Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / [EP 398] Battle Axes: Sean Kelly on the History of Pointy Guitars

Transcript

[EP 398] Battle Axes: Sean Kelly on the History of Pointy Guitars · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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Speaker 1: The lights go down and I've got a bunch of
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Speaker 1: pointy guitars and I bumped in the most sorry man,
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Speaker 1: and then the lights come up for the next scene.
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Speaker 1: He is bleeding, but he doesn't know it right the adrenaline,
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Speaker 1: I'm going, oh man, So there is a real danger
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Speaker 1: to that. On stage, we're totally bumped in rock and roll.
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Speaker 1: I mean gotta leave you. You're reading Little Hands says
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Speaker 1: it's time to rock and roll, Rock, Roll Up. I
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Speaker 1: totally booked.
0:30
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Booked on Rock conversations with authors, musicians
0:34
Speaker 2: and insiders revealing his stories behind classic rocks, greatest songs, albums,
0:39
Speaker 2: and artists. And if you're enjoying the show and would
0:42
Speaker 2: like to support it, you can join the Booked on
0:44
Speaker 2: Rock Backstage Pass on Patreon for just five dollars a month.
0:48
Speaker 2: You'll get every episode commercial free and before everyone else.
0:51
Speaker 2: Just use the link in the show notes or visit
0:53
Speaker 2: booked on Rock dot com. Now on to our guest,
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Speaker 2: the returning guest. It's been a few years. Sean Kelly
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Speaker 2: is the author of Battle Axes, a hard Rock and
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Speaker 2: History of pointy Guitars. He is a JUNO nominated Canadian
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Speaker 2: musician who has performed with Nelly, Furtado, d Snyder, Cony,
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Speaker 2: Hatch Helix and Crash Kelly. In twenty twenty three, he
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Speaker 2: was inducted into Canada's Walk of Fame as a member
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Speaker 2: of Lee Aaron's band by Day, shown on to Music
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Speaker 2: Teacher by Night. He writes kick ass books, like his latest,
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Speaker 2: which tells the untold story of the most outrageous guitars
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Speaker 2: and rock history. Sean, thanks for coming back on the show.
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Speaker 1: Good to see you again, Eric, great to see Thanks
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Speaker 1: for having me on.
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Speaker 2: Right. How's that for an introduction?
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Speaker 1: Oh man, you know what is just like I paid you?
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Speaker 2: That's right. So this book not just about guitars. It's
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Speaker 2: really about the intersection of rock history, design, image, innovation,
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Speaker 2: and the musicians who made these instruments iconic. What inspired
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Speaker 2: you to write this book?
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Speaker 1: Well, you know those shapes, you know. I think we
1:56
Speaker 1: talked about this when my last book, Don't Call It
1:58
Speaker 1: Hair Metal came out. You know, it was the cultural
2:01
Speaker 1: zeitgeist in the eighties of you know, the visual of MTV,
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Speaker 1: you know, meeting this kind of pyrotechnic explosion of commercial
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Speaker 1: pop metal, and those guitars were such a big part
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Speaker 1: of the image and what I associated with that powerful sound,
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Speaker 1: and that stayed with me as I pursued my own
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Speaker 1: journey as a guitar player, you know, from watching JJ French,
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Speaker 1: you know, with his Gil Devin Nine's, you know, Eddie
2:28
Speaker 1: van Halen was you know, obviously with the customized striped
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Speaker 1: guitars and this whole idea of hot rotting your instrument
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Speaker 1: to make it play faster and make it play louder
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Speaker 1: and more distorted. You know, Uh, it was. It's a
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Speaker 1: fascinating thing and it's always stuck with me, those shapes,
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Speaker 1: you know, And really it's funny. As a guitarist, I
2:49
Speaker 1: have a lot of guitars. You can see, I've got
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Speaker 1: a lot.
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Speaker 2: Of Yeah, you got some cool guitars behind you there.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, man. But you know, I'm really you know where
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Speaker 1: some people are really fixated on, you know, Oh, it's
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Speaker 1: got to have these components or or it's got to
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Speaker 1: play like this. I see it and I immediately feel
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Speaker 1: a connection through the visual and it's almost as important
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Speaker 1: as the way it plays, and in fact, I think
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Speaker 1: it informs the way I play the things, you know,
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Speaker 1: the way they're shaped. So I wanted to go in
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Speaker 1: and talk to the people who made these guitars and
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Speaker 1: who played these guitars, and what they thought of them, because,
3:22
Speaker 1: you know, as the eighties kind of fell out of favor,
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Speaker 1: as we dubtailed into the nineties, you know, those guitars
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Speaker 1: became the source of a lot of derision, just like
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Speaker 1: the music itself. And I wondered, and you know, and sometimes,
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Speaker 1: you know, we always talk about less Pol's and stratocasters
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Speaker 1: as being the classic guitars, and they are for you know,
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Speaker 1: myriad reasons, you know, but you know, I wanted to
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Speaker 1: see how people felt about those guitars that they played
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Speaker 1: back in the day, whether they changed their mind some
3:51
Speaker 1: players did, you know, some players moved on to other
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Speaker 1: you know, more classic instruments. Classic But I think that
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Speaker 1: these instruments, many of them classics, And when you see
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Speaker 1: what was the inspiration for their development and where it
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Speaker 1: came from, I think I'm made a pretty good argument
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Speaker 1: for that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and most people think of these guitars as being
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Speaker 2: born in the eighties, but you trace their roots that
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Speaker 2: much earlier. So what does the story really begin.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, story starts in the fifties, you know, with Gibson
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Speaker 1: in there and their their futuristic series of you know,
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Speaker 1: the Flying v the Explorer, the moud Airn. You know,
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Speaker 1: these were instruments that were inspired by the space race
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Speaker 1: of the fifties and that space AHD, but didn't really
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Speaker 1: catch on. It was a little too far ahead of
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Speaker 1: its time. People thought it was a little too strange.
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Speaker 1: You know. They were great fixtures for guitar store windows
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Speaker 1: to bring customers in, but the customers weren't walking out
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Speaker 1: with them. And it was only later when players started
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Speaker 1: to see the quality of those guitars, and those old
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Speaker 1: guitars ended up in the hands of people like Lonnie Mack,
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Speaker 1: you know, like you know, blues men, Albert King, people
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Speaker 1: who take them out because they love the sound. They
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Speaker 1: could get them pretty cheap, and then later on guys
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Speaker 1: like Dave Davies picked them up and find them in
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Speaker 1: a pawnshop and you know, yeah, it looks weird, but
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Speaker 1: it sounds great. It's got that powerful humbucking pickup sound
5:13
Speaker 1: that would come to later to find seventies and eighties rock.
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Speaker 1: And then people like you know, Joel Danzig and Paul Hammer,
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Speaker 1: Hammer guitars, Dean Zelenski, they wanted to take these shapes
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Speaker 1: and you know, as arena rock was starting to rise up,
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Speaker 1: you know, all of a sudden, you need something you
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Speaker 1: could see from the back of the arena, and these
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Speaker 1: shapes kind of fit that that mold, you know, So
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Speaker 1: it kind of met at the perfect time. In the
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Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, as rock became more visual.
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Speaker 2: The Flying v and Explorer were considered flops in nineteen
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Speaker 2: fifty eight. Those two in the Firebird were initially rejected
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Speaker 2: by the market. Yet today they're among the most iconic
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Speaker 2: guitars ever made. How did that comeback story happen?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it does start, like I said with
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Speaker 1: Dave Davies, kind of you know, picking one up and
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Speaker 1: playing them. Guys like Eric Clapped and finding the Explorer
6:03
Speaker 1: and people seeing that, people seeing them live. You know.
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Speaker 1: JJ French tells a good story in the book about
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Speaker 1: going to the film more and and seeing players, you know,
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Speaker 1: playing those guitars and being inspired. And then that's the
6:17
Speaker 1: start of it. You know. Then guys like like I said,
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Speaker 1: Paul Hamer, Joel Danzig, Dean Zelinsky, they're going out and
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Speaker 1: they're finding the value of these guitars. In the case
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Speaker 1: of Hamer and dancing actually going backstage and you know,
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Speaker 1: selling guitars, getting into the guitar trading business and seeing,
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Speaker 1: oh man, people really dig this explorer. What if you know,
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Speaker 1: we made some of these, you know, And and that's
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Speaker 1: kind of where it starts.
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Speaker 2: And Hamer wasn't the biggest guitar company, but maybe one
6:45
Speaker 2: of the most influential. Rick Nielsen of Cheap Trick became
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Speaker 2: one of Hamer's earliest and most visible champs.
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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, that was that was huge, and Hamer were
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Speaker 1: very instrumental in the whole guitar advertising thing where you know,
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Speaker 1: Hamer the ultimate taking out those finding pictures where weren't
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Speaker 1: just a guy holding a guitar, they were action shots,
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Speaker 1: concert photography, you know, putting those into trade magazines and
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Speaker 1: showing the excitement of the visual lines of the guitars
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Speaker 1: and the design and inspiring that excitement into people who
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Speaker 1: would go on to sell the guitars and ultimately the customer.
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Speaker 2: And that was a small company, Hamer, right.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like all these guys, they started small. They were
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Speaker 1: you know, one or two guys pounding out in a shop.
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Speaker 1: I mean Zelensky, you know, he was in his teens
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Speaker 1: when he started this, you know, driving across the country
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Speaker 1: to go to the Nam Show in Hollywood and ern
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Speaker 1: Anaheim and sell its wars like big risks. It's a
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Speaker 1: story of innovation, it's a story of risk, It's a
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Speaker 1: story of entrepreneurship. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Dean Zelenski founded Dean Guitars in nineteen seventy seven, like
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Speaker 2: you said, as a teenager, and he said that he
7:54
Speaker 2: was tired of seeing futuristic rock stars holding these guitars
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Speaker 2: that were designed before rock and roll existed. Was he
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Speaker 2: one of the first guitar makers to truly understand the
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Speaker 2: importance of image in rock music?
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Speaker 1: I think so. I think, you know, I'm sure if
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Speaker 1: you talk to anybody in the fifties who saw Buddy
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Speaker 1: Holly playing a stratocaster, they'd say, hey, it starts starts there,
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Speaker 1: you know, like I mean. But really, I think Zelensky
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Speaker 1: he dialed into, you know, the sexiness of the guitar
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Speaker 1: and that, hey, if you hold this, you might be
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Speaker 1: able to get a girl like the one I'm using
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Speaker 1: in my ad who's holding this guitar and the sensuality
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Speaker 1: of the instrument. You know, I don't think it was
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Speaker 1: just about blatant sexuality. I think it was trying to
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Speaker 1: make a connection between the sensuality of the instrument, and
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Speaker 1: of course, you know the added social benefits of playing
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Speaker 1: a guitar that looks cool to meet girls. I think
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Speaker 1: that does play a factor, and Dean admits as much.
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Speaker 2: And one of the best sections in the chapter on
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Speaker 2: Dean Silensky is about zz top how zz Top, Dean Guitars, MTV,
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Speaker 2: and the Eliminator album all came together to change rock.
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Speaker 2: And he tells this incredible story that Billy Gibbons recorded
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Speaker 2: virtually the entire Eliminator album with a Dan mL talk
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Speaker 2: about how important was that album not just for zz top,
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Speaker 2: but for putting Dean guitars on the map.
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Speaker 1: It's one of these cross section moments, right. You have
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Speaker 1: a guy like Billy Gibbons, a known tone aficionado, somebody
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Speaker 1: who is well respected for his aesthetic, for his playing,
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Speaker 1: for his taste, for his knowledge of how to get
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Speaker 1: great guitar sounds. So he's not only putting his stamp
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Speaker 1: of approval on this brand of guitarist, he's taking it
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Speaker 1: into the visual realm where his band is going through
9:47
Speaker 1: a seismic change where all of a sudden they're introducing
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Speaker 1: electronic dance elements from that are inspired by eighties new
9:54
Speaker 1: wave that's coming into effect. MTV is giving it a vehicle,
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Speaker 1: and of course are going man girls, cars, guitars that
10:04
Speaker 1: flip around your belt. I want to be a part
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Speaker 1: of this. Who makes those? It's Dean Well, you know
10:09
Speaker 1: that's huge.
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Speaker 2: And Billy May has unintentionally become Dean Guitar's greatest recruiter, right,
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Speaker 2: it's a it's a great story that he helped put
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Speaker 2: a Dean mL in Sammy Hagar's hands. That's that's one
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Speaker 2: of the stories in book. The d mL features prominently
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Speaker 2: in the I Can't Drive fifty five video. You'll see
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Speaker 2: it there. Can you share the story of Dean, Billy Gibbons,
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Speaker 2: and Sammy. They're all hanging out at the pool bar,
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Speaker 2: and that's when this discussion comes up.
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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I guess, I guess they're hanging out
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Speaker 1: at the pool and and and Billy comes with a briefcase.
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Speaker 1: Because Billy is such a guitar nut, he has a
10:46
Speaker 1: briefcase full of guitar catalogs with them wherever he goes.
10:50
Speaker 1: And he's you know, connecting his buddy Sammy Hager, who's
10:53
Speaker 1: an up and coming rocker, you know, with with with
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Speaker 1: Dean at the at the pool, you know, and it's funny.
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Speaker 1: It doesn't surprise me. I had one encounter with Billy Gibbons. Uh.
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Speaker 1: I was making a record with Gilby Clark, you know,
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Speaker 1: in Los Angeles airport and I saw Gibbons and I
11:10
Speaker 1: was a little intimidated. I'm sitting in the airport wait
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Speaker 1: to catch my plan. I go, I don't want to
11:13
Speaker 1: bug the guy. But then I'm going, when am I
11:15
Speaker 1: ever going to get a chance. So going up and
11:17
Speaker 1: talking to him, if you start the conversation with guitars,
11:21
Speaker 1: you're you're off to a good start, because man, he
11:23
Speaker 1: just went off and gave me all sorts of guitar wisdom,
11:26
Speaker 1: you know, while stroking his beard. It's like it's like
11:28
Speaker 1: getting the message from the man on the mountain. You know.
11:30
Speaker 1: It was a TV as cool. In fact, when his handlers, Billy,
11:37
Speaker 1: you know, we got to go to a plane, he
11:38
Speaker 1: goes just a moment I'm talking with my young friend
11:42
Speaker 1: and I think it was I was, yeah, and you
11:44
Speaker 1: know what, it's so funny. I asked him to sign
11:47
Speaker 1: something for me, and he wouldn't. He wouldn't sign anything,
11:50
Speaker 1: but he pops open this thing. It looks like a cigarette,
11:53
Speaker 1: you know, a cigarette holder, and it's his business cards.
11:56
Speaker 1: He peels one off, puts in my hand and goes
11:58
Speaker 1: use judiciously. I never used it. I never used it
12:03
Speaker 1: because I had no reason. But I got it. I've
12:05
Speaker 1: still got Philly Gibbons.
12:07
Speaker 2: One genuinely one of the coolest mfors in rock history. Man.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, man. So anyway, he puts you know, he puts Sammy,
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Speaker 1: Hager and Dean together, and you know, a couple of
12:17
Speaker 1: weeks later, Dean Zelensky's handing a guitar to Hagar, who
12:21
Speaker 1: walks out without trying it really and plugged and tells
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Speaker 1: a crowd of eighty thousand people, well, I hope this
12:28
Speaker 1: thing works because you know, Dean Zelensky built it for me.
12:31
Speaker 1: Here we go and rips into it and loves the guitar.
12:34
Speaker 1: And you know, what a great story. It's like days
12:37
Speaker 1: of you know, you know, when we think about today,
12:40
Speaker 1: you think about music and tracks and pre recorded music. Everything.
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Speaker 1: You can't have a mistake, God forbid, there's a mistake,
12:47
Speaker 1: the recklessness, the freedom of that time. I think that
12:51
Speaker 1: these guitars kind of fit perfectly, like They're literally weapons
12:56
Speaker 1: of rock destruction, you know what I mean?
12:58
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Man, Just listen to I Am Allied Forces just
13:02
Speaker 2: today driving home from working, and it was like, I
13:05
Speaker 2: feel like I'm in the room with these guys. It's
13:07
Speaker 2: like you're in the studio and they're just jamming. And
13:09
Speaker 2: that's you don't get that vibe from the newer stuff.
13:12
Speaker 2: And I'm a fan of There is new stuff out
13:14
Speaker 2: there that I really like. Don't get me wrong, but
13:17
Speaker 2: it's so pristine, and you like the mistakes, leave the
13:20
Speaker 2: mistakes in. We want that, you know what.
13:22
Speaker 1: Man. I'm actually working on an instrumental guitar record that's
13:26
Speaker 1: kind of like a soundtrack to this book, and I
13:29
Speaker 1: just feel for it, which is amazing to me that
13:32
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty six you can get a deal for
13:35
Speaker 1: an instrumental record. But I'm grateful for it. But you know,
13:38
Speaker 1: and I'm grabbing guitars from the books and I'm leaving
13:42
Speaker 1: in the mistakes. I crave it. And I'm not using
13:45
Speaker 1: that as an excuse. Not that there's not a million
13:49
Speaker 1: twelve year old kids who can wipe the floor with me.
13:51
Speaker 1: I watch them on every morning. I start my day
13:53
Speaker 1: by getting my humiliation and by watching an incredible player
13:56
Speaker 1: like I couldn't touch them in a month of Sundays.
13:59
Speaker 1: But I miss the excitement and the danger and the
14:05
Speaker 1: feeling of the very first time you performed something, when
14:07
Speaker 1: it's exciting to you. There is a magic in that.
14:11
Speaker 1: And back then, man, you couldn't you know. It wasn't
14:14
Speaker 1: computers and a million redos. You know, you had a
14:17
Speaker 1: limited amount of tracks, you had a limited amount of time,
14:20
Speaker 1: was very expensive, and you just had to get it
14:22
Speaker 1: down and what it was. But what it was is
14:25
Speaker 1: what it was, and you know there's a magic about that.
14:28
Speaker 1: So I'm trying to recapture that soon. How do you
14:30
Speaker 1: feel that, dude.
14:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. But yeah, most of
14:33
Speaker 2: that just has aged, like fine line for sure. Quiet
14:37
Speaker 2: Riots Black Washburn A ten became part of the band's identity.
14:41
Speaker 2: How important was that guitar, not just sonically but visually
14:44
Speaker 2: in helping define the image of early eighties metal.
14:47
Speaker 1: Very and you know, I've got a couple of Washburns
14:49
Speaker 1: in my collection for the very reason of seeing an
14:53
Speaker 1: ad with Carlos Cavazo playing that guitar. Of course, you know,
14:57
Speaker 1: I won't give it away too much In the book,
14:58
Speaker 1: but you know, you find outater on and sometimes the
15:00
Speaker 1: guitars they were playing in concerts or in the videos
15:04
Speaker 1: or it weren't necessarily the ones that they used to
15:06
Speaker 1: cut the record. But but it was huge, man like
15:09
Speaker 1: it was you know, that was a great example of
15:13
Speaker 1: a take on a classic design. They it was actually
15:17
Speaker 1: an A twenty. I think he was playing. I think
15:18
Speaker 1: I think there was a quote in the book that
15:20
Speaker 1: was an A ten that was from an Australian dealer
15:24
Speaker 1: or something, but I think he was playing in A twenty.
15:27
Speaker 1: But regardless, it's it's a variation. They're all variations that
15:32
Speaker 1: I go into quite quite a great amount of detail
15:34
Speaker 1: about the slight variations. Maybe too much detail, but they'll
15:37
Speaker 1: leave them.
15:38
Speaker 2: That's fascinating stuff.
15:41
Speaker 1: But it was that was a take on an explorer, right.
15:44
Speaker 1: So now you get the next generation who are inspired
15:47
Speaker 1: by the shapes, paying you know, respect to them, but
15:51
Speaker 1: putting their own spin. Right, And that was a smaller,
15:53
Speaker 1: slightly rounded, a little more futuristic. You know, we're kind
15:56
Speaker 1: of moving making that futuristic fifties thing more of an
16:00
Speaker 1: eighties thing. It starts to take on its own identity.
16:05
Speaker 2: Let's go back to JJ French. When people think of
16:07
Speaker 2: Twisted Sister, they picture him with the Guild x seventy nine,
16:13
Speaker 2: the Outrageous Guild x seventy nine. And I love the
16:17
Speaker 2: line where you say going.
16:18
Speaker 1: Back there, Oh cool.
16:22
Speaker 2: The line in the book is great. You say, I
16:24
Speaker 2: like my rock bands the same way I like my
16:26
Speaker 2: guitars misshape and sharp and outrageous. Welly, I were Twisted
16:31
Speaker 2: Sister the perfect musical equivalent of a pointy guitar.
16:35
Speaker 1: Man, because it felt like it was on the edge.
16:39
Speaker 1: It felt, you know, they they were. What I loved
16:43
Speaker 1: about Twisted Sister was they look like a bunch of
16:46
Speaker 1: linebackers dressed as Philis Diller, right like it was already
16:52
Speaker 1: like there was something scary, like it had legitimate a
16:56
Speaker 1: scary factor, but also not a Looney Tunes factor like
16:59
Speaker 1: it did. It felt accessible, but it was the perfect
17:03
Speaker 1: avenue of rebellion for someone who is in grade six
17:07
Speaker 1: or seven, who are just starting to feel these things.
17:09
Speaker 2: With me present present company included.
17:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, you're just starting to feel these emotions. In
17:15
Speaker 1: these feelings, you don't know what you're not going to take,
17:17
Speaker 1: but you know you're not going to take it. And
17:21
Speaker 1: seeing those guitars in their hands. And also I thought
17:25
Speaker 1: Twisted Sister was a perf band because really that's a
17:27
Speaker 1: band that's based on a fifties rock aesthetic, right, three chords,
17:32
Speaker 1: chuck Berry riffs, but with this kind of new futuristic
17:37
Speaker 1: thing going on where where it's like they definitely didn't
17:40
Speaker 1: look like Chuck Berry. You know, it did look like
17:44
Speaker 1: fifties rock and roll. It was something else. So that's
17:47
Speaker 1: why I do think they were the perfect band to
17:50
Speaker 1: kind of introduce those guitars and and you know Eddie
17:53
Speaker 1: o Ada with his with with the bullseye, you know bullseye,
17:57
Speaker 1: our val the colors pink, you know real men wear pink.
18:01
Speaker 2: Right, that's right. Yeah, I just saw the documentary on
18:05
Speaker 2: Brett Michaels came up. I think it's from a few
18:08
Speaker 2: years back, but talking about look what the cat dragged
18:11
Speaker 2: in that that cover.
18:14
Speaker 1: Except you know, all of us thought they were the
18:16
Speaker 1: hottest girls they've ever seen, right yeah, yeah he said.
18:21
Speaker 2: Ricky Rocket said, uh, you know, we went in there,
18:24
Speaker 2: you know, thinking we're gonna dress up, you know, with
18:27
Speaker 2: this glam look is kind of glam pirate look. And
18:29
Speaker 2: then Cec was the one I think he had some acne,
18:32
Speaker 2: so they had the airbrush him, which meant they had
18:34
Speaker 2: to airbrush the rest of the guys. He said, But
18:36
Speaker 2: when the album came out, we looked at it. We're like,
18:38
Speaker 2: holy shit, it's pretty. What's his name from MTV? Ricky
18:43
Speaker 2: Rackman was just saying what you were saying. He's like,
18:45
Speaker 2: we're all trying to decide which one was the prettiest.
18:47
Speaker 2: He goes, of course it was Brett, Yeah.
18:50
Speaker 1: Of course. But you know, it's it's funny because talk
18:53
Speaker 1: about a happy accident. That whole album is a happy
18:55
Speaker 1: accident like that. You had a fixed budget, you weren't
18:59
Speaker 1: going in to fix it. Like, that's the artwork, boys,
19:02
Speaker 1: we got one crack at it. That's the way it looks.
19:04
Speaker 1: That's the take boys. And I always think I thought
19:07
Speaker 1: that that record that's a punk rock to me, as
19:09
Speaker 1: the New York Dolls.
19:10
Speaker 2: I thank you.
19:11
Speaker 1: Yes, it's raw, it's it's a little out of tune,
19:15
Speaker 1: it's a little out of time, but the songs are
19:17
Speaker 1: so good and the playing is great, don't get me wrong.
19:20
Speaker 1: It's just it sounds like a young band who had
19:22
Speaker 1: an X amount of time to get it done, and
19:24
Speaker 1: they got it done. And it had that excitement we
19:26
Speaker 1: were talking about.
19:27
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about the Warlock a little bit more.
19:29
Speaker 2: But the coincidence of this is so great because I
19:32
Speaker 2: knew I was interviewing you, and I've watched this. I
19:34
Speaker 2: watched this yesterday and Brett is telling the story the
19:38
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one MTV Video Awards when they totally it's
19:42
Speaker 2: cc just go guitar, I'm plugged, and it was just
19:46
Speaker 2: a disaster performance and that Brett and Cec, who always
19:51
Speaker 2: got into fistfights. After Brett's like, what the hell, man,
19:55
Speaker 2: what are you doing? And he thought he thought that
19:58
Speaker 2: Brett made some real nasty comments to him, so Cec,
20:02
Speaker 2: you know, took a swing and now they're punching each
20:05
Speaker 2: other and he's and Brett's like, I'm looking up at
20:07
Speaker 2: Cindy Crawford and you know, right, all right, But he
20:12
Speaker 2: said I think it was Bobby Dolly said had a
20:14
Speaker 2: warlock and he goes he took this pointy warlock and
20:18
Speaker 2: threw it at Ceci, and I'm like, oh my god,
20:20
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be talking to Sean Kelly about pointy guitars.
20:22
Speaker 2: These are dangerous, right, I mean, you could hurt somebody
20:25
Speaker 2: with these things.
20:27
Speaker 1: Dude, talking about Twisted Sister. I was in De Snyder's
20:31
Speaker 1: rock and roll Christmas Tale, so a heavy metal Christmas musical, Yeah,
20:35
Speaker 1: if you can believe it, and I had I had
20:37
Speaker 1: an acting role. I was on stage playing guitar but
20:40
Speaker 1: also acting, and really I was playing a character based
20:43
Speaker 1: on JJ French, which to me was the coolest. But
20:47
Speaker 1: one of the shows, one of the actors. The lights
20:50
Speaker 1: go down and I've got a bunch of pointy guitars
20:52
Speaker 1: and had a bunch of esp ESP sponsored the show.
20:55
Speaker 1: We had all sorts every scene with a new pointy
20:57
Speaker 1: acts right, and I bumped in almost right. Man. You know,
21:00
Speaker 1: in theater, things are moving, the lights go down, and
21:03
Speaker 1: then the lights come up for the next scene. He
21:06
Speaker 1: is bleeding, but he doesn't know it right the adrenaline.
21:11
Speaker 1: I'm going, oh, man, like I literally like the guy
21:14
Speaker 1: with my axe. So that's a real you know, there
21:17
Speaker 1: is a real danger to that on stage. Wow.
21:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. That's the reason they call him access,
21:24
Speaker 2: I suppose right. N Sean Kelly, the author of Battle
21:28
Speaker 2: ax is a hard rocking history of pointy guitars Metal Method.
21:32
Speaker 2: You described Metal Method as making the dream of becoming
21:35
Speaker 2: a rock guitarist feel attainable. So tell us about metal method.
21:40
Speaker 2: Doug Marx why he connected with so many aspiring players.
21:44
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because you know, it seemed I don't know
21:47
Speaker 1: how other people felt. It seemed impossible to me because
21:51
Speaker 1: when I went to guitar lessons, I'm learning Tom Dooley
21:54
Speaker 1: and I'm learning you know, Ode to Joy or something.
21:59
Speaker 2: You know, when I'm.
22:00
Speaker 1: Starting and I'm going, how do you get from this
22:04
Speaker 1: to there? Like that doesn't seem possible. And don't get
22:07
Speaker 1: me wrong, I had an amazing guitar teacher, but but
22:10
Speaker 1: you know, it was a different method at teaching. You know,
22:12
Speaker 1: you learned the classics and eventually he showed me amazing stuff.
22:15
Speaker 1: But to get to this thing I wanted, I didn't
22:18
Speaker 1: know how. And all of a sudden, you see these
22:21
Speaker 1: ads that are breaking it down into parts hot licks
22:24
Speaker 1: licks in the style of power chords. How to get
22:28
Speaker 1: a right sound, you know, choosing the right gear, changing
22:31
Speaker 1: the right changing your strength, like picking the right strengths.
22:34
Speaker 1: All these things broken down. Now it was beyond my
22:38
Speaker 1: financial means and scope. It was. It was it was
22:41
Speaker 1: actually kind of difficult in small, smaller city Ontario, Canada.
22:47
Speaker 1: To get things delivered from the States, it was a
22:51
Speaker 1: you know, you had to get money orders and things
22:53
Speaker 1: like that, things that were beyond me at the time.
22:56
Speaker 1: So I never actually had a chance to get a
22:59
Speaker 1: Metal Method lesson. But I was so inspired that this
23:02
Speaker 1: guy was breaking down, at least in the digestible chunks
23:05
Speaker 1: of what was important to learn. And I saw this
23:08
Speaker 1: guy carving his own niche. So as an entrepreneur, I
23:13
Speaker 1: was inspired by Doug Marx. He inspired me more than
23:17
Speaker 1: almost anybody, without me ever hearing a lick till forty
23:21
Speaker 1: years later.
23:22
Speaker 2: Did he present these in book form, VHS, videos, audio?
23:27
Speaker 2: How did he package that?
23:29
Speaker 1: It was cassettes first set. Yeah, you'd get a cassette,
23:32
Speaker 1: but you'd also get a book and you'd get the material,
23:34
Speaker 1: and I actually bought You can go to his website.
23:39
Speaker 1: I think it's Metalmethod dot com. I'm not sure that
23:41
Speaker 1: it might have to do a little searching, but you
23:44
Speaker 1: can actually get the classic Metal Method lessons. So I
23:48
Speaker 1: went and purchased it all. And man, the work that
23:51
Speaker 1: guy put in to record all of those things, all
23:55
Speaker 1: those little components, by himself in a little apartment, funding himself,
24:00
Speaker 1: you know, moving from Colorado to Hollywood, setting himself up
24:03
Speaker 1: and all to pursue his own dream of being a
24:08
Speaker 1: rock star. You know.
24:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's passion and dedication.
24:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, and very cool and accidentally kind of turning becoming
24:17
Speaker 1: a cottage industry, you know. Pretty So tell.
24:20
Speaker 2: Me about this, this V to twenty, because you're right
24:22
Speaker 2: that you still find yourself searching for a V to twenty?
24:25
Speaker 2: So what is it about that guitar that has stayed
24:27
Speaker 2: with you all these years?
24:29
Speaker 1: I was looking for it, man, you know what. It's
24:31
Speaker 1: probably looking in a hip Parader magazine or a Guitar
24:35
Speaker 1: World magazine, seeing ads with guys like Craig Chikiko, you know,
24:39
Speaker 1: looking so cool with a zebra print paint job on one.
24:43
Speaker 1: But also you know Helix, seeing the band Helix in
24:47
Speaker 1: concert and seeing the late great Paul Hackman playing one,
24:51
Speaker 1: you know, watching that guitar literally fly through the air
24:54
Speaker 1: as they were throwing them around their necks and passing
24:56
Speaker 1: them back and forth to each other. It was like,
24:59
Speaker 1: I like smaller compact guitars or something about that that
25:03
Speaker 1: I really like, Like the washburds, like you know, the
25:05
Speaker 1: State series. I like that. You know, I've got I've
25:09
Speaker 1: got a little mini V that my friend Less Godfrey
25:11
Speaker 1: made me, and I like it's like KK Downing's Mini
25:14
Speaker 1: V Hamer. I like that. So that looked like kind
25:17
Speaker 1: of this smaller version of every point to guitar you
25:20
Speaker 1: can ever want, Explorer Flying V but had the cool
25:24
Speaker 1: smaller headstock. You know, it just spoke to me aesthetically,
25:27
Speaker 1: but also through my experiences of reading guitar magazines and
25:31
Speaker 1: seeing you know, he looks in concert.
25:33
Speaker 2: What made it? Is it hard to find now? Is
25:34
Speaker 2: it out of circulation or what's.
25:36
Speaker 1: The you know what? I like anything? You know you
25:41
Speaker 1: can you can get the one like carbon that company
25:43
Speaker 1: eventually the name is now keys Well, you can get
25:46
Speaker 1: the newer version of it, so I could get if
25:48
Speaker 1: I want, but I want an older one, right, I'm
25:51
Speaker 1: just waiting for someone to let go of it. And
25:52
Speaker 1: there was a chance I could have bought one, but
25:54
Speaker 1: I bought something else, or you know, it didn't didn't
25:57
Speaker 1: didn't feel like it was the right thing we spend
25:58
Speaker 1: money on at the time, or you know, guitar acquisition
26:03
Speaker 1: is kind of like these magic that magical space where
26:07
Speaker 1: you've got the disposable income, you find the thing that
26:09
Speaker 1: speaks to your heart. It becomes available in the marketplace,
26:13
Speaker 1: especially for an older guitar, right, So it's just it's
26:16
Speaker 1: just one of those things where it's gonna happen.
26:18
Speaker 2: Yeah.
26:19
Speaker 1: Well, there's so many of my little dream guitar from
26:21
Speaker 1: you know, an ivan as Destroyer from the eighties, you know,
26:25
Speaker 1: which I did using my record. And I just found
26:28
Speaker 1: a great nineteen eighty seven Charvel model for from Japan,
26:33
Speaker 1: and I wanted that because I'd done so much research
26:35
Speaker 1: on the factories there and and it's people. Those guitars
26:40
Speaker 1: were made by people. People were involved in all sorts
26:44
Speaker 1: of people from marketing, people, designed, people, would workers, assembly workers,
26:48
Speaker 1: pickup winders. I love that all that someone you know,
26:53
Speaker 1: earned their living and went home and fed their families
26:55
Speaker 1: with that money that they earned making me that guitar
26:58
Speaker 1: that I use on a record in two thousand two six.
27:00
Speaker 1: I find that magical.
27:01
Speaker 2: Well, if anybody was watching or listening to this, and
27:04
Speaker 2: they do know, send go to book down rock dot
27:08
Speaker 2: com and contact me and I'll pass it along.
27:10
Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, John Kelly get Sean Kelly Harvin b.
27:14
Speaker 2: Two twenty What about Eddie's shark guitar was so cool?
27:19
Speaker 2: There was. He didn't use it for a long time,
27:23
Speaker 2: but it was like an aqua blue color to it.
27:25
Speaker 2: I think or thinks.
27:29
Speaker 1: It was a Karina ivan as destroyer that at one
27:32
Speaker 1: point he painted white and then and I think I
27:34
Speaker 1: think he painted white. But what happened was, you know,
27:37
Speaker 1: he was a constant tinker and he chopped that. You know,
27:41
Speaker 1: he saw you know, that jagged shape into the guitar
27:46
Speaker 1: and ruined it, like ruined the sound of it. And
27:49
Speaker 1: he had to borrow Chris Holmes from WASPS guitar. They
27:53
Speaker 1: were buddies in pastes.
27:54
Speaker 2: That's the famous story.
27:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and and you know, but but it looked
28:00
Speaker 1: so cool, you know, like it was. It looked cool.
28:03
Speaker 1: But yeah, he learned. He became a genius of guitar
28:08
Speaker 1: innovation by destroying a lot of beautiful guitars, like a
28:11
Speaker 1: lot of.
28:13
Speaker 2: Keith talks to Keith Richs is like he was laughing
28:16
Speaker 2: when he was on how Certain Stern was talking about that,
28:19
Speaker 2: and he said, do you do that stuff too? And
28:21
Speaker 2: he's like, no, man, I don't. He goes, I'm not
28:24
Speaker 2: taking apart that stuff. And he goes, they give me
28:26
Speaker 2: a guitar, I play it, Like he was just in
28:27
Speaker 2: awe of the fact that Eddie would do that.
28:29
Speaker 1: I'm sure Eddie's had a lot of guitars go through
28:32
Speaker 1: his hands, so you know, hard to tell exactly what
28:35
Speaker 1: he played everywhere. But there are people who know one
28:39
Speaker 1: thing I found out about writing this book. I don't
28:41
Speaker 1: know anything. There are people who know everything about and
28:46
Speaker 1: that's fascinating to me.
28:48
Speaker 2: Well, I tell you, I just had Chris gill On
28:50
Speaker 2: and Brad Telenski with that phenomenal book on Jeff Beck.
28:55
Speaker 2: And Chris is that guy. Man, he knows he knows
28:59
Speaker 2: Eddie Backer, but he knows guitars back and forth. And
29:02
Speaker 2: Brad too. But Chris is you know, He's communicated out
29:04
Speaker 2: with me a lot, and I'm like, damn, man, this
29:06
Speaker 2: guy knows this. It's stuff, man, It's really impressive.
29:09
Speaker 1: It's funny because for a guy who's writing a book
29:12
Speaker 1: as big a book that I wrote on this, I
29:15
Speaker 1: don't really care about the technical aspect of guitar. It's
29:17
Speaker 1: like I've got a lot of them. I'm a professional guitarist,
29:20
Speaker 1: so I kind of know I can put it, you know,
29:22
Speaker 1: I can set it up and fix it if I
29:25
Speaker 1: need to. But I bring it to my guitar local
29:28
Speaker 1: guitar store. I've got a great right here because I
29:32
Speaker 1: don't really care that much. I just need it to work.
29:34
Speaker 2: Right. Well, that's what Keith Richards was saying.
29:37
Speaker 1: I just need it to work. And how it plays
29:39
Speaker 1: is how it plays. It doesn't need to fit my
29:42
Speaker 1: specification of how it plays. If it just that's what
29:45
Speaker 1: the guitar does, I'll do that.
29:47
Speaker 2: Brian May built his own guitar.
29:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got astro like you know people. Thats right,
29:55
Speaker 1: I'm not that guy. I am Joe Average.
29:58
Speaker 2: If that, find the bookdown Rock website at booked on
30:04
Speaker 2: Rock dot com. There you can find all the back
30:06
Speaker 2: episodes of the show, the latest episode in video and audio,
30:10
Speaker 2: links to all of the platforms where you can listen
30:12
Speaker 2: to the podcast, plus all the social media platforms were
30:15
Speaker 2: on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and x. Also check
30:20
Speaker 2: out the Booked on Rock blog. Find your local independent bookstore,
30:24
Speaker 2: find out all the latest hot rock book releases, and
30:26
Speaker 2: before you go, check out the booked on Rock online store.
30:29
Speaker 2: Pick up some Booked on Rock merch. It's all at
30:32
Speaker 2: booked on Rock dot com. Speaking of iban as, we'll
30:35
Speaker 2: stay on that topic. Def Leppardsville, Colm and Steve Clark,
30:38
Speaker 2: the late great Paul Gilbert Stevie VII all connected Tabanez. Right,
30:43
Speaker 2: They started out building copies of famous American guitars, but
30:47
Speaker 2: then by the eighties it becomes one of the industry's
30:51
Speaker 2: biggest innovators. So how did that transformation happen?
30:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, like you said, you know they were making
30:57
Speaker 1: What happened was there was also a dip in quality.
31:01
Speaker 1: And when when when companies like Gibson and Fender went
31:04
Speaker 1: corporate gives them to the Norland Corporation and and Fender
31:07
Speaker 1: to CBS. You know, you're dealing with mass production. And
31:11
Speaker 1: this is a story that goes throughout the book. Once
31:14
Speaker 1: you get into mass production and you're trying to sell more,
31:17
Speaker 1: you got to keep the costs down. There's going to
31:19
Speaker 1: be an inevitable dip in quality. Uh. Things are much
31:25
Speaker 1: better now in terms of that, but it's hard not to.
31:29
Speaker 1: You get further away from the original source of inspiration.
31:32
Speaker 1: Right now you're having mass produced things. The quality control
31:35
Speaker 1: just can't be the same as if you're two guys
31:38
Speaker 1: in a in a workshop. But Ibanez was making these
31:43
Speaker 1: incredible copies of guitarist and people like JJ French and
31:46
Speaker 1: Eddie van Halen uh and and and Steve Plunkett from
31:51
Speaker 1: Autograph and Chris Hosmas. They were getting hipped to this
31:55
Speaker 1: fact that, oh, man, I can get a guitar that
31:58
Speaker 1: sounds as good as an explorer, but I can get
32:01
Speaker 1: it for a fraction of the price from Japan. And
32:03
Speaker 1: they knew when the guitars were coming, you know, off
32:05
Speaker 1: the shifts and it hit the kind of you know,
32:07
Speaker 1: the port cities, you know, the places where where they're
32:11
Speaker 1: coming across the ocean, and these guitars were making their
32:14
Speaker 1: way through and gaining a great quality, a great reputation
32:17
Speaker 1: for high quality. But eventually there were lawsuits and they
32:23
Speaker 1: had to move on. They had to kind of come
32:24
Speaker 1: up with their own version of things, so different headstock shapes,
32:28
Speaker 1: variations on the body and with iban as you know,
32:31
Speaker 1: guys like Paul Stanley came along and all of a sudden,
32:34
Speaker 1: the hottest band in the world is playing. You know,
32:38
Speaker 1: you see the front man playing that guitar. That's going
32:42
Speaker 1: to inspire people, you know, the you know, the iceman
32:45
Speaker 1: and and guys like Phil Collin. You know, they're playing
32:49
Speaker 1: the solo for a photograph and on on an Ibanez destroyer, right,
32:56
Speaker 1: kids are seeing that, kids are wanting that, they're associating
32:59
Speaker 1: with the sounds of feelings that they're having. So Ibanez
33:03
Speaker 1: was right there, and then they kind of struggled for
33:06
Speaker 1: a while. But really there was a company called Kramer
33:10
Speaker 1: that kind of dominated the eighties because of their association
33:12
Speaker 1: with Eddie Superstrat thing on lock. You know, if it
33:17
Speaker 1: was Sharval and Kramer really were kind of the two
33:20
Speaker 1: big dogs. But then Ibanez came along, and a guy
33:24
Speaker 1: Steve Vai starts coming along, and then they come up
33:29
Speaker 1: with the Gem guitar and they become the Kramer Killers.
33:31
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, once By kind of came along in
33:35
Speaker 1: a NAM show. I think there was a big reveal
33:37
Speaker 1: of the Gem with the monkey bar handle. And he
33:40
Speaker 1: was the hot guy at the time. You know, it
33:44
Speaker 1: was the absolute peak of shred guitar and he had
33:48
Speaker 1: the artistic and commercial dominance and he was you know,
33:52
Speaker 1: he had been with Davide Roth. Now he's in White Snake,
33:55
Speaker 1: and that's where Ibanez, you know, come up. And he
33:59
Speaker 1: came up with the seven string guitar too, which which
34:01
Speaker 1: found a new life with bands like corn, you know,
34:03
Speaker 1: and the and and and later on the the neo
34:06
Speaker 1: progressive metal guy, so ivan As kinda took it and
34:10
Speaker 1: and sustained it.
34:12
Speaker 2: What's the guitar that Eddie used on summer nights? And
34:14
Speaker 2: it's also the one I believe that Vido Brada used
34:17
Speaker 2: a lot.
34:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a Steinberger. It's kind of like, yes,
34:21
Speaker 1: the opposite of a pointed guitar. It's like less the
34:25
Speaker 1: headless guitar, right.
34:26
Speaker 2: The headless guitar just straight up, and it's a little
34:29
Speaker 2: bit little smaller.
34:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was smaller. Interesting sound wasn't made of wood,
34:34
Speaker 1: I don't think I think it was. I don't have one.
34:36
Speaker 1: But but it had a system called the trans trem
34:40
Speaker 1: system that you could actually play a chord and then
34:44
Speaker 1: pull up on the on the vibratobar where the UH
34:47
Speaker 1: strings on the bridge and the whole thing would move
34:50
Speaker 1: up so you can move into different key areas. So
34:52
Speaker 1: when you hear Eddie playing it, he can actually pull
34:54
Speaker 1: his guitar up and bring the chorus into a different
34:57
Speaker 1: key than the verses in you know, and and anything.
35:01
Speaker 1: He tinkers with it and masters it and uh and
35:04
Speaker 1: becomes amazing at it. It's funny. I was in a
35:06
Speaker 1: band called four by Fate with two guys he's played
35:09
Speaker 1: with in Frehley's comment, John Ray and Todd Howarth. And
35:13
Speaker 1: Todd Todd has a massive collection of those Steinbergers, so
35:17
Speaker 1: he had him.
35:17
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, and and Vito used it on wait
35:23
Speaker 2: or did he?
35:24
Speaker 1: I think he was playing still playing a strats but
35:26
Speaker 1: then it was more like little Fighter on Yes, big
35:30
Speaker 1: big game he had one and uh and you know,
35:35
Speaker 1: play it to beautiful efact. They're they're incredible guitars. And
35:37
Speaker 1: and I've I've you know, my bass player in the
35:40
Speaker 1: Lie Aaron band, Dave Rhymer, he he he had used
35:45
Speaker 1: to have a Steinberger bass, you know, and he said,
35:47
Speaker 1: you know, the trick with that was that, you know
35:49
Speaker 1: it was it was a little bit you know, unbalanced
35:52
Speaker 1: if you if you let go with one side to
35:54
Speaker 1: go up and like anything, you had to I had
35:57
Speaker 1: to learn how to wheel it. But you know, at
35:59
Speaker 1: the time it was a very hot look and.
36:01
Speaker 2: Sound right For me, This is fascinating because I'm not
36:04
Speaker 2: a guitarist, so I just I love tapping into the
36:08
Speaker 2: brain of a guitar fisionado such as yourself. DC Rich wasn't.
36:15
Speaker 2: They weren't just building guitars. It was creating some of
36:19
Speaker 2: the most outrageous instruments in rock history, like the Warlock,
36:22
Speaker 2: we talked about, the Mockingbird, the Eagle, none of them
36:27
Speaker 2: subtle in any way.
36:29
Speaker 1: They the bit out there.
36:33
Speaker 2: You described finally owning BC Rich Guitars as a dream
36:36
Speaker 2: come true for you. How did this is Bernie Rico,
36:39
Speaker 2: this is the guy here? How did his company end
36:41
Speaker 2: up creating some of the wildest guitar designs ever made?
36:44
Speaker 2: What influenced that?
36:45
Speaker 1: Well, you know, he came from a tradition of a
36:49
Speaker 1: great Mexican guitar craftsmanship. You know, they were building all
36:53
Speaker 1: sorts of stringed instruments in the Mexican folk tradition, and
36:57
Speaker 1: so it was all about hand crapping. It wasn't designed
37:01
Speaker 1: to be outrageous or a heavy metal instrument at all,
37:04
Speaker 1: really it was. It was more about being moornate, gothically ornate,
37:08
Speaker 1: beautiful instruents that first found their home with session players
37:12
Speaker 1: and kind of heavy seventies guys, and you know, people
37:16
Speaker 1: like you know, Rick Derenger were playing them, and you know,
37:21
Speaker 1: all names escape me. Uh Neil Roaldo was Giraldo was
37:25
Speaker 1: a famous guy from Editar. You know, people people like
37:29
Speaker 1: those guitars, Steve Hunter. Uh, you know, the guys were
37:33
Speaker 1: playing them because they had so many tonal variations, you know,
37:36
Speaker 1: and and and and and that's where they were coming from.
37:39
Speaker 1: Everything was kind of the tools. They made, the tools
37:42
Speaker 1: themselves in the workshop that they used to make the guitars,
37:46
Speaker 1: like it was literally all handmade, you know, and made
37:50
Speaker 1: these gorgeous instruments. Of course, once again, as things start
37:55
Speaker 1: moving into the eighties, you know, the shapes guys like
37:59
Speaker 1: Joe Perry starts playing him in the seventies, you know,
38:01
Speaker 1: as rock transitions into something different, you know, the people
38:05
Speaker 1: influenced by by Aerosmith, guys like Nikki six and you
38:09
Speaker 1: know and Motley Crue, they pick up on that poison,
38:12
Speaker 1: they pick up on it, and those shapes fit perfectly
38:15
Speaker 1: with the aesthetic at the time, plus the high build quality, right,
38:18
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was it was a good time. And
38:21
Speaker 1: for me, I was never allowed to have a guitar
38:24
Speaker 1: like that. If I was gonna guitar, it had to
38:28
Speaker 1: look like a guitar, or at least looked like wood
38:30
Speaker 1: or furniture. You know. I think that was the mindset
38:34
Speaker 1: I had. I had the forces of my parents and
38:36
Speaker 1: my guitar teacher saying, you don't want that Pink Warlock,
38:41
Speaker 1: you want this Vender's Spree, which is beautiful and sounds
38:45
Speaker 1: and to be fair, the Fender's Free is an amazing guitar.
38:48
Speaker 1: It probably did sound better than the you know, the
38:50
Speaker 1: the Platinum series Bronze Warlock I wanted, but I I
38:53
Speaker 1: or Pink Warlock, but I really wanted it, and and
38:57
Speaker 1: I never had one until years later in event I
39:00
Speaker 1: got I got an endorsement with that company and proudly
39:02
Speaker 1: played them for many years and they were wonderful to me.
39:05
Speaker 2: That's cool. Now, this is was steering away from the
39:08
Speaker 2: eighties metal guys. But Jerry Garcia's guitar, what is that,
39:13
Speaker 2: because that's one of the coolest looking guitars.
39:15
Speaker 1: Oh oh yeah, I want to see the Tiger guitar.
39:18
Speaker 1: You know, I didn't go into that, but it is
39:20
Speaker 1: like that. That's that guy I wish I knew, and
39:24
Speaker 1: I'm embarrassed I don't. I can't think of his name,
39:27
Speaker 1: but you do see ads and Guitar magazine still where
39:30
Speaker 1: you can get that guy to make your guitar you know, Wow.
39:34
Speaker 2: It really is one of the coolest looking. It looks
39:37
Speaker 2: like it was just a quick search built by luthier
39:41
Speaker 2: Doug Irwin.
39:42
Speaker 1: Is it a Tiger? Did he Tiger?
39:44
Speaker 2: Tiger? Heavily modified custom built masterpiece with exotic woods. M yeah,
39:52
Speaker 2: that's it's one of the coolest commission in seventy three.
39:56
Speaker 2: Built by Doug Irwin, it was Garcia's primary instrument from
39:59
Speaker 2: seventy nine until ninety five. Features a hippie sandwich construction
40:04
Speaker 2: of highly figured woods, a maple core with cocobolo maple pad,
40:10
Speaker 2: doc and cut okay, and custom electronics with an onboard
40:14
Speaker 2: effects loop. Damn that's cool.
40:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, Like you know, guitars like that, they're hard
40:22
Speaker 1: to get into the mainstream because there's so many elements
40:26
Speaker 1: that go into making it. To make that mass producible
40:30
Speaker 1: would require severe cuts and quality and detail right, And
40:36
Speaker 1: I'm sure that guy doesn't want to let that design go.
40:38
Speaker 1: He probably prefers to stay. You know, I don't want
40:42
Speaker 1: to speak for him, but maybe you know where he
40:44
Speaker 1: can exclusive exclusive, there's an exclusive feel, and that's why
40:48
Speaker 1: you know you see the small ad in a Guitar
40:52
Speaker 1: Player or Guitar World magazine. But you know there's somebody
40:55
Speaker 1: out there who's been a deadhead. I saw a deadhead
40:58
Speaker 1: sticker on a Cadillac. You know, go Henley got the money.
41:04
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for checking out the Booked on Rock podcast.
41:07
Speaker 2: If you've just found the podcast, welcome. If you've been listening,
41:11
Speaker 2: thank you so much for your support, and make sure
41:13
Speaker 2: you tell a friend, a family member, share on social
41:15
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41:19
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41:22
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41:24
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41:32
Speaker 2: the full episodes on video, along with video highlights from
41:34
Speaker 2: episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel. Find it
41:37
Speaker 2: at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
41:41
Speaker 2: to the show. It's amazing how many companies are out there,
41:45
Speaker 2: and I hope I cover all of them because the book,
41:48
Speaker 2: you know, it's got so many in there. Creamer and
41:50
Speaker 2: ESP guitars are in chapter ten. This chapter is really
41:55
Speaker 2: about reinvention. You use kissing Alice Cooper's examples of the
41:58
Speaker 2: legacy artist who would apted to the guitar driven eighties
42:02
Speaker 2: by embracing new players, new sounds, and companies like Kramer
42:06
Speaker 2: and esp we made those companies so successful.
42:09
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I think being able to move with
42:12
Speaker 1: the times an artists who like you know, I used
42:15
Speaker 1: the examples of Kissing Alice Cooper because they were playing
42:18
Speaker 1: you know, the guitarist in Alice's band, like Kane Roberts,
42:21
Speaker 1: you know, he was playing he played a guitar that
42:23
Speaker 1: was literally he looked like Ramble and was playing guitar
42:25
Speaker 1: was Yeah, man gaped like a machine gun.
42:28
Speaker 2: What is he up to nowadays?
42:29
Speaker 1: You know what he is. He's a very busy guy.
42:34
Speaker 1: He's a writer, producer, smart guy, like one of the
42:37
Speaker 1: smartest guys I had the pleasure of talking to in
42:41
Speaker 1: the book, and uh, you know, really motivated. He does
42:45
Speaker 1: a lot of visual stuff. He's I can't remember the
42:47
Speaker 1: artist he was working with, but but do a search
42:50
Speaker 1: for Caan Roberts and see what he's up to.
42:52
Speaker 2: It's it's a talented guy.
42:54
Speaker 1: Talented, yeah, and you know, and and Paul Stanley and
42:57
Speaker 1: the various guitarists who were playing kiss like you know,
43:00
Speaker 1: Vinnie Vincent, you know, really had I think the first
43:04
Speaker 1: commercially available Jackson Randy Rhodes model guitar. You know, he
43:09
Speaker 1: was taking that out. And then later on guys like
43:12
Speaker 1: you know, Mark Saint John, you know, we're playing superstrats.
43:15
Speaker 1: And then you have Bruce cu Look who played all
43:18
Speaker 1: kinds of guitars, everything from classic pointy models like classic
43:22
Speaker 1: Gibson v's and Explorers, to ESP's to Kramers, you know, superstrats.
43:29
Speaker 1: So all of these guys were kind of adapting to
43:33
Speaker 1: the eighties reality of high performance guitars, more shocking visuals
43:38
Speaker 1: hard to think of more shocking visuals and seventies Alice
43:41
Speaker 1: Cooper and Kiss buts of in terms of the guitars,
43:44
Speaker 1: you know, like Dean said, they were still playing guitars
43:46
Speaker 1: from the fifties.
43:48
Speaker 2: Chapter eleven, Jackson Sharvel Guitars, California Screaming. That's the title.
43:53
Speaker 2: Southern California was the epicenter of guitar innovation during the
43:57
Speaker 2: late seventies and eighties. By the time we reached this chat,
44:00
Speaker 2: it feels like every road has been leading to Grover Jackson.
44:03
Speaker 2: Was he the guy that finally brought together everything the
44:06
Speaker 2: point to guitar had been evolving towards since the Flying v.
44:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. It actually starts with a
44:13
Speaker 1: guy named Wayne Sharvell, who just passed away a few
44:16
Speaker 1: few days ago, sadly. Really, Yeah, he was. He was
44:19
Speaker 1: a guy who started a guitar shop. He worked for
44:23
Speaker 1: big guitar companies in the password for Fender and and
44:27
Speaker 1: he was somebody who saw the value in customizing things
44:31
Speaker 1: that were specific to specific players. You know, so people
44:34
Speaker 1: knew you could go and get a fast neck, you know,
44:36
Speaker 1: from Wayne Sharvelle. You know, he would do the little
44:39
Speaker 1: detail things that would be specific to each player. And
44:43
Speaker 1: you know that dovetails with customization of hot rods and
44:46
Speaker 1: things that are happening in California at the time. You know.
44:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, that name man Wayne Charvell.
44:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Wayne Charvelle starts it, hires a young guy
44:56
Speaker 1: named Grover Jackson, who eventually, you know, takes so I'm
44:59
Speaker 1: giving you the cool notes version here, but eventually takes
45:02
Speaker 1: over the company, you know, buys it off him and
45:05
Speaker 1: then goes off in his own direction, uh, taking that
45:09
Speaker 1: lead and and and making guitars and being a great
45:12
Speaker 1: guy and a mentor and someone who helped players like
45:16
Speaker 1: Carlos cavaz So and Amir de Rock from Rough Cut,
45:19
Speaker 1: and Jake E Lee and Warren De Martini letting them
45:22
Speaker 1: pick through the scraps, you know, like it was it was.
45:25
Speaker 1: Eddie Van Halen really starts it all off with that
45:28
Speaker 1: slapping together that frankenstrat of his, with you know, parts
45:32
Speaker 1: from lynz Ellsworth and Wayne Sharvell, you know, picking little
45:36
Speaker 1: components and creating this thing that's unique to him, slap
45:39
Speaker 1: and shwin bicycle paint on and taping it up and
45:43
Speaker 1: making something you know that would inspire countless guitar players.
45:47
Speaker 1: But yeah, Grover, Grover's out there, and you know, uh,
45:51
Speaker 1: probably the biggest thing is, you know, meeting up with
45:55
Speaker 1: Randy Rhodes, who you know had previously met with carl
45:59
Speaker 1: Sandobal and made an iconic flying the Polka Dot flying
46:04
Speaker 1: V but later taking an idea on a napkin, you know,
46:09
Speaker 1: to Wayne Shervell and say, hey, man, I'm kind of
46:12
Speaker 1: picturing something like this, you know, with a headstock that's
46:14
Speaker 1: like a concord jet, you know, like you know, the
46:18
Speaker 1: concord you know, and that jackson Randy Rhodes has to
46:23
Speaker 1: this day is still such an iconic guitar.
46:26
Speaker 2: You know, oh absolutely, you know, I just recently. I
46:29
Speaker 2: mean I've heard for years people say that there was
46:33
Speaker 2: some Connecticut connection to Randy Rhoads. And I finally found
46:38
Speaker 2: out that his dad. When his parents got divorced, his
46:41
Speaker 2: dad moved here to Connecticut. Oh really yeah, and he
46:46
Speaker 2: started a business here in and Sonia, Connecticut. I believe
46:48
Speaker 2: it's a Sonia. For many years he was teaching guitar
46:52
Speaker 2: and he was literally Randy Roads dad was literally living
46:56
Speaker 2: like forty five minutes so an hour from me. And
47:00
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I can't remember when he passed away.
47:02
Speaker 2: But Randy's mom had her school on the West coast.
47:08
Speaker 1: That's what's fascinating. You said the town was called in
47:10
Speaker 1: Sonia and Sonia, Connecticut. The music store, the music school
47:15
Speaker 1: that Randy's mom ran was called mu Zonia.
47:18
Speaker 2: I think, Okay, isn't that crazy though? Just small world, man, Yeah,
47:23
Speaker 2: very And for years, you know, pre internet, it was
47:25
Speaker 2: so hard to find out stuff like that. And then
47:29
Speaker 2: I found that out. I'm like, damn, that guy was
47:31
Speaker 2: And you look it up online. You'll see his old
47:33
Speaker 2: bits there and it talks about a little bit of
47:36
Speaker 2: his backstory and the children he left behind among Randy
47:39
Speaker 2: is one of the kids. Just it's a small world.
47:43
Speaker 1: It is a small and it's funny and when you're
47:45
Speaker 1: talking about details and things to this day, there's still
47:49
Speaker 1: mystery that that enshrouds a lot of these classic guitars.
47:54
Speaker 1: And because guys would hide their secrets, right they Eddie
47:59
Speaker 1: would purposely throw you off the track, right like, I
48:02
Speaker 1: don't want you to thinking I did this or this
48:04
Speaker 1: guy did this, and really someone else did it that.
48:07
Speaker 1: And people will argue to this day, even you know,
48:10
Speaker 1: guitar builders, who did what on a guitar when really
48:14
Speaker 1: maybe an iconic guitar was just another guitar that was
48:17
Speaker 1: going through the shop and there was someone working on next,
48:19
Speaker 1: someone working on bodies. Hard to say who did what,
48:22
Speaker 1: But that's part of the fun of it all too right,
48:24
Speaker 1: you know it?
48:27
Speaker 2: Well, you and the book by bringing the story back
48:29
Speaker 2: to Canada. So let's talk about that chapter. What role
48:32
Speaker 2: as Canada playing guitar history that you think often gets overlooked.
48:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean there's a guy named Joe kovichik
48:40
Speaker 1: Lado Guitars, and you know he he was another one
48:46
Speaker 1: of these very gifted luthiers who came over from Europe,
48:52
Speaker 1: you know, started working in Canada doing repairs, but had
48:55
Speaker 1: a vision for creating his own, you know, customized, highly
48:58
Speaker 1: detailed guitars, and eventually those guitars got in the hands
49:01
Speaker 1: of some of Canada's biggest rockers and then moved on
49:05
Speaker 1: to you know, players like you know Adrian Smith of
49:09
Speaker 1: Iron Maiden went on tour to this day, Steve Harris
49:12
Speaker 1: from Iron Maiden, and you know bands in Canada like
49:15
Speaker 1: you know, Lee Air and John Albany, Cony Hatch, Brighton Rock,
49:19
Speaker 1: Honeymoon Sweet, some of our countries, all of our country's
49:23
Speaker 1: biggest Platinum Blonde, most of our country's biggest guitars in
49:27
Speaker 1: the eighties at one point put their hands on a
49:28
Speaker 1: Lado guitar. So I, you know, I thought that was
49:32
Speaker 1: a great story of someone coming from Europe setting up
49:34
Speaker 1: in Canada, helping, you know, really trying to support artists
49:38
Speaker 1: in Canada, but also striking out and making a mark
49:43
Speaker 1: internationally when bands like Iron Maiden find out how great
49:46
Speaker 1: his guitars are.
49:50
Speaker 2: The book Don Rock Podcast is part of the Boneless
49:53
Speaker 2: podcasting network. If you're a fan of classic rock and
49:55
Speaker 2: classic film like I am, go to boneless dot lovable
49:59
Speaker 2: dot app to find over twenty great shows there that's
50:02
Speaker 2: Boneless down lovable dot app, or just go to booked
50:05
Speaker 2: on rock dot com, the Boneless podcasting network. It is
50:09
Speaker 2: what you want to be. Listen with confidence. The last
50:14
Speaker 2: two questions, I'm looking so forward to this. This is
50:17
Speaker 2: gonna be fun. I'm gonna challenge you a bit here.
50:21
Speaker 2: First of the final two. If you're creating the mount
50:24
Speaker 2: Rushmore of point guitar players, who would you choose.
50:28
Speaker 1: Mount Rushmore of pointy guitar players? That really does. But
50:32
Speaker 1: you know what, there's one name that comes up all
50:34
Speaker 1: the time and it's so iconic. Michael Schenker. Oh yeah,
50:39
Speaker 1: pa'tic Flying V. They put that guitar, you know, the V,
50:43
Speaker 1: the crunch of the guitar right right right on his
50:46
Speaker 1: leg and hold it up. And boy, he played it
50:48
Speaker 1: the way he played it and of course is beautiful playing.
50:51
Speaker 1: He's a big one for the Flying V. You know,
50:55
Speaker 1: when I think of pointing your card, I really I
50:57
Speaker 1: keep going back to those eighties RacerX, you know, for
51:00
Speaker 1: Ibanez so Bruce Boullier and Paul Gilbert. Those guys to
51:04
Speaker 1: me were in raz recks the ultimate kind of where
51:08
Speaker 1: punk diy meets incredible virtuosity. You know, you know, wild colors,
51:14
Speaker 1: wild playing.
51:15
Speaker 2: Do you want to go with boats? That would be three?
51:17
Speaker 1: Oh I only get two?
51:20
Speaker 2: Mount Rushmore is you can pick four.
51:22
Speaker 1: Okay, I got four on geez, So okay, I gotta
51:25
Speaker 1: think of this now because that's a personal thing. But okay,
51:28
Speaker 1: let's go pointing guitars. Let's go Paul Stanley, Michael Shanker.
51:35
Speaker 1: Oh man, who's a pointy guitar?
51:39
Speaker 2: This is one Stanley Sankar.
51:44
Speaker 1: Come and kill me because he hated all those guitars
51:45
Speaker 1: he played with that Mr mc mars publicly denounces all
51:52
Speaker 1: those guitars. Let's go carry in the seventies.
51:55
Speaker 2: Okay, that's three.
51:57
Speaker 1: Oh man, you're killing me.
51:58
Speaker 2: Here we're about.
52:01
Speaker 1: Randy Rhodes.
52:03
Speaker 2: Okay, there you go.
52:05
Speaker 1: All right, I already hate myself for the fifty I missed.
52:09
Speaker 2: Right. If you had to name the single greatest point
52:13
Speaker 2: you guitar ever made, not just your favorite, but the
52:16
Speaker 2: one that best represents the history, innovation, and spirit of
52:19
Speaker 2: rock and roll, Which guitar gets your vote and what
52:23
Speaker 2: makes it number one?
52:25
Speaker 1: The Jackson Randy Rhodes, the concord what eventually became the
52:32
Speaker 1: Jackson Randy Rhodes model. So the second variation of the concord,
52:36
Speaker 1: you know, because to me that bridges everything. Randy a
52:42
Speaker 1: guy who comes up in the seventies glam scene, you know,
52:46
Speaker 1: pushing the boundaries but still respecting the roots, going forward,
52:53
Speaker 1: still looking back. But he's got that lantern into the future.
52:56
Speaker 1: And the fact that that guitar to this day continue
53:00
Speaker 1: used to end up in the hands of young players
53:02
Speaker 1: as much or more than any other point of guitar
53:04
Speaker 1: I can think of. You know, I gotta go with
53:07
Speaker 1: the Jackson Randy Rhodes model.
53:09
Speaker 2: Okay, perfect answer, man, You can't beat that. Battle Acts
53:13
Speaker 2: is a hard rock in the history of pointing guitars
53:16
Speaker 2: out now find it wherever books are sold. Look forward
53:20
Speaker 2: at your nearest bookstore. If you want to find your
53:21
Speaker 2: nearest independent bookstore, go to bookdow on rock dot com
53:24
Speaker 2: and Sean people can find you online where.
53:27
Speaker 1: Pretty soon you're gonna be able to find me at
53:28
Speaker 1: Sean Kellyguitar dot com because that's getting made, but right
53:31
Speaker 1: now at Instagram, Facebook, at Sean Kelly Guitar.
53:35
Speaker 2: Got it. I'll put the links up in the show
53:37
Speaker 2: notes Sean, thanks again man, this is great, good to
53:39
Speaker 2: see you again.
53:40
Speaker 1: Derek really appreciate it. That's it.
53:50
Speaker 2: It's in the books.