Latest / Every Pawprint! Every Story! / Maple, Squirrels, and the Life We Fall in Love With

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Maple, Squirrels, and the Life We Fall in Love With · Every Pawprint! Every Story!

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, everybody.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to another episode of Every Paw Print, Every Story.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: I am your host, Dan Popovic.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: And for those new listeners, what this podcast is about is simple.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Every paw print has a story.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: They have a story to our heart.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's really a a fun episode where we invite families in to talk about their pets.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: To you know, you may laugh, uh, you may cry, uh, but hopefully you're getting inspired and you feel most importantly, supported.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm really excited today to welcome a special guest.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's a it's a topic that we haven't really talked a lot about yet.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we've talked about pet loss and pet grief, but um, and we'll kind of get into that.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: But um, Jenny, welcome to the show today.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much for inviting me.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: Where and where are you at again?
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: You're in the UK, right?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're in the UK.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: We're in Manchester, which is the home of football as we call it.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I believe you guys call it soccer over there.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, so uh the home of uh football, Manchester, England.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we've got the uh the World Cup, I guess, getting kicked off here soon.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: And the you know, my my town here in Atlanta.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: They're all excited for it.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll we'll see how the we'll see how that goes.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Same here.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um but naturally before we kind of get into more about you and kind of what you're doing today, I always love kicking it off with how many fur kids do we have a part of the family today?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, part of our family today, we have just the one, the beautiful Maple.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: She's a cava poo and she's six years old, and she brings a lot of joy to our family and our extended family as well.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: You said maple?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Maple.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Maple, I love it.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh okay, well, that leads me to my next question.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: How did Maple's name become do you know?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a funny story because it was to do with the colour of her fur coat.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: So she was um a really deep red colour that reminded us of the colour of a maple tree leaf.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And now she's completely changed colour over time.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't know at the time that um a Kabapoo's coat typically changes colour as they age.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: So actually, the name doesn't quite suit the colour of her coat now, but um the name has stuck obviously, and we're very happy with the choice.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: She suits the name for whatever reason.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, when you say suit the name, what do you mean by that?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I'm thinking through, I'm thinking of maple, I'm thinking of Fall.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Is she like uh obviously so female, right?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: She's a female, yes.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, is she relaxed, subdued, loves leaves, or what's kind of what's kind of her temperament?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we live in a fairly windy part of the world, and and our back garden has lots of very mature trees.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the the wind and the leaves are uh uh not the best of combinations for maple.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: She tends to bark at them a lot.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: And just a few months ago, we decided maybe we needed to do a little bit of retraining, even though she was six years old.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she likes to bark at the wind, bark at the squirrels, bark at anybody that walks past.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, we've done a little bit of uh retraining with Maple, trying to keep her safe when we take her off the lead and you know, model good recall, but uh it's still very much a work in progress.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: The minute she hears a squirrel or a rustle of the trees, she she can get very distracted.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say she's um lively, easily distracted, and um just as you think you've got the recall sorted and you're confident again to let her explore the world, she decides that no, we call it squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, and it's just poof.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so this is is is that like a common thing when you're on walks with her, or just naturally when she's in the backyard or both?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, very common.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, her favorite places to go for walks, or certainly my favorite places to go for walks, are typically where there's lots of mature trees, and wherever there's mature trees in the UK, there's typically lots of squirrels as well.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So there's always distractions on our walk, and uh, no matter how many treats I have in my pocket, she she uh she can be challenging.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: Is that I'm glad you mentioned that, is that kind of so kind of sticking on that, the the the training, yeah.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: What are what are like some of the tactics you're doing to kind of curb curb that behavior for lack of a better term?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean the training that that I've been given at the moment is to make me more interesting than everybody else and the squirrels.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and she's very food-driven, so that often means a pocket full of treats and uh lots of positive reinforcements and and lots of you know, lots of little um shouts of recall to get her back and and high reward when she does.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're doing pretty well.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the trainer signed me off as done and you know, go back into out into the wild, but yeah, she's still testing me a lot.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And every now and again I do um put the lead back on and just you know keep it sensible.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: And when we walk around our local park, um obviously everybody kind of gets to know each other, don't they?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because you end up in a cadence like I have a typical time that I wake up and a typical place I go for a walk and a typical you know route that I'll take with Maple.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you end up with the same people that you nod to and say hello to and have a little chat to.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: And whenever she's on the lead, it's like, oh, the lead of shame, the lead of shame.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because it means that yeah, she she to keep her safe, I've had to put her back on the lead, and her recall isn't good enough to let her go off um on her own.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: So we've had to find new places to take her for walks that are just a little bit further away from the roads that she seems remarkably attracted to.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I really, really do not want to go home with a lead and no dog on the end of it.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: That would be a very um unhappy end to uh what should be a glorious walk.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've uh yeah, I've seen that uh unfold a few times, and even with with uh Marley, um and yeah, it's definitely not a sight to see, and then it was interesting to see the impact on her too.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I didn't even think about that, but um not to go down that route.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: But um So in in keeping her safe, keeping her on lead, is it is it because she just runs off, doesn't come back, or she you're just fearful, yeah, she runs off, but she'll come back, but she's just not paying attention.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: She's very, very inconsistent with it.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: So she'll she'll be great for days on end, and you think we've got it cracked, we've you know, we're there.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then randomly she'll just decide that you know something was more interested and she'll bolt.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's terrifying when that happens because obviously, you know, where's she gonna go?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is she gonna be safe?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, we've all become a little bit cautious.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: We have um, you know, that when the children take for a walk, they've and they're adult children, they're not young children, but they've kind of come to the conclusion that it's far too stressful when they take her for a walk.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: They'll let mum be the one that lets her off the lead.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because I get the blame then if something goes wrong.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but they do test us, don't they?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it just makes us stronger, I rest I guess, right?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's probably a good thing.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: The the more they test us, the stronger we become.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um what was the I the breed again?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: You got you lost me, and I'm not sure if I've I'm familiar with the breed.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Spring.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: Spring?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: I can't recall what I've said that you mean.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh so well, I got Maple's the name, but like what what's her oh the breed, sorry?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it's sorry.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is uh we both say speak the same language, but we kind of both don't.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry about that.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Breed, she's a cavalio.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that's um a mixture of a King Charles Cavalier and a poodle.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we met both her parents, both her parents were were pedigrees of their own breed, but it's a it's a common mix in the UK anyway, is a is a cava poo.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason that that's so appealing to me is that I actually have really significant allergies to the majority of dogs and cats and horses.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's only since we've had the sort of introduction of these um hypoallergenic breeds that I've been able to enjoy, you know, being a pet parent myself.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's um it's just a wonderful thing to have, you know.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: I can guarantee in the mornings when I go down that Maple greets me with the sort of welcome that you know I don't think any human ever has.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you wouldn't they're consistent with that welcome.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's what they're they're consistent with the welcome and and the testing.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Now, do you have like fun um vacation spots or have you taken her to the beach?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: Does she love the beach or any fun stories around that?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, the very first time we ever let her off her lead, we drove to a place in the UK called Formby.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason this was so appealing is that the car park and the beach are sort of quite a significant walk.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we walked her through a forest to the beach and felt that was a great place, as this is a young pup to let her off her lead for her first experience of you know going for a for a run.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember I remember on the on the beach, she immediately decided to run up to an absolutely huge um dog.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and I I referred to her looking like a chicken nugget, you know, she looked like a chicken nugget, sort of snack-sized at this point.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just thinking, of all the dogs to run up to, this was the one.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, she she's quite fearless.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she's not particularly um friendly with other pets these days.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think as she's got a little bit older, she's just got a little bit like, Leave me alone.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so she'll have a quick sniff and then tends to move on, and she doesn't really play um with with other pets these days.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: My brother has um a cav as well, and they have a sort of a love-hate relationship when the two of them get together.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of, hey, this is my house, no, this is my house.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, but eventually they calm down and enjoy each other's company.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's funny.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, trips to the beaches.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think for us during lockdown, um, we actually bought a camper van um and we went on some adventures.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Me, my youngest daughter, and Maple went on a few adventures during that time.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we we thought it was going to be something that she really enjoyed, but actually, again, I wanted to be near the coast where you know, where the wind was again, that that wind that I was talking about.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it really sort of rocks the um camper van when it gets going, and she was not very happy.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: She howled like a a wolf for the majority of the time that we went uh on holiday in the camper van, kept us awake and kept the neighbours awake as well.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, that turned out not to be the one.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um go ahead, go ahead.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say we've never taken her abroad.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: If we holiday abroad, we we get a house sitter.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've never been able to sort of take her to the kennels.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: That would that's never been something that that I would have been comfortable with, and I don't think I'd have enjoyed my holiday if I you know felt that she was in an unfamiliar environment.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, whenever we're away, we get a living, um, and then she gets to you know stay in her environment and and be the queen of the house and get looked after on a one-to-one.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's how we uh still get abroad, um, and she still gets the love and cuddles.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it works for us.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: That makes sense, but yeah, because we just came back from a vacation now.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: We have three for our kids.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: We did board two of them, but we took our main boy with us.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he's 11, so it it's all about him right now.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I'm with you, man.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I part of my heart gets left behind when I'm because my I got a call from the doctor a day later, and uh you know, they were having problems with her through that because she was stressed out and anxiety, and oh my god, that just kind of ruined my vacation.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's difficult, isn't it?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: It is, yeah.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: Have you heard of uh this is gonna be a shout-out?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad you went there with the the travel and the abort the abroad.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um I had somebody on my podcast guys a month and a half ago.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: She has a company called Pause Abroad.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's specific, it's specific to pets pet travel.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: And okay.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you know, and I think she's in the UK, if I'm not mistaken, but it's phenomenal what she's doing where you if you're traveling by plane, she does everything for you.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe something to look at in the future.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Indeed, she can come away with us.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right now, she what she's seven now?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: She's getting on for seven, yeah.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Now, is this um is she the like specific breed that you grew up just in love with, or was there a different breed that maybe you you had a passion for and then it just evolved?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think again the the reason for the choice was the the temperament really and the fact that she was hypoallergenic.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um my brother actually bought the first um pet into the family, so to speak.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: So as when we grew up, because of my allergies, we didn't have any pets in our home, so our parents didn't have pets.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: But my brother um got a cavapoo, and she was such an amazing pet for sort of a new um pet owner.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we all kind of just watch from a distance and watch the difference that having a pet in a home can make because we we weren't familiar with this growing up because of my allergies.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: So in the end, after the kids had asked for for probably a couple of years, maybe even four actually, um, we sort of said, yes, let's do this.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And as I say, we've never looked back.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody adores Maple in our home.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the girls love her, I love her, she's she's the centre of of what we do, and yeah.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the first one.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: First one.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: First of many more to come, hopefully.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's the thing, isn't it?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Once you fall in love with a with a pet and open your heart to a pet, then it's just a a new experience.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And no, she's she's adorable, and it's interesting because she is six now, and and my girls start to say things like, I mean, she's still got plenty of life, healthy life left in her, hopefully.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the the girls say things like, oh, you know, she's six now, she's sort of potentially halfway through, and they they start to think about you know, that sort of um what do they call it, anticipatory grief.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: You can you can see that the girls are beginning to to think, oh, they don't think it about me, by the way.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm probably halfway through my life too, they don't seem to be worried about that.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: But Maple, they're very worried about.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a few months ago now, but my middle daughter, who's nearly 25, so this isn't a young child, but she came down really visibly upset.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, what's all, what's all what's happened?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, Oh, I had a dream that Maple died.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, gosh, you know, you didn't wake up and go, oh no, she didn't, she's fine.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: She was genuinely it she carried it with her, I guess as a concept she'd never engaged with before, and then sort of realized that oh, actually, given that I'm 25 and all been well, um I am going to outlive my pet.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and I began to think about it, and it and it's making me really sad.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just an interesting dynamic, isn't it?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: That because of their length of life versus our length of life, this ultimately, if you bring a a pet or a kitten or a rescue into your life, you're kind of opening yourself up, sadly, for for the pain that might follow.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: Will follow.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, yep, I know that all too well.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um now, in and I guess kind of sticking on that, it is uh you know, natural.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: I want to chat a little bit more about you know what you're doing today.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um because it is definitely a critical stage to your point in people's lives.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess before we kind of get into some of that, um what what led you into what you're doing today?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh an interesting one.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and obviously, if we didn't have Maple, we would have never even engaged with these ideas.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: But uh my cousin, my first cousin, is a vet, um, a very good vet, used to work for one of the larger sort of chain, what what we call corporate vets in in the UK, and had always had um a dream to open up her own independent vet practice.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it was on the offer of redundancy.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: She was like, you know what, this might be my opportunity to do what I've always wanted to do.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And in the meantime, between having enough money to open her vet practice and leaving the role that she had before, she started doing home euthanasia.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And she said that it be it was one of the most rewarding things that she's ever done.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: She said it wasn't clinically challenging, because obviously this is a very uh relatively straightforward procedure.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't clinically challenging and it wasn't the only work that she would ever want to do.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: But it was some of the most rewarding work helping families in the home to give their pet a really you know high-quality experience as their final experience on this on this earth.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when she'd finally saved enough money to open up her vet practice, she was going to close her home euthanasia practice.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, don't do that because it's such an important thing that you're doing that we could build on that and and look to really create an environment where every pet parent gets the opportunity to have this as an option should they want it.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly in the UK it's not the norm yet.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: The the the norm many, many years ago, a bit like um, I guess I'm making lots of assumptions here because we're in different countries, but in the UK, our doctors, I'm not about our human doctors now, would come to our homes.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: They would have a relationship with us and they'd come to our homes when we weren't well and they'd be on call, and you know, having the doctor come to your house wouldn't be considered particularly unusual.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Fast forward to now, doctors never come out to the home.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: It just isn't something that's done.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: No matter how unwell you are, you have to drag yourself to the doctor's surgery or or to the hospital.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: The idea of home visits just doesn't really exist.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it was kind of the same with um end-of-life care and euthanasia was often done in the home.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's changed and it's full circle, and it's unusual for vet practices to be able to release staff at short notice to go to go and support families.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it's become more normalized that it's done in clinic.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess we're looking to go back to the old way of doing things because typically a pet is happier in their own home.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's where they're familiar, familiar sights, sounds and smells, that's where you know that they've experienced the the love that they've had for however long they've been here.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and going to the home is typically better for the pet, better for the pet parent, and actually better for the vets as well, because it's, you know, our vet network, and we we've got a large network of vets now that cover the whole of the UK, um are supporting a family in the home, but they don't have a relationship with that family.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, you know, we're not their day-to-day vet.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: We're a new vet that's coming in to support them through this, you know, this sad time in the life.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: But because our vets don't have that emotional connection, it's just that little bit easier for them to help with this procedure without there also being a massionally um a massive emotional toll on them as a vet.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's a very, I guess what I'm saying is there's a very big difference between a vet supporting a family through euthanasia that they've had a relationship with for a decade, that's very emotionally challenging and much different than our vets going to your home to support you through something, um, but without having had that relationship before.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I know there's pros and cons, but at the end of the day, from that from a vet's mental health point of view, and and the vet's mental health is something that's been really massively flagged as an issue here in the UK, then this is something, a sort of emotionally uh a highly emotional procedure that can be done in a different way so that it's less of an impact to the vets as well.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, it it it it makes sense.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I like you said, there's yeah, there's widely debates on this, right?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: And pros and cons.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um I didn't get the opportunity to experience um saying goodbye.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and that you know, I I still think about that today, right?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, three three and a half years later.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I hear these folks with the stories that and they go the this route and they get that closure, they they get to say goodbye, and that's powerful.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um I even hear you know folks in the families talking about the feeling that their pet gave them permission.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I guess maybe sticking on that.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Walk me through a little bit of that with your experience in doing this, because like you said, that is it's a critical stage.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess the determination is already there.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's to your point, it's emotional.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's probably you're probably just the role you're probably doing is really more supportive, you know, humane and letting the family say goodbye.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: And interestingly, when we go to somebody's home, if they do have multiple pets, it also gives their other pets a chance to say goodbye as well.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because they get to come in afterwards.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: We did we typically would ask the pets not to be in the room for for the procedure itself.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: But once the procedure's finished we invite the pets in to have their little chance to say goodbye.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because can you imagine if if they're let's just call it a sibling pet for now, if their sibling pet just disappears, then they're they're they're looking for them, they're they're wondering where they've gone.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if actually they're able to come in and see and innately understand it it can help their grief as well.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it's another side that people don't always think about is that when we come to the home there is that opportunity for the wider family and for and for the other pets to sort of get not their closure but their understanding of what's happened.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's fascinating.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully I don't get too teary-eyed because this is definitely a a strong topic we're talking about but I it is isn't it it is a little triggering for a lot of people yeah well and yeah especially with experiences because you know it's resonating with what you're saying but that's fascinating too because I wouldn't have thought of that and um but to your point when we lost her it was a couple days later we saw Marshall looking for her because she was his world he taught she taught him everything and now we were freaking out on okay what kind of physical mental impact is this gonna have on him because we don't want to lose him so we rushed out to get um to adopt another fur kid to kind of distract that it helped yeah um but that's interesting so you you um it's interesting to you know allowing the other fur kids to come in and so you don't see any um impact on them afterwards from that positive impact in that they they can understand so instead of their their sibling pet just disappearing and then them looking and and wondering because they can't we can't tell them we can't explain to them but we can show them so that's um and one of the things that that I've done you you've talked about uh writing a book yourself we've wrote an ebook I'm not trying to say for one minute it's a full book but it's 25 pages so I think it's just about maybe a booklet.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And but it's an ebook and it's completely free and we've written it to really help um pet parents understand this whole process because it's quite a taboo subject you know it's quite brave of you to invite me on to talk about it because nobody really wants to acknowledge it or talk about it.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: But having spoke to hundreds and hundreds of families to help them through this one of the things that that I've begun to realise is there's a huge education piece needed around it.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: For example many many pet parents when you speak to them and say how do you think most pets see their end of days?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, do they die naturally in their sleep?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Do they need our intervention?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Do they need vet support most people you ask presume that pets are passing peacefully in their sleep but in reality that that really isn't the case and here in the UK around 92% of domesticated cats and dogs need a vet support to for for their end of life it it isn't something that occurs naturally or certainly not in a painfree way which is why we have the right to intervene because it's animal welfare to do so.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: But because there's that assumption people don't want to engage with the idea of making the decision they kind of want it to be taken out of their their hands and and often what we're finding is that they'll the pet parents are looking for that absolutely clear and definitive sign that the time is right.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And sadly it never really quite happens like that.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: And what will happen is that you kind of miss it and then it becomes critical and then we're receiving calls of can you come today and and I think we've written this ebook as something to almost read when you bring your pet home because ultimately if you bring a a pet into your life you're highly likely to be engaging in this decision and therefore rather than not talk about it or only talk about it on that final day when actually it's it's become critical if we can get ahead of it and have a bit of a plan I think we could make a real change in in how people think about this and and hopefully really have a positive impact on pets when we can help owners get a little bit ahead of it rather than um on the back foot with it.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what the ebook's about it's a gentle read it's not a heavy read.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just getting people thinking and giving them some facts as well like the fact that a very high percentage of pet parents are are going to need to engage in this decision.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: So let's have a think about it while it doesn't feel as painful.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I think about it for my six year old I'm engaging in the ideas of it but it doesn't feel like it's around the corner.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's that little bit easier to engage with as an idea.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: But if she was a real senior pet and it was the first time I was ever thinking about it, it might be much more challenging to to have those thoughts.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah we're we're we're doing a huge education piece to see if we can help um break this taboo because anything that's a taboo to talk about is often has a problematic impact because nobody's talking about it.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: So if we can start the conversations I think we can have a real ripple effect of goodness and and help um pet parents make you know good judgment around this really important topic.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah well like you said it it's hard it's a hard topic is like you said uh yeah you I you know I'll I'll agree to what you said earlier.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean um you know my you know Marshall's 11 he's a Doberman so we're on borrowed time I feel like and I think that breed typically lasts 10 years.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I feel like we have a few more years out of him and I'm my hope is yeah I as weird as it sounds for me to hear myself say it.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: I you know I wake up one day I walk downstairs and he's peacefully gone in this happy place.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's probably everybody's hope or I know I say everybody's hope isn't it yeah yeah um but it's fascinating the stats you know I I'll have to go look at what the stats are here in the States but um I'm curious though with that high percentage what's the common I guess what's the common ailment that you see that c causes this decision to happen I think it more than the the underlying ailment itself it often presents itself in dogs just no longer being able to for example walk and take themselves out for toileting it tends to be more around that the outcome of the underlying illness rather than the illness itself it just gets to the point where there's a quality of life issue.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right right and that quality of life issue often shows itself around not eating not enjoying food anymore not drinking which obviously is beginning to get very critical very quickly and struggling to to to walk you know often we'll we'll just have a a pet parent ring and say their back legs have gone and they they no longer you know have have use of of their limbs and or they're struggling to toilet or they're struggling to keep themselves clean.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: So these are outcomes as opposed to you know lots of different medical reasons can can give similar outcomes struggling to breathe you know struggling to catch their breath and and there's lots of um quality of life assessment tools as well we've got one on our on our website just to help um pet parents again sort of think about those questions and and are these beginning to have more bad days than good days you know these sort of of questions really and and again the ebook gently is discussing these topics and helping helping pet parents think about you know what does quality of life look like for my pet and and at what stage am I you know when when's right for them because it's never right for us we don't want to lose them.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right right when it's right for them.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah right yeah no that's yeah that's a strong point and I think to your point though what you said earlier quality of life because it's like yeah we don't want to lose them but at the same time is it fair to them that the quality's not there anymore.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: I know we're getting close to time.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well we'll definitely I'll definitely get links from you for these tools.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll definitely add that into the subscription for the listeners to go back and and find, learn educate themselves talking about all free tools.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: We we're distributing them for for the purpose of helping educate pet parents around this topic so they're all free tools anything you know like any you know you've talked about a lot um any like you any additional advice or things that you would say during this critical stage and what families should you know I don't know how they should prepare themselves, what they should think about.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I think it's being kind to themselves really often the the internal language they use when they make this decision is very harsh on themselves.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: They think they're doing a bad thing and that and that they they've failed somehow and actually the the gift of euthanasia and I know it's a really hard word for some people to to hear even the word but the gift of euthanasia means that we can ensure our pets have a a dignified you know final day um and it is a gift and it and it's figuring out how to use it and when to use it.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the the most challenging thing for everybody that we speak to is the when.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: But often in reality it ends up being a reflection of oh just left it that little bit too late.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes their grief just that little bit harder because they they kind of missed it a little bit.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a a mantra in the UK and I've no idea whether it's over there as well but it's sort of um that the mantra is better a week too soon than a day too late.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: And the the idea being that you know I I think because I I speak to to pet parents on a daily basis right and it often that sort of oh we we're just like we're just hoping for another week we're just hoping to get through the weekend and it and it's that constant sort of moving of the goalposts from a quality point of view with quality of life point of view because they're they're struggling with the decision.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it and it's it is that you know just trying to get slightly ahead of it which is so much easier said than done.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: It isn't an easy call to make the when yeah you know on once someone said I think I'm gonna have to get involved here this isn't going the sort of passing peacefully in our sleep kind of way I can kind of see now that I'm gonna have to step in and then it starts to get more about the when and and it's impossible to advise anybody really on on the best day.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's just kind of the day before the day it was too late well who knows when that is yeah it is a very difficult judgment call and that's why we we're saying think about it beforehand have a plan um engage with the idea of quality of life long before it's an issue you know what are the things for example when I think about maple that I would consider the wrong side of quality of life and and trying to get ahead of that so when I begin to see it I I I have a plan.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not perfect it's it's a very very difficult judgment call and we completely understand that.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: So are you guys in some of these conversations in in the beginning is it kind of a lot of counseling guiding supporting in the beginning until that final decision is made but then sometimes you're get you're getting called last minute and the final decision's already been made and it's probably maybe it should have been made ago so it sounds like you guys are probably coming in on both types of we are we are coming in on both on both sides but I would say it's geared it's weighted more towards people that that are leaving it very last minute and asking for help today.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: And we're very much geared up to be responsive.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know we we aim to um secure a vet appointment within 20 minutes of you ringing us if it's urgent for that same day um and that gives a lot of comfort to somebody that's ringing in distress for us to have got back to them within 20 minutes and say we've got you somebody's either on the way or they'll be there in a couple of hours or we can be there tomorrow.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then we've got them you know we don't just perform the procedure itself we partner with um pet crematorians so that they can also have that whole um sort of end of life piece we we organize it all for them so that they don't need to give it another thought really um and it allows them to focus on on their pets and and you know spending that last day those last few hours whatever it might be and just little touches as well afterwards we'll always send a handwritten card and we'll inform their vet practice so that they don't have to do that.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know we we try and look at the the holistic thing and help as much as we possibly can.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then we also signpost them for um aftercare and bereavement and grief support as well because I I think in many cases it hits as hard if not harder than the loss of a human family member.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah no that that's pretty powerful too the you know the support afterwards so that's phenomenal.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well I know we're I think we're at the end so this yeah I I just want to thank you for coming on the Pat podcast very powerful subject topic conversation um yeah we will we will definitely get your information the links these these workbooks or let's call them tools to kind of help help prepare and educate folks um yeah and the ripple effects of that education I think could be absolutely huge and you know we already know that we're we're helping pets out there but I think um even if we we've just helped one family think differently even for example somebody that helped us put together the the ebook the person that was actually it was written by myself but I'm not um graphically orientated at all I needed somebody to make it look pretty and the person that did that read the content at the same time and they rang me and said do you know what this really hit hard I've realized that I've been burying my head in the sand and not doing the right thing for my pet and it and it's made me think differently about it.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that's just one pet that we helps.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: I know I know it's a weird subject because it is the end of life care but we still definitely help that pet and and that dignity at the end of life I I think really matters and it also when you get it right it really helps the pet parent as well because it's something they can get comfort in that they they they got it right.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and I yeah and I think the ability to do it at home like you said in their own comfort and at peace like I said we didn't we didn't get that opportunity with Marley.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: I hope we get it with Marshall and um that's that that had a big impact on me not getting that uh at home so that's that's phenomenal but yeah thank you again for being on the show today and my pleasure and I know it's a tough I can see the impact it's it's had on you I can I can sort of feel it in your your throat and um I do appreciate you allowing me to to talk about something that's difficult because it comes with the territory of being a pet parent.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh absolutely 100% agree with you absolutely well cool and and on that new and hang on don't leave just yet but just for the listeners again we'll share uh Jenny's information in the description there'll be a newsletter that will go out after this as well um more toolkit educating yourself um but again you know Jenny thank you for being on the show today and and like you said uh powerful topics powerful conversation