Latest / Soul Salon with Ayandastood / 5: beauty & desirability Ft. Asherah aka @therealasherah

Transcript

5: beauty & desirability Ft. Asherah aka @therealasherah · Soul Salon with Ayandastood

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If you're trans, you just have to be extremely gorgeous, extremely palatable, extremely desirable.
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If you're a black, you have to have the makeup all the time.
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You just have to be palatable to European standards.
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You don't know who to trust.
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You put just accept the hometown version of people like you.
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The sun shines out of you and into me.
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Hello, sun shines and welcome to reimagining with I understood a podcast where we reframe,
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rethink and reimagine everything, standing in the way of love and liberation.
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I'm your host, Ayyanda, and I am delighted, enchanted, ecstatic, overjoyed to have a slice
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of your precious time today.
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Amazing. Okay, hi, Ashra and welcome to reimagining with I understood or I should really say reimagining
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with Ashra.
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I'm so excited to have you here today.
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I'm feeling so blessed and grateful to have you and just to be with you.
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And I feel like I've seen you stitching so many people and so I now see your face on my Zoom
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and I'm just feeling very delighted.
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So this is a brand new podcast and you're my first guest.
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I'm so excited.
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Like it's perfect.
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Yeah, everything comes full circle.
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I feel like I've been following you for, I don't know how long it is, but you're such a
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presence and someone who really stands out to me on TikTok and that I love.
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And so I just wanted to start each episode with a guest with a new ritual with an affirmation
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so that we can really be present in this moment together.
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I think as a black creator, especially, and I know your experience as a black trans creator,
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it can feel like it's a thankless job.
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And I guess I wanted to just make notes of how much you've impacted me, how much your
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content has really moved me and stuck with me and all these people all over the world
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who I'm sure are like thinking of you in moments that you never hear or learn about.
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So I guess I wanted to share that perspective today to know that you are thought of and
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you are felt.
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So I want to say, of course, that I am in love with your content, your voice, your perspective,
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your commitment to showing up for and uplifting other black creators and uplifting all the
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different communities that you're a part of.
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I feel like the way that you use your platform to both spread love.
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I think the tribute you made to lipgloss, for example, what you said about like who
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her content is for and the black goals who feel misplaced.
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I was like, that really stuck with me.
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That was so powerful.
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And then also how you use it to have these like critiques that just get to the absolute
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hearts of the issue or the topic, but it's also so generous in the way that you share
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your own experience.
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You'll often like use yourself as an example.
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And that's something I really struggle with.
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It's hard to be vulnerable and like name your own privileges and speak through that lens
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as well as the ways that you're a priest.
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So I think that's just a fantastic practice that you do where you're always interacting
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with other creators.
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And it's like, your page is like, it has this community feel, which I really like.
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And so I just wanted to say I see you in Zulu, my native language, which I can't speak.
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And I'm ashamed.
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But we say, so what now, which means hello.
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And that literally translates directly to I see you.
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And so I wanted to say the sun shines from you into me and I'm so, so grateful to have
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you with me today.
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Thank you so much.
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That means so much.
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Honestly.
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You know, you are most welcome.
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So with that, I would love to start with a question that is an invitation from Audrey
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Lord.
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And it powerfully and simply is what do you need to say?
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I always feel like I need to say what I feel from my heart because I feel like my heart
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is compiled of my subconscious and different things that I think about the world myself.
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How I perceive how I perceive others, how my lens, my unique lens of how I see the
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world and how I interpret my surroundings.
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So that is basically everything I want to say, the beauty of the world, the ugliness,
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the chaos, the magic, everything.
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So can you say more about that?
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I love what you said about perception and how you feel the need to speak about both how
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you are being perceived and how you perceive others.
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I think that everyone, depending on their experiences, will perceive the world and perceive
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others differently.
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Some people see through a lens of bitterness.
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Some people see through a lens of pain.
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Some people see through a lens of gratitude.
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So I luckily enough have a positive mindset and I learned to have a balance between how
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I see the world.
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Sometimes I am bitter, sometimes I am pain, but sometimes I am grateful for the experiences
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I have because if not for these experiences, I don't think I would be the person I am
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today.
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I've gathered maybe not the strength, but the gratitude, I don't know if that's the best
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word to describe it to you, be the person I am.
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Yes, without your experiences, you wouldn't be the person you are today.
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And who are you in your own words?
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I am beautiful, I can be ugly, I am powerful, I am strong, I am the collective, I am
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God, I am space, I am time, I am important, I am valued, I am matter, I am a sister, I am
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a friend, I am talented, I am driven, and that's the thing that I try and tell myself all
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the time.
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I love, love, love all of those things.
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I think you mentioned so many different forms of things which I love it, like you're all
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things, you're both the adjective you used to describe yourself and then also the values
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that you have, the importance that you have, you mattering, I love how you said I am
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the collective, I am God, I am all these things and there's so much power in those, which
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of these do you think, these words that you use to describe yourself, do you have the
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strongest connection to?
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I think I am important and I have value, people can make me feel like I don't have value
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and I am not important and I shouldn't take up space and I know the importance of me
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taking up space and I know how it helps me and how it helps others.
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So every time people just like see me taking up space on our trigger quote unquote by my
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existence, I know that I am doing something important and I am not only living my truth
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but I am expressing the truth of many other people who don't have the privilege, like me
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to do so.
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Ah, love that, yes, and that brings it back to like how you are the collective and how
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you being in your truth enables, I love that enables others and I love what you said
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about how you're doing it in a way that other people don't have access to.
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And so to that point of other people, what do you think people most often get wrong
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about you?
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I think people get most wrong about me, people quote unquote think that this might
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sound controversial that I am a good person but I don't think you can be defined by good
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and bad.
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I don't like to put myself in that bracket.
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I put myself because I feel like I try to have a balance between the two because I feel
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like a typical quote unquote good person doesn't have boundaries to stand up for themselves
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or like doesn't put themselves first and as much as I do a lot for other people, I would
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do anything to put myself first and I am selfish in the sense where like I look out for myself
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when I look out for what's best for me before I do anything like in the airplane you put
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your oxygen mask on before anyone else because actually I'm living like for me and everything
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I do should be in my self interest first before it was I care about I try to remind myself
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about.
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I love that.
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I feel like in one of your videos you say we're all horrible and I think that's such
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a more honest version of it of the truth because I think this attachment to being a good
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person or thinking of yourself as a good person is based so much in like an illusion is no
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such thing.
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And so owning that and it's something that I think about a lot where it's like you don't
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want to be put on a pedestal.
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You maybe have values that you're able to articulate in a certain way, but we're all a mixture
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of many different things.
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It's interesting that for you being a good person has this self sacrificial element to it,
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I think it's better to embrace that there's no good without the bad and vice versa.
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And then in your life, your daily life or in general, what fills your heart with joy?
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Many things do fill my heart with joy, but I think one of the first things I think would
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be music, art, expression of any kind.
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I just love when people just make statements, even if it's in what people wear or if it's
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in music or if it's in art or it feels my heart with joy, seeing it done in different ways,
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how people have a different expression of sadness or joy or pain.
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For some people, it might look more deeper, it might look less deep.
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I feel like the way, for example, Taylor Swift would articulate pain is different from
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doing like an Adele or Amy Winehouse with like, they would maybe interpret pain more,
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melancholy, and hers is kind of just like sad, but not so it's different to see how different
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people express themselves. It brings me joy.
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Yes, different forms of expression.
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I haven't thought about it that way.
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I've been thinking a lot about how people transform melancholy and joy into art and how powerful
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that is and also just how when we feel pain, we gravitate to kind of expressing it or to sharing it
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or making art of it and I think that's really beautiful.
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And then on the flip side of that question, what breaks your heart?
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More breaks my heart. I think the first thing that breaks my heart in life is bigotry.
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It irritates me but it breaks my heart in the sense where like, because people just don't care
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or don't know any better or have misinformed opinions, they literally affect the lives of
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millions of people who you don't know. They form misinformed narrative misconceptions about
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people that you've never met, you've never spoken to based off little to no knowledge.
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I remember having a friend and before she met me, she was super transphobic.
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Like she didn't have the knowledge that she did now but because she's been friends for a while
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and she's seen me grow. She could see who I was on the inside and it took her knowing me
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to not be bigoted towards trans people because she could see me for me if that makes sense.
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Other than what strangers on the internet don't know what I've gone through, she could see me
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for me like she knew me. So it was sad she was telling me that she hadn't met me last.
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She wouldn't know these things. She's had her brothers and it takes just meeting one person
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of a different experience to empathize with them. I think it's quite sad how people just have
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this hate in their heart and misconceptions about people they don't even know and it takes
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them meeting this person even to change their mind completely which is that breaks my heart.
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That breaks my heart as well. I love that that's the first thing I came to mind for you.
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Like I mean bigotry I agree. I'm curious like that's such an interesting tension because on the one
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hand it's like it's amazing to be a vessel for someone to have opened their heart up to like love
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and realize their own bigotry but on the other there's this like kind of dehumanizing feeling of
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how could you be just one person away from hating all of my people like does that and also how
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these things exist in our most intimate relationship. So there's almost an element of
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not forgiveness but there's something underlying that they were and also trust.
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Like can you ever fully trust that you're not just this exception to someone? So how do you grapple
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with that? I try my best to the what I don't know I think that friend was an exception I think
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I try my best to surround myself with people that are genuine and who already like
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have a similar experience to mine and it's just to protect myself because on surface level maybe
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because of privileges I have or because they're closer to me I'm a more proximity to them they
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might feel the need to respect me and not respect other people like me. So there's a huge fear where
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I had an interaction with a person I was speaking to I think in a romantic way and I just saw
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on their Instagram story they not only said something very misogynistic they said something extremely
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chanceful and I called them out on it like why would you do something like that and it was like the
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I expected him to be like cool to me I felt like because I was the more desirable trans woman
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woman that he was bashing was I was in society's eyes less desirable he was like making it look like
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I was different than she was so it was like he can only accept us in this form where for me like
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hyper feminine desirable beautiful so it was heartbreaking to see how people quote on quote like
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are accepting of you but they accept people like you in this less toned down manner like
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if you're trans you just have to be extremely gorgeous extremely palatable extremely desirable
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extremely this or if you're black you have to have the makeup all the time you just have to be
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palatable to your pan standards yes so it's because you don't know who to trust because
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people just accept the toned down version of people like you wow yes yes that is so heartbreaking
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thank you for sharing that and I feel like you wrapped such powerful words around that experience
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because it's like a false kind of acceptance where although if they have like a checklist of the
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things that they're using to justify that acceptance it's still rooted in it's deeply rooted in not
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even still anti-blackness transphobia all the things that you thought that in them loving you they
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didn't stand for and not only purely that but just in that relationship and so that word heartbreaking
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is the perfect word and it's saddening that this we're talking about these like really intimate
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relationships where you put your trust in maybe your god is down and it's sad that in your experience
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as you're like in these close relationships that you've mentioned how they even those relationships
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are not a safe place and like that exists for family for friends for lovers for partners and so
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I'm curious on that point like you already kind of I want to dig deeper on this question kind of
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getting into the conversation around beauty and desirability and you've already taken us there
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I love the things that you were mentioning about having to be you mentioned that word a lot
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having to be palatable having to be hyper feminine and requirement of especially black trans women
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to be hyper feminine and to and like appearance matters I know you've spoken on your tick talk about
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how based on how you present you will go on a different feedback so I'm curious like how have
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beauty, desirability and ugliness affected you on an offline throughout your life
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it's very complex than nuance but I remember starting to talk about a year ago and I had a
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friend who studied it years before me and she's a black trans woman she's beautiful in her own right
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but to other people she's not perceived as desirable and she's someone asked like why wouldn't you
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take tick talk seriously why don't you want to take it she said no one's going to listen to me because
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I'm not desirable and I knew immediately because I've had an experience where because of the
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features I had the only ugliness I quote on co-hat is looking queer and looking trans but I've never
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had that experience where I've been made fun of because of my features I can count the amount of
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times I've been called ugly in my life so I don't know what that feels like but I don't know what it
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feels like to look very queer and that is equated to ugliness like in between the androgyning I grew
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up as a very androgynous child and people could never place me based on how I look they I always got
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questions like are you a girl or a boy are you trans are you queer very early so that was my
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perception of ugliness because people could not put me in a bracket I feel like men wouldn't know
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how to sexualize me and then they would then be angry about it then when now I fit into this
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standard of a very hyper feminine cis beauty standard of looking a specific way and having a
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specific type of look is the most privileged I've ever been in my life and I feel like
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people take me more seriously people are nice to me for the first time I didn't like to pass
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one on quote when I people would especially men men would open the doors for me men would see me and
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like because it was always in between it was never in between in the sense where like it was either
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hate crime or objectification and now it's an objectification in the sense where like I'm able to
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garner privileges because men see me as desirable and on the platform I realized how much growth
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I've had in the sense where like I talk about very serious things I don't even like show off
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my beauty I just like try and look as presentable as possible and people get distracted from the
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message in the sense where like it's like instead of this thing to what I'm saying it's like
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you're gorgeous you're beautiful you're this and it's like sometimes I feel like people don't want
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to see me and my intellect my talent the work I put on the inside but they want to see the outside
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and in romantic relationships as much as I do have a privilege where my desirability gives me more
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of a privilege to then other trans women where some men might want to be seen with me some men might
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want to take me more but I feel like they only see me for how I look and the sexual desirability
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I can give to them if that makes sense because for the sexual like gratification because with men
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I don't think I've ever had a male friend before in the sense where like they either attract
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it to me or they either like hate me I've never had a situation where they hadn't romantically or
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sexually just wanted to exploit me so it's this experience where you work so hard on the inside
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and everyone just wants to see the outside and comment on the outside and as much as it's not
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painful in the sense where I am a very hyper feminine person and I've always been very feminine
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and I love feminine things and I was always a very feminine child like the little marmaid like I
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was in tears because that was the kind of stuff I loved and I feel like I was bawling and crying
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because that was the kind of thing I loved and I was never allowed to express so I feel like I'm
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living through my childhood like I just have stuff like this with me all the time so I just feel
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the hyper femininity is truly who I am but it's I feel like it's all people want to see they don't
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want to see beneath all this because if I were like an Instagram model or like the first chapter
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it would make sense as to why people are looking at my looks but I'm saying very important things
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and it's like they keep crossing by and even in relationships I'm doing a lot of things like I'm
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the therapist I'm the friend I'm everything but it's still how I look that is the most valuable to
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them yes yes yeah wow you said so many things that was so powerful and there are many many things
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that I want to unpack within that that I also have noticed in your comment sections yes there's
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so much I love your hair like I love the pink I love your voice and I can imagine that and I love
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the parallel you drew with that and relationships and being flattened and how desirability leads to
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this kind of shallow engagement with who you are as a person who is a very deep person a very
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profound person a very theoretical and intellect like deeply invested in like kind of getting to
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the nature of things and having really really important things to say like uplifting people's
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go fund me is like drawing as you said you draw so much everything you speak about is so deep
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and important and you speak about violence and beauty and the Madonna whole complex and misandry
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and so I can imagine how deflating it is when the comments are not engaging with the substance
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of what you're putting out I feel like in those experiences both romantic like on an offline like
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in those romantic relationships and on the internet it seems like you're seeking for a deeper
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engagement like how do you deal with that once you recognize like for example in a relationship
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that this person is only honoring you for your desirability and you want more than that how have
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you over time learned how to react or respond and I know we shouldn't focus on the response I'm
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just curious how in your tool as you've grown as you've learned and as you've recognized this pattern
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how do you feel like you're responding to it if at all I someone who grew up very selfless and like
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I want to do everything to make my partner happy and I found that this actual desirability was what
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made them happy so now I withdraw it as much as possible and as much as like if my annoyance of
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people but I make sure to withdraw sex or any kind of sexual talk or interaction as much as
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possible and like try to get to make sure the person wants to know me wants to know how I'm doing
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wants to know what I'm thinking I want to see me for who I am on the inside of course they
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appreciate my looks even I can appreciate looks I love how people express themselves also
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alongside with who they are on the inside it's you know I just try to create a balance between
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it's you so it's not like I'm just this trophy yes I love that yeah I'm glad that you found that
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way and I love what you said like what are you thinking I always feel that attention to me is such
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critical like love language like someone who deeply attends to you like attends to you what you're
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thinking what you're feeling and cares about those random runs that you want to go on and it can be
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difficult to and I feel like based on what you're sharing it's nice that you've found the kind of
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green flags for you in that respect I want to go back to something else you said that I feel like
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so many things you said about being online and specifically what you said about how your
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black trance woman friend she said that no one's going to listen to me because I'm not desirable
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that was such a powerful like I feel like wrapped up how desirability beauty and silencing
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interact and such in a very like concise way knowing that it seems like your approach to creation
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it's almost like it's out of love but it also there's a sense of responsibility and so I guess
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how do you then use your desirability as a weapon as a tool in what you do and in what you create
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because it seems there's an element of that within your content but I'm curious if that's
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reaching or not I'm glad you noticed that because I don't think people notice I think with
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desirability I'm looking quite attractive I'm someone who's at his attention to detail and growing
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up my mom was someone who was so very beautiful and desirable and I would just I adored her I adored
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everything she did I loved the way that she walked the way that she talked and it was who she is but
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it was very manufactured in how like she could switch her accent she would speak softly she could
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make her voice lower to some more sensual or all those kind of things so I sat down and studied
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I studied women like Margarita Monroe I studied Naomi Campbell I studied Rihanna and I noticed
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little things to how they pop their lips or how they move their hair or how to switch their eyes
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I studied everything to make sure I could embody that perfect way that I walk everything is
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rehearsed to the way my hair looks as much as the passion of mine it's rehearsed and people
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notice it I feel like the difference between I would go out if I were a lip gloss and didn't
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wear lip glosses different or if I have pink hair I find people are more receptive to very feminine
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others like a few people are just so excited when I have hair styles like this or the way like I
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would walk or the way that I would what's called it will all depend on the person and it's I've
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also tried to do that on social media with like as much as I'm saying important things I try to the
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way I look at the camera with my body language because I obviously know people respond to these
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things and like even if it's little details that I want to give up let's see like sometimes I go
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in front of the mirror and I look at what I'm wearing and then I embody like the character of
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what I'm wearing in the sense whereas like do I want to intimidate people today do I want to
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welcome people today so I do the same thing on TikTok like depending on the message I could wear
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something different or I could change my voice slightly so it's all rehearsed and manufactured
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just because I saw my mother doing that the most and that's how she just got everyone around her
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to like her to be super what's the called with stuff because I feel like life is all about
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perception and how people perceive you I am someone who's quite anxious my mom was very like
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social and like to talk a lot so she was very friendly so because I'm already very like to my
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soft and reserved I've gone through the mysterious route to look at some mysterious so I do it online
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and in person as much as I am vulnerable I don't like to give too much information and keep my
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I don't like to respond too much I don't respond to comments as much so it's also create this
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perception and this persona that people are actually receptive to because people actually
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notice these things I'm even surprised you did but like it does work wow I love that that's so
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interesting the word manufactured rehearsed and the way that you move from observing your mom's
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observing these people these celebrities and then how it's kind of deployed in a really deliberate
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way even if it seems effortless or if it seems really natural that there is a thought behind
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each thing you're doing in your content I think that's so interesting and like yeah I think that
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it's clearly working so that's awesome it's interesting like balancing this idea of this
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approachable person but with this persona that you mentioned and I also think there's another
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thing you said that I think was really stuck with me and you speak about it on your content a lot
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you said that you went through like you don't have much experience with ugliness and when you did
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it was only when it was being equated to queerness in a way that didn't like resonate with you but
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then that you've never been treated better now or in what do you make of that like there's also
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another quote in your video where you say when we as trans people are perceived as cis for most
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of us it is probably the best experience of our lives and you think that we would give that away
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the workers with you not us I thought that was so powerful and stuck with me but I would just
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want to dig deeper into that because it's just an amazing thing to say it just really stuck with me
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and so I wanted to hear more about that from you and from some of the nuances there that you've
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been speaking about on your platform as well I think when I started to pass or fit that standard
26:37
it was a relief that I could get to live my life and then I could be perceived as who actually
26:41
was on the inside but it felt like a slap on the face to the horrible life and experience I've
26:48
had before this and how just obviously this change is amazing and the changes I'm experiencing
26:55
medically and socially are completely like life changing and they've saved my life but
27:00
it's so crazy how the little detail will change how people give you humanity based on how
27:08
they don't so little details like changing my voice like we are talking higher or just telling people
27:14
I'm trans it will literally start how they will give me humanity or how they will give me and
27:20
it's harmful it's disgusting but it's great that I but it's like I don't believe that humanity or
27:27
respect or decency should be conditioned not to how people how you perceive people based off
27:33
respectability politics and etc so it made me feel like my whole life she did like or I believe by
27:41
people I just respected people to I didn't even expect I didn't even live in a world where people
27:45
would open doors so usually they would slam it in my face and just like give me like death
27:49
glare so like living in a world where I walk by and I get compliments all the time people are smiling
27:56
men are gawking these little details show how ridiculous human beings are and how we need to work
28:03
on giving humanity to everyone not just people we deem as desirable we deem as valuable because
28:10
we are all valuable I was valuable as a child and I'm valuable now and it has nothing to do with this
28:16
change I always mattered and me mattering doesn't have to do with how desirable I am to
28:23
this world many trans people of course have many different experiences some people go from
28:29
being perceived as this to them being perceived as trans and it's very different from me where
28:35
it was the opposite and it's heartbreaking and it's bittersweet how horrible that is and how people
28:43
just afford you good treatment depending on what standard you fit in at 100 and thousand percent
28:50
I feel so aligned to that and the feeling of unconditional humanity and mattering and I love how
28:56
that brings us connects us back to what you started with where you said I matter and you said that
29:01
twice and that's something that should be impossible to take away from people and yet it happens
29:08
all the time in the name of desirability and in the name of who gets to decide whose ideologies
29:14
get to be asserted on the rest of the world and then that becomes the measure for everyone else
29:18
and so I love what you said I always mattered and me mattering isn't contingent on how desirable
29:24
I am to cisgender people or how undesirable I am so to that point moving us from the personal
29:29
narrative I want to keep that as the thread but to theoretically like as a result of this what role
29:36
do you think beauty should play in people's in the world how would you define beauty or what are your
29:41
thoughts how would you reimagine desirability for example or knowing what you've experienced what
29:47
your friends have experienced and what we've been speaking about what do you like take away in terms
29:51
of what you believe about desirability beauty ugliness humanity anything that comes up for you like
29:58
maybe philosophically I feel like anyone I've ever loved or been in love with I don't think it's
30:05
ever been about their looks if they've never been a typical type of mind I've always been able to see
30:11
them dp for who they are and it was attributes of their humanity in the sense of how kind they
30:19
were how deep they were I love people who are sweet and attentive creative and they have good
30:27
and batteries to them they're patient they're witty they're funny those are the kind of things that
30:32
make me attracted to a human being it's so much deeper than the physical body and those that
30:39
I've never forgotten those that have a special place in my heart have always possessed these qualities
30:45
regardless of how they looked because I had friends in the sense were like I would show them someone
30:50
I was speaking to and they'll be like girl you can do better but you don't even know this person
30:55
you don't even know how they treat me yeah even know how they make me feel yes that's the most
31:00
important thing that's the beauty I see in people and that's the beauty I would like to be seen in me
31:06
and see in everybody because those are the only people I've truly fallen in love with just having
31:12
conversations with them and like watching them talk about something they're passionate about that
31:16
is one of the most beautiful things just hearing people talk about what they love and talking about
31:21
what drives them in this world so those are the things I think we should base beauty on
31:28
yeah as much as we like the physical and all kinds of things but that's different in the sense
31:33
where like that's a sexual thing and even the inside affects the what's it called because as soon
31:39
as I form emotions with you I don't care what you have I will just be gravitated towards you or
31:44
like I feel like the sexual experience even would be more powerful so it's always the little things
31:50
even in sexual experiences where like they just like you're cutting and they just grab you and hold
31:55
you if you feel safe and make you feel heard so those are the kind of things that I've always looked
32:01
out for I think the world is too superficial and materialistic and I think that's one thing that
32:06
saved me from a lot of things I think everyone is horrible regardless of however they identify
32:10
whatever they wanted you but what I found is I found safety and I found comfort in people who are
32:17
less superficial than less materialistic want to see people and get to know people and connect
32:23
with people on a deeper level rather than just like for their bodies for their money for their
32:28
clouds for their what's it called so it's always been all about who people are intrinsically on the
32:35
inside and how that can be relatable to what is on the outside like as much as people looking
32:40
physically nice is always great and all but one thing that may attract me to someone is the
32:46
fashion in the sense where like not the rich clothes but how like detailed it is in the sense
32:51
where like well you're wearing a t-shirt from your favorite group or you're wearing something that
32:56
is spiritual or has the sense of those kind of things so even if beauty is on the outside
33:02
which is how the inside matches the outside because we are visual creatures so as much as how
33:08
people looking is great and all but how people also express themselves is a reflection of who they
33:14
are on the inside how I express myself is a reflection of who I am on the inside at all times I
33:18
have this on all the time my hair is always pink and I love to express myself depending on how I'm
33:24
feeling sometimes I wear dark colors sometimes I wear pink colors sometimes I want to reflect my
33:28
childhood sometimes I want to reflect my interests sometimes I want to reflect my beliefs so I think
33:34
that's what beauty should and that's how I see beauty because the typical cis hat man like
33:39
dressing the way he does would not attract me different than a man who is able to
33:44
be vulnerable expresses emotions a man who's able to think and make me feel safe and make me feel
33:50
hurt and make me feel beautiful not just on the inside but like really look at me and like be like
33:56
you're beautiful but not from my essence rather than my form yes so it sounds like
34:03
there's this commitment you have to the humanity of all human beings and then to a form of beauty that
34:09
is more about people's values people's energy the way people choose to treat other human beings
34:16
and that that should be the fundamental beauty and so one issue is this like the hierarchy is
34:21
inverted where currently people's physical beauty as to capital B beauty as defined by the systems
34:28
of oppression is prioritized instead of their more like inner beauty but then also that there is
34:34
this draw to people for you who express themselves in certain ways I think for me adding to that
34:40
the stakes of it shouldn't be so high so it's like for me it's there's also this thing of course
34:46
number one there's like we've been conditioned to see different people as beautiful and many people
34:50
have unlearned that but many people feel like past the point of being able to unlearn that but many
34:55
skills people have or people maybe one person is really good with other human beings one person's
35:00
really good with children and another person is good at art but the stakes of that aren't going to
35:05
have a doctor like believe or disbelieve them or a police officer like but there so the stakes of
35:11
desirability are far too high and I feel like it's this toxic thing that exists in people subconscious
35:17
where like they're viewing it on an individual level but it's happening at such a level of structural
35:21
violence in terms of from bullying and interpersonal violence to state violence and so I'm curious if
35:28
you think that physical beauty can be inclusive and is inclusion the answer to all of this I don't
35:35
think it is in my experience make that beauty for transness or if it's plus sized people we
35:42
create it where like it's conditional to meeting certain standards like a perfect show an example
35:47
is euphoria like as much as hunter shaper and barbie forever have done a lot for their communities but
35:54
they are extremely palatable and extremely desirable to you the media that we have now hunter is
36:01
white blonde passing barbie forever has a very um our glass shape she has certain features what about
36:09
a woman who is black has an apple shape and it's that what do we have to say about her or trans
36:16
women who don't pass or trans women who are masculine for example or choose to not medically or
36:23
socially transition what do we have so if we say it's inclusive is it really inclusive if we're
36:28
creating standards because beauty is in this society never going to be something that all of us
36:34
can bear because with beauty there has to be ugliness exactly so a part of me like watching that
36:40
video that you made was so scared because it's like if we remove beauty quote unquote like
36:46
beauty has changed my life beauty has given me a platform on my platform i wouldn't be able to do
36:51
so many things i would have now meet so many people beauty has truly changed my beauty my everyday
36:56
life has made me not think about so many things made me get away with things like make me know that I
37:02
can maybe cut in the line or like flirt with someone to get free drinks or something it's made my
37:08
life much easier so I always thought to myself if beauty is gone who would I be then I have to remind
37:13
myself that I more than my physical beauty and my physical desirability I would be me I would be my
37:21
talent I would be my intellect I would be what I would be my relationships with my friends I would be
37:27
my mind I would be my soul yes so I have to remind myself that because people constantly want to
37:34
remind me or or show me that it's just because of how you look but it's not just because of how I look
37:39
so I think that if we make it a society where beauty is inclusive quote unquote it becomes even more
37:47
divisive where we create standards for what quote unquote undesirable people should look like a
37:52
trans-presentative like this a fat person should look like this yes a black person should look
37:57
like this they never want us in our raw form if they want natural hair it has to be curly and loose
38:04
if they want dark skin they have to have small features if they want a fat body it has to be an
38:10
hourglass shape if they want a trans body it has to appease to cis beauty standards it's never
38:16
going to accommodate all of us and we'll never accommodate the people that need it the most yes
38:21
I think we need to eradicate beauty get rid of the concept and give people worth in humanity
38:29
just because they deserve it just because they're here yes my mom gave me this quote and I take it
38:35
with me every day because I was bullied in school and she always tried to give me quotes and affirmations
38:38
to make me feel better about it thank you mom I think it's the desid derata I think it's just like
38:45
the stars the trees I have a right to be here as the stars trees rock see say that again that's so
38:52
beautiful yeah just like the stars the trees I think rocks I don't know I have a right to be here
38:58
so everyone should know that they are valued and they don't even have to be productive they don't
39:03
even have to be talented they don't have to be hardworking just them being here is who value you
39:08
contribute to the universe you are a part of the universe you are the collective you are
39:13
god you are everything and everyone should feel that way no one should feel special because they
39:17
have followers or feel special because they're pretty special because they have those things and
39:22
even when you have those things people will use you for those things I'm not even wants to get to
39:26
know the real you so that's how useless in the sense materialism is in society because as you have
39:34
those things and people want to use those things exploit those things and not know you on a personal
39:40
level your value should just be being here existing yes exactly not being palatable not being this
39:49
everybody should know that there just as the trees have value our air has value the soil has value
39:55
so do we have value so yeah so as we have value we have value in our family we have value in
40:02
our community everyone is important and the issue that society has made it out to be is they make
40:09
the most important people feel unimportant they make women feel unimportant they make people feel
40:14
unimportant they make trans people feel unimportant and before colonialism and all this women trans people
40:21
where you know every yes they were the beacons of our society yes and now that they tried to make
40:27
us feel like we are valued it's crazy to me because we were the shamans and the priestess priest
40:35
whatever we were the beacons of our society and it was a community a socialist community I
40:42
would say in that sense I've not been seen socialist and practical in this society today but a
40:46
socialist society where every single person contributes equally to society we have now because
40:52
everyone has a different value it's more or less equality than seeing everybody's value and how
40:59
they can contribute to our society in their own way because everybody has their own things to offer
41:06
so that's a society we need to try to create not making one person seem more valuable than the other
41:12
we're all valuable we all contribute we all matter just as every creature matters and every element
41:19
matters and every form matters that's the society we should look to create absolutely I literally
41:26
agree with every single thing you've just said I love the commitment to beings as beings and that
41:32
we should be living in harmony with each other and that any form of hierarchy and you mentioned
41:36
so many there's desire there's also followers like even the way we speak oh this is a really big
41:41
creator oh she the way we speak there are so many naturalized hierarchies in our language and I
41:47
think that they all have got to go and I also absolutely love everything you said about inclusion
41:52
being an impossibility and the use of I also have spoken about euphoria I think it's such a great
41:57
example of the limits of inclusion and the falseness even of the promise of inclusion that it's
42:04
almost worse because as you said it's always including the palette the people who are palatable
42:08
to the Eurocentric beauty standard but it then becomes more difficult to critique because then even
42:13
your own community is saying to you oh you'll never be satisfied every time you try to make these
42:18
videos about inclusion and it's like no buts and there's black like so why would be complained
42:23
that she's not fat like we should complain like that all these people are able body that most of
42:27
them are cisgender that then when they are trans people they are whites they are thin they are like
42:33
the exact beauty standard that exists for femininity and so it becomes even more insidious because
42:39
then you get the marginalized you get the people who are like it's not that deep but it actually is
42:44
but it becomes more difficult to recognize and I also think it's interesting this point of
42:48
inclusion I just saw randomly this article and it was like Sarah Jessica Parker's complaint like
42:54
fights pushes back against like ageist beauty standards and I think the funny thing about beauty
42:59
is it will turn around and bite you like whether it's in you're gonna age climate change is going to
43:05
be a mask is already a master's abling event like we need to get on board we need to abolish beauty
43:11
and see the inherent value of everyone I think Beyonce is also a really good example of this where
43:15
she's celebrated as really beautiful and then we see that same ideology literally being used
43:20
to berate her child like what a world like in one generation something that propped you up
43:26
can be like removed from the ground and used to really harm your child who is a precious being
43:32
and so I think that's also why even people who are quote unquote oh I think that it affects everyone
43:39
but I think people should treat beauty as if they didn't know which side of it they would land and
43:44
then decide like should we be basing human value on this thing or is it just that you personally
43:50
are on the right side of it and even that is precarious because it could change at any moment
43:54
so that definitely energizes me and this commitment to not only to humanity but to
44:00
communion with the earth I think is also so critical and so important and what you said about how
44:06
they make I love this they make the most important feel unimportant that just said oh so many things
44:12
for me you mentioned women you mentioned trans people queer people old people like wow like there are
44:18
these beacons of our society as you say and it's all being inverted because they have to do a natural
44:24
things to uphold a natural power structures and beauty is one of those things so thank you for
44:30
everything you said it definitely sparked a lot in me so this idea of inclusion right I think a lot
44:35
of the work that's been done has been propelled by and advanced by a lot of black women and I feel
44:44
like you speak really powerfully about the nuances between black women and I really wanted our
44:49
audience to hear your thoughts on the diversity among us and like the your thoughts on this topic
44:55
I think discussing or having conversations with many black women from different places different
45:01
experiences different phenotypes like it's crazy how different our experiences are and how
45:08
we relate to each other on this and relate to each other on that because I just assumed because I
45:14
was consuming transphobic media I didn't think that trans women and cis women could have anything
45:18
in common and then I made friends I have my two best friends are black cis women and the amount
45:24
of things we had in common was very scary and the amount of things I have in common with and because
45:29
I fit into that standard where like I'm in the women's bathroom and they don't know I'm trans but I
45:33
don't know what they would do with you and you know there's this solidarity between us like seeing
45:39
each other complimenting each other on our hair or making like I remember I was walking from school one
45:44
day and it was a lighter skin black woman and she just stopped me with her daughter and she said like
45:50
you have yours she complimented my skin color which is something I was bullied for because I was
45:54
darker skin which I think as a lighter skinned woman she knows how darker skinned women are
45:59
she's complimented my skin and she told me how beautiful I was and it completely made my
46:04
dear I can see days where I wear my natural hair and a black woman will make sure to compliment me
46:08
because she knows how our hair is something that takes a long time for us to embrace our skin
46:14
or phenotype so not only interacting with black women I know that we have this universal experience
46:22
that we know how to ease each other's pain a lot of this time and know like I see you this experience
46:28
is very very specific and like I see you and I know how you feel so that has allowed me to have
46:36
solidarity and understand our experiences are very similar going out in my every day me and my
46:42
friends have similar experiences where because we're all queer presenting in the sense where like
46:47
it's queer but it's men like it because it's feminine and it's edgy quote-unquote we have
46:53
experiences where I think like we're harassed in the average person because this is quite bold
46:59
for where I live so we have experiences where I mean harass us that made us chase us down the street
47:06
even and be weird and annoying and like we bond in those experiences where like my friend had
47:12
what's her birthday and we wanted to take pictures normally and then we were taking pictures
47:16
on the road which is quite a normal thing but it's her birthday and then these like three white
47:20
men's popters my friend had a very beautiful loud hairstyle and afro and then he tried to touch
47:26
our hair and then we were like oh my god what the fuck are we gonna do like we started complimenting
47:31
each one of us and my friend's pop like I think he said something like once you go black he never
47:36
go back or something a weird ass statement which happens a lot of the time and my friend was like
47:42
you shouldn't say that for black women and then we got very aggressive and then we just had to
47:45
like run away but I think we knew like we're still gonna take our pictures though so we found the
47:50
spot we saw how we took our pictures and we had a great so like because those kinds of things
47:55
happen and I told my white friend you know and she was like wow that never happens to me so it
48:01
was quite shocking like she felt so bad because she couldn't understand the world where that was
48:05
normal but we were like yeah that happens like most days so that kind of experience where white
48:11
men or men mostly men in general will just hypersexualize you dehumanize you like stroke your hair
48:18
call you black and you be in this that is something that we know of and many black women
48:24
know because we are extremely fetishized for our race and our desire to treat white women like
48:34
ladies quote unquote but to us who are a sexual conquest and we're not humanized so those are
48:39
experiences we can relate to we can we can I can also relate to you like having to be
48:44
palatable because people will automatically deem you especially white people as aggressive
48:49
as soon as you show any type of humanity of frustration with how you're being treated or with
48:53
the world in general you are suddenly aggressive even if you're not an aggressive person a sick
48:58
aggression is an emotion so that is something that we bond over being perceived how we are perceived
49:05
how we are treated how we're overlooked how we are used is something that we can all
49:12
is a universal experience for all black women and it comes in different ways the men that like
49:17
us the men that don't like us how they treat us how they don't treat us I have a different
49:22
experience in the sense where I fit a very your pain standard in the sense where I have smaller
49:27
features and I'm very thin and slender so I sadly attract a lot of white men and it's different in
49:34
the sense where my friend who is the West African beauty standard doesn't attract a lot of white
49:38
men she attracts more black men because she's curvier she has very beautiful West African features
49:43
and my friend who is lighter skin but has happens to have lighter eyes will
49:48
me attract men that are colorist in the sense more black men who are colorist so it's
49:54
very different experiences and how we're perceived and how we navigate the world and the privilege we
49:59
have in the privileges we Jones and that can be different because we're both from Nigeria that can
50:04
be different from women who are British or women who are American or women who are North African
50:10
or women who are from different parts of the world women who are cis women who are trans women who
50:14
look a certain way women who have quote unquote more masculine features women who have feminine features
50:19
women who are in STEM like my friend is in STEM and she has a very different experience she has a very
50:25
harsh experience in the sense where like she's because she addresses a certain way or she's very
50:29
desirable like people like treat her in a very different way where like they over obsessed over
50:37
everything she's doing like to the point where like she doesn't even show up the classes and so
50:43
overall this experience that we cannot be like we understand because we all know what that feels
50:49
like in different ways yes yes yes yes what about those I think that the way that you describe
50:58
the solidarity that exists among black women and I love the way that you described like surprised
51:03
at having so much in common and so much shared experience with black cis women I also know that
51:10
a lot of your content you also speak about the kind of flip side of this where where when you find
51:16
disconnection in the places that you're expecting connection or when you find othering and exclusion
51:21
in places that you're expecting inclusion and you speak about this from in the many different
51:26
communities you're part of like in the trans community in the black community and so I guess what
51:31
I observe is the solidarity that exists for example among black women typically exists among these
51:38
rungs of similarity where people we see the friend groups and they're all the like all we see
51:43
certain people hyper relating to each other but less across whether that's class or cis gender like
51:50
I feel like most of the friend groups we at least consume we're not seeing a lot of queer and
51:56
straight people or trans ancestors people and there's a lot of othering that happens in these
52:01
closed circles of black women forming solidarity and so that's not a true form of solidarity and so
52:06
I'm curious like I think you earlier said this thing that I want to go back to where you said that
52:11
when you started to think about how inclusion wasn't possible and beauty you felt fearful because
52:16
you were like well then what am I then and then it's like the things that make one person beautiful
52:22
is what makes someone else ugly and so if I'm committed to this true solidarity it's not only
52:27
oh our pain is the same but also if my joy is predicated on your pain then I don't want that joy
52:33
and that's kind of way I feel like I've landed on beauty way I feel like if they cannot be myself I
52:39
also occupy many different privileges being thin being cisgendered having as you said features
52:45
that appeal to your eccentric beauty standards if I can only feel delights in those things because
52:50
someone else is feeling pain then in solidarity with that it's like I don't want the delight obviously
52:55
we all want to feel delighted but what is that predicated on so I said many things but I guess just
53:01
touching on how do you think we can strengthen solidarity among for example black women across all
53:09
our experiences and all our privileges and disadvantages or privileges and oppression I think
53:15
there is a division within black people in general yes yes and in general I don't feel safe in any
53:23
spaces that are black as much as in black because I like don't feel safe but there is this people with
53:29
black men who typically are my oppressor if I am to be with any man quote unquote I would want
53:34
it to be someone who's black in the sense we're like there is this solidarity between the experience
53:40
we have on the hardship that we go through whether it's through our our ways experiences we have
53:46
how our communities it's very unique and it's something only black people can understand
53:52
so there is a clear division between us and it's very clear white supremely we have this individualist
53:58
you're on your own society lack of community society and I feel like a lot of black people have
54:03
internalized the idea of that which is quite we've made our love we've made our support
54:10
conditional to these European white patriarchal heteronormative standards which absolutely make no
54:17
sense to me in the sense where the bottom line should be this person is black they deserve your
54:24
humanity they deserve your support we should support one another it should not be conditional to
54:29
if they aren't doing any harm it should not be conditional to how
54:33
respectability politics or whether humanity is what's called the only black people I feel that
54:38
should be ostracized are the people that are doing real harm and you know murdering and killing
54:44
women queer people but if they're not doing any harm and they're just existing how does that
54:49
have anything to how does like we need to start to afford each other humanity because if we stop
54:57
the dividing and it pisses me off on TikTok because black people are always dividing for
55:03
whether it's straight cis black and diaspora wars whether it's literally like Guneans and Nigerians
55:09
were like right close to each other or South West East were just constantly divided on stupid things
55:16
like I don't understand where that comes from like I went to Notting Hill carnival and as much as
55:21
it was like it had it sounds like it was very beautiful and very powerful to be in a space
55:27
filled with black people black story black music black culture black food being in that space as
55:32
much as you know it was like there were experiences where like the men were quite predatory and
55:37
which is disgusting but being in that space where you just know your people are around you know
55:43
your music is around you you're free to speak in the accent you want to speak in or dance the
55:48
way you want to dance because I feel like in spaces that are non-black you have to just constantly
55:53
tone yourself down yeah or speak a certain way but when you're with black people you can turn
55:58
off you can dance you can just be your black self so it was important to be in that space regardless
56:04
the fears of spaces the fears and you know that men may have popped in that space but regardless
56:11
it was a very beautiful experience and I would do it again so the issue with black spaces or black
56:18
people in general is there's this division for stupid reasons I never know where it comes from
56:23
it's always rooted in things whether it's based on people's religion I always see it on people
56:26
everyday and it makes people angry because why does it matter what someone's leaving why does it
56:31
matter how someone identifies how does it matter world black yeah and one thing I've noticed with
56:37
other communities is especially there is division there they can point out and notice that this
56:42
is our own and that's one thing why people do that's why I don't know why people whether they're
56:46
clear or trans because they're always gonna stick up for their own you have white people defending
56:51
racist defending pedophiles like picking like picking even if it's as much as they do have
56:57
experience and care for beyond transphobia if black street or cis people think they're gonna pick
57:02
you over their queer or trans white people they're not gonna pick you yeah that's the truth there's
57:06
gonna pick their own they look out for their own and that's something that we don't do black people
57:11
no specificity black marginalized or black women and queer people always have to figure out
57:15
shit on our own we're not protected by anyone we're open to all kinds of danger I in my life have
57:22
felt so unprotected felt so open to all kinds of things because I was never looked out for because
57:28
I wasn't worthy of being looked out for because of who I was so we're not protecting each other we're
57:33
not looking out for each other and if I'm outside for example and I see a black person or a black
57:39
woman or any black specifically a black woman or a black them or a black queer person out and like
57:45
they need my help I'm gonna help or if they're in a situation where I feel like I can tell myself
57:49
out there that's what we should do for each other because white people really do that we really
57:54
do in very dangerous ways I mean even in in communities in Africa where like the Asian people are
58:01
always together they always know each other they are a community they really are a community and
58:07
I think that's one of the reasons why they're starting to rise up and starting to create profits
58:12
off of their community and even with Chinese food it's like the Chinese business you have
58:16
everyone working there it's Chinese like we don't look out for one another we have black men
58:21
bashing black women on the internet yeah it's so dumb of all the races it's only black men I
58:27
seen sit out there and bash their own I've never heard an out of man or a white man do like well
58:34
white women it's always women in general so it's never just your own so there is this like
58:41
I think we've fed into this western division because I think what they wanted to do was divided
58:46
even in this relationship they wanted to put different they wanted to confuse us dividers and
58:50
it's worked yeah regardless of what languages you speak we need to come together and have like a
58:57
soul plan you know that we're black and we should look out for one another yes yes yes absolutely
59:03
and I feel like this notion of division it also seems like what you said about internalizing
59:09
white supremacy and western ideals it feels like one huge barrier to like black love at a community
59:15
level it's like someone always has to be better and like we're relating to each other in hierarchies
59:20
at all times whether that's like power dominance or it's like as much as we do love to we love
59:25
love we love each other there are such huge possibilities for it but when there's an other we love
59:31
to laugh at the other like we love to make each other the butt of our jokes and I've just observed
59:35
this pervasive like there's no commitment to love because when you love someone you're committed to
59:42
understanding them and you approach them with curiosity and gentleness you don't lead with the
59:47
judgment that you have in them or the need to be right over them or the sort of this ego and this
59:53
whether that and the way that a lot of different black people are relating to each other I think
59:57
it's part of the issue is that it's not grounded in love it's grounded in the need to be superior
1:00:03
in a way and I think we definitely learned that from and that relates to all different axes of like
1:00:09
division that you mentioned where it's an us versus them it's also interesting because
1:00:14
in a different world where there was no white supremacy we wouldn't be a community you know what I
1:00:19
mean like it's almost like the project of white supremacy is is in part so successful because it's
1:00:24
created it's necessitated a form of solidarity that isn't actually natural like we were always
1:00:30
going to be within our communities and that's where we would find home like now there's this beautiful
1:00:36
global community of black people immigrating and moving around and all these things and so it's
1:00:40
forming these tensions but I really think like at the root of it can be or a solution is the same tools
1:00:47
that we are using in like more like conflict resolution places like in relationship and in community
1:00:52
where there's when there's love and intimacy it's like about understanding instead of attacking
1:00:59
and it's about grace and giving people space of course not if they're causing harm not if they're
1:01:03
abusive and I mean I do believe in transformative justice and start like that no one is beyond being
1:01:09
able to be repaired but that's a kind of a different conversation but it makes me it hot to use
1:01:14
your word it's heartbreaking it's heartbreaking to see us as you say like drag each other on the
1:01:18
internet and it's the way like we're always going to be wrong but it's the specific vitriolic way
1:01:24
that like the misogyny the rape culture the misogynoir the transphobia the homophobia the
1:01:30
anti-blackness just the also just humiliating each other and being okay with that I think has always
1:01:35
been something that just it's so bothersome but when it works like when you find those spaces as
1:01:41
you mentioned when you find those communities when you find like a black community of people like
1:01:49
there's nothing more powerful than that and nothing more loving and as you said you feel like you
1:01:53
can just exist and be and those spaces are very important even as they are imperfect and I think
1:01:58
we can build stronger bonds it's by loving each other so before we wrap this conversation I've
1:02:04
loved this time together I have five fill in the blank questions to close just say the first
1:02:09
thing that comes to mind I've loved chatting to you and getting some of your I'd love to have
1:02:13
you on again sometime but these are the five questions and you just say the first thing that comes
1:02:18
okay I want people to reimagine the world to me love means acceptance I feel safe when
1:02:32
I'm heard I wish I had known sooner that I'm important hmm that's a lovely theme of today I dream
1:02:42
of a world where we can unite oh yes okay amazing how can we support you so you'll take talk I'll
1:02:50
put it in the show notes the real ashram you just started a singing account which is so exciting
1:02:54
that you also sing it's called definitely not ashram and I'll put that in the show notes as well
1:03:00
and then your cash app I think it's cash app is British pound sign the real ashram please support
1:03:05
black creators so please get that cash app out everyone is there anywhere else where we can support
1:03:11
you your voice your work then my bio I have a link tree and that's where I could all be go for
1:03:17
me for people that are struggling and people that for different reasons so if you can please donate
1:03:23
I also have a playlist of videos where I have made video I crowdfunded for them so if you could
1:03:28
interact with those videos so they get help that would be very helpful okay awesome so you heard
1:03:34
that everyone interact with videos and I'll put the link in the show notes as well that's how we
1:03:40
can support and do you have any closing thoughts words or things that you want to share with the
1:03:45
audience before we close yes I could do this with anyone I'm so grateful to do this with you I love
1:03:52
how you think I always love your content you're one of my favorite content creators and it's
1:03:57
very important to have this conversation or these conversations with a like-minded person like
1:04:03
yourself I just want you to know that you're important and everything you're doing it so it has
1:04:07
really touched me and has really inspired me you're super inspirational and I hope this grows more
1:04:14
I hope you continue to have more conversations like this with people and I'm wishing you success and
1:04:18
love always oh thank you so much ashram I appreciate that so much and I'm sure we'll have you back
1:04:24
because I have a mutual isma too I feel like we could have a great conversation one day all together
1:04:29
but thank you for your kind words I'm going to internalize them did you know listeners that a
1:04:34
gratitude practice is actually about focusing on the way that people have expressed gratitude to
1:04:40
you it's not as much there's an amazing like episode about this it is about expressing what you're
1:04:44
grateful for but it's about not discounting when people share that they're grateful for you so I'm
1:04:48
going to meditate on the gratitude you've shared with me because I appreciate the love and the
1:04:52
energy and you taking the time to say that and I feel exactly the same so thank you for being with
1:04:58
us today may you have a beautiful beautiful day and evening in the UK and can't wait to see you on
1:05:03
my for your page very soon okay bye that's it sun shines thank you so much for listening to
1:05:14
reimagining with i understood a podcast where we reframe rethink and reimagine all things
1:05:20
standing in the way of love and liberation please follow my work on substack at i understood.substack.com
1:05:27
and subscribe if you have the means as well as on TikTok and Instagram at i understood I would absolutely
1:05:33
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1:05:38
okay follow our podcast community the IG handle is reimagining with i understood please leave a rating
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1:05:50
nourish yourself and nourish each other