Latest / Skin Anarchy / Trailblazing Natural Perfumery: Douglas Little's Journey with Heretic Parfum and Collaborating with Gwyneth Paltrow

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Trailblazing Natural Perfumery: Douglas Little's Journey with Heretic Parfum and Collaborating with Gwyneth Paltrow · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, welcome back.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is your host, Ecta, and this is another Fragrance Friday episode.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited because I have been really loving this perfume brand recently.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I know a lot of you out there are always asking for more recommendations from us because ever since we started the series, we've just gotten such a positive response from all of you.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm super excited to introduce you to Heretic Perfumes today.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we have the founder with us, Douglas Little.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome to the show, Doug.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to host you and to learn from you.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would love to get started to learn a bit more about you and what got you into perfumery and kind of paved this way.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I'll try to keep it as short as possible.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: I got my start in the beauty industry actually straight out of college.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: I was in design school and my final project in design school, I decided to do a collection of fictitious hair care.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I invited a bunch of people from the industry.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in Southern California, and big surprise, one of the actual people from the industry showed up and that night offered me a job.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: And long story short, I ended up dropping out of school and going to work for this very large hair care company as a junior art director and spent from 20 to 30 working, traveling, living in Germany, uh, working very closely with the artistic team in the laboratories.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And on this journey, I really fell in love with fragrance.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: But fragrance is something that has been very much a part of my life since I was a child.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: My mom was an avid gardener, and it's always something that has been a very profound element in my life that I have felt that there's so much storytelling around it.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's such a wonderful, mysterious product that I really felt that it was the perfect vehicle for me as an artist and also as a business person to venture into.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: I always find fragrance to be such an interesting, you know, area of beauty, wellness, and this whole, I guess, conglomerate of industries that we work inside of because I feel like it's the most magical.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Probably just so much more that goes into it from the artistry end than I think a lot of other things that we, you know, consume.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for example, I talk a lot about skincare here, you know, it's very like science and like labs are involved, but like the perfumery, it always kind of blows my mind how you envision a fragrance and then how you bring it to life.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of like one of the questions I have for you is you know, when you were first thinking about what you wanted to bring to the forefront with hair tech perfumes, like what were the initial thoughts that you had?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Where did you want to begin?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Great question.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think actually winding backwards to one of the points you were making, one of the things that for me is the most magical is the way that each person interprets fragrance and how personal it is for them.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, skincare, don't get me wrong, it's it's an incredible and and also has its own magic.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: But fragrance is so polarizing and it's so interpreted, and everyone has their own relationship with it.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it also, you know, a lot of people talk about fragrance in this capacity of the mysterious and how it connects us to memories.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that in and of itself is such a powerful aspect of the way that fragrance connects to the brain and how we all interpret it.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, for me, with the how this brand kind of got going and what my intention was with it, after I left the beauty industry, I had launched my first fragrance company, which was a home fragrance company in 2003.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it was candles and home fragrances.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I ran that company for nine years and then left and took a break and wanted to really formulate.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: I really wanted to do fine fragrance or personal fragrance, but didn't know really exactly what I wanted to do with it.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I took some time to develop the idea, and I really fell in love with the world of natural perfuming.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Natural perfume is like a subsection of the world of perfume as a whole.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: There is in the industry of fragrance, there's kind of three categories of what is considered traditional perfumery, clean perfumery, and then natural perfumery.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And natural perfumery is the most, I would say, avant-garde and niche of all of the three.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I, of course, being, you know, very much a punk rocker at heart, I chose the most avant-garde to go down that road uh for heretic.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, at the time when I was getting ready to launch this brand, I was on a panel.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: My first company had done quite well and had a lot of notoriety.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I was asked to speak about emerging trends in the industry.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I was on this panel with 10 other people in the beauty industry, and I was saying how much I believed that natural perfuming was a big portion of the future and that people were going to be looking for fragrances that were truly unique and different, and that natural perfumes, you know, really could answer those questions and really individualize and personalize for people differently than the way that synthetic fragrances could.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I at the time had no idea, you know, that I was doing this collection of fragrances.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was just talking about instinctual trending in the perfume industry.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And this woman from a very big perfume house, she kind of interrupted me and said, natural perfumery is really nothing more than the work of housewives and heretics.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: And she was disputing what I was saying.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: She said, you know, natural perfuming will always be really a hobbyist's version of perfumery and it will never be taken seriously.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I would, I said to her, Why would you say that?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, you know, natural perfumery, it's too hard to work with.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Most perfumers don't like working with a lot of natural materials because they're too expensive, they're extremely unstable, and they're hard to come by.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yeah, but it's all of those reasons that I want to work with natural perfumes and why I think that there's an audience for them.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so we kind of had this really interesting debate back and forth about the kind of pitfalls of natural perfumery versus, you know, traditional synthetic perfumery.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it made for good talk.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I left.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that evening, I remember driving home and I was in the car and it kind of had this light bulb moment.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, I've been trying to find a name for my fragrance line.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, name heretic felt so right, felt like it fit me.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the term heretic, for those that don't know, it means someone with an opinion that is different than that of the masses.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it really just fit what I was going to do.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so the next day I called my lawyer and I said, Let's trademark the name heretic.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, Why in the world would you want to name your company heretic?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, It just really fits what I want to do.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like, Well, it's wide open, no one has it.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Okay, great, let's trademark it.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so off I went.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: It was so difficult in the beginning because I was trying to go about it the way that I had learned to develop beauty, which was at the hair care company.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I worked with labs.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: We developed, you know, products with laboratories, they produced it.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so I tried going about it the same capacity where I was contacting these big fragrance houses and I contacted everyone from IFF to Givedon from niche.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was unbelievable.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was over and over and over again.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: They would just say to me, one, you're just starting off.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: They were like, we're not interested in working with a, with a brand so small.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other thing they would say is quite honestly, we don't actually think that there's really going to be any volume in working with someone doing a natural perfume line.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing that was shocking was some of the perfume houses even said that we don't even have perfumers that know how to work strictly with natural perfumery in the capacity that you want to, because I did not want to do a collection of fragrances that smelled like essential oils.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to do a collection of fragrances that really had the same odor profiles as the big boys.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: I had hoped that I would be able to develop a line that was the kind of natural version of Tom Ford in a way, where it was very sexy, very sensual profiles, but done with naturally derived materials.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, that was one of the biggest things when I first tried hair tick.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: And for everyone listening, you know, when you experience the line, you kind of forget, and I mean this in the best way possible, you did go this longer route and this harder route to create a truly natural, you know, fragrance brand because the scents are so sophisticated and they just smell and they feel and they really entice emotions from you that you would get from these like huge, you know, perfume houses that we are so used to, especially with like the big label perfumes that come out, you know, there's always one that's a big winner for me, I think, every like couple of years.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I always find that to be interesting because I'm like, well, of course it's a winner because they have endless amounts of money, you know, and they can go to these amazing perfume houses and make whatever they want.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: But when I first tried hair tick, I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it evoked the sense of nature in the most beautiful way for me as a consumer.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like like genuinely when you're outside like in the springtime, for example, right?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you smell like a beautiful flower or you smell even the earth and the soil or something that's really fragrant to you.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's very, very unique and you'll never forget it.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly how it felt when I smelled your perfumes for the first time.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: It really brought that out, you know?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I mean, I really mean it.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that really speaks to how beautifully you've crafted the brand.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because I have a question for you, and it really is about this idea of how, you know, natural ingredients do seem to be harder to work with because a lot of times I see small indie brands that want to go down this road, right?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: But then they're creating scents that just don't resonate.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: They almost smell a little synthetic.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Ironic as that might sound, they smell a little synthetic sometimes, but yours, like hair tech perfumes, don't smell like someone's trying too hard, you know what I mean?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: To like bring that natural aspect of a flower or whatever it is that they're trying to evoke.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: It actually smells like you went to the huge perfume houses.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to ask like, what is that process like for you?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what was the first one that you worked on, the first fragrance that you worked on?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: So the very first fragrance that I was developing when I launched Heretic, funny enough, when I launched Heretic, I launched in 2015.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And at the time, there was really no one else in the industry doing natural fragrance in a big capacity.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: The only other house that was doing natural perfumery, well, there's two people.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Mandy Aftel, who has an aftalier, who was one of the instructors who I apprenticed and worked with for a long time.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: And she has a beautiful range of fragrances and she works strictly with natural materials.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then Strange Invisible out of Santa Monica.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Those were really the only other brands that were out there that were making any noise in the world of natural perfumery.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I launched originally with eight fragrances and launched exclusively with Barney's.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say the first fragrance that I was working with was a fragrance that was called Court Noir, um, which has since been discontinued.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it was my take on an amber.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Amber formula are pretty easy to do, a pretty dynamic version of them, working with natural materials.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: The term amber is a broadly used term within the fragrance industry that's used to describe a benzoin.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's really a formula that is benzoin lab danim and vanilla, basic three notes that make up amber, as amber as we know it.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Amber in the perfume world, for perfumers, it's a little bit like learning to make a salad dressing.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really reducing it down to a very simple capacity, but it's uh it's kind of how you get your chops, is like if you can make a good amber formula that has your own take on it, it's a little bit like making a salad dressing.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, salad dressings, great salad dressings, you know, I think are a true combination of fats and vinegars.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a very similar capacity because you really have to strike this interesting balance between the fats being the kind of benzoin notes, which is a resin uh similar to frankincense and myrrh, and uh vanilla absolute, which is a very thick, you know, very heavy material.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then labdanum, which is also a thick material, but it has a very intense high key note that when balanced correctly, you can strike this beautiful cord called amber.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so court noir was one of the first fragrances that I was working on, but my first eight fragrances that I went live with at Barney's in 2015 were each so very polarizing, very unique.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: They really stood on their own.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And to be quite honest with you, they just didn't perform that well.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was way too early in the game.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Barney's put me right next to Birreto and Lalabo.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, people would walk up to me and they would say, you know, what do you have that smells like Santal 33?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I had nothing.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like there was the line had absolutely nothing that was even close to Santal 33 because Byrreto and Lalabo, they're beautiful fragrances.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, Byrreto is, I think, really pioneered the road for so many niche perfume houses.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: But these fragrances are built 100% off these extraordinary soft musks.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, in the world of natural perfumery, you have very few levers to pull to be able to elicit these soft, luxurious notes, these velvety notes that you find in synthetic perfumery.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was kind of shocked when people would come up and they would say, you know, what do you have that has sandalwood in it or what do you have that have rose in it?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I would show them like these materials that are so gorgeous and were so expensive for me to work with.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just fascinating to see people that would be like, this doesn't smell like rose at all.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, but this has like the most expensive rose from Morocco in it.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And they were like, it smells nothing like rose, nothing like the rose that I know.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, that's because your rose is all made with beautiful synthetic materials that contain like one molecule that is an isolate from you know rose essential oil.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what I'm using is the real deal.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it quickly taught me that if this line was going to be successful, I needed to make it more accessible for a broader audience.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what led me to the collection of what I call my dirty series, which is much simpler formulas that allow people to connect with the brand in a way that I think is much more accessible.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: The fragrances are not as complex.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it just and once I launched the dirty series, the line took off.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can see why, because they're absolutely phenomenal.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like I love dirty vanilla, it's one of my favorite vanilla fragrances, like hands down.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's so lovely, and it's like for me, I don't really gravitate towards any vanilla fragrances because it's just not my preference.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: But this one is so unique because it evoked what I want it to, like what I would want from something more gourmand, but it's not a like in your face, like you know, like like bam, you know, like here you go.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: This is your scent of the day.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's very layerable, it's very earthy.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: I really like that aspect of it.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that's uh one of the things I I really wanted to kind of talk to you about was this idea of that, you know, I grew up in a culture where everything was made.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, my grandmothers would make even the scents that they would wear were extracted from actual flowers, you know, that were growing on their agricultural land.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I grew up in this, you know, with this perspective that was in front of me of like, you know, there is such a thing as naturally creating your own fragrances, even if it's for personal use.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that was something that really, for me as a child, stuck with me because I would remember those scents, right?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And and they always evoke memories.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember when I first smelled um dirty vanilla and also the dirty coconut, it immediately took me back there at that like as young as I was.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it really did.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it kind of like blew my mind that it did that because I didn't even realize that those memories were tied to that, you know what I mean?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like to those the specific notes that are in those fragrances.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I feel like this is such an astonishing like thing that you've developed here, because I think we don't understand as consumers what truly is natural perfumery.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have so many terminologies floating around in terms of like, you know, trying to understand ingredients, trying to understand what's a note, what's an accord, and how do you, you know, smell something and then describe it as, oh, it smells like caramel with like marshmallows.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I personally don't resonate with that.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: I resonate more with like, if I smell it, it should evoke something for me that I've actually smelled somewhere in my life, you know, in a good way.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I think that's what you've done here.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just it's very magical.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I really, you know, the thing with these fragrances is that because of, you know, working with these natural materials, I really loved the fact that there was the rawness to them.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it kind of leads back to the ethos of the brand and also I think my own personal preferences is that I really prefer natural beauty.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: I really prefer seeing people's authenticity.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I never wanted to develop this collection where it wasn't really allowing the materials to have their own authenticity.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: So when people smell these, I love the fact when when people come to me and they say what you just said, that they that they can smell the nature, they smell a little raw.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in the beginning, thing that would the customers would say when they were coming in, they would smell, they'd say, I can smell that's like earthy, or it smells like the leaves, or they would smell it smells dirty.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: It smells like there's dirt or like a dirt quality.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I really love that.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know whether it was, you know, a positive or a negative description of the of the line, but I never wanted to create a collection of fragrances that was for everyone.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to create a collection of fragrances that was for someone looking for something different.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that really comes through.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like when you resonate with any of the scents in the lines for everyone listening, like you really end up loving it.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like it becomes a staple.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where it's just so fascinating for me is because I think it's one thing to have like a huge fragrance collection, as I know a lot of you know people out there do, but it's another thing to have fragrances in your collection where you're like, you come back time and time again, whether it's daily, whether it's weekly, and you use them because they do make you feel whether it's more grounded or closer to nature or closer to your memories.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like that is so meaningful and it's really priceless.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I've experienced that with heretics lineups.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And also in terms of layering, like I just want to say, like, I a lot of the other fragrances I love in my collection are are more on that whole synthetic side of things.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, when I layer them, it almost brings the best out of them as well.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: The profile is more natural, you know, in terms of like how you're smelling.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate that as a consumer because I don't want to smell like I just walked out of some like a lab where they're creating perfume.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: I want to smell normal, like just myself.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: So there's definitely like that personal touch that it brings to whatever profile you're wearing that day, you know?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know, for your listeners, I think I use this analogy to talk about natural perfumery versus synthetic perfumery.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it it helps people to understand the difference between the two, is that synthetic perfumery, and again, please know anyone that's listening to this, I'm not trying to say that synthetic perfumery is bad at all.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think that perfumery as a whole, we're talking about art because perfumery is the greatest, most peculiar, invisible form of art that there is.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's for me, there's no right or wrong way to create art.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you can make art out of anything.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so, synthetic materials, the one thing to remember is that synthetic materials are engineered in a laboratory to be olfactive, meaning that they're engineered to have incredible odor.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the odors are designed to last for long periods of time.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: They're designed to cover odor, and they're, you know, these materials are engineered to not only be used for perfume that we wear on our skin, but also in soap and detergent and room deodorizers.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so these molecules are being used across a wide gamut in the perfume industry to do all sorts of different things.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: And natural perfumery is so different because you're working with a byproduct of a plant.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, the olfactive or the fragrance aspect is a portion of what these plants have.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: But you have to remember that these materials are not as robust as these synthetic molecules.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's going to be a sheerness to them.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I use this analogy of talking about synthetic perfume, is a little bit like working with oil paint.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if you think about oil paint, or if you've painted your house and you've ever used oil paint, oil paint is used for full coverage.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's very durable, it's very intense, and it will cover just about anything.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Natural perfumery is like painting with watercolors.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're extremely sheer, they're extremely bright, and they're very transparent, and they're very fragile.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so you have to remember that these two materials, if you think about that in that capacity, it helps people to understand, okay, so synthetic perfumery will give you long-lasting, intense results, and you know, they're very durable.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas with natural perfumery, you're going to get a sheerness to them.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're great for layering, they're going to be very bright, but they don't last a long time.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's the one downfall to these materials is that these fragrances, even though I mean, I've worked hard to make these have more durability, but you know, our fragrances, you're not going to probably get more than about four hours of durability out of these fragrances.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, four to six hours is about the longest that you're going to get from the fragrances.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I love that because you never, with our fragrances, you're never going to have that experience of a fragrance kind of walking into the room before you do.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Never get that experience where someone feels overwhelmed by your fragrance.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: They just kind of become part of you.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're like this kind of sheer veil that you get of scent that is really, I feel like it's very modern.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very, and it's very subtle, but it's elegant.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I wanted to bring up Scandalwood because this is like literally everything you described is this is my favorite one.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like, um, also other than the dirty vanilla, because I love sandalwood.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like I love the, I've always loved it.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: But one thing that's always been a pet peeve of mine is when we take like something that is trending or, you know, sandalwood was trending for a long time, I feel like, you know, in the fragrance world.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And there were a lot of fragrances that came out with this, you know, and claiming that this is what it smells like.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: But it was too overpowering for me.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: And as someone who grew up in an Eastern culture, sandalwood is a very everyday kind of thing in our lives.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like my mother's house smells like it.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: One of the Most appealing things about that though is exactly what you said, Doug, where it's like it's a it's a subtlety.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's lingering, but it's not gonna be, you know, just in your face, all over you.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody knows you're wearing this.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna be that, you know, the romantic nature of how fragrance can linger is what for me as a consumer has always driven me towards lighter scents, you know?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so what you said really resonates with me about natural fragrances that they aren't gonna be this like, you know, last for eight hours, you're gonna smell it exactly how it was when you sprayed it on.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I personally don't prefer that because I just don't think it, I don't know, it doesn't resonate with me.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I always feel like I'm overwhelming the person I'm standing next to.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: People oftentimes ask me the question of like, well, where should I, how should I apply fragrance or where should I wear it?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And my response is always a little cheeky.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I always tell people, apply the fragrance where you want someone to find it.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that is a very important factor with modern fragrance, because I think as a culture, at least I hope, maybe this is more me hoping and it's not the reality, but I think it is a reality that we've become a lot more conscious of people around us and we become more conscious of other cultures.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: We've become more conscious of the idea that that person standing next to you may have made different decisions than you.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very important to respect them and to have a great deal of love and compassion for those that are around us.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that wearing these fragrances that are so overwhelming and that are so loud and can be, you know, really offensive at times, it feels so old-fashioned.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like an old way of thinking.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I really feel like these fragrances, whether they're our fragrances or there's some of these new perfumer perfume houses that are working with safe synthetic materials and that are working in fragrances in a different capacity where it's a lot more sheer and it allows the person to come forward.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: To me, that's the future of fragrance.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's like really looking at things from a different perspective and how can it be a more intimate experience?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: I love how you said that, that it allows the person to come forward.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I really believe in that myself.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's just it's so apparent in the line.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you've just done such an amazing job.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I literally, there's not a single fragrance I have, you know, experienced that I haven't been like, oh my gosh, you know, this is amazing.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can easily incorporate this into my my everyday and like that experience, right?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's also like if you're listening and you want to actually try any of the heretic um, you know, perfumes, you'll notice, at least I did, that you can kind of think about what you're gonna put it, like pair it with, like where you're gonna layer it.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's that's a whole experience on its own because of that same thing that you had said earlier, where it's like not overpowering you, you know.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you're able to have that creativity still be intact as a consumer, where you can say, Yeah, I love this, but I know exactly what it's gonna go really well with.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that's very meaningful for me as well as a consumer because I think we all invest so much money into perfume.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, fragrances are not cheap, you know, our closets are full of them and we want to be able to use them.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's important as we go forward, you know, to make sure that brands are kind of like, I guess, working in synergy with, you know, each other in terms of what they're creating rather than just one fragrance that's just that's it.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can't really layer anything with it, you just have to go with it.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I really appreciate it.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: I do want to ask you, Doug, what was the whole collaboration with Gwyneth Paltro?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Could you tell us a little bit about that?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: That was a really interesting moment.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: As I said, you know, I launched at Barney's, and when Barney's decided to launch me, um, they wanted an exclusive on the line for one year.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: And in that time frame, I learned so much.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: As I said, you know, I had created these kind of eight complex fragrances and they really weren't selling.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it really was uh it was very interesting.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if I really look back at it, I mean, they put me in five doors and we just really weren't selling that much product.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it really scared me because I had sold my house and put all of the money into developing this line.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I had moved to New York.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was basically formulating the line.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, not basically, I was formulating the line out of my apartment in New York.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was filling, bottling, packaging, and delivering to their New Jersey distribution center.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it was really scary to see that the line was not moving like I thought it was going to.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it was almost a year into it.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember getting an email, and it was an email from someone claiming to be Gwyneth Paltrose's assistant and uh from some website called Goop, and I had never heard of it.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I was, I remember looking at the email and I was like, this has got to be some kind of a joke.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, they wrote and said, you know, Gweneth has found, you know, your line through Barney's and is interested in having a conversation with you.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, would you be open to a phone call?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought to myself, this has got to be a joke.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then one thing led to another, and I got on a call and she gets on the call and she was like, I found your line.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: And my beauty director, you know, June Godfrey or Jean Godfrey June, um, had found you.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, I know Gene from Lucky.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we had had a previous relationship from my my old company.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And uh she goes, Yeah, she recommended you and I'd love to connect with you, and I'm gonna be in New York.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and I was like, Okay.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then the one thing led to another, and it was like a few months later, and all of a sudden, Gweneth Paldrow came walking into my apartment.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in LA and I don't really get starstruck, and I have to tell you, I couldn't even catch my breath.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was like a I was like a nervous wreck.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we we talked, and you know, all of a sudden I my my guard came down and we started doing uh some blending and talking about fragrance.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And she said to me, you know, I've been wanting to develop fragrance for goop for so long, but I don't want to do it synthetically.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I she's like, I'm just so impressed with what you've been able to do working with naturals.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Would you consider being our nose?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, you could have literally knocked me over with a feather.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I heard her, I was like, I would be so honored and I don't even know what to say.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so we started on this journey of working on developing four fragrances for goop, which was editions one, two, three, and four.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And along that journey, Gwyneth and I became very close.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: The one thing I can tell you is that I do a lot of custom fragrance work and I will make judgments on the person and what materials I'm going to show because in my library of fragrances, I mean, I have over 3,000 materials.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so obviously, I can't show them all.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I will kind of redact a deck of fragrances.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I had really anticipated that she was going to come in and, you know, that we were going to be talking about, you know, white florals and citruses and sheer white musks and, you know, a very California palette.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: And she sat down and she was like, you know, what I what I've always wanted to create is I've always wanted to create this scent that when I was in Switzerland, I was staying at this ski lodge and I was with a lover, and you know, we had this moment where we were snowed in and there was a roaring fire, and you know, there was a smell of the linseed oil on the wood and burning wood in the fireplace.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: And we had the most amazing night of making love.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like, and I really want a fragrance that captures all of that.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, listen, lady, you are talking to the right person.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we had uh we had so much fun uh creating the collection of fragrances together, and along the journey of us creating the fragrances, so Gwyneth wanted to create the fragrances based off of seasons.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we did edition one, which was originally called church, but it was kind of a winter fragrance.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Then we did a summer fragrance, which was edition four.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: And she really didn't want to do a in normal summer fragrance.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: And my original pitch to her was that I wanted to do something that was based around Big Sur, because it's one of my favorite places on the planet.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to do something that was kind of this combination of like uh sweet wood smoke, junipers, and the sea.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so we were playing around with those notes, and I was sitting with her, showing her some of the individual notes, and I was showing her the seaweed absolute, and we had this room full of people, all her marketing people and whatnot.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I showed her the seaweed absolute, and she smelled it, and she said, Oh my god, Douglas, this smells like a vagina.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I I literally, I can't even begin to tell you.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was like in my suit and tie trying to really hold it together, and I lost my mind.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like I we laughed so hard, and I turned like every shade of red you can imagine.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: My response to her was I was like, I have no idea what vagina you're smelling.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: But she was, I said, if anyone smells like this, there's a big problem.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and of course, it just became hysterically funny.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a, it basically was like an inside joke with her and I forever.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was basically showing up at her office for meetings and giving her pencils that said, This smells like my vagina.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was like it always was just this inside joke with her and I forever.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then it ended up manifesting itself into the candle very organically and extremely unplanned.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we launched it as a heretic product, and it literally within like a period of it going live, I think it was maybe a week, and it ended up getting picked up by Tea Magazine, and then it went viral, and then all of a sudden it was all over the place.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: But that was such a bizarre moment in my career.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: I can tell you it really was one of those pinch me moments.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: I owe it to Gwyneth, and I definitely owe it to Gwyneth and Goop for putting us on the map in a way, it was very funny.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was like we needed, for some reason, this kind of seal of approval.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: And Goop kind of gave us that stamp and it put the company in a position where we were being looked at a lot more serious than we were before.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I owe that to Gwyneth and Goop, and I'm eternally grateful for giving me that opportunity to develop those fragrances with Goop.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, you know, we did so many fun projects.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the other aspect of, you know, my relationship with Gwyneth and with Goop is that fragrance is so pretentious.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's always to me really been a huge bother.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: I always say that for me, perfumery is a little bit like the wine industry.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like going out to a fine dinner or going out to a fine dining experience.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I always watch this happen where it's like I'm with a big group of people, maybe maybe the entire group, really like maybe they enjoy drinking wine, but they don't know it.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then they get very uncomfortable when the waiter comes around and says, like, what would you like?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, who knows?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you are having a salad and you want to have a nice glass of red wine.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Who the fuck cares?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if that's what you want, that's what you want.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it always, I'm always so blown away with how people still kind of feed into this.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very much like fragrance.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I would watch people come in, and granted, this was years ago, but they would come into Barney's and I would literally watch them.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: They were very interested in fragrance and they they would love fragrance, but they were very intimidated by the language.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: You get in there, and there's these very fancy French houses, you know, perfume houses from Stockholm and Germany, and you know, the names are very complicated and they're very mysterious.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you can't even pronounce them.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can't pronounce them.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then the you know, the perfume person salesperson is rattling on about, you know, oh, this ingredient from Timbuktu, and this one's going to change your life, and this one's going to make your vagina fall off, and you know, all of these like crazy things.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you watch the person glaze over, and they're like, ultimately at the end of it, they're like, I just wanted to smell like birthday cake.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, I don't have do you know what I mean?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: And they feel weird saying that.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the whole thing that I enjoyed my ride with Gwyneth is that fragrance doesn't need to be so pretentious and it can be so much fun.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I really felt fragrance can be this vehicle for storytelling, any kind of storytelling you want.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the thing here that we really embraced.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Could we do a product that was salacious and could stir the pot and could raise the question about feminine power and feminine empowerment and you know, do it in a way that was really tongue-in-cheek.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we did.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: We broke the internet with our candle.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it was so much fun to be on that ride with her.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I've obviously continued with Heretic and doing, I think, some really fun products.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we really try to get a little cheeky during the holidays.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I just tried to keep it where it doesn't feel so pretentious and that people can connect with it and that they can have fun with these fragrances.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely love that.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's probably why I literally fell in love with your line because it doesn't come off as pretentious or, you know, just above someone's understanding, or, you know, like you don't need to describe everything.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I honestly, Doug, I watch these people on like social media, and you know, there's nothing wrong with like describing a fragrance, right?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: And using your own terminology.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes I'm just like, does it really smell like the ocean by whatever crazy wilderness place that you're talking about?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, it's just like the crazy, crazy way of explaining things, and it makes it almost like unattainable, how you know, fragrances portrayed.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I completely resonate with what you said there because you know, I've oftentimes felt like that as a consumer where it's like, well, I don't even know what to think, you know, from like a review or like someone even describing their own perfume, you know, like I don't know what to think.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to go and smell it, you know, and if I like it, I like it.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if I don't, F it, you know, I don't care.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: But like, you know, then there's become this whole culture around, I feel like the fragrance industry.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Even lately, I've noticed it's it's kind of been um, you know, at the forefront where people want to make sense sound as if they're just, I don't know, out of this world complicated.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: But then when you smell them, it's like I don't know what you were talking about.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't even it doesn't add up.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I think it makes a lot of sense what you said.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I really appreciate that you've really kept things so grounded, but so sophisticated at the same time.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a huge fan.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I my last question really to round out the interview is first of all, I would love to get your advice about a lot of the budding entrepreneurs out here that would love to go into perfumery and maybe think about starting their own brand because we do get a lot of questions, you know, about that.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I have noticed recently that there are more niche brands, you know, coming out from the woodworks.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes I just wonder, you know, how much training should you have before you start a brand, you know, and how high should your hopes be?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, what would your advice be to somebody who wanted to go down this road and do their own thing?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh God, that's such a great question.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, to anyone who's listening who is planning to start their own collection, I definitely can tell you that one of the most important things for any entrepreneur is to really sit down and do an unapologetic three-year plan.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by unapologetic is you really need to sit down and you need to plot out.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Finances are obviously the most important.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, well, let me rephrase that.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Finances are second in the level of importance.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: You really do need a solid financial strategy because otherwise you can really get yourself into a mess.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is, is I think a lot of entrepreneurs underestimate how much money it's going to take to actually market and promote your product.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you may be thinking that you can do this gorilla style, where it's kind of a grassroots capacity.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: You may be fine with that as long as you gauge your expectations of you what you want from the collection.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is really where the three-year plan comes in and is such an important factor because you really need to say, year one, I'm going to, I'm not going to make any money, or whatever you want.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, year one, typically you're never going to make any money and you're going to be at a loss.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Year two, you know, I would say it's very possible you're still going, still going to be running at a loss, but potentially you're getting close to breaking even.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then by year three, you may be saying, okay, I'm going to break even or I'm going to show slight profitability.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you need to make sure that you have enough money to be able to sustain the brand for three years before you're actually going to be breaking even or turning a profit.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where a lot of entrepreneurs get in trouble because they really think, like, oh, I've got a great idea, or I've got a great fragrance, or I've got a, you know, I've got a celebrity tied to it.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: None of these things equate to success.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you really do have to have this structure in place.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think so much of this industry is based on people that are deeply passionate about what they're doing, that they forget how important the financial structure is to being able to develop a collection.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: And the other, you know, I would say the most important thing is your passion, is that if you don't love what you're planning to do enough to say that you're going to sacrifice a massive portion of your life to it, you're going down the wrong path.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: I can tell you that starting a brand, especially within beauty, because the beauty industry, no matter what facet of the beauty industry you're talking about, it's so oversaturated.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: And when I say oversaturated, it is like beyond oversaturated.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's it is an ocean of products.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you think of that analogy of there being this ocean of water, and you are another droplet of water, how are you going to make waves within that space?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you really have to dig deep to ask the question who you are, what are you doing?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it different?
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, why should the customer care?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: And unless you can answer those four questions completely clearly, you really need to think about what you're doing and you need to definitely gauge the expectations of what you want from this collection or from this product or whatever it is that you're embarking on.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because I had all those answers.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the biggest problem that Heretic has had is that we have too much storytelling.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's too much to be able to convey to the customer.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm constantly editing, constantly editing.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem is that I'm so passionate about what I'm doing, is that I want to tell everyone everything.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I always talk about like, I just feel like I'm like this over-caffeinated person with fragrance that I just want to tell you everything.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I want you to be as excited about fragrance as I am.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, it's it's for everyone's their journey with it is very different, and especially from the consumer that's getting hit with so many, so much messaging, you know, from Instagram, from TikTok, from their direct email marketing.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just nonstop.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you how do you stand out in this mass of information?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would say that that would, it's a lot, that was a big long-winded answer on my advice.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it was great.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: But um, that would be my advice.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's funny, like just a week ago, I a friend of mine came to me and they were like, I'm so excited to show you.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm launching a makeup collection.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I, I, I literally, my face just dropped.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like, What?
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: What's wrong?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, I'm just so scared for you.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, it's just terrifying to me to think that like there's another makeup line that's coming out because there's just, it feels like every two seconds there's another brand of products.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: And how are you going to be successful in in all of that?
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: And unless you've got something so unique and so different and such a unique voice, um, it's very difficult to achieve that success.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh, those are truly words of wisdom.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so thankful that you shared that because I I mean, I am not a brand founder, but I can only imagine the journey that it takes you on.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope someone listening out there, you know, it's not to like scare you, but to give you the truth, you know, and I think that's so important in this landscape that we're in now with the beauty industry, exactly you know, how you articulated it, Doug, is that it's just there is so much.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: And uh even as a consumer, I look out into the space and I'm like, I don't even know what to pick, you know.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's not even like that I don't want to support certain brands or I don't want to, I always want to vote with my dollars, I always want to support like you know, new brands or whatever I can do.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: But even as consumers are confused at this point because we're like bombarded with options, you know, and it's like in the skincare realm, I always say I feel like there's more packaging out here than there is actual stuff, you know?
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: And like I really feel that for skincare.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, perfume is very different, fragrance is very different, but still, I mean, it's the beauty industry.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that applies.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I just think what you shared is just so wise.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I really hope someone listening out there that you you can learn from that and and really kind of approach your outlook a little differently, you know, whatever you're thinking, just pause, you know, and think it over, kind of thing.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much, Doug, for and you know, let me just let me just wind back for a second because I feel like words were foreboding.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't wanna I don't want to diminish any person that's an entrepreneur and excited about starting a brand.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: I would just say gate your expectations and less is more.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: When I say less is more, what I mean is that, you know, for instance, if I would have gone back to you know, me 2015, I knew better.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: I knew better.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember saying, okay, I need to go out the door with three fragrances that are fantastic.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I showed Barney's the collection.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: And Barney's, I had eight fragrances, and they said, no, we want all eight fragrances.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew better.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: I knew better.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: And yet at the same time, I mean, I at that point had 20 years of experience in the beauty industry.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I freaking knew better.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: And yet at the same time, I glazed over in front of the buyer and I was like, oh my God, they love my fragrances.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, yes, let's do all eight.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next thing I know, I'm like, oh shit, six of these fragrances aren't selling.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you launch a bunch of fragrance, if you launch a bunch of product, it's guaranteed you're going to have one or two products that are going to be your hero.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's better to launch with less.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's better to scale back what you want to go out with.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure that what you're going out with is so powerful and is such a clear message that you're going to connect with a broader audience in whatever audience or whatever niche you're going after, you'll have so much more success and you won't waste your money, you know, spreading it across a bunch of different SKUs.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so I want to gauge that and I want to kind of wind it backwards because I really feel like I was like on this Helen Brimstone situation.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's I encourage all creatives and I encourage entrepreneurs, go for it because the world is so much more interesting with your product in it.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: But it is something to consider uh on just how you do it and how fast you want to grow and you know, all of those things.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's, I mean, that's you know, just very important as well.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't think it came across at all in any negative light.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think if anything, it's it's truly, like I said, words of wisdom because I think a lot of times it's just human nature to bite off more than we can chew.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: I do it every day, you know what I mean, even in my own profession.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like in the beauty industry, it's easy to have an idea and then think I can do it all, you know, and I can I can do this no matter what.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: But it is important to sit down with yourself and realize like, what do I really want to do?
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what do I really want to create?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I took away with your advice.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think it's really solid.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I I hope someone listening out there that you really kind of contemplate on it.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's very, very great advice.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much for offering that.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a huge fan of every single fragrance I've experienced by Heritage.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you really did knock it out of the park, dog.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: I I love it so much.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I'm truly always cheering your brand on.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're doing something really magical.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if anyone out there has not tried Heritage perfumes, please, please go check them out.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: They're all wonderful.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: I shouted out a few of my favorites in this episode, but I'm genuinely telling you, they're all amazing.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think you guys have like a um like a starter kit or something, right?
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we have two different discovery sets, and I think the discovery sets are a great way to get into it.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very, it's a very easy price point.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you also get a discount code.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: So if you decide to scale up to uh full size, you get 20% off.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's just an easy way to kind of tiptoe into the collection and see if it fits you.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: And also these are really great.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't I didn't get to say this to you um earlier, but they're so good for the summer, I feel like a lot of the scents.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: They are like they're great for the summer.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: They're so great.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're and they're the perfect like intensity for the summer.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: So if any of you out there are like looking for that new summer scent to add to your collection, this is probably gonna be a home run to check out the brand and see what you like.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: But Doug, thank you so much.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: This has been such an honor to learn from you and to host you.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're what you do with Skincare Anarchy is really brilliant.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: You shed some great knowledge and light on an industry that I think is shrouded in a lot of mystery.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate that.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, have a wonderful day.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: You too.
• 48:04
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• 49:11
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