Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / KANSAS MOMS IN HORRIFIC HOLE, 10 FT DEEP, DIRT, CEMENT CHUNKS, HAY: BURIED ALIVE?

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KANSAS MOMS IN HORRIFIC HOLE, 10 FT DEEP, DIRT, CEMENT CHUNKS, HAY: BURIED ALIVE? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Breaking news Tonight, two Kansas moms ambushed on a remote
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  Speaker 2: Oklahoma road, left behind multiple pools of blood and a
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: broken hammer found beside Mommy's empty car. Tonight, a bone
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: chilling discovery. Investigators follow cell phone pings to find a
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: horrific hole ten feet deep, the two moms at the bottom,
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: covered in a massive amount of dirt, cement chunks, and
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: hey were the moms buried alive?
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Overnight, a fifth suspect arrested.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: In the murders of the two Kansas moms, another so
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  Speaker 2: called member of the cult God's Misfits. Good evening, I mean, see, Grace,
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: being with us.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: Paul Gryce arrest in the murders of Veronica Butler and
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: Jillian Kelly. Grice mentioned as an accomplice in the first
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: days of the investigation, but investigators interviewed him and let
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: him go. After court documents are released, however, police arrest
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: thirty one year old Grice. According to court documents, Gris
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: was part of God's Misfits alongside Tiffany Adams and the
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  Speaker 3: other suspects, Cole and Cora Twombly. Allegedly blocked the road,
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: diverting Butler and Kelly to where Adams, Tad Cullum, and
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  Speaker 3: Grice were waiting. Documents also reveal Gris claims he's not
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: a citizen of the USA. He claims that he is
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: not a sovereign citizen. He's not a resident, employee or
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: citizen of the United States Government. He goes on to
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  Speaker 3: say that I hereby asserveate repudier and revoke my citizenship
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  Speaker 3: if any ever existed with the legal fiction known as
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: the United States Government, USA, Inc. And any and all
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: subsidiary corporations, State, County City. He also claims that he
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  Speaker 3: is a living soul living under God's law and his
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: grace alone.
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  Speaker 2: Living under God's law and God's grace alone. I'm not
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  Speaker 2: so sure how God feels about murdering two defenseless mothers
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  Speaker 2: on their way to a kid's birthday party.
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  Speaker 1: That said, let's talk about what we.
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  Speaker 2: Know right now, in addition to a ten foot hole,
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  Speaker 2: how long did that take?
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  Speaker 1: Talk about premeditation under the law.
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  Speaker 2: A ten foot hole found by investigators as they follow
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  Speaker 2: cell phone pings, only to find the bodies of these
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  Speaker 2: two mothers at the bottom, covered in it's got to
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  Speaker 2: be a ton of dirt cement chunks and smoothed over
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  Speaker 2: with Hey were the mom's dead before they were thrown
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: into the hole. Also in the last hours overnight and
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: arrest of a fifth suspect, who is Paul Grice, a
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: young man in his thirties, we are learning that he
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: claims he's not a citizen.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Of the US.
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  Speaker 2: Really, then what's he doing in Oklahoma and Kansas? Not
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: a resident, not an employee? Does that mean he doesn't
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: have a job or a citizen of the US government?
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  Speaker 2: He says, I a serveate his word, not mine, repudiate
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  Speaker 2: and revoke my citizenship with the legal fiction known as
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: the US government, Oh dear, and claims he is a
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: living soul.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Okay with me an all star panel to make sense
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  Speaker 1: of what we know right now?
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  Speaker 2: Paul Grice, what does he have to do with this scenario?
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  Speaker 2: I want to go first to Lauren Conlin, investigative journalist
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: who's been on the case from the beginning, host of
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: the wildly popular Outlier podcast.
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  Speaker 1: Lauren, thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 2: Who is Paul gry and how the hey does he
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: fit in with these four other wing nuts that kill
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: two unarmed mommies.
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  Speaker 1: Who is this guy? Lauren Conlin.
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  Speaker 4: So when the arrest affidavits came out for all four suspects,
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  Speaker 4: there was a fifth suspect named by the witness, by
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  Speaker 4: the sixteen year old witness, and this was Paul Grice.
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  Speaker 4: So I started digging and I ended up finding these
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  Speaker 4: insane land records, and Nancy, I want to point out
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  Speaker 4: there are forty four pages of this gobbledegook nonsense that
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  Speaker 4: he actually addressed to the Secretary of.
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  Speaker 5: State Anthony Blincoln.
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  Speaker 4: I don't know if he actually sent this to him,
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  Speaker 4: but it was addressed to him. And so Paul Grice,
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  Speaker 4: he was said to be at the scene of the
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  Speaker 4: murders with Tiffany Adams line.
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  Speaker 2: I'm holding it his manifesto that he sends to blanken.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, when somebody has the.
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  Speaker 2: Time to write a manifesto like this decrying the US
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  Speaker 2: government and more, he's got time for a job.
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  Speaker 1: What does this guy do? Who is this guy? Do
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  Speaker 1: you know that?
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  Speaker 4: Bled by a few sources, he could be a farmer,
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  Speaker 4: But I can't confirm that.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, that tells me that he may very well not
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  Speaker 2: have a job. And frankly, if he's got time to
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  Speaker 2: write a manifesto like this.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know how he's holding on a full time job.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Guys, did this whole thing stem from a custody dispute?
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  Speaker 2: The grandma in this scenario may she rot in Hell
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  Speaker 2: apparently was so enraged that her daughter in law, this
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  Speaker 2: is Tiffany Michelle Adams, aged fifty four, so enraged her
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  Speaker 2: daughter in law, whom she hated with all of her heart,
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  Speaker 2: was going to get supervised visits or visits, not supervised
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  Speaker 2: visits every Saturday.
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  Speaker 1: She was so enraged by the.
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  Speaker 2: Bio mom look at her getting to see her her
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: own children, that she hatches a murder plot. Now she
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: ropes in her boyfriend Tad Cohen, and she ropes in
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  Speaker 2: Cole and Cora Twombly. And as Lauren Colin was telling
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: you at the get go, just break it down really simply, Lauren,
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  Speaker 2: he was mentioned the new guy, Paul Grace aged thirty
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  Speaker 2: one in the very beginning in the affidavits that he
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  Speaker 2: was around and took part in the planning and part
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  Speaker 2: of the execution of the murder plot.
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  Speaker 1: We knew that at the beginning. What took so long
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  Speaker 1: to arrest him? Yeah, that is the question. Because he
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  Speaker 1: It stated on.
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  Speaker 4: The affidavit, the new one that came out yesterday, that
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  Speaker 4: he was interviewed only on the twenty third of April,
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  Speaker 4: and then he was arrested yesterday on the twenty fourth.
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  Speaker 4: I think all of us are wondering this. And in addition,
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: the affidavit also stated that Tiffany Adams bought five stun guns,
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: so we know all five suspects had them and we're
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  Speaker 4: a part of this horrific, horrific act.
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  Speaker 2: That's very important because by buying five stun guns at
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  Speaker 2: the outset, and I guarantee you the state is going
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: to have surveillance video of her going in and out
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  Speaker 2: of that gun store.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I think they will.
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  Speaker 2: The fact that she bought five at the beginning tells
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  Speaker 2: me that there were five cohorts, five suspects to start with.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: Guys, in the last.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: Hours, we learn of and arrest of a fifth suspect,
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  Speaker 2: What if anything, did he have to do with the
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: entire scenario. We're learning a lot about Gryce, specifically that
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: he claims to be a member of the cult group
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  Speaker 2: God's Misfits.
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  Speaker 3: Listen, the OSBI determines the sect of God's Misfits includes
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  Speaker 3: Tiffany Adams, Tad Cullum, Paul Grece, Cora Swombley, Cold Twombly,
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  Speaker 3: Barry Cook, and Lacey Cook, and is anti government with
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: a religious affiliation, hosting weekly meetings at Twombly's and Cook's residences.
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  Speaker 3: The leader of God's Misfits is in South Carolina, a
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  Speaker 3: man who goes by the name Squirrel. He says the
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  Speaker 3: murder suspects are not affiliated with him or his group,
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  Speaker 3: and he has no relationship with them without equivocation, Squirrel says,
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  Speaker 3: the God that I serve condemned such hate.
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  Speaker 2: Joining me right now is the founder of God's Misfits,
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  Speaker 2: who goes only by the name Squirrel. Mister Squirrel, why
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  Speaker 2: do you say these people that are holding weekly God's
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  Speaker 2: Misfit group meetings in their homes are not part of
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  Speaker 2: your group, God's Misfits.
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  Speaker 6: So I've just recently learned we're international national, which for national,
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  Speaker 6: it's just minimal life.
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  Speaker 7: And it was just me before I remarried. If people
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  Speaker 7: actually go on my Facebook.
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  Speaker 6: And website and everything and read, they realize I'm not
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  Speaker 6: in with that kind of hate, and I tell you
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  Speaker 6: something else. Scripture says that whoever takes God's name in
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  Speaker 6: vain will not be held countless. They have taken God's
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  Speaker 6: name in vain. When they have taken God's name owned
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  Speaker 6: their heinous, demonic, hateful act, This is a hate crime.
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  Speaker 7: And no, I don't have a chapter. Why would I
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  Speaker 7: have a chapter.
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  Speaker 6: There's only two of us, there's no chapters, there's no
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  Speaker 6: I'm not the originator, It's just me. I'm just trying
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  Speaker 6: to put videos out there, sharing the love with Jesus,
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  Speaker 6: sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I don't know
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  Speaker 6: how a cult comes up with their names. You know,
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  Speaker 6: a cult chose God's misfits. Well, I wanted to change
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  Speaker 6: it to something like maybe God's misfits of Jesus Christ
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  Speaker 6: or something.
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  Speaker 7: Will they won't follow me in that area.
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  Speaker 6: Guarantee you theyd before God one day they can allow. Oh,
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  Speaker 6: they want to face this nerve, but they can't lie
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  Speaker 6: to a God that knows exactly what's in their heart,
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  Speaker 6: knows exactly what they've done.
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  Speaker 7: And they think they can get by all the grace
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  Speaker 7: of God. Well, They've taken God's name in vain and
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  Speaker 7: posted on this thing. Is that that they did?
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  Speaker 2: I think that I would do a complete overhaul with
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  Speaker 2: the name, because that name God's Misfits has been totally
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  Speaker 2: contorted and is now associated with the double murder of
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  Speaker 2: two young moms. I get where you're going that somehow
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  Speaker 2: God and Christ could take the worst of us and
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  Speaker 2: turn us into something new and wonderful. This has totally
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: destroyed that concept. Now do you have any idea why
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  Speaker 2: they would pick your coult to claim there excuse me
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  Speaker 2: your group to be associated with.
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  Speaker 7: All thank fear is the devil?
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  Speaker 6: Well Satan all they have or Satan is chosen me
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  Speaker 6: to try to smeart something on me. I think maybe
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  Speaker 6: God's got something bigger in store for me and my wife.
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  Speaker 7: We know that we I'm a getting short. It's getting worse.
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  Speaker 8: Out here every day.
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  Speaker 7: The evilness is out here. And then when the evilness
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  Speaker 7: claims to be from God.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, hold on just a moment, squirrel, let me advise you,
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  Speaker 2: and I see no reason what you would ever be
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: called in court as it relates to this case. But
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: if you do, do not say the devil did it? Okay,
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: because no jury's going to believe that. But Mster world
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  Speaker 2: in a nutshell? Did these people ever contact you by phone,
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  Speaker 2: by email, by letter. Have you ever met them? Have
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  Speaker 2: you had any contact with them at all?
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  Speaker 1: Prior to learning all of this.
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  Speaker 7: I didn't know him. I never heard of him.
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  Speaker 6: I had no way to know that my name had
• 12:20
  Speaker 6: made it down there, that they were getting smeared. I
• 12:22
  Speaker 6: didn't know anything was happening at all. But no, I
• 12:26
  Speaker 6: didn't know those folks.
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  Speaker 7: I didn't have any idea at all until they started
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  Speaker 7: coming Airway.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
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  Speaker 2: Could these two moms be buried alive? Could that have
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: happened in Jilly and Kelly and Veronica Butler ambushed on
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  Speaker 2: the side of a rural road, diverted and then murdered?
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: Or were they murdered there?
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  Speaker 2: Were they murdered right there where their car was found abandoned,
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  Speaker 2: Huge pools of blood outside the car along with one
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  Speaker 2: of the mom's glasses near a broken hammer with me
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  Speaker 2: and all Star panel to make sense of what we
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: know right now.
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  Speaker 1: But first I'm going to go out to Lauren Conlin.
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  Speaker 2: Could you explain again where is the hole where the
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: moms were found at the bottom covered? It had to
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  Speaker 2: be close to a ton of dirt cement chunks and
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: then smoothed over with Hay on top where exactly was
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: that as it relates back to the abandoned vehicle.
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  Speaker 4: So it was about eight and a half miles away
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  Speaker 4: from where the abandoned vehicle was found. And Tad Cullum
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  Speaker 4: had rented this pasture. So he had rented a skin
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  Speaker 4: steer and he dug, as you mentioned, about ten feet
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  Speaker 4: underground and then covered it with hay and with cement
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: chunks and again disturbed soil. And so he had rented
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: this skid steer and the person who owned the property
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  Speaker 4: noticed that it was gone on the morning of the thirtieth,
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: but there were skid steer tracks and listen people after
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  Speaker 4: the women disappeared, people that had asked Tad, they had asked,
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: you know, others, hey, did you have this any involvement
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: in this? And Tad got nervous and he actually said
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: to the property owner, look, will you just say that
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: I did some work here because it looks weird that
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: the skid steer is gone. And the property owner said, yes,
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  Speaker 4: I will no problem.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Joining me is doctor Kendall, Crown's chief medical Examiner Terrance County,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: that's Fort Worth and lecturer at the Burnette School of
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Medicine TCU.
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  Speaker 1: Doctor crowns, thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know yet whether the moms were shot dead
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  Speaker 2: and exanguinated blood out based on the huge amount of
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: blood found at their abandoned vehicle. The mom's vehicle and
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: the window is either shot out or beaten out on
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  Speaker 2: the driver's side, but that amount of blood may signify
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: they blood to death right there.
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  Speaker 1: If not, how can we.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Tell if the moms were still alive when they were
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: buried at the bottom of that ten foot hole.
• 15:27
  Speaker 9: There's a couple of ways. That's if they're still alive,
• 15:29
  Speaker 9: they could inhale the dirt and then have dirt in
• 15:32
  Speaker 9: their mouth and in their nasal passages. Also, if they
• 15:37
  Speaker 9: inhale it deeply enough, it'll be in like their mainstem bronchi,
• 15:40
  Speaker 9: which is the large bronchi taking air to your lungs.
• 15:44
  Speaker 9: Another way is if they're beaten in the head and
• 15:47
  Speaker 9: their sinus passage is also struck with the skull, the
• 15:51
  Speaker 9: hemorrhage will then leak into the mouth and nose, and
• 15:54
  Speaker 9: then they will inhale blood and you'll see a pattern
• 15:57
  Speaker 9: of blood in the lung It's called leopard spotting and
• 16:02
  Speaker 9: the lungs and that way, you know that they've aspirated
• 16:05
  Speaker 9: the blood because they were still alive in breathing.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: Doctor Crown's joining us from the medical Examiner's office. Doctor Crowns,
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: you got me drinking from the fire hydrogen. There's just
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: too much, too fast. So doctor Crowns again, you mentioned
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: something about if they were bludding in the head, dirt
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: could leak into their nasal passages.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: You just started at the beginning.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: How can I tell if I went before a journy
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: in plain words, I don't have to be a medical doctor,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: which I'm not to understand. How can I tell if
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: these moms were alive, even if I'm conscious, if they
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: were alive when they were buried under all that dirt
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: cement chunks in hay, So if.
• 16:50
  Speaker 9: They're still breathing when they're covered in dirt, you'll you'll
• 16:53
  Speaker 9: inhanal the dirt into your lungs, so you'll see dirt
• 16:57
  Speaker 9: in the nose, you'll see dirt in the mouth and
• 17:00
  Speaker 9: as well in the passages that take air to your lungs,
• 17:03
  Speaker 9: the bronchi. Also, when head trauma, if they're hitting the
• 17:08
  Speaker 9: head or shot in the head, the nasal sinus which
• 17:11
  Speaker 9: is kind of right in this area, or the maxillary sinus,
• 17:14
  Speaker 9: nasal passages right through here are compromised. Hemorrhage goes into there,
• 17:19
  Speaker 9: and then blood comes into the airways, and then you
• 17:22
  Speaker 9: are inhaling the blood and you get heemo aspiration, which
• 17:26
  Speaker 9: is inhaling the blood, causing this geographic pattern of blood
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  Speaker 9: in the lungs which is known as leopard spotting.
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  Speaker 2: Now, if they have leffer spotting or hemo aspiration where
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: you actually breathe in blood and it makes its way
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: down to your lungs, I don't understand how that blood
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: in the lungs would.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Prove to a jury that they were buried alive.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: They could get blood to the lungs right out there
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: on the highway where they were bludgeoned, we now believe
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: with a hammer.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: How do I know if they were buried alive with that.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Hemorrhage you're talking about, which I to me means blood hemorrhage, bruise, blood,
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: blood to the head, bleeding down. And I'm extrapolating that
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: if they were buried alive, dirt would get into that
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: blood somehow, they would aspirate it and it would go
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: down with the blood and create the leopard spotting, which
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: is blood in the.
• 18:28
  Speaker 9: Lungs, so the leopard spotting would be survival after the
• 18:31
  Speaker 9: head trauma, and then if you're buried alive, the dirt
• 18:35
  Speaker 9: in the airways is what you see with individuals that
• 18:37
  Speaker 9: are buried alive.
• 18:38
  Speaker 10: So it's kind of twofold.
• 18:39
  Speaker 9: You have the hemo aspiration or leopard spotting, blood in
• 18:43
  Speaker 9: the lungs from them surviving the initial head trauma, and
• 18:47
  Speaker 9: then dirt in the airways from them being buried alive.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Doctor Kendall Crowns, I don't know how to verbalize in
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: medical speak, but in order to see or look for,
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: whether you see it or find it or not, all
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: of that. When I see autopsy photos or when I've
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: attended autopsies, there is the giant the cut from the
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: shoulders to the chest and then it turns into a
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: y where you cut down the stomach in the center
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: and you physically open the body.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Is that correct?
• 19:20
  Speaker 7: Yes?
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: Okay, So how do you see if there's dirt in
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: the bronchio nasal area that does not require additional cutting?
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Does it? You can just go like an E and
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: T and look correct.
• 19:36
  Speaker 9: Unlike an ent, we have the benefit of we can
• 19:38
  Speaker 9: remove the next structures and then see the tongue itself
• 19:43
  Speaker 9: outside of the mouth. Also, we can push the mouth
• 19:46
  Speaker 9: open and look in the roof of the mouth. You
• 19:49
  Speaker 9: can insert a nasal swab into the nasal airways and
• 19:52
  Speaker 9: pull that out, which will show dirt.
• 19:55
  Speaker 10: And then of.
• 19:55
  Speaker 9: Course removal of the brain, making an ear to ear
• 19:59
  Speaker 9: incision the scalp forward and backwards.
• 20:02
  Speaker 10: Cutting the top of the skull off.
• 20:03
  Speaker 9: Taking the brain out gives us access to the nasal
• 20:07
  Speaker 9: passages of sinuses because we can cut into the base
• 20:11
  Speaker 9: of the skull with a saw in c into those
• 20:13
  Speaker 9: as well.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: So to Tom Smith joining me, former NYPD detective co
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: host of gold Shields podcast, Tom, how long do you
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: think you and I have both dealt with buried bodies?
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Right? How long do you think it took them to
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: dig a hole ten.
• 20:33
  Speaker 10: Feet d Probably a couple of days.
• 20:37
  Speaker 11: And that goes to what you said at the beginning
• 20:40
  Speaker 11: to show the premeditation of it. This was very well
• 20:42
  Speaker 11: planned when where how all was planned out way beforehand.
• 20:48
  Speaker 11: They knew where they were going to hit them, they
• 20:50
  Speaker 11: knew what was going to take place at that scene.
• 20:52
  Speaker 11: And then getting them back to that hole that was
• 20:55
  Speaker 11: dug probably days beforehand, to utilize it in the getting
• 21:01
  Speaker 11: rid of their bodies.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: You know, Tom Smith, and I asked you.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: I did not anticipate your answer as being a couple
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: of days, But now that I think about it, you're right.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Now. We do know that one.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: Of the purps, alleged perps may have used a skid steer,
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: which is like a tractor, which aided it.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: But you're so right.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Garrett Oates is joining me high profile lawyer in this jurisdiction.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: He is.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Was Veronica Butler's lawyer during her custody battle over these children.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Garrett Oates, I don't know if this makes you consider
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: another line of business that handling divorce and custody could
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: end up in a ten foot deep hole with two mothers,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: young mothers thrown down in. They're like a sack of hay,
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: like a sack of potatoes, to the bottom of a
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: ten foot hole and in with dirt cement chunks. And hey,
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: what do you think did you ever imagine all the
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: time you've spend in law school, all the time you've
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: been in the courtroom, all the legal research, the arguments
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: you've made, that you would end up connected to a
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: case where two mothers.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: May very well have been buried alive.
• 22:20
  Speaker 12: Well, you never plan on that, Nancy, Certainly, whether you're
• 22:24
  Speaker 12: in law school, you're prepping a case up for trial,
• 22:27
  Speaker 12: or anything like that, never plan on something like this happening. However,
• 22:31
  Speaker 12: there are situations in family law, certainly where either side
• 22:36
  Speaker 12: of the aisle is capable of doing pretty heteous things
• 22:40
  Speaker 12: as was done in this case. And so, yeah, you
• 22:44
  Speaker 12: don't plan on that, but is it possible? And are
• 22:46
  Speaker 12: people capable of pretty crazy things? Absolutely?
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: There's very little that I love more than digital footprints
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: in a criminal case.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Arguably I love blood evidence more.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: But that said, I'm sure you've read the affidavit, Garrett
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Oates with your usual attention to detail. If you towards
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: the end of the affidavit really parse the words and
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: really read it critically.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: We find that the.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Cell phones the burners that Tiffany Adams grandma, the.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: So called killer Granny, bought at a.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Gun store, two of them are in one spot, one
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: of them is at another spot.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: What are the two spots.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: At the abandoned vehicle, the mom's car, while the other
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: pings are at.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: The disposal site the ten foot hole.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: So somebody's down there waiting for the purpose to show
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: up with the two dead moms, with the whole doug
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: like a grave digger outside the local Methodist church, waiting
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: for everybody to come out. And the others are up
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: there at the vehicle where things quote didn't go as planned.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Those are the words that the.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: Defendants said to a sixteen year old little girl. Well,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: it didn't go as planned. It makes it sound like
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: it's a church choir special. Didn't go exactly.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: How we plan it, but it came out all right.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: So the grave digger is down there at the whole.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Waiting for these two young moms to be brought one
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: in a flatbed want to pick up down there to
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: be thrown unceremoniously to the.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Bottom of a whole. How do I know.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: That because the affidavit tells me the burner phones were
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: into two locations simultaneously.
• 24:50
  Speaker 12: Way in the affidavit is certainly very enlightening and has
• 24:55
  Speaker 12: a lot of in depth information included in it. I'm
• 24:58
  Speaker 12: almost surprised how much information is actually included in it,
• 25:03
  Speaker 12: but I'm glad and it certainly shows the thoroughness of
• 25:06
  Speaker 12: law enforcement on this case and the investigators the joint
• 25:10
  Speaker 12: effort that was put into ensuring that when arrests were made,
• 25:14
  Speaker 12: that these defendants were not going to be able to
• 25:17
  Speaker 12: just easily get out of this.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: You know, Garrett Oaks, I agree with you. I agree
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: with you. I was also surprised at the amount of
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: detail in the affidavit.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Why because why reveal all of your cards up front?
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: All I need is a judge or a magistrate is
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: enough to issue that warrant. But they gave me a
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: plethora of information and I am learning a lot. Hey, Garrett,
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: you represented Garrett Oates, joining us everybody of Veronica Butler's
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: lawyer during her life in a very hard fought custody battle.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Garrett Oates, tell.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: Me what that battle was like for mommy Veronica Butler.
• 25:55
  Speaker 12: That custody case has been going on since twenty nineteen,
• 25:59
  Speaker 12: and I was on the hired on in.
• 26:01
  Speaker 10: September of twenty twenty three.
• 26:03
  Speaker 12: However, Veronica, when I filed my first motion in the case,
• 26:07
  Speaker 12: it was to ensure that she was getting any amount
• 26:10
  Speaker 12: of visitation with her children again, which she had been
• 26:13
  Speaker 12: deprived of since July.
• 26:15
  Speaker 8: Of twenty three.
• 26:15
  Speaker 7: And that's all in public record filings.
• 26:18
  Speaker 12: When we had our first hearing in November of twenty three,
• 26:21
  Speaker 12: Veronica was granted supervised visitation with her children on an
• 26:26
  Speaker 12: every Saturday basis, which was the pre existing order. It
• 26:29
  Speaker 12: was just not being allowed. She was being deprived of
• 26:32
  Speaker 12: that time with her children.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: Wait a minute, right there, What do you mean she
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: had visitation but it quote wasn't allowed by who?
• 26:40
  Speaker 10: Correct?
• 26:41
  Speaker 12: She had an order in existence since December of twenty
• 26:44
  Speaker 12: twenty two that granted her every Saturday visitation with her children. However,
• 26:49
  Speaker 12: that was not being allowed by Miss Adams, Miss Tiffany Adams.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: So was Tiffany Adams the granny now accused, the mother
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: in law accused of.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Your client Veronica. Is that correct?
• 27:03
  Speaker 12: That's who was not allowing the visitation between Veronica and
• 27:07
  Speaker 12: her children.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, I got another question for you, Garrett. Isn't it
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: true that the so called killer granny mother in law
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Tiffany Adams also would very often refused to let her
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: own biological son see the children.
• 27:26
  Speaker 12: That is accurate, and there was statements made on social
• 27:29
  Speaker 12: media by her own son, and in his own.
• 27:33
  Speaker 7: Words he.
• 27:35
  Speaker 12: Attested that his mother was withholding his own children from
• 27:39
  Speaker 12: him as well.
• 27:40
  Speaker 5: Associate District Judge Clerk Jet entered not guilty please on
• 27:43
  Speaker 5: the behalves of Adam's column Cora and Cole Twombly. Judge
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: Jet also assigned pro bono attorneys for each of the
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: four defendants and denied bail. According to the police affidavit,
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: the four suspects had quote resources sufficient to organize and
• 27:57
  Speaker 5: execute a complex murder, and therefore they all also had
• 28:00
  Speaker 5: their resources to flee if given the opportunity. The police
• 28:03
  Speaker 5: documents also say Adams and Culum owned numerous firearms, and
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: Culum had a rifle, ammunition, body armor, and a go
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: bag prepared at his home. Besides the multiple pools of
• 28:13
  Speaker 5: blood near the Kansas Moms, OSBI, FBI and Texas County
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: Sheriff's Department, officers find Butler's glasses on the ground near
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: a broken hammer. Jillian Kelly's purse is also found. Inside
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: the purse a gun magazine but no weapon. Police say
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: the victims were forced into another vehicle. Both the women's
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: phone stopped sending signals at nine forty two am and
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: have not been recovered. We now learn that all three
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: Burner phones bought by Tiffany Adams pined at Butler's car
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: at the time of the attack. Two of the three
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: phones pained at the ten foot deep hole. The bodies
• 28:45
  Speaker 5: covered with dirt cement chunks and covered with hay.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: The women covered with dirt cement chucks and hey.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: Back to Tom Smith, former NYPDN Coast of Gold Seals podcast,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: thinking about the time and energy it took to skid
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: steer that hole.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Have you ever driven a tractor? I have you ever
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: done that?
• 29:07
  Speaker 10: Yes?
• 29:08
  Speaker 8: I have?
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Well, for me anyway, it wasn't easy. I guess for
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: someone more experienced it is easy. But I'm just thinking
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: about with every dig and throw them back the dirt.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: He's got time to think about murdering these two unarmed moms.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: How dear he borrow a skids deer go out to
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: this land and dig a hole, knowing that two moms
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: would be thrown to the bottom of it.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Tom Smith, have you ever seen anything like it?
• 29:45
  Speaker 11: Well, it's definitely unique when you actually have so many
• 29:49
  Speaker 11: people involved as well. You know a lot of times
• 29:51
  Speaker 11: when holes are dug it's a one on one situation
• 29:54
  Speaker 11: or maybe two people. This group of people having this
• 29:58
  Speaker 11: really diabolical, waid out plan is disturbing, and like you said,
• 30:04
  Speaker 11: the hours, many hours.
• 30:06
  Speaker 10: And maybe a day or so.
• 30:07
  Speaker 11: Like I said before, to dig it gives you time
• 30:10
  Speaker 11: to think, and obviously he did not care about that.
• 30:13
  Speaker 10: They were hell bent on.
• 30:15
  Speaker 11: Taking this to this level and putting those bodies in
• 30:19
  Speaker 11: that hole.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Joining me right now, special guest Rachel Bernstein. She is
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: a cult expert and therapist host of.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: The Indoctrination podcast.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: You know, Rachel person, I've got so many questions to
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: ask you, but I just recently investigated and covered a
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: very high profile cult related case. I'm sure you're familiar
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: with cult. My Laurie Valo, take a listen to this, Rachel.
• 31:04
  Speaker 5: After meeting Chad day Bell Coltman, Laurie Valo became obsessed
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: with doomsday. In preparing for the end of the world,
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: Valo had drained her bank account and now believed she
• 31:13
  Speaker 5: was a resurrected being a goddess chosen to lead the
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: one hundred and forty four thousand alongside Chad da Bell
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: the prophet. Vallo believed she was married to day Bell
• 31:22
  Speaker 5: in the past and that she knows when the Second
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: Coming is happening. Fallow also believed that spirits or zombies
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: were ranked by a system of light and dark. Her
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: children were dark spirits, and the only way to get
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: rid of a dark spirit was to kill the human body.
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: It was in Vallo believed husband Charles Valow had been
• 31:39
  Speaker 5: taken over by a dark spirit named Nick Schneider. Charles
• 31:42
  Speaker 5: Valo was shot and killed by Laurie Valo's brother Alex.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Same thing, Rachel Burnstain, same thing. Under the cloak of
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: religion and doing God's will, two innocent people debt and
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: in that case with Colt Momlory Valo, may she wrot
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: in hell. She orchestrated the murders of her own children.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Little jj as.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: I recall, seven or eight years old with the learning disability,
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: had no idea what was about to happen. And then
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: her daughter's sixteen year old Tylely. All that was left
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: of Tyley, and it pains me to say this, by
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: learned in front of jury's You have to just say
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: it and get it out. All that was left of
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Tyley was a bucket of human flesh and fat burned.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: That's all that was left of this beautiful girl. Why
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: because they were zombies? Because Coleman. Lourie Vali was so
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: enthralled with her new husband what was it, Jackie husband
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: four or five?
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: The prophib the prophet Chad Dabiel. His wife ends up
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: dead too. He's on trial for that. But she's so
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: enamored with jumping in the sack with Chad da Bell
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: that she thinks it's okay to kill her two children
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: and was convinced she was quote a goddess chosen to
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: lead the special one hundred and forty four thousand. Well,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: if that's all it's going to happen, I'm just sol
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: here alongside the prophet, And now we've got two more
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: people murdered and disposed of like their trash, like a
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: sack of potatoes. As I said earlier, her, she's gorgeous,
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: she's full of love. All she wants to do is
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: be with her children. The other mom was a ride along,
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: helping out in a visitation. They're dead because of the
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: so called cult God's Misfits. Now, the founder says, I
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: have nothing to do with them, but I think all
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: their meetings.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: Just recover for a reason to murder the to moms.
• 34:01
  Speaker 7: Right, I agree with you.
• 34:02
  Speaker 8: Whether they're connected to the group that is called God's Misfits.
• 34:08
  Speaker 8: You know, originally or they started their own. I think
• 34:12
  Speaker 8: they felt they had permission, they had the need to
• 34:17
  Speaker 8: protect the world from these people, to protect the grandchildren
• 34:22
  Speaker 8: from these sinners.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: So I understand from our first guest, mister Squirrel, the
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: genesis of the name God's misfits. But these people banded
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: together and the same kind of anti government, anti us,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: and then they mix in a little of their home
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: cooked religion. What's your expert analysis of this.
• 34:45
  Speaker 7: Right, It is home cooked.
• 34:47
  Speaker 8: It is their own version, and it is something that
• 34:51
  Speaker 8: I think made them feel very driven to be able
• 34:55
  Speaker 8: to do something that we find horrific, but that they
• 34:59
  Speaker 8: found necessary. Groups like this have their own form of morality.
• 35:04
  Speaker 8: They feel there above the law. And also, if you're
• 35:07
  Speaker 8: anti government and you think that God talks to you,
• 35:11
  Speaker 8: then you're going to feel that you have the right
• 35:13
  Speaker 8: to take matters into your own hands, and you can
• 35:16
  Speaker 8: hide behind God when you're doing it.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: You know, in the law we call that mistake of fact,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Like you bring a truckload of cocaine across the state
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: lines and you go, oh, my goodness, I thought it
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: was a.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Truckload of turnips.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Well that's a mistake of fact, and you committed a crime.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: These people that think they're saving the earth from what
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: two unarmed moms are saving the grandchildren.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: From the two moms.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: I mean they had even had discussions about killing the
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: judge on this case, that they knew her route to
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: the courthouse. Really yeah, My question to you is this,
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Rachel Bernstein, cult expert and host of Indoctrination Podcast, this
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: is not, by any stress of the imagination, a legitimate
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: insanity defense, which means under the old Magnaughton rule brought
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: over from the UK, that you do not know the
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: difference between right and wrong at the time of the incident.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: If they had not realized that it was right or wrong,
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: they wouldn't have been so surreptitious, so secretive about.
• 36:23
  Speaker 7: It, right.
• 36:25
  Speaker 8: I think it's a very good point. When this happened,
• 36:28
  Speaker 8: I was really struck by the horrific nature of it,
• 36:31
  Speaker 8: the heartlessness of it. But it's something I see a
• 36:34
  Speaker 8: lot where people just don't have compassion for people they
• 36:39
  Speaker 8: see as less than for people they see as lacking humanity.
• 36:43
  Speaker 8: If this person, Tiffany Adams, thinks the whole world is
• 36:47
  Speaker 8: a simulation, you don't have to feel bad for killing
• 36:50
  Speaker 8: someone within that simulation because you might have convinced yourself
• 36:55
  Speaker 8: that what you're doing isn't real. I think about the days,
• 36:58
  Speaker 8: the time she spent with those grandkids, knowing she was
• 37:00
  Speaker 8: planning their mother's murder, and that she could show herself
• 37:05
  Speaker 8: to be a compassionate, loving grandmother, all the while having
• 37:09
  Speaker 8: that on her mind, knowing she's going to be robbing
• 37:11
  Speaker 8: them of their mother.
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: The four suspects are being kept in the Oklahoma, Texas
• 37:16
  Speaker 5: County Jail, but that doesn't mean they will be having contact.
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: The individuals are being separated in the ninety six bed facility. Currently,
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: the building houses forty seven inmates, thirty six men and
• 37:26
  Speaker 5: eleven women in separate sections for each gender. According to
• 37:30
  Speaker 5: the sheriff, Tad Cullum and Cole Twombly are intentionally held
• 37:33
  Speaker 5: on opposite sides of the men section, separated by four pods.
• 37:37
  Speaker 5: The women, Adams and Cora Twombly are also separated by pods,
• 37:41
  Speaker 5: ensuring no contact.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Tom Smith joining me, former NYPD co host Girlshields podcast, Tom,
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: They're going to great pains to make sure that these
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: defendants are not close to each other and are not
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: having contact.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: That is significant.
• 37:58
  Speaker 11: Why, Well, it's very significant because you want to keep
• 38:00
  Speaker 11: each story separate, and down the line, you want to
• 38:04
  Speaker 11: see which one you're going to use to roll on
• 38:06
  Speaker 11: somebody else. So you want to keep the integrity of
• 38:09
  Speaker 11: each interview on its own, so you can put it
• 38:13
  Speaker 11: together and come up with Marvus's substantial case and use
• 38:18
  Speaker 11: really rock solid.
• 38:19
  Speaker 10: Evidence and statements from each of them.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Okay, Tom Smith, I agree and disagree, But I look
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: at it like this. I don't want one of them
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: to roll over. I want them to all go down
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: for the maximum sentence, be it life without the possibility
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: of parole, or the death penalty that will be up
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: to a jury. So I don't want to go to
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: hell to get the witness to put the devil in jail.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: I want them all to go down equally in the
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: murder of these two moms.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: But the other part I agree with.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, think about it, Tom, Look what they've already
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: done when they get together and scheme, they've planned and
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: executed a double murder.
• 38:59
  Speaker 10: Yeah, it's horrible. I didn't mean to give them a deal.
• 39:01
  Speaker 11: What I just meant by that was let them talk
• 39:04
  Speaker 11: and gather more information on the event that happened and
• 39:07
  Speaker 11: the crime that happened, not to necessarily give them a deal,
• 39:10
  Speaker 11: but to make sure they give proper statements and good statements,
• 39:14
  Speaker 11: either implicating each other or who was more involved than
• 39:18
  Speaker 11: somebody else, Not to give them a deal. What's the workers.
• 39:21
  Speaker 11: I am on the same page as you. They show
• 39:23
  Speaker 11: a rod for what they did to these two poor women.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: And think about the children left behind, left behind without
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: a mom. Guys, as we wait for justice too unfold
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: and the murders of the two Kansas moms, we stop
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: and remember an American hero, Sergeant Thomas A. Sanfratello. Sergeant
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: san Fertello passes away in the line of duty, awarded
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: the Deputy of the Year twice, loved serving as New
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: York community and spending time with his three children, leaving
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: behind a significant other Cole and children, Kyla, Alexis and
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Ian American hero Sergeant Thomas A.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: San Frantillo.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: I want to thank all the guests for being with
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: us tonight, but a special thanks to you for being
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: with us tonight and every night.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off, good night,