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Episode 336: Afraid to Fail, Afraid to Shine · The Growth Project

• 0:00
  You.
• 0:04
  Hey, everyone. Welcome back. Or welcome to the Growth Project, a podcast by AMP.
• 0:09
  Doctor Corey Schafer here today with doctor Milt Lauter. Milt. Good afternoon, and good to see you, Corey. Glad to be on board.
• 0:16
  So let's dive right in.
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  To our topic for the day.
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  this really comes from, you know, I think doing some brainstorming on the work that we're doing and performance psychology.
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  Primarily and across industry, sport, corporate world doesn't matter.
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  One of the, the really common things that I think,
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  let's just say a topic,
• 0:34
  that people struggle with is the fear of failure. Would you agree with that? Oh, yeah.
• 0:39
  But one that, maybe people spend less time talking about. I would argue is a little bit more rare for us, but I have certainly seen it, I think, over the years.
• 0:52
  I'm sure you have as well.
• 0:53
  Sort of the opposite end of the continuum here. But the fear of success, which is really, really interesting to think about because so many people, you know, that's all they want is quote unquote success, however they're defining it. So the fear of that, a lot of people are probably scratching their heads on like, man, what does that mean?
• 1:12
  So that's what we're going to explore here, over the next little bit
• 1:16
  you know, essentially why do we fear both failing, but also succeeding?
• 1:21
  yeah, I think let's start, Cory, with the one that's a little bit more easy to understand is fear of failure.
• 1:28
  You know, the fear of success is one, as you said, like that first thought is, oh, that doesn't exist. But you can see it play out in different levels. But the fear of failure is one I think we can all, connect to. It it resonates with all of us that any time, let's just kind of get a define what fear failure really is, is just anxiety related to a potential negative outcome.
• 1:53
  And we talk in here all the time. Anytime my focus shifts ahead to the outcome, and the closer you get to the end of a sporting event, the closer you get to the end of a quarter, say, in a business cycle, the closer you get to the end of a life. That fear of failure, kind of peaks ahead.
• 2:09
  There's usually an increase in anxiety and a decrease in confidence. Yeah. And the fear here to to be clear, it's not necessarily that I'm I'm fearing the result or the outcome just for what it is. Yeah, yeah.
• 2:23
  You know, you lose the game or you have a poor performance or you, you don't hit your number for that quarter or whatever it might be.
• 2:30
  It's not inherently the fear of that. It's the fear of like the consequences of that or everything that comes with that. So that could be, you know, negative consequences, shame, embarrassment. The devaluation, like, whatever it might be like, that is where the fear is coming from. Not inherently just like, oh, we lost the game, but what happens when we lose the game?
• 2:52
  Yeah. Not only those internal feelings of of of shame and guilt and the negative, narrative that you create about yourself also, that the consequences of letting other people down, whether it's people on my team, whether it's loved ones around me, not living up to those expectations, those consequences as well, of what it means if I don't achieve this, what might it mean to me, what it might mean to others?
• 3:18
  How are they going to look at me? What are they going to think about me? How is it going to affect my future? You can see this happen. You just think about parenting. You know, the fear of failure as a parent is the consequences are pretty significant and long lasting for your children. And so it's so easy to parent from a position of fear, and fear, just to let you know, it's just the most extreme form of stress or anxiety.
• 3:44
  You think about that, continue in the most extreme form and one of the strongest emotions we experience is fear.
• 3:51
  to our point, about how just prevalent this is and how many people feel this again, everybody can probably resonate with this part of the conversation. But, this has been researched now for almost 75 years.
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  It goes back,
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  some early work, done in the 1950s. So just to give you some context and of course, that research I think has, advanced to come a long way,
• 4:13
  in, in, you know, 65 or 75 years. And there are some different theories as to why that is, you know, one, maybe we'll talk a little bit about here,
• 4:21
  like performance avoidance goals.
• 4:24
  Yeah.
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  or linking fear of failure to avoidance, goal oriented or avoidance oriented goal setting. Excuse me. So again, like, the primary driver now is not necessarily to win, but to avoid losing. That's what that means. Yeah. And if you're familiar with our podcast, you hear that a lot when we talk about Carol Dweck and her colleagues and her research around a growth mindset and a fixed mindset and that avoidance goal orientation, that's what these mindset really are, that if I'm in a situation I've experienced failure, that it's easy to develop, that avoidance goal orientation, that I'm going to avoid trying.
• 4:58
  I'm avoid taking the risk. I'm avoid trying out for the team. I'm avoid doing something different for fear of that failure. And I love the language you used, not necessarily the failure yourself, but the consequence is the impact of that failure. And one of the other themes here are the the theories here. And I actually do spend a lot of time teaching this in a one on one setting, especially so stuff we've talked about on the podcast though.
• 5:23
  But the fear of failure arising from, perceiving performance as a threat. And so all that does is sort of kick, you know, our brain, this fascinating, you know, thing. But still at its core, designed to protect us and to survive. And so if you interpret threat, it knows how to do one thing, and that's prepare your mind and body for an impending threat.
• 5:48
  So it kicks all of that stuff in a high gear. And and a lot of industries, not just in sports, that's not necessarily the right kind of mindset and, physiological state, emotional state to be in, to perform at a high level, at least consistency or consistently. So, you know, those are a couple of theories that kind of explain this.
• 6:07
  What are some of the signs? That you might notice in someone who is maybe struggling with this fear of failure?
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  So the first one, you might see Corey in this fear of failure. So perfectionist type tendencies this this language and self-talk around having to be perfect.
• 6:24
  The the extreme words in terms of always and never the, the the sometimes as you can see them, some obsessive tendencies and rituals and routines that seem prevalent in a person. This fear of failure comes with this increased call of perfectionism. They're trying to control something that is out of their control. Yeah. Another one. And this is pretty closely linked to what I was just talking about a minute ago.
• 6:51
  Choking under pressure. Yeah. So somebody who has prepared the way that they need to prepare, they're able to sort of do it in practice or in training or, let's just say when the lights aren't on. But then sort of the moment arrives,
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  you know, they get into a game situation or, you know, the lights come on and all of a sudden they, they kind of can't do it.
• 7:12
  There's this huge disconnect. You know, a lot of the time that's because of what I mentioned, because they're perceiving that event now was such a threat like mind body. Everything is into, you know, sort of just kicked into overdrive. Just not in a great place to perform. So.
• 7:27
  you know, we're we're recording this a day after Tommy Fleetwood just lost a tournament, which he was leading by three going in the final round.
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  He's never won on American soil. He bogeys two of the last three holes. But as I was watching that last hole yesterday, he's pounded five of the fairway pretty much he makes par. He's going to get in a playoff. If somebody else makes birdie. If he birdies he wins. And he's 147 yards out in complete indecision. Club selection overthinking kind of slowed down.
• 8:00
  His decision making process went from a nightmare to a pitching wedge hit at 50ft short. And then, you know, I think anxiety, that fear can either speed you up or slow you down. So then you get to really quick in just putting routine leaves at 6.5ft short, really quick on the next 1 in 3. But Keegan Bradley birdied and won the tournament.
• 8:20
  And so that's that. You can see that anxiety, that fear slows you up. You know that physiological or or speed you up.
• 8:27
  hopefully it just helps it validate some of what you've, felt within yourself. If you've somebody who you've ever feel like you have, you know, suffered from that fear of failure.
• 8:37
  Let's shift gears here for a minute, though. And again, this is,
• 8:40
  maybe the the one that people are going to be less familiar with, but let's just talk a little bit in the same type of way about the fear of success. So what are we talking about when it comes to the fear of success? Yeah, I think again, the the consequences of if I achieve something, you know, that's what we're thinking about for your success.
• 8:58
  Most likely it's associated with some social or psychological factors. Social means a think about young children and adolescents as teenagers, one of their biggest drivers motivators is to be accepted to belong. And so a fear of success. Someone in that is a buy achieve at a greater level. If I achieve some level of success, whether that's in the classroom or in athletics or in the performing arts, then I'm going to be different.
• 9:27
  I'm a perceived as different. And so that fear of success or those consequences not being accepted, not belonging, being thought of being ostracized, the psychological factor is now that if I achieve something, one psychological impact, now I have to have the pressure of keeping to do it. I have to live up to those expectations, and I don't want the burden of those expectations.
• 9:48
  I may I mentioned on here earlier, as Bon Jovi, I watched that 40th, reunion tour as they were preparing for that. And one of the things he said at his age, you said, I still want to do something great, but I don't want the pressure of having to do something great. To me, that's like the burden of having to do that.
• 10:06
  That's a little bit of fear of success.
• 10:09
  I think the last one hits the one, that I think I've probably come across the most in people is just like, well, if I perform at this certain level, then what I've done is I've raised the bar for myself and now I'm going to be expected, as you mentioned, to sort of do that all the time.
• 10:26
  And again, we actually see this quite a bit, I think, I think unfortunately, you know, think about how many sales organizations like that's how they operate. Yeah. Right. Like, hey, you you sold X amount of product this year. Well guess what. We expect you to do that and then some next year. And if you do that and guess what we're going to ask you to do that again the next year and so on.
• 10:48
  Yeah. You see that self-sabotage happen. Like, hey, I, I'm going to get to that number and I'm going to shut it down, because if I go, all they're going to do is raise the bar and then that affects my compensation. Exactly. So why would I outperform when it affects me in that way? It's a great example.
• 11:03
  You know, I think one of the other things here, like identity conflict, just how this can sort of, it just throws off the narrative, you know, that you have maybe about yourself,
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  or that you tell yourself,
• 11:15
  those are a couple things we're talking about here related to, you know, fearing success. Again, this has been research is taking a little bit longer for the research to, come around compared to fear of failure. And again, that makes sense,
• 11:28
  Corey, the the research that I was looking at, the resources in the research, in the literature, really suggested around what you're saying, this identity is a little bit of the imposter anxiety.
• 11:37
  We talk a lot about the imposter syndrome that I don't feel like I fit in or belong, that I'm out living the expected norm based on my gender, based on my identity, based on my ethnicity, based on whatever that may be, that it's it's not like someone from what say whatever to to achieve this. So this imposter anxiety is once you've achieve something, then your own doubts, your own fears, like, hey, did I just get lucky?
• 12:04
  I did this really happen? And so some of that imposter anxiety can kind of drive that, that I'm not quite sure I can do it again. Yeah. Then similar to that, is actually something this was new in doing the research for this. I hadn't heard and I think this because this was coined in a different part of the world,
• 12:22
  called tall poppy syndrome, which is essentially the fear of being resented by your peers.
• 12:27
  So this negativity toward high achieving individuals, so instead of in, in which you're talking about like, okay, I'm successful, and now there's this internal like, you know, do I even deserve this? Did I get lucky? Did I kind of just fall into this? This is now more of like, okay, do I even want to be successful to begin with?
• 12:49
  Because potentially of how people are going to start to view me and the negativity that can come from that? Yeah. People don't like to see you do things that they don't think they can do or they aren't willing to do, and we used to hear it a lot in our clinical practice of, of young people, in our practice talking about, well, if I do really well on a test and all my friends are asking what I did, I'll tell them that I did worse, you know, so so I'll fit in.
• 13:14
  So they won't they won't make fun of me or they won't call me a nerd. And so I'll downplay my scores. I'll downplay my results. I'll downplay my grade, my performance, just because I don't want to. I don't want to be excluded or make fun of me. Right. Yeah. So this is real. So whether the fear of failure or the fear of success, if that's something that you know, resonates with you, we'll spend a couple minutes here just what's happening just inside the brain, the body that's driving some of this.
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  And then, we'll shift to, you know, what are the common coping mechanisms? Like how does this actually kind of present itself? Yeah.
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  So just first and foremost is what's happening in the brain and body. A couple basic things here. And I alluded to this earlier, but,
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  our brain is wired, very simply, first and foremost for survival.
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  Right? So, again, we interpret threat, that just activates our stress response, the amygdala. You know, all of that just kind of kicks into overdrive. The sympathetic nervous system sort of gets all out of whack.
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  So just starting there, like within the brain that's happening.
• 14:24
  If you think about how elevated cortisol, which is the stress hormone, you know, that can lead to avoidance behaviors, burnout over time, those are a couple of things.
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  And burnout is becoming an epidemic in in sports, in business and life in medicine. There's huge factors of burnout. And so you think about the threats, this fear of failure, this fear, even success is elevated cortisol levels. That amygdala is activated. That sympathetic nervous system is activated with our autonomic nervous system. We sometimes aren't even aware of it.
• 14:57
  And and we're constantly triggered. And so then with that kind of that perceived threat, then what are what are my thought patterns about myself, about my performance, about other people? And then what you create is this self-limiting belief, whether it's driven by fear of success or fear of failure, about yourself and one of the things we know to be true, the story you continue to tell yourself about your life becomes your life.
• 15:24
  And and that's driven by fear. So we can see someone's cognitive distortion start taking root with the belief they develop about themselves or about their performance, or about how they compare themselves to other people. Yeah. I mean, think about, it's easy to talk about this in sports, but think about just
• 15:43
  the kind of focus that is required, to perform at the highest level of sport.
• 15:49
  Let's just say doesn't have to be the highest level of sport. It can be, you know, a high school, you know, baseball game. It doesn't matter. But the point is to perform at a high level. It just requires sort of purely focused, fully present, you know, immersed, engaged, ideally sort of that flow state where we're just fully, into playing and not overthinking.
• 16:14
  Right? There's not a ton of conscious thought going on. So think about now the extra load that a divided focus from fear now causes, right? So immediately it's like, okay, yeah, now I'm supposed to be performing. But in the back of my mind there's this sort of metacognition, almost of like the implications of whatever it is I'm about to do.
• 16:34
  And so if I'm, you know, on the pitcher's mound and I'm now saying like, well, if if I walk this person, you know, I'm going to walk in a run and we lose the game. Yeah, right. Do you think that's going to help you perform better or worse? You know what I mean. And that's kind of what we're getting at or even, hey, the bases are loaded.
• 16:53
  If I strike this guy out, that means we win. And what does that mean for me? And in both of those situations, I've shifted my focus to the outcome. Correct. And anytime we do that, I'm just increasing that stress response. I'm increasing that cortisol. I'm increasing, that anxiety and decreasing my confidence in taking me away. What from the present moment, which is where performance happens.
• 17:18
  Yeah. So let's shift and talk about some of the common coping stuff. We'll start just motivation. So contrasting the fear of failure, there's an avoidance motivation. So we hit that earlier. But essentially instead of, you know, hey, I'm playing to win. The motivation is now just don't lose. Yes. Right. And I was actually speaking to a, to a company here a couple of weeks ago in town.
• 17:41
  And, and the question at the end, they said, do you think, you know, fear of failure can can drive success? And I think, at a little stage, just go back to that stress performance curve that Eureka starts and, a little bit of, hey, I don't want to fail. I don't want to make a mistake. I don't want to not show up the right way.
• 18:00
  Creative. Enough of a stress response to activate the brain, to engage the brain. So sometimes that fear of failure. If I can overcome the procrastination, the tendency to avoid it gives me a little bit energy to get going. But sustaining success over time can not be driven by failure, and we constantly tell ourselves back to how we cope.
• 18:21
  Whatever world you're in, don't make a mistake. Don't get mad. Don't screw up. No, don't, don't strike out, whatever that language may be. And we constantly paint that picture of negativity. And unfortunately, our brain seeks to develop that picture. Yeah. And then you contrast that the fear of success. There's no there's not necessarily an avoidance there, but it's more of an ambivalence.
• 18:42
  Yes. That's a language even like a self-sabotaging, almost like, I just don't care. Yeah, right. It's very laissez faire, just kind of going through the motions. Yeah. And again, I think that's good language. Really good. So now again, how how that's just impacting my motivation. Some of the other, you know, sort of common coping strategies here.
• 19:02
  And we can kind of go back and forth. Where do you want to start? Well, I think to me, procrastination is a sign of perfectionism that we talked about, that sometimes be driven by this fear of failure, fear of success. And so we avoid doing the hard work. We avoid putting in the extra effort. You know, I laugh back about me working out, my fear of success.
• 19:23
  I remember thinking career basketball was probably one of my favorite sports, maybe my best sport. And they kept trying to get me to work out, and I was like, well, if I work out, I get big and strong, like Cary. It is going to affect my shot. And so I've never thought about that as a fear of success until today as we're doing the podcast.
• 19:42
  And so I avoided going to the weight room of like, what is somebody my size need more than anything else? They need more strength. And so you kind of self-sabotage and you and you talk yourself into something. And if you tell yourself something long enough, you'll believe it. So I believe if I worked out really hard, it was going to affect my shot in basketball.
• 20:02
  And I was become really stiff and not flexible, which I'm not flexible anyway. But I think that's a very good example of the procrastinate and the avoidance of doing the thing that's really going to move the needle forward. Yeah, yeah, I think self handicapping can show up in a lot of ways. And you mentioned some there. But if you think about I think some people it was interesting and doing some research, one of the the fear of success, one of the things that people will do and this sounds counterintuitive, but they just say yes to everything.
• 20:35
  Yeah, it's almost like they just sort of bury themselves in work so much that they can't take on, the kind of responsibilities that probably will move the needle and drive success. Yes. So they just it's almost like they just purposefully, engage in activity to avoid achievement. Yeah.
• 20:54
  One of the other common ones, avoiding leadership roles or taking on additional responsibilities because, again, sort of the threat that comes with, well, now, if I'm expected to have more responsibility or to to lead, people were like, they don't want that burden.
• 21:09
  And so they just avoid it. Yeah. Goodbye to an imposter syndrome. That imposter anxiety is like, hey, I don't want this extra burden. I don't want this extra pressure. I just want to do this. Yeah. And I want my life to be easy, and I don't I don't want to stress myself out. Yeah. I think the fear of failure is where you're going to find, like, overtraining or over preparing.
• 21:26
  Yes. Right. So you're trying to overcompensate, some type of that, you know, your perceived maybe inadequacy. So that's where you get those perfectionistic tendencies almost of of doing, like, you're just overthinking it. You're overdoing everything because you believe that it has to be perfect in order to get the result or outcome that you want. Yeah. Or else it will fail.
• 21:47
  A really good example, Scottie Scheffler, what's the biggest knock on him in the last couple of years is inspiring. And as he rolled the ball really well at the PGA, I think it was he talked about in the past couple of years. He had spent so much time, so much effort. He had tried so hard to control that, that that he got farther away.
• 22:07
  And it was that perfectionist tendency. He just had to kind of let go of that expectation, let go of that perfectionism, and just kind of allow himself to get in that present moment.
• 22:15
  yeah, I think there are others, and I'll just mention these quickly and then we'll push to our next section here. But,
• 22:20
  I think even maybe in sort of like the goal setting process, you're going to have people who, especially for AI, probably both, to be honest, failure or success is they want to set a low bar.
• 22:31
  Yeah, right. If I'm afraid to fail, will setting a low bar feels comfortable? If I'm afraid of success and go into high, then setting the lower bar certainly helps me feel like I'm not, out kicking my coverage. So, yeah, just protect myself. Yeah. And I think we, you know, you talked about that prediction methods, but I just don't want to push myself on.
• 22:51
  I think it also lets me play a little bit of an excuse game in my mind. Well, if I don't work really hard, if I had done this, if I had done that, then that I, you know, it kind of tries to protect our identity a little bit, that we make these excuses because we didn't work hard enough.
• 23:07
  Yeah. And then I think, you know, maybe the extreme is you get some self-destructive behaviors so completely neglecting health and wellness, just not taking care of myself. Maybe this is where you get into some substance abuse and act type of thing. Ultimately it's like these are just these are just ways that that fear sort of manifests itself.
• 23:29
  Yes.
• 23:29
  And I just end up sabotaging what I'm doing, whether it's conscious or not. I think you can probably imagine some extreme examples of that. Maybe that's really likely in the corporate space. I think that's where you're likely to see some of this kind of stuff in the world that we live in.
• 23:44
  Like coaches.
• 23:45
  Yes. Right. Coaches who maybe have a fear, this is when they, they probably head down a rabbit hole of getting into some, you know, behaviors that aren't great, that type of thing. Well, you can see some of these high performers across sports, across every coach. They they turn to alcohol, they turn to medication, they they turn to marijuana.
• 24:06
  Because what have we talked about? I'm trying to escape that pressure, that fear, that anxiety, that elevated cortisol. And and I use drugs and other substances to or other addictions to cope and help me escape that pressure.
• 24:20
  right. All right. Let's talk about intervention. So this is now, you know, sort of the work that that we do here.
• 24:27
  How do we go about people who, are either struggling with fear of failure. However, if they're struggling with the fear of success, like, what does it look like? What are we trying to address? Or how are we going about this work? So where do you wanna start? Well, I love start with a cognitive restructuring. I think, you know what?
• 24:43
  That's so near and dear to me, being a cognitive psychologist. And so I think, first of all, we do this a lot. I mean, one of the very first questions we start asking people is, how do you define success and how do you define failure? And if we can move beyond those traditional definitions, like we can move beyond success, is achieving a goal and that failure is not achieving it, then we help reframe the conversation around success and failure that we can we can tie it to a process.
• 25:10
  We can measure our effort instead of the outcome. And the outcome kind of becomes a byproduct or an indicator of our processes of our inputs. And so if we can reframe them and re think success and failure, it then gives us the chance to change our language, to change the way we think about ourselves and about our work and about, the games that we're playing.
• 25:34
  yeah. Well said. Again, I think that's pretty core to to what we do. And, and a lot of people who are doing work in our space and just trying to help you, shift your mindset around, you know, what is success and failure even mean?
• 25:47
  The one that I've actually use, specifically and why I wanted to touch on this, I remember working with a, a client years ago, an athlete who this was like the first time I had come across working with somebody with the fear of success.
• 26:01
  And it was it was fascinating. And so what I try to do, going back to sort of a classic theory in psychology, self-determination theory, basically what this theory says is, human beings have three primary psychological needs competence, autonomy. So freedom of choice and then relatedness. And so, the competence and autonomy, especially the competence. Yeah. So you can see how that's sort of threatened, especially with the fear of failure.
• 26:26
  Autonomy, like the freedom of choice or input to feel like I have some agency in, in my life or in what I'm doing. And then lastly is relatedness and feeling sort of connected to other people in the process, or feeling connected to something larger than yourself in the more I, I knew that got to know this individual.
• 26:42
  It felt like she was very that piece was really important to her. Yes. And so within her fear of success, I tried to tap back into, hey, what about what about doing this not just for you, but for your teammates? Like, that's something that I knew was important to her. So shifting her focus away from what success means, all these certain things about me.
• 27:05
  Yeah. To. Well, think about how it helps and the joy that it's going to bring to your teammates and all the people who support you and that type of thing. And that was that was a really important shift for her to make, you know, inside her mind. Because just knowing like that was a value that, that she had.
• 27:23
  And, you know, the people around her were important to her. So it was shifting it from almost this magnifying glass on her to like, hey, let's just focus on if you play at your best, the impact that that's going to have on all these other people. And, you know, that was helpful. So, you know, the research in terms of just trauma really supports that.
• 27:42
  The research kind of suggest in order to get over a traumatic event. And in whatever form of life, you got to be good at something. You got to have some sense of mastery, some sense of agency. I like that language. And and you got to have a good team around you. You got to be a part of something bigger than yourself.
• 27:58
  And so it really supports how do we deal with that elevated stress over time. We got to stay connected.
• 28:04
  All right. Any final thoughts here or any other interventions you want to hit on before we wrap up? Well, I think part of this is, you know, language. Hopefully people have heard me say a long time is giving yourself permission to be human.
• 28:15
  You know, our brains were created to protect us from threat. And whether that's a threat of failure or threat of success, understanding the physiological and emotional and mental response is to stress. And an example I use all the time is Steph Curry says you get nervous before every game and understand that that's part of the process. If you're trying to do something difficult and accepting some of that anxiety, accepting some of that stress, giving yourself permission to be human.
• 28:41
  But being human means we get to push the limits of what we think is possible. And it's really difficult sometimes to do it by yourself. Yeah, yeah. Well said. There's probably plenty of meat on the bone here that we could dive into, but hopefully this has provided our listeners, just a little bit of insight. Again, I use the word maybe helps you feel a little bit seen or validated some of what you felt over the course of your career, and maybe even giving you some things to think about in terms of, you know, how does this show up for me if I'm honest.
• 29:10
  Right. The fear of failure or the fear of success, any of the behaviors or the coping strategies that we mentioned, maybe, you know, that's a tough pill to swallow to acknowledge, you know, hey, unfortunately, I've been down that road. But even just hearing just a couple of reminders there from cognitive restructuring, self-determination theory, you know, sort of identity, any of those things, it is helpful for you.
• 29:36
  So, again, hopefully, you guys got something out of the episode, like I mentioned from the start, I feel like this is probably something that everybody can relate to in some capacity. So,
• 29:48
  we look forward to hearing from you guys. If you have any feedback or questions, follow ups, we can take a deeper dive into.
• 29:54
  By all means, send those our way, as always. You can check out Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Like us, write us reviews. So we can keep getting better for you. And, we'll see you next time on the Growth Project.