Latest / IMI Podcasts / #20: Jeremy Savory on Running a CBI Business in Hyper-Competitive Dubai

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#20: Jeremy Savory on Running a CBI Business in Hyper-Competitive Dubai · IMI Podcasts

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Ladies and gentlemen, it's 7 p.m.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: in Dubai, 3 p.m.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: in Lisbon, 11 a.m.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: in St.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Kitts.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to a new episode of the Mobility Standard, the podcast where we dissect current events, trends, and crucial questions related to investment migration.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Christian Nissame, editor of Investment Migration Insider.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: This episode is a little bit different from what our regular listeners are used to.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: This is the first time we've done an in-person recording of the podcast right here in my office.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because my guest happened to be in town.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: As a consequence, my regular co-hosts, Ahmad and Rogelio, didn't have a chance to take part.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the in-person format worked well.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: You can let me know what you think in the comments.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, my guest in this episode was Jeremy Savory, founder of Dubai-based Investment Migration Advisory.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Savory and Partners.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: We spoke about what it's like to run a CBI firm in hyper-competitive Dubai, a city that's home to literally hundreds of CBI advisories.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: We also spoke about how that competitiveness might change once Dubai introduces a corporate tax.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about why Jeremy chose to become a resident of Portugal and spend much of the year here, and why he thinks more investment migration advisors should be doing the same.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: We discussed whether Turkey and Istanbul specifically has the potential to compete with Dubai as an investment migration hub and why the country's two-way CBI market is so unique.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: We also touched upon Latin America and explored the degree to which it can be an interesting inbound or outbound market for investment migration.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: All that and a great deal more in today's episode of the Mobility Standard.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to remind you that you can follow all of IMI stories on our website, imidailily.com, on our mobile phone apps, in our free newsletters, as well as on your favorite social media network except TikTok.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: You can also follow this podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and most other podcast platforms.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: With the preambles out of the way, let's get this show on the road.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, Jeremy, I think we're gonna start in the way that we tend to start on the mobility standard, which is I ask our guest to kind of give us a brief introduction of who they are.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: In your case, who's Jeremy Savory, where is he from?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: How do we grow up?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um what sort of career path did you have, and how did you come to run uh Savory and Partners?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh all right.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, first of all, uh Christian, thank you very much for uh letting me be the first to see where it all happens.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um I never really realized we were this many flaws underground.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you've got the permits for this.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, you don't want to get any fines, but uh but uh uh first of all, it's it's great to be here.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh big kudos for the job you're doing.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think people give you enough um respect for for what you've you've built, essentially.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: Are people disrespecting me?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm from Dubai, I'm used to that stuff, but um, but no, seriously, congratulations, and uh it's nice to be here in a in a hot and sweltering uh Lisbon uh abode.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so uh yeah, my background is uh grew up in London, specifically uh southwest London.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um never really left the UK until I was 18.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as soon as I left just on a trip, I got the bug, and since then I've just wanted to see every single country there is in the world.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, kids have held me back a little bit right now, but once it's the right time, I'll make sure they get the bug too.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the business that I started was just me and my wife meeting people in coffee shops in Dubai, and now we're up to around uh I think 50 staff globally.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh, you know, um I wouldn't have been able to do it without those key people, and especially our clients uh who are really fantastic people, and I and I really, you know, we're very client-centric, and I think that's paid dividends.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh moved to Dubai let's say 15 years ago, something like that.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then you know it's been a roller coaster since.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Dubai is is a truly unique place, um, and uh it's given me a great uh opportunity, and I think everybody else who has a CBI in Dubai would agree with that as well.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, however, Portugal has also become our second home, and I look forward to talking more about all things uh uh Lucifile with you later.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um should mention um as you point out that uh this is the first time we're doing an in-person podcast.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: I usually do these these podcasts, I do them uh online.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um this is the first time we've done uh an in-person podcast.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're here in my office in in Lisbon.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um you're I so I guess we can reveal uh I'm a rather private person, but it's true I'm I'm now a resident of lovely Portugal, as are you.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um I've outed you.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: You've outed me.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: You have, you have indeed.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Someone had to.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: There are worse things to be outed about.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um subjectively speaking.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me a little bit about your journey to becoming a resident in Portugal.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you straddle both worlds a little bit, spent some time in in Dubai and some time in Portugal.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: How does that work?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I mean, uh, you know, I have a South American uh partner, and um, so we've always kind of had a little bit of a cosmopolitan view on life, especially with my kids being born in Dubai, and you know, my my passion for different cultures and travel.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Portugal came across through various different reasons.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh I and I think just the best is to look at where we are today and how many years that we've been uh resident of Portugal.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's really helped a lot in terms of the business, talking for talking first hand.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't know of any other companies that can talk with the same level of firsthand experience that I can.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's really a fantastic country.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's not all hype.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: I've you know I'm I'm a dual citizen, I speak three languages.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I know very well Europe, I bought and sold many properties across Europe.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I I'm not just picking it out and saying it's those languages are English, Spanish, and French, correct?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you're dual you're a citizen of France.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: France and the UK.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And now you say you say that um you don't know if there are too many companies that uh can speak with genuine experience when it comes to uh being a resident of Portugal.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Are you saying that um not not that many people in the industry actually take up residence here?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: That I'm aware of, I definitely I'm not aware of.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's probably like a few Turkish partners of yours who who are vertically integrated, they've become developers here.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think you know there's there's some of those guys that are here, but as far as I know from the Middle East, I I don't think there's anybody else actually.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right um, I might have some Russian partners that have come recently and and what have you, but I'm pretty sure, and I'd like to think I've got my finger on the pulse in in the in the MENA CBI.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty sure I'm the only one.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh I didn't see anyone else in the streets of Lisbon uh recently.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Although there is one uh chap I do know, uh Nicholas, uh he is a resident here, um, but he's not an agent, he's uh he's uh essentially a developer, I'd say.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um actually just as soon as we moved to Lisbon, I bumped into him in a restaurant.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um Salerno.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: Correct, right?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um sorry for outing you as well.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sorry, Nicholas.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: This is going so well.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um so um, and uh so you know when we're talking about Portugal, I was like, oh, Portugal this, Portugal that.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's like there's a lot of things, um, there's many levels, many layers to to life in Portugal, um, in terms of you know, the climate, the weather, the safety, but also just the anecdotes and the minutiae of life that it's just um it's just really important when you're talking to clients because it is a residency program, it does take a long time.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we've just done so many applications and and I've just I've gone through it myself.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I went to do my residency appointment in Averro.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how many people can non-Portuguese people can talk with authority about what Averro is like?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the first time I went there, I couldn't believe it.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's basically uh it's like they say, it's um it's the Venice of Portugal, it's a stunning place.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody told me that.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't even know there were ski resorts here, and I went skiing.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I didn't know.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: So right, so to prove my point, it's just like you have to be here a lot to really explore and understand just so many uh parts of Portugal that are really amazing.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: You can talk about the the weather and the safety and and the food and that, but there's just other things out there, and um, and to be honest with you, coming back on this trip, it's really great to be here and just you know see all the places I went, all the restaurants I know, all the you know, the the shortcuts or the the shortcuts that are that have been blocked off now.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's and and I'm sure you agree with me.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: There's look, no place is a paradise, no place is perfect, but I I I can having spent so much of my life in Spain, in France, uh business in Italy, Eastern Europe, um there's a lot of positives here.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Portugal definitely ticks a lot of boxes.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh nonetheless, you you do keep a foot in Dubai, and uh that I guess is because it is a good place to do business.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um you can you can say what you know there are many there are many positives about Portugal, but I don't think anybody would dispute that setting up and running a business is probably a lot easier in Dubai, especially considering the the absence of taxes.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the for now.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: For now, yes.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's uh what is it?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: They're raising a debt.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Although it's not 100% like signed off.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's not set in stone.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's a lot of things changing right now, but it's very fluid.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Things like the golden visa, things like the corporation tax.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um so, but you know, eventually we're moving in that direction.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, a lot of the whole reason the buyers evolved to be it's kind of the trade hub, the travel hub that it is today, uh the financial hub, it's because of you know the direction the country wants to go in.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, population is coming, a population is a is a taxable population, right?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: We don't know the future, but you know, I remember when they introduced 5% VAT a few years back.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was just like everyone just went nuts.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like people are not paying that.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you know, you've got to pay it, that's that's what it's there for.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's coming from your pocket.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: So we're moving in that direction.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I suppose people feel uh kind of um deceived in the sense that they've they've been they've been attracted to Dubai primarily because of the absence of tax.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then now that you're there, you've set up your company and and you've you know put down some roots maybe and established yourself.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now now they're going to suddenly introduce taxes.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that was that was the primary driver of interest in Dubai to begin with, no?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's one of the main drivers, yeah, you're right.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think at the same time also, um uh you also have to look at the fact that things change in any country.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, look at developers in Portugal, for example, who uh you know had a business model built on doing uh residential properties at uh 500,000, they introduced the law and then suddenly now they have to wrap a lot of their real estate into funds.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so these things will happen at any stage.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I get what you're saying, you know, the the whole you know, inverted commerce tax-free uh thing, but I think uh I think it's look, there's a lot of other positives right now.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think 5% VAT and 9% corporate tax is is still in the grand scheme of things.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: There's I mean, I've seen Dubai evolve so much, I'm not even with that alone.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: 15 years is is long, but for some people is it's not that long.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's achieving so much, it's changing so many things.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, we're talking about uh you know the travel access.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, you're talking about the the crypto, the way it's embracing uh crypto, talking about um you know the the real estate market, the golden visa, the way that they're changing the way that they provide residency.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Before it was either you're employed or you're an employer.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Now it's attached to property, now it's attached to talent, now it's attached to uh significant investments.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Your education correct, yeah, special uh dispensations, uh you know, some people even getting, you know, like when I got my golden visa, it was it was it was an ad hoc process, you know, it wasn't even through any of the categories.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: So um so that type of thing is really um there's a lot to be said for for Dubai, but again, you know, no country is perfect, but the possibility the negatives so because there are so many positives about uh you know setting up and running a business in Dubai, that's very easy.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So uh but the barriers to entry in the CBI market are low.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um anybody with a laptop essentially can set up a CBI company, and they often choose to do that in Dubai because a lot of the customer base it either is in Dubai or swings by Dubai, um, and and it's it's an easy place to get started.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of CBI talent in Dubai, let's not forget that.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's so many people there who have um you know come come up through the ranks in the CBI companies and and they still live in Dubai.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you running a CBI company in Dubai, um it's a hyper competitive place.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: How do you deal with that?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: How do you kind of stay ahead?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um could considering it it's so easy for somebody to start up and compete?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, I mean, well, look, easy is like I said, it's going to change once corporation tax comes in.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, easy is only easy when it's not hyper competitive.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Now it is hyper-competitive, so it was easier.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um now it's less easy because again, you know, there is demand, but there's also a hell of a lot more competition than there was.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's a very finite, you know, in terms of the size of the country and number of players, we're all on top of each other.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know, I know like two or three towers, or there's like four CBI companies in that one tower.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's an interesting uh coffee uh break, uh cigarette break.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: So um so you get that type of uh situation, but I think uh look, I mean, it's not it's not a licensed industry, um, and that also dilutes the quality, it also dilutes unfortunately a lot of the ethics involved.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think as any business owner in any industry, you can't control the things you can't control.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: All you need to do is is see it as a as a challenge, as a hurdle, as an obstacle, and it and it pushes you to try and think you know, better.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and my personal opinion is that I think it's a good thing.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, we can sit and cry about it, or we can just go, all right, well, you you wake up the next day and you think how you can be better.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and for some CEOs and and some business owners, it's a it's a it's a battery for them, it's an energy that just makes them go, well, you know, what how do I how do I improve?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you uh be what do you do to be better than the company?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: How do you differentiate yourself?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, you can you can try to compete on price, you know, reducing your margins, but at some point there's no more margin to eat into.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um so what do you do to stay ahead?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Diversify your talent, diversify your products, um, diversify your messaging, um, you know, um improve your internal controls, uh, improve your uh, you know, it's it's nothing new.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's just this is just the things you need to do in the face of uh challenges like this.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: So and I'm not the only one, everyone is going to be the same, and I think for those people starting up in this industry, you know, I I I I think about stress today, and I think about worries, and I think about you know headwinds.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: When I compare it to when I started out, just trying to get my first client, you know, that client was you know, make or break.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I still talk with my my colleagues who've been with me all the way through this journey, and we we laugh about you know like just how stressed we were because every client was just it was sink or swim.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, now today it's not that.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: So once you know what a real problem is, you know what this is, and it's just uh it's an evolution, and and I think uh it will keep on going that way.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think I can't remember who it was, but I think somebody, maybe yourself or somebody else, said that they they will see a kind of um uh a gap widening between the the very large players and the startups, and that the middle ones will just either gravitate up or gravitate down.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Come on, you said that.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um it wasn't me because I am not sure that, and I've written about this before, I'm not sure that there are necessarily economies of scale in investment migration.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's a it's an advantage to be a big company.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, usually when the the types of industries where economies of scale is useful is when you uh, for example, you're competing on price, like your grocery store chains, right?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you become a huge grocery store chain, you can you can buy uh in bulk uh a lot of products and therefore you can drive down the price, right?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a limit to how how cheaply you can provide CVI advisory services, right?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I don't I'm not sure that uh it pays to be big in investment migration.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure it's natural.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing is, let's say you are really big and you have offices all around the world, just by virtue of the um the local differences, the local cultural differences, the differences in circumstances in each country, you kind of as a big global CBI company, you're kind of forced to delegate uh a great deal to, you know, and trust the individual judgment of whoever's running your your Beirut office or your uh Kuala Lumpur office.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if it comes down to it, you know, they'll probably have a different recollection than you of who really built that office, right?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean that's just people, right?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, if one has a different perspective, and uh you'll have people who just you know that just the other day, literally I think a week ago, there's a guy who was messaging me and saying, like, I need an opportunity, like, have you got an opening, have your opening, like really aggressively?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: And six months ago, he joined a very large direct rival of ours, and and that was after we kind of had a I kind of didn't really take it that forward.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: So just in six months, he went to, you know, we said no, he went to join a direct rival.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he's now six months later saying it's not how it worked out, and I want to join you guys.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, you know, listen, you know, you need to kind of put your roots down and pick where you want to be, but it's also the responsibility of the company to kind of like map out uh a vision for them.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, you can get it wrong on recruitment, it's nothing new.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's why we have probation periods.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you're from Southwest London, right?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you come from a let's say a quote-unquote nice business culture, uh, if we can call it that.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, do you think that, you know, you've you've been 15 years in Dubai now, but do you think that you were have you become hardened by it?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh because you'll you're crashing up against certain like there's a lot of different cultures in Dubai from all around the world, and some of them come from business environments where playing nice is not really par for the course.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh whereas in you know northwestern Europe, uh very often, you know, people kind of play by the rules and or what are yeah, go for a round of golf and then slap each other on the back and they say you win some, you lose some.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Queensbury rules, right?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um you think were you naive when you came to Dubai?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and have you had experiences that kind of made you more jaded, or how has it changed?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think I think you're talking from a from a perspective that you already know the answer, because you speak with a lot of agents, uh, you pick up everything that's on the grapevine.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't I think your your levels of disbelief has the threshold of disbelief has kind of augmented, right?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah over the years.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so you know already the answer to this is that yeah, like you're dealing in different business cultures, it's always eye-opening, it's also exciting as well.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if I was to write a biography about this industry, I think it'd do pretty well because I've seen so and and experienced so many things that are truly just like you can make it up, yeah, and then you just talk about life in the Middle East and and and just generally just travel in general, and you have a very interesting uh story.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it does uh it does uh you know.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: My wife's been with with me on on this journey, and you know, you come home and we'll have dinner and we'll just you know have a glass and then we'll talk about it, and you know, it nothing surprises her anymore.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing surprises her, but again, I don't know if that's Middle East business culture, I don't know if that's our industry.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, but I'm not saying Middle East necessarily, I'm just saying Dubai is a hub for different nationalities, yeah, yeah, all kinds of things and nationalities clash.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And nationalities clash and and and very Often, if you have you know people come from a culture where they they play nice in business, and people come from a culture where they don't play nice in business, the lowest common denominator might win.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: But in you know, in the UK and and in France, they also have people that don't play nice.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's again, is it an amalgamation of all these things?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: Is it is it perspective?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: Is it just I'm incredibly naive or I'm incredibly hardened?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I I don't I don't think there's any simple answer to that.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I do think that uh I know I'm only talking within the bubble of CBI.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a long, long, long way to go from the things that I've seen to something which I think clients should have trust in.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're having trust because most clients, most sorry, agents provide what they are retained to provide.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: However, the things that I've seen on that whole journey, I think leave a lot to be desired.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we should all we should all go back to thinking about that.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because ultimately we the client, the client, it, you know, people say the client is always right.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that's true because if the client is not fully informed about the requirements, about the horizon, about the facts, then he's only as right as what he knows.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I think if you educate the client about actually everything that's out there, about the good, the bad, and and the ugly, then the client will know if he's right in making his decision.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think for us as as agents, we have to raise ourselves higher.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: But again, I'm only talking about my experiences within, and again, I say the vibe, our clients are over 50 different nationalities, our competitors are 50 different nationalities.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I'm I don't know what it'd be like in Portugal or the UK.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think if people play any fairer or any better, it's down to the individuals and the way that they want to um to communicate with their clients, communicate with their staff, communicate their philosophies.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: So before we uh started recording, we chatted about uh how Latin Americans are increasingly buying property in well they've always been buying property in Miami, but now they're also increasingly buying it in Madrid.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you said it's it's like with your clients in the Middle East, uh, practically every one of them, the first place they buy international property is in Dubai.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I asked you, do you think that maybe Turkey will start playing that role in the Middle East as well?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: And my impression is that you're quite bullish on Turkey.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: How do you feel about Turkey as an investment migration destination, as a real estate investment destination, um, and as a hub generally for the Middle East?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think with Turkey is that, you know, and I won't be the first uh external observer to see this, but no one really knows where that country is going because it's in a very unusual situation where you have you know someone that is doing everything they can to stay within power.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh and and and usually when these things unfold, it's it's usually not very pretty.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: So you have that in the short term.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um but so you so and and you've got that uncertainty and and just you know you don't know where you're going.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: You look at inflation there, which is just unbelievably high, you see uh so you see that to one side.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: On the other side, uh you see you know those that are holding the dollars have you know there's there's an amazing quality of life, so it's almost similar to Portugal in terms of like you know, it it Portugal was and to a certain extent is very affordable.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um so when you can go to Turkey, there's a lot of people that dig that culture better than they dig uh Portuguese culture.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I was there not too long ago and I was with a guy then, he's like, No, I don't like Portugal, I hate Portugal, but I love Turkey because I like, I don't know, you know, the culture, the food, the religion, you know, what have you.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but now it's at$400,000 for real estate.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's a bit of a you know, that you have to put it in on the shelf next to everything else and see where it is.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: But definitely, um, I was impressed by the accessibility that it has with Turkish Airlines.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think some people get a bit carried away with that.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think you also have to look at, you know, if you speak to people that live in Turkey, they say that it's a it's it's on a big anti-immigration push, um, which they foresee getting worse if uh Erdogan is no longer in charge.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: So if that's gonna happen, then you know a lot of those people that are you know interested in CBI, so the diasporas, the non-residents, you know, where are they gonna be at that stage then?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um so is there gonna be any demand there?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: If there isn't any demand for that because they're not there anymore and therefore they're you know they've found a solution by then or they've had to go back to where they're from, then you're looking on Turkish nationals who are looking to do it.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: If Turkish nationals' um concerns and through Well, it's a it's a big both inbound and outbound market.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's also interesting about Turkey in terms of investment migration.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well, here's the thing is like you know, going to what I was saying about Turkish nationals, Turkish nationals, if there is demand coming from there, it's because they see the direction this country is going in.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's fear-driven decisions.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: If Erdogan is no longer in charge and the next people that come in are actually uh, you know, they see that it's actually a bit more, I don't know, run a bit better, then maybe that demand will subside.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we've seen this in other countries where basically, I'm trying to think of examples right now, but where it was very unstable, there was demand, and then afterwards now it's a bit there's less demand because they're like, well, it's okay right now, and the need has disappeared.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: So you've got so if this that's the Turkish nationals, and then that's what happens with the non-residents, this election could basically, depending who the winner is, it could basically just make it an even better market, a stronger market, or it could make it a market that doesn't have the need.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'll give you an example.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: But but sorry, but don't you think that the things that make it a strong inbound market are diametrically opposed to the things that make it a strong outbound market?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, if Turkey domestically is unstable, it becomes a big outbound market.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if it's stable, yeah, it can become a big inbound market.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, but at$400,000, are we gonna see the demand at$250?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh whereas with Portugal, comparing it as you know, they're not completely the same, but Portugal, everyone, I I know people that are extremely high up in terms of uh real estate asset management uh companies who told me in November property prices are gonna drop like up to 30%.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: And he he's no clown, like he's really at the top of his game.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: He's sorry, what's gonna drop?
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: He said property prices would drop in November last year before they changed the legislation that you you know coastal areas to non-residential properties.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: He said the property prices would drop up to 30% in 2022.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, we're seeing it going up 10-15%.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: So if anything, it hasn't really changed anything at all.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, the the the the you know the speculators got it wrong.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: With Turkey, are we gonna get more people doing it at 400,000 than 250,000?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's too soon to say.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: But once you're at$400,000, you know, for a citizenship which doesn't give you Schengen, um, you're right.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: If it is a stable uh country and it has got great potential, yes, they will.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: But at$400,000 compared to what else you can get at that price point.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: Look, if Portugal increases the price and Greece increases its price, okay, that's something different.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: These are residency programs and one's a passport program.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: But we but we were, I mean, I think most industry observers were surprised uh at the volume of interest or the volume of applications that Turkey received, even at 250,000.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they released very few statistics, but the the you know, from time to time the Interior Ministry will tweet some uh total cumulative number, and based on that we can uh triangulate a uh figure uh on how many they do a year.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: And at one point in 2020, they were doing 1,300 approvals a month for citizenship by investment, which is like you know, what what some of the Caribbeans do Caribbean I was doing a year, uh and this is at 250,000 and without Schengen.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: So um I'm not I'm not sure that we should discount Turkey uh but you think that there'll be close enough to the same demand at 400,000?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: No, obviously it should be you know if nothing else changes, setteris parabas, uh, and you raise the price from 250 to 400, that should slow demand.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm saying if you have if you have like explosive demand at 250,000 and the interior ministry is basically working, you know, firing on all cylinders just to keep up with the application volume, maybe it makes sense to raise the the price, right?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and and here we are today in Portugal where we're having you know a lot of delays and backlogs because it's a victim of its own success.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I can't see the US market that's red hot for for Portugal going to Turkey in a hurry.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I can't see Brazilians, uh maybe other demographics.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's a few places Russians can go right now, so Turkey could be it and is one of the main beneficiaries right now.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I I also think as well, we can't just look at an isolation, oh, okay, is it 250 and it goes up to 400?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's a big price difference.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, but number one, in the context of what's already out there right now, right?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: But also what's going to be out there in the future.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's a lot of talk of Greece increasing the prices, Montenegro will finish within uh the next few months.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, uh there might ostensibly, yeah.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, it could be another uh Antigua, right?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so you know, again, this market changes so quickly.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, there's no point trying to foresee all that type of stuff.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I I do share your uh your view that basically there is demand for Portugal, but I think in the short term it's far too soon to say number one because of the the the price change.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like sorry, you're saying uh there is demand for Turkey.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: You mean Turkey, yeah.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: You said Portugal.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm sorry.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm such a loose file.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but um so look, number one is gonna be like let's just see how demand is at 400.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: I know that there's there's definitely gonna be some pullback, however, I know some clients who are saying, well, I've done 250, but you know, um my friend wants to do it, my friend's saying well it's 400 now, and he still wants to do it.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: Again, also remember 400,000, you're not paying 400,000 for 250,000 property, you're paying 400,000 for a 400,000 property, so you're just buying more property for it.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and there's never a bad reason to buy property, right?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: So again, there's that.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: However, my my feeling is just I think let's just wait and see how this this election pans out and what comes in.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, maybe things will change completely, maybe things will get worse.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I agree with your point, which is that it's it's one of those few CBI and and and RBI destinations where you can literally where you've just got you know two-way traffic.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you've got I've got clients come to my office and say that I want to do Turkey, and I've got Turkish clients come to me and say I want to do something else.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it it's it's unique in that.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, even yeah, because no matter what happens, there's a Turkish CBI market.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Correct, right?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: But whether you want to be physically based there, right, I'm not really sure.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because let's say you're a CBI company, you're gonna be physically based there, but people are looking to be buying real estate.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: The number of people that are buying real estate in Turkey through a CBI company is is minute compared to the others that don't.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, it could be something that would have great potential for Turkey, but it's also like, you know, again, there's just too many other variables to say.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: So earlier this week we um provided some analysis where we looked at the 62 uh we we identified 62 firms that we call international RCBI specialists, and that's companies that have A, uh at least 10 employees, B, they are present uh in more than one country, C, they are uh they offer a diversified range of programs.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um those companies, among those companies, the we we looked at okay, where do they have offices and which markets are they present, right?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and we we did this last year as well, so we had some grounds for comparison this year.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now, obviously, among those international RCBI firms, uh, number one is still Dubai.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um like far and away, by far, um, they're the dominant hub for that.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: But the fastest growing ones are Istanbul and Lisbon.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what's why why do you think that there is a there is a rush to open offices in Istanbul?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, is that a recognition of this two-way market that you're talking about?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's that's very interesting.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean honestly, I I think I think it really depends.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you have every agent has their own client base, everyone has their own strategy, um, they have their own makeup of nationalities within their teams.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think Portugal's uh hub came about, I think because for the same reason it's you know every you know why we're here, why everybody else is here, is because you know most of the programs are where people are looking for citizenship or residency.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's there's a concentration within the Caribbean, and then you've got probably you know, you've got Malta, Cyprus, uh Turkey over the years that you would have all these different other places.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I you know, if you needed a hub, I would say going back to your point in terms of accessibility, yeah.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, Dubai has accessibility, Istanbul has accessibility, but uh Dubai has accessibility for all those markets that are that are in demand.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you've got like the Indian subcontinent, you've got Africa, you've got uh you've got um uh Russia, the stance.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, if you go to Istanbul, I don't know if you're gonna have the same sort of thing, it could well be.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh again, I I just think that rather than everyone just steam in, we're just steam into the next Dubai, and then we look at where the situation Dubai is that you know you're just gonna steam into another hyper uh competitive market.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: It might make more sense to probably you know focus on other areas and and and try and be a leader in in smaller countries.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Big fish and a small bowl type of thing, right?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is what Harvey Law Group has been very, very successful at uh over the years.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: They've basically been the only CBI firm in town in in a lot of small to medium-sized countries, particularly in in Asia.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that yes, that's an interesting strategy.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um we've also seen that a lot of companies have moved into Nigeria, and I'm not sure there is that that that market is as big.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's of course there's you know 200 million people or whatever, but when you look at the number of high net worth individuals and the growth trends in that market, I'm not sure that the data bear out a need for you know that many.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, this this reinforces my point.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's just that in our industry, because you know, there's companies popping up every single day.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: So the first thing they do is like, where's everybody else?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's some companies which I tip my hat to and they went in a different direction, but the vast majority, they're just like, well, if these guys are there, we need to be there too.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, okay, well, number one, how long have they been there?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: And is it too late maybe to be in there?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and second of all, um, is there any money to be made there?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's a few countries where there's huge demand, huge demand, but it doesn't make any sense to to set up a base there, recruit people, run you know, online, offline advertising, uh, you know, work on um B2B.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like it the numbers just don't make any sense.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: So you just might as well just say, you know what, let other people do it, and then try and go and be, as you mentioned, uh uh try and get into those countries where there aren't people.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you can also diversify you know your collaborations.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, again, we're talking about geographies, but it's more about geographies, it's about your products, about who your partners uh are, you know, which which areas, you know, like somebody was telling me that they're dealing a lot with you know uh you know US attorneys, or they're dealing with uh uh real estate brokers, they're dealing with uh different consumers.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's everyone gets business from many different ways.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: Networking, for example, um there's many different ways.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think just trying to find a country and go there because you think it's the next uh gold rush, right?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's it, you know, you've just got to look at the numbers and decide if it's worth it.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: And and I can talk from personal experience where it's like there's countries where you know there is demand, we know that there's there's you know, we could do something there.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: Is it worth throwing all the resources in, or is it better just looking somewhere else?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's better looking somewhere else, but each to their own.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: And and and some countries also they just want to be pretty much everywhere, and some companies they they just say, I just want to stay here and uh and I'll change my model in a different way rather than geographically.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we've seen some of the most successful companies have uh actually done very well by consolidating.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: So there are some big RCBI, very big RCBI firms that used to have offices you know in every corner of the globe, and now they've sort of consolidated and said, no, we're gonna focus on the you know the core markets where we really get uh a bang for our our buck in terms of investment.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Which companies are that?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't want to say because uh you you you can see if you read our analysis from earlier this week on how much we should website called you.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: Check it out.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, check it out.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, there are some that used to have many offices and now they have fewer.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's interesting.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not because business is any worse, it's because it just looks at the numbers and just go, you know what, and the risk reward and the right.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's spin off this one, right?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I want to talk a little bit about Latin America.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: You have uh what we call a vinculation um with uh that that uh continent uh through your your wife and managing partner Helena.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um you what do you think of that as that's also interesting because it's all you know, you said you say Turkey is one of the few inbound and outbound markets, but so is Latin America in some ways.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's it's an outbound market for RCBI, uh for the people who are from there, uh, in a lot of cases.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's inbound for especially Central America is inbound, uh Nicaragua, Costa Rica.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um people are doing residency climates in those cases.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so people are doing Americans are retiring in in a you know warmer climate, cheaper uh place, they get a lot of real estate for their money, especially Costa Rica.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: So uh just Latin America is obviously a very broadly defined um geography, but how do you feel about it in terms of whether it's inbound or outbound market?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I don't think it's a market, uh, and I hope to be wrong, definitely be in my interest, but uh I don't think it's a market that I foresee any anything changing.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't see it definitely in terms of inbound.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um look, you know, Venezuela has a it's always been an odd one because it's just had for a long time, it was the only company uh country in South America that had Schengen visa-free.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: When, you know, everyone can see on the news that it's it's it's it's a it's a it's a it's a situation right there.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: But but now they practically all have visa-free for that.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: But at that time, you know, the one you know, the one country that had the strongest passport on the continent was actually the one which was just going to hell in a basket.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh, and that's why when you went all around uh uh Spain, for example, or even you know UK or even uh Portugal, you just see Venezuelans everywhere.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh uh but now if you're asking me if there's other any of those nationalities that want to uh to to look at uh countries, I I don't think I mean a Brazil for Portugal is a bit of an obvious one, but for South Americans to invest in real estate to obtain nationality, if they've already got Schengen and it's I don't see too much turmoil there, then what are the drivers for them?
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if it's to buy in in Spain, as we're discussing earlier, so that you can have something at least overseas in a euro-denominated currency, um, you know, where potentially you can get good non-resident finance options, um, you know, good yields, uh, you know, have something a little bit out of your country just to be on the safe side.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I can, but um, I just from my experience, I don't see huge market.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, in our in our company that I cannot, I think we do one Venezuelan guy.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's probably the only South American client we've ever had.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other reason, uh, you know, apart from the fact that they have passports with high uh mobility, uh, visa-free access to Schengen, is that you know, another reason why it's not a big market for RCBI is that a lot of the people who have money in Latin America also have European ancestry.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: So they uh very often they're able to get citizenship in uh EU countries, for example.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I agree with you that I know I don't think it's gonna be a big outbound market.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's after all, you know, it's only 400 million people, um, which is you know, it's not a big it's 5% of the world population.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: It probably has other immigration demands, but it's just not really at CBI level.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I could very well see it becoming a big inbound market because I do think that the Western Hemisphere is going to be relatively more stable.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: We than the We had a very interesting dinner over this, and uh and your views on the North and the South Hemispheres and the way that the world is works and us as cogs and a giant machine.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that was a very interesting uh view on uh on um you know food sustainability and and and so on.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: I look uh I can definitely say you know Colombia's uh uh got a lot of uh um a lot of positive things about it.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: I I see you know one particular uh blogger you know say it's got the best real estate uh investment market uh going globally.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: Who's saying this?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I can't remember the guy's name, but uh I just it just popped up because I just said he just said Colombia.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I was thinking, I remember going in Bogota a few years ago looking at house prices and just trying to see if anyone would trying to, you know, trying to you know shark bait a little bit and see who dropped a you know who dropped prices.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody was dropping any more than two percent.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a very, you know, it wasn't really a very fluid market.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't like people were making gains and it was difficult to buy stuff, but it wasn't like people were needed to do discounts, it just seemed like there wasn't really any story there to be, you know, it wasn't a buyer's market and it wasn't red hot either.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, so I'm not really too maybe now it's different.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, I'll I'll I'll I'll have a look there and see for myself, but I don't see uh I don't see a huge amount of um maybe Medellin, maybe where Medellin is probably starting from a low base because of all the the troubles it's had in the you know uh you know two decades ago.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe now it's uh it's it's starting from a low base and it's heard it's become a bit of a tech hub, a startup hub, potentially, but then you've got all the other challenges of of investing that country, you know, capital controls, um, you know, they they set they price the the properties in in dollars, so there's no there's no currency play, you know, you're not gonna get bank finance easily, especially if you're non-resident.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: So what market is there?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's it for today, folks.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: But we'll be back soon with another episode of the Mobility Standard.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: In the meantime, I want to remind you to follow our work on iMIDaily.com, the world's number one publication for investment migration.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: Home to the internet's greatest collection of investment migration data, real estate, expert opinion, and the intelligence you need to be a successful investment migration professional.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.