Latest / The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast / The Cornell Case - Will the Greek system be forever changed?

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The Cornell Case - Will the Greek system be forever changed? · The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast

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Speaker 1: The following episode will be discussing themes of sexual assault.
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Speaker 1: If you or anyone you know is a victim of
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Speaker 1: sexual assault or abuse, call RAINN's Sexual Assault Hotline at 1-800-656-HOPE.
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Speaker 2: That's 1-800-656-4673.
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Speaker 1: Hi, guys.
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Speaker 3: Welcome back to another episode of Dirty Rush. I am
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Speaker 3: Jen Fessler, joined today by my friend, Alisa Donovan.
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Speaker 4: Hi, Jen. Hi, Jen.
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Speaker 3: Hi, Lisa. Lisa and I actually share another podcast called
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Speaker 3: Killer Thriller that is about true crime and the world
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Speaker 3: of Greek life and true crime seem to have come intertwined. Unfortunately,
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Speaker 3: they've aligned. And we have been following the disturbing allegations,
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Speaker 3: disturbing to say the least, surrounding the Cornell 7. So
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Speaker 3: today we are going to bring in an expert to
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Speaker 3: get some more information about this case because it is developing,
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Speaker 3: it seems, quickly. every minute there is more and more
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Speaker 3: information coming our way. So first we're going to bring
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Speaker 3: in Anna Schechter, who is a reporter with CBS. Anna,
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Speaker 3: thank you so much for joining us. We're thrilled to
1:05
Speaker 3: have you.
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Speaker 2: Good to be with you.
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Speaker 3: So, you know, for listeners who are just now hearing
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Speaker 3: about the Cornell 7 case, can you just give us,
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Speaker 3: I know there's so much new information and you guys
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Speaker 3: have done such a good job of gathering it and
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Speaker 3: sharing it, but just for listeners that don't know a
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Speaker 3: really quick summary of what Jane Doe alleges happened that
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Speaker 3: night and how the seven men are connected to the case.
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Speaker 4: So in a civil lawsuit filed in September, Jane Doe
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Speaker 4: alleges that all seven were involved in an assault, a
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Speaker 4: sexual assault. Now she, her lawyer has clarified that four
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Speaker 4: of the seven men she's accusing of rape and three
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Speaker 4: of the seven were there and abusing her, but they,
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Speaker 4: he's clarified that she's not accusing them of rape. Um,
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Speaker 4: she's also filed a lawsuit against the university, the fraternity,
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Speaker 4: her own sorority and a bar where she says she
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Speaker 4: was served alcohol. But of course the most explosive allegations
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Speaker 4: are against, uh, these seven men. And really in particular,
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Speaker 4: two of the men stand out in the lawsuit as, uh,
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Speaker 4: having conducted themselves in a particularly egregious way when you
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Speaker 4: read the details of all of the allegations.
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Speaker 2: And of course, all seven men in.
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Speaker 4: Various ways, either through their lawyers more recently during their
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Speaker 4: Title IX interviews in the past, or what we've gleaned
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Speaker 4: from either audio recordings that have been put out into
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Speaker 4: the public realm or text messages that we've obtained, they
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Speaker 4: have all denied wrongdoing. And they have said that the
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Speaker 4: sexual encounter was consensual and And one of the men
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Speaker 4: says that he just walked in. He did not have
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Speaker 4: sex with her. He did not do ketamine that night
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Speaker 4: at all or do ketamine off of her body, which
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Speaker 4: is the allegation.
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Speaker 2: So if there's really a range.
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Speaker 4: Or there is a lot of nuance, I think it's
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Speaker 4: really important that we are very specific about which allegations
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Speaker 4: are for which man. And to note that at this point,
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Speaker 4: they have all denied wrongdoing and having reviewed the transcripts
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Speaker 4: of six of the men, it's really clear that from
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Speaker 4: their perspective and when they were interviewed during the Title
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Speaker 4: IX investigation, their whole point is even if they felt
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Speaker 4: shame or regret over the night, that they were not
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Speaker 4: aware that she was intoxicated to the point of not
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Speaker 4: being able to give consent. And from their perspective, she
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Speaker 4: was consenting during all of these interviews Encounters which happened
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Speaker 4: over the course of many hours from, you know, late
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Speaker 4: Saturday night into Sunday morning.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
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Speaker 5: Gosh, I have so many questions and so many things
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Speaker 5: that I will try to curtail my personal questions. You know,
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Speaker 5: this has just been so deeply, deeply, deeply upsetting, I think,
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Speaker 5: to every female and any male who has a conscience
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Speaker 5: and a proper moral barometer of any kind. But my
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Speaker 5: question to you right now is what piece of evidence
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Speaker 5: or information has stood out to you the most throughout
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Speaker 5: their reporting? Is there anything specific?
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Speaker 4: For me, having read the full report, text exchanges or
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Speaker 4: what appear to be the full text exchanges between Jane
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Speaker 4: Doe and we'll call them males one and two. Those
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Speaker 4: are the first two that she's accusing in her lawsuit.
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Speaker 3: Are those the two there, I'm sorry, the rape or
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Speaker 3: the other two that she's accusing?
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Speaker 2: Yes, no, those two are accused of rape.
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Speaker 4: One was found responsible for sexually assaulting her and was expelled.
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Speaker 4: The other one was also expelled and was found responsible
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Speaker 4: of sexual assault as well. And those are two of
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Speaker 4: the men who posted to the Snapchat group chat that
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Speaker 4: about 50 men had access to. Not all of them responded.
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Speaker 4: Some of them responded. Male number two was the one
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Speaker 4: who sort of advertised that this woman was available for
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Speaker 4: sex and male number one posted into the chat something
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Speaker 4: very vulgar, but essentially also encouraging frat members to go in.
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Speaker 2: Now, in these text exchanges that.
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Speaker 4: Start a day or two, depending on which man, after
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Speaker 4: the encounters, you really feel like there is kind of an.
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Speaker 4: Friendship with male number two, and kind of an intimate
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Speaker 4: bond that she's feeling, like she's reaching out, she's consoling
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Speaker 4: both of them. It's really fascinating to see this, and
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Speaker 4: you then watch her shift her understanding of things, and
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Speaker 4: you kind of watch them trying to control, trying to
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Speaker 4: maintain communication and contact with her in an apparent effort
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Speaker 4: to kind of take back control of this narrative because
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Speaker 4: from their perspective, from my read of the text messages,
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Speaker 4: it appears that they're getting worried that she's now starting
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Speaker 4: to accuse them of.
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Speaker 2: Potentially of a sexual assault.
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Speaker 4: And that, so those two text chains are the ones
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Speaker 4: that really stand out to me. It's also the most
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Speaker 4: recent documentation directly related to the case that our team
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Speaker 4: has obtained. And so it's probably fresh in my mind.
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Speaker 4: Of course, all of these documents are really, it's chilling.
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Speaker 4: It's upsetting to read all of these documents. The first
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Speaker 4: one being the six-page document that she signed that the
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Speaker 4: investigators gave to the district attorney. Even that has a
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Speaker 4: disturbing account of it.
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Speaker 2: But what you.
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Speaker 4: Take away is the impression that those six pages gives
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Speaker 4: is that she was able to consent. There are a
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Speaker 4: lot of quotes that, you know, they asked her if
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Speaker 4: it was okay and she said yes. And then when
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Speaker 4: you read the actual transcript, there's different language where she's saying,
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Speaker 4: I can say with 100% confidence that I was raped.
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Speaker 2: Right.
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Speaker 5: So they took the, it's my understanding, correct me if
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Speaker 5: I'm wrong, that the university police or committee, whoever made
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Speaker 5: these decisions, took an over 100 page statement and cut
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Speaker 5: it down to six pages, correct? When they gave it
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Speaker 5: to the district attorney.
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Speaker 2: That's right.
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Speaker 4: Her interview happened over the course of two days. I'd
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Speaker 4: have to go look at the page count of how
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Speaker 4: many pages, but Yeah, it's probably about 100 pages because
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Speaker 4: the entire document of all the transcripts is about 565 pages.
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Speaker 4: So that sounds about right. And yes, it was distilled down.
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Speaker 4: And notably, there is no quote, I was raped in that. Now,
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Speaker 4: in the transcript, she is very honest about her willingness
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Speaker 4: to go there. She's honest about her... drinking prior to
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Speaker 4: go to the frat. So she's not hiding any of that.
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Speaker 4: I think she wanted to give investigators a full picture
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Speaker 4: of everything that happened. That's my read having read all
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Speaker 4: of this.
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Speaker 3: So Anna, when you look at, um, what, what you
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Speaker 3: guys have put out most recently, right. I'm wondering what
9:20
Speaker 3: stands out the most, right. What is sort of the
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Speaker 3: new piece of information that stands out the most. And
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Speaker 3: also you mentioned that she, uh, something shifted, right. She was, um,
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Speaker 3: she had a certain type of relationship with, uh, man
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Speaker 3: one and man two, and you, you know, described it as,
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Speaker 3: I don't know. Uh, I don't remember the word that
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Speaker 3: you use, but it seemed that she had a, um,
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Speaker 3: friendly relationship and then something shifted. And the way that
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Speaker 3: it's been, I've heard that it's been represented, it had
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Speaker 3: to do with the Halloween party. Is that still, is
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Speaker 3: that what you think? Was that when the shift took
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Speaker 3: place or do you see it differently?
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Speaker 4: There's another moment where she's to look, she started to
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Speaker 4: hear what people were talking about because word got out
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Speaker 4: on campus and in the fraternity and sorority and Greek
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Speaker 4: life that this had happened. And some of her friends
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Speaker 4: were talking to her and saying, well, wait a minute,
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Speaker 4: that doesn't sound consensual. And then she went and looked
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Speaker 4: at an online Greek life forum. And there was one
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Speaker 4: quote that she saw, you know, referring to Kai Phi
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Speaker 4: as having gang banged a sophomore, essentially. And she herself
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Speaker 4: tells investigators like that was the first time that she
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Speaker 4: had seen it framed like that. And that had a
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Speaker 4: big impact on her. So it took her a couple
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Speaker 4: of weeks for her to shift, for this to shift
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Speaker 4: in her mind. Now, with respects to a party at Kai-Fi,
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Speaker 4: another party later on, because this happened mid-October. And then
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Speaker 4: a couple of weeks later, there's going to be another
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Speaker 4: big party at Kai-Fi. And she.
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Speaker 4: Comes to understand that she's not invited and she's texting
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Speaker 4: with male one about this. And then he says, no, no, no,
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Speaker 4: wait a minute. You're definitely invited. Let me sort this out.
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Speaker 4: I'm going to make sure that you're invited. But I
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Speaker 4: think it was very hurtful for her. She then expresses
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Speaker 4: in those text messages, well, of course, typical, the woman
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Speaker 4: gets cut off and that's very upsetting for her. And
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Speaker 4: all of this is evolving in this bigger context of
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Speaker 4: she's talking to friends. She's starting to understand things differently.
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Speaker 4: She's now on kind of a fact-finding mission where she's
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Speaker 4: calling the males one and two. It's clear from the
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Speaker 4: documentation that she spoke to both of them. We actually
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Speaker 4: have a recording of her. and male one, and a
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Speaker 4: recording of her and another man who she also accused
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Speaker 4: of sexual assault. And these calls, for the most part,
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Speaker 4: when you hear them, they are mostly kind of supportive
12:23
Speaker 4: language until it shifts.
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Speaker 2: And then you hear it shift.
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Speaker 3: Yeah. On the phone call, you mean not just literally
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Speaker 3: on one of these phone calls, you hear a shift happen?
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Speaker 4: You hear a shift happen and it might be that
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Speaker 4: there's another phone call with male one and he tells
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Speaker 4: her everything was consensual and I did not know that
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Speaker 4: you were intoxicated. Everything was consensual. So you piece it
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Speaker 4: together that it starts to evolve in her mind how
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Speaker 4: she perceives how the night went and then her communications
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Speaker 4: with These men also starts to shift. She's recorded some
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Speaker 4: of these phone calls. Those calls were part of an
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Speaker 4: investigation that was going on in tandem with the Title
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Speaker 4: IX investigation. And that's some great reporting that came out
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Speaker 4: of ABC News. They obtained those phone calls. And Jane
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Speaker 4: Doe's attorney confirmed to us that those were authentic phone calls.
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Speaker 4: We have been reaching out to all of the men's
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Speaker 4: attorneys and we've only been able to engage with two
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Speaker 4: or three of them. They have all, the ones that
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Speaker 4: have engaged with us have vigorously denied wrongdoing, vigorously denied
13:47
Speaker 4: that anything was not consensual. And one of the men
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Speaker 4: who is accused of partaking in ketamine and doing ketamine
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Speaker 4: off of her body, his lawyer says that never even happened.
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Speaker 4: He took a hair follicle test.
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Speaker 2: It showed it did not test for ketamine.
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Speaker 4: And he's actually filed a lawsuit, his own lawsuit. And
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Speaker 4: it's actually from that lawsuit that we at CBS News
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Speaker 4: were able to pull a redacted version of the Title
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Speaker 4: IX findings. It's a 99-page document. Much of it is redacted,
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Speaker 4: but there is a lot of detail in there. related
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Speaker 4: to this one man's case. So anything related to his
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Speaker 4: case is not redacted, including the fact that he was
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Speaker 4: found responsible by the Title IX investigation to have been
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Speaker 4: responsible for attempted sexual exploitation. And his lawyer saying that
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Speaker 4: needs to be expunged from his record because he didn't
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Speaker 4: even do ketamine.
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Speaker 2: He walked into the room and left, essentially.
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Speaker 5: First of all, doesn't it track for victims of sexual
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Speaker 5: violence to have a shift in their understanding because of
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Speaker 5: the actual event itself and the way that they can
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Speaker 5: emotionally metabolize what's happening? So are they trying to make
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Speaker 5: it seem as though those text messages suggest that she
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Speaker 5: just now changed her mind because she didn't get invited
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Speaker 5: to a party?
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Speaker 2: I know what you're saying.
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Speaker 4: And having read all of this and digested a lot
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Speaker 4: of it, I think there are two things can be
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Speaker 4: true at the same time where she was there and
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Speaker 4: was extremely intoxicated, was drunk, was encouraged to do ketamine,
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Speaker 4: did ketamine.
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Speaker 2: At one point she.
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Speaker 4: Says in her transcript, in her interview, she was thinking, gosh,
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Speaker 4: if I just do more ketamine, maybe I'll pass out
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Speaker 4: and then they can be accused of rape. she tells
15:55
Speaker 4: an investigator that that was going through her mind and
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Speaker 4: that these men who were also intoxicated, some of them
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Speaker 4: also had done ketamine, did not in that moment understand
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Speaker 4: what was going through her mind, that she was so
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Speaker 4: uncomfortable at times and was not consenting. Particularly, there's a
16:15
Speaker 4: shift where she and one of the men, male one,
16:18
Speaker 4: go upstairs to an office, and another man joins, and
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Speaker 4: at that point, she's done ketamine twice, she says. She
16:26
Speaker 4: only really remembers the second time. She is feeling like
16:31
Speaker 4: her eyeballs are spinning the wrong way. She's feeling really
16:37
Speaker 4: just disconnected, and another sexual encounter ensues, and I think
16:44
Speaker 4: as she's starting to piece this all together, she's like, well,
16:47
Speaker 4: she seems to express, she really didn't want to do that. She,
16:50
Speaker 4: but she always acknowledges that initially she was consenting to
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Speaker 4: that initial sexual encounter with males one and two.
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Speaker 2: Right.
16:59
Speaker 5: But that, and that's the whole, that seems to be
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Speaker 5: very clear, right? There is this question of voluntary intoxication
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Speaker 5: and consent. And let's, can you talk a little bit
17:11
Speaker 5: about that?
17:12
Speaker 4: This is, Very interesting point, because in New York State,
17:17
Speaker 4: if you voluntarily consume alcohol or drugs and become intoxicated,
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Speaker 4: the law in New York State, which I predict will
17:28
Speaker 4: likely change potentially in part as a result of this case,
17:33
Speaker 4: you cannot, essentially, you can't say that you didn't consent
17:39
Speaker 4: because you consented to becoming intoxicated. So I know this
17:43
Speaker 4: is really alarming for a lot of people to hear.
17:46
Speaker 4: I think this is an important point, but I actually
17:50
Speaker 4: think at the heart of the matter is you still
17:55
Speaker 4: need to take every single person involves account and take
18:02
Speaker 4: all of that into account as you decide what happened.
18:06
Speaker 4: And also we all need to understand that different people
18:09
Speaker 4: had different perspectives of what happened that night.
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Speaker 2: And you read that in these transcripts.
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Speaker 3: Do you feel like these boys, they're sort of being
18:17
Speaker 3: lumped together and they all definitely, I mean, that's what
18:20
Speaker 3: I'm hearing from you. You tell me if I'm hearing
18:22
Speaker 3: what you're saying.
18:23
Speaker 5: But aren't they, shouldn't they be lumped together? My big
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Speaker 5: question isn't fraternity culture, partly rape culture.
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Speaker 2: That is what it is.
18:34
Speaker 5: It is like this incestuous way of thinking about their
18:38
Speaker 5: masculinity and the bro code and all of this stuff.
18:42
Speaker 5: Isn't it in some way, how can, I don't know
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Speaker 5: how we can talk about this without acknowledging that in
18:48
Speaker 5: some regard.
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Speaker 4: I think right now in America, there should be a
18:53
Speaker 4: big conversation about Greek life in general and what you're
18:59
Speaker 4: describing fraternity culture. And I also think that every young
19:04
Speaker 4: person who goes away to college needs to have that
19:10
Speaker 4: in their mind as they're walking through their days.
19:13
Speaker 2: It's really important.
19:15
Speaker 4: There's been so much incredible reporting on this issue for years.
19:20
Speaker 3: Yes.
19:21
Speaker 4: This case coming years after multiple other stories have bubbled.
19:27
Speaker 2: Up about this.
19:27
Speaker 3: Yeah.
19:28
Speaker 2: And it's a decades old issue.
19:31
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's not just, it's kids. I just read today
19:34
Speaker 3: about a kid who is now brain dead from being
19:37
Speaker 3: hazed and what's going on in Greek life. And again,
19:42
Speaker 3: here at work, this podcast is called Dirty Rush. And
19:45
Speaker 3: we talk about, you know, some of the joys of
19:48
Speaker 3: being not just in Greek life, but in sororities and
19:51
Speaker 3: the friendships that form and, um, the fun that can
19:54
Speaker 3: be had. And then there's this side of it. Obviously
19:58
Speaker 3: there is a disconnect here. This side of it is,
20:01
Speaker 3: is not at all like what we usually talk about.
20:03
Speaker 3: And I, I know very clearly it exists.
20:06
Speaker 4: Yeah.
20:17
Speaker 3: How do you think they should be treated? As a
20:19
Speaker 3: group or individually?
20:21
Speaker 2: Well, first, I think you were saying tried.
20:24
Speaker 4: I would not say as a journalist just covering this
20:27
Speaker 4: issue and looking at every document and then piecing it
20:31
Speaker 4: together and interviewing as many people who are close to
20:34
Speaker 4: it as possible. I mean, I would never make a
20:37
Speaker 4: judgment on whether someone should be tried or not.
20:41
Speaker 2: I would say that 100%.
20:46
Speaker 4: Each person has to be taken individually. And there's journalism,
20:58
Speaker 4: and then there's the Title IX system, and then there's
21:01
Speaker 4: the criminal justice system. All those three things are completely different.
21:06
Speaker 4: Journalism is not about indicting someone. It's about shining a
21:12
Speaker 4: light on what happened and trying to get to the
21:16
Speaker 4: heart to understand the entire picture. So that's why I
21:22
Speaker 4: think it is important to have the nuance and separate
21:26
Speaker 4: out every person's conduct and have the context of the
21:30
Speaker 4: whole night.
21:30
Speaker 2: And ask a question.
21:33
Speaker 4: Why was there ketamine in a bag in the fraternity house? How,
21:38
Speaker 4: how did that happen?
21:39
Speaker 2: Well, guess what?
21:40
Speaker 4: That's extremely common on college campuses across the country. Ketamine
21:46
Speaker 4: has a dissociative effect on the body. So if Jane
21:51
Speaker 4: Doe is being encouraged to do ketamine, and then later
21:54
Speaker 4: in the night, she's saying she's being pushed to do ketamine,
21:58
Speaker 4: that's a big question. Now, she chose to drink alcohol,
22:04
Speaker 4: but she did not choose to be in the situation
22:07
Speaker 4: that she found herself in. So we just have to.
22:10
Speaker 2: Lay all of that out.
22:13
Speaker 4: It's unclear to me about the choice with the ketamine.
22:17
Speaker 4: It seems to me like she was intoxicated and chose
22:22
Speaker 4: to do that once, although it's even murky to me
22:25
Speaker 4: having read everything, if she actually did ketamine that first time.
22:30
Speaker 2: She then is pushed.
22:32
Speaker 4: Encouraged by... one of the men to do it a
22:35
Speaker 4: second time. And that's when she says, oh, I remember
22:38
Speaker 4: I must have done it the first time because I'm
22:41
Speaker 4: feeling like I'm going to do it the second time.
22:44
Speaker 4: That's the level of intoxication that we are talking about. Right.
22:48
Speaker 5: Doesn't that in and of itself state there is no consent?
22:54
Speaker 2: This is where it's really tricky.
22:55
Speaker 4: When she's describing and when she's giving her interviews, it
23:00
Speaker 4: is not clear to me And it doesn't appear that
23:03
Speaker 4: it was clear to her if when or if she
23:08
Speaker 4: was unconscious, fully unconscious at any point. And I think
23:13
Speaker 4: that is tricky. And that's tricky to deal with. She
23:16
Speaker 4: very well might have been. But when you're unconscious, you
23:20
Speaker 4: don't know. So this is such a difficult case because
23:25
Speaker 4: there are moments that we can't fully know because we're
23:29
Speaker 4: taking her account and then we're taking... Only six of
23:32
Speaker 4: the seven men, because remember, male one declined to be
23:36
Speaker 4: interviewed for the Title IX investigation. So there is no
23:41
Speaker 4: interview for him. Right.
23:44
Speaker 3: I appreciate you're talking about the effects of ketamine because
23:46
Speaker 3: I haven't seen too much of that in the news.
23:48
Speaker 3: And I have been thinking and wondering about how is
23:51
Speaker 3: it different from other drugs?
23:54
Speaker 4: It also has the effect of making it hard to remember.
23:59
Speaker 2: Wow.
24:01
Speaker 4: So she's taking it, but then the other men are
24:05
Speaker 4: taking it. The Title IX investigation also, of course, took
24:09
Speaker 4: into account these Snapchat messages, which carries another level. Now, remember,
24:15
Speaker 4: let's go back to that man who did do a
24:18
Speaker 4: hair follicle test. It came back negative for ketamine. His
24:22
Speaker 4: lawyer acknowledges that he wrote something stupid and immature in
24:27
Speaker 4: that group chat on Snapchat. But his lawyer says, but
24:32
Speaker 4: that is different than carrying out a criminal act.
24:36
Speaker 5: That may be true, but also this idea of de-escalate,
24:40
Speaker 5: you know, sort of making it something silly. What were
24:43
Speaker 5: the words you used? Juvenile or inappropriate or something. That
24:49
Speaker 5: can encompass a whole host of things. And to me,
24:52
Speaker 5: everything that has been made public anyway about those texts
24:56
Speaker 5: are despicable. So, you know, if we're using adjectives to
25:01
Speaker 5: describe things, then it starts to become kind of just
25:04
Speaker 5: your opinion of something when it loses the point of
25:08
Speaker 5: the entire thing, which is that group mentality, that herd
25:13
Speaker 5: fraternity thing, which is, it's misogynistic and it's outrageous. Like
25:22
Speaker 5: anybody that was a part of that string, I just,
25:26
Speaker 5: And it was sent to over 50 people and not
25:29
Speaker 5: one of them said, hey guys, this isn't so great.
25:33
Speaker 5: This is pretty gross. Like no one had, not one
25:38
Speaker 5: person was able to say that. And that is the
25:41
Speaker 5: part that really deeply upsets me.
25:46
Speaker 4: I'm going to add some more gray in there because
25:49
Speaker 4: the very man who sent the initial snap message that member,
25:55
Speaker 4: that initial message, which is, yes, in her lawsuit, as
26:01
Speaker 4: you read all of the documents, he's involved in the
26:06
Speaker 4: initial sexual encounter, a subsequent one, um, involved in the
26:13
Speaker 4: taking of ketamine and her taking of ketamine, uh, off
26:17
Speaker 4: of his body actually. And she texts about that, um,
26:23
Speaker 4: He is the one who later comes in and shuts
26:26
Speaker 4: it down and says, I don't, you know, whatever the
26:30
Speaker 4: F is happening in here, like we're shutting this down.
26:34
Speaker 4: So there are layers of gray.
26:36
Speaker 3: Do you think that has to do with the fact
26:38
Speaker 3: that he all of a sudden it hit him? I've
26:39
Speaker 3: done some disgusting, despicable things here and I'm about to
26:43
Speaker 3: get in trouble.
26:45
Speaker 4: I can't pass judgment because there's not enough from the transcript.
26:51
Speaker 2: To that gets at that.
26:53
Speaker 4: I would want to go back to his multi-page transcript
26:57
Speaker 4: of his interview.
26:58
Speaker 2: Some of them do express shame.
27:01
Speaker 3: For even being- I would certainly hope so.
27:03
Speaker 4: The situation, and it was beneath them. That's like one
27:07
Speaker 4: of them said that in his, a different one, not
27:09
Speaker 4: male one or two.
27:10
Speaker 3: Well, we're so grateful. And we have still so many questions.
27:13
Speaker 3: I hope that you'll come back as this case develops.
27:16
Speaker 3: It is such an emotional, difficult- case.
27:20
Speaker 4: You're hitting the nail on the head by looking at
27:22
Speaker 4: greek life in general i think that's a really important
27:26
Speaker 4: conversation good
27:28
Speaker 5: Good thank you so much anna we really appreciate your
27:32
Speaker 5: time good to be with you