put
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: that stuff off into the future some because you need
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: to work on regulation first, because that stuff isn't going
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: to get better without that self regulation, that emotional regulation. Okay,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: so let's just wrap up what we've learned here. Make
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: sure is not motivating. Pressure is dysregulating. Pressure reduces or
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: cuts off entirely access to the thinking brain. We need
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: the thinking brain for things to be doable. We need
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: the thinking brain to do tasks. We need it to plan, organize,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: manage time. We need it to call on skills, we
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: need it to call on strategies. So if there's pressure,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: there is no doability. If your kid is sending your
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: signals that pressure is not helping. Listen. When your kid
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: is saying it to you bluntly like my kid did, listen,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: it's still really hard to pivot away from using pressure
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: as a motivator. I still sometimes struggle and I have
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: to catch myself and pull back. It is something that
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: is really ingrained in us over the decades that we
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: have been on this planet and learning from other people.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: There are alternatives, and my favorite alternative, the one that
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: works for my own kid, is I'm here when you're ready.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: I'm here when you need me. How can I help you?
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: What do you need in order to get this thing
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: done that needs to get done? So I'm not going
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: to threaten you. I'm not going to hound you and
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: nag you. I'm not going to push you, but I
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: am here to support and I would like to know
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: what you need so that I can support and then
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: leave it. Just leave it. They may not have a
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: response to that yet. They're not ready for the support,
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: they're not ready to tackle it. They will come around
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: to it. Now. I can hear some of you saying,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: my kid won't come around to it. There's no way.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: If I just don't pressure, nothing's going to get done.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: And for some kids that's true. My kid was not
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: into school. He did not care about his school performance. Yes,
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: he would love to be a straight A student. He
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: would love to have been a good student in the
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: ways that society measures that right, honor, role, good attendance,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: those sorts of things, but it didn't matter enough to
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: him to be able to motivate to do all of
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: the work. So I did have to stay there with
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: some external motivation, but I had to lean into regulation.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: I had to lean into my kid's timeline. I had
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: to lean into the ways that my kid wanted to
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: get things done, and sometimes I had to lower expectations
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: and lower demands to meet times when there was burnout,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: when there was emotional health struggles, mental health struggles. Right,
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: So this can ebb and flow based on meeting your
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: kid where they are on that day, in that moment,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: in that environment. Their nervous system is asking for safety.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: When it senses safety, they are regulated. When they are regulated,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: they can get things done and they can connect with you,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: which I know so many of our families crave that
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: real connection, that parent child relationship that they imagined, and
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: when we add pressure, we're actually pushing that possibility further away.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: So think about connection, Think about how to help your
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: kid regulate and be aware of when you're adding pressure
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: and how you can pull back the pressure. Ask your
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: kid what they need, Ask your kid what will help them,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Ask your kid what their timeline is, and then honor it.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: We have to honor it. Pressure isn't a problem you
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: need to solve. Pressure is something you just need to
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: be aware of and pull back on. Regulation and safety
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: are always the path forward. They're always the foundation for productivity,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: for efficiency, for motivation, for grit, for resilience, all of
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: the things for relationships and social interactions that are positive.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: So focus on how can you reduce pressure? What can
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: you do differently in order to help your kid to
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: be their best version of themselves, to be the best
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: version of who they were supposed to be. Thanks for
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: being here, Thanks for listening. You can go to PARENTINGADHD
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: and autism dot com for the show notes for this
• 23:40
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  Speaker 1: more info at regulated kids dot com.