Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #197: MAHA MANIA: Are We Repeating the Low-Fat Fiasco? (Part One)

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Episode #197: MAHA MANIA: Are We Repeating the Low-Fat Fiasco? (Part One) · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: The huge UP uh ultra-processed food uh movement really got rolling when big tobacco, the big tobacco companies started making them.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Until then, food was food.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Food companies were food companies, but when when tobacco kind of went out of tobacco and wit, I mean that those those folks, the big tobacco companies for decades had become biochemical engineers to manipulate the vapors, the taste, the uh the texture of of you know tobacco.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: And when when tobacco kind of lost its edge in the country and got hand slapped, uh these guys started looking for other things to do.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: And once they really, you know, Philip Morris and these big outfits started entering the food system, they brought all that tobacco manipulation knowledge to the food system.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone, I'm Joel Salatin with my co-host, Dr.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Cena McCullough, on another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're going to focus a little bit on some current events and uh a new study, some new studies that Cena's found.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Both of us, actually, uh unbeknownst to ourselves, uh have been have been digesting a little bit this new um Maha, the Make America Healthy Again Commission report that was just released on, let's see, that was uh released on Thursday, May 29th.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was it uh or it sometime that week uh released there, not sure exactly the day, but it was it was uh based on executive order 14212, dated February 13, 2025, in which President Trump asked basically uh RF Robert F.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Kennedy Jr.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: to uh convene a commission to take a look at childhood um childhood sicknesses and kind of give a uh an official you know Maha White House uh report.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um and so uh Cena and I both unbeknownst to ourselves um were kind of trying to look through this and digest it a little bit.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And um so so Cena, I I can start with my initial observation.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: You can add some of your things.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: My my initial response to this, and it's it's as you can imagine, is fairly lengthy, but um I am thrilled that the kinds of questions and issues being brought up in this have literally been whatever, you know, pushed under the rug, if you will, for way too long in our country.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, 40 um just give you some statistics, you know, 40% of children have one chronic health condition.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: 40% of children have a chronic health condition.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's crazy, seeing it, don't you think?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's just nuts.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if we if we had that kind of sickness in our animals, we'd be out of business.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it's crazy, but you know, I think it we're becoming almost immune to it, um, some of us, because we it's common.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sick is the new norm now.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just common to walk around and have children have all these you know health conditions.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know any family personally that doesn't have at least one child who has some kind of chronic condition.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's sad, it's really sad.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: But again, we've kind of adapted to this now.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is our new norm.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, it's kind of like when, you know, when these when these things happen, they're all around us, we live with them every day, we just assume, okay, well, this is just the way it is.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and we I mean, it's one of the reasons I wrote, folks, this ain't normal, you know, is because of the abnormality of our day.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, another one, 75% of our young people are ineligible for military service due to some sort of either physical, mental, or emotional impairment.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, 75%.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I mean, seeing a historically cultures that couldn't defend themselves ceased to exist.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was gonna say this is devastating for just the security, a few future for security of our nation.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: If I mean, if you can't even defend yourself, then there goes the republic.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, yeah, there goes everything.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, here's another one 70 percent of calories today consumed are from ultra-processed foods.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: One 100 years ago, not a single calorie, zero, were from ultra-processed food 100 years ago.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this doesn't shock me at all.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because I'm around kids all the time.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what you see is, you know, mom, I think today, too, in in my observation is that a lot of families are on the go a lot, right?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're even homeschool families were like racing to here, we're going to this, we're going to story time, then we're going to soccer, and then this other kid has football or drama club, wherever we're racing, we're on the go a lot.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so convenience foods become a lifeline for a lot of these families, right?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: You need something quick and easy.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's pre-packaged is ideal, right?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's even less that you have to worry about and less about um about the food going bad.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and so it becomes a snack bag full of these ultra-processed foods.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And because your neighbor's doing it, right?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody else in your homeschool group or your classroom is doing it, you don't see it as anything that's not okay, right?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: You don't you don't feel like a bad, bad parent, even because everybody else is doing it.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I know you're gonna, you're gonna later in the program, you're gonna drill down a little bit on the on the what are known now as the UPFs.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's the you know, ultra-processed foods.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, here's another one.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: 95% of all dietary all official government diet dietary guidelines um advisory committee members are tied to either large food companies or pharmaceutical companies.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: 95%.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's almost 100% of the advisors who sit on these, you know, these committees that recommend, you know, here's what we need uh for dietary guidelines, are are bought and paid for by uh the the big food and pharmaceutical conglomerates.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we've talked about that on this program before too.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think that was for the last commission.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: This new commission, there's a less known bias um that was reported by the U.S.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right to Know, but it's still the majority of these, you know, committee members have these ties, direct ties or indirect ties to um to industry and big eye.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's we're really getting what what we've created.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're we're we're now reaping the consequences of what we have allowed.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh here's another one.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: 90 percent of all medical costs, all medical costs in America, 90 percent are tied to chronic disease, not infectious disease, but chronic disease, and the largest uh the largest part of that is due to diet.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And the report says the report says that.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, they're really tying diet to this chronic and then the incredible uh cost of medical.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and I would submit that that medical cost is largely to manage the conditions, right?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: This is not we don't do preventative, so yeah, this is just to manage we don't do cures, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're managing all these conditions and it's it's bankrupting us.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, here's another one.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, every 10% increase in ultra-processed foods consumption, every 10% increase in ultra-processed food consumption creates a 14% increase in all-cause mortality.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll actually see, so when you look at the scientific literature and the individual studies, you'll see a huge range happen.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: So uh for type 2 diabetes, for instance, a 10% increase in ultra-processed food can result in anywhere between a 12% increase in risk of type 2 diabetes to a 25% increased risk of type 2 diabetes.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just for a 10% increase in um calories coming from ultra-processed food.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: So anywhere between 10 and 25% increased risk.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine that, Joel?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: You increase your calories from processed food by 10% and now 25% jump in your likelihood of getting type 2 diabetes.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm so you know what what will it take for people to just instead of craving that bag of Doritos to look at it as if it's as if it's a poison.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean, uh and and and listen, you know, hey, I've eaten a Dorito.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, good grief, let's, let's uh, but I I I'm I'm as this stuff comes out, I'm finding myself more and more not laughing it off.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not okay.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I know you you and I have talked about that.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: You've you've ribbed me a little bit, you know, my 80-20 and all that stuff, but but it, you know, you you start seeing this.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna pull the I told you so car, Joel.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: I would never do that to you.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like Yeah, yeah.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Here here's here here's here's the last one, this little list that I have.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um to um that the the huge UP uh ultra-processed food uh movement really got rolling when big tobacco, the big tobacco companies started making them.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Until then, until then, food was food.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Food companies were food companies, but when when tobacco kind of went out of tobacco and wit, I mean that those those folks, the big tobacco companies for decades had had become biochemical engineers to manipulate the vapors, the taste, the uh the texture of of you know tobacco.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And when when tobacco kind of lost its edge in the country and got hand slapped, uh these guys started looking for other things to do.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And once they really, you know, Philip Morris and these big outfits started entering the food system, they brought all that tobacco manipulation knowledge to the food system.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and and it was just good for me to to see the report, you know, start to start to to just verbalize these linkages, you know, that that that we all we all kind of you know, you sit around and you, well, you know, how did this happen?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: How do we get to where we are, you know, and and so this this report I think is just um is really groundbreaking at this level to have this amount of clarity and precision put in the discussion.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we did an entire podcast on the role of big tobacco in developing these, um ushering in these ultra-processed foods.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I I mean I echo your sentiment to this point that I felt like as I was, you know, perusing through this report, it was almost a summary of things that we have talked about on this podcast, right?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was it was affirming, and I felt like, oh, we're we're finally being heard, right?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody is hearing what we are saying, and it's at the level that it's in front of the the president's eyes, you know.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that that was the good part behind the report.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: So so so I'll I'll I'll jump into the to my part of the bad part, if you will, and then and then let you run with it for the kind of the rest of the program.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: So there at the at the early part of the report, there are four four basic arenas uh that they identify as areas of study or or areas to that that they're looking to uh make policy changes and and and uh kind of identify.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the first one, which to me, that to me this was the uh the most profound sentence in the whole report.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, American farmers must be put at the center of how we think about health.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now now think about that, think about that for a minute.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: American farmers must be put at the center of how we think about health.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And as soon as I saw that, I I looked at the rest of the report, page after page after page, and I'm looking, I'm looking at, okay, so where's the farmer element in this?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what, Cena?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Surprise, surprise, it ain't there.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: That report does not say a thing about concentrated animal feeding operations.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't say it and and it in me, in my view, it goes to great lengths.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And remember, one of the authors is Brooke Rollins, the new Secretary of Agriculture.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, the the the the names on the on the top of this are luminaries.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's RFK Jr., it's Brooke Rollins, it's Lee Zeldon at the EPA, it's uh uh you know uh Bodicaria, you know, it's it's it's these are luminary names.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and it it it it was clear to me through the report that they jumped over hurdles to never even insinuate that there are good farmers and bad farmers.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and I can tell you, Sina, in my career here, if there is one thing that makes me vilified, it is when I dare to say there are good farmers and bad farmers.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: See, I think there are.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are good farmers and bad farmers.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I think failure to differentiate the two um is is just well, it's not only it's foolish, it's it's detrimental, it's detrimental to the overall discussion of health.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if if we don't say there are good farmers and bad farmers, or or or I don't know, that that sounds personal.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Good farming and bad farming.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: There are good farming protocols and bad farming protocols.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: If we're afraid to say that, we're forever on this treadmill uh or or confusion of, well, you know, what what it what is health?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and for this report to say American farmers are at the center, must must be put at the center of how we think about health.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saying, amen, preach it, but then I'm saying, well, but American farmers, as if, in other words, again, it's generic.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: All American farmers must be put, well, some should and some shouldn't.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Some American farmers should be put at the center of how we of how sick we are.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, not how healthy we are.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, so uh to me, the the glaring and obvious uh weakness in the report is failing to address good farming and bad farming.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now they did bring up the the federal crop insurance programs, right?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: The subsidies.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: I see a short paragraph on that, traditional field crops versus specialty crops, where they point out that historically the federal crop programs have primarily covered field crops like wheat, corn, and soybean, uh, with much less support for fruits, vegetables, tree nuts, and nursery plants.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they pointed out um the very small amount from the 2018 farm bill, 0.1% that went for um subsidies for fruit and vegetable tree nuts and support for organic foods.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: So they did point, at least they brought that up, right?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now this this isn't saying what they're gonna do about it, right?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's to come later, but at least that I was excited to see that at least that one paragraph was in the report.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Who what are they gonna do about it?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: We will find out, right?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's August.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is it August that we're gonna find out?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um like the the prescription that comes out of this.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you're right.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, aside from pointing that out, I'm you know, I didn't I haven't I didn't see anything and I I didn't I didn't see concentrated animal feeding operations.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: That phrase I don't think is even in the report.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm searching it right now, nothing comes up under I I I don't think so.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um I again I I ski I scanned the whole report and KFO's not in there.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and so so again, to fail to even mention that, you know, knowing what I know about how the American Farm Bureau Federation and the ag industry pushes back, I can imagine Brooke Rollins sitting there, you know, uh she she desperately wanted no um um disparagement put on on uh K Fos because you know that's uh then then it would have got opened up the whole Pandora's box that this report is trying to starve us all out because we know we can't feed each other with compost and and and and pastured systems and that sort of thing.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um the the second of these four big kind of uh initial areas, the second is that uh American health care systems thrive when uh American health care systems, so so these were lofty goals.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: American farmers should be put at the center of how we think about health.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Number two, American health care systems should thrive when diseases and when diseases are prevented and reversed, not just when they're managed in a sick care system.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the fact that they actually use the term a sick care system.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and and you know, I I know that RFK Jr.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: and his cohorts have have literally developed that phrase kind of recently.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I I mean they're looking for bullet points too, you know, um sound bites.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh and sick care system is is poignant, it's profound versus healthcare system.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I think I I I couldn't agree more.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um but boy, when you talk about a big uh a big process to tackle, to reverse the incentives in our perverse healthcare system, to reverse the incentives from sick care um incentive to prevention and reversal incentive, that that's an inversion of the entire, you know, health insurance, hospital, it's it's it's an inversion of the entire system.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I love that though, because um, we all we all are incentivized, right?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: To do things, to have action.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: We need something to motivate us.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: And instead of motivating them, um, you know, using money to motivate them to get like 100% vaccine compliance amongst clients, for example, wouldn't it be great to see them, to see medical doctors, for example, starting to really dig into the available literature, in fact, of how you can reverse these chronic and autoimmune conditions, right?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because we we all have to be incentivized to do anything in this life when it really comes down to it, right?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's what's important and what matters to you.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: So if we could get them to start actually putting their focus and intentions on learning how to reverse these conditions and then motivate them to do that by giving them the monetary incentive incentives, the monetary, you know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um reward for each patient that has now been fully healed?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, isn't that a much better use of not of our tax dollars, but also their time?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And don't you think that they're gonna feel those medical doctors?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Won't they also feel a greater sense of purpose, right?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: And of value in what they are actually able to contribute.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: They will then go on to actually be healers instead of people who can help someone manage a condition that they know is gonna ultimately lead to their demise, they can actually help these people get a second chance of life.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine what that's gonna do to their overall quality of lives themselves.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, so I can't I can't help but think as I was reading this, how in our current system, how do you ever make this happen?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm reminded of as we in our early podcast, when we went back and and you you uncovered the history of the American Medical Association and the whole um you know Rockefeller Foundation, that whole uh uh conspiracy uh back then, and I'm using the word conspiracy, you know, loosely here, uh, but that agenda, if you will, if you don't like the word conspiracy, um and and how how medical care doctors, you know, back before modern times, um the their whole their whole emphasis was on um on curing things.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yes, they did, they did so so a lot of the early um medical colleges were were built up around some guru that figured out how to stop tuberculosis or whatever, and um and often used homeopathy or some other type of of curative agent.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and so this whole so so my question, Sina, is how do you ever how do you ever get to a proper incentive until you go to a free market uh uh you know a a more free market option?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I don't I don't I don't I don't know I don't know how you do it under the current you know under the current insurance system um you know unless unless you know unless uh underwriters started you know keeping track of you know medical costs in a business and and gave a business a big you know break if they had um you know healthier people whatever I I don't know but but I I just I just it it's it's a wonderful lofty goal I I totally uh uh get it.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: But we're so far away from a market-driven from uh uh what an outcome from from a positive outcome driven system that it just it just I I just don't see how you get it.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I definitely don't think it's something that would be turned around in one president's term, you know, for for for sure.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because you'd even have to, I mean, to really do it right, you know, to to really do it so that it is they're actually healing people and sustainable.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: You also have to then change what's being taught in the medical schools.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, that in and of itself is is a huge hurdle with all the funding and you know, the corporate and influen influence um from industry and whatnot.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, it's you know, as you know, that changed in the early 1900s and it's just gotten more and more um, you know, in the tentacles, as you will.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the whole perspective has to change because, like we said, it's sick care.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got to get them from um the media needs to change the message that they're sending out, you know.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: It would be great to stop advertising all these pharmaceuticals for, for example, but but the but guests that they have on media will have to change, for example, so that the narrative that starts coming out is that these conditions are all reversible.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Start sharing success stories.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: You have to shift the mindset of the American public and and and integrate that mindset into the medical schools so that the doctors who the the soon-to-be doctors understand that this this is possible and then they understand how to do it.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna have to change the entire curriculum because in large part, as you know, they're lucky to get one nutrition course, for example, let alone learn about herbals or homeopathy or any of these or colloidal silver.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you get banned now for saying some of these words.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, we got banned, we got a strike against us because I talked about a study talking about garlic's effect on cancer, that it can it can help um reverse cancer, and we got a strike against us.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna it will require all of this, all our information platforms, in other words, to be uprooted and redirected.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: So last week, uh Cena, I spoke at the um American Institute of Functional Medicine in uh San Diego, California.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: They have a annual, you know, it's it's their big, their big uh, you know, trade show, if you will.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh there were, I don't know what, 1,200 um um uh alternative thinking from nature past, homeopaths, functional medicine, uh, all these uh kinds of things.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and to be immersed in a room full of these people, and and it was just amazing.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, not every single person there was a medical doctor.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: There were RNs and stuff there as well, but uh it was it was amazing to talk to the handful that I did have conversations with, um, and how they they they literally came to a point where they abandoned, they essentially turned their back.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: They they abandoned the the paradigm, the worldview of the American Medical Association.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I'll just say it.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and and every one of them has faced the chance of having their medical license revoked, of uh you know, all these all these things.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um and it was it was pretty neat to to be amongst them, but it was daunting to know the the how few of them there are compared to you know the greater, you know, the great and there were there were some uh some pretty you know well-heeled people.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: There were people that had you know done their residency at Mayo Clinic, and I mean these were all these were very credential people, but they but they they woke up one morning and realized this is not working, you know, this is this is not working, and they went on a search of something else, and and they and now I mean the the um the joy, the optimism within that group of generally all of them, I mean it could be as far away as you know, red light therapy to whatever, but they had every one of them was just brimming with testimonials of people with you know cancers and diabetes and everything, and and people were getting well.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it wasn't it wasn't they were just in some sort of a remission.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, they were their their patients had had had completely overcome, gotten well.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and so the the the spirit of of positiveness and optimism was literally euphoric in the room.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and that's see, and that's the picture I was trying to paint.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, could you imagine having that joy in a Western medicine doctor's office, right?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because they now have been given this toolbox with this array of tools that they can use to help people heal.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: So imagine the this joyful radiance of a medical doctor.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And now imagine you're the patient going in to see a Western medicine doctor who is joyful and positive, and tells you, oh, you may have X disease, but we know how to heal that.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like how profound would that be for our culture in general?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: That would lift up so much fear, you know.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: But again, you have to incentivize people.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a lot more people, you know.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned there's there's a handful of people who have broken away from the system.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a lot more people than that who have woken up.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: But how do you get out?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times these people are either demonized, they're discredited.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they licenses are threatened to be taken away.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they get taken away, you know.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, what incentive do you actually have to break out of that system?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because at the end of the day, they're trying to put food on the table, just like the rest of us.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can't do that if you worked all your life and then you have your license taken away from you, or you're deemed this quack, so you can't survive in the free market, like or or you get a YouTube channel and they ban you.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: So where's your advertisement?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it is all that's what I'm saying.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: All this, the social media platform, all this has to actually change for what they want to do.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's an overhaul of this entire system, and that's why I'm saying it's it's you know, it it's listed in these documents as um it sounds like common sense and it sounds like all nice and pretty, but it's just like trying to change the farm bill.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many tentacles in here and weeds to pull that weeds to pull weeds to pull is right.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: So so the number three, the number three one here is artificial intelligence will allow us to push the frontiers of understanding disease to measure and reverse chronic illness.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Artificial intelligence must be used to push the frontiers of our understanding diseases to measure and reverse chronic diseases.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: That one there, I'm glad for your thoughts.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: That one there, I don't have a lot of thought on.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: I just I just almost oh AI, you know, I'm uh I'm just so I'm just worn out of AI scene.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about you, but I it's wearing me out.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, you know, it's funny because yesterday I saw an interview with uh Zachary Levi, you know, the guy who played Chuck, and um he was talking about AI and how it's replacing, it's gonna be replacing Hollywood, and then it's gonna, he's predicting, he read somewhere within the next five years or so, it will replace um it will replace all these white-collar jobs, and then it's gonna go down to the blue-collar jobs because we'll get bots and things like that.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so he's actually building, uh has built a studio in Austin, Texas, so that he can preserve Austin authenticity by um and and preserve jobs for actors and stuff, you know, by by producing these movies with real humans in them.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and so I started thinking about it and I'm like, you know, I mean, there there AI is it's already out there, right?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like we're gonna be able to stop that.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of health, we don't need AI to help us know how to reverse these conditions.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: We already know there's we're practitioners are already doing it.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: As we know, we've done a podcast on this show with studies published quite a while ago in the scientific literature documenting cases of all kinds of can these chronic conditions being reversed.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know, I kind of see this as the data, the information is already there.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: We already know how to do it, it's already being done.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: So this is kind of a way to slip AI in there.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it is part of Trump's agenda, is to um bolster AI.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's needed in this case.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, could it help?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh, you know, playing both sides of a coin here, sure.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: You can you can type stuff into AI now and get a diagnosis of things.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: So could it help automate things?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: But part of reversing a condition is returning to the rhythms of nature, right?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: It is returning to how God intended, it's not often achieved by bringing more technology in, like the we've talked about that on here, the wearables and whatnot that are made in these EMFs.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is not the way to actually reverse disease.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to get you back in touch with your intuition and and not have that superseded by a bot or you know the the thing the thing is about about the AI is that it um two things.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: One is the algorithms are only as good as the people who it's a machine.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, it's a machine, and it's only as good as the as the algorithm designers that that made it function.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so, as I've said, you know, in precision agriculture, uh AI in agriculture, you're never going to ask, uh, I have you know bird flu in my chickens, and what should I do?
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: AI is never going to tell you, uh, put them outside where they can get some green grass and some fresh air and some exercise, and uh, and they'll probably be okay.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's never going to say that.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so AI is going to be limited by the, you know, by the by the inputs.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: By the inputs.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and the algorithms, which are going to be paid for by the people who own and and stand to benefit.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now we're back to a perverse incentive, a perverse economic incentive to the kind of information that comes out.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing about AI is that if it goes awry, there's no one to blame.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's it's the end, it's the end of personal responsibility.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know, I uh the robot made me do it, or whatever.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, what do you when a when a self-driving car runs over a kid, you know, who who gets blamed for that?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and we're seeing this now.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is gonna be a a major issue of um, you know, uh, I'm I'm not responsible, you know, it's to where how many decisions are gonna be made to where there's no traceable, you know, font of responsibility, you know, for the decision that that was uh deemed to be uh improper.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Which is a really profound point, actually, since this document is designed to help um, you know, outline how they're going to reverse these conditions.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because as we've discussed, that step of when you take personal responsibility is where you empower yourself.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you need that in order to be able to take control of your life and your own health.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that is like the one of the first very first steps that you need to be able to reverse a condition because somebody can only help you do it, right?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like you, you have to do the steps to be able to do it.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: You have to understand which decisions you made in the past that got you to where you are, and then accept that responsibility so that you can turn from those, you know, and this is biblical, so that you can turn from those and and go on this new path that God has given you the opportunity to walk in order to achieve your second chance.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: You can't just hand over the responsibility now from some conventional medical doctor to some like AI system where there, like you said, there's there's just no accountability or authenticity, and also there's no intuition in there.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I people will argue that, oh, you can teach it that it will eventually learn it.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard people argue that it will eventually learn how to do intuition.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: It is different.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Intuition is God given, and it it is a key to healing, and you need that intuition as the patient and as a practitioner.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the more, let's say they're gonna use AI um to help the practitioners.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's outsourcing again, even their intuition over to um an AI machine.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so now they're gonna be instead of tap learning how to tap into their own intuition to help the patient in front of them, they're gonna be outsourcing to this machine.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting us further away from actually healing.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Intuition is very important in that patient practitioner relationship so that they can tap into your individuality.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, we're coming up with a cookie-cutter um system again, just this time replacing the medical doctor with with a robot.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if we if we would if we dare to go back to COVID, for example, uh would anybody ever ask AI, if anybody asks AI, should I take the jab or take hydroxychloroquine?
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: AI is never gonna tell them, hey, try hydroxychloroquine.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's never gonna say that.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: So when we so when we look at at his historical um, you know, the kind of decisions that we've had to make uh throughout our history, and we and we kind of reverse AI at, you know, well, what if we'd have had it back then?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: Every time you ask this question, to me, it it always comes up with the wrong answer, you know.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh, you know, uh if you ask AI, um is it better to I'm thinking about homeschooling.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that would be better than sending the kids to public school?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: What's AI gonna tell you?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's never gonna tell you, oh yeah, you know, we probably ought to just eliminate public schools, you know, and go to homes.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's never gonna say that.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Here keep going.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna type this into AI right now as you're talking and see what it says.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about homeschooling.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Should I homeschool or keep my children in public school?
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's thinking, it says, I'm thinking, I'm thinking.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is on chat GPT version three.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'll keep going.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you when it comes up.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's considering my options right now.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's why you're my partner in this thing.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I would I would never know how to how to do this.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the the it but while it's waiting, there there is one place I think AI has some some positive things, and that is to establish patterns.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: The ability to assimilate data, the ability to assimilate data and establish patterns, um, I think uh uh you know does does have some does have some potential.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, for sure.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's really good at like you said, looking at patterns.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you can feed it like a bunch of different studies, for instance, and have it tell you patterns and that.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's also great at so some people, well, I don't know if it's great at this, but it can write articles.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, some people have published books that were written um by AI, and some people can't tell the difference.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, and that's and we're in the beginning stages of of AI, you know.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: So um, okay, so it came up and it thought for 19 seconds, it said, and it gave me an answer.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and actually it's it knows I'm in Georgia.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it says this is a Georgia flavored decision guide.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's giving me a snapshot of my local landscape, including academics and ranking, um, the legality, the cost, social life.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like how do you decide?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's giving me hybrids and here's an action plan for the next 30 days.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so here's its conclusion, its final thought.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Public schools offer ready-made structure, homeschooling offers custom craftsmanship, both can build a sturdy education.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: The best choice is the one that matches your child's wiring and your family's rhythm.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the litmus test.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: If the idea of planning lessons sparks curiosity and fill trip daydreams, homeschooling may be a thrilling adventure if it triggers dread, but you're excited about supporting homework at night and cheering in the bleachers, public school could be perfect.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Huh.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's um That's better than I thought.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's better than I thought.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's better than I thought.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's not the first time I've you know encountered something that that has a a little more, you know, what thoughtfully nuanced than than possible.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: So um anyway, we'll we'll we'll leave that one.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: Number four, the last one.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we got farmers, we've got we've got the incentive of healthcare system, we got AI, and number four, the final one in the report is that the next 10 years we'll see a revolution in living standards and prosperity.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: Apparently they think the they think the Fed is gonna keep us um on an even keel and inflation isn't gonna go off the roof, and you know we're gonna be, we're gonna, we're entering a apparently they've they've bought into the we're entering a golden age.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um so next 10 years we'll see a revolution in living standards and prosperity while we understand how um to better manage the increased threats to our children's health that come from industrialization.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, increased living standards and prosperity will stimulate more industrialization.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so we need to better understand how to manage the increased threats to our children's health as we further industrialize.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and your thoughts, I'm just dying to hear this.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um, I mean, I I think it I think it is a um it it is a dubious assumption that we're gonna see a revolution in living standards.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: That that is a I think a dubious assumption in the next 10 years, you know, that's that's a that's a pretty uh good while.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and that that we're this is clearly uh the assumption is that we're gonna continue down the same path we're continuing, and if we do continue down the same path we are, how do we manage children, how do we manage children's health?
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in the same in the same path that we are in.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a fair question.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's a fair question.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um it clearly I don't think they are, I don't think that in this report that they are interested in saying we're not gonna industrialize more.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: They just view that as inevitable, and um and how do we manage health in light of that?
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be interesting to see.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I think I think that is the least precise and the weakest of the four that we've we've looked at.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it's also the most wordy.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, usually wordiness means that you're struggling to say something you can't figure out how to say.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was gonna say they're masking for, yeah, they're masking something there.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that that went to me.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of just glossed over that because I was like, that that's not very tangible to me.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't actually mean much, you know.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of feel-good, fluffy thing.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: Same impression here.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: All right, seeing it, we've got it, we've got a while left.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I know you've got some drill down on uh ultra-processed foods.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: So um um especially since that occupies such a huge part of this um of this report.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, tell us what you got.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what I wanted to bring up was there's a couple new studies, but also I want to kind of challenge the narrative here.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: And again, fully acknowledging this is we may get some pushback on this.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: This might be a little bit controversial, but I want to just kind of push your bounds a little bit, okay?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: Are you ready?
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I was thinking about, like you said, a great proportion of this report is targeting the ultra-processed foods.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, we don't even have an agreed upon definition of ultra-processed foods, okay?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what I'm thinking is I'm curious to see what their action steps are going to be against these foods.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: And what I don't want to see is having them um banned, right?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, and so let me say from the get-go, uh, you know, I'm not promoting ultra-processed foods, okay.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: And clearly when we're trying to reverse um chronic diseases, one of the first things we do is take out processed foods, okay?
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not like, oh yay, ultra-processed foods are good.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so don't take any of this to mean that.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I am questioning the procedures and um the rationality of what may lie ahead.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't want to see them ban them.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I even hesitate to just demonize ultra-processed foods as a catch-all category.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: So again, they have we have not created a uh accepted definition for ultra-processed foods.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there we often, including in this report, will use a NOVA classification system of four different categories of processed foods.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: So ultra-processed foods would be things like you know, hamburgers, pizza, um, processed chocolate, cakes, um, crackers, you know, things like that.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: But again, um no actual definition.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: So what happens is we're we're clumping all these foods together and just calling them ultra-processed foods.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, what happens if these claims are made that a lot of the childhood uh diseases and obesity and even adult chronic conditions are because of ultra-processed foods, like they're claiming in this document.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: What happens if they're wrong?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we saw this like in um Ansel Keys, right?
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about him a lot with his heart health hypothesis, and we demonized fat um as a category and also saturated fat for decades.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: And the literature now says that he was wrong.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, nothing happens to government when they're wrong.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who was held accountable when when that original heart healthy hypothesis was disproven, and now we're reverse reversing course on recommendations, slowly but surely, right?
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing happens when they're wrong, they're not really held accountable, unlike a free market.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead, Joel.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to jump in?
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: You you see, you got you got me all all I'm I'm all just on edge here.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm all excited about well, what else could it be?
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so uh okay, so and let me walk you through this my clunky thought process at this point, okay?
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm looking at the scientific literature, right?
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because right now our culture is all about, you know, uh show me the science, right?
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're even saying science says da-da-da.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, go and look at the studies, and I will include some links in this show description so people can look for themselves.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: Let's take type 2 diabetes, for example.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is one that they highlight.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: It the rates are increasing, and they in particular they're increasing in children.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: This used to be an adult disease, now it's in children.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: So if you look in the literature, there are several studies that will conclude the ultra-processed foods are associated with an increased risk of type 2 diabetes.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now there are also studies that show there is no association between ultra-processed food and type 2 diabetes.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: So those do exist in the scientific literature.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, and with no um revealed funding ties to big food, okay.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now, causality does not has not been determined.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: So there's no cause and effect, and the literature states this there's an association, there is no cause and effect relationship that has actually been established.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, from a scientific perspective, you cannot say that the ultra-processed foods cause these chronic conditions.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you look deeper into the scientific literature, some newer studies have looked at different types of ultra-processed foods.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: So they're starting to divide them out instead of clumping them into one category, they're starting to divide them out into subgroup variations.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: When you do that, these studies are showing some interesting findings.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, for instance, one study showed that um that uh savory snacks increase the risk of type 2 diabetes.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: But in this study, sweet snacks and pastries actually decrease the risk for type 2 diabetes, right?
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, go figure.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that that doesn't even make sense intuitively, but what I'm saying is that's what this study has concluded.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it is not the only one.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, by the way, these studies are looking at large populations, thousands and thousands of people over an extended period of time, um, you know, eight years sometimes.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, another study saw what we would expect that added sweeteners um to natural beverages would increase the risk of type 2 diabetes, that additives and emulsifiers increase the risks.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: But get this another study, this was the European Perspective Investigation into cancer and nutrition.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: What they saw was with artificially and sugar-sweetened beverages, beverages, you did in fact see an increased risk of type 2 diabetes, but you saw a decreased risk of type 2 diabetes with ultra-processed cereal.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so the picture that the scientific literature paints is very murky.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's not this clear-cut thing.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: And as we're teasing out the different categories, we're seeing a lot of these nuances.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: Another study that has come out that I think Joel, you're gonna love this because you know how you and I keep harping on the fact that these agencies keep approving ingredients like pesticides, for instance, or you know, food ingredients.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: They keep approving them based on research that's done on a single ingredient, right?
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: We've both talked about this, but but they're never applied as a single, they're always they're always a cocktail.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're always a cocktail.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so now there is a study that has just come out, and they're claiming this is potentially the first study to do this.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: They're analyzing mixtures of additives in our food.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so so first before I jump into that study, let let's let's paint the picture.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: How is it possible that some of these studies are showing decreased risk if you're consuming certain ultra-processed foods, but increased risk with other ultra-processed foods?
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, when we're doing these studies, there's a lot of variables that they can't really control.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, macronutrient content of your diet, how much protein, carbs, and fat are you actually consuming?
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: They're not actually controlling that.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: These are in large part observational studies based on dietary recall.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're you're not able to control activity level.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the age range may vary widely, and people, children versus elderly may have a different metabolic response to ultra-processed foods.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um if we they also don't know if glyphosate, for example, or other chemicals were on these foods, right?
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: They're not they're not actively measuring what's what are the adulterants, as we would say, on these foods that may be contributing to these negative consequences of ultra-processed foods.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, similarly, the role of microplastics.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: We know that your consumption of microplastics tends to increase when you eat these ultra-processed foods from the processing and also the packaging of these foods.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, how are those affecting your overall health?
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: How are we going to tease that out from the ultra-processed food itself?
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, how do the chemicals react when they are combined together?
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that leads me to that new study.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: This one was a large-scale observational study that published in the Public Library of Science.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was just recently published.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: And what they did was they wanted to look at what is your increased risk of type 2 diabetes when you ate a combination of food additives.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: And these combinations, Joel, are in everyday ultra-processed foods.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: So they did not pick obscure chemicals, they picked the ones that are common and they looked at um at actual people's diet who were consuming these foods.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: So they looked at over 108,000 adults.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: They followed them for about eight years, and they looked at dietary recall patterns that were the dietary recall was collected on multiple occasions.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: Based on their data, they came up with five most common mixtures of additives that people were consuming.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then they looked at the risk of developing type 2 diabetes.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: The most, like without boring you with the, you know, all the specifics of the study, the there were two mixtures that most commonly led to an increased risk of type 2 diabetes.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: One of these mixtures were um additives that are commonly found in processed dairy desserts, sauces, and canned broths.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: These were additives such as modified starches, pectins, guargum, kerogenin, poly uh polyphosphates, potassium sorbate, um, and xanthem gum.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and these are not uncommon ingredients.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you, I just challenge anybody, go into your pantry and just flip over the processed foods and start reading the labels.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: You'll often see, you know, guargums and different starches added to them.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and especially in these sauces and broths and desserts, you know, because of the function they have in those.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: The second mixture that resulted in increased risk of diabetes are additives that are commonly found in sodas.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: These are things like citric acid, which even look at your supplements.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times citric acid is put in supplements, okay?
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: So citric acid, sodium citrates, phosphoric acid, um, aspartame, sucralose, um, arabic gum.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: So again, we have another gum, malic acid, carnuba wax, um, aguargum, and again, pectins.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: So what they saw was sometimes sometimes these ingredients alone didn't pose an effect, but the additive mixtures did.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: So what they concluded was they detected signs of both synergistic and antagonistic interactions.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: Some additives enhanced the harmful effect of others, and other additives blunted them.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, in that second mixture that I mentioned that was commonly found in dairy desserts, sauces, and canned broths, they found six additive pairings that acted synergistically.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_00: So once you pair these additives together, the resulting damage was worse, right?
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: It made you more susceptible to develop a chronic disease.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then there were four of those additives that seemed to cancel each other out.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, what this means is the interactions between these additives are complex and they're very unpredictable at this point, right?
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: We we wouldn't have thought that some of these additives working together could cancel each other out.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: We tend to think of these additives as they're not natural.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you're consuming more and more of them, you're gonna get just harmful stuff happening, right?
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so another thing that they found was previous studies reported that artificial sweeteners and emulsifiers can damage the gut microbiome.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, food dyes can alter the mitochondrial function.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that was previous studies.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: In this study, they reported that those individual additives within the mixtures were not solely responsible for the damage.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: So they adjusted for each additive one by one, and the risk of diabetes didn't disappear.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that meant they concluded that the risk wasn't due to one or two chemicals, it was from the cocktail of chemicals.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the takeaway was a couple things.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: One, if you're trying to manage your blood sugar and to avoid metabolic dysfunction, right?
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: Which so um so dismanaged, um, improperly managed blood sugar doesn't just result in type 2 diabetes, right?
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_00: It could be at the root of any chronic illness.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're trying to manage your blood sugar and avoid metabolic dysfunction, it's not enough to just say, I'm just gonna cut back on my sugar intake, right?
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or like go sugar-free.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: You have to pay attention to the chemical combinations that you are adding to your foods.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: All right, like because a lot of that's the narrative now.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: Just stop eating so much sugar.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you have diabetes, well, it's the sugar, just stop eating it.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: And now we've had Dr.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: Chris Kenobi on and also um Nina Ty Schultz, and they both are saying it's not the sugar, right?
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: They're both saying the sugar consumption hasn't really changed.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is actually supporting that statement that maybe in fact we are completely demonizing sugar too much, and that we should be looking at these combinations.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: It may be another reason why.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh, well, I won't go there next.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: Let me do this train of thought before I jump around.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so then what they did was another study took the um tested those same food additive combinations and they tested them on instead of in humans and looking at this observational study in humans, they tested them on human cells of the liver, colon, kidney, and nerves.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um, what they found was the same thing.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_00: Those same two combinations that I mentioned earlier damaged those cells.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, and even at low doses, these are at doses that um they are calculating the typical person is exposed to in a day.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: So they did not megadose these cells.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so what they're saying is that um it's the combination.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just dosage that we need to look at, which is often what regulatory agencies will measure, right?
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: They'll have they'll say at this dose, you can have this kind of chemical.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just the dose.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: We need to look at these combinations.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_00: This also brings it brings a little bit of um heaviness in a reality check with depending on what you're looking at, what document you're looking at, there are obviously thousands and thousands and thousands of chemicals in and on our food.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_00: If it is true then, like the study is saying, that you've got to look at the combinations to really figure out which of these foods are causing harm, how in the world would we do that?
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: You need studies of all these variable possible combinations of all these thousands of chemicals and in different quantities to paint the actual real picture of what's going on.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that may be um a place where you can add AI to help you do some of this sleuthing through the literature, right?
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and you know, and create patterns.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: But but it is it it tells you, and you know I hate to be heavy, right?
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: But this does tell you what we've gotten ourselves into with our current food supply by having the Subpar, shall we say, standards for what we will allow in our food.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it's not just the regulatory bodies' responsibility.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so the blame doesn't need to just go on them.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's also us and what we've allowed in our foods.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that we're not even paying attention to some of us are, but you know, we're waking up to it.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: But in large part, we have not paid attention to what they've been putting in our food compared to like Europe, who has a lot less of these chemicals in their food.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: And now we're reaping the consequences of us turning a blind eye.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: So another um I want to just point out one more quick thing because this it was fascinating to me, is that um, like I said, they did dietary recall.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is another reason why we're seeing some difficulties in comparing these um studies.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and Joel, I just noticed the time.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I have time to cover this before you need to jump off.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_00: So let's do that one at a different time with a new technology that's come out um to help improve the accuracy.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: What I want to end on here is what I was thinking.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this is a rough thinking.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_00: What I was thinking is now that I've painted somewhat of a beginning picture for you of how complex the scientific literature really is and how inconclusive it is, what if we're walking into the same trap that Ansel Key did, right?
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_00: When it when Ansel Key set out with his low-fat hypothesis, I don't really think that he was doing something nefarious.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think he did he made lots of observations right after World War II, um, from different countries and whatnot.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and I won't go into them for sake of time, but he did come up with that theory based on observations and some early um some early though rudimentary studies, but they were studies.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think it wasn't the fairest thing.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't bought off like at the very beginning.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so, but he but it wasn't proven.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't have the information, we didn't have enough evidence yet.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then look what happened with that banning a whole food uh, you know, uh fat.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: And look what happened, we got sicker because of that.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: What if they're setting us up for the same thing, even though I'm not in favor of ultra-processed food, as you know, what if we're demonizing this whole category, just like he demonized all fat initially, we're demonized this whole category, and yet we what if we're wrong?
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: The studies are already showing there's caveats.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and you know, now we're back to the beginning of our program today, American farmers.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_01: What if what if the real demon is, for example, glyphosate, you know, and it's and it's how glyphosate interacts under under ultra-processed processing uh that that that makes it you know twice as bad.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, name name your name your thing.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um fascinating, Cena.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's um, wow, that's uh that's a fascinating thing.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: We definitely need to dig into this more.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_01: We are out of time for today.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and um and and I hope everybody's got their interest peaked on this.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you're our you're our um our our compass on this, and but but it is a it is a fascinating thing, and and you know, hopefully that this this report will not send us down a um that that we won't be so eager for an answer that we that we fail to see the nuances in our eagerness to find answers.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's your that's your cautionary point in this.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, because what they're I think what they're gonna go down is well, now we need to change the dietary guidelines, you know, away from keys toward this.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_00: We need to change the labels on the food, we need to change school lunches, change what we feed to the military and whatever.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_00: And look, again, I'm not saying ultra-processed foods are great, you know, but I'm saying we shouldn't demonize all of them.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_00: We should know what we're doing before we jump in like Ansel Keys did, and we end up 50 years down the road from now, being like, oops, we were wrong.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because how do you walk that back?
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think we should, because we don't have time, you know, let's develop this more in the next podcast, and I'll bring in the other study.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: But the ultimate solution is going to be the government should not be creating dietary guidelines, right?
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we could talk about that more, but that that is my ultimate solution.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do not give them the power and authority to do that.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we can talk about what that system would look like if we took that from the federal government.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we've said we've said uh for many times for a long time, you know, we'd probably be a healthier country if the government had never told us what to eat.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and just let everybody kind of make their own decisions.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um That's right.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: We've got it, we've got to close now, but um, but uh you know what's our community question?
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh our our community question is um is are are you going to still feed Doritos to your kids?
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know I think the real question is Joel, are you gonna do your 80-20?
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Fair enough.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but uh yeah, uh a great question, I think, is so so what uh what what UPFs, uh ultra-processed foods, um, you know, maybe maybe uh maybe it'd be good to have a call for brand names.
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Which brand names uh do you just think are poison and which ones do you let slide?
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_01: That might be an interesting one to to to have folks uh respond on.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, we are out of time.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you all for joining us, and we will look forward to visiting with you again next week.