Latest / Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association / Episode 6: Prayer is a Non Negotiable With Dr. Se J. Won + You Ain't Got This Alone + Learning From Ministry Failure And The Mysterious Missing Bos Rooibos Tea Crime and Review

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Episode 6: Prayer is a Non Negotiable With Dr. Se J. Won + You Ain't Got This Alone + Learning From Ministry Failure And The Mysterious Missing Bos Rooibos Tea Crime and Review · Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association

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Chase: All about helping churches, leaders, and pastors find health,
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Chase: encouragement, practical advice, soul care, and resources that work together
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Chase: to build up your local fellowship and the broader kingdom of God.
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Chase: Join hosts Dr. Michael Stewart, Pastor Chris Cole, and Dr.
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Chase: Chase Thompson from California's SBC Great Commission Association as they explore
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Chase: the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal of making every church flourish.
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Chase: Welcome into another episode of Every Church flourishing. We have a great guest for us today. It is Dr.
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Chase: CJ Wan, who is the Major Domo, the Director of Mission Operations for the Great
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Chase: Commission Association.
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Chase: He's going to talk to us about prayer, abiding, things along those lines.
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Chase: It was a deep spiritual conversation.
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Chase: And before we get into talking about him, Chris, let's talk about some prayer resources.
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Chase: Dr. CJ talks about a couple in his interview. Let's you and I talk and preemptively
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Chase: bring up some of our own. What have you got for us?
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Chris: So I think my favorite book on prayer or resource on prayer
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Chris: Over the past few years is a book I was introduced to about six or seven years ago now.
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Chris: And it's a book called A Praying Life by Paul Miller.
1:32
Chris: A Praying Life by Paul Miller. The book's been out for a while.
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Chris: When I got it, you can see at the top, 350,000 copies had been sold.
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Chris: Now, if you go to Amazon, the new edition of this, there's over half a million
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Chris: copies of this book sold. So it's certainly been popular.
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Chris: But what I gained and gleaned from this book was not really so much the techniques of prayer,
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Chris: although there's some really good practical tips about building a prayer journal
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Chris: and how to structure an active prayer life, but really the posture and heart of prayer.
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Chris: Paul taught me, not only through this book, but through some conferences I got
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Chris: the privilege of attending with him, to talk to God as a child.
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Chris: And I realized that I had to get past some of my own childhood wounds and the
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Chris: way that I thought parents felt and approached people to understand that God's
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Chris: approaching as a loving father and delights to answer.
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Chris: Paul's got some great resources in the book talking about what keeps us from
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Chris: going to God, our cynicism.
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Chris: So he addresses a lot of the underlying unbeliefs that keep us from going to
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Chris: God in an active prayer life.
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Chris: And the idea that we should be experienced
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Chris: expecting God to answer our prayer. So he just blessed and encouraged me,
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Chris: not only with this book, but if you get a chance to attend one of his See Jesus events,
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Chris: Whether it's J Curve, which is another one of his resources,
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Chris: or A Praying Life, I think you'll be much encouraged and strengthened and equipped in prayer.
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Chris: Now, you, Pastor Chase, have a prayer resource that you'd like to share as well.
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Chase: Yeah, and if you were watching the video of our conversation,
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Chase: you would notice that for the first 90 seconds that Chris was talking, I was distracted.
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Chase: It's not because I was checking my fantasy football team score or anything like that.
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Chase: I actually was sold pretty early on in your conversation about the Paul Miller
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Chase: book, and I just bought it on Audible.
3:38
Chase: But a book I know that you and I have both read is by Pastor Jim Cimbala of
3:43
Chase: the Brooklyn Tabernacle Church.
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Chase: I hesitated to, I was aware of this book for years, but I hesitated to buy it
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Chase: because the only way I knew the Brooklyn Tabernacle Church early on is that
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Chase: they had some sort of famous choir that did a lot of singing.
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Chase: And I don't know. I didn't think that sounded very familiar.
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Chris: Super spiritual or whatever.
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Chase: So I didn't give Pastor Jim Cimbala much attention.
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Chase: But finally, somehow, someway, a few years ago, somebody convinced me to read that book.
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Chase: One of the best books I've ever read on prayer and the way he goes about talking about it.
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Chase: There's so many stories in there that I really like.
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Chase: Show me, you know, you want to get me to value something. show me how important it is.
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Chase: And Jim Cimbala does an exceptional job of showing us how important prayer is
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Chase: in the life of a congregation, how necessary it is.
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Chase: We keep talking about John 15, abiding in Christ and how that is the underlying
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Chase: key to every church flourishing.
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Chase: Cimbala's book just does a fantastic job with testimony after testimony,
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Chase: story after story to point God's people to be a people of prayer.
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Chase: I cannot recommend it highly enough.
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Chris: Absolutely. And I would amen everything you just said.
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Chris: And if you're a pastor or a leader in a church that is struggling,
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Chris: you're plateaued, you're declined,
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Chris: you're sort of just running out of hope, that book, Fresh Wind,
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Chris: Fresh Fire, is a great encouragement towards your situation.
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Chris: In fact, the testimony in the book is about how they went from a deeply broken,
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Chris: weak church to a church that is thriving and flourishing largely through the
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Chris: power of prayer and the faithfulness of the people of God to petition their heavenly father.
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Chris: That book, along with the book that CJ mentioned, in the interview,
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Chris: Daniel Henderson's book, Old Paths, New Power.
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Chris: Those will be in our show notes for this episode, and you'll be able to find
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Chris: all of the resources we recommend there.
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Chris: Now, we like to do, in every one of our episodes, a little segment where we're
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Chris: sharing in various soda flavors from around the world.
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Chris: We had planned for us to drink together a sparkling rooibos iced tea, strawberry flavor.
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Chris: And that was supposed to be on our schedule for this particular episode.
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Chris: But as it happens here at the GCA offices, apparently somebody else saw the
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Chris: tea in the fridge and decided it looked really good. It has disappeared.
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Chris: So Pastor Chase, I don't have one of these.
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Chris: So we're going to have to rely on your palate alone and exclusively to tell
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Chris: us how many Spurgeons is this tea and what are the nuances of the flavors.
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Chris: We're going to have to do all of that. So we're looking forward to hearing your
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Chris: take on the Boss Sparkling Rooibos Ice Tea.
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Chase: Yeah, and look, I'm happy to do that. But this whole incident with the tea going
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Chase: missing raises an even bigger question.
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Chase: Do you think the evangelical church can handle yet another scandal of there
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Chase: being a thief in the Great Commission Association offices who just willy-nilly steals?
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Chase: Sodas like that?
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Chris: Willy nilly steals. Yeah, we searched high and low and we even,
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Chris: in the break, we sent messengers out,
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Chris: electronic messengers out to find out where has the tea gone?
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Chris: We know it was here just a few days ago, but it has in fact disappeared.
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Chris: So there's a few possibilities here, but I'm going to be charitable,
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Chris: Pastor Chase, and believe this. that one of my coworkers came along and we didn't
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Chris: get it labeled properly for the podcast.
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Chris: And somebody else looked at that and they said, that looks delicious.
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Chris: And I need some of that sparkling rooibos tea.
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Chris: And I hope it was an encouragement to their day.
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Chris: They might have needed that pick-me-up, right? They might have needed that blessing.
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Chris: So I'm just going to assume that I didn't need the blessing today.
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Chris: They needed that particular blessing.
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Chris: And maybe in the future, I'll get to try this if it's good. Now, here's the thing.
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Chris: If it's bad, if it's bad and they took it.
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Chase: It's grace. It's grace. Yeah. Yeah. If somebody had taken the Lester's Fixin Ranch soda.
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Chris: That would have been so good.
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Se J.: That would have been grace.
8:37
Chris: If I had been watching you drink that alone,
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Chris: I would have been laughing hysterically because it would have been such a good
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Chris: moment to watch you have to down that as I was not having to down it.
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Chris: So if this is bad, the good news for me is I don't have to try it and I,
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Chris: I'm not responsible for that reality. Right. Yeah.
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Chase: Yes, that's right. That's right.
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Chris: All right. Well, let's, should you go for it?
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Chase: Let's go for it. Okay. Let's smell it. Oh, it's got a good, clean,
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Chase: fresh smell, strawberry flavor. It's kind of fruity.
9:15
Chase: It does a little bit. There's a picture if you're watching at home on video.
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Chase: The Boss Sparkling Rooibos Ice Tea.
9:24
Chase: Whoa, that's not exactly what I expected. Let's try another sip.
9:30
Chase: Okay, yeah. So I will tell you, Pastor Chris, at the Thompson household,
9:35
Chase: we keep rooibos tea on hand because I read years ago that rooibos tea,
9:43
Chase: for reasons I've long since forgot, is really good for asthma.
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Chase: And sometimes when the kids get sick, we will drink rooibos tea,
9:50
Chase: and it seems to help a little.
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Chase: Not sure if that's the placidabo effect or not, but I think it's a bronchodilator that really works.
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Chase: And so I'm familiar with the taste of rooibus. It's not real tea.
10:02
Chase: It doesn't come from the Camellia Sinensis tree bush. So it's a different kind of thing altogether.
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Chase: But the thing that threw me on my first sip, it's carbonated tea.
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Chase: Which is weird, I guess, but it's not bad. It's not bad.
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Chase: I don't know that grace has protected you from this.
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Chase: I think whoever drank this probably enjoyed it, but also might have thought
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Chase: it was weird. So what does it taste like?
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Chase: Well, you can kind of taste that rooibosian red tea, bush tea kind of taste there.
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Chase: That's pretty prominent. And you can definitely taste the carbonation.
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Chase: It's got a good, light mouth feel.
10:46
Chase: This would be a great can to drink if you're watching a baseball game or picnicking
10:51
Chase: or you're out in the sunlight somewhere and you're hot and kind of thirsty.
10:55
Chase: What I would really like more of, though, is I want some more of that that strawberry
11:01
Chase: flavor to punch a little bit harder.
11:05
Chase: It's fruity ish, fruity adjacent, but I really wouldn't mind it being a lot
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Chase: stronger in the strawberry department.
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Chris: OK, now that product, Roybus Ice Tea, this this particular one,
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Chris: it comes from South Africa.
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Chris: That's the boss brands. So that's a South African sparkling beverage right there.
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Chase: Yes. And you know what? I'm going to go ahead and give you one out of one on
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Chase: our trivia questions, because most teas come from somewhere in Asia, Japan, China or India.
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Chase: But rooibos comes from one specific mountain in Cedarburg.
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Chase: And the name sounds a little Dutch, but as you have already revealed,
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Chase: the country of origin for rooibos tea is South Africa. And let me hit you.
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Chase: I'm sorry you can't experience this. Let me give you the Spurgeons and then
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Chase: I'm going to hit you with a couple of more questions.
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Chase: I'm going to give this three and a half Spurgeons. Very drinkable.
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Chase: Not as delightful as our ginger beer. Maybe a slight bit under our Chupa Chups
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Chase: bubblegum flavor, but very drinkable and probably healthier than either one of those.
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Chris: It's 234 kilojoules.
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Chris: Okay. Now I had to look that up. Okay.
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Chase: I'm glad you did. Cause I don't know.
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Chris: I don't know what kilojoules are. I'm not that sophisticated.
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Chase: It's a thousand joules. How about that?
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Chris: Well, it is right. It's a thousand joules. Now I have a, uh,
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Chris: my oldest daughter is a, is in medical field and she works as a nurse and she's
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Chris: very, very good scientist. She has degrees in chemistry and other things like that.
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Chris: So she would know what this is. I had to look it So 234 kilojoules is apparently
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Chris: 55.9 or 56 calories, kilocalories.
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Chase: Yeah, okay. So better than a Coke, better than a Mountain Dew,
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Chase: better than a Chupa Chups, and it's tasty.
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Chase: So I'm going to say three and a half Spurgeons out of five.
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Chris: Three and a half Spurgeons on the rooibos tea.
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Chris: So somebody that needed the pick-me-up and disappeared, how about we use that?
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Chris: They disappeared the rooibos tea from the fridge here at the Great Commission Association offices.
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Chris: That person enjoyed it, is what you're telling you.
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Chase: I hope they did. It's a pleasant red beverage. It's got a good smell to it. It's fresh.
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Chase: I'm happy with it, and I'm happy to drink it for the rest of the show.
13:39
Chase: Let me ask you a couple of questions about rooibos tea.
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Chris: Absolutely. Let's go for it.
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Chase: The word itself is Afrikaans, so Dutch origin. And it can be strange to pronounce,
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Chase: but I think we're doing a pretty good job. It's rooibos, even though it's spelled R-O-O-I-B-O-S.
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Chase: But if you look at the tea itself, what it is is very literal.
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Chase: Based on the color of the drink I told you, what do you think rooibos translates to in English?
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Chris: Translate. Pink.
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Chase: Close.
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Chris: Red.
14:12
Chase: Red, red what?
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Chris: Red, red, red butter.
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Chase: Red bush.
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Chris: Bush.
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Chase: Because it comes from a red bush. So that's what rooibos means.
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Chase: And that gets us to our second question.
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Chase: As I said, it's not from the tea plant, Camellia sinensis.
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Chase: It's from a broom-like legume, kind of related to beans and things like that.
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Chase: Because of that, what jittery, anxiety-inducing substance is rooibos naturally completely free of?
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Chris: Caffeine.
14:49
Chase: You got it. Caffeine.
14:50
Chris: All right.
14:52
Chase: That gives you a two out of three batting average today. So you are very close
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Chase: to being an expert on rooibos.
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Chris: I'm so close to being an expert. That is really, really good.
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Chris: Well, I hope our brothers and sisters in the churches in South Africa enjoy
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Chris: their rooibos tea and enjoy that sparkling beverage there.
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Chris: So we're always glad that around the world there's brothers and sisters that
15:15
Chris: get to enjoy these beverages.
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Chris: Although I don't think anybody, wherever Lester Stixson's ranch dressing soda
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Chris: comes from, no one's enjoying that.
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Chris: That's not a thing. I think that's not a good experience. But maybe in Jamaica
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Chris: or in the UK, they're enjoying that old Jamaica ginger beer.
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Chris: And here we hope our brothers and sisters in Christ are enjoying that rooibos tea.
15:41
Chris: So we should probably segue from this into an interview that we think you'll
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Chris: enjoy as Pastor C.J., Pastor Dr. C.J.
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Chris: Talks to us about prayer, the importance of prayer, and how prayer is key to
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Chris: leading churches into a place of flourishing and communities into gospel transformations.
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Chase: And we have the privilege now of being joined by Dr.
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Chase: Pastor C.J. Wan, who is the Director of Mission Operations for the Great Commission
16:11
Chase: Association of Southern Baptist Churches here in Central California.
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Chase: Dr. C.J., thanks for being with us.
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Se J.: Good to be here.
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Chris: C.J., a lot of people don't know perhaps these things about you,
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Chris: but you are an expert on so many different kinds of ministry.
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Chris: You've done a wide variety of ministry. You minister around the world, literally.
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Chris: You lead a Bible study devotional for people in Beijing.
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Chase: I did not know this.
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Chris: Yeah, it showed up on my calendar system. That's how I found out about this.
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Chris: But CJ does this on a regular basis.
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Chris: He is a very talented musician. Once again, see, I told you I'm the only person
16:51
Chris: on GCA staff that's not a musician, apparently.
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Chase: I have no talent myself.
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Chris: Exactly. But CJ is a very good vocalist, guitarist, many different skills and
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Chris: ministry experiences, and you've done a lot of different roles with GCA over the years.
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Chris: But right now, you lead our mission operations team, helping support our schools,
17:14
Chris: our ministries, and then you also minister to a lot of our Asian American churches,
17:20
Chris: helping connect them into our ministry, and we appreciate all of that.
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Chris: But I think one thing that does stand out in your life is prayer.
17:29
Chris: People that are around you know that you value prayer. Prayer is one of your
17:33
Chris: life messages and one of your life priorities.
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Chris: So maybe the first question to ask you is, how did prayer become an important
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Chris: part of your life and ministry?
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Chris: And then maybe a second question that would be related to that is,
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Chris: if you're counseling or encouraging a pastor to prioritize prayer,
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Chris: what would you give them as an encouragement to do that?
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Se J.: God has given me different roles throughout, I guess, my ministry careers.
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Se J.: And even here at GCA, I've been given different roles, and God was to credit
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Se J.: everything that happened here, good and bad and the ugly.
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Se J.: And so I don't take any credit for any of those.
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Se J.: Nonetheless, I think the prayer is really something I can't say I'm good at
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Se J.: or I'm mastered at or anything like that.
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Se J.: It's just that I know for a fact that prayer is the fuel that moves anything
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Se J.: and everything that we do here. It cannot be without prayer.
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Se J.: We are pretty good at doing church. We're pretty good at doing ministry.
18:38
Se J.: We know how to do that. And there's books and books and podcasts and anything else about that.
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Se J.: But really, prayer for me was an area that perhaps I could credit to my grandmother
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Se J.: who prayed on a regular basis three, four times a day on the clock across different
18:57
Se J.: times and lifting up pastors, missionaries,
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Se J.: and everybody else in the family, obviously.
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Se J.: But it's really because I have come to realize my limitation on who I am and
19:09
Se J.: my reality of what I could do.
19:13
Se J.: And I think knowing how powerless and limited I am and the role that he's given
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Se J.: me has always been bigger than me.
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Se J.: I don't know if that's true with you guys, but anything he asked me to do, I'm going, what?
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Se J.: You want me to do this? And so it's always come to a wall where I was staring
19:33
Se J.: at and sometimes sitting in the parking lot going, Lord, I don't know what this looks like.
19:38
Se J.: I have no idea how to push this part forward or I don't even know what I don't even know.
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Se J.: And so I think it came down to me just saying, God, I need you to show me the next step.
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Se J.: I don't need to see the whole thing, but show me next step.
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Se J.: Help me to get to the next thing. And so that's sort of been my practice.
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Se J.: Now, there's tons of resources and other things out there that will help pastors
20:03
Se J.: and books and other things.
20:04
Se J.: I've mentioned in the other podcasts as well. But it's really a ministry that
20:09
Se J.: sometimes we don't highlight enough.
20:11
Se J.: We talk about it. We preach on it and teach on it, but we don't sometimes actually do it.
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Se J.: And so that's still my struggle for myself and my wife.
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Se J.: We put it on our calendar every January, February or so, 30 days,
20:26
Se J.: 60 days, 90 days. We tried all of it.
20:29
Se J.: Probably going to stick to 30 days this year of 30-day fast,
20:33
Se J.: dinner, just to skip and spend time just praying.
20:37
Se J.: Because you'd be surprised how many things come up in your life,
20:42
Se J.: in your ministry, your family that just needs prayer.
20:45
Se J.: But if you just set aside a time, I think that helps you to focus on the stuff
20:52
Se J.: that the Spirit would reveal once you give them space.
20:55
Se J.: But for us, I just have to create that space intentionally.
20:59
Se J.: And first thing I do when I get to the office is that 15 minutes,
21:02
Se J.: 20 minutes, just to sit there and say, God, I got stuff and,
21:07
Se J.: you know, I need your help here. And so that's really what's been happening.
21:11
Se J.: There's many teachings on how I believe God is wanting to bless us,
21:17
Se J.: wanting to release his power upon our ministry, our family.
21:21
Se J.: But I think he might be waiting for us.
21:25
Se J.: That's what my thought was. I think he's waiting for me to cry out to him for it.
21:31
Chris: Because James says, do not have because you do not ask.
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Se J.: Yeah, and it's not even in your radar. So God is saying, I'm just going to wait
21:38
Se J.: until you realize you need this, until you realize that you need my help.
21:43
Se J.: And so I think that's the major points that stuck to my mind about prayer.
21:50
Se J.: And the other flip side is, again, and as Chris mentioned, my teachings or devotionals
21:55
Se J.: I do with Beijing friends, and I've been doing that for 14 years,
21:59
Se J.: so it's kind of a long time.
22:01
Se J.: And as you do that, and one of the teaching was on prayer, and I told him this,
22:06
Se J.: if you are not praying, there's a significant issue, theological issue.
22:11
Se J.: And that is, you're actually telling God, I don't need you.
22:16
Chase: Yes.
22:16
Se J.: In this part, this life, this segment, this thing, whatever it is.
22:21
Se J.: And so I certainly don't want God to feel like I'm telling him,
22:25
Se J.: God, thank you, but step aside because I got this.
22:28
Se J.: And so I think those are main things that prayer and simplest that can be,
22:33
Se J.: I have to remind myself, I don't have it solved. I don't have a solve.
22:40
Se J.: And so I have to just ask.
22:43
Se J.: And giving him space, I think is, Chris, you mentioned, you know,
22:47
Se J.: how can we help our pastors? I think that's one thing.
22:49
Se J.: I think if pastors could just carve out a space in their time,
22:54
Se J.: day, week, month, or whatever. If they could carve out a specific time and space
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Se J.: just to be with God, you don't have to have all the prayer things.
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Se J.: I think that will be a big start that will help them shape their ministry
23:10
Se J.: Many things will happen. Supernatural things will happen when you give God space.
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Se J.: And the other books I mentioned before, that studying the topics of prayer in
23:20
Se J.: the Bible, studying the prayers of saints in the Bible, I think those are great.
23:26
Se J.: And then I mentioned Old Path, New Power by Daniel Henderson.
23:30
Se J.: I think that's also very significant.
23:32
Se J.: It just kind of drives and kind of unearths many things that we might have taken
23:38
Se J.: for granted, it, but he just kind of brings it forward. So that's helpful.
23:42
Se J.: So yeah, prayer is not because it's big on my life, but it's just that knowing
23:47
Se J.: at least the tidbits that I mentioned today,
23:50
Se J.: knowing that I feel like, oh, I don't want to be caught not praying,
23:55
Se J.: not caught, but I don't want to be a person not praying because there's so much
23:59
Se J.: repercussion of what I'm actually
24:01
Se J.: doing and saying spiritually and theologically if I'm not praying.
24:06
Chris: Yeah. You know, I think there's so much good in what you just shared.
24:10
Chris: I was thinking about John 14, 15, and 16, where in the middle of that,
24:16
Chris: John 15, Jesus says, you know, I'm the vine, you're a branch.
24:20
Chris: If you remain in me, and if I remain in you, then you will bear much fruit.
24:29
Chris: But apart from me, of course, you can do nothing. And then that passage is saturated, John 15, John 14,
24:35
Chris: with these crazy promises that if you ask, I will do these things over and over
24:43
Chris: again. Ask me anything, Jesus says.
24:45
Chris: Greater works, right? You know, one book that I found really encouraging on
24:49
Chris: prayer is A Praying Life by Paul Miller.
24:53
Chris: That's a fantastic book to challenge us in a sort of thinking through a personal
24:59
Chris: practice of prayer in a systematic way that genuinely is dependent on the way CJ's talking about it.
25:08
Chris: Pastor Chase, any works or recommendations or resources on prayer that have been beneficial to you?
25:13
Chase: Absolutely. I'll go old school and recommend a book called Reese Howells,
25:18
Chase: Intercessor, and the diaries of George Mueller.
25:22
Chase: George Mueller was a fascinating guy, Bristol.
25:26
Chase: He was German, but he lived in England, started orphanages, never asked for
25:31
Chase: an offering or anything like that. He just prayed.
25:34
Chase: And ultimately, he and his wife, in the orphanages he started,
25:37
Chase: took care of like 10,000, 12,000 kids.
25:40
Chase: His diary, his journal, journals all of his prayer requests.
25:46
Chase: And there's thousands in there. It's like four volumes.
25:49
Chase: And he prayed and kept careful track of God's answer.
25:55
Chase: And again and again and again, it's astonishing how much it is.
25:58
Se J.: I think we make the mistake of coming to God in the wrong approach.
26:03
Se J.: We come to him and ask for him to fix our problems once we messed it all up.
26:09
Se J.: Rather than saying, God, this is your problem. We need you to direct and resource this.
26:15
Se J.: And so we got it off. We got it in the wrong order. And so most of our prayers
26:20
Se J.: that I've done many, many years is, God, please help fix this.
26:23
Se J.: Get me through this problem that I made. I caused this trouble,
26:27
Se J.: but help me to overcome this issue.
26:30
Se J.: Well, as you mentioned, Chris, if we are remaining in Christ and He is in us,
26:36
Se J.: then none of those things really should be our focus of prayer.
26:40
Chase: Yes.
26:41
Se J.: He should already know that. He wants to provide all the nutrients and everything we need.
26:45
Se J.: Everything will be given to me. But I sort of take the other approach and say,
26:49
Se J.: God, I will do my thing. And if I get this wrong, if something goes south on me, please help.
26:57
Se J.: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, if we are to experience a,
27:03
Se J.: again, just my mind wonders, If our churches and pastors and others could get
27:10
Se J.: tapped into this power that is overflowing, and God wants to,
27:15
Se J.: and He has all the capacity to. It's not a strain.
27:18
Se J.: It's not a strain. He could do this on a wimp. He could just do it.
27:22
Se J.: He doesn't need any of our help to do it.
27:24
Chase: Yes.
27:25
Se J.: It's just that we seem to be the one getting in the way.
27:28
Se J.: I seem to be the one getting in the way of what God wants to do in me and through
27:33
Se J.: me and through our churches.
27:35
Se J.: And so if our churches and pastors starts calling out on him and tap into this
27:40
Se J.: source of power, all of us will get goosebumps of many, many answered prayers
27:46
Se J.: or even prayers that we didn't even ask. And God decided, hey.
27:50
Se J.: You are faithful with few. I'm going to bless you with more.
27:53
Chris: And as Paul says, more than we could ask or imagine.
27:56
Chase: I was raised by a father who's still alive and very self-sufficient,
28:01
Chase: very successful, a lawyer, very much pull yourself up by your bootstraps,
28:06
Chase: make it happen, that sort of thing.
28:08
Chase: And so that's very wired deep into me.
28:11
Chase: And early on in ministry, God sent me a partner named Sam, who his life message
28:16
Chase: is from John 15, abide. And apart from Jesus, you can do nothing.
28:21
Chase: And he's the one that introduced me to Reese Howells and maybe George Mueller as well.
28:26
Chase: And in my early days of ministry, I read a lot of Leonard Ravenhill and people
28:31
Chase: like that who were just really strong.
28:33
Chase: Prayer, prayer, prayer, revival, that sort of thing. So that's in my early ministry DNA.
28:40
Chase: But in my earliest DNA, it's this Protestant work ethic.
28:46
Chase: I got to make it happen. I got to work hard. So probably a lot of people are
28:50
Chase: listening to this right now, deacons, Sunday school leaders,
28:52
Chase: moms and dads, and pastors in particular, who are self-starters,
28:57
Chase: who are motivated people.
28:59
Chase: It's almost like they have the mentality, I'm not going to bother God with this,
29:03
Chase: I'm going to make it happen myself.
29:05
Chase: What kind of counsel, Pastor CJ, would you give to people like that who,
29:10
Chase: in their flesh, it's difficult for them to have that impulse of prayer?
29:16
Se J.: I think it's not so much that they don't want to see God or that they're anti-God
29:23
Se J.: in praying. I don't think it's any of those.
29:27
Se J.: If they are, they're in trouble already. They're in the wrong place.
29:31
Se J.: Yeah, that's a separate podcast.
29:33
Se J.: But if they are just coming to the realization that
29:38
Se J.: This is a spiritual thing that we do.
29:41
Se J.: It has powers beyond and implications beyond what any of us can do.
29:47
Se J.: We are his servants, his vessels.
29:50
Se J.: But at best, God could choose to use us or not use us. And he could still accomplish
29:55
Se J.: his will, with or without us.
29:57
Se J.: But if we lean into him and say, God, here I am.
30:02
Chase: Use me.
30:03
Se J.: I want to be used for your glory today.
30:06
Se J.: I think there is a simple as that, just laying it before God, your calendar.
30:13
Se J.: If people have a hard time figuring out how to do that, well,
30:17
Se J.: stare at your calendar one by one. Just say, God, be with me in this meeting.
30:20
Se J.: Be with me in that email. Be with me as I prepare.
30:24
Se J.: I mean, there's easy things that'll saturate, I think, your focus on God.
30:30
Se J.: And that's really what it means. If you're praying, you are wanting God to intervene
30:36
Se J.: and interject in any way he wants. But you got to give him that room.
30:40
Se J.: You got to acknowledge that, God, I got four meetings today.
30:42
Se J.: I need you to be in each of these meetings and have your way in each of these
30:46
Se J.: meetings. Well, that's a different setup.
30:48
Se J.: Rather than going into the meeting, blowing it all up and say,
30:51
Se J.: God, please help this elder.
30:53
Se J.: You messed it up. Yeah.
30:56
Se J.: So I think those are going to be some practical things. But I think prayer itself
31:01
Se J.: helps align us to God's will.
31:04
Se J.: When you're in prayer, you're able to align, not because of how wise you are,
31:09
Se J.: but by the work of the Spirit.
31:11
Se J.: Spirit intercedes on our behalf about things we don't even know and fathom.
31:15
Se J.: But you give them space and time, I think God will be able to direct your mind,
31:20
Se J.: your thoughts, order things, and align them.
31:23
Se J.: And I think this is a big thing. If pastors are
31:27
Se J.: not praying I would say They're not in the wrong direction But they just have
31:30
Se J.: a misalignment Totally And when you're in misalignment It'll wobble It'll go
31:34
Se J.: to the wrong direction Wrong path And other things will break But I think When
31:39
Se J.: you're praying I think it aligns you With the will of God And we are prone to wander,
31:45
Se J.: brothers And we want to do our will Not that we overtly say We want to create
31:51
Se J.: our kingdom But we certainly want to do our own things Peace.
31:55
Se J.: But I think when you give space and time for prayer, he interjects and he aligns us with his will.
32:03
Chase: Yeah. You said one thing early in your answer that I think is very profound
32:08
Chase: for pastors in particular, but every other church leader. Much of what we have to do is spiritual.
32:13
Chase: Much of what people complain to us about, the squeaky wheels essentially, is not spiritual.
32:19
Chase: And so a pastor might have a tendency to do those things so that everything's
32:25
Chase: running smoothly and they neglect, you know, it's the meme, the expression,
32:31
Chase: you had one job. We have one job.
32:33
Chase: It's a spiritual job. And apart from Jesus, that one job, we can get everything
32:38
Chase: else done. We can even grow a big church.
32:40
Chase: But apart from Jesus, that one job, that one focus, that one thing is not going to be done.
32:46
Chris: You know, I just thought of something when you said that, Pastor Jase.
32:49
Chris: I was thinking, I've been in ministry, this is my 34th year in ministry.
32:53
Chris: I've never had a church member come and complain to me and say,
32:57
Chris: you did not spend enough time in your private prayer closet, Pastor.
33:00
Chris: But I know that is a truth that has happened at various seasons in my ministry.
33:06
Chris: And yet I've never had a complaint about that. Not once. No one's ever said,
33:10
Chris: you're not praying enough.
33:11
Chris: And yet, I think that's a big miss, right? That we're not prioritizing that in that way.
33:19
Chase: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Same here, 30 plus years of experience
33:23
Chase: in ministry. I guess we're old.
33:25
Chris: Yes.
33:25
Chase: Nobody's ever said, hey, you're not praying enough. But I'm not,
33:28
Chase: and I'm not just being humble.
33:30
Chase: I mean, that is, you know, I have a tendency to not pray enough,
33:33
Chase: and that's one of the greatest dangers of ministry.
33:36
Se J.: I don't know if we could ever pray enough.
33:37
Chase: Sure, sure.
33:38
Se J.: But going back to your comment that when we deal with logistics and, you know,
33:44
Se J.: issues and broken pipes or, you know, whatever other things that tangible problems
33:48
Se J.: that come our way, none of those are, I would say, we could excuse all of that
33:53
Se J.: and say those are not spiritual.
33:55
Se J.: But if we're doing the ministry here on earth, everything we touch has a spiritual
33:59
Se J.: element to it. We have to make sure that the faucet is working.
34:03
Se J.: We have to do all the other work, but we need to bathe them in prayer.
34:07
Se J.: The whole operation has to be made in prayer.
34:10
Se J.: It's not, well, we got this, God, and you just blessed the Sunday worship at 9 to 10.
34:15
Se J.: That's not how it works. The whole mission, whole ministry, everything we do
34:19
Se J.: at GCA, everything is of Him and for Him.
34:22
Se J.: So we have to do everything with spiritual work.
34:25
Se J.: Tone to say, this is spiritual work that we're doing, although sometimes it feels like it's not.
34:31
Chris: And it's such a key element to see every church flourish.
34:35
Chris: We've been talking about leaders and pastors in particular and their personal
34:39
Chris: prayer lives, but we haven't even touched on this.
34:42
Chris: We probably won't in this podcast, but we need to probably do a whole future
34:46
Chris: episode or two or three talking about what does it mean when we invite the congregation
34:52
Chris: into an active kind of prayer life together and create those communities and
34:58
Chris: cultures of prayer to facilitate that reality, right?
35:03
Chase: Yeah, we're called to produce fruit that remains. And there will not be any
35:08
Chase: churches flourishing apart from abiding in Jesus and apart from prayer.
35:12
Chase: Well, Pastor CJ, our church loves you. You were the interim pastor there for
35:17
Chase: six months. That's been eight years ago.
35:19
Chase: They love you. You've had a lot of successes in ministry, but I think most of
35:23
Chase: us, many of us at least, we learn more from our failures and our horror stories
35:27
Chase: than we learn from our successes.
35:30
Chase: So can you share with us one significant failure or horror story you have in
35:34
Chase: ministry and what you learned from it?
35:36
Se J.: I had a hard time choosing because there's many.
35:39
Chase: I have a list as well.
35:41
Se J.: And some are right for this podcast, some are not. Okay. But I will...
35:47
Se J.: Talk about two things. One is a personal thing and the other is a professional
35:51
Se J.: thing. Personal thing is financial issues.
35:54
Se J.: And this is probably known to anyone or maybe not known to anyone.
35:58
Se J.: So here it is. Before I got to GCA, about 15 years ago, I was in a,
36:04
Se J.: I had to resort to a debt consolidation, debt settlement program.
36:08
Se J.: Had to get a credit lawyers and others to help me fix and get over this issue. I was young.
36:14
Se J.: I was not making enough, but cost, credit cards and other things started compounding.
36:20
Se J.: Couldn't pay everything on time. And I think this is not a one-off story, but I was there.
36:27
Se J.: And it was painful and it was regulated.
36:32
Se J.: It had to get done. And so
36:34
Se J.: That started probably prior to I got to GCA, but it served me and God by His grace.
36:43
Se J.: I got it all done, but by His grace, He taught me many things.
36:46
Se J.: The painful lesson about resource, and we cannot not do without resources here on earth.
36:54
Se J.: I've did some talks and other things about how we need more margin to do more mission.
36:59
Se J.: Well, that's true all across. If you're family, your personal credit line,
37:04
Se J.: or if you're in financial shamble, it's difficult for you to do great work.
37:10
Se J.: And I think what I learned is I got to, first of all, learn to be content with
37:14
Se J.: what God has given me and to know that I have limits.
37:18
Se J.: And, you know, being 30 some year old, whatever, it's hard for you to know what your limit is.
37:23
Se J.: You think your next job or next thing will solve this problem and you do what
37:27
Se J.: you can. But the painful reality of managing and learning to be good steward
37:32
Se J.: of what God gives you is a lesson I learned.
37:36
Se J.: Right now, it's kind of ironic that I'm in the role of operations helping with
37:41
Se J.: GCA over all this thing because I think that was a painful lesson God taught me.
37:45
Se J.: You cannot do life or ministry here on earth without resources.
37:50
Se J.: But you have to make sure you're a good steward of it. If you're not, you can't do more.
37:55
Se J.: And I think the scripture really teaches us that. If you're not faithful or
37:59
Se J.: good with few, he will not trust you with more.
38:02
Se J.: And I've taken that to heart that the lesson is, yeah, you know,
38:05
Se J.: as an individual, as a father, as a husband and pastors and leaders who's listening,
38:11
Se J.: if we don't have that area managed and stewarded,
38:15
Se J.: I think we are in for a painful learning lesson because that is a big part of
38:21
Se J.: mission that we need to do and must do.
38:24
Se J.: And I really believe if we are faithful with the few, God will entrust us with
38:30
Se J.: more. And that will be the proof.
38:32
Se J.: Is God trusting us with more or not? If he starts taking more stuff away from
38:36
Se J.: us, we know that we're on the wrong side of the equation.
38:39
Se J.: So that's one of more of a personal, you could edit and cut that out as much
38:45
Se J.: as you want. But on a professional level, I think the lesson I learned about is leadership issues.
38:53
Se J.: And it's really title and position. And I think I struggle with it even now.
38:58
Se J.: And many of us across, when you're in different churches and ministries,
39:03
Se J.: you're given a position and a title, and you somehow believe you are fit for it.
39:08
Se J.: But I've already told you, that's not how I felt.
39:11
Se J.: I feel like I've learned that's not who I am. But when you're given a title
39:15
Se J.: as a pastor or a church planter, you do what you can.
39:19
Se J.: But I think it's really a test from God to say, can you grow into that role or the title?
39:24
Se J.: The mistake I made is really swinging the title or position, thinking that I am.
39:30
Se J.: And I've learned early on from my English ministry position to church planning position,
39:39
Se J.: as well as a director for education foundation across different overseas mission
39:45
Se J.: work. What I've learned is...
39:48
Se J.: I need help. I don't have this.
39:53
Chase: You ain't got this.
39:54
Se J.: I don't have this. I need other people in my life who's going to speak into me.
40:00
Se J.: Otherwise, it'll be me trying to fit into a title or position that I have real
40:07
Se J.: little knowledge of how to make this work.
40:10
Se J.: And sometimes we try to get it done by just sheer effort. And this is when you
40:15
Se J.: start realizing that your body is not going to take it.
40:18
Se J.: You're going to be stressed and emotionally shot, and you're going to be snappy
40:22
Se J.: at everybody around you. Why?
40:23
Se J.: Because you're trying to fit a role or a title that, well, you have to grow
40:28
Se J.: into it. But growing into it requires, again, prayer.
40:32
Se J.: But the other part is you need people.
40:34
Se J.: God has placed wonderful people around all of us, but we have to be humble enough
40:40
Se J.: to ask. And so for me, before I started my church planning, I sort of realized
40:45
Se J.: I don't know what that looks like.
40:47
Se J.: So I've asked Pastor Kim, I'm just gonna remain in my Pastor Kim.
40:51
Se J.: There's probably 400 Pastor Kims that might be listening.
40:55
Se J.: But he's a dear mentor of mine. And I told him, I need two things from you.
40:59
Se J.: I need one is this has to be an autonomous church.
41:02
Se J.: And second, and I need you to be my mentor.
41:04
Se J.: I need you to give me free access to you whenever I have questions or concerns.
41:09
Se J.: Because I have many. And so he provided that for me. And so that was extremely helpful.
41:14
Se J.: Two other people, Dr. Stewart, as I was coming into GCA, I sort of saw that as him being my mentor.
41:21
Se J.: And he has for 14 years now, has taught me directly, indirectly,
41:26
Se J.: sometimes painfully, many things.
41:29
Se J.: I think a leader has to learn and to grow into the role that God assigns you.
41:35
Se J.: And so that was, he was a huge part in my life. And Dr.
41:39
Se J.: Jeff Orge, former president for Gateway, now the SPC president,
41:45
Se J.: but he's also been my mentor.
41:47
Se J.: He may know this, I may have said it to him, but how he thinks and how he leads
41:52
Se J.: in certain things, at least when I was doing the doctor program with him,
41:56
Se J.: he was instrumental in shaping and kind of putting guardrails and other things
42:01
Se J.: in front of me to say, hey, these are the things you got to play with.
42:05
Se J.: And this is how you got to see things.
42:07
Se J.: And so those people, those men have been
42:12
Se J.: champions. And there's many dead people that I read that help,
42:16
Se J.: but these are the ones I think that are still alive.
42:19
Chase: I think there's a lot of pastors out there just because of the nature of the position.
42:24
Chase: And obviously a lot of Christians and deacons and church leaders as well.
42:28
Chris: But a lot of pastors who
42:29
Chase: Are lone rangers. There's been this teaching in the body of Christ for quite
42:35
Chase: some time that pastors can't really be friends with people in their church,
42:39
Chase: which I find really ridiculous. Mystique of pastors, right? Yeah, yeah.
42:43
Chase: And so there's that. And then if you're in a place like California,
42:47
Chase: you might not have a lot of pastor friends that live in your neighborhood.
42:51
Chase: I just happen to move in right next door to a pastor, which has been fantastic
42:56
Chase: for my family and kids. And shout out to Jason. Love the guy.
43:00
Chase: But it's not like there's a ton of us around. And you're absolutely right that
43:04
Chase: this togetherness and unity and having other people in your life will keep us
43:10
Chase: from so many of these horror stories that you're talking about.
43:13
Se J.: I would encourage anybody listening to really seek help and find people that
43:18
Se J.: you could trust and learn from because others have done this role.
43:22
Se J.: Others have done this mission work before us.
43:25
Se J.: And they may be dead, so you could read some of them. But there may be people
43:28
Se J.: who are alive who would love to spend time with you if you're saying,
43:32
Se J.: hey, let me buy you coffee.
43:33
Se J.: And this is how most pastors, well-seasoned leaders are already shaped.
43:39
Se J.: And so I think we need to tap into that generation or that pool of people to speak into our lives.
43:48
Chase: It's okay, and it's sometimes necessary to try to find them.
43:51
Chase: Exactly like you said, an offer to buy them coffee.
43:54
Chase: Sometimes we wait. I prayed for years for a mentor, and finally,
43:58
Chase: me and a group of guys, we just went out and found some.
44:01
Chase: And basically, like, hey, you're going to mentor us. And they did, and they did a great job.
44:05
Chase: But sometimes you've got to take a few steps and strike out a couple of times.
44:09
Chase: Otherwise, you really will be a Lone Ranger, and that's just so dangerous in ministry.
44:13
Se J.: It is.
44:14
Chris: Well, this is a great conversation that we've been having, and we have got to
44:19
Chris: do this again, do this some more with CJ.
44:21
Chris: We will be definitely bringing you back to talk about prayer,
44:25
Chris: financial management within organizations.
44:27
Chris: We've got to do some episodes about that, because you are absolutely correct
44:32
Chris: that for churches to flourish, there has to be the management of the resources
44:36
Chris: and the margin that we need to have for mission.
44:39
Chris: We certainly know that within GCA, because we need partners to help us carry out our mission.
44:44
Chris: We are not able to do this on our own, and we have many wonderful partners,
44:50
Chris: churches across the United States that are helping us replant churches and plant
44:54
Chris: churches, and we are so grateful for them.
44:57
Chris: Well, Pastor CJ, we want to sort of wrap up this piece of our conversation by
45:01
Chris: doing something we haven't yet done on this podcast, and that is we're going
45:05
Chris: to give away a cruise. We're giving away cruise.
45:08
Se J.: Thank you.
45:08
Chase: A hypothetical cruise, right?
45:10
Chris: But we're giving it away.
45:11
Chase: It's free.
45:12
Chris: It's free. So no lack of margin or ministry resources were spared for this mythological
45:21
Chris: cruise that we're going to give you.
45:22
Chris: Okay, so we're giving you this mythological cruise, and you get to go on this
45:28
Chris: cruise. Now, the cruise line gives you a choice.
45:31
Chris: You can choose on this cruise to go with just prominent pastors,
45:37
Chris: famous pastors, which by the way, Pastor Chase, this would never be my choice
45:41
Chris: to go on a cruise with a group of prominent pastors.
45:43
Chase: Some of my best friends are pastors, but some of the most annoying people I
45:47
Chase: know are also pastors. I'm totally with you.
45:50
Chris: Or you can have prominent worship leaders, like the best of the best,
45:55
Chris: like they can all be there.
45:57
Chris: You've got Casting Crowns and Chris Tomlin and City of Light, and they're all on...
46:02
Chase: And your favorite, whoever your favorites are.
46:03
Chris: Yeah, and whoever your favorites are. The Gettys are there. Yeah,
46:06
Chris: everybody's there, right?
46:08
Chris: Or you can go on a cruise with just denominational leaders.
46:12
Chris: Actually, I was wrong. I think that one would rank lower than the pastor one for me, just for me.
46:18
Chris: Or prominent Christian authors or prominent Christian entertainers.
46:23
Chris: Okay, so you get to pick, but you have to pick a theme group to go on the cruise
46:30
Chris: with. You can be there for the whole cruise.
46:32
Chris: All the expenses are paid because we here at Every Church Flourishing have now
46:36
Chris: given you this cruise opportunity.
46:39
Chris: So, which cruise are you choosing, and what are some of the names that you would
46:44
Chris: like to be on that cruise?
46:46
Se J.: My choice would be with worship, worship leaders.
46:50
Chris: And why is that? Why would you choose the worship?
46:53
Se J.: Well, there's several, I think, reasons for me. One is worship,
46:57
Se J.: I think, is the missing element in many of our churches, and my life too.
47:02
Se J.: I have a hard time worshiping in spirit and in truth. and so if we don't
47:08
Se J.: And prioritize worship, which I believe is a precursor to prayer.
47:12
Se J.: If we don't do that part well, we're all dry.
47:16
Se J.: We're going to, you know, from shopping at Costco, we're entering into the presence
47:20
Se J.: of God. We're going, I still have a shopping list in my head.
47:23
Se J.: Something's off and you're not connecting at the right frequency.
47:27
Se J.: I think worship is that for me and singing and playing the guitar and worshiping.
47:32
Se J.: So I think worship is crucial for me because that's how I connect with God.
47:38
Se J.: It's a way for me to just, without hindrance, just with guitar or with voice,
47:44
Se J.: with band or whatever, we're able to just acknowledge God and focus on Him.
47:49
Se J.: And again, prayer often becomes my issues. But when we sing and worship like
47:55
Se J.: that, it becomes a center focus is Him.
47:58
Se J.: And I think He needs that, not need, wrong word. I think He deserves that more.
48:03
Se J.: Deserves, great word. Observes that center stage from all of us and me,
48:09
Se J.: our pastors, GCA, everyone, more than what it is now.
48:13
Se J.: And so if we could get the rock bands and people that love worship in the same
48:18
Se J.: room and spend hours and hours and hours and hours just worshiping,
48:22
Se J.: well, that alone, I think, will be a revival.
48:26
Se J.: That alone will set our, you know,
48:29
Se J.: aim right Because I think we will be entering into presence The throne room
48:34
Se J.: of God When we worship Him And, you know,
48:38
Se J.: Jesus taught us to pray that way Hallowed be your name was the first thing But
48:41
Se J.: we usually start with I need you God With other things And so I think worship
48:47
Se J.: is probably my pick And just to be there I'm not sure if I want to be in a
48:53
Se J.: In a cruise, locked up in a boat with pastors or denominational leaders or any.
48:59
Chase: I tend to agree with that. Yeah.
49:01
Se J.: I think, yeah, that would be me.
49:03
Chase: So you're driving home and you want to pop in some worship music or,
49:07
Chase: you know, you want to facilitate a small Greek Bible study with some worship
49:11
Chase: music. Who do you listen to?
49:12
Se J.: Currently, I'm listening to Charity. Charity Gale, I think.
49:16
Se J.: So she's the one that sang, Jesus, thank you for the blood.
49:21
Se J.: And I Speak Jesus is another song like that. That had come recently to my attention.
49:27
Se J.: I'm listening to that. Many classics too.
49:30
Se J.: Radman, Chris Tomlin and many others.
49:34
Se J.: City of Light, I think. They have done many that we sing here at the office.
49:40
Se J.: And so there's a good collection that I listen to.
49:43
Se J.: Same songs, but different date and different time with different issues.
49:47
Se J.: And so it delivers a different kind of depth in worship. When I sing it again
49:53
Se J.: tomorrow, it will be different because I'm different.
49:56
Se J.: It's a different day, different time, different problem. Worship, I think, is key.
50:00
Chase: Yeah. Amen. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. It only went 17 minutes
50:04
Chase: and 28 seconds longer than it was scheduled.
50:08
Chase: So thank you, Pastor CJ, for your time because we kept you here.
50:13
Chase: We kept peppering you with questions because, quite frankly, we liked your answers.
50:16
Chase: So this was good. But this was deep, and I hope everybody out there listening
50:20
Chase: has been edified by it. Chris, you got any parting shots?
50:23
Chris: No, I just love what CJ had to share. John Piper in Let the Nations Be Glad
50:28
Chris: famously opens with the idea that missions is temporal because someday the work
50:33
Chris: of missions, evangelism, as great as it is, will be done because...
50:38
Chris: Worship is the actual aim of missions. The grand picture at the end of Scripture
50:43
Chris: is Revelation 5-9, Revelation 7-9.
50:46
Chris: Every tribe, every tongue, every people gathered around the throne room of God.
50:50
Chris: And I think that fits together with our vision for every church flourishing,
50:55
Chris: every community transformed by the good news of Jesus Christ,
50:59
Chris: that we might see everybody joining in that great heavenly worship.
51:03
Chris: And so I just love that idea. I'm grateful for CJ being here.
51:06
Chris: By the way, for those of you that haven't had a chance to meet our amazing Director
51:10
Chris: of Mission Operations, I can just tell you he's a great friend and a wonderful man of God.
51:14
Chase: Amen to that. Yes. Thank you, Dr. CJ. Okay, that was a deep interview,
51:20
Chase: and it really challenged me.
51:22
Chase: In fact, I took some of what Dr. CJ said in that interview, which we did this past Monday,
51:30
Chase: and used it for our Wednesday night church prayer meeting, copying some of what
51:34
Chase: Pastor CJ said word for word. Of course, I gave him credit, but that was good.
51:38
Chase: That exhorted me to lead our church in a greater direction of abiding in prayer.
51:45
Chase: And I hope it did for you as well.
51:47
Chase: Check out our website, which is everychurchflourishing.com. And as always,
51:53
Chase: stay tuned for us next week when episode number seven drops,
51:57
Chase: which will feature an interview with Miss Lynette Lozano, the school superintendent
52:03
Chase: with the Great Commission Association.
52:05
Chase: And Pastor Christopher Cole himself. See you next time.