Latest / Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe / What are JWST's little red dots?

Transcript

What are JWST's little red dots? · Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: The best moments in science are the surprises. The reason
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: we do experiments is because we want our intuition, our
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: expectation to be confronted by reality. That's why we build
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: particle colliders and telescopes to force the universe to reveal
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: its secrets to us. And just about every time we
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: commission a new telescope, every time we look out into
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: the universe with new kinds of eyeballs, we see something new,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: something surprising, something that confounds our expectations and clashes with
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: our understanding. Those are the best moments because they herald
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: some new idea, some new revelation, some new understanding of
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: how the universe works, something potentially groundbreaking about our cosmos.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: So when we launched the James Webs based Telescope, I
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: was very excited for what it might reveal, and we
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: have not been disappointed. Today we'll dig into one of
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: the first, grandest and long standingist mysteries revealed by the
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: James Webbs based Telescope. Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's extraordinarily
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Surprising Universe.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Hello. I am Kelly Waidersmith.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: I study parasites and space, and I have two telescopes.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: One of which I cannot figure out how to use,
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: and one of which I can and I love it.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: And what kind of things can you see through your telescope?
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: The moon and big stuff.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Through your neighbor's windows.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, you can't see any of my
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: neighbor's windows from where I live.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Oh right, I'm not creepy.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: I guess in Virginia people respect their privacy. That's good
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: to hear. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist from California,
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: and I study particles and aliens, and I own zero telescopes.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: You own zero telescope? Well, I guess you know.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: In California it can be hard to get away from
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: the light pollution. But there's some parts of California where
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: you can get away from the light pollution. Probably it's
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: easy for me here in Virginia.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: We have different kind of stars here in California, just
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: glittering human beings.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I know, but lots of plastic surgery and stuff.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: It takes a lot of money to get that glitter.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: California glamb does have its downsides.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't want to be so negative about California.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: But but my question for you is today we're talking
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: about an amazing new ish telescope that we have. Out
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: of the amazing telescopes that have been proposed, if you
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: could make any of them appear, which one would you
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: like to have exist?
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Ooh, great question. Well, first of all, we should build
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: all of them. We should build a thousand space telescopes.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: I can't believe that we have the technology, we have
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: the money, we have people eager, you know, chomping at
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: the bit to build these things, to run them, for
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: us to send us incredible pictures from around the universe.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: We're just deciding not to. We're spending it on other
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: stuff instead. To me, that's insane. But anyway, if I
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: could only build one of them, I think I would
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: build the HabEx. This is the Habitable Exoplanet Observatory, and
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: it's designed to directly image planetary systems around Sun like stars.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: And you know, I want to see those aliens. And
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: to me, it's incredible that we can get like pictures
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: of planets around other stars. Not artists conceptions, right, not imaginations,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: actual photographs of planets around other stars. Oh my gosh,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: I can't wait. Build the thing now today, launchit yesterday.
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: Could you look at alien windows, because clearly that's what
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: you want to do.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, I do want to look at alien windows, and frankly,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: if I could, I would, wouldn't you? I don't know.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: I don't think that would be a good start to
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: your alien relationship to be peeping through their windows.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Hey, you don't know what it means in alien cultures.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Maybe that's very respectful and con through somebody's windows, Yes, exactly.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: Yes, this is how you show you're interested in someone.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Don't project your Virginia foibles on aliens.
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: We don't know, all right, Hey, dKu listeners, don't show
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: you're interested in someone by looking through their windows. Just
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: for young listeners, that's not acceptable.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Solid advice when applied to humans. Yes, I agree, yes,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: but no, haex can't see through alien windows. This will
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: limit the diffraction limits unless we have really big lenses
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: like the size of the sun. Then we can't image
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: details on exoplanets. But you know, it can characterize their atmosphere,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: it can understand how much ocean there is, how much
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: land there is. It's going to look at the spectrum
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: of those planets and really understand habitability, which I think
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: would be super fascinating.
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that would be awesome like to have that telescope too,
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: but you know, we don't want to.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: Sit here being too bummed about the telescopes we don't have.
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: While we did somewhat recently get this amazing telescope, the
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: James Web Space Telescope, And yes it was over budget
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: and behind schedule, but we have it and now it's
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: giving us amazing data.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. It's incredible what we build as humans.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: You know, when I see something like the Golden gate
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Bridge or the Chrysler building or something, I'm just floored
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: at the complexity in the scale of projects that humans
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: can pull off, like over budget, behind schedule, whatever the
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: thing is in space taking pictures of the universe. It's incredible, right,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: like mind blowing that we pulled it off. And the
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: James Web is working really, really well. It's sending us
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: beautiful images of the universe. And I am just always
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: excited about anytime we build new technological eyeballs to expand
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: our ability to look at the universe, because the universe
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: is out there doing and it's thing and screaming information
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: at us. So many photons are coming towards the planet
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: all the time with gobs and gobs of information about
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: the early universe, the late universe, what's happening here, what's
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: happening over there? Most of it is just being ignored.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Imagine the universe was emailing you answers to physics problems
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: and you were just like deleting it. We're just like
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: not reading your email. That's basically what we're doing. We
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: captured the tiniest of tiny fractions of photons that come
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: to Earth filled with rich information about the deepest secrets
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: in the universe. And you know, most of them just
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: like splash on a concrete or get ignored. So that's
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: a bummer. And I'm excited about every time we capture them,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: and history tells us that every time we do, we
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: learn something mind blowing, something incredible about the universe.
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: Daniel, what if there are aliens trying to write you
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: letters and we're missing them. They're trying to say hello
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: to you in particular.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: Oh man, make it personal, Okay.
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: Sorry, they're like, Daniel, we have answer all of your questions.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: If you're stressing me out.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right, let's move on. Let's move on.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Alien listeners, however, please do write to us questions at
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: Daniel and Kelly dot Org. Send us your questions, send
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: us your answers, Please email us.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: Daniel is listening.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: I will right back to the alien he will. But
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: in the meantime, today we're discussing something that James webspased
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: telescope has already found, has already blown the minds of astronomers,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: has already led to years long debates and confusion about
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: what happened in the early universe.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: That's right, and it's something that we didn't expect we
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: were going to see.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: And it sounds like candy.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: Oh you say, it sounds like candy. But let's go
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: ahead and listen to what the extraordinaries had to say
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: when you ask them what are the little red dots?
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: Because candy is not what they had on their minds.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: James web telescope is infrared, so maybe the does, of course,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: something to do with warmer areas in space. I think
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: there were small galaxies or nebulas that were forming stars
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: way earlier than expected after the Big Bang.
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: Maybe they are far far away stars getting further away
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: faster and faster.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Ever, or maybe it's just measles.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: Dombi black cloles.
• 8:20
  Speaker 5: They're probably not red dwarves because they're too small, So
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: maybe something bigger than that could be hawking radiation.
• 8:32
  Speaker 6: Maybe those little red dots are like the dots at
• 8:37
  Speaker 6: the top of some web pages that open up a
• 8:41
  Speaker 6: menu of options. But this time it's about the origin
• 8:46
  Speaker 6: of the universe.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: I'm ashamed to say that I saw something about little
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: red dots on Instagram, but identimy the description.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Galactic anti vexers and their space measles.
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: Could they be read stars objects in the very early
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: stage in the formation of the universe that are like
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: proto galaxies or something, But I don't think we're sure.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Is it some type of lensing effect.
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: Well, if it's red and little, it's probably red shifted
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: and a long long way away.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: And since it's James the Web, I'm guessing something record breaking.
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: Evidence of large galaxies much earlier than our current theories allow,
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: or the teenage universe just had really bad skin the
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: most distant galaxies discovered so far.
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: Well, now, the Extraordinaries were speaking right to Kelly's heart
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: because they weren't thinking about candies.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: They were thinking about infections.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: Measls came up more than once, and you know, maybe
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: we should have an episode on beasles too, we'll see.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: But yes, so how close were these answers?
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: There's some good answers in here. You know, there's stuff
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: in here about the early universe, things that are red shifted.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: That's pretty solid. And clearly some people had heard about
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: this mystery.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm gonna be honest, I have.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: I've been sort of like living in a cave with
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: my fingers in my ears, not paying attention to the news.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: I had not.
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: Heard about the little red dots, and so I'm excited
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: to have you tell me about them today.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. All right, Well, let's start out by reminding ourselves
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: what is the James Webspace Telescope and what can it see?
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Because that's going to turn out to be really important
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: to understand how it sees the universe, what it can see,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: what it cannot see.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: All right, So when do we get this new tool?
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so December twenty twenty one, this thing launched on
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: a rocket out into space and James Webspace Telescope very powerful,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: very awesome. But it's not like a descendant of Hubble
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: or replacement for Hubble. It's more like a compliment to Hubble.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Hubble is an optical telescope, meaning that it mostly is
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: good at seeing light in the visible spectrum. Remember, light
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: is just electromagnetic radiation. It comes in all sorts of frequencies,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: from infrared and radio waves with very low frequencies long
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: wavelengths up to the visible spectrum we are used to
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: seeking light, and then up beyond it into the ultraviolet,
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: the X rays, the gamma rays, where you have very
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: high energy, very short wavelength, very high frequency. There's a
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: huge spectrum of radiation and different parts of the universe.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Different stuff in the universe at different temperatures, and different
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: chemical compositions absorbs or emit at different frequencies. So if
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: we want to look at the universe, we should try
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: to look at it lots of different wavelengths. So Hubble
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: is really really good at seeing in the visible James
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: web Space telescope is designed to see in the long
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: wavelengths in the infrared, well below what the human eye
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: can see.
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: Okay, So Hubble can see the stuff that we could see,
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: but obviously can see stuff way farther out and way
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: better than we can with our naked eyes. Yes, and
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: James Webspace Telescope is seeing stuff that our eyes couldn't
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: detect at all.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: That's right. And remember that telescopes are really good because
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: their lenses are big, and so they gather more light
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: than your eyeball. Like if you put the hubbles place
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: versus your eyeball, the hubble can see more distant things
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: because it's gathering more photons. Imagine some super duper far
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: away galaxy. It's shooting out photons in all directions. If
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: you're ten billion light years from that galaxy, then those
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: photons get spread across a sphere whose radius is ten
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: billion light years. Imagine the size of that sphere. All
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: the photons get spread across that sphere. The further away
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: you are, the larger that sphere is. That's why the
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: intensity of sources goes like one over the distance squared
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: because the area that spheres four pi are squared. Right.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: The three dimensional nature of our universe is the reason
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: for the inverse square law, which I always thought was
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: super cool connection to geometry. Anyway, the bigger your lens,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: the bigger your eye, the bigger your telescope, the more
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: of those photons you're going to capture, so you're better
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: at seeing more distant things. Also, as we talked about recently.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: There's the diffraction limit that tells you can you resolve
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: whether this photon came at this angle or a slightly
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: different angle, And that depends in the wavelength and also
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: on the size of the lens crucially, so bigger lens
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: being seed more distant things and get better resolution on them.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Things go from blurry to crisp. So that's why we
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: build these things to have as big mirror as possible.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Hubble is two point four meters across the light gathering thing,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: James Webb six point five six point five meters across.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: It's huge. Remember those iconic hexagonal mirrors that I think
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: even appear in the logo for James web that's the
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: reflecting surface and that's why it's so big.
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: That's over twenty one freedom units over twenty one feet.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: That's huge.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: That's like three of my dad standing on top of
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: each other. That is a big lens.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: It is. It's a big mirror.
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: Ye.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: And if you remember, it's gold, and the reason it's
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: gold is because James Webb is looking for red photons,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: long wavelength photons in the infrared. Gold is really really
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: good at reflecting in the infrared. So the thing is
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: out there, it's looking for red photons. It's made of gold.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: And the reason we're looking for red photons is that
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: things that are really really far away are moving away
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: from us very quickly, and that means that their light
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: is red shifted. So we talk about red shift as
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: a measure of velocity. Because there's a close connection between
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: velocity and distance, you can also use red shift as
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: a proxy for distance. So astronomers often saying something at
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: red shift three point four or something at red shift
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: seven point nine, what they mean is a distance, right,
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: they're using us as a way to talking about distance.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: And if you're interested in the early universe, and you're
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: interested in stuff that's really really old, really far away,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: that stuff's all going to be super red shifted. Even
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: if it emitted originally in the visible you had a
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: star and emitted visible light. Now it's moving really really
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: far away, that light is super red shifted, and so
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: we need an infrared telescope in order to see it.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: So James Webb's designed to see deep into the universe
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: the oldest, reddest light, stuff that happened just after the
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Big Bang.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: And by putting it out in space, it doesn't get
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: distracted by all of the light that we have here
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: on Earth, right, is that why we put it in space.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: We put it in space for a few reasons. One
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: is you have light pollution here on Earth. The other
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: is the atmosphere. Like you don't want to be looking
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: through an atmosphere. Atmosphere distorts images because the atmosphere has
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: density fluctuations as light passes through the atmosphere, if a
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: little pocket of air is slightly more dense than another one,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: it's going to deflect the light acts like a lens.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: So you have layers and layers of that happening. You
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: get all these atmospheric distortions and so ground bates telescopes.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: It's easy to build them like fifty meters across or
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: easier at least than space stuff because you don't have
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: to launch them, right, But they suffer from atmospheric distortions.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: They can compensate for that using this awesome laser technique
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: where they shoot a laser up into the sky so
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: they can measure the distortion and then they can compensate
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: for it in real time. They have these actuators then
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: bend the mirror on the telescope in real time like
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: super fast and many times a second to compensate for it.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: It's like science fiction. It's incredible what these nerds have
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: come up with.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: I love nerds.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: The other reason it's out in space is that to
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: see infrared, you need to be very, very cold. Remember
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: that there's a connection between color and temperature. It's the
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: black body radiation connection. Things that are colder tend to
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: radiate longer wavelengths. So the Sun radiates in the visible
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: spectrum because of its atmospheric temperature fifty five hundred kelvin,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: and so it radiates in the visible If things cool
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: down like the Earth, tends to radiate in the infrared.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Anything that's around our temperature is going to radiate in
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: the infrared. So if you're a telescope that's gathering infrared light,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: you don't want to be near sources of infrared light
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: like the Earth, and you don't want to be yourself
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: a source of for red light, right, you don't want
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: to make a telescope out of glowing things, for example,
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: And so they send it out in space so it
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: can be far from the Earth, so that it can
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: stay cold and it can stay dark. The sunshade and
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: it's cool to negative two thirty three C.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: WHOA, what is that in freedom units?
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Super cold? It's super cold in freedom.
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: Units, that's negative three hundred and eighty seven Fahrenheits.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: And so it's not out in space like orbiting the Earth.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: They wanted to keep it even further from the Earth.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: It's at L two, this lagrange point where you can
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: be stable relative to the Earth and the Sun. That
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: means that the Earth is constantly between James Webb and
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: the Sun. So it's like further from the Sun, but
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: it can still be stable relative to the Earth and
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: the Sun. And it's not actually at L two. It's
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: orbiting L two because you could have multiple things at
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: L two. You don't want them crashing into each other.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Does it take any energy to make it orbit L
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: two or it just does that on its own and
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: keeps going.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: It just does that on its own. It's a stable
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: location and it's very cool. That is cool. And you
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: can even turn the tull scope without using any like
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: reaction mass because it has these reaction wheels. The way
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: that works is that the telescope turns one way and
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: the reaction wheel turns the other way. Then there's no
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: net angular momentum on the telescope, and so you can
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: turn it without like firing a thruster. It does also
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: have thrusters for like corrections or whatever, but you want
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: to be very very sparing on how you use those
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: because you can't refuel, right, anything that's using up a
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: resource that can't be replenished is going to be limited time.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: So they use the reaction wheels to point it and
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: they use the thrusters only when needed.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: Okay, so this sounds absolutely massive. So I'm guessing that
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: we couldn't build it full size completely like open and
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: ship it up like that. So how did we get
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: this giant thing to space and like open it up?
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that part is incredible, As you say, you can't
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: just build the thing in space where we can't do
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: that yet, and you can't build it just like completely
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: on the ground in perfect conditions and then ship it
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: up because there's a limit on the size of things
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: you can launch, right, which is the size of the rocket.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: So they designed it to fold up so it could
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: go inside this rocket and then go out into space,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: get to the right location and unfold. And that was
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: a very nerve wracking moment, right, when it launched and
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: it didn't blow up, yea. And then it got to
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: its location and it unfolded correctly. Really amazing a piece
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: of engineering. And you know, there's no way to recover
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: this thing or to fix it.
• 19:22
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Remember it's at L two, which is not close to Earth.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: It's much further than the Moon, for example, and like
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: no astronaut has ever gone much further than the Moon.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: And so we're not like sending somebody to repair it
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: like we did with Hubble. This thing is just out
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: there and inaccessible.
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: I imagine that must have been absolutely petrifying, because we
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: did have to fix Hubble right when it went out there.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: There was a problem with the lens, and I remember
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: reading Mike mass Amino's biography and he was talking about
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: going out there to fix it. And so I can
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: imagine the first images that we looked at from the
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: James web Space telescope.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: That must have been a pretty tense moment, Like, but
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: there's no going back.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: I know, you spent your whole career eying this thing,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: and one thing goes wrong, it can all just be
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: for nought, right yea. And then you know, also you're
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: endangering future missions right, if you wasghe ten billion dollars, like,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: it makes it pretty hard to ask for another's based telescope. Yeah,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: so there's a lot on the line. But these folks
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: dreamed big and they delivered. It's amazing. It's been working
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: really well so far. It's got enough fuel for like
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: twenty years. They planned for like eleven years. But because
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: they launched it so accurately and they didn't have to
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: have like a lot of course corrections along the way,
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: they think that it's going to have enough for twenty
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: years of like small corrections.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Way to go, NASA exactly.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: And so but we still have to spend like the
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: first few months of James webs based telescopes lifetime, like
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: aligning the mirrors, getting everything perfectly crisp right, because you know,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: the thing unfolds and then you have to like tweak
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: it and adjust for it and the hardware things there
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: and software things there. But now we have it, and
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: it's out there and it's gathering infrared light about the
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: early universe and about exoplanets because red light comes not
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: just from bright stuff which is now red shifted, it
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: also comes from things that just originally emit in the infrared,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: like planets right the Earth emits in the infrared, You
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: emit in the infrared. Your neighbors are emitting in the
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: infrared out their bathroom windows, and so James web Space
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Telescope is good at seeing things in the infrared, which
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: means it's good for seeing like planetary formation and protoplanetary
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: discs and exoplanets, not in the visible but in the infrared.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: All right, everyone, we're going to take a break and
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna have a little chat with Daniel about why
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: all of these references to looking into people's windows are
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: really creepy. And I'm gonna, you know, try to make
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: sure that Daniel doesn't dwell too hard thinking about all
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: the messages he might have missed while the James web
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: Space Telescope was getting calibrated early on. And when we
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: come back, we're going to talk about what we expected
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: to see when the James web Space Telescope got turned on.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: Welcome back to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe. I promise
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: Daniel's going to be less creepy in this next segment,
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: or at least I've done what I can to try
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: to make that happen.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Kelly What if the aliens are expecting us to communicate
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: with them via our bathroom windows. What if they've trained
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: their telescope on our bathroom windows and they're like, I
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: don't see anything. These guys are just not interested in conversation.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Then we just got to let them go, Daniel. We
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: got to take that chance, let them know.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: No. Unacceptable, unacceptable.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Oh Daniel, you live in this world, play by this
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: world's rules.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, that's not the.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Recipe for meeting aliens, Kelly. You got to think outside
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: the box and outside the window.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: It's the recipe for staying out of jail. Daniel. It's
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: a good recipe. It's a good recipe.
• 22:58
  Speaker 6: You know.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: If I'm willing to vaporize the planet to meet aliens,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: I'm willing to risk prison.
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: I think maybe we should just put you in prison. Actually,
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: so it would all be safer if you were there,
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: But then we wouldn't get to enjoy your wonderful explanations.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: So I wonder if you could do a podcast from prison.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Probably anyway, let's hope that never happens.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: I get I'm torn, but all right, So what did
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: we expect to see from the James Web space telescope.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: So we were hoping to learn more about the early universe. Remember,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: James web is good at seeing the infrared. Stuff that's
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: really far away is red shifted. We're seeing that far
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: away stuff now because light has taken a long time
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: to get to us from it, which means we're seeing
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: really out of date information. But we're seeing from the
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: early universe. So our goal was to see more about
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: the early universe, and we have ideas about the early universe,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: but they were a little bit fuzzy. The basic picture
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: of the early universe that we have is we start
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: with some very hot, very dense, unexplained state. Remember the
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: big band does not include a singularity. It starts from
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: a hot, dense state filling the whole universe, but it
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: has tiny fluctuations in it. It's not perfectly smooth. So
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: where you have a fluctuation that gives you higher density,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: you can have a little bit more gravity and that
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: tends to pull stuff towards it and you get higher
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: density and higher density. So there's a runaway effect. If
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: the universe started out perfectly smooth, you would get no structure.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: But if there's little fluctuations and a lot of time
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: gravity will work to build those structures. So you start
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: from a primordial plasma, very hot and dense, those fluctuations
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: probably come from quantum mechanics. Gravity gradually builds up structure.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: And most of the universe is dark matter, right, Most
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: of the matter in the universe is dark matter, not
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: visible matter, not hydrogen, not helium, but dark matter. And
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: so it's really the dynamics of that dark matter that
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: shape the structure of the universe. People often write to
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: me about dark matter and they say, oh, it's just
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: to fill in the gap of galaxy rotation curves. But
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: it's so much more. We need dark matter at every
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: stage of the universe. Without dark matter in your model,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: you cannot explain how structure formed in the universe. There
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: isn't enough time in the universe to pull together gas
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: to make stars and galaxies in fourteen billion years without
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: the gravity of dark matter. So you need dark matter
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: everywhere in the universe. It's definitely a thing, folks. It's
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: not just a fudge factor. I'm overresponding to a particular
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: email I got this morning for a.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: Listeners that sounds surprisingly specific, But this is not the
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: kind of thing that emits in the infrared right, So
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: James web Space telescope would not be seeing dark matter, right.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: That's right. Dark matter, we think, doesn't emit at all,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: but it shapes the structure that we do see, right,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: And so what you end up with is over densities
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: of darkmounter of these gravitational wells that pull in gas.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: So you have huge clouds of gas where you have
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: dark matter. So the gas tells you where the dark
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: matter is, right, It's like a tracer. And then that
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: gas collapses also for the same reason that you have
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: little pockets of over density, and so you get collapse
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: into stars, and the first set of stars then come
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: together to form galaxies.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: The gas tells you where the dark matter is.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: I think I heard the rest of what you said,
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: but maybe I didn't make it past that part.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: And who's mine is stuck in the bathroom now, Kelly.
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: As long as no one's looking, I could keep it
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: to myself and that's fine.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: And so you know, that's the rough picture of the
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: very early universe, and from there you get stars and
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: galaxies dot. But there's a lot of details that we
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: didn't understand. For example, we didn't know for a long time.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Do you form big galaxies like the Milky Way, which
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: is huge, hundreds of billions of stars. Do you form
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: me that all at once, like a bunch of stars
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: come together to make a big galaxy. Is there like
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: a monolithic collapse where you have a huge cloud of
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: gas and they all form stars and boom you have
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: a galaxy? Or do small galaxies form and then merge? Right?
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: And so for a long time people thought the galaxies
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: formed big, right, big monolithic collapse happen, they have waves
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: of star formation. But the new idea from observations of
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: the early universe and from more distant galaxies is that
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: there's a merger cycle, right that you start with these
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: early stars, these population three stars terribly named Population three.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Oh you guys, I know, the first stars were really
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: really big, like one hundred to three hundred times the
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: mass of the Sun and so big that they burned
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: really hot and they were really short lived and then
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: they die, and see it another generation of stars and
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: those come together to form small mini galaxies, and then
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: galaxies merge to make big galaxies. So it's like a
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: hierarchical formation of the galaxies. This is sort of what
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: we expected. And so when we turned James Weball, and
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: we were expecting to see a bunch of little galaxies
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: before they emerged. You know, some are regular and some
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: of this and some that, but we're expecting to see
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: early galaxy formation.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: Okay, And given how good you guys are at naming things,
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: the galaxies, we're going to be like M one four
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: two nine, right, as opposed to like, you know, Lisa
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: Simpson or something amusing.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well, you know, it's a hard problem because
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: there are lots of galaxies. Like you cannot fathom how
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: many galaxies we're talking about. If you hold up your
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: finger at arms length and point it up at the sky,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: then like the part of the sky blocked by your
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: fingernail on your pinky contains about a million galaxies. Whoa
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: right there, pinky fingernail. Okay, there's a million in there.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: So there's so many galaxies, and the deeper you look
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: into the sky, the more you see. And the reason
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: we talk about galaxies is because that's what the universe
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: is made out of. That's basically the building block of
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: the universe is galaxies. And also we can't see individual
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: stars mostly like these galaxies are so far away that
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: you can just resolve them and you can see this
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: galaxy maybe a little bit about the shape, but you
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: can't like zoom in on an individual star. Remember, there's
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: still this diffraction limit. There's a pixelization even before we
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: digitize our data, right because the diffraction limit of optics,
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: because we're talking about waves and there's interference when things
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: come through an aperture. So there's a fundamental pixelization of
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: the data we can see, so we can't resolve finer details,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: which is why we study galaxies.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: And this was all true before the James Web Space Telescope,
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: or we're talking about the case. Now that we have
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: the James Web Space Telescope, we're still just looking at galaxies.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: We're still just looking at galaxies, and we were before
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: James Web. Like Hubble's Deep Field, for example, is just
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: like stare at into space and gather light for a
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: little while and see what comes out into the dark bits.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: And the answer is galaxies. So many galaxies. Oh my gosh, galaxies.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: It's just galaxies everywhere, which is amazing. And that's what
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: we understood before James Web turned on, and so we
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: expected to get more clarity on this picture. How are
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: these galaxies forming. What are the look like. We also
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: were wondering about the supermassive black holes. Remember that we
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: see black holes in the early universe, and we can
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: see them because they're really, really bright. We call them quasars.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: They emit really powerful streams of light out of the
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: center of the galaxies. And these quasars are really bright,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: which suggests the black holes are really big. And this
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: model we've talked about about gradually merging galaxies and then
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: their black holes also merge, can't account for the black
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: holes that we already saw before James Web, Like we
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: saw these quasars, which means black holes that are really big,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: very early in the universe. This model of slowly building
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: galaxies cannot get you big enough black holes fast enough
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: to explain the supermassive black holes we saw before James Web.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: That's a long standing mystery, like what is the origin
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: of the supermassive black holes in the universe. So we
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: were hoping when we turned on James Web to see
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: some more clarity about this formation or the early universe,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: how these things are coming together, what's going on. And
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: you know, they expected to see relatively faint, irregular proto
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: galaxies and a small number of black holes forming over time,
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: and so you know, basically refine existing models. That's the
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: sort of naive expectation.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: Oh, you physicists with your cute little ideas about how
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: the world works.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: But you know, we also were hoping to be surprised.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: That's sort of like your best guess based on the data.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: But the reason we build these things is not to
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: refine our models. And like dot i's and cross t's,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: we build these things to blow our minds. We build
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: these things to explore the universe. Right. We build these
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: things because we don't want to rely on our intuition.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: We want to be confronted by reality. We want the
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: universe to give up the ghost and say, okay, here's
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: what's going on. Check out this crazy thing. You never
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: even imagined. You know, nobody imagined pulsars before we discovered them.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: There's so many times we have looked out into the
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: universe and seen something crazy that blew our minds and
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: forced us to reimagine how we see the universe. And
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: you know, so that's science at work. Science is not
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: like let's protect the dogma so I can keep getting
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: my grand funding. Science is like, let's discover something crazy
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: and new so I can get more grand funding.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: Right, No, you looked down into the universe and you
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: saw job security because there's something we hadn't even thought of. No,
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: I'm just kidding, and it blew your mind. I totally agree, exactly.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, So what did we see that was so surprising?
• 32:24
  Speaker 6: Then?
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: So we had this model, we thought we kind of
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: knew what we were going to see, but we were
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: hoping we'd also see something exciting.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: What was the exciting thing we saw?
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: So we saw little red dots And that's why we're
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: focusing on this for today's episode because these things were
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: weird and unexpected. So what are little red dots? Well,
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: they are literally if you look at the James webs
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: based telescope images, they are a little red and dotted, right,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: So they're bright, they're red, and there's a lot of them.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: So we've discovered a few hundred of them so far
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: because we only looked in a few places, but there's
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: a lot of them relative to the number of galaxies
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: we've seen, you know, so like a few percent of
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: the objects we've seen in the early universe are these
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: little red dots?
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Huh? And are they in galaxies. Are there between galaxies?
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Are they randomly distributed?
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: They are their own thing, right, and so people are wondering, like,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: are they a weird kind of galaxy? Are they an
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: early stage of galaxies? They were really strange, and nobody
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: expected to see these things, like maybe one or two
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: if a galaxy got really weird. But there's just too
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: many of these, and they formed really early in the universe.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: So we're talking about like six hundred million years after
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: that t equals zero moment when things were really hot
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: and really dense, and then they went away, so by
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: like a billion and a half years after the beginning
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: of the universe, no more little red dots. So these
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: things are strange because they're really compact, they're very bright
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: and very red, and also they have a really strange spectrum.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Remember that when you're looking at something from the early universe,
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: we can see it and even though we can't always
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: resolve spatial features, like we can't see is there a
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: bump on it, or like what color is that window,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: we can look at the intensity at different wavelengths, So
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: there's like this other dimension we can always do. We'd
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: like take the light and split it into prism and ask, oh,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: how much red is there, how much green is there,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: how much blue is there, how much of this frequency?
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: And usually we see like a peak somewhere based on
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: the temperature, you know, like if you're looking at the
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Earth from space, you would see a peak at a
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: frequency determined by a surface temperature. And when you look
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: at a star the same thing. You can tell the
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: temperature of distant stars by looking at their peak. Or
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: you see strong emission lines from some particular interaction, like
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: black holes that have really hot gas that emidst x rays,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: or you see dust that absorbs at a certain frequency.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: These guys have a really weird frequency that has a
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: V shape in it, so it's like this broad emission
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: at lower wavelengths and then a huge dip in the middle,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: and then broad emission and higher wavelengths. So it's weird
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: because it doesn't look like a young galaxy and also
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: doesn't look like a black hole. It looks sort of
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: like something new and weird, with maybe like a cloud
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: around it that's absorbing light at some frequency. So maybe
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: something like shrouded in dust that we don't understand. What
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: is it?
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: My guess is killing me?
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: Okay, so I mean, could it just be like all
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: the stuff sort of collecting and it's dusty and it's
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: just very early what's going on?
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: So we have a few theories.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: And we're going to go to a break and when
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: we come back, Daniel will tell us about them.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: All Right, that break was particularly painful.
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: Daniel, what do we think these little red dots are
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: that appear to maybe be dusty clouds that.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Emit at weird spectrum? Yeah, tell us what do we
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: think they could be?
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: So there's no theory that perfectly describes what we're seeing,
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: but there's a bunch of proto theories. And I love
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: that because what you're seeing again is science in action.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: You know, science is not done by developing perfect theories
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: or waiting to publish until your theory is perfectly formed
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: and describes the data. It's always work in progress. It's like,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: here's an idea, here's how well it works, here's the
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: pros and the cons right, and then there's an ongoing
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: discussion or argument about as these theories develop, which one
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: works best, and eventually one of them wins out. And
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: this is how science happens.
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: Right, No, seriously, friends, it's awesome that after an hour
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: you don't get an answer.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: But no, really, this is how science works.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so nobody knows the answer. One theory is
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: that these are young galaxies, right, and they're so unexpectedly
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: right because they're undergoing intense bursts of star formation. So
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: these are called starburst galaxies because remember we talked about
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: this giant cloud of gas and it's collapsing to form stars.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: If that happens all at the same time, for like
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: these mini galaxies instead of having a mega collapse to
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: the Milky Way, we start with many galaxies. But if
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: that's somehow coordinated across the galaxy, you have a bunch
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: of stars all born at the same time, then you're
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: gonna get really bright emissions. That's the idea. And this
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: is a nice idea because it doesn't require you to
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: invent some new thing in the universe. It's just like
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: a new arrangement of stuff we already knew. And it
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: tries to explain this v shape in the spectrum, this
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: dip in the middle of the spectrum by saying, well,
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: it's not actually a dip, there's nothing that's being absorbed there.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: It's just that the edges are really bright. So the
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: center looks like a dip. So instead of like subtracting
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: away the center of the spectrum, they're enhancing the sides
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: of the spectrum by saying that comes from starburst formation.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, so it's not that it's dusty.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just the messages getting thrown off because it's
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: so bright.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So it looks like the center is suppressed,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: but it's really that the edges are enhanced, and that's
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: why the center looks dimmer than the edges of the spectrum. Okay,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: so that's one idea. It's not a great theory because
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: we don't understand how you form these galaxies so quickly.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: They're really bright. The models of galaxy formation do not
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: predict this, so that you get these galaxies that are
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: so bright and so intense and having these starbursts all
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: at the same time, and the emission spectrum is predicted
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: by these theories don't describe this very easily. You don't
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: get this kind of spectrum, So it's not a great fit.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: It's like, let's take the current idea what we expected
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: to see and try to tweak the knobs on it
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: as much as we can to get it to describe it,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: and it's like you can kind of get there a
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: little bit, but it's really just not a good fit.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: And that's what's exciting, right. It's exciting because it suggests that, like, well,
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: we need new ideas.
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: But do we see other young galaxies anywhere? Are we
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: proposing that these red dots are a kind of young
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: galaxy or is this like we looked for young galaxies,
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: we don't see them anywhere, and we're like, well, maybe
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: this is what it is because we can't find them.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So that's the funny thing is that we do
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: see some of those proto galaxies, the ones that we expected, irregular,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: clumpy shapes, they're like actively forming stars, they're not super compact,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: they're normally bright. And we also, in addition, see these
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: little red dots, the very compact, very red, very bright
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: with a weird spectrum. So we don't just see what
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: we expected. We also see these weird guys that we
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: can't quite fit into the model.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Huh okay, all right, so then what else could they be.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot of excitement about black holes, right,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: Maybe these things are black holes forming early in the
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: universe and then with a lot of dust around them,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: so like dust obscured black holes, maybe at the centers
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: of very very young galaxies. Remember that there's a mystery
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: about where do the super massive black holes and the
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: universe come from? How did they get so big so fast?
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: So maybe we're seeing those black holes being born and
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: for some reason there's dust around them that's making the
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: dip in this spectrum, that's absorbing that light to suppress
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: the center of the spectrum. That's one idea.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: How good is that idea?
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: And every time you say super massive black hole, does
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: it also make you want to go to a muse concert.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: Don't you know?
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: So it really does have a rhythm to it, doesn't it?
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Super massive black hole? It's good because it explains why
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: these things are small, right, black holes are very very dense,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: and why these things are bright. Black holes have really
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: intense radiation because they heat up the stuff nearby. Remember
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: the black holes not directly glowing. The accretion disk around
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: them has a lot of friction and a lot of gravity,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: and that's the thing that gets really hot and glows.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: And so it explains that. It also can explain the
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: dip in the spectrum because you have a lot of
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: dust there that's obscuring that part of the spectrum. But
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: there's some problems with this theory. Like number one, black
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: holes tend to be really really hot and they tend
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: to glow in the X ray right, Like we see
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: black holes out there. We've discovered some just by their
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: X rayh ebisions. They're very bright in the X ray
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: because of this hot gas. We do not see a
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: lot of X rays from these little red dots, and
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: so that doesn't really fit with the black hole scenario.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: But there's a counter to that concern, which is James
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Web can see in the infrared, it's not great at
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: seeing the X rays. And a lot of these places
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: where we have imaged with the James Web and we've
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: seen these little red dots, we have not yet had
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: a chance to point X ray telescopes at these things. Right,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: So what you want is to see the sky in
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: multiple frequencies. You want all of your telescope pointed at
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: the same thing, so you see the infrared, you see
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: the optical, you see the X ray. That's really expensive.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Even just getting time on the James Web is a
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: big deal. Getting also the Hubble or also Chandra or
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: one of our X ray telescopes to look at this
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: thing very challenging, So definitely one thing to do is
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: follow up on these little red dots using X ray telescopes.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: But are the lerd's everywhere.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: The alerds are everywhere? Yeah, they're distributed, just like the
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: galaxies are.
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: Okay, but you just want to make sure that you're
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: looking at the exact same spot that the James Web
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: was so that you can say, Okay, we know that
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: James Web saw one here and okay, got it exactly.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Another issue is that these things are weirdly uniform,
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: like they all look about the same, they're all the
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: same brightness, et cetera. Whereas galaxies with super massive black
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: holes in them, with active galactic nuclei like emitting bright radiation,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: tend to be really variable, Like the fraction the galaxy's
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: mass that's contained in the black hole is usually really
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: really small, but there's a lot of variation there, and
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: we don't see that kind of variability among these little
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: red dots, which is like, that's kind of weird. It's
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: not a great fit for the black hole hypothesis. Also,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: these guys would be really really massive, like we're talking
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: about masses between ten million and a billion of our
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: Sun's masses very early in the universe, and it'd be
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: really cool to see that. But again, we can't explain
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: why that would happen. There's no way to explain how
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: you get a billion solar mass black hole this quickly
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: in the universe. It's like trying to grow a you know,
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: a skyscraper from a seed in like a couple of days.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: There's just no explanation for it, which doesn't mean it
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: can't exist. And that's exactly the kind of discovery everybody
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: would love to make, right but it makes you skeptical
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: because it would be a really big discovery. The other
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: issue is that this requires a lot of dust. You know,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: if you are going to quiet a very bright object
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: in one part of the spectrum, you need a lot
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: of dust to admit that. Remember, dust absorbs in certain
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: frequencies because of its size. Right, really long wavelength stuff
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: is going to go through the dust. Shorter wavelength things
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: are like about the wavelength of the dust will interact
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: with a dust and get absorbed. But if you do that,
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: the dust absorbs that energy, then it heats up and
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: you expect that dust to then glow in the infrared.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: So the hypothesis that like, it's a black hole which
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: is emitting a lot of radiation and it's being shrouded
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: by dust. Well, that dust should be heated up and
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: you should be able to see that dust glowing in
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: the infrared, and we don't. So you know, this is
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: the kind of game you play. You come up with
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: a hypothesis and then you make a prediction. If this
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: was true, we should see the dust glowing. Oops, we don't.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Uh oh, So that's like not a check mark for
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: that theory.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: So is now when we talk about this possibly being
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: a message from aliens.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: You know, I'd love for it to be a message
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: from aliens, but they're everywhere, right, It's not like here's
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: one system where something is going on. It's something very
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: early in the universe where it's hard to imagine you know,
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: intelligent technological life already forming just a few hundred million
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: years after the Big Bang. You know, Earth came fairly
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: late in the universe. We didn't form until you know,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: five billion years ago or so in a fourteen billion
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: year old universe. So you could imagine arguing that you
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: could have intelligent life earlier in the universe, but five
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: hundred million years after the Big Bang, that's pretty tough.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: It could be though, right, I would love to be surprised,
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: but then it would also be ubiquitous, right, it's in
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: every direction. That'd be pretty weird. But there are fun
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: ideas about weird stuff that could have caused this. Like
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: some people are arguing for direct collapse black holes. So
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: instead of black holes where first you have a star
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: and then it burns out and then it collapses and
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: to form a black hole when it runs out of
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: its fusion fuel, just goes straight to a black hole, right,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: enough gravity to overcome any fusion pressure or any degeneracy pressure,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: straight to a black hole. Nobody's ever seen this. It's
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: very speculative, very theoretical. It would explain super massive black holes, right,
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: because that's a theory for how you get so big
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: so fast, is that you use an accumulation method that
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: we haven't considered. Right, going straight to a black hole
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: and not wasting time glowing for a few hundred million.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: Years, that doesn't sound like a good use of time.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: It would be kind of awesome, but it feels like
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: it should be rare. Like the calculation suggests that it
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: shouldn't happen very often, so it's hard to use this
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: to explain so many little red dots. But again, we're
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: looking for surprises, we're looking to learn, So you can't
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: throw out an idea because it conflicts with your previous theories.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: You're hoping to conflict with their previous theories. But you
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: know you have to find a way to make it work.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: You also can't just say, oh, this doesn't agree with
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: my theories, therefore it's true, right. You have to find
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: a new explanation. You have to find a coherent, holistic
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: theory that explains what we're seeing. So direct collapse black
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: holes could explain super massive black holes in the early
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: universe if we find a way to make them more common.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: The idea is that maybe we're seeing exotic or super
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: massive stars. Remember we talked about the first stars in
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: the universe being population three stars, these really massive, very
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: short lived stars. Nobody's ever seen these because they lived
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: very very briefly, just a few million years or tens
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: of millions of years, and we can't resolve individual stars
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: in early galaxies, so nobody's ever seen directly population three stars.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: They're only theoretical and so it could be that these
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: are population three stars, very early star formation, but much
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: more massive than we expected, maybe like up to a
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: million solar masses. There's like a limit on the size
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: of a star sort of surprisingly above two hundred and
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: fifty or three hundred solar masses. The interior gets so
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: hot and the fusion happens so fast that the star
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: basically blows itself apart. And those are the limits theoretically,
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: and we've never seen a star bigger than that. But
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: you know, early in the universe stars made mostly of hydrogen,
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: maybe up to a million solar masses. The models people
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: have developed for this kind of match the spectrum that
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: you've seen. You know, it's like the photosphere of this
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: star is predicted to give sort of a V shape
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: in the spectrum, which would be really awesome and it
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: could help explain super massive black holes. But you know,
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: this is very very speculative stuff, and the models are
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: still a very approximate. As you develop an idea, you
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: first describe it simply and then you improve it iteratively.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: You know, as time goes on, you have more energy,
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: more resources, and so the models are still very early
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: in development, and it could be that as we make
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: them more realistic, they drift away from describing the data
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: rather than towards it. We don't know, but you know,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: there are people out there working on this stuff and
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: maybe they're right awesome.
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: And so so far we've only talked about stuff that
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: we've already thought about, but just we're thinking about it
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: a little bit differently. Do you think it's possible the
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: answer could be something completely out of the box.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. You know, we are doing our best to describe
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: something new, but it's been years already. Right, These largs
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: we're seen very early in the James webrun and we
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: have not explained them yet, And so the first thing
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: you got to do to be conscientious is like try
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: to find a more prosaic explanation. But at some point
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: you've got to be more creative and come up with
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: like new things that might be able to describe what
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: we're seeing. And the best way to do that is
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: to get more information. Look at these things in the
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: radio using ALMA, look at these things in X ray scans,
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: try to figure out what this means. You know, this
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: also could be a harbinger of things to come, like
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: the James Webspace telescope is great, but it can basically
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: only see bright things in the early universe. It could
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: be that this is just like the tip of the iceberg,
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: and the early universe is filled with all sorts of
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: stuff we never imagined. We're only seeing the brightest ones
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: because that's what we're capable of. But maybe future telescopes
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: will be able to resolve dimmer things that are even weirder.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: So yeah, this all a lot of potentially exciting stuff.
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: The fact that this mystery has survived this long suggests
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: we have a lot to learn about the early universe.
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: Either way, Give more money to telescope people, more.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: Eyes on the sky.
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, you had to make it sound kind of creepy,
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: didn't you.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: No, that's not creepy. That's just being open minded. That's
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: just accepting the information in the universe is sending us man.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: Save it for the judge.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: All right, I'm happy to be prosecuted in the universal
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: Court of knowledge gathering, you know, as long as I
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: have my alien lawyer with me to explain to narrow
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: minded humans who can't think beyond their parochial Virginia ethics.
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: All right, well, I will be waving at you from
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: the freedom outside your cell and maybe we'll still be
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: able to record twice a week.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: But this was awesome. I hope we figure it out.
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: If you have to put your money on one of
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: the things that we've talked about today, which one?
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: Do you think it is something black holy? For sure?
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: Because it's already a lot of black hole mysteries in
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: the early universe. Okay, and you know, maybe this is
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: just connecting the dots between two things that are weird.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: But I feel like we never really understood early universe
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: black holes. Now we're seeing something new in the universe
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: we don't really understand. Maybe they're connected.
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: Oh, little red dots, how long before you tell the truth?
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: I have to get some muse in there. No, I'm
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: so sorry. Let's get that out.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: No, that was great. Adds some musical accompaniment to developer.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: Oh no, all right, thanks everybody, until next time.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: Keep your eyes on the sky. Thanks everybody for listening.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: Please go and do us a favor and rate the
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: show on whatever podcast app you're using. It really helps
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: people find us.
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is edited by the Matt Kesselman.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: He really is a wizard. You can also find us
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: online on Blue Sky, Instagram, and x D and K Universe.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Come engage with us.
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: You can email us at questions at Danielankelly dot org.
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: We really do want to hear from you, and you.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: Can find our website www dot danieland Kelly dot org,
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: where you'll also find an invitation to join our discord
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: where everybody comes and talks about the amazing universe.
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: And we also have the most amazing moderators. This is
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: an iHeart podcast. Thanks for joining us.