Latest / Skin Anarchy / Veronica Alanis, Senior Design Engineer/ Senior Product Developer, DYSON

Transcript

Veronica Alanis, Senior Design Engineer/ Senior Product Developer, DYSON · Skin Anarchy

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Five powerful clock question play stuff with your friends four player co-op with cross player across the crest on all four available now we get ever mature after dinner visit this episode's page to learn more guys welcome back to Switzerland Anarchy.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Today is a very, very special episode, and I am so honored and humbled that I have the opportunity to um even host this brand, host this guest.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: This is such a dream come true.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Veronica Alanis, who is the senior design engineer and new product developer for Dyson.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: So welcome to the show, Veronica.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for making the time for this.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, not at all.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Such a such an honor to be talking to people and reach out to audiences that um are really interested in in hair as much as I am.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, me too.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm very much interested in hair, and it's something that's been a very close uh part of my life growing up.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: I know, you know, I grew up in an Indian household and we're very serious about our hair.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: So um I'm I'm gonna dive into all the details with you about the science, but I want to get started first by you sharing with us your um education background and what really led you to Dyson.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, sure.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I am originally from Mexico.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I I was born in Monterey, which is in the northeast of Mexico, and I grew up there.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I went to university there actually.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: I did a bachelor's degree in industrial design, and then I was lucky enough to get a scholarship to then go to study to Scotland, um, and I did a master's in sustainable design, which was uh really eye-opening.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that was the first time that I came across Dyson as a brand because back then in 2012, Dyson didn't really have a presence in in Mexico.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it was only when I moved to the UK that I realized that that was a brand that I really resonated with.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was just a cool product design brand then, um, and I knew there was more to it, but it never ever in a million years crossed my mind that I could actually end up working there.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um so so yeah, I'm I'm really heavily like influenced by product design and sustainability.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um I had uh my first, my very first job was as a designer for a French company doing more like electromechanical products.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um then I've also worked in uh an architecture firm doing more sustainable design work.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it was only in 2016 when I approached ICE and I applied for a job, and I was really um really lucky to be honest, to manage to get a job uh back then.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it was it was a vacuum cleaner company, that's why I thought of it.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea that they were developing uh a hairdryer because it would still uh you know it wasn't launched supersonic um in 2006, well, end of 2015 when I applied for the job.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: So even just getting a job generally in Dyson was uh unbelievable.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then I remember my very first day in the office, uh my line manager showed me the prototype of supersonic, and he told me you're working on something that we call new category, and this is a new product.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and we wanted to get involved, and I was just I just couldn't believe it.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, not only am working with Dyson, I'm also working on something that I actually use.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, something so innovative, that's so cool.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, so that so that was the beginning of it.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's been almost six years since then.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: So so yeah, I've enjoyed I've enjoyed working uh in Malmesbury, which is where we are located.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um Mamsbury is a tiny village in the southwest of England, uh about two and a half hours from London on a train.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's beautiful, yeah.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um I recommend it.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: How close is that to Ipswich?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: Because I love Ipswich, it's like a little fishing town.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I it just reminded me of that.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: But I it's like the approximately like the same time, that's why I asked.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: But that's okay.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so this is this is where Dyson started, and now we have presence in oh, I can't even remember, something like 34 countries to this date.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we've got um RDD facilities, which stands for research, design, and development, uh, not only in the UK, but also in Singapore, in Malaysia, and in the Philippines.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we we have marketing offices in almost every country in the Western world.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And we we've launched in India uh a couple of years ago, launched in Mexico, um, and we're constantly expanding, trying to get to to more hair hair types, really.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so it's been it's been quite a journey just seeing our category, hair care category, growing in the in the last six years, uh, and it's just an honor to be part of it.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, supersonic was the first, but yeah, we we we didn't stop there from then.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um we've been we've been learning more about hair, and I'm sure that we'll be talking about that in a second, but we learned more and we're improving and we're constantly trying to know more about how people connect to their hair and what they want to achieve and how can we help them achieve it.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and you know, that's honestly radical for me.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm one of those people that you know, for me, I as I mentioned, like hair has always been an important part of my life, you know.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: Growing up, my mother was always like giving me a hair oil massage or somehow mentioning hair, you know, in conversation.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: So, like I but I never really was the person that used styling tools, you know what I mean?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I never really got into it.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: But I know when I um I first saw Dyson come onto the hair um hair scene, I was just very intrigued.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: And it was genuinely because of the design aspect.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, wow, this is really cool.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe that's the science started me just like geeking out, but like I just like I remember thinking to myself, this is not a product like I really want to not only like use, but I want to like really get to know.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that's really kind of the direction that I want to um turn towards because you know, when it comes to like hair care and like hair um styling, especially, I know there's like a million products on the market, you know, like I like going to a hairdresser is always like so mind-boggling for me.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's worse than being in the lab and recording a new experiment because I don't know.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'm always like, what are you using?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like, why?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: And like, you know, so I want to I want you to talk to us and I want you to dive into the science of the supersonic or whichever product you want to start with first because I really want to talk about it and I want to talk about the engineering and like the real um science that went behind these products.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it it in handside it makes sense, to be honest.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: When I think about it, uh James Dyson has been making um vacuum cleaners for the last uh 30 years or more.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um as a company, we became experts in airflow and what air can do.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're not only making vacuum cleaners, we make uh air purifiers, we make uh robots.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we we kind of switched from being just a manufacturer of vacuum cleaners into a technology company.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: So in handside, it makes sense that the next step was to see well, what other airflow problems can we solve.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um you would never imagine that hair would be that that that problem that we chose to solve.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: But James is really keen to always push the engineers into looking at what problems are there in the world and how we can solve them through technology.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm yeah, I'm just I'm just really proud to say that supersonic is actually a tool that solves a problem.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like hair dryers were in redesign since the 60s, they they they're quite a humble tool because they they work.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh absolutely, if you go and grab one of the shelves, they'll they'll do the job.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: But there are so many things that could be improved of that really original combination of having a bulky motor, a peak heater, and no real uh temperature control.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the first thing, and and I think supersonic is probably the best the best place to start, is we we chose to challenge the conventional hairdryer and we said, how can we make the experience or of drying hair better?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: What are the problems that people face currently, and how can we apply all the knowledge that we have in thermodynamics, in fluid dynamics, all the you know, we have a massive team of electronics, hardware engineers, integration engineers.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, how can we make use of all this knowledge into into something that we think could be improved?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it took it wasn't easy, obviously, because coming from being a vacuum cleaner company into the the the world of beauty, um, it was daunting.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like we we weren't really sure at the very beginning how how well received, or even if we were going to be received by the likes of you know um users that not necessarily knew Dyson as a beauty company.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um it was really it was really humbling to to actually see that people do like our products and and they give us feedback and and it's it's just great.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: So the engineering behind supersonic to begin with, um, I would highlight that it was the development of a new motor, completely new digital motor.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: So if you look at hair dryers, um conventional hairdryers, they have like what we call off-the-shelf, so a very generic DC motor.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: What we wanted to do was compress that motor and make it not only smaller but also lighter and faster.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we're really lucky that we have an amazing motors and power systems team in in Dyson that uh with a lot of effort and a lot of engineering, they managed to create V9, which is our Dyson digital motor, and that is at the center of supersonic.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: So most hair dryers will have the motor at the head, if you want to call it like that.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Ours is in the handle.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: So just by shifting that like piece of um electronic to the handle, we actually make the product more ergonomic, a little bit more balanced.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: So the weight is not in the hair but actually on the handle, which is where your hand is holding the product from.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and I know it sounds silly, but whenever we've done user trials with professionals, which is one of the most important people that we, you know, we we work with to understand, you know, the science behind styling.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it did take them quite a while to get used to it because they've developed a technique where they make use of the head to, you know, like hold the hair whilst they're introducing a brush.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you you can picture what I'm saying, but oh I do, yeah, yeah, I know, because it's like a kind of a pivot thing they do, like they it's the weight because the weight is all on the head portion.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, exactly.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: So so it it does take some sort of like learning time to like adapt to the new geometry.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I think once you bypass that, uh given the number of hours that a hairdresser uses a uh uh hairdryer for, and you know they're standing, they're in this awkward angle position.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um overall, just making the product more ergonomic and more balanced actually has a really positive impact in their day-to-day work.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's that's one area of how V9 made um uh the engineering of supersonic possible.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess the other side is the fact that even though it's smaller, it's actually more powerful than the conventional um motor.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it spins at 110,000 revolutions per minute, which is almost as fast as a Formula One car, really.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's quite a monster, even though it's so small.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And because we can put that much pressure, we can actually generate a lot of um airflow.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we have something that we call um air multiplying technology, which is actually a pattern from Dyson, where not only is the airflow that's been generated by the high pressure motor, but also we can entrain airflow from the back and we multiply that airflow three times.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why the supersonic hair dryer has that really funny shape with a hole in the middle.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like an aesthetic feature, but actually it's an aerodynamic feature that helps multiply the airflow three times.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: So by combining those two things, you can actually have a faster hair drying experience just because you have more air concentrated over the same period of time.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um it might be a lot to take in, but I think once you try it, you realize that oh, was that faster?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: You can time yourself, and sometimes it's like oh, it doesn't feel like it's faster, but it actually does dry.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: No, it is, it's definitely faster.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: Are you kidding?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I I have had like really thick hair and long hair my whole life, and it's like that was one of the biggest reasons I never used hairdryers.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not even lying.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I would stand there all day if I tried to dry my hair with a conventional hair dryer.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: And it was like, I don't have the time for this, you know?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I know Dyson is way faster because it dries my hair thoroughly.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: That was actually the biggest problem I had with hair dryers was that not only was I using it and it wasn't really drying it all the way and leaving it like damp, but like it was like also I'm like I'm putting so much heat into onto my hair.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I I always hated that aspect.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: So that's where like I get so interested because I know um the next step in the technology for you guys for the supersonic is that heat control system, right?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I want you to talk about that a lot because I really think people need to understand like why this is so important and why heat damage is really the big, you know what I mean?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like the hallmark of products, like what we need to focus on with hair care.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's uh that's that's really good.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's really good to hear that you can actually see that.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um we we we develop a lot of test methods in-house in Dyson.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's a way that we can benchmark our products against our own designs.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this is something quite funny because if you look at the hairdryer industry, there are certain standards that you need to comply with, like they're basic things that you need to make sure that you, you know, like safety, electrical safety, etc.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then there is one performance test that you need to to run to make sure that your hairdryer doesn't get too hot and that it dries fast.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's just like a really basic test.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: And when we got into the world of hairdryers, we realized that that test method wasn't as good as we would like it to be.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was actually using a cloth, like a piece of cloth, to measure how much evaporation essentially you're you're you're generating.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, like how fast can you evaporate a wet cloth?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we developers totally not normal, like that's not a good design at all.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, it in the world of like in like industry standards, you need to standardize, I guess.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a it's a redundant term, but you need to make sure everyone's doing the same.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, like the more basic tests that you can provide, the easier it is to make sure everyone's compliant with.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: But this is the sort of thing that Dyson is not happy with, like, we want to go beyond.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we develop our own test methods where we start to test with hair.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and this is quite quite an investment because hair is you know it's not cheap, and we want to make sure that it's ethically, ethically sourced, so we need to make sure that we work with um the right supplier.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, in order to like get the right hair in as many different types as we can, so then we can test it in the lab, it's quite it's quite a challenge.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: But it was when we started test that yeah, it's when we start to test the the performance of the hairdryer on real hair, that we could also understand the impact of temperature on hair, and that's where we got to all this like heat damage analysis.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Then we said, actually, if you pump the power of your heater, you're starting to put more temperature on the hair, and we start to notice the hair start to look you know less shiny, a little bit more dull, and that's when we start to get really deep into the hair science part.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, as I said, I'm a product designer, um, so I'm not a hair scientist, but we have a big team in our research labs that 100% of their time is dedicated to understand what makes hair uh shiny, what makes it strong, how we how can we measure you know strength in hair?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite it's quite an unusual concept to think about like strength of hair, but but we want to characterize as much as we can different hair types to understand how can we ensure that your hair is as healthy as it can be.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I want to actually know though, what is the process of that?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like you working with like the hair scientists, like the engineers and the hair, how does that work?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like the collaboration?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: Do you guys just go into a room and just everyone just shares facts or like how is it because it must be hard, right?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: It is it is quite hard.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um hair is so variable.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you think about it, I've got a sister, right?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a very close DNA, and our hair is completely like not the same.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so what works in her hair doesn't work in my hair, and we are from the same household.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: So imagine when you start moving from uh country to country, generation to generation, hair characteristic is very different.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: So we need we needed to give ourselves certain rules, otherwise, we would we would never be able to test absolutely everything.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: But we want to make sure that we test uh in as many hair types as we can.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we test um, as I said, in uh different types, so type one, two, three, and four, which is a very conventional way to uh define hair curliness.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: So type one is generally straight, type four is generally very curly or um uh type.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then type two is wavy, type three is curly.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we we try to get as many shades of those four types as possible, but then you also start looking at hair thickness.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we go um in our hair labs in Malmesbury and in Singapore, we've got um a lot of equipment.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: One of my favorite pieces of kit is the SEM, which is a scanning electron microscope.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: And what you can do when you when you put a sample of hair inside the microscope, you can look at things like um the thickness of the hair.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I always thought I had really coarse hair because my hair is really curly.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I associated my freeziness to be having coarse hair.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So mistakenly, over time, I always tried to use products that were targeted to coarse hair users because that's what I thought I had.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it was only when I started to work on hair care products that I realized if you compare it to the global average, my hair is quite fine, and it's it's crazy because my hair is so freezy, and in in the way I grew up, I never associated freeze with fine hair.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: I always thought fine hair was people with like this lush, uh straight hair.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like they're really like naturally straight.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know what you mean.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, so so it was it was quite funny.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, things like the SEM microscope can tell you things like hair um thickness, and then when you start combining that with hair type, then you can start to understand all the variables.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one one of the things that we look in our hair labs, but uh the hair scientists are these people that have backgrounds in either chemistry or they work with um agencies that look at uh you know, like tensile strength tests, which is a test where we pull hair apart and then we can measure how much force is required to break the hair.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can you can you can submit the hair to different temperatures so you know that once you go after a certain uh temperature, the hair is more likely to break.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one of the test methods that we developed.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I love that I want to pause for a second because I love that you're using um SEM because and everyone listening, like um Veronica touched upon it, but SEM is actually the type of microscopy that uses like um, you know, the the generated image is like a bounce off and it's giving you like the 3D imagery of like something very, very small.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: So you know how we talk about like electronic microscopy, and like there's one type that can look inside of things, and the the scanning one is the one that can look on top in 3D.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: So when you look at when I know a lot of people see those images of hair where it's like super close up and you see like the breakage and you see the that's SEM.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: So for just for reference, for everyone's great.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you know what you're talking about.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: I love the science background.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm not an engineer, but I've got the science part now.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's excellent.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm I'm glad you touched on that because I forgot to say one of the other things that we can look at in the SEM is actually the cuticle.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: So hair is composed generally by three layers, if you want to see them like that.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: So you have your external layer, which is your cuticle, then you have your secondary layer, which is your cortex, and then you have the middle, which is your medulla.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like the medulla is what contains your DNA.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Some people have medulla, some people don't, and your hair changes throughout your life.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes that changes, but that most of the cases that that medulla doesn't carry any of the hair characteristics.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the characteristics of the hair, so the the color, the shape, the strength, the shine is all in the cortex.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's um, if I remember correctly, that 90% protein, so that's like uh keratin essentially, and that is the bit that we want to protect.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's the that's the the cortex is what uh what you really want to make sure that doesn't get exposed to too much UV, doesn't get exposed to too much uh chemical damage, and doesn't get too exposed to heat damage.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the only way that you can protect the hair, because as you know, hair is dead, like the moment it comes out of your hair, um out of your head, sorry, is out of the follicle area, yeah.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing you can do to to to heal it if if anything, but you can protect it, and the way to protect it is to make sure that that cortex, uh sorry, that cuticle.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Your outermost layer is as aligned as possible.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: So things like making sure that the airflow is controlled and making sure that you expose the hair to the most minimal mechanical damage that can help to ensure that your cuticle is aligned.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, the light bounces off the cuticle really nicely, making sure that your hair looks shiny and also protects your cortex from, as I said, UV, chemical, and heat.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: So understanding that sort of thing is quite important for us.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we have the hair science team for to make sure that all of this knowledge is always embedded in every product and in every attachment, accessory, et cetera, that we work on in hair care.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I love that.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's a very like, and yeah, that's this is exactly why I love Dice because you guys are so it's really science heavy.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you guys, it it's like every little detail is it's like examined, it's thought about, it's really engineered to perfection.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I I I think that's my favorite part of the whole company.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, so I just wanted to put that in there because I I really just I admire that in your brand, you know, like you don't see that.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it's always like so weird for me because I always think like, you know, whenever it comes to anything on our bodies, whether it's hair or skin or nails, it's like you would think, right, that there'd be a huge group of scientists working behind it, but like it's very rare to see that.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I mean, I've got to admit we've come a long way, but we're always learning.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this comes from James himself.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we're always trying to improve ourselves.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: So even though we are experts in hair, I always think that we're looking for the next thing, and we want to make sure that we not only cater for you know the hair types that we currently do, we're always trying to expand, we're always trying to understand better.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um, supersonic is a great example.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like the original attachments that we launched with have been re-engineered, and I think it was like when we relaunched it because we understood that we can do better performance, we can have uh more controlled airflow, we could have um we could cater for people with more needs.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, the gentle dryer on supersonic was a second generation attachment, and all the gentle dryer does is that it entrains more air.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, even though you can still dry your hair at the same rate, so you can still feel that it's a fast drying, the flow itself is cooler, and this is to help people that have really sensitive uh sensitive scalps to make sure that they don't, you know, overdo it because obviously what I think is hot might not be the same that my mom thinks is hot on on her scalp.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I think just trying to always learn and evolve it is quite intrinsic to what Dyson does really.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we're always looking for feedback and we're constantly working with professionals, we're constantly working with um dermatology scientists, etc., to make sure that we make our products better.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, thanks for that.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Just hearing it from you is also quite nice.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, absolutely.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: And also, you know, I want to move on to the air app after this because that's like my I I'm just so intrigued by it.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: But like I really want to ask you, like, and I know this is a hard, it could be a hard question, but like, what is the ideal heat level?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like, is there such a thing, or do we not know that?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, when it comes to like the science, like the heat that's for our hair for minimal cuticle damage.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is a really hard question.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we go we got numbers, obviously, because we we test in the lab.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: So for certain hair types, you will go to a certain level and you would see barely any impact.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, rather than tell you number, I would I would say you need to understand the point where your hair starts to be modified and can no longer go back to its original shape.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's when you would start to see damage.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: So hair, as I said, it's protein, so it can flex, and that's why you can go from curly hair to straight hair, and that's why you can go from straight hair to curly, because it you can modify its hydrogen bonds and you can make it set into a new shape.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we do.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we do whenever you you go from wet to dry, even when you go to bed with wet hair and you wake up with like dead head, that's just that modifying your hydrogen bones into the pillow shape, essentially.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: So so hair is flexible, obviously, we can style it, but it's when you style it to a point that it cannot return, that's when you start to see damage.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we were so keen to understand what that damage was like and how we can like prevent it.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: So um when we tune our product supersonic and airwrap and corral, we we set this uh smart heater control or intelligent heat control, which is essentially just measuring the temperature of the air or of the plates in the corral case, uh, and make sure that whenever it goes above a threshold, we always bring it down back.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it would vary depending on the heat setting that you are in.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, it's quite hard.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like I wish I could just tell your number, but it would be so variable if you have fine hair, if you had coarse hair, if you had curly hair.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we know from just running user trials across the world that sometimes, and I include myself, sometimes I wouldn't mind putting a bit more heat if I know that I'm gonna achieve a hairstyle.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is me growing up, you know, like straightening my hair every day with absolutely no uh remorse of what would happen in the future.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm just like, you know what, I quite like my natural hair and I'm trying to embrace my natural curl.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm and I know that the benefit of not exposing my hair to extreme heat is it's bigger in the long run because I'm gonna keep my hair shine and I'm gonna keep my hair health.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, yeah.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I and I love that, and I think all we all go through that, you know, transition of just like I think natural is better anyway.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: So I I completely hear you on that.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: And thank you for the answer, by the way.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: I I knew it would be a hard thing to give a number for, but I just wanted to put that out there for everyone listening because you know, people love numbers.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: We love like this like black and white, you know, explanation, but I'm glad that you said that it really does depend on your hair type.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I want to move on and I want to talk about the air wrap because I know that you've had um a very special role in creating that.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I want you to tell us all about that and um how that came to be because I know when this product launched, I remember YouTube was going crazy.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think the first time I saw it was um the influencer Tati.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like she had it on there and she was like trying to uh work with it and show us how to use it.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I was just so intrigued.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, oh my gosh, what is this?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like, this is so cool.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: So um I would love for you to talk about the whole, you know, the science, the engineering, and all the good stuff um with that and explain it to us.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Arab it has a special place in my heart.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna lie.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's the first project that I worked in Dyson.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I was part of a big team.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: It was about, if I'm not wrong, 300 something engineers that we worked on Arab overall over the the course of four years.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was it was an amazing, like uh it was an amazing project to be part of, to be honest.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um again, the technology at the heart is our digital motor.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: So thankfully we had this tiny but really powerful motor that can help us deliver this amazing amount of pressure.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what's different different between Airwrap and Supersonic is I don't know if you'll agree with me, but I know how to use a hairdryer.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't that doesn't mean that I know how to style my hair.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: You still need some sort of like level of skill.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: You need some sort of skill to you know use a use a round brush or use a paddle brush with a hairdryer to create you know a blow dry.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not yeah, let me just let me just say this.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: I've never recreated what my stylist has done the day I got the haircut.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'll just leave it at that because I can do the hairdryer part, I can't do the styling.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I get it.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you you you I hear you, I know what you mean.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I think what we wanted to do with Airwrap was trying to mimic what a hairdresser would do, but trying to remove that level of skill.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: So we tried to make it as easy as possible.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and of course, professionals that's their job, they will always probably always do a much better job, but we wanted to make it affordable, we wanted to make it doable, we wanted to remove that skill.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if someone really wanted to have amazing waves or really glamorous curls on a Tuesday morning, they can do it.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what that's that's what Airb was.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now we we understood that there were problems with the existing sort of like styler, some of them used air, but they're also used some sort of mechanical, you know, rotation device, or they try to be like really clever and uh you know physically like mechanically rotate, and they're they weren't performing really well, they actually got stuck into people's heads, and that was that was a nightmare.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then if you look at the other type of like hurlers, um they they really rely on high temperatures, things like wands and tongs.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we wanted to stay away from that.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And as I said, Dyson, we we have an amazing team of uh aerodynamics and fluid dynamics.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously, someone said, Oh, what if we use the Koanda effect?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm quite familiar with the Koanda effect now, but back then I had absolutely no idea what they were talking about.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, someone should tell us everything because I have no idea what you're talking about.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, oh no.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, what is the corner effect?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: So the Koanda effect um is a it's a physical phenomenon, something that happens in nature.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually it gets its name after a physicist, a Romanian physicist from the 1930s, called Henry Koanda, who coined the the term by um designing air wing foils.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: So he was working on um airplanes, and there's an effect when you have a difference of pressures where the air tends to attach to a curved surface rather than bouncing off that surface.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's something that happens in nature, it's not something that we invented, but what we did is that we applied that principle into a curler, which is something that no one has ever done.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because as I said, most curlers either use some sort of mechanical rotation device or needed the person, like the user, to wrap the hair around it manually.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, what Airab does, especially the curling barrels, is that they use this quantum effect to their advantage to attach the hair automatically, almost like without having to interfere.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: All you have to do is like get the hair dressed close to the barrel, and then the hair will just attach.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it will attach around the barrel because we have um six air slots where you have this like really high pressure air coming out of them because of our V9 motor, um, and that creates this sort of like vortex of air, and that's what makes the curl using only air.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: And because we and because we can we can modify the hair tresses with that combination of um air and temperature, we don't really need to rely on high temperatures because we have that really powerful amount of air.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's actually quite a nice natural finish style, uh thing.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And again, this is something that will vary depending on your hair type, and we know that uh fine hair types will probably don't hold a style for as long as coarser hair types would do.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when if if you had fine hair, we would probably recommend you to use a tighter barrel, so like the 20 mm barrel would be probably best.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: If you have coarse hair, then maybe using one of the bigger barrels would create the same effect.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: So when it came to airwrap, we really, really needed to understand hair types and how um different hair types and different style aspirations will require different needs.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we have short barrels, we have long barrels, we had thin barrels, we have big barrels.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's the magic, in my opinion, of airwrap is that the technology is there and you just personalize it depending on what you want to achieve.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I was actually gonna ask you because I was like, you know, um, so I'm very interested in like how you explain the the quand effect because so what is like the um, I guess I don't know what the right word would be, but like the amount of I guess uh velocity or something to get something to adhere because of just airflow?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like, is there like a a number or does that also vary with hair type?
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like how yeah, no, so so the actual velocity coming the velocity of the air coming out of the barrel is pretty much standard that wouldn't really change depending on your hair type.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: What would what would be different is um depending on your flow setting.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: So air rub has three flow settings has low, medium, and high.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: High is what we recommend to use whenever you're using the barrels.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because um high velocity airflow will translate into a better attachment of the hair to the surface, so more koanda if you want to think that that way.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the velocity would vary depending on the big uh it will vary based on the diameter of the barrel.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: So the bigger barrels will have um uh slightly more velocity because you have less uh gaps in between.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's for the longer barrels, and then the shorter barrels we have more uh gaps, so the velocity might change.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: But overall yeah, overall uh they should all be the same and it shouldn't really affect with your hair type.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: What will be affected by not your hair type, but the amount of hair that you put is how tight the curl is.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why we we understand that there's a learning curve of switching from a conventional hairstyler to air wrap because you really need to be a bit more mindful of the amount of hair that you put um and to just section your hair essentially.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think you know, for me, like I know when it first came out, people were like really trying to figure out like what the you know optimal amount of hair to use is, you know, but for me, I think I was just so mesmerized by the fact that my hair is wrapping around like with this like cool like airflow, and I was just like so geeking out over that.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: I never had problems, like it just it worked so beautifully um when I tried it.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I just don't know that's because I'm a geek, but well, no, I I think that's absolutely fine.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know what's really funny is that we as um you know, the people that work on the product, we always assume that people will use it how we design it to be used, but actually people are so creative, like they came up with like all these different ways of using the barrels.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: In like, you know, the beach wave, the beach wave is something that we always thought, well, maybe the virus cannot do it, but people came up with a technique when they you know turn the product upside down and then they wrap it around and then they make sure that the ends stay straight and they can do like beach waves.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: And this is something that actually I think Jen Jen Atkin was probably one of the first people that um because we work with, as I said, with lots of professionals, and sometimes we have to um get their feedback before we even launch a product.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember Jen coming to one of the labs and saying, like, oh, why don't you use it this way?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we were like, Oh, actually, yeah, that makes sense.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's so cool.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: So people people always um will come up with like new ways to use it, and I think that's so cool to see.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, so those are the barrels.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's a counter fake, but the cwanda fake.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: Even without the barrel, though, I remember like I'm I told you like I I watched Tati's videos a lot, and she was like using, I remember when it came out, she was like taking off the um barrels, and she was like, you can also use this to dry your mist after you put on your makeup because it's very nice and it feels lovely on the skin.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I was like, okay, that tells me it's an amazing product because she's putting the actual air that's coming out on her skin.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: So it was really cool.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, yeah.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: No, it was it's really cool.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I I you know I love that explanation.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for that.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I know um I really want to talk about the corral as well, because the corral for me is actually so like I was blown away when I first like started reading about it and stuff because the the bending of the copper plates.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: So could you also walk us through that one?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's really, really cool as well.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um absolutely.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: So Corral is quite an interesting project.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we knew that we wanted to stay away from extreme heat.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's why we developed the intelligent heat control on supersonic and on air.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: But we also knew that certain hair types will always try to achieve that like really slick straightness.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: So something that with air sometimes is really hard to achieve unless you're like a real pro with like the round brush, for example.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we decided to embark in this like hair straightener world by trying to minimize heat damage as much as possible.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we thought about you know, how can we do it?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: What are the constraints of current hair straighteners and what makes them so bad?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or well, not so bad, because they still do the job, but what what can we improve?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think the main the main thing that we realize is that all hair straighteners use solid plates.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna try to paint a picture.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see if I can do it.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if you put your two hands together and pretend to be holding a bunch of spaghetti, like dry spaghetti, um, as you get your like palms closer, some of that spaghetti is gonna start to like fall out because you can't apply that tension evenly across all the spaghetti strands, right?
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: So this is what happens in your hair when you have two solid faces trying to like press against hair, some of the ends are always gonna splay.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what makes people go over a section of hair time and time and time again until they get it as straight as they want it to be.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we said, okay, if we were if if we break the straightness process into like what are the key components, um, straightening is basically the combination of temperature, because you need to modify the hair structure, but also tension.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: So if we improve the tension, maybe we can minimize the temperature and still get the same hairstyle.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, what we started to explore is how can we apply that hair, uh how can we apply the tension to the hair evenly as much as we can.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how we came up with the idea of having flexing plates.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what the plates do is that they adapt to the shape of the hair or the spaghetti in this metaphor, um, and they corral the hair in a way that both the force that you're applying and the temperature that you're applying is gonna concentrate all in all the spaghetti as you go along the hair.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: So that's cool, yeah.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: It it was quite a challenge to find the right material to create that flexibility.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was quite a challenge to find the right um uh you know, temperature, heat control.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was quite a challenging process, and on top of that, we also made it cordless, so yeah, because it wasn't hard enough as it is, you know, in the true spirit of science.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: They had to make it impossible to create.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think we were just like really excited about the challenge, and I am actually really pleased with the result.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: I know like it it's a big team of engineers that work on that, and designers, and hair scientists, and I mean, we don't talk about them too much, but you know, like the commercial teams, the legal teams, finance, everyone that works on Corral.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think they should be really proud of the job that they did, and it's um I think it's really good.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's probably the product that I use the most out of the three, because as you said, I've got I've got like curly freezy hair, so I quite like um using corral in a medium heat setting, uh which is um in Fahrenheit.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how much it's in Fahrenheit actually.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: In Celsius is 160 degrees, so that's what I like using, and I think that works well.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't need to go over and over and over again because one slow pass basically contains the whole tress, and I know that the heat has been applied evenly, so it minimizes the heat damage, but also minimizes the mechanical damage because I only need to go maybe once or twice per section.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that's corral basically.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I love the corral because that's exactly see, this is why I want to talk to you about it because uh the one styling tool, like even in high school that I was using was like a straightener, because you know, like the whole look was in you know, 90s, you know, all that good stuff.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: And like um, I remember just like doing the exact thing that you just mentioned, which is going over my same section of hair over and over and over again.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: I used to think myself, like when I would touch my hair, because my hair is very dark, like almost black.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so when I would touch it, I was like, oh my gosh, like this is like hurting my fingers, like because of so much heat, you know.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's really interesting.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think we've all been through that.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh have did you ever like iron your hair with an actual clothes iron?
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: What's that?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: Did you ever like straighten your hair with a clothes iron?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, but people are doing that, or what?
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think I must have been like 13.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: The first like the first time that I saw someone doing it, it was like a slumber party, like a pajama party.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and all my friends were like, Oh, let's straighten her hairs, and they brought like a clothes iron, and I'm like, that's genius, you know, like yes.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously, once you do it, like once you realize it's not a good idea, so definitely don't do it.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: But I mean, you know, they were little scientists, and we have to explore, so I love that.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: No, I've I've I genuinely, you know, I can't tell you enough, Veronica.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like the science of beauty to me is the most interesting aspect of this whole industry.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I think like when you know, when you guys agreed to like come on to the show, I was just literally geeking out.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, this is gonna be the most amazing, like because the side the technology, and like you said, like you it's you challenge the norms and the you know, not just that, but you go above and beyond.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: And that is what I think needs to be at the heart of like anything that's innovative, anything that's breakthrough, you know.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, thank you so much for taking the time and explaining to us the nitty-gritty science and the and the details, because this is I think you know what we need, like as consumers, like we need to understand why we're using what we're using and how to optimize, you know, the results of what we want, you know, for the product.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: So I love it.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm glad.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, no, and I and I'm really, really happy to be on your show.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh the more we talk about it, the more questions there will be.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what we want.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: We want to have this conversation.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: We want to be challenged and we want to, you know, improve our products as much as we can, and we want to learn from people's experiences as well.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, anytime uh I'll be more than happy to talk about more hits.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, I will have you on all the time.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: Don't tell me that because I will be booking your calendar up.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but everyone listening, I hope you loved this episode.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I know Veronica is a true genius, and I hope you learned as much as I did from her.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_03: And if you have any questions at all, yeah, definitely leave them in the comments.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: You know, send us a message, send us a voice message, whatever, you know, get in touch with us and we'll pass them along to Veronica's team and maybe get her back on to answer some of those questions.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_03: This is lovely.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: No problem.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: Hope to speak to you soon.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 45:47
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• 45:52
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• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: And that's very important for me because I love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of.
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• 46:35
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• 46:51
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.