Latest / Speak In Flow / Mastering the Art of Financial Communication: Navigating Financing Language, Cross-Cultural Nuances, and the Power of Storytelling With Murat Wahab

Transcript

Mastering the Art of Financial Communication: Navigating Financing Language, Cross-Cultural Nuances, and the Power of Storytelling With Murat Wahab · Speak In Flow

0:02
Melinda Lee: Welcome, dear listeners, I'm so glad you're
0:05
here today I have the honour of introducing an amazing guests,
0:10
Murat Wahab He is the founder and principal of Hakeem Saya,
0:16
your global funding partner. He has had over 20 years of
0:22
experience in banking, entrepreneurship, Small Business
0:26
Startup advisory. He's has he provides access to capital to
0:31
domestic and international companies. So he has so much
0:36
wealth of information when it comes to mastering the art of
0:41
financial communication. And I think this is such an important
0:45
topic, I love to just dive right in, and just say hi, Maura,
0:50
thanks for being here.
0:52
Murat Wahab: Oh, hi, Melinda. I just want to first before we get
0:57
started, I just wanted to say thank you so much for inviting
1:00
me. It is an honour and privilege to be here and be part
1:04
of your journey, and for your own podcasts to speak about the
1:11
topics that are dear to my heart, which is that about
1:15
related to banking and finance and also related to
1:19
communication. So the themes for today that you know, that I was
1:24
thinking when you asked me about what are the themes that I want
1:27
to talk about is mastering the art of financial communication,
1:33
and navigating financing language, cross cultural nuances
1:37
in the power of storytelling, which is quite a mouthful, but I
1:42
think your audience will be appreciative can learn one or
1:45
two, hopefully. And by the end when we finish this
1:49
conversation,
1:50
Melinda Lee: I agree, I know that they're going to love this,
1:53
I'm going to learn I can't wait to dive in. So tell me, what is
1:56
it? Why is it important? Why is it so important that we learn
1:59
how to do this,
2:00
Murat Wahab: um, let me just let you know, I've been in banking
2:04
for over Wow, me officially 14 years. And then prior to that I
2:09
was in the hospitality industry for over 13 years here in
2:13
abroad, and then also working in a nonprofit organisation, things
2:17
like that. And with the capacity as a founder and principal of
2:21
hacking Saya, which is your global funding partner. These
2:26
particular themes are very important and relevant,
2:29
especially when intrapreneurs or individual, you know, working in
2:35
an international setting. So the theme itself is encapsulates the
2:40
importance of understanding and effectively using financial
2:45
jargon, like many industry have their own acronyms. You know,
2:50
financing back financial, in banking industry as well have a
2:54
lot of those. So acknowledging the challenges and opportunities
2:58
in doing business cross cultural settings, and emphasise the
3:02
compelling role of storytelling. In financial pitching, it's very
3:07
important, because this is a very comprehensive approach that
3:11
will highlight to me is that the significance of communication
3:16
skills in the world of the business finance, especially in
3:20
the context of international dealings, and also how you
3:24
persuade investors or lenders when you're trying to pitch. So
3:28
in this in today's I plan to clarify to cover a few key
3:32
points or pointers that maybe will help your audience and all
3:36
the listeners who listen to your podcast in three things, which
3:41
is one, the necessity of understanding and using
3:44
financial language effectively, or to the impact of cross
3:49
cultural nuances in international finance. And
3:52
number three, is the role of storytelling in banking,
3:56
financial pitches, engage very engaging and compelling that's
4:00
the kind of things that I want to talk about why the topics
4:04
these are a very important. Okay, and what is it to so what
4:08
is the nuance what is the important start off with there?
4:13
The first one absolute? That's a great question. So didn't know
4:17
ances is basically like, you know, for example, I have a
4:21
client that you know, as, as a, as a founder and principal of
4:26
Arkansas, helping my client, you know, my client come from around
4:30
the world, one particular client basically based in Africa, so
4:33
Africa, you know, just like around the world, people speak
4:36
English, but their English is not really necessarily that you
4:40
can understand, right? Even though that, you know, they
4:44
meant something that you think that you understand, but you
4:47
listening, but if you listen carefully, that's not what it
4:51
meant. So, this communications style that you know, for
4:55
different countries or clients that I work with, particularly
4:58
in Africa, because this is what it is sample that I'm giving. So
5:01
basically, that will, you know, it's critical when we're
5:06
borrower, for example, or the project owners that I dealt with
5:10
that the standard of communications and needs to, at
5:14
least, you know, be understood by both parties, right? This is
5:18
the challenge, because we just because you can speak English
5:22
doesn't mean that, culturally, that you can understand the
5:26
nuances. And sometimes a lot of those borrowers or individual
5:30
when they do business internationally, it just like
5:32
they don't understand the American way, and vice versa, so
5:35
that they don't understand the other quarter like Japanese, the
5:38
Chinese like, and let alone my clients in Africa. So these are,
5:44
this is a challenge, I'm going to go with very specific. One
5:47
example, when when actually working with my in African
5:51
client is that they communicate this way. Like they say that,
5:57
okay, I going to apply for X millions of dollars of loans to
6:03
these lenders, and then they say, an X, Y, and what year they
6:07
say, Okay, on the year one, I'm going to be profitable. So you
6:12
know, these are financial literacy, like, Okay, does it
6:17
make sense on the yo why, and then when you have documentation
6:21
that you provide it like business plan, that you provide
6:24
it to the lenders, it shows differently? Because those
6:28
facts, factual information is not corroborated with what you
6:33
said, and what you prove, because we based on facts and
6:37
figures. So the communication needs to be like embedded, and
6:42
it has to be clear when you communicate that with the
6:45
lender. So can they understand that. So I found that by truly
6:51
get to the point, and shows that figures and make sure that what
6:56
you provide in factual and figures is actually resonate to
7:02
what the documents you're providing, not just saying it.
7:06
Melinda Lee: So when you're working with your client, how
7:10
are you able to decipher and discern what is clear or what is
7:16
not? So he the persons that profitable? I mean, how have you
7:20
done that for so long that you start to make sure that you
7:23
clarify?
7:24
Murat Wahab: Yeah, so this is the beauty of it, because I've
7:27
been in banking and train in the UK commercial training, alright,
7:30
commercial credit trained, and then I have done so many
7:33
different actions and different aspects class. So it's come to
7:38
step into me, isn't nature right? For me? I don't expect
7:43
other people who doesn't have those background be able to dive
7:47
dissects or decipher immediately. So for me it is
7:51
that very easy that immediately that if somebody just say that
7:54
without even saying, I mean, without even actually seeing
7:59
those spreadsheets and whatnot, immediately, I can just gauge
8:04
and saying this is a goal. Is this a no go?
8:07
Because those is based on experience. And it's hard to
8:10
actually say, and of course that behind the scenes that when I
8:14
have the data, I have to do all the financial spreads and
8:17
understanding those data's and communicate to the borrowers.
8:21
And what does that mean? Right, right. So it's always good to
8:26
definitely when you there's something you're not sure of, to
8:30
repeat it, to say it in your own words to make sure the other
8:35
party agrees that yes, libre r&d talking about the same thing.
8:40
All right, cool. Yeah, yes. And it also very helpful basically
8:47
another way the challenge is also about using email. So
8:51
email, email is another thing which is that eats can be a
8:55
lifesaver but it also can be a big hinderance for a lot of the
8:59
borrowers email has a purpose you know, so when these purpose
9:03
that it is to communicate that clearly, however, not everybody
9:08
is a good underwriter but you know, not not not also they're
9:11
not a rap professional writers to make sure that the message
9:16
get across, and typically email I perceive is no soul. There's
9:21
no soul, you cannot see the body language like we speaking right
9:24
now and communicating. So, understand you can say, What do
9:28
you mean? Let me just ask that and let me pause. Can you expand
9:33
a little bit things like that in email is not often working with
9:37
my client and this is miscommunication. And the lender
9:41
misunderstood one thing they the borrower misunderstood another
9:44
thing. So this is because that the level of knowledge and the
9:49
level of experience is dependent on those borrowers that I work
9:54
with, because it doesn't mean that successful businessman they
9:58
know finance thatI mean that right? So they good what they
10:02
do. And similarly, and and I say that you an example of email
10:08
that my clients basically my tip is that when you send email,
10:13
because sometimes the language that you see the word you said
10:16
sometimes you're so used to the let's say the word adapt, what
10:20
does it mean? Adapt? So sometimes the lender was it
10:23
adapt? What What, what are you talking about? Right? And so
10:28
this is the things that I would highly recommend is pick up the
10:31
call, or arrange the Zoom call and speak to me or to the lender
10:38
directly. to iron out like the misunderstanding, because it's
10:42
so easy, especially when you're doing international, you know,
10:46
international setting, it's, it's very easy. This thing
10:50
happened. Right? So do you recommend when you're because we
10:55
have, we're going global? I mean, everybody's working across
10:58
the different nations countries? And so do you recommend when you
11:03
are working across different cultures to just pick up the
11:07
phone? Like how do you know when to email or pick up the phone?
11:11
So of course, there's step by step process. So you have to go
11:15
through the step by step process, there is also that
11:18
initial conversation so initially, you know that you're
11:23
trying to get to know each other it's like a dating right? So you
11:25
kind of like start with you don't do you don't ask for
11:28
marriage proposal, just immediately
11:30
Melinda Lee: ask for money, you're not gonna give me my
11:32
money right away.
11:34
Murat Wahab: We're not gonna give you money, no lender is
11:35
gonna give money like immediately like, right? So you
11:39
have to date and several steps to go through similarly in
11:43
financings that, you know, you have to do preliminary
11:47
documents, for example, the executive summary, business
11:50
plans, your five to 10 years financial projections, your
11:53
management resumes, or your sponsors, background, you know,
11:57
and construction budget, various construction proceed, like like
12:01
that. And then when you start communicating that and then
12:04
allow those lenders like for myself, allow me to do the
12:08
analysis understands those information first, right. And
12:13
sometimes what happened, it was like, Bro are so enthusiastic,
12:17
they just, like, bombarded with so much information. And you
12:20
know, it's too hard when you trying to digest and dissect,
12:25
you know, business plan that 100 pages, for example, to read
12:29
through, let alone the financial that they provided in the
12:32
spreadsheet, it takes time. Right, just to understand that.
12:36
So I think it's very helpful when even communicating, you
12:39
know, if they can speak the language of the finance, like,
12:42
you know, like, we're looking at when it talks about like
12:45
language, we talk about, like, okay, financial ratios, what the
12:48
financial ratio, what their service debt service coverage
12:51
look like, what's the company, you know, ability to service the
12:56
debt that they asking, what is the EBIT? Da? I'm not sure, but
12:59
it'd be like earnings before interest, tax depreciation,
13:02
amortisation? What's the free cash flow? What you know, all of
13:06
these things that is all acronym that they use? So for those who
13:10
are in finance, and banking, maybe sounds simple, but a lot
13:13
of the people just scratch their head, like, what are you asking
13:16
me, you know, so this is important when they should have,
13:20
you know, someone's like the CFO, that they work with that
13:24
understand and then be part of this, sometimes the CEO or the
13:28
owner may think that they know it all, because they know the
13:31
business, but they forget that they are not the masters of
13:34
everything. Right? Right. Right. Right. And it's takes time it
13:39
takes more time to slow down to understand everybody's length to
13:43
have a good communication to understand the language of both
13:47
parties. Like what culture are you dealing with, like make sure
13:50
what if you are pitching that you learn the language as much
13:55
as you can if you're pitching and then opposite side if you
13:59
are maybe a client? Or Or maybe you are the person with a lot of
14:06
technical you're the finance or you have all the jargon you
14:10
know, how do you dumb How do you speak the same language so your
14:13
client understands? Right? I'll give you an example. Right? So,
14:19
Latin America this is and Peru is a term for this you know,
14:23
highly educated individuals, you know, from Oxford and Cambridge,
14:26
you know, like, you know, this is a smart people, but when when
14:30
actually speaking and writing is a different thing and you know
14:33
that because some people like to speak fluently but writing is
14:36
awful and vice versa. Some people like actually writing
14:39
just fantastic flawlessly however, when speaking which is
14:43
like not there. Yeah, it is. This is very common that that
14:47
I've seen. So in this in this example of working like in a
14:52
modern America, you know, smart people and they can speak fluent
14:56
English. So whenever that they put it in writing, for example,
15:00
You know, my friend said, Oh, we, we have this type of
15:04
collateral, X amount of collateral and this unmovable
15:08
collateral like assets like land or buildings, whatnot. And then
15:11
what he meant by you know, this asset that, that he, he took it
15:16
for granted in understanding that the lender probably will
15:20
understood what he said. So, assuming is not good, because
15:25
the lender then come back when you say, What are you talking
15:28
about? You know, then what we asked you for, right? Why? Why
15:33
are you saying this? So, so this is what I say is just like that
15:38
I have to intervene and then just to get the lender and read
15:41
it like, Listen, Mr. Lender, this is not what my client
15:45
actually shared that with you and understand, what he's trying
15:51
to tell you is this. He has those collateral, he can pledge
15:55
the collateral, right? If you were to ask, and then this
15:59
collateral that he asked that, that he can pledge to secure the
16:04
funding is basically free and clear. You know, some of the
16:08
words they don't use, like free and clear. Sometimes they use
16:10
what incumbrances They use the word, you know, like, it's very
16:14
the language in itself. It's like, not that it's kind of
16:19
getting away sometimes.
16:20
Melinda Lee: And so what do you really totally I mean,
16:22
basically, okay, jargon is one thing. Jargon is completely
16:28
almost encrypted. And slang is always encrypted. Those are
16:32
obvious and then there's like, what you're saying to me just
16:35
basic words. Adapt profitable, you know, you profitability
16:41
could be kind of hard to but even adapt or accommodate, like,
16:45
even those one the words that are you feel like could be very
16:48
clear. It's not,
16:50
Murat Wahab: it's not like, you know, it's so funny sometimes
16:55
that when you hear this good bunch is not funny in a way that
16:58
it's lost in translation. It does. It does loss in
17:02
translation, and sometimes that my client is do I advise them?
17:06
If you were to write in English, maybe if you are fluent in
17:11
Spanish, kind of like have both? Yeah, just just kind of like to
17:17
knowing the fact that you know, the, the other side of the world
17:22
actually speak other languages, maybe French or Spanish by
17:25
Spanish, for example, like, you know, it's the second language
17:28
that in Latin America that mostly beside Portuguese, so, so
17:32
I would say yeah, then will be very helpful to have that your
17:37
two languages, you know, avoid from Miss understanding because
17:42
you're more comfortable on your own language.
17:44
Melinda Lee: Right, right. Right, right. Oh, yeah, I'm
17:46
learning Mandarin right now. This I'm gonna get on my
17:50
Mandarin classes even more.
17:52
Murat Wahab: Yeah, you know what, I used to work in Vietnam
17:54
before when I was in the hospitality, you know, that I
17:57
did. You know, I studied Italian. And I was in Vietnam.
18:03
And then when I studied some Vietnamese, Vietnamese
18:06
languages, so like, very, very difficult and challenging. And
18:10
one example is the word like, you know, because there are
18:13
different tone when you learn Mandarin, there's a different
18:15
tone. So for example, the word chicken like in Vietnam,
18:18
Vietnamese, like God, they will select No, we don't pronounce
18:21
God the God like almost like longer. I always butchered them,
18:27
and I messed up, right. So this is the example like, that's what
18:32
I say like, you know, you think, no, but actually, you don't know
18:35
because of that, that dust. There is a difference meaning
18:38
for that? Oh, yeah, just like a simple tone. Just like if you
18:41
just go up a little bit too high changes higher meaning? Yeah.
18:46
Yeah. And then also the financial jargon in banking is I
18:49
see like these AML the ATA the OCC FRB, you know, so almost
18:54
like, what is that?
18:56
Melinda Lee: Yeah.
18:58
Murat Wahab: You know, like, for example, we say you need to
19:00
actually pass the factor of the FCRA. Like, of aliens that
19:07
Melinda Lee: English is already hard enough. The regular spoken
19:11
word, so
19:13
Murat Wahab: yeah, you biotech basically is a lot more. Yes.
19:19
Yes. So for all the people that are out there that are in
19:22
technology, or in your own industry with very specific
19:26
niche language, just remember that English is already hard
19:30
enough. So when you're talking to a client or a key
19:32
stakeholder, or you're someone else that you need to either
19:36
pitch or make an offer, you know, just remember that some of
19:39
those languages it's very difficult for other people and
19:42
so just consider your audience always consider your audience.
19:45
Perhaps their style of communication style of
19:49
communication is important. What is her personality type? Do they
19:52
like a lot of details, or do they like just very bullet in to
19:57
the point, right, yeah, another call
20:00
Melinda Lee: Sure, like you mentioned, culture is important,
20:02
and especially if you're doing international work, right, what
20:04
is their culture? Because now you're layering on another
20:08
aspect that you really need to consider one word, what you
20:11
think might mean completely something different in another
20:14
culture, right? Or what
20:17
Murat Wahab: exactly, is it's a very different world. And then I
20:21
agree that with you that know your audience, would you do and
20:25
now don't assume things that just because that everybody
20:29
speak English, when they understand English? No, the
20:32
understanding is a little bit more different than you never
20:35
insulted the internet. They're intelligent, obviously. But
20:38
understanding those culture, the nuances are very important as
20:42
well. Now when other things like in the in the language that you
20:45
know, in finance, or even the basic stuff, when lenders
20:49
actually trying to consider regardless of my lenders, or
20:52
banks or non bank, they're looking at like, you know,
20:55
they're trying to assess right there is five, I don't know
20:59
whether you heard about five C's in basically in, in the lending
21:03
in the bank. And so if the five C's are basically that the
21:06
capacity, the capital, or the collateral, or the conditions
21:11
and character, okay, so this is what else is the basic stuff
21:16
when any lender is trying to gauge of how they want to extend
21:20
credit to besides well, all other, of course, criteria that
21:23
have to be met. But let's take a look about these five, see, I
21:27
will take the last one, the characters, character is leaning
21:31
is very important. So I'll give you an example of my clients
21:35
that I've known them for very long time from my days at Wells
21:37
Fargo, JP Morgan, and then, you know, even when I'm
21:40
entrepreneurs right now, and then they came back to me, I
21:43
know, when they come back to me, I said, Okay, I got my work cut
21:46
out for this one. Because I know that very well. So they came
21:51
back and, you know, I understand what challenges that I'm going
21:55
to face because I know these these owners very well, right?
21:58
And so why and why? So why why they, you know, approached me
22:02
and asked for help. So in particularly in this in this
22:05
scenario is this, my clients are trying to refinance a commercial
22:08
real estate in San Francisco, what had happened is, is that we
22:11
talked about character. So unfortunately, that the the
22:15
things that happened a long time ago, so you know, in the in the
22:19
banking and finance world, when your client tell you something
22:21
that they did, we are obligated to actually to communicate that
22:26
to the management to so we have to do our legal due diligence to
22:31
make sure that these are still you know, whether or not that is
22:35
still rings true. And we have to find the facts finding and to
22:38
make sure that we need to get those right now, whether it
22:42
mitigates the risk, but in this case of character, big issue. So
22:46
my client, basically that, you know, they basically kicked out
22:50
from another bank, and then they were they have these bank,
22:54
existing bank doesn't want to refinance them, so I have to
22:56
help them to find a new one. So long story short, what I did is
23:00
actually I knew that a bank, that community bank in the Bay
23:04
Area that basically that when I approached them, this is what
23:08
the communications is all about. I understand the background and
23:12
what's the challenges is and how to mitigate, mitigate that risk
23:15
immediately when I approached these banks, I say that, look,
23:19
you're not gonna have any issue with a five see the early on
23:23
with the capital, the collateral, the capacities, the
23:26
condition, but you're going to have a problem with the
23:29
characters here. So if you're going to get comfortable and
23:32
then go to these, you know, the the Korea credit committee,
23:37
sometimes they do have that and in the bank credit committee,
23:40
and if they can be comfortable and behind these transactions
23:44
and the reasons why the reason behind it that this has
23:48
happened. And I say that then only if they can if they get
23:53
comfortable, then I would say this is a good deal, because the
23:56
rest the financial ratio, if you're talking about DTI, if
23:59
you're talking about a big deal, you're talking about free cash
24:01
flow, he's talking about net profit, that is non issue.
24:06
Character is the issue. You see. So yeah, so this is important,
24:11
right? I mean, like you don't have anything else but that one
24:14
thing is still a big thing. So long story short, what happened
24:19
is, is that they by communicating that and
24:23
understanding what the roots of the problems I have, how I
24:26
communicate that make sure that the lender themselves
24:29
understanding and they can get behind it be comfortable, then
24:32
they can help the client. And the client also have to be of
24:35
course, you have to be honest and transparent, based on
24:38
factual, right, factual data, that is like cut both ways. And
24:43
so we managed, like to get them a new home to a different bang,
24:47
and then the findings that they get, but it's a lot of work. Of
24:51
course, like anything else. Everything is a lot of work
24:53
behind it behind the scene, but just to get that in the
24:56
communicating and understand like every party We're under the
25:00
same voice and have to do their part to make sure that everybody
25:04
communicated. Right, and understanding the the root of
25:10
the causes of the problem and find the solution, the viable
25:14
solution that everybody can be comfortable, especially on the
25:17
lender.
25:17
Melinda Lee: I think that's so cool. I think that's so amazing
25:22
how how important and critical communication can be, especially
25:27
in these really difficult situations and financial complex
25:32
challenges, you really have to be really good communicator.
25:37
Murat Wahab: Absolutely, you know, another anecdote that I
25:39
can give you like, you know, I have a former colleagues at the
25:42
bank, so smart, you know, credit train commercially credited
25:46
smart guy, you know, so, the, what I realised is that he the
25:51
challenges that we face as being a banker, you know, banker also
25:55
like any business, you got to sell, right, you got to sell
25:57
like the product and services of your employer of the bank. So he
26:02
he was not able, actually to close deals. And when I say to
26:05
close deals, like when he talked to communicate with the
26:08
borrowers, or potential borrowers, I would say, it's,
26:11
it's always ended up like, why are these borrowers are not
26:16
agreeing or wanted to go with them? For example. There are no
26:22
doubt there are various reason personality, whatnot. But one
26:25
things that I do realise any applies to like everyone's in
26:29
sales. It's basically that when you go back to Melinda, when you
26:33
say that, you know, that the communication style, whether you
26:37
are a big picture persons, you are, you are very specific. So
26:43
what happened in this situation is, is that my former colleagues
26:46
is that he is more is a very detail oriented, it's not to say
26:51
that's not important, it is important, but it's seeing the
26:53
big picture here, because at the end the borrower who are not
26:58
savvy in terms of understanding how what the financial with the
27:03
process, what does that mean, with all these jargon that you
27:08
will have to meet this number, you have to differential ratio,
27:10
you have to be debt service coverage, you have to, you know,
27:13
oh my gosh, he is good with this business. At the end, you know,
27:18
those borrowers only one thing that he said that he wants the
27:22
deal or not. That's all came out of his mouth. Oh, my God, you
27:31
see what I mean? Yeah. So basically, my advice is that you
27:35
take that, because the response from the borrower, because you
27:39
cannot put like on your as a bank, even no matter how
27:43
knowledgeable Are you? And no, no much, no matter? How much are
27:46
you trying to help, but you gotta understand your audience
27:48
and this particular borrower. But financing is not for
27:53
everyone. Right? He got his running his business, that's why
27:56
he's successful. Right? So but it just doesn't mean that he
28:00
knows the banking and then all the things that you do day in
28:04
and day out as a banker? No, it's not either, and neither
28:07
does the client or whoever you're trying to close a deal
28:10
with need to know all those details. Yes. And you have too
28:14
overwhelming, it's overwhelming.When you start
28:19
breaking down into the nuances of what entails. Yeah, it's
28:24
doesn't have to be that way. And people yawn after that.
28:28
Melinda Lee: Yeah, I think there's a timing for it, there's
28:30
a time and place for it, right. And this message is really,
28:33
really important for all everyone, because of the
28:36
audience here. There's some corporate people, and they're
28:39
very technical, they're engineers, they might be, and so
28:43
that they it's really difficult sometimes, because you're so
28:46
smart, and you want to give so much information. And if you
28:49
feel like the more information you give, the more smart you
28:51
look, or the more you know, and the more you impress the person,
28:55
right. And then on the other side, meanwhile, the other
28:58
person on the other side is actually not You're not even
29:00
connecting, you're not clicking.
29:02
Murat Wahab: No, I completely agree with you. So So basically,
29:06
that, you know, don't try too hard. And just because like, for
29:10
example, and I came across this as well, when you mentioned
29:13
about ingenious, right, and they're precise. So that's why
29:16
they wanted to be very precise of answers that they weren't.
29:21
They didn't realise that they are not accounting person,
29:25
right? The finance in the banking, they sometimes what I
29:31
have seen it is that this can potentially kill the deal
29:37
themselves. Because what you say, and it's kind of like
29:42
changed the minds of the lenders. So when you have that
29:45
and so there's nothing wrong that you want to as much as
29:48
details that you want, but also that there is a place in time
29:52
for that. Right. I think the tip is like I would say to the
29:57
audience, like avoid trying to avoid using financial jargons
30:01
are very complex financial terms when speaking to a diverse
30:04
audience. Because you never know, because not everyone is
30:09
like, you know, they're, they're banking professionals and
30:11
finance, but it's a lot of the non finance professional people,
30:14
right? So just trying to avoid that and speak in the very
30:18
claimed English or plain language that everybody's can
30:21
understand. And even that remains just just to be aware,
30:25
don't assume that even the plain English sometimes that plain
30:29
English may not be what they you want them to think. Correct?
30:33
Absolutely. And ask questions. Can you can you paraphrase? Do
30:37
you understand and have the other person repeat it? Right.
30:41
And also, now, I've said that, if that's the power of
30:44
storytelling, the story is that so how know how many times that
30:49
I come across, because I advise many startup established
30:52
companies and even at the sea level, when you talk about sea
30:55
level CEOs, CFOs, you know, like, this is a very high level
30:58
on the leadership role that they have in their company. But that
31:01
doesn't mean they're actually experts, and banking and finance
31:04
career accepting their CPA or CFO, sometimes even the CFO,
31:08
different, depending on the level of experiences of the CFO
31:12
has, whether they are actually working on the small company,
31:15
big company, you know, that's a very difference, right. And so
31:19
that's why even in the bank, and you have small business, you
31:22
have, you have the commercial bank and below market, and then
31:25
you have a corporate finance everything. And then you have
31:28
the investment banking. So every, that's long line of
31:32
business, have a different approach, and has a different
31:37
like, understanding, so powers, how this the power of
31:42
storytelling, I cannot just, you know, say these enough, so
31:46
especially in entrepreneurs and startup out there, and the
31:49
founders, listen, you're gonna be, you know, as a founders,
31:53
you're going to have a founders dilemma, but do know, you don't
31:56
know everything like me, I don't know, a lot of things. You know
32:00
what, you know, I know what I know. Simple as that. However,
32:04
that doesn't stop us from learning from each other. So the
32:07
startups is basically that, you know, when I advise them as
32:11
typically when they tried to pitch to raise capital, right,
32:15
and a lot of times, and it really depends, sometimes the
32:18
CEO, I mean, not CEO, but in the startup like a founder. So they
32:22
always thinks that they have to know it all. And they know it
32:25
all everything, right. But they don't understand that you're not
32:30
in HR, because you never work in HR. You, you are not in a PR and
32:35
marketing. Because sometimes you are the worst, the worst person
32:38
to represent your company to to speak publicly about your
32:41
company. Right? Yeah. So for example, like giving you that,
32:45
you know, when I studied my MBA, and if the university, you know,
32:50
in my cohort, there is one person that actually I'm so
32:55
impressed every single time with her. And this is why she works
33:00
in the, in the healthcare industry, and she always
33:05
negotiate with the unions. And it's not easy to do negotiation
33:09
with the union. And what it does is basically is that sometimes
33:14
when I talk about certain things, she can come out, maybe
33:19
in a one line is a, that's what you say, exactly, she can
33:24
capture everything, the essence of what I wanted to convey, and
33:30
communicate that very clear. So these talents, right, and
33:34
telling the stories. Now, going back to the founders, when they
33:38
pitch, right, they need to actually find the people and the
33:42
companies that know how to pitch of course, the best founders to
33:46
represent the company, because they are the one founding the
33:48
company. But I've seen often founders, when you're not ready
33:51
to get nervous in front of the audience, like maybe they should
33:55
engage you Melinda to speak in flow. You know, learn how to,
34:00
you know how to speak, you know, publicly, and because it's not
34:04
everybody's cup of tea, when they get nervous, they lost a
34:10
train of thought. And basically, then the investors look like
34:14
you're not confidence, how can we, you know, trust you as a,
34:18
you know, with our money, you know, things like that. And so,
34:22
the power of storytelling is is that we make sure what you
34:24
present that on the pitch deck is basically that it create a
34:29
stories that resonate to the investors or to the lenders that
34:33
you're talking to, because it's provided the narrative that you
34:37
know, for that respective companies and that you're trying
34:40
to do right, but for example, you know, sometimes basic stuff
34:46
that I've seen recently, you know, a founder who present to
34:50
the investors, he doesn't even look when you speak, doesn't
34:54
have eye contact, and oh, he looked down all the time, look
34:57
on the floor. So I realised Is that that mean that that is a
35:01
basic stuff? You shouldn't do that because it knows itself,
35:06
how tired you are, I don't know how many meetings and pitches
35:09
that you've already done. But it's like you only got one shot
35:12
every single time. That's so
35:14
Melinda Lee: so I want to clarify, did you say that the as
35:17
a when you're pitching or when you're telling a story you want
35:20
to pick a story that resonates with the audience resonates with
35:24
the investor?
35:26
Murat Wahab: Yes. And remember those investors? When do you
35:30
want to invest? A lot of those investor have experienced in the
35:33
industry that they want to invest?
35:35
Melinda Lee: Right? So how do I know if I'm trying to pitch How
35:37
do I know that? What what do you just look online to say, hey,
35:41
this traditionally, this person has invested in your homework,
35:45
right?
35:45
Murat Wahab: So basically, for your pitch your invitation for
35:48
Who are these VCs? For example? Who are these guys at the angel
35:52
groups are intolerant? If you can find your point of contact
35:56
and do a little bit of research, who you are, it just like when
35:59
people go for job interviews, right, the brain builder who's
36:02
the interviewer, and then what it is do your homework a little
36:05
bit and then know that so when you're speaking, so you get
36:08
ready. And sometimes, you know, I would say a lot of the VCs,
36:10
the one that the time one, the kind of the kind of kindness,
36:14
they they actually provide like, insight, like, Okay, this is
36:18
what we're looking for. Yeah. But are you? Are you telling
36:22
them? Are you training them to do a story around their
36:25
background? And why they started the company? Or what kind of
36:28
stories are they storytelling, it's like, it's very powerful.
36:32
For example, founders, like why they're passionate about their
36:35
product, they're passionate about the product. Why is that?
36:37
How does it come about that they're trying to solve? The
36:39
problem is this problem is just like one problem just only
36:43
applied to them, or this is a problem globally, that they need
36:47
to tackle and then can help people around the world
36:49
globally. A lot of the investors that they looking at how big
36:54
like this company can go IPO, right? If the problems and the
36:58
solutions that the company is trying to provide is is that
37:01
solutions that are going to tackle the or disrupt the market
37:05
disruptive technologies globally, right, because then
37:09
that your products can go global. But if the products or
37:12
the services you that you actually trying to solve is only
37:15
one of the local problems may not be the investors that they
37:21
want to invest in your company, because they're looking for
37:24
different things that that more company can go global. Yeah,
37:28
yeah. So, so passionate is about what you're driven, why you're
37:31
driven, right? And then why is that your management team is the
37:35
right team for you to execute, and to execute your company and
37:39
then get this company off the ground and be successful.
37:43
Do stories important, and they don't. And like, for example,
37:47
recently, I asked like this founder. And he said, I asked
37:52
him to how do you know your co founder? Because you have three
37:54
founders, you have, you have all of them three. And then this co
37:58
founders, one of them is actually from the high school,
38:01
so they know each other. They're buddies, the article founder
38:05
that became unfortunately that co founder, it became a CEO. So
38:10
my question is that how do you get to know and pick this
38:13
person, as a CEO? When one person that you are in the bay
38:17
area here, and one person in the Philippines? How do you how do
38:19
you get to know each other? And how do you select this person as
38:23
a CEO and why?
38:25
Melinda Lee: Right?
38:26
Murat Wahab: So this is like, and because I saw when they
38:29
doing this pitching, right? The founders who do the pitching is
38:34
like, uncomfortable and the story, but there's not the same
38:38
of passions that you have on the local high school.
38:42
Melinda Lee: Oh, got it. Got it. Got it. That makes sense, right?
38:45
Murat Wahab: It doesn't trump doesn't see it,
38:48
Melinda Lee: you can see and totally see it. Yeah.
38:52
Murat Wahab: The comfortable, uncomfortable.
38:54
Melinda Lee: Yes, yes. Yeah, I agree. I can see that, because
38:57
I've worked with a lot of different presenters. And this
39:00
is really true, even though you're talking about someone
39:03
pitching to gain capital from investors, the same concepts
39:07
apply to whether you're pitching to stakeholder, if you're an
39:10
organisation, and your company leaders, sometimes you have to
39:14
pitch your your initiative, like this initiative is going to help
39:19
if you're thinking about how it can help globally, your earlier
39:22
like the investors want to hear how it's going to help globally.
39:25
So if you're pitching an initiative, think broader, how's
39:28
this going to help the company versus maybe your department, or
39:31
your story, a compelling story, if you're only thinking about
39:35
the department or the organ, like the one area just think
39:40
more broadly, and then that will be more compelling and tell
39:42
stories on that and that'll be more compelling for your
39:45
stakeholders
39:46
Murat Wahab: to even do and I can say as a principal, your
39:50
global funding partner when I look at the project finance
39:54
ticularly that I'm gonna get excited what for example, what
39:57
project okay, it's not just like Oh, I'm doing this XYZ project
40:02
cost 2 Billion US dollar sounds big, you know, all that. It
40:07
doesn't matter to me. And sometimes it's that the project
40:09
will be only 20 million or 50 million. But what matters to me
40:13
is looking at what project what impact they have in the
40:16
community, how many jobs are planning to create? And also
40:20
what kind of impact that they have to the world? And how are
40:24
these going to serve them to realise their project become
40:27
reality? Because I think it is very important not only like
40:30
trying to seek out money, right? And but the project, what is
40:35
have you done to the community that you live, or the global
40:39
community that do going to have these impacts? So it's got more
40:43
excited about that, rather than I have this cool technology that
40:47
I'm going to do like renewable energy, whatnot. But what does
40:51
that mean? Right?
40:52
Melinda Lee: Impact, right, yeah. And then and then when
40:55
you're speaking is speaking with passion, not just looking at the
40:58
ground and look at the ground the whole time? Yeah.
41:02
Murat Wahab: This is basic, but it's happened dated,
41:05
Melinda Lee: especially when you're nervous, especially
41:07
nervous, like,
41:08
Murat Wahab: I get nervous as well, no matter how
41:09
professionals I am. But you know, but sometimes the ideas I
41:12
lost my train of thought people would just come back backed up,
41:17
right? You know, how you go into, like, quickly, and just,
41:20
like, recover from that moment. And then sometimes we do like, I
41:23
call it like, I have a senior moment, but I'm not senior yet.
41:26
But if you know, you can make a joke about it.
41:31
Immediately, immediately, you backed up and then just learn
41:34
you can Okay, right? And so it happens to everyone it happened
41:37
to any entertainer no matter what and how professional they
41:40
are, like when they go on stage did suddenly they forget the
41:44
lyrics?
41:45
Melinda Lee: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I get it. Yeah. Oh, my goodness,
41:50
that was really amazing. I think they were very, that was a
41:53
fantastic piece of great tips, helping us to understand the
41:57
complexity of financial communication everywhere, from
42:01
jargon to e mail to even just regular plain English, how it
42:06
can be quite nuanced and complicated, but I think you've
42:10
provided some really good tips of how to, to navigate this, how
42:15
to master it. I like storytelling and being able to
42:18
tell compelling stories. And same with passion and go big,
42:23
like, say compelling, I think bigger, what is the impact that
42:27
you're trying to make and tell a story around it?
42:30
Murat Wahab: Absolutely. And I think it was just that for my
42:33
years is, you know, seeing and seeing being judging a lot of
42:38
these sometimes the competitions, right pitch, pitch
42:41
competitions, the demo day, that people that, you know, a lot of
42:44
these accelerators, whatever they do, and I've seen that
42:49
companies coming from South Africa, you know, like South
42:51
Korea, coming coming from Malaysia, Singapore is, you
42:55
know, all the other different parts of the world when they
42:57
pitch is very different. Because they are, you know, the cultural
43:01
differences and how they are Americans are their friends, you
43:04
know, Americans is always like, I would say, in general always
43:09
come out, but actually that very confidence, you know, sometimes
43:14
even like, then the American Way is is little bit different than
43:17
happy digging more like on the facts. So is that correct, you
43:20
know, like, but they show that they present themselves a very
43:24
difference. And then sometimes that I've seen another country
43:27
when they pitch like they are very shy, and because of
43:30
culturally, even though the company is really good at what
43:34
they're doing, but when they're building is fantastic. But it is
43:39
that the way that they don't, you know, like trying to
43:42
communicate that they don't know how, because they're afraid of
43:46
that being boastful. They're afraid that being egoistic,
43:49
right. See that way?
43:52
Melinda Lee: Right. Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting
43:55
and it's not sure.
43:56
Murat Wahab: Yeah, it just it is not so I think it like you know,
43:59
cultural differences. You know, I do have a colleagues that you
44:02
know, wrote a book about, you know, how to talk to Americans
44:05
basically, and she's the author and one of the co author of How
44:08
to talk to two Americans and doing business so her job is
44:12
basically like learning new people that you know, how to not
44:17
to piss off other people when you're doing this like you know,
44:20
like when you have to like elbow bombs and certain coaches, you
44:25
know,
44:27
Melinda Lee: oh my gosh, that was so fun. I was awesome. How
44:31
would EFA a company domestic international company need some
44:36
access to capital? How could they find you?
44:38
Murat Wahab: Absolutely. I welcome any opportunity to work
44:42
even a small medium enterprises, whether you are domestics,
44:46
companies or whether you are international companies. And
44:50
please you can reach out to go to my website, which is
44:54
https://www.hakimsaya.com/contact So it's
44:57
https://www.hakimsaya.com/contact start with that first fill up
45:01
those inquiry form. And in a send us an email at info at
45:05
hacking cya.com. And when you fill out those forms, and then
45:09
it gave you the, you know, options to whether that you do
45:13
international project financing or invoice financing, or for
45:17
domestics request as well reach out, and you know, call, it's
45:22
great, but you know, because I'm busy, so maybe the best way is
45:26
actually to get hold of me is through email. And then when I
45:30
get comfortable, I would definitely that reach out to
45:34
each individual. I have very swift response. And I am also
45:38
very quick and say yes or no, whether I can work with you or
45:43
not. Wonderful, thank you so much. And we're gonna put your
45:47
website also in the show notes. Oh, okay. Thank you so much, Melinda.
45:53
Yeah, I really hope that, you know, your audience and, you
45:57
know, will benefit at least one or two, what we discussed today
46:01
on your podcast. And, again, it's a it's a privilege, and
46:04
it's an honour to be part of your journey. I wish you the all
46:08
the best and so successful on your podcast. So and then you
46:12
can invite me to come back the next day.
46:14
Melinda Lee: And of course, there's a lot that we can learn
46:18
even more, I mean, this is so much to talk about. But thank
46:21
you so much for sharing, that what you gave today was valuable
46:24
and valuable. I trust you're gonna get some nuggets and and
46:27
learn on how to do this.
46:29
Murat Wahab: Yes. And last but not least, do know for your
46:32
audience, when I speak, it's come from the place of really
46:36
care. That's the place that I talk about. It's it's not merely
46:41
lip services, that is from the place that I know that I'm
46:44
deeply sincere. When I shared that four decades of experiences
46:50
and knowledge,
46:50
Melinda Lee: I know, and that's why we are that's why we're
46:54
buddies. I work colleagues and you know, our audience, my
46:57
audience, or a heart centred leaders on a mission on a
47:02
mission to make an impact, make a difference. And so thank you
47:05
Murad. Thank you, dear listeners for being here. And I'll see you
47:09
at the next episode. Take care.
47:12
Murat Wahab: Thank you guys. Thanks.