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Beginning a Counseling Ministry (w/ Femi Oni) · Small Town Summits

• Ben Whittinghill: It's to ask questions to better ascertain what is really at the heart of the issue that a brother or sister may be struggling with. And so God's Word is so, so skillful. It's like a scalpel lancing a boil. But if used improperly, it's like a bludgeon that we use to beat people to the ground with our answers without asking them questions. Thank you for joining us on the Small Town Summit Podcast. I am Michael Badger and this week I had the opportunity to speak with a dear friend of mine, Phimie Oning. Phimie is a pastor at East Randolph Baptist Church in East Randolph, Vermont. Not only that, but he is also a certified and experienced biblical counselor. Phimie joins us to help us walk through not only what a biblical counselor is, but how to get a biblical counseling ministry started in your own small town church. We hope you enjoy and are blessed by our conversation. All right, well, welcome to the Small Town Summits podcast. I am so thankful to be here with my ⁓ wonderful brother in Christ, Femi. For those who may not know you, do you mind just giving us a brief introduction of who you are, how you came to faith, and what you're doing now in ministry? Yes, so my name is Femi Oni. was originally born in Nigeria. I was born in Lagos. ⁓ grew up a little bit in Ibadon and moved to the United States when I was seven. I spent a few years before that in the US, but really seven years old is when I started to reside here permanently. And grew up in Washington state and listed in the Marine Corps when I was 20. And I came to faith at the age of 23. Interestingly enough, I'd made a profession of faith as a 12 year old and thought I was a Christian, but it was evident that I was not. Because as I grew up, I had no interest in the things of God, really. It was an intellectual interest, but my life didn't bear that out. Just with the sin I lived in. And it wasn't until I, like I said, had been in the Marine Corps for three years and I was at a bus station when I know some Christians that I was on my way back from San Diego, coming back to base to Southern California. So I was stationed at Camp Pendleton. I was getting ready to come back on base and there were some Christians sharing the gospel and they were handing out tracts and they came up to me and asked me, they shared the gospel with me and asked if I wanted to profess faith in Christ. And ⁓ if I'd really been a Christian, ⁓ what came out of my mouth would have been different. ⁓ I should have said something like, know, praise God that you're here. Has anybody accepted the gospel? What church are you at? But what instead came out of my mouth was no, thank you. I'll get saved when I'm ready. And it was then I've sort of day profound us from the depths, if you will, that I realized that, you know, there's something off here. And in my life up to that point had had made it evident that I wasn't a believer. It was clear that I wasn't a believer. And was just through a series of events that the Lord broke me. And I remember standing ⁓ in a worship service. I was going to church. They'd been invited by a family that ministered to Marines. We were far from home. It was at that time that I just collapsed, almost literally and gave my life to the Lord just because of the way he, the preceding six months he'd broken me. ⁓ Just through a series of events, too long to belabor, but very painful that the Lord finally used to get my attention. So I 23, came to faith in Christ and then began to grow. was going to Pacific Coast Church in Southern California and was sensing a call to ministry. I was about 25 at that time and didn't know what that meant. So I approached the pastor, Mike Fabares, was the pastor there at that time. And he had me talk to the associate pastor, Mark Ambrose, and who was working, I think he was in seminary and he was, think he was doing his final project, something like that on Spurgeon's Call to Ministry. And he suggested that I read that and it was in that, that I knew that was the, the, the final lock in the Tumblr, if you will, that said, am called. And, but it was just many years from that point. ⁓ before I actually was able to get into vocational ministry, 17 years to be exact. from 25 to then 40 married with four children started attending ministry and do a series of events, got to know Marty Bascom. And so I now serve as the associate pastor at East Randolph Baptist Church, which I guess would be in central Vermont. I guess the upper valley here is what they would call it actually. So. That's my story and that's how more can be said, but I think that's sufficient. Yeah, that's wonderful. Well, I'm so thankful that you're here and man, it's been such a sweet time. I wish we lived closer together in Vermont because I'm all the way up at the top right next to Canada and you're a little bit lower down. But every time I get the opportunity to talk to you, it's so sweet. And so I'm really looking forward to the conversation and the gist of this conversation is really going to be focusing on biblical counseling. and not only biblical counseling and what it is, but ⁓ starting a biblical counseling ministry in your church. So last year for our small town summits, the focus was just on that. We partnered with CCEF and we focused on biblical counseling and you were one of our breakout speakers and you were also one of our panelist speakers and that was wonderful and amazing. And so we wanted to get you on here and talk about that. But before we... really begin to talk about the nuts and bolts of starting a biblical counseling ministry in your own small town church. ⁓ First, how did the topic of biblical counseling really begin to weigh on your heart and how did you find yourself in that world? Right. So, ⁓ you know, that's part of my story. So I had no interest in biblical counseling. first, as a matter of fact, when I first started to entertain the idea of seminary as a 40 year old married with four children, like I said, I was thinking, because I'm remote, I'm still finishing up my MDiv at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. I was a remote student and there were limits to what I could take. And what I was actually interested in was apologetics. an MDiv, Masters of Divinity in a concentration, with a concentration in apologetics or something to that end, perhaps pastoral ministry. And I don't remember what all the limits were on what I could take, but it was clear that I couldn't take that at that time. As an online non-resident student, had to be a resident student and just the particulars of my life. Having a home, again, a family that just wasn't a viable option, especially my age to uproot and move down to Louisville, ⁓ Kentucky and go to seminary. So I was really constrained at the time by what I could do. I was at a faith community church in, in Barry and the senior pastor at the time. This Autry was helping me think through what I could, what my options were. And he said, you know, Femi, you, what you want to try to do at seminaries, get from seminary where you can't, what you can't get anywhere else. And at that time I really didn't know about biblical counseling. And that was one of the options is, and I continued to think through it. thought, I guess God is sovereign and his providences at work here. And that's when I really started to wrestle with the doctrine, at least practically speaking in my life with ⁓ the sovereignty and the providential workings of the Lord. I said, well, if God is God, then it is not by accident that I have these constraints and that I'm all the way over in Vermont and can't be down in Kentucky. And so it seems like this would be best to serve the congregation I'm in. And so it was just through a series of events that I reluctantly went into that sort of like the way C.S. Lewis talks about being the most reluctant convert and all have blended to Christianity. so I reluctantly went into biblical counseling and by way of necessity, not by way of desire. And as time went on, the Lord began to work on my heart, make it clear. I have kept ⁓ a journal for, guess, over 20 years now, more so intermittently in recent years. But as I go back and read through that, the things I was writing, how the Lord was working on my heart at that time going from, I have to do this, but I don't want to, to, I think there might be some value here, to this is actually a desire of my heart. To now where I am. by God's good grace, skilled at it. I think I can say humbly. And so that was how I got into biblical counseling, just sort of drug in by God's providence and his plan for my life. And coming to a place now where ⁓ I enjoy it and have been ⁓ privileged and honored to see the Lord be pleased to use me in the lives of the people in the congregation I now serve. Wow. Wow. How amazing is that, you know, getting into biblical counseling through that avenue without even really having at the very beginning a real passion for it? Because I feel like you don't really see that very often, you know, when you're going to seminary and you're doing all that work, it's not usually, you know, you usually hear the story of I'm in the track that I'm in right now because it was the only thing that that was there. But praise God that you leaned into trusting in God's sovereignty and how that and how He's led you now to... You know being a in my mind anyway biblical counseling extraordinaire and so I praise God Amen brother well so for those who may be listening in and may not have a lot of familiarity with biblical counseling could you define that and and maybe even Speak to how it is different than than secular counseling or secular therapy Yes, and so I'm I'm grateful here and I want to just say to what really began to turn my heart toward biblical counseling was Dr. Jeremy Pierre, one of my professors at Southern, just an extraordinary teacher and really started to open my eyes to see the value of this and the necessity of it. And first and foremost, not in the life of others, but in my own life as the Lord was doing significant heart surgery in my own life. There were many times that would come out of lectures. My wife can attest to this where I'd have to numerous times in any given lecture come out and ask her for forgiveness because the Lord had used Dr. Pierre to highlight a sin in my marriage or in my parenting. And so I have to come out and say, Dr. Pierre just said this, will you please forgive me for da, da, da, da, da. And so that was when I really started to see it because I saw its own work in my life. But as far as what biblical counseling is, I think it's helpful to use a definition that Heath Lambert provided in his book, The Theology of Biblical Counseling. And he first starts off with speaking about what counseling is. And this is the definition he gives. says, it's a conversation where one party with questions, problems, and trouble seeks assistance. from someone they believe has answers, solutions, and help. And so it is ⁓ largely dialogical where we think about preaching, is monological. Like we are speaking to the saints gathered and those who have not yet bowed the knee to Christ. This is dialogical, least to two parties here. And so that's counseling. And biblical counseling is a ministry of the word. We have the public ministry of the word. and preaching, the private ministry of the Word, and our devotional time with the Lord as we open His Word and seek to hear what He would say to us. And biblical counseling is a personal ministry of the Word. Like I said, it's dialogical and it is problem initiated where a counselor, if he will, seeks to help a counselor, I will call the other person, by bringing to bear. what the word of God has to say regarding, as Keith Lambert said, their questions, their problems, and their trouble. And so, yeah, it's a ministry of the word where we seek to bring what God has to say about that. And there's a podcast counseling talk with Deepak Raju and his another brother and sister whose name eluded me at the moment. But they talk about bringing the riches of God's Word to help with our troubles. And so yeah, there's biblical counseling. is counseling. It is conversational, like I said, dialogical, bringing God's Word to bear to hear what the living God has to say about our, the circumstances of our lives and our sins in our self-brains, our weaknesses and how we might how we might deal with those things in accordance with His Word by the grace of the Lord Jesus ministered to us by His Spirit. Yeah, that's excellent. That's excellent. So you spoke about how as you were going through the biblical counseling ⁓ courses and you're getting ministered to really buy them, ⁓ it really impacted your marriage life. And ⁓ I was going through some courses with ⁓ Ernie Baker, who's online teaching those classes. And exact same thing happened to me. know, when he, especially when he got to the section on marriage and he was teaching that and ⁓ same thing. I immediately had to go and say, ⁓ honey, I've been handling so much of our conversations, so much of our disagreements in such a sinful and selfish way. So I'm right there with you. It was wonderful to one degree, but ⁓ man, it was so convicting. another, but ⁓ so it's affected your marriage, obviously, but how has ⁓ biblical counseling and this biblical counseling training affected the way that you have pastored? Because one of the things that I quickly realized when I first began my pastoral ministry, I think I may have mentioned this to you a while ago, but ⁓ one of the things that I noticed quickly is that I would have people come up to me and share the situations that are going on in their lives that are just a great burden on their hearts. And I quickly found myself only being able to just kind of pat them on the back and say, hey, I'm praying for you, buddy. And then finally, when I got into the biblical counseling, I was finally able to have the tools in my tool belt in order to truly address those things. And so was that similar for you as well? Or how is that, how's biblical counseling? shaped or helped your pastoral ministry? ⁓ yeah, absolutely. I it's helped tremendously. Some of the ways that come to mind immediately is that I mentioned that I wanted to study apologetics because what I was looking for at that time was to arm myself with a salvo, if you will, that I could unload on people. It wasn't to, as one person said, it wasn't to win them over, it was to win over them. And so I just wanted to have answers loaded to bear to say, well, this is what you're wrong. Well, biblical counseling has done for me in terms of pastoring is one, it's helped me to be able to ask questions instead of just having ready answers. And they might be the right answers even. It's to ask questions to better ascertain. what is really at the heart of the issue that a brother or sister may be struggling with. so, ⁓ God's Word is so, so skillful. It's like a scalpel lancing a boil. But if used improperly, it's like a bludgeon ⁓ that we used to beat people into the ground with our answers without asking them questions. And so, it's helped me to ask better questions and to be more deliberate in trying to think through answers. ⁓ It's also helped me to be more prayerful. ⁓ Just as I learned to become more dependent upon the Holy Spirit all the time when I'm counseling or when whether formally or informally, I'm silently internally asking the Lord for help. Asking Lord not just for help to ask questions or deliver truth, but to help me listen and to help me understand. So that's one way. Another way is one way that I particularly struggling as I'm sort of, if you will, in preaching a Johnny come lately, you know, cause I've come to ministry much later in life, as I said, in my forties. And so growing and preaching and having such a wonderful. mentor and Marty Bascom. And one of the areas that I've struggled is an application. think I've grown in being adept at teaching God's word, but how do I apply it? And as I've had the opportunity to counsel, I am more ably to bring to bear God's word because I know the situation, the circumstances of my brothers and sisters. even though I've grown in knowing the congregation, I well, I think when I get to know my brothers and sisters individually, again, it could be formal. My office could be informal just after church and we're having conversation. I'm more, I've become more skilled in ⁓ applying God's word because I'm thinking of a certain demographic or I'm thinking of maybe a series of problems that brothers and sisters have shared with me so I can say, ⁓ is a ⁓ trending issue within the body or within a subset of people within the body, if you will. I can say, I hear some people that I can minister to directly with God's word as I seek to minister more broadly to the congregation I'm preaching. And so at least those two ways come to mind. I've grown in my ability to do that. Obviously more growth is necessary, but just that's an immediate benefit. And that's one way I think Marty has mentored me to think about preaching in terms of the connection between ministering to God's people and preaching to God's people, but actually knowing God's people. Yeah. Amen. Amen. Well, so when did this burden for Biblical counseling and ministering to your people in this way grow from or I guess grow into a desire to actually create a full-blown Biblical counseling ministry in your church. Yeah. Well the credit there lies with Marty and the other elders and so Marty had Caught a vision if you will I don't I don't mean mystically but in terms of ⁓ this is what the church is missing when he was sitting under the instruction of Dr. Stuart Scott, when Marty was in seminary a long time ago. And so he, so he just had an epiphany that this is what the church is missing, not just East Randolph Baptist Church specifically, but I think the church at large. so I met Marty at a CCEF conference, CCF New England in April of 2019. And this was part of the breakout. actually met him in passing because I saw this guy and I said, that dude's got a cool beard. And so when we were at Five Guys later, I'm standing in line with my wife and I happen to see Marty sitting with his wife, Julie. And so I just leave my wife standing in line and head over to Marty and I said, dude, I like your beard. And that's how I got to know Marty Bascom. we were different churches, different contexts at the time. We exchanged information and he had one of his elders at the time reach out to me because there was a situation that they thought I could help with. so I, you know, just sort of Johnny on the spot as it were, came and helped with this particular situation, spoken to someone's life that they thought that I could, along with this other elder. so, and then that was that. So we sort of parted company and, and, ⁓ a series of events, I ended up at East Randolph, not on staff, but just as a faithful church member. I think in Marty's mind, he thought that maybe potentially it could be more than that. But he was very cautious. It's one of the things I appreciate about Marty, he's just very cautious and ⁓ strong in his conviction that biblical counseling was necessary. And it would become a requisite part of East Randolph Baptist Church specifically, but very cautious in how he approached that. so I was with my family just serving as a faithful church member. started in East Randolph on January 11th, I 2021, and just wanted to be faithful members. And it was over the course of the next 18 months. that Marty, along with the other elders, started to slowly, as I said, and cautiously entertain the notion of me coming on staff. I was retired from the Marine Corps, but was still working for the Department of the Navy doing human resources at Norwich University and at East Randolph, attending and serving. so just over the next 18 months really began to a dialogue with Marty and other elders about what that might look like for me to come on staff and in what capacity. And so the church ended up voting to bring me on staff. And with the understanding that I was being brought on staff to start a biblical counseling ministry. So I came on staff, think it's September of in after I'd left the department of the Navy and continued my studies at Southern, taking front-loading all my biblical counseling courses, beginning to counsel within the local body with the skills that the Lord was graciously giving me, and then finished my certification with ACBC last October. I'm the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. And now that that is done, the elders very carefully set up a pathway to this by working through seminary, completing the ACBC certification, continuing to counsel within the body. And then once I had the certification, then let's begin to frame the ministry. And so that conversation has continued. Now, one of the elders, of course. is the associate pastor and then now beginning to frame that out now. But counseling all the while ⁓ growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus, growing in my skill set for certification. Until now we are at a point where it's, okay, how do we get to frame this out? How do we begin to identify people in the body who might have a capacity for counseling? growing in counseling ability and skill as well as also a desire to become counselors within the body. Yeah, that's excellent. Well, I would love to talk about some of that if you don't mind. As you're framing out this ministry, what does that look like? What is that kind of framework that you're trying to create, I guess, as you're trying to create the structure of the actual counseling ministry? ⁓ The steps that we have taken or the steps that we're currently taking next week, my wife and I and another elder and his wife are going to the biblical counseling conference at Faith Church in ⁓ Lafayette, Indiana. They are that church is the biblical counseling powerhouse. It's an ACBC certified training center. And so we will be there. for the one week conference that they do every year in February. My wife and this other elder and his wife will be attending track one, which is a phase one of the ACBC certification. The Association of Biblical Counselors has three phases. And so this will be the initial phase. And then I will be doing track three, which is the advanced phase. And so we will, upon return, Imagine we'll sit down with the other elders and then begin to think through what does this look like in terms of infrastructure? Right now we counsel in my office, which I'm sitting in right now. What does that begin to look like to begin to identify people in the body? One of the wonderful things that Marty and the other elders have done is that long before I came on staff long before I was even in this church, at least a decade, not more, Marty has seeded this idea to the congregation. So, and the congregation is fully supportive. And so this is not something that is strange or new to East Randolph Baptist Church. It is, I think part of the DNA has been part of the DNA, Marty and the other elders have made it part of the DNA. And so I'm just one of the puzzle pieces, if you will, of completing that picture that the elders along with Marty have been drawing and highlighting for the congregation for such a long time, even at a point now where it is part of of our bylaws. And so as when we return, ⁓ my wife and I, and this other couple to begin to work through infrastructure, identifying people in the congregation really begin to highlight it. We sent out a weekly email to the congregation about working to the church, an email that Marty and I do. And so this past week, we sent out an email to the congregation, letting them know that, hey, many of you know, I finished my certification. Amy and I and this other couple are heading to to Lafayette, to faith, a church there to continue to grow in our counseling. And the whole purpose of this is to come back to equip the body. So very much an Ephesians four model, equipping the saints for the work of ministry. And that is something that Marty's just seeded in the bottom. So they understand that, they get that. This is just the next phase of that. And so that's what that looks like at this stage. And like I said, I've been counseling here now for almost four years since June of 2022. And so the church has known that, it's become normative. We've had the privilege of walking alongside a number of brothers and sisters within the congregation, had the privilege of helping members and tenders at other churches and currently doing so now. And so this is just an ever expanding part of the DNA at East Randolph Baptist Church. Yeah, that's excellent. That's excellent. So you mentioned one of the things that you guys are attempting to do ⁓ as you build this ministry is identifying people within your congregation who you could, and correct me if I'm wrong, who you could raise up as fellow biblical counselors. So how do you go about ⁓ identifying those people who might be good biblical counselors. then I guess the question is, what do do with them? Do you send them through a certain pathway? What does that look like? Yes. so East Randolph Baptist Church planted Cornerstone Church about, I'd say about this point, roughly about a decade ago. think in 2017 it was. Aaron Sellers is the pastor there. He is also a certified biblical counselor and we used to do a joint midweek Bible study with him. And about three years ago, one of the offerings we had was a biblical counseling. Wasn't a small group, but for those, we did it sort of a, in a semester type basis. So fall semester, spring semester, and the two churches would come together and they could look at, Hey, some people we were offering. a group in marriage or biblical theology or biblical counseling. So at that point we had identified there were a number of people in both our churches and I had the privilege of leading them through. We went through ⁓ IBCDs, ⁓ phase one, the Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship, where I think Jim Neuhiser At least my last understanding was the executive director of that. And so it may have changed now, but we did all our instruction was under ⁓ Dr. Neuhäuser. And so we went through phase one of the ACBC certification process, that pathway. And so. We ended with that and then some who were in that group continued to pursue certification. And so as not only was it East Randolph Baptist Church in Cornerstone, but there was one woman from the Baptist Fellowship Randolph and another local church in this area who was going through it. so through our three churches, there were people who ended up doing phase one and were equipped. to begin to think through counseling biblically. And then there have been others since then who have continued to pursue certification. at this time, I'm the only person certified at East Randolph Baptist Church. But I think what we will do is repeat a similar model here at East Randolph once we really begin to get that off the ground. But that was a good test bed for us. And it really opened the eyes to people, the eyes of our brothers and sisters to biblical counseling, the sufficiency of scripture, and how God speaks to these different, the totality of our lives. So I think we will replicate a model like that when we really start to look to identify people in the body and really start to invite people one-on-one. And there are people who you notice and you get to know, as you see them interact, we have six small groups here at East Randolph Baptist Church and run by the elders and their co-leaders. so as we, you just get to know people and you notice how they interact with one another and how they, some just seem to be very skilled at listening, being very skilled at giving good counsel. And you just. to file that person way in the back of your mind and think, you know, that might be a person that I need to approach at some point and say, hey, this is what we are thinking about doing. I think it would be good at this, biblical counseling. Would you prayerfully consider if this is something that the Lord would have you do? Yeah, that's wonderful. And one of the things that you mentioned as well, just a few minutes ago is bylaws. And I think that there are times where, you know, when we Planted Redeemer Church, one of the things that I was probably looking forward to the least was going and writing bylaws and thinking through policies and all of that kind of stuff. But can you speak to the importance of bylaws and policies when you are starting a counseling ministry? And maybe what does that look like for you all at your church? Yes. So I think we just updated our constitution and bylaws about three years ago and Marty tells a great story about growing in his understanding and conviction of their importance. I can't remember the exact circumstances, but he was somewhere and someone was speaking and they pointed to Titus one where Paul is writing to Timothy and sending him to Crete and he says, that I am sending you here to set things in order. Something to that effect. And this gentleman that was speaking, that Marty was listening to, talked, used that to derive an understanding of the importance of how we use the constitution and bylaws to set things in order. And so when we, and I don't have them in front of me, but when we updated our constitution and bylaws, we really thought about how could we ⁓ implement, I guess is the best word, biblical counseling and sort of thinking through discipleship in that? Because another way that biblical counseling is termed as intensive discipleship, you are seeking to help someone ⁓ who has a particular ⁓ sin or suffering or something there like to help them continue to be or become a healthy member of the body. And so, as we were just thinking through discipleship as the bigger umbrella under which biblical counseling falls under, how might we include that in a general way in our Constitutional bylaws? as I said, I don't have them in front of me, but we were thinking about that as a mechanism. or discipleship within the body. That's excellent. Yeah, yeah, that's such a good thing to keep in mind as you're wanting to go about doing this. ⁓ Now, what, as you were beginning this counseling ministry, and you can answer this question in multiple different ways, but what were some of those difficulties when you first got ⁓ going with ⁓ your counseling ministry? ⁓ And has there been any difficulties in getting this counseling ministry in your church off the ground? I think the primary difficulty, as I remember it, was just in my concern. And I'm not sure that this is an A concern that the other elders had very well may have been. ⁓ but if it was, it certainly wasn't communicated in this way that my skill, you know, even though I'm counseling four years, isn't a lot of time in the scheme of things. And so just being really cautious and anxious about boy, as Marty has said, you know, having picked this up from someone else. You're dealing with the fine China of people's lives. so just making sure that I was actually adept at what I was doing. so that was a personal concern for me as I began to tentatively speak into people's lives. Just really questioning what am I doing? Do I know what I'm doing? And so that was on, and then the other thing, just thinking through what are the practical steps. So in terms of methodology of counseling, like am I, am I, as I like to say, am I walking the dog correctly in, in asking questions? Am I really getting to the heart of the issue here? What are the next steps? How do I know if I'm actually helping the person? How do I know when I've helped the person sufficiently so that they can be, you know, graduated or released from counseling? ⁓ Where do I counsel? What sort of considerations do I need to have for counseling just in terms of confidentiality and who should I tell, who should know about this, who should not? So was really personal in terms of the skill, but also practical in terms of What does this look like to begin to do this? think those were the, if not the problems, certainly the heaviest matters to consider. Yeah, absolutely. Did you have any concerns with people even trusting the biblical counseling ⁓ methodology or even the philosophy of biblical counseling? Because one of the things that I ⁓ noticed is, at least where I am, ⁓ There's a lot of people who've been to therapy, who've been to secular counseling. ⁓ And when they think about is scripture truly sufficient to handle anxiety or truly sufficient to handle these deep psychological and heart issues that we're going through? Was that ever a concern for you of trying to just win people over and say, Yes, it is. You know, Scripture is sufficient for these things. know, I don't think so much, at least in my context, so much immediately, but I think that is an issue pervasively. And what I mean by that is, when you look at the ascendancy of secular counseling in the 19th and 20th century, where we are a very psychologized ⁓ society. Now, psychology has its merits and so, please don't hear what I'm saying. It makes helpful observations about things. And so, we have not only in the broader culture, but the church, the sort of going currency is to refer out. I have actually even heard I've to a recent conversation with a pastor talking about how though he's a proponent of biblical counseling, in his day, that wasn't the thing. He's an older gentleman than I, and so he would refer out. Or I've spoken to pastors who have said, yeah, I'm not a counselor. And so not just within the body, ⁓ not just at the society at large, not just even just, ⁓ within our churches, but even vocational ministers of the gospel, ⁓ for, at least in my anecdotal experience, for not a few that is, well, I just refer out or, or Femi, would you help me with this? Because I don't know. And certainly there's something to be said in the same way that I may talk to you about, Michael, there's this theological issue that I'm not getting, would you help? So this is not to say that we don't ask for help. The question is, where are we going for help? And I think just in the broader culture and sadly in the churches, is the pastor deals with the soul, but anything for the... the body or anything that's not salvific in nature, let me say more specifically, something if it doesn't have to deal with salvation, then it's the purview of the psychologist or the psychiatrist. ⁓ so, and I think to some extent, I think I'm going to tread softly. I think we've all dealt with this. I I even dealt with this. last year thinking about the sufficiency of scripture. And yes, I'm a biblical counselor and I trust the Lord, but it wasn't until I took trauma and crisis and counseling with Dr. John Henderson when I was thinking about, scripture does speak to even traumatic effect. Now, again, let's be careful that doesn't mean like I'm not a doctor. So there are things that are outside my purview. whether someone should or should not be on medication, that is outside my purview. That is the purview of the doctors. So I say that to mean that there are true and real physical and physiological problems. ⁓ I don't dispute that. But I think we think biblical counseling can't speak to all of those things without me saying, you don't need a doctor. think, well, I need to go see a psychologist. I need to go see a psychiatrist because my pastor couldn't have anything to say or really the God's word really couldn't have anything to say about this particular struggle that I'm having. If I'm depressed, I need to go see a psychiatrist and I please don't misunderstand nor do I want the audience at large to misunderstand. not saying there aren't real issues that doctors need to deal with, but I think we give scripture short shrift in terms of the sufficiency of God's Word and what it speaks to, which is all of life. Yeah. Amen. Well, we've spoken about some of the difficulties of biblical counseling and getting a ministry started. What are some of the joys? What are some of the joys that the Lord has allowed you to be a part of and some of the fruit that you've experienced from the counseling ministry? I think the joys have been almost incalculable. First in my life, the sanctification that the Lord has wrought in me because I'm able to think through more clearly, more biblically, what is the issue going on in my own heart. So let me start there. I remember having a class with Dr. Pierre and I've been one who has struggled significantly with anxiety. So much so that I've had to have counseling for an almost crippling anxiety and asking Dr. Pierre, not just academically, but personally. I struggle with anxiety and him helping me to think through anxiety as a, as not the heart issue, but the presenting issue of the heart issue in terms of either not what's not wanting something that I'm afraid that I will get or, or, or, or getting something I don't want. And so helping me to think through that. So first and foremost, it starts with me biblically in terms of what, what are the issues of my own heart? And how has the Lord's Word been sufficient to work through so much of it? So that's first and foremost. then also just seeing God bring his riches to bear in the lives of my brothers and sisters here at East Randolph Baptist Church. There's one young woman who, along with her husband, she was the first person I counseled here and has been my longest counselor. over multiple years, but to see what the Lord has done in her life. It's glorious. And not just in her life, but in her husband's. First meeting with her and her husband there, obviously, is just proper decorum. And not meeting with a woman alone. But then helping him to grow and being able to counsel his wife. and just getting to a point where why don't you help your wife? You know, instead of this situation an episode arises that she not call me first, but that you seek to help her. And then if you are enabled, then you can reach out to me and just seeing him grow ⁓ as a husband, ⁓ grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ⁓ It's just wonderful. so And that's just been so sweet. Other people that I've had the privilege of helping, people that I have the privilege of helping now and being on the front lines, if you will, or at least having a 50 yard line view. not much, I'm not an athlete by any stretch of the imagination. So I might be using my illustrations poorly, but. just being there and to see the Lord work by His Word and His Spirit and His people. ⁓ It's such a wonderful thing to know that not just simply beyond the sufficiency of the Word, but that God is pleased to help His people. has promised that He will help and He does help. And sometimes it's like the young woman I was just telling you about, it's not just, well, God's going to fix everything, but to see God's people being able to have a robust theology of suffering, to know that progress and chaos can coexist, that the Lord is with them and for them. ⁓ That the Lord has promised to and does good and does do good by them ⁓ And to see the joy of them growing and for them to see that and for them to be able to measure that ⁓ It's it's tangible. It's palpable ⁓ And just to be humbled That like who am I that the Lord would be pleased to use me in the lives of his people and that I don't have the answers the Lord does. So, yeah, it's a wonderful thing. It's a sweet thing. It is God's kindness to me as well as to His people. Yeah, yeah. Amen. Amen. Well, what would you say to a pastor who is a pastor of a small church may feel, you know, things are... getting overextended as it is and maybe hesitant to step his foot into biblical counseling, what would you say to it encourage him? You how would you, how would you, guess, ⁓ pitch biblical counseling to him and his ministry and encourage him in that way? ⁓ I think. I the Lord equips us all differently. He calls our churches to different things. so, I think they would just prayerfully begin to ask the Lord, is there something that He has for them in this? I was talking about Marty earlier. You know, Marty just came to that because he was in seminary and he heard Dr. Seward Scott talking about it and realizing that this is something that he believed that the church should be a part of, the church should be involved in, that the church had the means because the church has the Word of God and the Spirit of God. to help God's people. So I would think that they should begin to pray about it, ask questions about it, learn about it. ⁓ Are there other pastors in their network that are interested in it? You know, there are great organizations like Restoring Hope New England, formerly. CCF Christian Counseling and Education Foundation, New England, Andy Engert and his fellow counselors. ⁓ I would humbly offer myself as a resource in terms of what that looks like to think through that. One of the things I love about restoring hope, they talk about restoring Christ to counseling and counseling to the church and how they are willing to come alongside churches and help. as you talked about, the small town summits focus last year, the summits was in counseling and how that was such a wonderful focus. And I know that it bore much fruit as I had the privilege of not only participating in the breakout, but seeing the many brothers and sisters who were there. And so all that to say counseling is not something tucked away in a corner. It's not something that while a pastor may be It be new to a pastor and or his church. It's, it's not a new thing in its modern movement. It is, you know, 50 or so years old. ⁓ I think there are many people in our context who have a heart for being able to help God more skillfully. And so I don't think you have to go far. Restoring Hope New England, the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. the books by people like Heath Lambert and Jeremy Pierre and, you know, just, just many others. Yeah. And so I would invite people to invite pastors to look into it, to pray about what the Lord would have them do. To reach out if they feel ill equipped. mean, they can reach out to you, Michael. I mean, you and I have talked about biblical counseling and I know you too are pursuing certification. so, you know, though you and I may be having a conversation, you're no stranger to it. And so, yeah, it's just a wonderful way to be able to minister to God's people. I think it is, I dare say, the best way to minister to God's people because we're bringing God's truth to bear in the lives of His people. The lives of those who have not yet bowed need to Yeah, absolutely. Well, Phimmy, I could talk to you all day long. This has been just an absolute joy, and I thank you so much for taking the time to ⁓ talk to me and to minister to the people who are going to be listening to this podcast. So thank you so much. Well, thank you, my brother. To God be the glory. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you again for listening to the Small Town Summit podcast. We hope that it was a blessing to you and if you are interested in learning more about the Small Town Summit ministry, check out our website, smalltownsummits.com. We also want to let you know about an exciting opportunity to join us, the Rural Home Missionary Association in Desiring God at a New England wide conference, October 5th through the 6th in Newburyport, Massachusetts. Our speakers, Dave Mathis and Scott Hubbard of Desiring God. We'll be helping small town pastors and ministry leaders remember that Christ is our treasure and goal in Gospel ministry. more information, visit stsfallconference.com. Again, that is stsfallconference.com. We hope to see you there.