Latest / The R4R Podcast: Road to Zero / Murray Bruce & Lieutenant General Cheryl Pearce

Transcript

Murray Bruce & Lieutenant General Cheryl Pearce · The R4R Podcast: Road to Zero

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At Lonsdale St Studio, we believe in the power of
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storytelling to connect people and create change.
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That's why we're proud to be the production partner for this
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Running for Resilience podcast. Well, good morning and or good
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evening and welcome to the after our podcast.
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Great to have you here with running for resilience.
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And today we've got a very special podcast.
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Matt and Ben have let me loose in the studio again and me doing
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the intro and saying good morning and good evening.
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My guest is actually sitting in the UN headquarters in New York.
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Lieutenant General Cheryl Pearce, welcome to the After Art
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podcast. Hey, thanks, Marian.
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Yeah, good night from it's good evening here in New York.
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So good morning to you in Australia.
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And look, we were talking a few minutes ago, your link with with
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R for R, I've got to provide this linkage through is through
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your husband Paul, who who was very dedicated to R for R when
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you're when you post it in Canberra and you've done many
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postings in Canberra and and drag you along on occasions.
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But I it'd be remiss of me not to tilt the the R for R cap in
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Paul's direction. No, it's so true.
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He did. He started it and he was
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involved well before I was. We had moved back to Canberra
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from Cyprus and then actually moved from King, from Griffith
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down to Kingston. We bought down there and it was
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I transitioned out of Army across to Home Affairs at that
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time and I was finding my fate and and then transitioning back
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out of that again. So over that period of time, it
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was really, I got the chance to explore Kingston, be involved in
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the community there, but equally got to, you know, catch up with
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you again around the coffee shops.
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But Paul was certainly the instigator for me in coming
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along to group runs versus really dragging myself out by
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myself for the longer runs during the week and on the
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weekend. Yeah, fantastic.
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And look, the reason we've got you on the podcast and, and as
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I, I've said in prepping for this, you know, an incredible
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journey in, in, in your personal life and, and, and what you've
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achieved personally and, and, and a mother and, and grown up
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kids now where where you see it professionally and the work
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you've done. We'll touch on that, you know,
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early career in the Army and and obviously breaking new ground as
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a female in the army timing E Timor Afghanistan.
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You mentioned Cyprus now in the UN headquarters, some incredible
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experiences there. And as we think about
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resilience, I'm sure you come at this from many lenses, the
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resilience of those that you've met, the personal resilience
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you've needed as an individual, but also how you look at
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resilience as a leader and, and the, the vulnerability of those
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you're working with. And, and in those peacekeeping
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situations you're in. And, and now heading up the
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military operations side of peacekeeping globally, I
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understand around 50,000 peacekeepers deployed globally.
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That's obviously a a key thing in thinking about those
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vulnerabilities and the resilience of those that you're
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dealing with in in those situations of of duress.
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Yeah. And I look, thank you.
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And it has been a, you know, a really long journey since I
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joined as a young 18 year old in the 80s.
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And the journey from then in resilience individually,
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resilience collectively, both for myself and supporting others
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has really been a link all the way through.
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And I did at some point have, you know, Rick Burr when he was
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deputy chief of Army telling me, you know, something, you know,
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it was my strong resilience. And I sort of thought about
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that. But it doesn't come
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automatically. And what is it?
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How do you focus on it? And how do you ensure that you
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look after yourself and how do you as a leader look after
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others from that? And it sort of makes you think
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about about it and you know, from one person to another, are
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you the same level of resilience throughout or, you know, how do
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you go up and down? So it has been significant.
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But you know, really from enough my, my physical well being was a
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demand on me as a young 18 year old, you know, joining the army.
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And, you know, back then it was 5 kilometres we had to run.
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And I was in the first group of integrated training in 1985 and
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were issued stubbies and, and, and Dunlop volleys.
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And trying to run 5 KS with a, you know, a female physique in
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a, in a pair of bloke stubbies and, and Dunlop volleys was, was
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really difficult. And really I had a hate, hate
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relationship with that upfront. I was a team sport person and it
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was a necessary means to an ends to pass the test to, you know,
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to get through my, my opposite training.
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And then just over my career it has turned from needing it for
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physical, for having to pass through, to being really key
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through to my mental resilience and being part of my key, part
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of who I am and about how do I look after myself in mental and
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physical well being. And, and obviously in that
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journey, there's, there's vulnerabilities that you, you,
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you have personally that that sense of not, not always being
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welcomed at the table or, or in, in the environment you, you're
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in. Can you talk through that and
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the and, and the way that you've experienced that, but also the
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way that you've, you've had to display a dignity and A and A
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and a grace in, in, in, in progressing with that backdrop?
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Yeah, look, when you join and it's you're not in a sweet spot
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of, you know, many women and you are trying to fit in.
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You really can't find your authentic self right up front.
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You're trying to be part of a team.
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And in that part of a team is a vulnerability because you can't
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be who you who you are naturally.
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And so you're trying to fit in. And so you know that you think
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slightly different, you know that you have a learned response
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to to most because we were educated and trained in a, you
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know, in the military organisation.
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But we as a female, I think differently.
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And you know, what I bring in that value add is how do I have
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my voice? And it was really how do I be at
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the table and not question myself that the way I think is
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equally as good that I have something to offer?
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When you know, whether it be some of the bullying and the
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body shaming, the value, you know, the perception that you're
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not as good. How do you dig deep and be
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gracious as if you said it's finding a path that you can
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manoeuvre through, you can influence, you can shape and you
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can value add at every point. And it's not generally the way
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that most will think about it is how do you have the emotional
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intelligence skills to, you know, to influence and that
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vulnerability is there all the time.
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You don't have a lot of people who've got your back.
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It's a very competitive and judgmental environment.
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And so for me, it's, I was really just a couple of
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girlfriends, just a go to person, somebody who, you know,
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you could talk to us or call it with a shitty first draught.
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How do you how do you approach different situations?
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But that vulnerability is there all the time.
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It's about how you manage that vulnerability and owning it and
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actually just accepting it in the beginning.
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You're trying. I think for me, probably about
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the 1st 15 years I spent through more of a fear of failure was my
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determination and drive to succeed was off the back of a
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negative. But it took a a switch to really
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own the vulnerability. It's OK.
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It's OK if I don't, if I don't land it or if I stumble or if I
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haven't quite got it right and get away from that sense of
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perfectionism and just look at it as I am who I am and it but
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it doesn't happen. You know, when you're in your
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junior years, it's really hard to have that level of
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vulnerability exposed. And you, you build up your
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armour and you have your armour on front and so you can be
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gracious and then you take that back in.
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But how much can you absorb? And that's a big one for me.
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And the vulnerability is how much can you absorb before it
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really effects. And you need to, you need to
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look after yourself and it's, it's knowing, yet you're testing
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that vulnerability and, and really that health that's linked
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to that. There's a number of threads that
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sort of come through in in what you're indicating there in in
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January this year, we caught up and and went for a chilly run
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around Central Park and you were reflecting that even, you know,
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senior levels of your career, that vulnerability still exists.
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You're in a multinational construct.
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There's different cultural context being brought from
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others. You know, you'd hope the game of
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paper scissors rank, you'd, you'd get on top of things and
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and people recognise your experience.
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But that's not always the case. So some of that, you know, never
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goes away, even even at senior levels.
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No, true. It's it's when you go into a new
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environment and what I say is if I go in authentically, I
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recognise, you know, I'm a white Australian female.
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And in a lot of environments it's, it's, it's you stand out
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because you're different. But equally it's the same in
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Australia. If, if someone from other
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cultures, countries comes into Australia, do the stand out.
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So it is being humble and vulnerable to just step in and
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listen, but to really hold your position and engage in what
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you're there to do. But also recognising that from
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Afghanistan you know you won't always be considered equal, you
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won't always be heard. And it is to have been.
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Go back to have the dignity and the respect to treat everybody
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as you would want to be treated and acknowledge that their
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beliefs and their culture may challenge your own thinking, but
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it's actually a little bit more about still holding true to
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values. What the purpose of the why on
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there and what we're trying to achieve.
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And, and sometimes it is just the humility and learning and
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listening and really listening is often the case.
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But sometimes it's also holding your ground.
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And you know, you'll have those anxious the feeling and the
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moments, but you know, it's, I know.
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And it sounds, sounds odd sometimes, but the, the, the
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impartiality of the blue beret and the blue helmet is sometimes
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quite key in, in when my voice, I'm speaking my voice, I'm
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speaking for all and not purely as what you see on the outside
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when you look at me and. There's obviously a courage
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around that of, of, of, of, of taking that attitude.
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Yeah, look, it is. It's, it's a courage link to
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probably the, the vulnerability of the situations you go into,
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what you're doing, how you're communicating.
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And I probably found it more in, you know, I first came against
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it in Cyprus. When you're deploying within
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Australian forces, you have all the force protection, you have
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PPE, you have the training, you have everything there and
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everything in my education and training and prepare me as the
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commander of the Australian Task Force for Afghanistan.
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I felt comfortable in what we're doing.
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I knew it was mission focused and, and it, it wasn't too far
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out of my comfort zone. Force commander now here is
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you're leading a multinational force in Cyprus.
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I was working and engaging between two opposing forces, the
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the Turkish forces and the Cypriot National Guard.
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And they're both conscripts. And it was a buffer zone and
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you're working and you're unarmed and you've only got
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communication. And I'm working with 2-3
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different generals from opposing forces.
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And you know, the mandate was to stop a reoccurrence of fighting
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and you're trying to de escalate the situation.
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And you can only do that through communication.
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And you're in a situation where you can hear someone's, you're
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out in the buffer zone, someone's cocked a weapon,
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you're unarmed. And you're trying to just work
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through that and then continue the conversation, continue
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engaging. And your communication is is
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your power. And that engagement is your
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power. And in a multilingual sense, no
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doubt, so that there's nuances that get lost in translation
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there as well, I'm sure. Well, if you ever see photos of
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me having conversations, I don't know that I could talk without
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my hands, Murray. So it's sort of like it comes.
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There's no Italian in me, but it comes with with my
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communication. And I would say equally non
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verbal communications is equally as important because community,
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you know, language is always difficult, but it's also
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sometimes often an ice breaker. So when you're trying to
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communicate and you're trying to find commonality, it really is,
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it really is a, you're joining and like with our Turkish forces
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is a history in Gallipoli and our shared experiences there.
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And, you know, same with a history with the Cypriots.
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And we've got a huge diaspora both within Australia.
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So drawing on the connections that you have is really key when
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you're trying to reduce the tensions and, and, and stop some
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stop the fighting. So it's interesting on how you
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draw on history, shared experiences because you know,
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within the military in a in especially in a multinational
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environment, you know, different time time in history or
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different points. Now you may be on opposing
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sides, but in another time you'll be on the same side.
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So it's often that mutual respect that you have, which you
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hold dear to the profession of arms of who we are as military
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in, in communicating, engaging. And it's the same whether it be
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in the Democratic Republic of Congo, they're working with the
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fire, DC working with the forces there as in, you know, within,
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in, in Lebanon, with UNIFIL, the Lebanese Armed Forces.
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It's, it's that mutual respect, but it still has the
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vulnerability and sort of that courage to, to, to be there and
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to, to lean in. And I, and I think if you go to
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a, a sort of personal level, someone running around the lake
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looking for those points of commonality with that, that
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person they're running alongside, looking for those,
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those shared bonds that, that creates that empathy and those,
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those points of connection there.
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So it's, it's interesting. We've touched on sort of the
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personal side, resilience, vulnerability, courage, those,
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those shared bonds that, that join us all in the context of a
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very diverse people. And and you know, you were
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talking about the Army and that sort of assimilation approach of
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the army to putting everyone in stubbies and volleys and, and
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trying to make everyone the same.
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We might touch a bit more on where the Army's evolved since
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there's also in resilience. You, you spoke about your, your
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girlfriends and the shitty first draught and going to those
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people who are your, your brains trust, your, your support
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network. But sometimes we get support
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from unlikely quarters. I picked up a thread, a
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regimental Sergeant major or an officer Lofty went, yeah.
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Can you tell us the story of of Lofty and that unlikely quarter
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for you and and that the influence that had on you?
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It's yeah, look, thanks, Mary. And I can feel, I can feel it
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now when I was young cadet and nobody, the staff, you know, was
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that first integrated training. I don't think that there was
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anybody outside the RSM and the commandant who wanted us to
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succeed. And it was a really difficult
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period. And it was.
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And I don't think we're any different to any, you know, it
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is a is for me. It's it's a difficult period for
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most of us as as young, young adults taking on joining a, you
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know, the services doesn't matter which one.
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But in this training, it was everything was has to be the
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same. It was really trying to get us
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to be the same as the men. We were different, trying to
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accept that we're different. And it was really trying to
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assimilate how we could, how we could fit in and and it was
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really hard to believe in yourself at that time and really
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is just a huge vulnerability and just going day by day.
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And I didn't think that, you know, never felt like I was good
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enough or that I was going to make it.
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And between the from the parade ground at Port Sea and there's
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not many around that have sort of the ports.
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He tracked back up to the accommodation and was the RSMS
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Hut. You know, it was all the rules
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about what you had to do as you're passing the RSMS Hut.
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But he stopped me and he goes, you know, Miss McDonald, come
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here. And I, I went over and he, you
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know, we had the peak caps back then.
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He lifted my hat and he, he was like 6 foot 6 and he just was
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Miss McDonald, I believe in you. And nothing more needed to be
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said. That was all that I needed to
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get me through the whole year. It was like just that one person
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who believed in me was sufficient.
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And because I was really struggling to, you know, believe
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in myself at that time because all you get is the negative.
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There was never any positive praise or feedback.
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And, you know, everything from, you know, peers to the staff to
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everybody. And so, yeah, it was that moment
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in time and you know. It was he was pivotal throughout
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and I always knew he was there. And now up in heaven he looks
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down because his daughter and she would be, I think she's just
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joined Kapuka and she would would have to be close to just
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below my age. And we reached out one when
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Lofty passed, we connected in I was in Cyprus and connected in
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and we've been in connection since.
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And so she's following in a father's footsteps, you know,
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with children and and starting through Kapuka.
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So but it is those points in time.
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It's just the humans that you come across and it's, they
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really are, you know, what makes your journey.
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And I'll just say 1A, dear friend of mine, when I
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transitioned out of the army and guess I've transitioned back in,
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but when I transitioned out, I was in the middle of COVID.
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I was locked down my last day, Canberra went into lockdown.
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So I was at home. So, you know, my family was all
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going to come and they couldn't. And so I was in my apartment and
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a dear friend of mine, Allison had said to me, she said, write
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down just a sentence or a paragraph about each of your
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postings over your career. And you know, so that was a lot.
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But I did spend the day writing. But it wasn't my memories
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weren't about what I did or what are I achieved or where we went.
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It was about the humans, the people at each point in my
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career who touched me in different ways.
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And it's, and I really had a really reflective and a
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wonderful day, a really personal day, just taking me back through
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my career to all the people that impacted on me in different ways
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that and what I took from that. And that's been really key now
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for me in how I think about things and what's important.
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And it's an interesting thing if you went to each of those
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individuals that you're reflected on there and you ask
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them what influence do that you, you know, on the day when you
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retire from the Army, would you be writing their name down?
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And a number of them would probably repeat, oh, no, no, no.
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You know, I was just in the noise.
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You know, we were there. Yes.
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You know, we were acquainted and that sort of thing on a story
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going back a few years. And this is a bit of a pivot.
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One of Paul's best mates, who was a work colleague of mine at
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IBM, sadly took his own life. And, and at the funeral, you
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just sense all of this love for Kichi and, and from so many
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different quarters, from his footy, from his professional
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existence. But he didn't.
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You sense he didn't get that that feeling of all of that love
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for him that would be greater than than what he felt to took
23:32
his take his own life. But one of the things changed to
23:36
Paul afterwards was how we didn't, he didn't as a very
23:41
close mate, see those signs and, and, and we think the influence
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of those people had throughout your career and Lofty and others
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leaning in and just providing those little points of
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encouragement. We can't wait for the warning
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signs with mental health. And, and as we head out with
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someone for a run around the lake or, you know, a lap around
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Central Park in New York or, or whatever, we don't know the
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noise that's, that's in their life and, and, and, and that
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sort of space. Where's where's your your take
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in in terms of mental health and how that need to reach out
24:26
rather than waiting for the warning?
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Yeah, look, thanks Mary. It was really a a moment.
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And watching Paul and his mates Sharpie was another who they
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were all there for each other and they all talked, but they
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didn't talk. You know, it was, it was a, it
24:47
was what was not said. And they have sworn to really
24:53
now check in with each other and it, it's one that is a loss
24:59
that's felt deeply by all of them.
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And it's, it's how to have the humour and how to also have the
25:07
sadness and the grief as well in it.
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But it goes back for me is, you know, right back from lofty went
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to me. It only takes a touch point.
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And I learned that a lot. And I, I must admit I do it a
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lot. It's just to stop.
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And how are you? And it can be little and I'm
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always just interested. And I, I, I try to listen
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because it is sometimes people put facades up and, and it's
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actually just reaching in and, and running is a great way
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because in some ways it's like with children and I don't, it's
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not a parallel in that way. But you can reach people when
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it's not eye to eye. You can run or in a car, you can
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be next to somebody and nothing has to be said.
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But then something can pop up or something can a conversation can
25:58
start. And I find when you're running
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and you're just chatting, you don't have to say something.
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Or you could say something and it just triggers or you say
26:08
something, then I say it back, but further down the path
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they'll say something. So it's actually not any
26:15
deliberate. It's just a really natural like
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you do is just communicate and have a conversation.
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And but when you got your senses on and you know what you're
26:25
looking for, sometimes I find that you can hear what's not
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said and you're more, you know, you're more attuned to it
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because everybody's got vulnerabilities.
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Everybody's got, you know, some form of anxiousness of, you
26:43
know, issues that are happening with them now or in the past.
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And it is just about connecting on many different levels.
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And even if not that first time you've gone for a round, but you
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know, as you catch up with them a second, third, fourth times,
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you know, sometimes they'll be opening up.
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And it's actually just creating that pathway to, to open that
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conversation. But it's actually, you got to be
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really genuine is my take on that one.
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More people will say, how are you?
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But they're not really interested.
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And you can pick that up and you just, you know, you just shut
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down and you don't really engage.
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It's actually the genuineness. And I find in the, you know,
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from a running community and especially in the Alpha R is
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it's everyone's quite attuned to it.
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So it really is just a shared community of, you know, joy,
27:32
happiness, but also recognising that it's really tough for some
27:36
at some points in time and acknowledging that it's it's not
27:41
any less, it just is. And how do you be there in their
27:44
space at that point in time? And I think there's an ongoing
27:48
thing for our, for our, and, and you know, as an organisation
27:52
initially focused on being better, not bigger, but they
27:55
threw that out the window because as they became better,
27:57
they became bigger. And there's that expansion.
28:00
But you, you mentioned being genuine and, you know, you can
28:05
sit there and introducing around and say, hey, check in on those
28:08
around you or, you know, we're here to support mental health,
28:11
but you can, you can largely do that lip service if you're not
28:14
careful. And so, you know, genuinely
28:18
checking in with someone. And as you say, it may not be on
28:21
one run, it may be over a number of, you know, touch points.
28:25
It may be a run one week, it may be having coffee the next or a,
28:29
a beer after Wednesday night run the next.
28:32
That genuine connection is, is, is very important.
28:37
Can I pivot into a different role?
28:40
You played you, you talked about the stubbies and, and Dunlops
28:43
at, at Portsea back in the day just a few years ago.
28:47
You, you, you then ended up back in Canberra with the Defence
28:52
Academy. What was your your role at the
28:54
Defence Academy? Yeah, look, it was this
28:58
commandant, and it's probably 20.
29:02
What was it, 20/16/2017? No, 20/17/2018 Yeah, Look, it
29:10
was probably for me Murray, one of the most, it was probably
29:15
nearly one of the best jobs, our best opportunities that I
29:19
wouldn't call it a job. Best experiences and and a real
29:22
privilege to have and really to, you know, to have 15118 to 22
29:30
year olds and to really they develop their character, you
29:36
know, the military, you know, you delivering their military
29:42
and training as well as the intellectual curiosity in
29:46
developing that as they do their academic.
29:48
But it's providing an environment where they're safe.
29:52
They can fail safely, but they also can learn, thrive and
29:57
develop themselves as individuals.
30:00
But also the character that they'll need to be a senior
30:04
leader, not just in defence, but many of ours, you know, step out
30:08
at different points along the way and be great leaders in the
30:12
community. And a young Tiff I did say was a
30:17
student of mine and, you know, just can be so proud of what
30:23
she's doing now. And I really do feel like it's
30:26
the handing of the baton from one generation to another as I
30:30
watch our young officers now thrive in in the community,
30:34
whether it be defence or broader and in, you know, fulfilling
30:39
their dreams and goals and what they want to do.
30:41
So. But yeah, it was a real
30:42
privilege to have the opportunity to be commandant
30:45
during that period. And.
30:46
Yeah, I had had the privilege of of sitting in this room
30:49
interviewing Tiff on an earlier for our podcast recommend you,
30:54
you yeah, have have a look at that quite an amazing woman and
30:58
incredible thing she's doing you.
31:02
If we think of there's an evolution in thinking, I'm sure
31:08
from Portsy to ADFA in, in that in that intervening period, you
31:13
know, I personally joined ADFA a year after you joined Portsy.
31:18
There was a, you know, it's almost criminal the the
31:22
treatment of of of women in my year, the year, the year behind
31:26
me. They had a view of of getting
31:27
all the room, all the women in their class by the time they
31:30
graduated. That was a a stated sort of
31:34
tagline at the time, which is just horrific.
31:39
There is this evolution. What do you think from a values
31:46
perspective or, or philosophy about the way, if it's not
31:54
assimilation anymore, what's the, what's the philosophy
31:57
you're taking in taking those young lives that that energy and
32:03
enthusiasm and that sort of thing and adding value to doing
32:07
no harm and adding value to it in an, in an environment like
32:11
that. Yeah, look, it's it's it's
32:17
allowing. If I think about and you know,
32:19
you're right, I don't ever want to think that our next
32:23
generation had the experiences that we had.
32:27
So you try and create the environment that is safe and
32:32
that they are not exposed. Now, I'd be naive to say that if
32:36
I take, you know, worked with Kate Jenkins when she did the
32:40
census on all universities in the, you know, the colleges
32:45
within your universities and that age bracket is is very 1 is
32:50
about how do you develop their values and their character, You
32:55
know, respect for others, bystander rules.
32:58
How do you develop and make them accountable and responsible for
33:02
that? But knowing you know, especially
33:05
in young males, that peer acceptance and overrides their
33:10
own judgement and and decision making at times and and how do
33:15
you hold what is for there is the right to do so?
33:20
How do you set the boundaries? How do you hold them accountable
33:24
and how do you develop them to be the best version of
33:28
themselves they can be in an environment that's safe?
33:31
How do you build, you know, still the body system?
33:35
How do you look after each other?
33:37
How do you how do you develop that sense of doing the right
33:43
thing, all the skills and you know, the diversity of
33:45
backgrounds that come and you think about if you go back to
33:49
yourself, Murray and you know you, you and I say about even my
33:54
early years, you try and fit in. And so you check yourself now
33:59
and go now I'm holding true to who I am and what I believe in.
34:03
But I know when you're a lot younger, that peer acceptance
34:07
and how do you that noise of trying to be who you are and
34:12
what you know you need to be. But I want to be one of the
34:15
group. I don't want to be ostracised
34:16
out as a, you know, as a young adult in that scene.
34:20
So it's it's a really it's a hard journey for them.
34:27
It's a really and you know you're in a fishbowl of that fur
34:31
in regards to nothing you. There is no private world.
34:34
Nothing you do is is is not known by by a group.
34:38
You're assessed for most things you do do and it is really
34:42
difficult. So it's actually being being
34:47
everything for them, being a listening ear, being a mentor,
34:50
being a leader, being the accountable on, you know,
34:54
holding them accountable, but actually help them develop and
34:58
giving them the confidence to be that best version of themselves
35:02
they can be and to grow into being great young adults.
35:06
And so for me, that responsibility is key and but
35:11
for me is what's not acceptable. And you know, look, I was, I was
35:16
quite hard on that, maybe based on my own experiences.
35:19
And what I saw is, you know, behaviours for me that didn't
35:28
align and it wasn't actually a single incident, but a pattern
35:33
of behaviour over time that didn't improve.
35:36
And a really a, a belief of there wasn't equality, a belief
35:45
that they were better than. And anything that has a power
35:49
over or better than I've got no time for.
35:53
And so really listening and watching group dynamics, but
35:56
individuals who didn't matter how much that they towed the
36:01
line and and each incident wasn't sufficient.
36:04
Just watching patterns of behaviour overtime, because if
36:06
they can't do that with their peers, how are they going to do
36:09
that as a leader and, and lead, lead teams?
36:13
And so it was actually really for me, it was important about
36:15
the character character of an individual and letting them
36:19
develop that character and knowing that they're not going
36:21
to get it right all the time. I didn't, I can imagine you
36:24
didn't. And they just don't get to live
36:27
with any privacy. You know, their, their world is,
36:30
is captured on social media. So it's how do you give them the
36:33
skills as well to navigate that space?
36:36
Yeah, yeah. And so many challenges even, you
36:39
know, just moving away from home and, and, and you your social
36:43
network and the support of of of those friends close to you.
36:48
You know, we've got a great run out at UCA, couple of runs a
36:51
week out at UC now and providing that support with, with running
36:54
for resilience. That's a great thing into that
36:57
community. There's challenges there.
37:00
And as you said, Kate Jenkins work across the universities
37:03
adfers. Another is completely different
37:05
fishbowl, which has those challenges and some that that
37:09
lack of being able to hide, you know, yeah, cuts in, but it's
37:17
it's an interesting thing. There's the, the negative side
37:19
of that pattern of behaviour that you you speak to, but
37:23
there's also that learning the, the right behaviours and the way
37:28
that you can your own personal approaches that are going to
37:33
work and and that are going to seek comfortable with you.
37:36
As you said early on in the call, you know, it's hard to be
37:39
true to yourself when you're trying to be part of the crowd,
37:43
But but there is a true north in that that's important to to
37:47
maintain and not, not lose that, that alignment of your values.
37:54
Yeah. Yeah, no, it, it is really true.
37:58
And it's about developing, you know, each individual to be
38:04
authentic to who they are. And and that is again, hard when
38:08
you're adding to, you know, that age group, that age bracket is
38:11
really hard. And so how do you give them the
38:13
skills and the toolkit? And a lot of the time it's just
38:16
giving them the toolkit and if they got the right character,
38:19
though, Marie for me, if if they got the potential and I'll call
38:24
it and a good humans, they will get there.
38:27
I have a real belief. And some do it later than
38:29
others. You know, we talked about when
38:32
we were younger, you, you're either a golden child or you
38:34
weren't and the doors were opened or they weren't.
38:37
And but now it's not about that. You see some really great
38:40
individuals who really thrive at different points in in in life
38:46
and career and but equally others will stumble.
38:49
But it's not about and we are big and I find a lot in the
38:55
military. We're we're very judgmental.
38:58
It's competitive in the judgmental world.
39:01
And it's, it's a tough gig. And it's that resilience is, is
39:08
hard to, you know, sometimes it's, it's a double edged sword.
39:12
Sometimes it's, it's a great community, but in other times
39:15
it's also it can be really difficult because you know that
39:21
there's not that anonymity in a way that you're always on,
39:24
you're always judged. It's quite a competitive
39:27
environment. And so it's hard to find your
39:30
way in, in, in, in, in the journey sometimes.
39:34
And it's how do you have a, you know, the go to person or
39:37
somebody that's just an ear and it's a random ear, like you say
39:41
in Alpha R that is just sometimes at a point in time and
39:46
and that just listens and cares. And when you're doing it tough,
39:51
it'd be surprised that, you know, for myself is I burst into
39:55
tears to random people who just do the are you OK or and you go,
40:02
no, I'm not. But you know, like you don't
40:04
expect that to come out. You think you've got it all
40:06
together and someone just gives you those couple of nice words
40:10
and you actually go. You don't realise you built up
40:13
such a. Are holding on to so much and
40:17
then all of a sudden someone does that.
40:19
So whether it's actually in your initial training or anywhere
40:22
through, you know, through your journey, it's it's to do that
40:25
and and the ability and I think running is a great space for
40:29
that because it's not it's not competitive.
40:34
You know, that's the thing. It's you're not there's no win
40:37
lose. And so you take off.
40:40
You can play the team sports and it is you're in the moment,
40:45
you're on target all the time. Running is different.
40:48
Yeah, I can say if you're doing 100 metre Sprint, but that's
40:52
that's not my Forte, Mari. I am the back of the pack and I
40:57
might always be quite competitive, but I don't have
41:00
the skills to go with it with competitiveness.
41:02
But but for me, running is a non competitive environment, which
41:07
is just a safe environment and you can walk, you can run, you
41:11
can walk around. Everyone has injuries at
41:13
different points in time and nobody's judging, nobody cares.
41:18
It's actually we're just getting out and enjoying it.
41:21
Yeah, and you were talking next month you're doing Chicago the.
41:26
5th. Of your abbot's runs, yes. 5th
41:30
of the 6th and. 5th of the seven, I, we were having a
41:36
discussion before the call and I'm, I'm starting an advocacy
41:39
campaign to get Cheryl to do Sydney with me some time down
41:44
track. But so Chicago next month.
41:50
You've been travelling a lot, probably more travel between
41:52
here and then a training regime that that is highly compromised,
42:01
a work regime which which has you, you know, you know, non
42:06
stop. So how do you approach Chicago
42:10
with that in mind? Look, I find running is my
42:15
mental health piece to try and keep my own balance.
42:18
Like when I was younger, I joined the military.
42:24
I, you know, being a sporty kid, I put on a lot of weight.
42:26
We're on double rations. I'm a lot of endurance and a lot
42:30
of body shaming. And I really struggled with how,
42:39
how, how I saw myself, how people saw me.
42:42
And running was a requirement for tests for our physical
42:46
training tests. We for a long time, I don't, I
42:49
can't recall when it changed. We always had the 5K test.
42:52
And so it was a, a purpose in to be weight management and
42:58
physical training tests. And then it changed when I had
43:02
my children. I've got 2 beautiful daughters
43:04
who but when I had when I had them, I couldn't commit to team
43:09
sport. And I was then trying to work,
43:12
juggle, parenthood and running became not only just a physical
43:20
activity for me because I couldn't do team sport anymore.
43:23
I couldn't commit to team sport, but equally just a chance for me
43:27
and it was my space, my time, nobody and I I did the adage
43:34
Murray, you can't cry and run at the same time.
43:37
It's it's really difficult. You got to be able to breathe.
43:40
So but it was my way to just get my release.
43:44
It was my mental health and running for me has always been a
43:47
mental health piece. The natural competitor in me
43:51
sees something that I want to achieve.
43:54
And Paul and I, when he, I'd done a few marathons, I started
44:00
in my 30s and but when Paul came down with cancer and we did a
44:08
bit of a pack that and his Rd recovery, it was quite
44:11
significant, his recovery. And we had, we had New York back
44:16
in 2018. And and then that was a goal he
44:22
wanted to do was finish or he just wanted to get to the start
44:25
line. And so that was then the journey
44:28
to do, to do the 6th. But the journey of running was
44:32
never about the finish. The journey of the running was
44:35
the training and the, and the destination.
44:38
And I am probably a bit more of a destination runner for the big
44:41
ones in, you know, to get to get the holiday.
44:43
And you know, Boston for me was about, I did it straight after
44:47
COVID. I am not good at being contained
44:51
within a close confines. I'm going to let me out and
44:54
about. And I struggled with COVID being
44:57
in lockdown, so that was a goal for that.
45:00
So here for, for Chicago, it really is about finding space,
45:07
finding space for me, finding space for just enjoying what's
45:10
around me because I know in my current role how privileged we
45:15
are to be able to do this. You know, the environments, I, I
45:19
go to them. I know where you know the
45:21
humanitarian and peacekeeping is and it's difficult and just to
45:25
reflect how privileged we are to be able to run for pleasure is
45:29
really and also the surroundings in New York along the Hudson,
45:34
whether it be Central Park and weaving around streets is is
45:38
just a joy and a release. But the I'll tell you what
45:41
though, my week in the lead up to long runs.
45:44
Mary is full of prehab rehab, trying to hold the body in one
45:47
piece to get to the to the start line.
45:51
But I do, knowing that it is something that I love and I
45:58
don't, you know, no one ever asks you and what time you did
46:01
in a marathon. They just go, hey, did you?
46:04
Yeah, well done. You did a marathon.
46:05
It's like triathlon. Unless you're ultra competitive,
46:10
none of my friends will ask me, you know, what my time was.
46:13
It was just like, hey, well done, you did it.
46:15
And so for me, it's a mindset about, you know, very underdone
46:20
for this Chicago one, but just to get out there and have some
46:23
fun. Nice, yeah.
46:24
And I think it is great to get out there and have some fun.
46:26
And you know, we we, we had a great crew up at the Sydney
46:30
Marathon a few weeks back from AFRA getting out there and
46:34
having fun. Some, you know, trying to do a
46:36
PB and do a time, but many just getting there and and and having
46:40
a bit of fun along the way. I remember bumping into singing
46:43
on his way back down Anzac Parade and and we did always
46:46
look on the bright side of life and yeah, very, very good.
46:51
And and and that thing of adjusting your sights and your
46:55
expectations not to get there and thrash yourself if you
46:59
haven't had the ideal lead in and just get out there and how
47:01
do you enjoy it? Yeah, yeah.
47:04
I'm, I'm mindful that you you also spent time as the deputy
47:10
chief of Army. So many things you've you've
47:11
done and and at a time when the the veterans and serving people
47:16
Royal Commission was was playing and and we talked at our for our
47:22
around mental health. We have a lot of serving people
47:26
and veterans in in the the our for our community.
47:31
And I know you've supported bravery trek and, and we've got
47:36
or bravery trust bravery trek is coming up next month.
47:38
If you move your, your, your head a bit, we'll see your, your
47:41
bravery trek shirt in the background there.
47:43
We talk about the community in our, for our and defence
47:47
personnel leave that community or at times we, we talked about
47:53
the autoimmune thing in the defence community, which can,
47:56
can spit people out and be quite judgmental and people end up in
48:02
a, a lonely place. They also end up in a place
48:04
where that financial security can be ripped from under them.
48:08
Hard to find employment outside. We have spouses moving all the
48:12
time in the military, which makes it hard for them to build
48:16
that, that financial foundation and, and continuity in their
48:20
careers and what have you veterans and their mental health
48:27
and, and that transition out of the military.
48:29
You've, you've done it once already.
48:34
Is, is, is a, a place where we need increased focus as a
48:39
community. You, you, you've obviously been
48:44
at the coalface of that in, in Army and, and seen it with those
48:49
around you and, and those that have served with you.
48:52
And for you. What's what's your take on on
48:58
how we need to focus in that space?
49:02
Yeah, look, thanks, Murray. It affects everyone differently.
49:06
And I do think that, you know, you don't collectively put all
49:10
the veterans in the same. This is what they will go
49:13
through. This is what how they will
49:15
experience and and make expectations.
49:18
Everyone's journey will be different.
49:20
The loss of sense of community and for many the financial I
49:24
know we've spoken about, you know, when we were running here
49:28
in January, but also with, you know, bravery trick is really is
49:34
the absolute everything is gone. You know, your, your, your
49:38
perception, your friends are gone.
49:39
Your financial stability is gone.
49:41
Your community is gone. You talk about, you know, and
49:47
it's something I feel a lot, not as one, as a veteran, but
49:51
equally one is being in the military.
49:55
And I, I still have a sadness, you know, I talked to my one of
49:58
my girlfriends. We talked about who is our
50:00
community? What is our community?
50:02
And you don't build up unless you stay in the same location, a
50:08
community over years. Your community is your military
50:11
community. So as soon as you leave it, it's
50:14
and it goes on, you know, you're just a drop in the bucket of a
50:18
huge organisation that goes on. And so how do we then support
50:23
those, those individuals and collectively, how do we find a
50:28
way and listen and find a path to help support them?
50:32
And look, there is much being done and you know, but I do, I
50:37
do really commend all. And what I do like about what
50:41
you're doing, Mary, is you're tapped into what I think is
50:44
really important on the financial side, because the
50:47
stresses of, of the financial, not just when you're in, but you
50:52
know, as a, as you said, your partner doesn't have your wife,
50:58
husband doesn't have super. If they've been travelling
51:00
around with you, they don't have that certainty over time.
51:04
And you know, not everybody leaves when the kids are older
51:08
and are independent. You know, you've got schooling,
51:10
education, There's so many that pressure on.
51:14
And then without the community and the base by which to work,
51:17
it's really important that we collectively who are still in
51:22
and the veteran community who who can and the community more
51:26
broadly to be able to lean in and support and acknowledge.
51:29
And I think we've come a long way.
51:31
I do think we've still got a long way to go, but I do think
51:34
that we recognise our veterans in a way we haven't a lot in the
51:42
past and and we have a a real sense of purpose of what we want
51:49
to try and do and support. I think very much we just need
51:54
to make, you know, to continue to listen.
51:56
And I do see that a lot with you marry through whether it's your
51:59
running, whether it's your with bravery trek, what you're doing
52:04
there and you listen hard and you're able to actually make a
52:09
difference. And it's all of those what I
52:12
call really that empathetic approach.
52:16
And really the giving of it is it's not enough for anyone other
52:23
than the veteran, I think is really important.
52:26
And how do we come together? But equally, there's a lot of
52:30
noise out there. And so how do we capture the
52:36
messaging not being pithy, not being shallow, but how do we
52:39
kept the messaging to build to build the base of support that
52:44
we need? How do we resonate?
52:46
How do we connect with the community of the why of what we
52:50
need to do? And so that's what I think is
52:52
some really we, we got to keep doing it.
52:55
And it's got to be something that resonates with them, you
52:58
know, in a really hyper social media world and lot of inputs
53:02
coming from different, what makes us and our veterans
53:07
different and something that should take their focus within
53:10
the community. And it's about how do we
53:13
communicate that? How do we, how do we share the
53:17
journey and get the get the buy in and the support from from
53:23
from our communities for which we serve in?
53:25
And I do think that Bravery Trek is doing a huge amount of work
53:31
in that, But I do think it's about doing it through a way
53:34
that people can resonate with. I think that's very true.
53:37
And look after us doing a great job.
53:39
We see a lot of serving people and veterans there.
53:42
And you probably won't know that you're running alongside a
53:44
veteran unless you, you crack into that discussion with them
53:47
and, and, and sort of discover that and what we were saying
53:52
before about those, those random, the, the empathy, the
54:00
check insurance with people supporting them.
54:03
It may be that little thing that, that you're listening that
54:06
makes a big difference or, or something you say in supporting
54:09
something that makes a big difference.
54:11
Obviously in, in, in bribery, trust case, providing emergency
54:15
financial support, counselling and education is important.
54:18
Next month. We've got bravery tricks
54:20
starting on the 1st of October and if you can sign up for that
54:24
bravery trick.com dot AU. And also on the 17th of and 18th
54:27
of October here in Canberra, they've got the Dust of Dawn run
54:30
starting at 7:00 PM at the War Memorial on the 17th of October,
54:34
running through the night till 7:00 AM the next morning.
54:36
So those that are in camera, Cheryl, I know you'll, you'll
54:40
probably be in taper for Chicago at that time.
54:44
But those here in Canberra, if you can come along and join,
54:47
please do. Cheryl.
54:48
It's been fantastic having you on the podcast.
54:52
What an incredible career. And I think many of the things
54:56
you've touched on, that empathy that the leaning in to support
55:01
people, having your own true north, but appreciating the
55:05
challenges you face it in in having to try and fit in.
55:09
The one that really sticks with me.
55:11
You can't cry while you're running.
55:13
And I think that's gold. And that idea that we learn in
55:20
to support others, we, we don't wait for the warning signs, be
55:26
that veterans, be that someone on a run, be that a family
55:29
member or work colleague is is very important.
55:33
So any closing comments from you, Cheryl, before we wrap up
55:36
the call? No.
55:38
Look, Murray, look, thank you. You know, for me, I feel very
55:42
blessed. I love what I do and I do what I
55:45
love and but I recognise that's not, you know, that's not there
55:50
for all and is just to reach out and and check in and get aligned
55:57
everything you said and just really have that.
56:01
I call it nearly the humility to just understand the privilege
56:05
that we're in and just to reach out left and right and and check
56:08
in. And it's really important and
56:11
it's who we are and it's, you know what we do.
56:15
Thank you. Awesome.
56:16
All the best to you and Paul and all the best in Chicago in a few
56:20
weeks time. We we, we look forward to
56:21
hearing the fun that you've had during the round.
56:25
I'll send a photo through Murray and I'll see what it's like at
56:28
the finish line. But hey, all the best for the
56:31
dust to dawn and I, you know, you said in before we started
56:34
your double marathon, so I'll put it out there.
56:37
You've got, you know what you're what you're hoping to achieve
56:40
and but enjoy as you always do. And I see this, you know, a
56:46
great amount of build up and a great amount of support.
56:49
So I hope it all goes well and I look forward to doing a sly run
56:53
here in Central Park through October to build up the
56:57
kilometres as well. So be good.
57:00
Thanks very much, Cheryl, and thanks for joining us on the
57:02
after our podcast. Great to have you join us today.
57:05
Thank you very much. Thank you.
57:08
Cheers.