Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 92 - Luc Dochez - Managing Partner at Droia Ventures

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Episode 92 - Luc Dochez - Managing Partner at Droia Ventures · The BioHub - by Avetix

0:04
Welcome back to the Ratso of the Bio Hub.
0:07
Today, we're thrilled to welcome Luke Dossiers, A biotech leader,
0:10
entrepreneur and investor with an exceptional track record of
0:13
guiding innovative therapeutics from concept to clinic.
0:17
Look serves as a Managing Partner at Droya Ventures, a
0:20
specialised venture capital fund focused in on oncology and
0:23
genetic disease. And Prior to joining Droya, Look
0:26
served as CEO of Tusk Therapeutics, an immuno oncology
0:30
company developing novel antibody based therapies to
0:33
harness the immune system in the fight against cancer and were
0:37
later successfully acquired by Roche.
0:39
Early in his career, Look held senior leadership roles at
0:43
Prasenza Therapeutics and Tigenics, where he built a
0:46
reputation for bridging the gap between cutting edge, cutting
0:49
edge science and real world business strategy.
0:53
So join us today as we'll talk through the history of dry
0:55
adventures, the key to raising finance having been on both
0:59
sides of the table and the importance of hiring in early
1:02
stage start-ups. So look, thanks so much for
1:05
coming on. How are you?
1:06
Doing fine. Thank you Tom, happy to be here
1:08
and looking forward to our chat. Yeah, it's a pleasure to play.
1:15
Let's start off with a lot with a lot of little Jomy floor
1:17
streaming. So you see your usual failure is
1:19
by training. Training didn't move element
1:21
roles, the element role hygienics and hydrazine before
1:24
then the year, I mean, let's see what you'd say.
1:27
Can you walk us through a new Walker journey at Q&E and keep
1:31
that used for your prepared job as an investor?
1:33
As an investor? Sure, happy to do so.
1:35
So graduated as a pharmacist, but had no idea what to do next
1:41
in life. So decided to join the business
1:44
course, have an additional degree in business economics and
1:47
an MBA. And then again, as it goes, you
1:51
know, if you're really uncertain what to do, you become
1:53
consultant. So I became a consultant at
1:56
Arthur D Little. And then it's something that
1:58
kind of is, I think important in everyone's career.
2:01
It's about right time, right opportunities, you know, and
2:05
everything has to come together. So when I joined Arthur D
2:08
Little, it was at the eve of the unraveling of the human genome.
2:12
And so a lot of activity in the biotech space, governments,
2:16
pharma, everybody was, you know, wondering what to do with this,
2:20
you know, big breakthrough and where we could sequence the
2:22
human genome. You know what?
2:24
What new information will we learn?
2:26
And so they kind of tapped into consultants all over the world.
2:30
And although I was very, very young and very green, as they
2:33
say, I was a pharmacist. So I understood the words DNARNA
2:38
protein, you know, how it worked.
2:40
And so compared to some of my consultant colleagues, with all
2:43
due respect, you know, being lawyers and economists, pure
2:46
sang, I was although at a young age, you know, thrown into the
2:51
deep and working on a lot of biotech related cases.
2:54
And so that's where I started to love biotech, biotech venturing.
3:00
But how quickly I realized, you know, I, I wanted to be in the
3:03
mat. I wanted to be amongst, you
3:05
know, the people that do it and not just devise them about how
3:08
it could go. And so relatively rapidly, after
3:11
about 2 1/2 years and consulting, I decided to, you
3:16
know, to, to jump into the deep end and help to start two
3:19
companies. 1 was Digenix and 1 was Metaxogenomics and very
3:25
quickly Digenix took off, you know, more rapidly than than the
3:28
taxes were. A lot of learnings in that
3:30
company as well. We can talk about it later, but
3:33
at Digenix, you know, I was, I jokingly say sometimes, you
3:37
know, quickly became the VP miscellaneous affairs.
3:39
So live in a start up whatever needed to happen.
3:43
I held the CEO, whether it was on structuring the R&D
3:48
operations, whether it was, you know, building the reporting for
3:52
the board, helping with fundraising, you know, building
3:55
the story about the company. And I think that's that became a
3:58
quite incredible journey where we went from two person start up
4:02
to at the end, I think we had hundred hundred to 100 people.
4:06
So over time, I opened an office in New York to work closely with
4:09
a couple of the key potential clients there.
4:11
The hospitals for special surgery in in Manhattan also,
4:15
you know, opened for them AG and P cell therapy facility in
4:18
Memphis, TN of all places. Good location in terms of
4:22
logistics for another log a cell therapy company went through a
4:26
round B round C round, you know, you're a next IPO.
4:30
And so that was, you know, an enormous journey that I went
4:33
through and I was lucky to be surrounded by some good people
4:36
and, and, and a good friend who was my mentor, Jill, Jill Bayan,
4:40
who was the founder CEO of Digenix, you know who I learned
4:43
a lot about about biotech from him.
4:47
And so that was that was a great start.
4:50
You know, a lot of learnings and I think one of the key learnings
4:53
was understand what you and customer wants.
4:58
That sounds like a very typical logic marketing kind of driven
5:03
question to ask. But I think sometimes in biotech
5:07
we make the mistake, you know, to try to be scientifically
5:10
perfect. So our founder was a super smart
5:13
man, was a rheumatologist. From training, we developed a
5:17
academic, I think perfect and scientifically perfect solution.
5:21
Unfortunately, you know, we hadn't spent enough time with
5:24
the end user, which was the orthopaedic surgeon, which has a
5:27
different view than a rheumatologist, a little bit of
5:30
a shorter term view in my in, in my opinion as well as as you
5:34
know the patient who you know also thinks a little bit more
5:38
about, you know what doesn't bring me tomorrow, not what does
5:41
it bring me in 20 years from now.
5:44
And so there was a bit of a mismatch when the product
5:47
finally cut it got approved with I would say stellar phase 3 date
5:51
and quite relative smooth approval process.
5:56
We realized that the market uptake was a bit slower and more
5:59
difficult than we had anticipated just because of this
6:01
mismatch. And I think having in mind, you
6:04
know, what do we ultimately bring to the patient with our
6:07
scientific solution is a lesson that I took throughout the rest
6:11
of my career. No, no, this was, this was good.
6:13
So this was the first kind of venture, you know, but after
6:16
about 8 years there, you know, I could kind of start a sentence
6:20
that the CEO could finish or vice versa.
6:22
He could start the sentence and I could finish it.
6:24
I think, you know, although he was a great mentor, it was time
6:27
to part ways. You know, I wanted to be a
6:30
successful biotech guy. And the story I kept hearing
6:33
was, you know, if you want to be that, you got to do at least one
6:36
big pharma deal, which was hard to do at Digenix, to be honest,
6:40
as we decided to commercialize the product ourself.
6:43
It was based in reference centers and didn't build, you
6:46
know, didn't need a large infrastructure or sales
6:48
infrastructure. So I decided to part ways and
6:52
join Procenza, which was in those days quite early, fighting
6:56
against Duchamp, which is a terrible disease, you know,
6:59
affecting young boys. And and I felt, you know, very
7:02
passionate about what they were trying to do.
7:04
And, and that's why I joined them in the Netherlands.
7:07
And another great learning experience.
7:09
You know, we're bored with very seasoned investors led by
7:12
Abingwords and LSP, joined by others, you know, got to work
7:16
closely with Steve Dunting. Martin Fleback had a great CEO
7:20
coming in and she come, you know, with the Genzyme
7:23
background and and there, you know, you really felt that it's
7:27
important to listen to patients. What what is important to a
7:30
patient isn't always the same as what you know, seems important
7:35
to you and me as being quote UN quote healthy, healthy person.
7:38
So that was another great learning experience.
7:41
There's a large deal with GSK, ultimately went through a NASDAQ
7:44
IPO with a lot of ups and downs and then sold the company to buy
7:47
Amarin in 2015. And, and it's true, all these
7:51
experience, you know, both on the development side, ups and
7:54
downs, you know, not panicking when you get some data you don't
7:57
understand, trying to be very transparent about it, but but
8:01
also very, I would say, rational about it and see ultimately, if
8:05
it still helps patients, you know, can we continue
8:09
understanding the real patient need?
8:11
All of that. I think was, was also guiding
8:13
towards being ready to become ACEO after, you know, the
8:17
successful exit with, with Procenza, you know, it was ready
8:21
to step up to the, you know, to the end game, I would say, and
8:24
become ACEO of just therapeutics.
8:27
So that's how I ended up there. So today you'll serve as a
8:32
managing partner at Joy Adventures.
8:34
For those who may not be as familiar with Droya, can you
8:37
walk us through the history of the Ferb and how it has evolved
8:40
over time? Sure.
8:42
So Droya was kind of started as an initiative by Luke
8:47
Ferrelstein, Young Willemnasis. We're still my partners at Droya
8:51
today. Luke was a successful
8:54
entrepreneur, mostly in the real estate business, but his sister
8:57
got affected by cancer and he felt the need, you know, to do
9:02
something. He managed to build a team
9:05
around him that could successfully advise her and you
9:07
know, she's still a cancer survivor and doing great today.
9:11
But look, also felt the need to kind of see and, and he noticed
9:15
quickly that there was like a gap between initial research and
9:18
an academic research in the cancer field and bringing new
9:22
therapeutics to market. And so he started this first
9:24
fund to dry out, which was purely oncology, you know,
9:28
focused and, and being such a specialist investor was
9:31
interesting. I got to know them as I became
9:33
the CEO of Dusk, which was one of their first investments.
9:37
And although after the exit from persons, I thought I could sit
9:40
on the beach, you know, I saw the passion with Luke and young
9:43
Willem and, and the team and, you know, got also very excited
9:46
about the opportunity to help cancer patients and see what we
9:49
can do there. And that's how I kind of got to
9:52
know them. By the time we exited dusk by
9:56
the sail to rush, they started their second fund, which was
9:59
still very oncology focused. And initially I joined as a
10:03
venture partner, half time partner, you know, helping in
10:06
their second oncology funds, still on the board of two of the
10:10
portfolio companies there. But also I kept half of my time
10:14
reserved outside of Dryad to work on the companies, you know,
10:17
new start-ups that I was working on to help patients with genetic
10:22
diseases, rare in genetic diseases.
10:24
That doesn't always have to be rare, but this just genetic
10:26
background is something that has always inspired me and, and kind
10:31
of driven me to help these patients with these diseases as
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I feel we could kind of come with real therapeutic solutions
10:36
for them by understanding exactly at the genetic level
10:40
what we, you know, what, what is wrong and what can we do about
10:43
it. And so started fecal
10:46
therapeutics, for example, had started for virus and then got
10:50
approached by, by young Well, and we said, you know, you're
10:52
doing this in the genetic DS. There's a lot of overlap with
10:55
what we're doing in oncology. A lot of learnings from oncology
10:59
can be applied due to genetic disease.
11:01
Why don't we build the new a second sister fund, you know,
11:04
tap into the existing infrastructure, the investor
11:07
bases that we already have. And and that's how I ended up,
11:11
you know, being a managing partner at the Genetic Disease
11:15
Fund. And now, you know, worlds have
11:17
raised the Joy of Four fund, which is a combination of
11:21
genetic and oncology. And I'm working with the team.
11:24
And I think that was a, you know, an interesting transition
11:27
for me to move from one side to the other, but certainly has
11:31
been an interesting experience. Very good.
11:38
I think there's a lot of venture funds that describe themselves
11:41
as hands on, but Troy often goes further by incubating companies
11:44
and taking active board roles within the portfolio.
11:48
How would you describe Droy's approach, and what kind of
11:51
support do you and your team provide once you've invested
11:54
into a company? Yeah.
11:57
Well, I think there's there's a couple of important nuances here
12:02
as we're a specialist investor. So you know, we focus or on
12:06
oncology or on genetic disease. So that's already a niche when
12:09
in biotech we only do therapeutics, so we don't focus
12:12
on diagnostics or medical devices.
12:15
So thereby if you focus on on certain areas, you have to try
12:19
to excel in that. And you know, you can build a
12:22
team that is focused just on that specific area of over drug
12:26
development industry. And so by having people that go
12:30
deep and, and go very deep, both at this initial scientific
12:34
level, I think we can typically show the companies that we truly
12:38
understand what is happening, that we can kind of also bring
12:41
experts to the table that can be very relevant.
12:43
And I'm not saying we're exclusive in that, but it's
12:46
something we just try to do, dig a little bit deeper and go a
12:49
little bit further than than some of our colleagues do.
12:53
And then on top of that, if we really start companies ourself,
12:57
we can bring in also some handy initial support, legal support,
13:00
financial support, HR support, you know, we even have our own
13:04
laps, you know, where we can kind of incubate a company if
13:07
need to be. I think that also is quite
13:10
unique and, and obviously we can only do as much of those.
13:14
And we do also a number of typical other investments, but
13:18
you know, where we don't build a company from scratch and we just
13:21
join an existing company as a syndicate member.
13:23
But but, but having that ability, you know, having people
13:26
that have gone through a few of those exercises is something
13:29
that I think could be a value add to a lot of companies out
13:32
there. And then finally, at the board
13:34
level, we have people like, you know, George Golombasky, who's a
13:37
seasoned deal maker in oncology. You know what at Celgene in the
13:42
past, you know, who can take board roles for us myself, I've
13:46
been in the shoes of ACEO, you know, before.
13:48
And I think also that brings some value adds to the table
13:52
that we're not only looking at it with our investor hat, but
13:56
that we've often been on either side of the table as a buy side
14:00
or a sell side guy as well. You know, I think that but also
14:03
bring some additional expertise to the boardroom which is
14:06
helpful for the executive teams that the companies we invest in.
14:13
OK. And I think so you've LED, are
14:16
you having LED operating companies and now investments
14:19
you've seen deal making from both sides of the table.
14:23
What do you think it makes for a truly compelling biotech
14:26
investment opportunity? I know how difficult the market
14:29
is obviously at the moment, but yeah, I guess what makes a
14:32
compelling opportunity. You know, I think I still focus
14:35
on on the fundamentals to be honest.
14:38
And, and that is, you know, can we truly help patients?
14:41
Is there truly an unmet medical need?
14:43
And if, you know, and it's always a big if, if everything
14:46
that we kind of hope to achieve pans out, will we really change
14:51
those patients lives and, and not just marginally, will it
14:55
kind of really kind of give them a more or less quote, UN quote
14:59
normal life back. And I think whether that's then
15:02
an acid approach or a platform approach, I want to see some
15:05
acid finality. I want to understand, you know,
15:08
what our product could bring to the patient and how it kind of
15:11
help in the treatment paradigm for that specific disease.
15:15
And if if that fits, you know, if that, if I believe that that
15:18
is the case and that we can really have, if all goes well,
15:22
have a true impact that that's important.
15:24
And so with that comes a number, number of certain, you know,
15:27
logical things that I think all of us look for.
15:30
Is there a good model to test this in?
15:33
How quickly can I get into patients?
15:35
You know, how is there a biomarker that can predict, you
15:38
know, long term benefit to the patients?
15:41
I think some of these things also are are important then as
15:45
quote UN quote a check. But if, if I can kind of believe
15:48
that we understand the biology, we understand that if we kind of
15:53
focus on that biology, bring a drug that kind of addresses
15:57
really the, the issue of the disease and that if that works
16:01
out and we can make that, that then the patient will have a
16:04
much better life. I think that's where it all
16:06
boils down to and that's what you look for, whether it's then
16:09
one asset or more of a platform that leads to an asset.
16:13
And then we kind of do more of those things.
16:15
I think that that follows thereafter, but it initially
16:18
starts with me getting excited about truly helping the patients
16:21
to addressing the the root cause of the disease.
16:27
OK. And from your experience, so
16:30
you've been both raising money as ACEO and now writing cheques
16:33
as an investor, what are the key ingredients that you think will
16:37
help get a deal done? Yeah, that's always, you know,
16:41
that's always stuff. I said it before, it's a lot of,
16:43
you know, right time, right moment.
16:45
And then I say, you know, a lot of luck that you need the right
16:50
time, right moment is also important.
16:52
Are you addressing something where a lot of people have an
16:54
interest in? And unfortunately, it's
16:56
sometimes like this in our space.
16:58
You know, sometimes things are hot and sometimes they're not.
17:02
And you kind of got to try to, to ride the right waves, like
17:06
like a surferman, you've got to catch the right wave and, and,
17:09
and that kind of will make you successful.
17:12
But I think again, back to the fundamentals that I said
17:16
earlier, if, if, if you have something that can truly make a
17:19
difference and you have a path forward, how you can demonstrate
17:23
step by step that you know, it is moving in the right
17:25
direction. I think that's important.
17:28
And then also, you know, having a team there, ideally that has
17:31
done it before, but at least shows the passion and the
17:34
motivation and, you know, shows that they can do the right
17:38
things will also help to kind of get investors over the finish
17:42
line. And some days that's easier than
17:45
other days. And I think having been in this
17:48
industry for over 25 years now, we all know that after rain
17:52
comes sun and after sun comes rain again.
17:54
So you know, there there is a cycle that that goes up and
17:57
down. But but I think they're then
18:00
timing that right, being smart also on what you can do.
18:03
And I would also say seeing a company that's very rational
18:08
about what they do, that is really focused on on building
18:11
value and showing that this is a drug, you know, that has a lot
18:14
of potential for patients is important.
18:18
If it's too quickly, you know, focused on building a too large
18:22
organization, I think that's not always a good signal in this
18:26
market. But I think these are just some
18:28
of the things we can look for. It's it's, it's hard.
18:31
Also it's, it's sometimes more art than pure science in my
18:34
view, because some people are just good at, at raising people
18:40
at raising money and, and having people to follow them into, you
18:44
know, the path that they've chosen where others, you know,
18:46
with the same data can't really kind of get there.
18:50
And this reminds me of a quote from a mentor I had to even in
18:54
my earlier consulting days who told me, look, you know,
18:58
biotech, yes, it's about generating data, but it's as
19:02
important to have the right story and to know how to tell
19:04
the story. And I think that's, that's an
19:06
important nuance as well. And, and like I said, sometimes
19:10
that's a little bit more of an art and a science and it's hard
19:12
to kind of put your finger on, but but it's consistently that
19:16
some people are, you know, just better at it than others.
19:19
And you have to find the people you know that can do that, that
19:22
can tell the story while obviously, you know,
19:25
appreciating the data and also generating the data to back
19:28
their story at the same time. Yeah, you've worked with many
19:34
first time CEOs and you've obviously been in that seat
19:36
yourself. What do you think is some of the
19:39
most important things a first time biotech CEO needs to know
19:43
going into that role and what do you think differentiates the CE
19:47
OS that succeed from those that struggle or burn out?
19:51
Yeah, I think it's a couple of things.
19:53
You know, on the one hand, surround yourself with the right
19:57
people and, and just be humble and, and listen to advice.
20:00
And so I, I got lucky at ask, you know, I surrounded myself
20:04
with some great people like George Columbus, Key, Terry
20:07
Rosen, Eric Row, Winsky, John Merrigan, Nori.
20:10
And so I could tap into their advice because what I also tell
20:13
people as the CEO, it's, it's probably one of the most
20:16
lonesome jobs in the world. You know, your boards want to
20:19
hear from you when things go right.
20:21
And you know if there is an issue, they want you to come
20:24
with a solution to the problem, not just share the problem or
20:27
throw the problem over the fence.
20:29
On the other hand, you also have to keep your team motivated and
20:32
they also look up to you, You know, when things go tough to to
20:34
provide guidance and to have a solution.
20:36
So you need some perseverance, you need pretty strong
20:40
shoulders, you know, to carry some weight and you got to be
20:42
convinced that you're working on something that can make a
20:45
difference. So as a minimum, you got to be
20:47
very passionate about what you do.
20:49
And you have to do it just, you know, because you want this to
20:53
become a drug or to work on something that could become a
20:56
drug that helps patients. And if, if that is not your true
21:00
motivation, it's tough, but surround yourself with the right
21:03
people, listen to their advice. But also you have to have, I
21:10
would say the you have to be brave enough to take decisions
21:14
and to follow through on decisions, not stubbornly, but
21:18
but people look at you for, you know, you're the captain of the
21:20
ship. And so even in, in rocky, you
21:23
know, water, you have to kind of keep guiding the ship.
21:26
And so you can ask advice, but ultimately it boils down to you.
21:29
So you need a little bit of self-confidence as well to, you
21:34
know, to make those calls. Yeah, yeah.
21:41
And I think and I think particularly for early stage
21:44
take Darfur early, I realize. So if they really is cruel,
21:46
actually it's usual what are the common what they commonly Losey
21:50
make, whether he's trying to heal down their team, build out
21:53
their teams, or help them try and avoid them.
21:55
Yep, I, I think it's also logic, you know, as a, as a first time
21:59
CEO or a founder, you're not always, you know, you don't
22:01
always have that self-confidence.
22:03
So they're to hire people that have more experience, that are
22:06
even more senior than you and, and see them as a, as an ally,
22:10
not as a potential, you know, trap.
22:12
I think that's something that people sometimes don't think
22:15
about. Also, hire people early enough
22:18
and try to build a strong team spirit early enough.
22:21
When I was a precenza, we had a quite senior C-Suite very early
22:26
on, but that gave us the opportunity when we were in a
22:29
bit of more rocky water. We were a team that was ready to
22:33
fight together. That was, you know, ready to
22:36
kind of, and that also already knew each other.
22:39
We could have, you know, feisty debates amongst us, but once we
22:42
would go out, whether it's was to the board or to outside
22:45
parties, it was, you know, 1 front.
22:47
And, and I think that's important.
22:49
That also doesn't happen overnight.
22:51
And I think lastly, for example, hiring a chief medical offer,
22:56
somebody with the right medical expertise is also the thing
23:00
where the board says, you know, we can wait.
23:01
The trial only starts, you know, a year, 2 years from now.
23:04
I, I brought in a chief medical officer very, very early on at
23:09
this at Tuscan and his insights were like so valuable to
23:13
designing, I would say the program, even the preclinical
23:16
program, the final nuances to, to the lead candidate.
23:21
So I think, you know, again, you have to have the luxury to be
23:24
able to do that budget wise. But also, secondly, as I said
23:28
before, hire people that are, you know, as smarter, smarter as
23:31
you. And, and maybe also on top of
23:35
that, don't always hire people, you know, just because you like
23:40
them or because they're very alike.
23:42
Sometimes, you know, people that you feel I can maybe not sit
23:46
hours at the bar with are, you know, the right colleagues to
23:50
have because one-on-one then truly can be tree.
23:53
And so if you hire too many people that are too alike and I
23:56
see that, you know, we want to build a great culture, we want
23:59
to build a great atmosphere. So we hire at the C-Suite all
24:02
people that are very similar, you know, characterically,
24:06
character wise and things like that.
24:08
That's not always the that's the easy solution, but not always
24:11
the best solution to have the optimal outcome.
24:13
And I think that is also sometimes a mistake I see people
24:17
make and say, when I go into interviews, it's not only, you
24:20
know, do I want to spend hours at the bar with this, You know,
24:23
with this person, it's really more, what do they really bring
24:26
to the table? And can we really kind of be
24:30
stronger and smarter to gather to bring this drug forward that
24:33
that's what truly counts? Yeah.
24:37
I think particularly with how the current market is at the
24:40
moment, you look at companies that are going down more of a
24:42
fractional consulting route when bringing C-Suite on it.
24:46
Do you see that often as well within portfolios?
24:49
You see it, but it's, it's a little bit of, you know, there's
24:52
pros and cons as with, you know, everything always.
24:56
Sometimes it's OK because if you hire Acmo and it's like too
25:00
early and there's not enough to do, having somebody sitting
25:03
there not doing anything in the office, it's not value adds.
25:06
And then having the input early on could be valuable.
25:09
So in that case it would work. On the other hand, you know, as
25:13
an investor, I want a team that is really focused and committed
25:16
to this, that wants to have skin in the game and not just, you
25:19
know, a consultant that comes in and out and moves, you know,
25:22
between company AB and C. You know, you want them to, you
25:26
know, you commit to the cost because you put a lot of money
25:29
to work in that company. So I won the team there that is
25:31
committed as well and also has some skin in the game.
25:35
So pros and cons I, I can see it and it happens and it happens
25:39
more today than yesterday in this market.
25:41
But you know, like I said, pros and cons to it.
25:45
Yeah, I think it's interesting. I think it's interesting.
25:47
I think recruitment or recited payment.
25:50
She did a little racer beneath the way around and they rate a
25:53
look for the full exactly from the full exact same time you see
25:55
complete 9 GC. It takes you to lead and they're
25:58
usually trying. They just try and outsource
26:00
everything. I'll sort there and let them and
26:01
then I can still time And also I mean help well shouldn't happen
26:04
a lot of sides on both sides. Yeah, I agree.
26:08
And it's, it's a, it's a thin line.
26:10
And when you know, when do you switch, you know, from
26:12
outsourced capacity, capacity abilities to in house?
26:16
Obviously your social balance, you know, goes up and so your
26:21
wind down cost go up if you build a super large steam.
26:24
Certainly depending on the geography you're in, it could be
26:27
quite expensive. On the other hand, you have to
26:30
plan a bit for success. So, so I think it's an exercise,
26:33
it's a, it's a balancing exercise where there's no right
26:36
or wrong answer to it. I think every case in is unique.
26:39
And it also depends a little bit on the people you find and if
26:42
you you know, if you find the right expertise as a consultant,
26:47
that's perfectly fine with me. If you find the ranked expertise
26:50
and that person really wants to be part of a team and be in
26:53
house, then I think you should also be open minded on there.
26:56
And I think it's really about bringing the right team together
27:00
and whether then they're, you know, quoted as a consultant or
27:04
as a full time employee, I think these are details that you have
27:07
to sort out. It's really about bringing the
27:10
right expertise to the team and that really helps to to bring
27:14
the company enhance, you know, the drug that you're trying to
27:16
develop forward in the the fastest, most efficient way.
27:20
That's what really counts. Yeah, for sure, for sure.
27:25
That's you. Then there's a standard only
27:26
that's to marinate you to customer very plastic.
27:28
It was literally you ship quizzition and you ship being a
27:30
biotech CEO, a biotech IO to a full venture invest venture
27:33
investor. How did you find that?
27:35
How did you find in that transition?
27:37
Man, that's really going to the dark side.
27:42
No, it was then it's, it's, it's, it's different.
27:46
It's interesting. You know, you got to see a lot,
27:48
but I, I sometimes, you know, jokingly make the comparison.
27:52
If you're aceo of a company, it's like being a dad or a mom
27:55
and you know, you have one or two kids and they run around
27:58
there. You're everything and that's all
28:00
you care about. But sometimes they go to bat and
28:03
you have a quiet evening. If you're lucky as an investor,
28:08
you know, you feel a little bit more.
28:09
And you know, luckily enough, it's not real life for me yet.
28:13
I'm not a granddad, but it feels like being a granddad.
28:16
You know, you got a couple of kids running around that have a
28:19
lot of grandkids. There's always one of the
28:22
grandkids in trouble. And you know, you can only
28:25
indirectly have an impact on them.
28:28
You can help and you can tell and you can advise people, you
28:31
know what you think should be done.
28:33
But ultimately it's somebody else's decision that has to run
28:36
with it. And so it's a different feeling.
28:39
It's interesting. You see a lot, you get involved
28:41
in a lot and you you can share, you know, some of your insights
28:44
and your experience and expertise, you know, across much
28:47
more different drug development programs than you can do as just
28:51
being ACEO. But you're also a little bit
28:54
further away from the real action.
28:56
So I'm still going back and forth to what I like most.
28:59
But that's, yeah, that that will always be my internal debate
29:05
that I will have, yeah. Good.
29:09
And this is a question that we always finish with on the Bio
29:12
Hub. I know I wanted to give you a
29:14
bit of a heads up on this as well, but if you were to have
29:17
dinner with any free people, past or present, who would it be
29:21
and why? It doesn't necessarily need to
29:23
be biotech innovators, although it can be if you like.
29:27
But yeah, three people you'd like to have dinner with.
29:29
Yeah, as, as I'm a big, you know, foodie lover, I, I decided
29:33
I will go for three dinners instead of just one with three
29:35
people, if that's fine with you. So first, first and foremost, I
29:39
would start always, you know, have dinner with my wife and my
29:42
kids because, you know, whatever you do in your job, having a
29:46
good family around you that is supportive, understanding for
29:50
what you do and, and, you know, is, is key.
29:52
So first and foremost, I would start with that.
29:56
You know, I'm a business guy, I'm a, I'm a biotech guy, but
29:58
first and foremost, I remain a Family Guy and I think that's
30:02
important. Secondly, you know, three people
30:05
that and, and there's many more that I forget.
30:07
The three people I looked up to and I think that I had a lot of
30:10
learnings from and I had the luxury to have many dinners with
30:13
them over the years. Are, you know, Henry Termeir,
30:17
who, who passed away, was the former CEO of Gensum.
30:20
You know, he was a mentor. He was a great guy, you know,
30:23
great insight is how he put the patient first and foremost.
30:27
Same story goes a little bit for John Crowley, you know, who had
30:30
his personal story with two kids with Pompe was a very inspiring
30:35
guy who he took, you know, I would say things in his own
30:38
hands and then build out a great company with, you know, the
30:41
result of a great track that could help his kids, but many
30:44
more kids in the world. And also John Merganory, who,
30:48
you know, built on island, you know, over the years, who who
30:52
showed me how persistent you have to be a lot of ups and
30:55
downs. We now look upon it as a great
30:57
success, but there were, you know, large base as well.
31:00
And, and so I think having the chance to sit with those guys
31:05
around the table once more and, you know, just share stories
31:08
and, and, you know, trying to show them a little bit what I've
31:10
learned from them would be, would be fantastic.
31:13
So again, great people that I think are very inspiring and
31:18
have been very inspiring to me in building my career and
31:22
helping me make some choices that I made as a bowed as a, as
31:25
AC suite guy and, and as an investor.
31:28
So that would be 1. And then maybe lastly, you know,
31:34
I don't know who I would invite to dinner, but some of the, the
31:37
decision makers out there, some of the politicians, because I, I
31:41
still feel that that we're doing such an important job and by
31:45
attack and I sometimes feel that we're really misunderstood.
31:49
And so trying to to find the right people there and, and,
31:53
and, you know, just from the heart share what we're trying to
31:57
do that this is really about helping people and that, you
32:01
know, accommodating that should be a focus and not trying to to
32:05
make this more difficult than it already is.
32:08
So that would be probably the three dinners that I thought of
32:10
for to answer this question, Tom.
32:14
Yeah, very good. Well, I, I loved all of those
32:16
answers and I, yeah, I really enjoyed listening to your
32:19
perspective, just of, of your journey through the field and,
32:22
and some of the advice you've give to first time CEOs, a run
32:25
through Joya. I think that was amazing.
32:28
So, yeah, look, thanks so much for coming on and and helping us
32:31
out with this. It's been a, it's been an
32:32
absolute pleasure. Same for me, always a pleasure
32:35
to, you know, share my two cents.
32:38
And it's not more than that, but you know, every little bit that
32:41
helps in bringing a new drug to market and to patients is what
32:45
you know, why get out of that? And that's why I still, you
32:48
know, love what I do every day. So thanks for that Tom, and
32:51
thanks for giving me the chance to share this with you and and
32:55
your audience today.