Latest / Uncommon Impact / Jim McKenzie: Leading Change, Casting Vision & Inspiring Hope

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Jim McKenzie: Leading Change, Casting Vision & Inspiring Hope · Uncommon Impact

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This week on Uncommon Impact, I've got Jim McKenzie.
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I've known Jim for a number of years.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: He's in education.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: He's been head of school.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Now he's doing consulting.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: He's written a book, and he's really impacting a lot of people.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: He's been an entrepreneur in this space and not afraid of change, both in the environment he was in and in helping people casting a vision and going through that change, but then also in helping people see ways in which they can change the environments they're in and how they're bringing education to others.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Hope you enjoy.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Jim, thanks so much for joining me on Uncommon Impact.
• 0:33
  Speaker: Absolutely.
• 0:33
  Speaker: Great to be here.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Thanks for the invitation.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: So we've talked before, we we kind of brainstormed about we should do a podcast, and then I went ahead and jumped the gun and did it anyway.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Um and now at least I've got you on.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: So um so maybe we'll still revisit that.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Although I do wonder if we'd have too many inside jokes and the listeners would be like, Wow, we don't even know what they're doing.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: So thanks for being on.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Very true.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: You've been um ingrained in our families' lives for years, thanks to our daughter going to The Rock over the years.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: And and now you've written a book, and and I've told that some people have said, and I don't know, you know, the Foreword is better than the book.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true.
• 1:18
  Speaker: It is.
• 1:18
  Speaker: The book starts at a high point, and it really is just it's all downhill from there.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: So isn't that right?
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: Shoot.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Well, who wrote the Foreword?
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: I forget.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: That's the bad name.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: So anyway.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Nathan, yeah.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: So so in the forward, though, I told the story, and I think this is I think this is part of where I want to talk about with you.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Is that for fans of the Princess Bride, we kind of had the approach to our daughter's schooling of we decided that we would go there for sixth grade and and put her there.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: And and there's some really good options around town.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: And so we thought, okay, let's go here for sixth grade.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: We think this will be the right spot for, and then we'll revisit at the end of the year.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: So so kind of like uh the dread pirate Roberts every every time with Wesley saying, you know, uh uh good night, sleep tight, sweet dreams, uh, I'll probably kill you in the morning.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: So it felt like that every year.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: Like, we'll go to the rock for this year and then we'll we'll find somewhere else.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: And in no small part, because of your leadership and your ability to think through change and and what the school should be doing and how it should be serving kids and developing citizens.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Every year we thought, oh, actually, this is really good.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're gonna do this for another year at least, and then we'll see where it fits.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: And of course, sixth grade turned into her graduating.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Um talk to me a little bit about your journey in leadership and then also that approach of not being afraid to change things up even when something's working.
• 2:43
  Speaker: Yeah, I one I think one of the things that I loved about leading an independent school was this really strong sense of autonomy.
• 2:51
  Speaker: Um, and so we could really we could cast vision for what we wanted to be as a school, and we could like we could change at the rate of change that we wanted to go, right?
• 3:01
  Speaker: Like we could go as fast as we wanted.
• 3:04
  Speaker: Um, and so there's this real invitation to to kind of dream big.
• 3:10
  Speaker: Um, and so it's one of the things I just I loved about my role is that nothing seemed off limits, right?
• 3:17
  Speaker: Like we got to approach education from a really imaginative standpoint.
• 3:22
  Speaker: And I used to, I still use this illustration sometimes.
• 3:25
  Speaker: I I tell people I'm like, you know, it's like I got to be like Willy Wonka uh in an education factory, right?
• 3:32
  Speaker: Because you know, education can feel very like factory model, right?
• 3:36
  Speaker: We like we have our systems and we run people through and we're trying to create a certain kind of output, we're trying to standardize that output, we're trying to do everything efficiently.
• 3:44
  Speaker: Um, and that, you know, and that's and that's fine on one hand, but what the reason I love the sort of Willy Wonka metaphor is that Wonka was producing candy.
• 3:54
  Speaker: He was just running a chocolate factory, but he was doing it in a really imaginative kind of way.
• 3:58
  Speaker: So he's producing the kind of outcomes that he wanted, but he was doing it in a way that was really like in just you know enlivening and just inspiring and really imaginative.
• 4:07
  Speaker: And so I I just tried to kind of think in that kind of capacity, like as a leader, not to get marred and and kind of mired in this, like, oh, you know, like what's the most efficient way to do things and how do I optimize my systems and and instead to think like, you know, what's what's the imaginative way to do this, right?
• 4:28
  Speaker: How do we think about the formation of the students in our school and not just information transfer?
• 4:35
  Speaker: Um, and how do we create an experience that's that's engaging, that students want to be a part of, that families like yours say every year, like, why would we, why would we choose something else?
• 4:46
  Speaker: And I think, you know, if I had to guess, Nathan, I think what really you know held your family to our school as we were growing all those years was I think you caught hold of this imagination that we were casting and you said, Hey, I I love this vision and I'm willing to go on the journey with you, you know, through kind of the ups and downs, and as the school's growing through going through its growing pains, like I think family stayed with us because they they caught hold of that sort of imaginative spirit.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: So all that makes sense, all that applies to education, certainly, and it applies to business, right?
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Leadership, other teams, other whatever.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: You know, but but there's also this thought of for me, if this is the output and if we're headed in that direction and we're at least reasonably successful at turning out chocolate bars or students who are citizens who have been educated in in the things they need to know.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: I've got a bunch of other folks who are like, hey, I've I've got 10 years worth of lesson plans and I know exactly how to do what I need to do.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: And now Jim's like, hey, you know what?
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: Look, a chocolate river, let's go and do it this way.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Um Right.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, is it it it's a great concept, but it's got to be hard at times to get people to go, okay, yeah, let's let's tear up what we've done or let's modify what we've done and and we'll trace this vision.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: What was there any approach to how you would change the culture?
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Did you keep a did you keep the was the culture change itself?
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: How did you how did you kind of do that as well and keep people engaged and on board?
• 6:17
  Speaker: Yeah, it's really interesting.
• 6:18
  Speaker: I I had read a uh a framework called the Four Rooms of Change, and um and it was really a helpful way for me to think about navigating our school through this change.
• 6:30
  Speaker: Because one of the big overarching changes that, you know, and you're aware of this, was you know, we were taking our school from a very kind of traditional form of education, very lecture-oriented, kids in rows of desks.
• 6:40
  Speaker: And over the course of several years, we transformed the school, we got rid of those old environments, we brought in more collaborative environments, we went to more of a teacher as facilitator, and then ultimately we moved to uh the international backlaureate model from grades K through 12.
• 6:56
  Speaker: Um, and so that was you know significant change for our staff, you know, especially when we had teachers who had been on our campus for 20 years and had a very certain way of doing things.
• 7:08
  Speaker: And so, you know, one of the things that I learned um through kind of some previous change initiatives that were not as successful is um that when we lead with information first, like, hey, here's the very rational, logical reason why we're gonna do this, and then later we try to inspire people to like get on board, um, it it doesn't work.
• 7:31
  Speaker: So that when this time around, I I've kind of flipped it and I started with more of an inspirational model.
• 7:37
  Speaker: Like, like, here's here's like the reason why this is necessary.
• 7:43
  Speaker: Like, here's what we're aiming for, and then later we'll get into sort of the informational, tactical, like how do we how do we do it?
• 7:51
  Speaker: I think we have to cast a really clear vision first, and that vision needs to be um aspirational.
• 7:58
  Speaker: And so, in the in the context of a K-12 school, you know, we're talking about like kind of the ideals of formation around students.
• 8:06
  Speaker: Like, what kind of students are we trying to form in our school?
• 8:10
  Speaker: And is our current model doing that well, or is there opportunity for improvement?
• 8:16
  Speaker: And I think people recognize, okay, there's like we're not hitting the mark, like there's there's opportunity for improvement.
• 8:24
  Speaker: But here's the reality, and this is this is what I knew going in, and I just had to accept, is that people were going to people were going to opt out along the way.
• 8:34
  Speaker: Um, and that's kind of like what I I learned from this idea of the four rooms of change that as people move through these four rooms, people will leave the organization at different times.
• 8:45
  Speaker: So there were people who were like, when we cast the vision, we're like, yeah, I've been doing this 25 years, I'm nearing retirement, like I'm not making a major change, like I'm out.
• 8:54
  Speaker: And so it was like, okay, like we have to be willing to let them leave.
• 8:57
  Speaker: There were other people who were like, you know, let me see what this is all about.
• 9:01
  Speaker: And they they went through a year of us kind of learning about the changes and they decided, like, yeah, like I'm not, I don't like this, I'm out.
• 9:09
  Speaker: But every time somebody left, it allowed us to hire someone who was better aligned to the vision that we were that we were aiming for.
• 9:19
  Speaker: Uh, and so I had to be okay with the fact that there was going to be some attrition on staff, but it was going to be people self-selecting out.
• 9:26
  Speaker: Um, but that was going to allow me to hire people who, again, were going to be better aligned because we had a clearer vision of what we were hiring for this time around.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: So just to put a thought on it this way, in some in some ways it would be not the personality, right?
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: It'll be easy to take it personally, right?
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm trying to do this, I'm trying to get us to this place, and people are wanting to leave.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Um, but it sounds like if you keep it based on principles of like, here's the goal and here's where we're trying to get, if you don't want to be a part of it, that that that's fine.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: There are different purposes for different people, there are different organizations, there's different settings.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: Great, go find one of those, and and I'm sure you'll do great in that.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Um, versus, hey, I've tried to present something, I really think this is gonna be amazing, and people are leaving.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Um, which you could take personally, right?
• 10:14
  Speaker: Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely you can take personally.
• 10:17
  Speaker: Um, you know, for me, I just had to keep reminding myself through this whole process that like I was doing what I really believed was in the best interest of the institution, right?
• 10:27
  Speaker: And my job as head of school is to first and foremost serve the best interest of the school that I lead, right?
• 10:36
  Speaker: Even before my own interests or the interests of my children or the interests of you know the staff members at our school, ultimately I have to do what's best for the institution.
• 10:47
  Speaker: Um, and so that meant going in this direction um and being willing to let people leave if they weren't aligned with that vision.
• 10:57
  Speaker: Now, I I want to say, because that can sound like really harsh, like, oh, I don't, you know, we didn't care about people, it's all about the school, it's not about, but the reality is like I need the people and I want the people to come along, right?
• 11:08
  Speaker: So we were, we went at a very slow, deliberate pace.
• 11:14
  Speaker: Like we gave people plenty of time and support to come along.
• 11:17
  Speaker: In fact, one of the things that we did at our school is we shortened Wednesday to a half day of school so that we could carve out two to three hours of professional development time every Wednesday during the regular school day hours for our staff to learn and understand and practice and grow in the kinds of changes that we were wanting to do across the school, right?
• 11:42
  Speaker: So there was a very complex, you know, very broad, complex support system that was in place to support staff.
• 11:50
  Speaker: I would say the majority of the ones that chose to leave, it was not that they thought I can't do it.
• 11:56
  Speaker: It was more of I don't want to do it because I have a philosophical objection to the new vision.
• 12:02
  Speaker: I don't believe in the model of education that's being presented.
• 12:07
  Speaker: Uh, I want to do it the old way.
• 12:09
  Speaker: I want to do it the way I've always done it, because I have a proven track record.
• 12:14
  Speaker: And so those were the people who left.
• 12:15
  Speaker: And there's there are plenty of other schools um still following that model that they were able to go be a part of and continue their education career in an environment that suited them.
• 12:25
  Speaker: Um but that allowed us um to move uh in the direction we wanted to go and get the right people in the right seats.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: And let me ask you then one more thing about because now you're now you're consulting, you're doing workshops, you're doing a bunch of stuff helping other school leaders with some of these same things.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Let me let me just ask you a little bit about the the what you were talking about, the uh the Willy Wonka model and that and the learning to inspire first um and tell people where you're going, and then maybe they help.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was watching something, and you can tell me if this is on base or not, but I was watching um Tom Hanks' World War II documentary talking about D-Day and talking about Eisenhower and his his method of leadership, and that he would always look to build, he had very strong opinions, but then would try to get people uh to come on board and and to build kind of a coalition to coalesce around these ideas.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: And and so he's saying to Montgomery, the the British general who's assisting him with D-Day, he's saying to Montgomery, I think we need to hit the beaches with overwhelming force, right?
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: We've got to, and Montgomery says yes, and and Eisenhower had been told by Washington that they may only give him three divisions.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: And Eisenhower says, so we're gonna hit him with overwhelming.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: I and and Eisenhower was adamant that it had to be six or whatever, and and but they're only gonna give him three.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: So he says, Um, overwhelming force, so let's hit them with three divisions.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: And Montgomery went, That's nuts.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: We can't do it with three divisions.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: You have to tell them six, I'll tell them six.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: And and all of a sudden he had everybody on board, he kind of led them to a place where it wasn't him saying six, right?
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: It was him saying, let's agree on the principle, and Montgomery coming in and going, Okay, great, we've got to do it this way.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: To some extent, right?
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: When you talk about, I think what I saw from you educationally, collaboration, having students who were excited about learning and there were going to be learners for the rest of their lives, hopefully, that meant you get away from the rows and lectures and you get into this collaborative model.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: I think if you present the first idea of how are we going to get, then a lot of your teachers are gonna be, well, that that's not gonna, I can't sit there and lecture from the front of the room.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: And how are they gonna be engaged in learning on their own?
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: And and anyway, it just feels like another way to get to that and to have people realize that they need to be out in front of this.
• 14:35
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 14:36
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 14:36
  Speaker: Um that's a great, that's I think that's a great illustration.
• 14:39
  Speaker: Uh one of the things that we um, you know, one of the things that we try to do is to get get people to take kind of an honest assessment, right, and identify what you know, what are some of the challenges?
• 14:48
  Speaker: Because teachers would tell you, like student engagement, any teacher today across America will tell you one of the greatest challenges is student engagement.
• 14:54
  Speaker: You know, um, whether there's phones in the classroom, not phones in the classroom, there's just a million distractions, and kids today are just seem less likely to really be engaged and actively involved in their learning.
• 15:05
  Speaker: And so that was no different at our school.
• 15:06
  Speaker: Our staff recognized that.
• 15:08
  Speaker: And so it was like, well, you know, if that's the current reality, then maybe what we're doing isn't working.
• 15:13
  Speaker: What are what can we do to change things?
• 15:16
  Speaker: Um, I remember hearing something from um, I think it was Andy Stanley said this years ago, maybe at a leader cast or something that I heard, but he said, he said, people follow character.
• 15:26
  Speaker: No, he said sorry, he said people value character, but they follow clarity.
• 15:32
  Speaker: Um and I thought that was so helpful because so often, you know, we think like, oh, a leader just needs to be a person of high character.
• 15:41
  Speaker: Like, you know, like if we just have a really good, virtuous, you know, man or woman leading that's got integrity and you know, loyal and and is truthful, like then that's that's what we need.
• 15:52
  Speaker: That's all an organization needs.
• 15:54
  Speaker: Um and I realize like at the end of the day, like people value that.
• 15:59
  Speaker: They're like, yay, like he's a really great guy, but they don't stay if there's a lack of clarity.
• 16:06
  Speaker: Um, and so really from that moment on, you know, my goal was was not like, well, be clarity instead.
• 16:12
  Speaker: My goal was to be both, right?
• 16:14
  Speaker: Be a person of character and be a person of clarity.
• 16:17
  Speaker: But but it was a good reminder that it's not enough to just be a good guy or a nice guy and think that people will follow you in your vision.
• 16:25
  Speaker: You have to have clarity.
• 16:27
  Speaker: Uh, and so I worked really hard to learn to tell a compelling story in a really clear way that people could understand.
• 16:36
  Speaker: I worked really hard to, uh even as a in in my role as head of school, to really become almost a master storyteller so that I could, you know, really crystallize the vision and the direction that I wanted to go, um, so that I'd have the best opportunity to get people to follow.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Wow, I love that.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Um well, let's talk a little bit about then clarity and some of these things.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: You've now gone out on your own.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: You you left what um was a very safe situation, and you probably could have done that for a long, long time.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: And instead you stepped out and have written a book, you've you're speaking, you're consulting, you're doing workshops, you're you traveled, I don't know how many times this summer, um, and you're just always on the go.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about that and how you determined that it was the time in your life to make an impact in a different way, and then you know, totally smooth sailing, you know, leap of faith, or or what, right?
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I think we all assume that, okay, well, he's doing this now, so okay, that was easy and obvious to do, and and instead it probably was murky and and trying to decide if you're really following the right path.
• 17:48
  Speaker: Sure.
• 17:48
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 17:49
  Speaker: I so I spent 24 years at um at my school.
• 17:54
  Speaker: Uh it started for a couple of years as a high school teacher, and then I spent 21 years in leadership.
• 17:59
  Speaker: And honestly, like it was my dream job.
• 18:02
  Speaker: Um, my last year there, we celebrated our school's 30th year.
• 18:06
  Speaker: Um, and I really had this vision, like, hey, I'm I'm gonna do this for another 20 years.
• 18:11
  Speaker: Um, I'm gonna help us celebrate 50 years as a school, and then I'm gonna pass the baton, then I'm gonna retire right off into the sunset, right?
• 18:19
  Speaker: So, so I'm I'm fully expectant.
• 18:21
  Speaker: I've got another 20 years to invest in this school community.
• 18:24
  Speaker: I'm not thinking about anything else.
• 18:27
  Speaker: And the summer before my last year at the school, I could not shake this very strong conviction from God that I was supposed to leave.
• 18:36
  Speaker: But I had no clue what I was gonna do next.
• 18:40
  Speaker: I just knew I was supposed to leave.
• 18:42
  Speaker: And so that fall I told our board and our staff, and then ultimately our school community, this is my last year, I'm leaving.
• 18:51
  Speaker: And and you know, and so I kind of went through the year and you know, kind of put a ball on everything and kind of transitioned to the new leadership, and then in you know, at the end of June of 2023, I I stepped away, um, not really knowing what I was gonna do next.
• 19:12
  Speaker: And it's it was just interesting how my calendar just started to fill up with different opportunities and invitations.
• 19:23
  Speaker: And I I tell people, I I ended up I quit one job to do 10.
• 19:28
  Speaker: Um, so I as a consultant, people are like, what do you do?
• 19:32
  Speaker: I'm like, uh, it depends what day of the week it is.
• 19:34
  Speaker: Um, I have my hands in uh a bunch of uh different things.
• 19:39
  Speaker: Um but what's I think if I was gonna kind of characterize what's changed is I spent 24 years learning and growing uh and gaining a tremendous amount of experience in leading one school and taking that school through so many different challenges and growing it from a a startup school with just a very small student population to a you know a very much larger school that's really flourishing with a much broader vision.
• 20:05
  Speaker: And so I think because of that, uh there's a lot of people who are like, hey, we think we have something to learn from you.
• 20:13
  Speaker: And so I just started getting phone calls and emails.
• 20:15
  Speaker: Can you come speak at this?
• 20:16
  Speaker: Can you come lead this?
• 20:17
  Speaker: Can you come, can you come do that?
• 20:20
  Speaker: And so for the majority of my career, I invested deeply in one school community.
• 20:26
  Speaker: Um, and for the last three years, I've had a chance to kind of impact the movement, uh, specifically kind of within the Christian education movement, really across the US uh and Canada.
• 20:37
  Speaker: I've been, you know, I've traveled to, you know, gosh, I don't know how many different states just in the last year alone, several provinces in Canada, I've gone to Africa.
• 20:46
  Speaker: Um and so there's just been all these kind of opportunities.
• 20:49
  Speaker: Now it's different.
• 20:50
  Speaker: When I was at my school, I you know, I was able to do like really deep work because I was there every single day.
• 20:56
  Speaker: Now I'm having a broader impact, right?
• 20:59
  Speaker: So I go and I spend a few days with the school community and I make an investment there and then you know coach up their leadership, and then hopefully, you know, I kind of sow seeds, and then you know, that that institution and those leaders kind of kind of run with it.
• 21:14
  Speaker: Um, and so um so it's been really, really encouraging.
• 21:18
  Speaker: Uh, someone actually said to me this summer, they said, Jim, you you might be the most influential person in Christian education right now.
• 21:26
  Speaker: Now, I don't actually believe that's true.
• 21:28
  Speaker: I can name a whole lot of people who are way more influential, but they were like, you know, think about all the different things you have your hand in, all the different circles, all the different movements, all the different ways in which like you're you have a voice into this growing movement across the US right now.
• 21:43
  Speaker: Um, and that was that was on one hand encouraging, but also very humbling uh to hear.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how about that?
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Well, here, I just thought you were a regular guy.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Um very much well, yes, yes, we won't we won't point that out too much.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you this.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: When you're you're a couple of years into this journey, three years, two years?
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: And and so you step out, right?
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: Some people, you know, build the ship before they set out from the harbor, but you'd we're just like, you know what, we're just gonna nail stuff together while we're sailing.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Um and and figure it out as we go.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Is there a sense, have you learned anything about um, you know, you probably have this sense early on of like, I gotta say yes to everything, right?
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: I need I need to develop opportunities, I need to whatever.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Has it been easy at times then to say, okay, this maybe is a little more on mission than this might be, or even figuring out where's my or are you still in a situation where I there's no way you are.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: You're too busy to be saying yes to everything.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: Is that hard at times to turn things down when when you're sitting there looking at like, hey, I'm a you know, this is a solo business.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: I can't, I can't say it.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: That feels like a pressure.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: I know that pressure.
• 22:52
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 22:53
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 22:53
  Speaker: No, I, you know, I'm not uh I'm not in high demand like you, Nathan.
• 22:57
  Speaker: So I don't, I'm not, I'm not inundated where I'm like having to like pick and choose.
• 23:01
  Speaker: Um uh you know, I've had busy seasons and I've had um slower seasons.
• 23:06
  Speaker: Um but I I have been I have been somewhat selective uh about the work that I do in the sense that I you know when I stepped away from the school, um, you know, there were there were like a couple of like sort of like um you know conditions I had.
• 23:23
  Speaker: I'm like, okay, God, I'm gonna do this, but like a couple on a couple of conditions.
• 23:27
  Speaker: One, I don't want to move.
• 23:28
  Speaker: I've got roots where I'm at, I'll travel, but I don't want to uproot my family.
• 23:32
  Speaker: Two, I don't want to lead another school.
• 23:34
  Speaker: I love the school I was at.
• 23:35
  Speaker: So if you want me to be a school leader, then just put me back where I was.
• 23:38
  Speaker: Um and through, and number three, and this was the one that was most important, like, God, I want to do meaningful work in the latter part of my life.
• 23:45
  Speaker: Like, you know, please don't make me go like sell something or you know, work in an office.
• 23:50
  Speaker: And it's not that I I don't have any objections to that kind of work.
• 23:54
  Speaker: Um, I just know like having done really work that I find deeply meaningful and significant, I didn't want to just go have a job for the next 10 years.
• 24:04
  Speaker: Um, and so that's really been, I think, the thing for the filter for me when deciding like what to say yes to is, you know, one, do I feel like I can serve this audience well?
• 24:14
  Speaker: Um, do I actually feel like I can have I have something meaningfully to contribute?
• 24:18
  Speaker: Um and then two, like, will this bring me, like will this bring me joy, right?
• 24:23
  Speaker: Like, is this work that I will enjoy doing?
• 24:26
  Speaker: Um, and so there have been a few times that I've said, no, um, hey, I'd love to help you, but I actually don't think I'm the right guy.
• 24:34
  Speaker: Uh, I don't think I have the expertise that you think I do to serve you well.
• 24:38
  Speaker: Let me recommend somebody else.
• 24:40
  Speaker: Uh, and there have been a few times I was I thought, this, I would not find joy in this.
• 24:45
  Speaker: Like this would be a real drain.
• 24:47
  Speaker: Um and in other times of my life I would have said yes anyway for a paycheck.
• 24:52
  Speaker: Um, but at this stage, I'm like, you know, I'm I'm just gonna I'm gonna say no.
• 24:57
  Speaker: Um I'm gonna say no to that.
• 24:58
  Speaker: And so so I get to do a lot of different things, but largely it's things um that I enjoy.
• 25:04
  Speaker: Some some more than others, um, but all the work has been energizing in some way or another.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, good.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you you haven't had to wrestle with that too much, but I but you clearly have some.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: And what's meaningful and what's not.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: And also, you know, the great point about is this an audience I can serve?
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Um and you know, I got asked to do a keynote one time to a national group and it was a uh a field I don't know much about.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: I'm like, well, great, I can come and talk about you know leadership, motivation, whatever.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: And they're like, no, no, no, we want you to talk about our topics and our themes of how to do our industry.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, I can't.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: And they're like, we can give you those.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: And then if you'd weave in some Tebow stories and if you'd, you know, and we'll tell you kind of what to say about, and I I ended up declining.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: So I'm like, this just feels so disingenuous because I don't know your your field.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: And so they're like, Yeah, we'll give you the important things.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Um, but again, that can I really serve you and and help you where you where you are and and with my background and the like.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you then about service.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: We're gonna tie this into service and hospitality.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: You've done something with a handful of schools, and and um I had an interesting conversation with a mutual friend in in Vancouver, Washington about this who said uh that if it if he were you, he would be doing this full-time to every school in the country.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: But but this idea of unreasonable hospitality, the book that's been out now for a while, and how we create environments that are engaging and welcoming and the like.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: But I'm using my words now.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: Can you talk about that just a tad and how you've taken something in a totally different field, right?
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: The restaurant field, and you've applied it to this other area.
• 26:38
  Speaker: Yeah, so it was interesting.
• 26:39
  Speaker: I read um I well I read Will Guidara's book when it first came out, and actually what made me pick it up is I was doing some stuff with um kind of a uh like an in-home restaurant concept, and I was helping a friend kind of build this um kind of um kind of a boutique, um fine dining, in-home kind of experience.
• 26:58
  Speaker: Um, and so I was I picked up the book thinking, oh, this will be helpful for that work.
• 27:02
  Speaker: But as I'm reading the book, you know, my mind just goes back to where I've spent most of my life, and that's in the education arena, and I keep thinking, like, oh, this has so many applications for schools.
• 27:10
  Speaker: This is so many applications for schools.
• 27:12
  Speaker: And so I finished reading the book.
• 27:15
  Speaker: I started writing on LinkedIn just about like the book, and like here are some things I think, some connections and like what I think it would mean for Christian schools and whatnot.
• 27:23
  Speaker: And a school reaches out and says, Hey, like we just read the book.
• 27:26
  Speaker: Can you come to a workshop with our staff on what it would look like?
• 27:30
  Speaker: And I was like, Yeah, absolutely.
• 27:32
  Speaker: I I just had to create it first, right?
• 27:35
  Speaker: And so, but the invitation, you know, sort of like prompted me to like create something that I was very passionate about.
• 27:42
  Speaker: And so we uh I partnered with a friend of mine, and we built this um you know, day and a half training, and we went and did it at the school, and it was a huge success.
• 27:50
  Speaker: Um, and it's been a um it's been six or eight months since we were there.
• 27:54
  Speaker: That school still talks about the work that they're doing as a result of our visit.
• 27:58
  Speaker: Um, and so we're like, hey, this has real value.
• 28:01
  Speaker: Um and so then, of course, we started sharing it.
• 28:03
  Speaker: And um, and so this summer we did it for a number of different schools, including our our friend in Vancouver.
• 28:08
  Speaker: Um, some churches have reached out and said, hey, like we heard you're doing this for the school.
• 28:12
  Speaker: Can you come do it for our church staff?
• 28:14
  Speaker: And so uh and so uh we've done that, we've done that as well.
• 28:19
  Speaker: Um and again, it it this it goes back almost to what I said originally about sort of that imaginative approach to schools, right?
• 28:28
  Speaker: Schools are schools are terribly institutional and bureaucratic, and you know, and so for all the fluffin' stuff that we talk about about community and all these things, like they large school experience can often feel sort of very inhuman, very lifeless.
• 28:45
  Speaker: Um and so the idea behind this, you know, what we took inspiration from Will's book, and we talk about, we crafted a workshop that we call Elevating the Experience.
• 28:55
  Speaker: Um but part of the part of the the contention here is that um human connection is becoming more and more valuable.
• 29:05
  Speaker: Um, you know, as we become more and more sort of technologically advanced and all these different things, I think people are going to start gravitating towards things that feel deeply human and create a strong sense of human connection.
• 29:18
  Speaker: Um and so it seems like schools are a great place to do that.
• 29:23
  Speaker: Because my I think the argument that I would make is that the idea of like rigorous academics or a strong academic program or in a Christian school, academics and like discipleship, like that's really table stakes today.
• 29:35
  Speaker: Like that that used to be if you did those two things well, that was enough.
• 29:38
  Speaker: But today that's really not enough.
• 29:40
  Speaker: Like that's that's the price you pay to that's the price you pay to be in the game, so to speak, right?
• 29:45
  Speaker: So I think hospitality and this idea of unreasonable hospitality um really becomes a differentiator that can help schools kind of set themselves apart from the competition.
• 29:56
  Speaker: And I think it's the kind of thing that families in the future will be willing to pay a price premium for because there's going to be such value placed upon organizations, institutions that can create really meaningful human connection.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's great.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize that's where it was all headed back to because we all do totally crave connection, even as we're connected.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Uh we're not connected in a way that that really speaks to our souls and who we are as people.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: One quick thought about so the it was one thing for me to say to that marketing group, hey, I don't know anything about marketing, and for me to say here are the eight principles of marketing would feel disingenuous.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: It's another thing to say, here's a field I've been in, here's something I've been thinking on, I'll create this for you.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: Um I think a lot of times we want to go, wait, wait, wait, let me let me learn it, let me test it, let me figure it out, versus, yeah, I can do that.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: That's not disingenuous for me to figure this out and figure it out.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's something I, you know, it's that entrepreneurial spirit of yes, this is in my wheelhouse.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: I haven't done it yet, but I'll be there Tuesday and we're gonna let it roll.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Um I love that.
• 31:02
  Speaker: Yeah, it because I know the context, right?
• 31:05
  Speaker: Like you're asking me what does this look like in a school?
• 31:07
  Speaker: Now, if you said, if you said, hey, will you come teach unreasonable hospitality to my banking industry?
• 31:13
  Speaker: I I'd say no, because I don't know the banking industry, but but I I know the education industry, I know the school, and so I know what it might look like to apply the principles of unreasonable hospitality in the school setting.
• 31:24
  Speaker: Right?
• 31:25
  Speaker: It's the same way with um like artificial intelligence, right?
• 31:28
  Speaker: I I could never teach a workshop on artificial intelligence, but I could lead trainings on what AI could or should look like in the context of school because again, I've spent lots of time thinking about studying, reading, you know, um what that what that looks like.
• 31:45
  Speaker: So I think because of my expertise in the context of education, it allows me to speak to different topics that might be new, you know, or trending or whatever, um, and and still feel like I can contribute something.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: And I still think, you know, and and again, you can you can push back.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: I still think all these things would apply in banking, in general motors, in whatever.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's you talk about these principles and how they, you know, in some ways it might be um easier in some ways if you're not dealing with sixth graders and trying to figure out how to get inside the mind of the 12-year-old.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Um but but anyway, uh that that may be a whole nother topic for another time.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: Um but I do love that you've done all that, and I love that you've carved out these things.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Um where does just kind of to take us home, where does um uncommon impact go for you next?
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: You talked about meaningful work and and what it means for that.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Are you continuing down these paths?
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Are there other things you're you're thinking through?
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Where where do you see yourself heading with this or just kind of continuing to let doors open?
• 32:53
  Speaker: Yeah, it's a really interesting question.
• 32:55
  Speaker: Um and and I'm really in a kind of in a season right now where I'm really giving thoughts of like, okay, what's next?
• 33:01
  Speaker: I've had this kind of three-year journey of doing all these different things, and and as I'm looking ahead, I'm like, do I want to continue to sort of follow this path?
• 33:10
  Speaker: Is there something different that I want to do?
• 33:13
  Speaker: Um, and you know, I mean I've got some different ideas and I'll test the waters and just kind of see uh what resonates um with you know sort of my audience and kind of decide where to go.
• 33:25
  Speaker: But but I think you know, if there's a common theme to the work that I the work that I did at my school, the work that I've tried to do the last couple years, and the work that I want to do for the you know the remainder of my vocational years is you know, at the end of the day, I I want to be a person that inspires hope in others.
• 33:45
  Speaker: Um you know, when I think about like the Willy Wonkada and the the casting vision for a different kind of school, it was it was always doing it in a way that like created a sense of hope, right?
• 33:58
  Speaker: I it I never wanted our staff to be like, this is impossible and hard.
• 34:02
  Speaker: I wanted them to be inspired like and have a sense of like hopefulness about the future.
• 34:07
  Speaker: And I and I've tried to carry that into all my work um the last three years.
• 34:12
  Speaker: Every audience that I speak to, whether it's school leaders or whether it's educators or whether it's boards or whether it's in the US or abroad, you know, I've tried to be a person that that inspires a sense of hopefulness, you know.
• 34:26
  Speaker: So it's like, hey, here's the vision and here's how to do it, and yes, it can be done.
• 34:33
  Speaker: Um and so that's what I, you know, that's really what I want to do, because I think that's one of the core tenets of leadership, right?
• 34:40
  Speaker: Is to is to inspire hope, not just tell people how to do something or tell people what to do, but really to inspire a sense of hopefulness that we can do this, that and that we can create a sort of better, brighter tomorrow.
• 34:52
  Speaker: Um, and so that's really what I want to give the rest of my years uh to doing in whatever capacity and whatever doors open is uh is to continue to inspire audiences to have a sense of hopefulness because there doesn't seem to be a lot of that.
• 35:09
  Speaker: If you turn on the cable news, uh if you read the paper, if you stream social media, it seems like the influencers and the people out there are largely fomenting conflict um uh because that's what goes viral.
• 35:24
  Speaker: And in the midst of sort of all that negativity, I just want to be this one small voice that's um offering um offering a sense of hope.
• 35:34
  Speaker: So we'll see where that we'll see where that leads me.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: That's great.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: And yes, I think you're right.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: I think so often, whether it's presentations, whether it's what we see out there, influencers, whatever, it's it's playing against the sense of doom.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: It's doom versus I'll give you another way, versus, hey, let me just hold out hope for you.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Let's follow hope and and not worry as much about the you know the doom side of things, which which appears to be what people are selling these days, is is they're not even selling me hope.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: They're just selling me not doom.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: Um which doesn't feel very inspiring.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Uh it just it just drags me down.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: Um so I love that.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: That's great.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: And and I think at the end of the day, you really are.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Uh, you know, with with that's what I love about speaking to different groups, but it especially educational groups where they're going to be impacting a lot of these kids that are going to become lifelong learners.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: They're going to think of things we never thought of.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: You had some stat when when my daughter was um still in school, something about X percent of vocations, jobs, whatever, haven't even been thought of yet, let alone um a job description, right?
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: We don't even know what we need, but we're gonna need people who are gonna go out and solve problems.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: And and a lot of these kids are gonna be able to do that.
• 36:47
  Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:48
  Speaker: And just to bookend the story that you open with about your daughter, I can't tell you how cool it is for me to see your daughter is now a teacher at the school where she graduated, right?
• 36:58
  Speaker: So and she didn't even set out to do it.
• 37:00
  Speaker: Um, it wasn't her plan when she left high school, but here it's kind of come, sort of a full circle moment.
• 37:05
  Speaker: So that's really cool for me to see.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: And and yeah, no, it's been fantastic.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: And she passed up uh going to Malawi with the Peace Corps to do that, and and it, you know, you taught you think about like meaning and whatever, and I'm like, oh, the Peace Corps, and I was scared to death as a dad.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: And then she was so excited about teaching seventh and tenth graders at The Rock, and she went, you know what?
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: I can change people's lives in Malawi, but I can also change lives right here in a really cool way and use my science background.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: And anyway, we're so excited.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: It has been a neat uh coded to that story.
• 37:40
  Speaker: Yeah, awesome.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks so much for joining me.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: It's been great chatting with you, Jim.
• 37:45
  Speaker: Likewise, man.
• 37:46
  Speaker: Appreciate the invitation.
• 37:47
  Speaker: Always fun to uh get a chance to chat with you.
• 37:50
  unknown: Good.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: One of these days maybe we'll have our own podcast or at least be dual hosting.
• 37:54
  Speaker: Yeah, we can just tell jokes and see who laughs along with us.