Latest / UK Column Radio / A Picture Paints — with Jake Fern

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A Picture Paints — with Jake Fern · UK Column Radio

0:08
Welcome to UK column. I'm Charles Mallett.
0:12
Now Jake Fern. There is, I would say, an
0:15
enormous gulf between being artistic and being an artist.
0:23
What was it, to the best of your recollection, that pushed you
0:27
into the latter category and made you decide that you were
0:30
going to make a go of it as an artist?
0:34
You mean a professional like as a profession rather than just
0:38
doing stuff? Well, it was actually COVID.
0:41
Exactly. So yeah.
0:43
Yeah, it was, it was COVID really, because it's the gift
0:46
that keeps on giving because was it five years ago or more we got
0:53
that bounce back loan. I lost my job that I was, I was,
0:57
I was doing Photoshop retouching for a drinks company and that
1:05
that all dried up and then had six months of bounce back loan
1:09
to live on and had some paints in the loft And I started
1:12
painting and, and then started selling pretty quick.
1:15
I mean, I've painted all my life, but that was the push to
1:20
to really turn professional, if that's if that's the right word.
1:24
I think, I think it's absolutely the right word.
1:25
I mean both in in terms of the discipline, but also the way in
1:29
which people who are familiar with your art would, would
1:32
regard it. But so going back, therefore, I
1:37
mean in what way had you painted throughout life it was purely
1:42
recreationally or or was there more?
1:44
To it, no. I'd had, I'd had the studio, I'd
1:46
sold some, I'd sold some paintings for Greetings card
1:51
Company. So I was doing still life and
1:54
I'd done some portraits, one which I was really pleased with.
1:58
And then I, and then I couldn't afford to keep the studio, so I
2:01
lost the studio. And then and then I had a child
2:03
and then we had a house and then I had nowhere to paint.
2:06
And oil paints are very smelly and which is why I started doing
2:10
watercolours when I during lockdown, I had some
2:12
watercolours and I started painting with those.
2:14
And that's incredibly hard, painting portraits in
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watercolours because you can't make a mistake.
2:20
Oil paints are much more forgiving.
2:23
But yeah, I've painted all my life.
2:25
I've constantly doodling whenever I get my wife tells me
2:29
off because I just scribble over everything, even on the notes
2:33
that I've made here this just random scribbles.
2:38
I met a forger, a local forger who who a lot of people might
2:44
have heard of. His name is David Henty.
2:46
And it turned out we have quite a lot in common about how we see
2:51
the world. And we were doing some work
2:55
together, all above board, all legal, but we were doing some
3:00
copies. We call them master copies
3:02
rather than forgeries. And that's just when you, you
3:07
know you, you're copying well known works of art.
3:12
And we were, we were doing some Harlem Millers.
3:15
And he's a, he's an artist who uses a lot of text in his work.
3:21
And, and we thought, well, let's do our own kind of take on it,
3:28
talking about what's going on. And so that became The Righteous
3:33
Brothers. And it's this kind of thing
3:37
where where you've got is like a book cover and it's a bit of
3:41
Katie Joe there in the background.
3:43
And, and then, and then about a year.
3:47
So we we started doing that. And then about a year ago, my
3:49
wife had the great idea to do the 1000 Words podcast.
3:55
So we were trying to work out where else I could take it.
3:58
And she said, well, you love doing portrait demos online.
4:02
I'd done some time lapses and, and some demos and you loved
4:06
talking to people about what's going on in the world.
4:10
So why don't you combine the 2? So within a couple of weeks we'd
4:14
done our first one and we just did it on a few camera phones
4:19
and that went out and that that was received quite well.
4:23
And then some people got involved to help with the
4:29
technical aspect and it and it sort of went another level.
4:33
And hopefully now that's coming over to UK column in September.
4:38
Yeah, about which we are very excited and we will come back to
4:41
that later. I want to push you more on the
4:44
on the sort of the origins in the background, because I think
4:46
I think where you've got to is, is so fascinating and so
4:50
compelling. But you're perspective as it
4:54
were, as a, you know, obviously somebody who has considerable
4:58
artistic talent and then has converted that into a
5:01
professional opportunity, let's say.
5:05
But just to go back, were you were you sort of formally
5:10
trained or have you self taught or how have you got to where you
5:14
have stylistically? Well, I went to, I did a
5:21
foundation course in Birmingham. That's where I grew up and, and
5:26
that was more of a traditional old school training.
5:30
We did a year and then I, and then I plumped for then and I
5:33
thought, OK, well I'll go to, I'll go to uni and, and do fine
5:36
art. And I, I knew Brighton because
5:41
my aunt lived here, lives here. And so I knew it well.
5:46
And I plumped for Brighton and I didn't really look at the
5:48
course, but it turned out the course was a conceptual art
5:52
course, video installation, text, graphic film, all this
5:59
kind of thing. I thought it sounded quite
6:00
interesting at the time. I didn't realise that I wouldn't
6:06
pick up a paintbrush for the next three years at the time and
6:10
I didn't realise I was going to be indoctrinated into a, a
6:14
Marxist cult either at the time. So, so I was and I didn't.
6:22
And, and it wasn't until the end of that course that I kind of
6:28
had a bit of a, a bit of a breakdown.
6:34
Fortunately, or unfortunately, at the time, it seemed, but
6:38
fortunately, I, I was, I was given a copy of David Icke's The
6:42
Truth Will Set You Free. That was going back 25 years or
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so. And I read it just before I
6:51
graduated, just before I did my dissertation.
6:55
And it completely changed my worldview, obviously, but I
6:59
didn't have the foundation to deal with what I was taking on
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board. And I think this is where a lot
7:09
of people struggle, you know, maybe not so much now in the
7:14
last five years. There's more of a community,
7:16
more, more support for people. But especially back then, I
7:20
think when people were exposed to some of the, the alternative
7:25
theories and the truths about what's going on in the world, I
7:27
think it was quite hard for them to really contextualise it, you
7:32
know, And yeah, I, I, I mean, having said that, I, I think I
7:38
was, I was ripe for some kind of breakdown because I think I'd
7:42
had so much conditioning and, and I, there was part of me that
7:45
felt I, I think, I think in my soul I was ready to, for
7:51
something to crack. But it was, you know, tougher
7:58
than it needed to be, put it that way.
7:59
Maybe and, and, and then I did my dissertation and then started
8:08
to see through everything that I've been involved with for the
8:10
last three years. And now obviously I see further
8:12
education and the whole agenda. You know, I remember the first
8:16
as, as as part of, as part of the agenda.
8:20
I remember going to an art history lesson and being
8:25
introduced to the tutor. And he was, he was introduced as
8:29
a Marxist, an art, a Marxist art historian, you know, And I was
8:36
like, oh, hang on. I, you know, I knew enough about
8:40
Mark's nose. Sort of some like that was a
8:42
financial, that was a political thing.
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And I was like, OK, I don't really get what's Mark's got to
8:47
do with painting or fine art, you know?
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And of course I was, I, I thought, well, I hadn't found
8:54
the strength or I hadn't been trained to really question
8:58
things at that point properly. So I kind of accepted it.
9:01
And I, I suppose part of me wanted to be accepted and I went
9:06
along with it and I, and I, I bought into the whole BS
9:12
basically of, of, of that world, you know, deconstructionism,
9:18
these, do you know all that? The whole, the whole, a lot of
9:22
those terms, I'm not even interested.
9:24
They've just gone out of my vocabulary because they were
9:26
just so, so alien to how I see the world now.
9:31
You know, everything that we learnt then was about detachment
9:35
and separation and, and godlessness and, and lack of
9:41
spirit and over analysis. And, you know, I, I, I think,
9:45
you know, at the time people were dropping out of the course
9:48
because they couldn't handle it. And, and a few of us who were
9:53
sort of the successful ones, kind of, you know, thought, oh,
9:58
they, they just can't hack it. But looking back now, they were
10:01
the, they were the sensible ones or they were the ones who were
10:03
in touch. They could see that it was BS,
10:05
you know, and they, they didn't want to learn this crazy
10:08
language, this, this, you know, up its own arse language, which
10:13
was just about keeping this ball rolling of, of, of professorship
10:20
going into curator, you know, curating the next show.
10:24
And it's, it's in a very similar way to every other discipline,
10:27
whether it's medicine, politics or whatever, you know, it's
10:32
there's this status quo that just keeps, it's an, it's an old
10:35
boys club. Well, it was an old boys club.
10:38
Now it's, you know, incorporates every other but you know, it's
10:40
essentially the same, the same structure, you know.
10:52
So, so I left, I left uni and and didn't, didn't paint for a
10:58
long time. And then, yeah, as I say, it was
11:03
COVID that really got me back on track.
11:05
It's so interesting, you know, what you say about that stage of
11:09
life. Artists are given, for the most
11:15
part, a reputation of sort of non conformity and
11:21
unconventionalism and and those sorts of things.
11:25
But you're in a sense describing exactly the opposite, by being
11:29
drawn into, deliberately drawn into, or pushed into being part
11:34
of what you described as a Marxist cult.
11:36
With that in mind, do you, well, did you at the time or do you
11:40
now look back and see that there was a particular direction
11:43
following the course that you were supposed to be pushed in to
11:47
do such and such a thing? Yeah, I know it well.
11:50
You can see it reflected in, in like say in, in pretty much
11:53
every other discipline. And I think there's definitely a
11:56
direction. People are definitely pushed in
12:01
a, in a certain direction, but it but it, but it's reflected
12:04
in, in, in most disciplines, I think.
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And that, and that is a, it's, it's all those things.
12:11
Like I said, it's a detachment from spirit.
12:14
It's it's a, it's a very left brain kind of approach that that
12:27
is imposed upon even the creative arts.
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So I think you can, you can see that culturally that there's a,
12:34
there's a real power in art and music and, and any kind of
12:38
creativity literature. And I think the force that
12:49
wishes to control. That's a very great way of
12:53
putting it, but that's how I feel most comfortable saying it.
12:56
I don't like to say they, but the, the force that that seeks
12:59
to control will seek to control that powerful force of, of
13:06
creativity in the same way that it seeks to control the passion
13:11
in, in say, the environmental movement or, or, you know, any
13:15
other, the hippie movement or, you know, all these things tend
13:19
to, they tend to have power because they are a natural
13:24
expression of our human desires and, and will and, and, and
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what, what we tend to do. Even with that, you know, I
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don't like to necessarily externalise it and talk about
13:37
them and they, but even within our own relationships, you know,
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we, we, we can, we can seek to control and tame this kind of
13:47
energy. And, and I think that's what's
13:50
happening on the, on the, on the big scale, on a big picture.
13:54
So I think definitely art, music, literature, film, of
13:59
course they, they, you know, they're going to be susceptible
14:02
to, to the control mechanisms. Very much so, yeah.
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I think, I think they, they absolutely are.
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I mean, thinking back to people that you were alongside at that
14:12
point, either physically because they were on your course, or
14:17
people who were embarking on careers as, as artists.
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Now, do you, do you see that there's a that there's a
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pattern, a sort of response to what it is that you went through
14:29
and that they are, you know, predominantly aligned in one
14:32
way? I mean, how do you perceive that
14:35
generation of, of artists? Yeah.
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I think there's different levels, so I know there's one.
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One guy who did well in the course became a curator in in
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Birmingham of Midland Art Centre, I think.
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And then, you know, no doubt, no doubt ticks all the boxes.
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And you know, any, anything agenda driven just just is given
14:57
the green light. And then there's different,
15:00
there's different levels of that, you know, friends who are
15:02
successful to create or a lesser degree, even just the culture of
15:10
creativity is, is it's so easily to pull people.
15:15
It's so easy to pull people into that the kind of woke mindset
15:20
because it because traditionally, like you said,
15:22
we, we, you know, the create, the creative people are the ones
15:26
who generally are non conformist and and willing to question the
15:32
status quo. So over the last 4050, sixty
15:36
years, they've they've been the liberals.
15:37
You know, most, most of my friends came from the liberal
15:40
background. You know, they would think of
15:42
themselves as liberals or left wing, you know, certainly not
15:46
right wing. I mean, all those terms are
15:48
absurd anyway. But but you know, that's their,
15:51
that that's a construct which we get sucked into.
15:53
And, you know, so I think a lot of artists really struggle
15:59
because that, that, that culture is really thick.
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It's really tight. And then of course, you've got
16:03
funding. So like, like all of these,
16:06
whether it's medicine, you know, as I said, all, all these
16:09
disciplines, they all rely on funding, you know, because we
16:12
haven't got, we haven't got much of AA.
16:14
We haven't got much of A organic culture of, of expression.
16:21
You know, we all rely on, on, on some form of, of media, you
16:28
know, and whether it's a gallery, even just get putting
16:32
on a show in a gallery or getting, getting access to, you
16:35
know, television or, or, you know, some of the big shows in
16:40
London, whatever it is, there's we kind of rely on funding.
16:45
And, you know, we know how strict the, the guidelines are
16:50
when it comes to ticking boxes for, for applying for funding,
16:54
you know, especially from the councils.
16:56
And so that sort of keeps people in check.
17:00
And then you just get this, this, you know, mediocre kind of
17:07
safe, unquestioning, generally kind of woke mindset being
17:15
pushed in in most in most of the arts I think at the moment.
17:18
Yeah, I think that's that's absolutely observable, I suppose
17:23
from the broader media, media context, really the conditioning
17:30
of a particular situation via funding or its restriction is,
17:35
is in effect a form of censorship.
17:37
But do you see that as being understood in those terms by
17:42
people that are sort of outside of your sphere?
17:45
Or do people seem to think that it's it's fine that that's how
17:49
it? Should work.
17:50
I think it's just part of the part of the unquestioning
17:54
mindset that just people go along with it and it's not even,
17:59
you know, that might be, might be changing slightly, I don't
18:02
know. So we've just, we've just been
18:05
picked up by a gallery in, in Rye, wash house and parlour.
18:10
Wendy is amazing. And, and we've, we had a couple
18:15
of attempts to show our work, not the portraitship, but the,
18:19
the more sort of political work, The Righteous Brothers work.
18:23
And we knew, as we knew as it, people liked it because we, we
18:29
sell cards and small posters at some of the events, some of the,
18:33
the kind of await events, the festivals and things.
18:36
And, and people loved it. You know, I, I knew we were onto
18:39
something because they're, they're very easy.
18:43
They look good as posters, you know, and they're very sort of
18:45
graphic and that, you know, they're easy, they're easy to
18:50
market. And that we had a couple of we
18:54
had a couple of opportunities, but they fell through because I
18:57
think basically they pulled out last minute when they realised,
19:01
when they looked more at what we were saying, you know, and where
19:03
we were coming from. And so, and eventually recently
19:09
we Wendy came along and she's, she's really, she's really into
19:12
it, she's really keen and she's pushing it.
19:14
And so this is very like middle class gallery in in Rye with
19:20
these huge, huge paintings with follow the science and and
19:25
pictures of, you know, Gates and Epstein and you know, and, and
19:35
just stop being useful idiots, you know, and the the kind of
19:39
splashed with orange paint, like the just stop oil, you know,
19:42
and, and people are walking and she's so far the feedback's been
19:46
amazing, like just amazing. She's and all walks of life, as
19:50
we know from you know, we see at the festivals, don't we, you
19:53
know, and the marches and it's right through from, you know, ex
19:58
cons to Oxbridge graduates, you know, and every race sexuality
20:03
and you know, that is the truth of movement.
20:07
And you know, people are loving it.
20:11
And so there is there is a market there.
20:15
I've sort of lost the thread of the original question, but.
20:20
What was it? Well.
20:20
No, but this is this is great. This is, this is such an
20:23
interesting theme because the this is absolutely the other
20:26
side of the the same coin in so far as art in any form may be
20:33
used as a weapon of propaganda, but equally it may be used as a
20:37
weapon of resistance. And people have to look quite
20:40
hard sometimes to tell the difference.
20:43
So the, the right, because obviously you started off you,
20:46
you mentioned The Righteous Brothers.
20:47
I, I'd just like to go into more detail on that.
20:49
And exactly with you're going back to your conversations with
20:52
David Henty and, you know, how did you come up with that
20:55
concept? Like literally right from the
20:58
start. And what would be all the sort
21:00
of initial ideas? How did you develop?
21:02
Because you talk about it. I mean, I don't mean this
21:05
critically, but you talk about it in some rather blase fashion
21:07
as they, you know, it's no big deal.
21:08
It's just happened, but it is a big deal because look, look
21:11
where you are. You know, you've got it into
21:12
galleries, you've had a massive impact with it.
21:15
But just just go back a bit and describe how you worked up to
21:19
that point and how people started reacting and that sort
21:22
of thing. Yeah.
21:24
So as I said, we were, we were working on master copies and you
21:32
get pretty good when you do quite a few.
21:34
So there's a guy called Harlan Miller and he's he, he's a very
21:39
successful artist. But and he, you know, he, he's
21:43
not, he's not so woke. He's, you know, he's, he does
21:46
some interesting it, it basically people might recognise
21:49
them as a big Penguin book covers.
21:53
And then he'll, he'll, he'll throw in some title, which kind
21:58
of, you know, humorous or, or, or dark or, you know, obscene.
22:08
And we were doing a lot of those.
22:10
And then there's a, there's another couple of artists, what
22:14
they called the something. They were, they were called the
22:17
something brothers. I can't remember their name
22:19
there. And we're just, we're immersed
22:23
in, in copying. And then obviously when you get
22:26
good at copying something, you think, well, for me, when I'm
22:29
doing it, I'm just thinking, oh, I could do this like this.
22:34
And then it'd be so much better if we'd like, we'd actually be
22:37
saying something, you know, or, or I could bring in my, my
22:41
portraiture into it and sort of combine the two.
22:44
And just, and, and we, we got, we just got quite excited
22:49
talking about it and was like, well, let's do something.
22:51
And we started, we started, we started out doing some which
22:54
were taking the piss out of the, the art world really.
22:58
So we did a big one of Harlan Miller and imitation is the
23:04
highest paid form of flattery or something like that.
23:08
And we just mocked, you know, we did a complete RIP off of one of
23:10
his paintings, you know, with a different title.
23:13
And it just sort of gets you creative juices flying.
23:19
And then, and then we hit on the sort of standard format, which
23:24
is this kind of book cover. I found an old book cover online
23:30
and the book was called The Car Thief and we'd been talking
23:32
about doing one with Sadiq Khan and, and there it was the car
23:38
Thief with this guy. Maybe on the podcast we can show
23:44
some stills of some of the paints.
23:47
And there he was, this guy in kind of this 70s pulp, pulp
23:51
fictiony book cover leaning on the park on the metre parking
23:56
metre in his 70s gear. And we just swapped the face
23:59
around to Sadiq Khan's face, you know, and it's just the car
24:02
thief. And it was all there.
24:03
It was done, you know, and then we just used that format for all
24:08
the others. So it's a, it's a, it's a
24:13
slightly strange format because it's not like you haven't got
24:16
free reign. You, you're quite fixed.
24:18
So you've got this book cover, you've got a title, you've got a
24:20
subtitle, you've got a, a review, a fictional review from,
24:24
you know, some fictional newspaper.
24:27
And then you've got this image. And so you're trying to say as
24:29
much as you can within those parameters.
24:34
And it, it seems like it works really well.
24:39
And we're fortunate because we were making money doing the
24:45
master copies that we could afford to get a whole chunk of
24:48
big canvases, you know, 7 foot canvases because they're not
24:52
cheap. And then we had time, you know,
24:55
I had time to, to, to paint them, you know, so, and then
25:00
they were sitting there for about a year.
25:03
And like I say, we had two failed attempts at showing them
25:07
until, you know, until really recently where they've really,
25:13
it's really taken off so. And in actual fact, by happy
25:17
coincidence, I do have the car thief right here, which I'm just
25:21
holding up to the screen. And and I think what's great is
25:26
you, yeah, that like you say, the the bit at the top,
25:29
describing it as a gripping account of London's most
25:33
notorious Hwy robber. And there is indeed Sadiq Khan
25:37
leaning on the leaning on the parking metre.
25:42
But but, you know, this is yeah, go on.
25:46
Well, I say it's quite nice because you know, we might have
25:51
within the, within the movement, you know, there's various forms
25:54
of, of, of of how well there's various levels and depths to
25:59
which people go and rabbit holes and all kinds of stuff.
26:02
You know, everything's a sigh up.
26:06
You know, not everything's a sigh up.
26:10
Everything's controlled, not controlled.
26:11
You know, all the, all these debates go on within the within
26:14
the community and we try and pitch this as something that
26:22
that will speak to perhaps that that kind of middle ground where
26:27
people are questioning, but perhaps on shore, they perhaps
26:35
they haven't deep dived. And I think that's the strength
26:40
of it. At the same time, we don't want
26:42
to compromise the message. You know, I don't say anything
26:46
which I don't believe in, but I think it's important.
26:52
I think it's important to reach people where they're at.
26:55
Sorry, go on. Yeah.
26:56
But but it's it is wonderful in a way.
27:00
And I would compare this with perhaps what UK column is able
27:06
to do either through a screen or in person.
27:09
Art has that magic about it in that you are able to access
27:16
people in a sense much more easily because they only have to
27:19
look at it. They don't have to approach a
27:21
person and engage in conversation.
27:24
It's there. They look at it and in as far as
27:28
we can tell, no one, no one knows what's going on in their
27:30
head when they're responding to it.
27:32
And in in some senses, that does give an extra dimension to you.
27:39
So. But with that in mind, I mean,
27:41
have you had either directly or indirectly feedback suggesting
27:46
that the effect here has been felt by people who are not
27:52
necessarily already sort of where you might be with your
27:56
world view? Yeah.
27:57
Definitely. Yeah, definitely.
27:59
I mean, so I spent a day at the gallery and.
28:03
Right. And people are coming in and,
28:08
and you, yeah, I, I mean, I love speaking with people, as you
28:12
probably do, you know, with the UK column.
28:16
You know, when you, when you, when you're at the festivals,
28:18
you know, you're just inundated, aren't you?
28:19
And you've got such a loyal kind of audience.
28:25
But yeah, we had a great day just just sitting there watching
28:28
people come in and then talking to people.
28:31
And it's a whole range. You know, sometimes people say
28:33
things and you're not agreeing with them, but you want to
28:36
connect with them on the, you know, in whatever way you can.
28:40
And it it wouldn't be right at that point to necessarily expose
28:45
my true the depths of my my World Vision, you know, because,
28:51
because it, you know, you can get into real details and and,
28:56
you know, sometimes that isn't necessary.
28:59
But what, what I think is for me, I think things are going to
29:04
change primarily not when enough people have woken up.
29:08
And I don't really like that term so much, but it's, you
29:12
know, it'll do us shorthand. But it, it's not so much that
29:15
we're waiting for so many people to see through the illusion and,
29:19
and, and see recognised as an agenda.
29:21
I think more importantly is things will change when enough
29:26
people begin to articulate it and that are are feel confident,
29:35
confident and comfortable enough to say things that maybe four or
29:40
five years ago might have led to them being ostracised from their
29:44
peer group. And, you know, we're all in that
29:48
situation. Those of us who are lucky enough
29:51
to to to go to festivals and have meet up groups and stand in
29:55
the park, we're sort of getting there to that point where we can
29:59
speak, speak our minds freely and be who we truly are.
30:05
I think there's a huge number of people who could be what, I
30:09
don't know, twenty, 2530% maybe the population who are having
30:15
thoughts and questioning what's going on, but they're still
30:19
stuck in in a position where they don't feel comfortable,
30:23
confident, comfortable articulating it in a general
30:27
environment. Say they're at work or, you
30:29
know, they're in the canteen and someone says something.
30:32
And, and I think once they start doing that, things will change.
30:38
And I think that's where The Righteous Brothers come in.
30:40
So that's, that's it's, it's, it's saying to people, yeah, we
30:46
can talk about this like we don't have to necessarily agree
30:49
on everything, but something's going on that isn't talked about
30:53
in the mainstream. And if you can do that in a sort
30:56
of fun way, in an artistic way, in a way that people, you know,
31:03
like the the posters and the prints people could have on
31:06
their wall and the, you know, and the people come to their
31:09
home and they see them. They don't have to say, stand
31:12
there and say, oh, I think 911 was an inside job, you know, or,
31:15
or I think COVID was a scam. You know, they just have this
31:19
poster and it just hints at something, you know, and it
31:21
sparks conversation. And I think all these tools, a,
31:25
a good, you know, they're all, they're all pushing us in the
31:29
right direction towards essentially just freedom really.
31:34
That's, that's where we're heading, isn't it?
31:36
Freedom. Freedom of expression primarily.
31:40
Absolutely. And and you know, like I say
31:42
with with art, I think the great gift is that it is in a well, it
31:46
should really be in a non confrontational manner because
31:51
it's there. It's up to the person to react
31:54
to that as opposed to tripping up perhaps by engaging in direct
32:00
dialogue that might not be associated with something that
32:03
is to one side. So yeah, I mean, that is
32:09
amazing. And you're quite right to point
32:11
out that the necessity for face to face communications and just
32:16
being able to talk about things that people aren't going to be
32:19
provoked into some sort of reaction against immediately,
32:22
you know, like you say, just lightening the mood and making
32:25
things accessible and easily easy to talk about.
32:29
So with, with that in mind, it's obviously the, you know, what I
32:32
want to get onto is, is what the bulk of your work.
32:37
But with that in mind, do you think that subconsciously or
32:39
even consciously is that? Is that why you've been drawn to
32:42
portraiture specifically? Because of that direct
32:45
connection with the sitter? But both through painting and
32:48
through talking. Yeah, I just, I just, I think
32:52
I've always just found people fascinating.
32:56
So I think, I think, and I think always like a challenge as well,
33:00
because portraiture is definitely the hardest type of
33:06
painting. You know, you can get a
33:08
landscape a bit wrong and it, it doesn't matter, you know, you
33:11
put a tree in the wrong place or whatever.
33:13
If you're doing a face. We're so we're so attuned to
33:17
looking at each other's faces closely and determining if the
33:21
other person's healthy or judging us or, you know, all
33:28
these things, multiple thoughts that we go through when we, when
33:32
we look at a face. So to, to, to make that
33:36
convincing in the painting is, is definitely the hardest form
33:39
of art. So I, I've always enjoyed that
33:44
challenge. But also, yeah, like you say, I
33:46
just, I, I, I just, I'm fascinated by people, you know,
33:50
I just, I just love people and I love people, you know, I love, I
33:54
love, I love people even when I'm disagreeing with them, you
33:59
know, And, you know, sometimes that's a hard, that's a test,
34:04
you know. But yeah, I think, I think
34:09
portraiture and then and combining that with the, with
34:12
the political kind of messages has been really satisfying,
34:17
actually. Yeah.
34:19
And and and then finding the, the 1000 words outlet as well
34:24
has, has been brilliant, you know.
34:26
You know, for the, you know, this is obviously where we must
34:29
go into great detail because as you say, 1000 words podcast for
34:33
those that either do know what it is or don't is going to be
34:36
coming to UK column in the near future about which we're very
34:40
excited. But just before we get into that
34:44
sort of specifically, you know, so going back to 2020, got your
34:48
kit out again, started to get back into it.
34:51
Obviously you've painted many, many portraits in that time.
34:54
What what was the, what was the kernel of the idea for the 1000
34:58
words podcast? How did that come into sort of?
35:02
Conceptual. Reality.
35:04
I'd, I'd actually splashed out and I never do this.
35:09
I, I'd splashed out on a kind of mentorship programme.
35:15
And I've always been really cynical of these things, you
35:18
know, like, and in a, in a way, perhaps just the very act of
35:22
committing to something and, and splashing out focuses you in a
35:28
way that perhaps I hadn't been focused before.
35:31
And one of the one of the takeaways was a a worksheet
35:38
where you'd you'd write. It was nicely phrased.
35:41
It was, it was what can you, what can you offer the world?
35:43
Not, not what do you want to be or where do you want to be in
35:46
five years or what do you want to get?
35:48
Whatever it was, what can you offer?
35:50
What do you want to give? And I was scribbled a few things
35:54
and I was sitting in bed and I was looking at it.
35:57
And then Vicky came to bed and said, oh, can I have a look at
36:02
what you're doing? I said, yeah, I'm doing this
36:03
worksheet. She said, oh, I could write down
36:05
a couple of things, but or, or I'll just tell you because I
36:10
don't want to scribble all over your nice sheet.
36:12
Don't worry. They gave her the sheet and she
36:14
scribbled. She wrote a few things down.
36:16
She said, well, OK, so you really like talking about what's
36:20
going on in the world and you really like doing portraits.
36:23
So that's pretty obvious. You just combine the 2.
36:27
So, so we did and the 1st and within two weeks we've got Mick
36:34
Mad Mick, Michael Chaves, he's a good friend and we played music
36:39
with, he joined us on stage and, and we set it up and I recorded
36:46
it just on, on a three cheap phone cameras and it and it was
36:55
great and he was brilliant. He was a great 1st guest.
36:58
And when he saw it, he started crying.
36:59
And you know, I was like, oh, the money shot, we've got Mick
37:02
Cry. Then again, I realised Mick Cry
37:05
isn't anything actually so. But no, that, that was great.
37:09
And then and then then because I play music in a band as well and
37:15
we've done a gig at a little studio in Brighton because we're
37:20
banned from everywhere, every every other venue.
37:23
So we have to do it in our own rehearsal studio.
37:27
And Jackie Devoe came along, I don't know if you know Jackie,
37:33
she's got a, a great, well, she had a podcast, I think she's
37:37
paused it for now, but she does some brilliant work on the
37:40
particularly on the care homes. And she was with a friend who
37:47
she was on a date basically with a friend of ours.
37:50
And we were introduced and she said, oh, I'd have to come on
37:53
the show. So I did an interview with
37:55
Jackie and she ended up being the next sitter.
37:58
We had too many technical difficulties and it did go out,
38:01
but then I pulled it because it the sound was off and the camera
38:06
was off. So that one didn't go out.
38:08
But she was very gracious and helpful and lovely and she said,
38:12
who else would you like to have on?
38:14
So she got out her little Truth of Black Book, you know, and she
38:18
just said, what about David Icke?
38:21
I was like, oh, well, you know, yeah, I suppose why not?
38:27
And, and, and a couple of others, you know, names that,
38:31
you know, been big names in my life.
38:33
Like I said, I read David like 25 years ago and, you know, I'd
38:38
met him a couple of times. Just, I actually went to one of
38:42
his workshops late 90s. And it was in a Scout Hut, I
38:48
think knit just outside Brighton.
38:49
And there were about 12 people there.
38:51
And I remember him had a little cassette player and he played
38:54
Elton John. And I was like, what am I doing
38:57
here? I was just like, it was some
39:00
cheesy Elton John track, you know, he was sort of, because it
39:03
wasn't what I was expecting. I just read The Truth Will Set
39:05
You Free. And I was looking for, you know,
39:08
dark gender. Tell me who's running the world,
39:10
you know, And David was just talking about love and light,
39:14
you know, which was great. I mean, I totally get it now,
39:17
but it wasn't what I was expecting at the time, being a
39:20
kind of Moody young man. And anyway, so it's lovely to
39:27
meet him again. And we did the interview, we
39:30
went, we went up to Iconic Studios and they were great.
39:35
I mean, it was very, very relaxed.
39:37
They were, they were really welcoming and down to earth.
39:42
It was, it was, that was a nice afternoon.
39:45
So we had David Light and then Matt Letizier.
39:49
And I think after that, because we had a couple of big names
39:53
when we were pitching it to other people, you know, it sort
39:57
of had a bit of weight to it rather than just me saying, can
40:00
I paint your picture and chat with you for a bit?
40:04
You know, so, so yeah, it's, it's been great.
40:08
And we've had, we've had, we've probably done about 10 or 11
40:13
now, but that was on resistance. So now we're moving over to UK
40:20
column. Yeah, which is fantastic.
40:21
And I think going back to the image of, well, not necessarily
40:27
image, but the the idea of David Icke playing Elton John, which
40:31
might not be quite what you expected.
40:32
I think to anyone that has listened to any of the 1000
40:35
words podcast so far, we'll find that it perhaps what they hear
40:40
does fall into that category. Because I think the amazing
40:42
thing is that the after, you know, for a lot of people, many
40:47
years of listening to interviews, even with some of
40:51
the people that you're talking about or listening to
40:54
conversations that have involved them or thinking about what one
40:57
thinks one knows about a particular person.
41:00
What 1000 words seems to bring in is something completely
41:03
different because the context and the setting is, is so, you
41:09
know, so much different from from anything else.
41:13
So going back to the, you know, the very first one you're
41:16
talking about, I don't know if you can remember sort of how you
41:18
thought it would go compared with how it did actually go.
41:23
Well, the very first one with Mick, I knew that Mick could
41:25
talk, you know, and, and I knew I knew he once, once, once he
41:30
got going, it would flow. I thought it would be easier to
41:35
paint and chat because I was used to listening to podcasts
41:39
when I paint and then I realised when I was doing it, listening
41:46
and then actually formulating a response is a different part of
41:50
the brain. So I have struggled with that.
41:54
I mean, one, one way that I describe the 1000 words is doing
42:00
two things not as well as I could do if I was doing one
42:04
thing, you know, and, and you know, because people say do one
42:08
thing and do it well. Well, actually I'm doing two
42:10
things not, not that well, but, but that's sort of part of the
42:15
charm of it is part of the beauty of it.
42:16
Because I think I'm, I'm sort of on my toes trying to get
42:20
something that looks like the city where I can't fully
42:23
concentrate and I'm trying to have a conversation and I'm, I'm
42:26
probably not picking up on every lead.
42:28
But what, what that does, like you say, it's it, it's a little
42:32
bit like the psychiatrist's couch.
42:34
It's just got a bit of that kind of I because I just have to let
42:38
things go a lot of the time And and, and because it's long
42:41
format, so it's four, sometimes five hours.
42:44
I think Mick would nearly hit six hours.
42:48
Really. It did.
42:49
And, you know, because of that long format, the guests say
42:55
things that they probably haven't said before in an
42:57
interview. I mean, David, like the first
43:00
half is him just talking about his childhood, you know, and
43:04
that's not the kind of thing that anyone's really going to.
43:09
You know, if you've got an hour to talk to David Icke, you're
43:15
not going to go tell me about your childhood for half an hour
43:17
and then we'll get onto the agenda or whatever.
43:20
You know, your latest book, he's going to want to talk about from
43:24
the go. He's going to want to talk about
43:25
the book or whatever or, you know, people are interested in.
43:29
So it's, it's for people, you know, and, and that I think that
43:32
really resonated with a lot of people, though, a lot of
43:34
messages saying, Oh, that's so fascinating to hear his back
43:38
story, you know, just talking about his stories about football
43:43
boots and his first time in, you know, when he was a kid and just
43:46
he's wearing these huge football boots and how he scored a
43:49
penalty as a goalie and when he was 12 and it kick started his
43:54
career and all these kind of little stories.
43:57
And I I for me, I suppose, I suppose that's the crux of it in
44:02
a way. I'm interested in people perhaps
44:07
more than the details of what's going on out there.
44:13
Now that's not to say that's not important, but I think after
44:17
like when you've been looking at stuff for 25 years, I think you,
44:20
you sort of get to the point where you, you kind of know
44:25
something's going on and you've got a pretty good idea of what,
44:30
what's involved with the agenda. And, you know, I, I think
44:35
there's a point perhaps for each of us, depending on where we're
44:38
at, where you might want to take the foot off the gas in, in, in
44:44
terms of diving into the details and, and, and then refocus on
44:52
community, friendship, family building, You know, now they're
44:56
both really important. But I, I know someone that we'd
45:01
like to have on who's, who's agreed, but he's in Japan and
45:08
that's James Corbett. But I know he says that his
45:12
solution videos get the get the least amount of views compared
45:16
to his doom and gloom videos. You know, and there is this,
45:20
there is this, this tendency isn't there with us that we we
45:24
like to rummage in the, in the, you know, in the well in the
45:31
stool to examine the worms in the stool.
45:33
You know, we want to know what's going on.
45:34
And I think that's fair enough. There's a point that, you know,
45:37
that is a healthy thing to do at times, you know, but to have the
45:42
balance. And I think that's perhaps where
45:44
1000 words comes in it. You know, I think it will work
45:46
really well with the UK column because I think it will have
45:50
that left right balance. And I think that I think it's
45:53
great that you, that you, you know, that you're interested in,
45:56
in having us on board, because I think, I think it's important
45:59
for people to have that balance of perspective from in my life,
46:10
there was a period of probably about 10 years where I, you
46:13
know, just absolutely very, what is it left brain just looking at
46:21
the details, you know, examining, you know, reading
46:24
everything, the history of the agenda, all the, you know, so
46:31
many different aspects. There's, there's probably very
46:32
little that I haven't at least looked at superficially.
46:40
And then, and then from my, my personal perspective, I don't do
46:46
that so much anymore. You know, I just, I, I don't, I
46:49
don't feel the need to so much. And that, that was, that came up
46:53
with Sandy Adams. We did Sandy Adams and that that
46:55
was really interesting because she's she's quite a creative
46:58
individual. She's a very artistic person
47:01
herself, you know, and I could see this conflict in there, you
47:03
know, but what she actually does because she's, you know, she her
47:09
her analytical work is amazing. And she was almost doubting
47:15
herself saying, well, you know, I really maybe I should just be
47:19
being creative and do it, you know, go off and and leave it,
47:23
leave it behind. I think she was in sort of
47:25
dilemma, but it's so important to have both.
47:31
Absolutely it is. It's very interesting what
47:33
you're saying. Well, I mean actually, sorry,
47:35
first of all, I should go back and just pick you up on your
47:38
very self deprecating remark about the the podcast being two
47:42
things, neither of which is done brilliantly.
47:44
I would I would disagree fundamentally with that point in
47:49
that I've seen the portraits, all of which are absolutely
47:53
first class and. Yeah, but you didn't see them.
47:56
You didn't see them at the time. Well, OK, fine.
48:00
Come on, let's. Not because I do, I do, I do
48:02
work on, I do, I do take them away and work on them
48:04
afterwards. But yeah.
48:05
I know, I know, I know. But still, being able to do
48:08
those two things at all concurrently is pretty
48:11
remarkable. And the the main thing, exactly
48:15
like you say, the main thing is that you are, you're creating a
48:17
different environment, you're providing a totally different
48:19
backdrop, context, whatever. And, and I think people do give
48:25
of themselves something that you just don't get elsewhere.
48:28
It doesn't come across in other interviews, in other
48:30
discussions, that kind of thing. I and I, I think that's that's
48:33
really remarkable. And that's that's what I look
48:34
forward to about UK column going to host this because it will
48:38
give our audience a completely different perspective on the
48:45
both the people, but also the the, you know, the fact that it
48:48
is combined with a with a practical application of a of a
48:52
talent in this, in this instance, painting.
48:54
And I think that's another really important thing in this
48:57
day and age that people do have an insight into that which
49:01
we'll, you know, we'll come on to in a minute.
49:03
But but go, you know, James Corbett, we, I would echo this
49:07
from from this side of the world, the, you know,
49:11
unfortunate as it is, but actually, yes, material that
49:14
does provide, let's say solutions, whether they be
49:17
concerning something that you can absolutely sort of start
49:20
with today, which would be an easy 1 instead of health and
49:23
what you eat and where you get it and that kind of thing.
49:25
Yes, typically these sorts of things do get the least
49:30
engagement. And I think what's regrettable
49:33
in terms of the sort of like you say, there are two sides to it.
49:36
That's the personal or micro community bit and then the and
49:42
then the macro bit. I mean, I think the way I would
49:43
look at it is that they are absolutely part of the same
49:46
thing, but it's just that one, one comes before the other.
49:49
If you've got the, the personal small scale community thing
49:53
sorted, then then the rest of it naturally follows.
49:57
And I think for a lot of people who have been quite
49:59
understandably completely discombobulated by the events
50:02
that have happened in the world, most especially in the last five
50:05
years, it is really difficult to get a, to get a sense of that.
50:09
And I think that with 1000 words, this is an excellent way
50:14
to sort of address these kinds of things because it's, it's a
50:18
different tempo and and I think that's really come across in
50:22
what you've done to date. Yeah.
50:25
And I think my, my approach is it's certainly not
50:30
confrontational because I, I can't, I couldn't have an
50:36
argument with someone and paint them so.
50:39
So if people are looking for for confrontational interviews, that
50:44
isn't the place. But, but having said that, I, I,
50:52
I'm, I'm very keen and, and I make sure that I'm very honest
50:58
and truthful in, in my questions.
51:00
And I think if there is confrontation, it hopefully
51:07
it's, it's in a very open hearted kind of way.
51:18
And, and in a way hope, hopefully it, it gives people
51:21
the space to, to express what they feel without feeling
51:27
they're going to be shut down or, or, you know, questioned too
51:38
intensely over certain points. There's there's definitely a
51:41
kind of laid back atmosphere when when we're when we're
51:46
chatting and painting. Yeah, I think so.
51:48
I, I think that that really comes across.
51:50
You've talked a bit about, you know, you well, first of all
51:53
your education going back years, training or whatever the the
51:58
correct word might be. And then the mentorship you were
52:01
talking about recently. You know, another wonderful
52:03
thing about what you're doing, what you're able to do is your
52:07
teaching of other people. You, you talked a little bit
52:10
about online application of that, but also you do this in
52:14
person. I mean, certainly most recently
52:16
at the Hope Freedom Festival, you know, you ran a sort of
52:20
class there. Just just tell me sort of a bit
52:23
a bit more about that and sort of where that goes where that
52:25
takes people. It's funny because I, I wanted
52:30
to start a group for, for awake artists or, or people who want,
52:37
wanted to learn to paint, but we're also aware of what's going
52:41
on because I think there's so many parallels and I, you know,
52:48
because essentially drawing, drawing is about truth.
52:52
You know, even, even even abstract art has to have an
52:56
element of truth to it. Otherwise it's just pointless.
52:59
And you know, when we're drawing just in the very active looking,
53:08
we're trying to look completely objectively at what at the
53:11
subject like that. That's how you get a good
53:15
drawing. If you if you have preconceived
53:18
ideas about what you're drawing, they will taint what you're
53:22
drawing. So one of the first things that
53:25
you might do or, or a very common lesson when you're
53:29
learning to draw is to, and it's what I did at, at hope with the
53:34
students was to have a reference photo.
53:37
And we, we tried to draw it. It was a face, a portrait.
53:40
And we drew the face and then we turned it upside down and then
53:46
drew it again. And what that does it, it tricks
53:49
the brain into not thinking, oh, that's an eye or that's a nose,
53:54
That's a mouth. I know what an eye looks like.
53:56
It's a circle with a dot in the middle.
53:59
I know what a nose is. It's 2 lines and then two
54:01
nostrils and a, you know, and when you flip it over, you just
54:08
see, you just see what's there. You just, it's light and shade
54:13
in different patterns and you're not thinking this is an eye or
54:17
this is a nose. And that is essentially I think
54:22
what the journey is, the journey that we're on in our community.
54:28
We're trying to see what's there regardless of what we've been
54:32
told. Now that can be from both sides
54:36
because there is clearly disinformation put out there on
54:40
both sides. And we have to be, we have to be
54:45
really astute and, and really discerning.
54:48
Otherwise it just gets very messy and, and, and we're not
54:51
looking at reality. And if we want to look at
54:54
reality, if we want to know what reality is, which I would guess
54:57
is pretty much what everyone's really aiming for, we want to,
55:00
we want to know what's true, you know, we want to know what's
55:05
true. And so a lot of those, a lot of
55:07
those skills are part of that. And I, and I think that's so
55:12
yeah, with, with the interviews, that's my approach.
55:16
I just want to know what's there, you know, And sometimes I
55:20
throw in my thoughts and, you know, we have a discussion.
55:23
I mean, one thing that comes up a lot, and this is my own thing,
55:28
is the Flat Earth debate, right? And I, and it's, and it's not,
55:33
it's not that I'm overly concerned with the shape of the
55:36
Earth. I really, really I'm not.
55:40
But I think what the Flat Earth debate raises what, what, what
55:43
it shows us is, well, it raises a lot of points, whether you,
55:50
whether you're sympathetic or not, it's certainly a very
55:55
divisive topic. And for me, a bit like earlier
56:04
when I said things will change when people start speaking out,
56:07
I think things will change. Another, another big key in, in
56:14
the, in the, in getting things to change is people not being
56:17
attached to ideas either side, you know, So when we, when we
56:24
wake up or when we realise there's an agenda, I think, I
56:29
think it's quite easy to get sucked into a second matrix.
56:33
And I think there's a lot of, a lot of holes dug for people to
56:41
explore, which might not be that productive.
56:43
Now, I'm not, I'm, you know, I'm not talking specifically about
56:46
Flat Earth, but I think, you know, I've had some guests who,
56:51
who are sympathetic with Flat Earth and, and some aren't.
56:54
But why I bring it up is because I think it really shows it's a
57:02
good, it's a good way of, of, of testing how we can communicate
57:07
with each other. And if we can have an open
57:11
hearted dialogue with people that we disagree with within our
57:15
community, if that's how we see it, then we've won.
57:19
Because then when we go outside and try and talk to people who
57:23
are just completely or not completely, but you know, who
57:27
are, who may be looking at stuff for the first time.
57:30
We're armed with tools, we're armed with skills that we've
57:36
learnt in our family, in our tribe.
57:39
You know, we've tested, we've, we've tested ourselves.
57:41
We've, we've learnt how to be calm and open minded even when
57:47
we disagree. And we've learnt to, you know,
57:49
all these things. So a lot of the conversations I
57:53
have that's that's definitely a part of it is how do we learn to
57:58
communicate in an open hearted way, perhaps when we disagree
58:02
without being attached to ideas, looking at things like the
58:07
drawing, what is really there not being attached and all these
58:11
things are just really important for me.
58:13
They're as important as what's the, what you know what, what it
58:19
says in this government paper or that what does this legislation
58:22
say and what, what, what's, what's the agenda behind this
58:25
next political move or whatever? Because there's always going to
58:30
be stuff out there. There's always going to be
58:31
deceit in whatever form. But if we can learn to be
58:37
grounded and solid and and and flexible and open hearted and
58:43
open minded, then we've cracked it almost, you know, that that
58:49
really is that. I think it's just so important.
58:51
It's absolutely beautifully put, Jake, and I think that will have
58:54
to be a great note upon which to end.
58:57
I think we need add, add nothing to that.
59:00
Very profound and very well articulated.
59:03
What I would like to do though, is to remind people first of all
59:07
that what we've been talking about is the 1000 Words podcast,
59:09
which is going to come out on the UK column website soon.
59:12
So please keep your eyes peeled for that.
59:15
But also, if, as I hope you will have done, an interest might
59:20
have been stimulated in the idea of having your portrait painted
59:23
by Jake, then I would encourage you to consider that or to
59:28
spread the word and, and suggest it to people that you know that
59:32
might want to do that. So with that in mind, Jake,
59:34
where would you direct people to have a look at your work and to
59:38
find out a bit more about what you do do as an artist?
59:42
Well, fortunately my name isn't that common.
59:44
So if you, if you put it into your favourite search engine,
59:48
Jake, Fern, Fern, you'll probably you'll, you'll find me.
59:52
I think I've started the sub stack, which is really nice
59:55
because that's combined everything.
59:57
It's got 1000 words. Righteous Brothers got my
1:00:00
portrait chair. But if you can't find that, just
1:00:04
just go to jakefern.co.uk. Perfect.
1:00:11
And and again, just a quick reminder, that UK column is only
1:00:15
funded by donations and indeed memberships from those that do
1:00:20
subscribe. So if you would consider doing
1:00:23
that, we'd be absolutely delighted to have you on board.
1:00:25
But thank you very much indeed for listening.
1:00:27
And Jake Fern, a massive thank you for joining me on what's
1:00:31
been a phenomenally interesting interview and we'll really look
1:00:34
forward to the podcast starting soon.
1:00:37
Thanks. Jake, thanks, Charles.