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Monday Mini: What You're Worth · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stephanoe
0:08
Speaker 1: never told your production of I Heart Radio. So Samantha,
0:20
Speaker 1: what has been your general experience of negotiating contracts and
0:28
Speaker 1: asking for for what you think you're worth. I have
0:33
Speaker 1: a couple of kind of experiences because for the longest
0:35
Speaker 1: time I worked at government, and then I went to
0:37
Speaker 1: work as a nanny, and then I came back to government,
0:41
Speaker 1: and then I worked as a bartender and then now
0:44
Speaker 1: here here meaning I Heart. But when I started with
0:47
Speaker 1: the government, there was no negotiating Like in any government,
0:51
Speaker 1: they are the very like stipulation of getting the bottom
0:54
Speaker 1: pay whatever. It's like, you're worth this to this, or
0:57
Speaker 1: this job is worth this, to this you was gonna
0:59
Speaker 1: you were in the base pay no matter what. My
1:02
Speaker 1: first job and I talked about this. I think my
1:03
Speaker 1: first job, I was investigating child abuse and I was
1:07
Speaker 1: getting paid twenty seven thousand, and that's including benefits and
1:11
Speaker 1: all of that, of course, but that still comes out
1:13
Speaker 1: of your check. It's not like they just give you
1:15
Speaker 1: these benefits. And yes, I think if you're not in
1:18
Speaker 1: the US and you don't already know your insurance, your
1:22
Speaker 1: health insurance is based on your job and whether or
1:24
Speaker 1: not you have a job, which apparently, even though we're
1:27
Speaker 1: used to it as Americans because that's what we know,
1:28
Speaker 1: we're like, of course, that's not a thing outside of here.
1:32
Speaker 1: They're like, people are like what because you know, they
1:35
Speaker 1: value their health outside of whether or not they have
1:38
Speaker 1: a good enough job to get coverage or whatever. Because yeah,
1:42
Speaker 1: if you have minimum wage, you don't get coverage. If
1:45
Speaker 1: you work minimum wage jobs and that aren't over a
1:48
Speaker 1: certain amount of hours, you are not guaranteed coverage. And yes,
1:51
Speaker 1: there's many a businesses that make sure you work thirty
1:54
Speaker 1: eight hours or thirty nine hours instead of the forty
1:58
Speaker 1: hours of which makes you a full time so that
2:00
Speaker 1: you can't get these benefits. But yeah, so going into that,
2:03
Speaker 1: didn't think that was an option. Went into being a nanny,
2:08
Speaker 1: which paid a lot more, and I had gotten bonuses
2:11
Speaker 1: and I was promised yearly raises. I never got him.
2:15
Speaker 1: And then finally I had to have a talk, and
2:17
Speaker 1: I had to continue and persistently ask for a meeting
2:21
Speaker 1: to have my talk about a race, and I got
2:23
Speaker 1: I finally got one. It was minimal, but the fact
2:25
Speaker 1: that I did it, I was very proud of myself
2:26
Speaker 1: because I'm not good at confrontation. Despite the fact that
2:29
Speaker 1: I sound very strong and sound like I would be,
2:32
Speaker 1: I'm not. I'll wait till I had the very last minute.
2:34
Speaker 1: Then I'm like, okay, okay, okay, I can do this.
2:36
Speaker 1: I can do this, and I finally did it, go
2:39
Speaker 1: back going back to working for the government again. Of course,
2:43
Speaker 1: that's not a thing I tried to negotiate. They don't
2:45
Speaker 1: allow it. As in fact, it took me to get
2:48
Speaker 1: to nine years and two promotions to be even able
2:51
Speaker 1: to ask why why isn't this a thing, especially because
2:54
Speaker 1: the government stopped giving races cost of living races. So
2:58
Speaker 1: by the end I had gotten three promotions and I
3:00
Speaker 1: was getting paid thirty six thousand. See, yeah, that's not
3:04
Speaker 1: a lot for the amount of jobs I was doing, um,
3:07
Speaker 1: which ended up me going to work at a bar.
3:10
Speaker 1: Of course, to thirteen. The rest is tips, and don't
3:13
Speaker 1: get me wrong, I got good tips for a while,
3:15
Speaker 1: so it was great. But yes, the US is also
3:18
Speaker 1: based on the tips system, and we already know that's
3:21
Speaker 1: a whole other conversation that we could have and how
3:24
Speaker 1: it's those types of services are dominated by women typically,
3:28
Speaker 1: But okay, and then it came to my heart. I
3:32
Speaker 1: was very confused by I heard, because I will say
3:36
Speaker 1: I did learn from the previous host you are a
3:39
Speaker 1: great help um and trying to figure out what to
3:41
Speaker 1: navigate this. So my experience, very long windedly, has been unusual.
3:48
Speaker 1: It was more about me asking questions, what about you? Yeah. So,
3:56
Speaker 1: I feel like through my lifetime I have in various factors,
4:03
Speaker 1: in various ways, I've absorbed this messaging that I really
4:07
Speaker 1: have to fight to get paid. More like, if I
4:11
Speaker 1: don't fight, I'm not going to get paid. The They're
4:15
Speaker 1: going to pay me the minimum amount, which is true
4:17
Speaker 1: in one sense, but also frustrating in the other in
4:20
Speaker 1: terms of that's kind of another job You're placing on
4:25
Speaker 1: someone to explain why I'm worth paying me this much.
4:29
Speaker 1: I'm worth it right, which, as we know, with women
4:32
Speaker 1: and other marginalized folks, there are a lot of things
4:36
Speaker 1: that make that trickier to do. UM. But I always
4:42
Speaker 1: had it in the back of my head that I'm
4:44
Speaker 1: gonna have to negotiate for paid because they're going to
4:48
Speaker 1: be paying me less. Um. So I too. I've been
4:54
Speaker 1: with this company since twenty eleven, but it's been through
4:57
Speaker 1: like seven different owners. So with that in mind for
5:05
Speaker 1: a while, I was they were definitely doing something those
5:09
Speaker 1: I think was illegal um in my early days where
5:14
Speaker 1: they would hire me for a year, but then I
5:18
Speaker 1: had to take two months off and that was so
5:19
Speaker 1: they didn't benefits. Yeah, so that you would be called
5:24
Speaker 1: part time and in the weirdest way, like that's terrible.
5:28
Speaker 1: I don't approve of it, but it was kind of
5:31
Speaker 1: nice at those two I do not approve of it.
5:36
Speaker 1: That's very wrong, but it was kind of nice to
5:38
Speaker 1: be like, well, oh, I'm just gonna go on a
5:41
Speaker 1: road trip for two months. Although I mean that was very,
5:44
Speaker 1: very very trusting of me to assume the job would
5:46
Speaker 1: be there when I got back, and I was not
5:48
Speaker 1: sure that it would be, but it was. I have
5:52
Speaker 1: probably negotiated four times now with my contract, and it
5:58
Speaker 1: is it's such a arustrating thing because I feel, on
6:03
Speaker 1: the one hand, like I want to be if we've
6:07
Speaker 1: read so many articles right like women women go in
6:10
Speaker 1: there and and do this and do this, and so
6:12
Speaker 1: I feel like I have to do that. But at
6:14
Speaker 1: the same time, it makes me mad that I have
6:16
Speaker 1: to keep all that in mind, as like they basically
6:20
Speaker 1: are saying like men just get that, but women have
6:22
Speaker 1: to prove that. So that frustrates me and it gets
6:26
Speaker 1: I get in my head about it. And then it's
6:29
Speaker 1: unfortunately in a lot of in the US and a
6:32
Speaker 1: lot of fields in the US, there's not a transparency
6:35
Speaker 1: when it comes to to pay. And I feel like
6:40
Speaker 1: we've seen a lot of articles and research that are
6:43
Speaker 1: saying basically like women when they think they're asking for
6:49
Speaker 1: a lot, they're really kind of in the mid to
6:52
Speaker 1: lower tier of what people are getting paid, and it's
6:57
Speaker 1: hard to know the truth of that. UM. And I
7:00
Speaker 1: will say, and our friends in this office were very
7:02
Speaker 1: open in my experience, UM, we're pretty open about this
7:06
Speaker 1: is how much I make, uh, and this is how
7:09
Speaker 1: I kind of got to this point. But it's hard.
7:14
Speaker 1: There's a guilt factor, and you and I were talking
7:16
Speaker 1: about this, Um, there's a guilt factor of kind of
7:19
Speaker 1: like an impostor level syndrome thing, but also just feeling
7:24
Speaker 1: like it's hard to argue you're worth this amount of
7:29
Speaker 1: money when you're not sure where the baseline is, and
7:33
Speaker 1: also you are struggling with maybe some self esteem issues
7:37
Speaker 1: or they have this imposter syndrome where you're like, what
7:40
Speaker 1: if this is the thing that they say, no, you're
7:43
Speaker 1: not worth that amount of money. Now devastating that could
7:47
Speaker 1: be in many in many aspects. When we talked about
8:03
Speaker 1: our contract we were coming back, there was a specific
8:07
Speaker 1: situation in which, you know, we were told, hey, can
8:10
Speaker 1: you do this for us? And in our minds we're like, oh, yeah, sure, sure,
8:14
Speaker 1: sure sure Wait what wait? No, that this doesn't wait,
8:19
Speaker 1: this doesn't make sense because you're asking us to do something,
8:22
Speaker 1: gaslighting us to make us say that's for us. But
8:25
Speaker 1: then when we we sit here and think about it, like, wait,
8:28
Speaker 1: that's more work for us? What And having that moment
8:34
Speaker 1: of realizing we felt guilty and almost said yes to
8:40
Speaker 1: some situations, to many situations actually because we just you know,
8:43
Speaker 1: of course, yeah, absolutely absolutely will help, will help, not
8:46
Speaker 1: realizing that this is more work on us without paying
8:52
Speaker 1: us and making us think that if we don't do it,
8:56
Speaker 1: we're letting other people down. Yes. Yes, And I think
9:01
Speaker 1: that's a big key to this point when we are
9:05
Speaker 1: talking about women specifically or marginalized people specifically, that we
9:13
Speaker 1: I will speak for you, Samantha, but I really enjoy
9:15
Speaker 1: this job. I love it. There's ups and downs, for sure,
9:18
Speaker 1: but in general, like I really love it, and I
9:21
Speaker 1: feel there's so many instances of the capitalist system kind
9:28
Speaker 1: of weaponizing that of like, you like your job, right,
9:31
Speaker 1: you want to do a good job, right, you can
9:34
Speaker 1: be easily replaced, you know that, right, Um that puts
9:38
Speaker 1: you in this situation where you feel like you have
9:39
Speaker 1: to say yes to these things. Um that too in
9:42
Speaker 1: order to succeed. You basically are not going to get
9:47
Speaker 1: paid what you're worth and you just half that's just
9:51
Speaker 1: the way it is. You have to go on without
9:53
Speaker 1: proper compensation. And also with women, I feel like there's
9:57
Speaker 1: a level of weaponizing empathy because we do feel like
10:01
Speaker 1: we're letting other people down. It's not just the financial aspect,
10:05
Speaker 1: which is important. I'm not damn playing that at all,
10:07
Speaker 1: but like there is the there's another person on on
10:11
Speaker 1: the other side of this, and I don't want to
10:15
Speaker 1: let you down. At the same time, you're a huge company,
10:18
Speaker 1: like pay for this right, Well, I mean there's kind
10:21
Speaker 1: of a couple of things to that because the things
10:23
Speaker 1: that we are taught in this country. So again I'm
10:27
Speaker 1: going to keep this in the U S. Because I
10:29
Speaker 1: know other countries have a little better setup or a
10:32
Speaker 1: completely different setup either way, where ay, we're told, yes,
10:37
Speaker 1: you should find a job that you love, so it's
10:39
Speaker 1: not worked to you. You're getting paid for something you love, right,
10:42
Speaker 1: so that means I can pay you less hopefully because
10:46
Speaker 1: you love this, this is what you're passionate about. And
10:48
Speaker 1: it's kind of this weird narrative that we've been fed
10:50
Speaker 1: so long that we've accepted this, like I love my job, Yes,
10:54
Speaker 1: I would do this without pay almost like that kind
10:56
Speaker 1: of level, like wait, why should we have to even
10:59
Speaker 1: have that conversation. Can't we be paid for doing something
11:02
Speaker 1: that I do love but making you money? Right? Okay?
11:06
Speaker 1: And then this other that of if you don't do
11:09
Speaker 1: your part, and I think this goes again more for women.
11:13
Speaker 1: If you don't do your part, you're going to push
11:15
Speaker 1: that onto someone else, so this is your fault. So
11:18
Speaker 1: I'm thinking specifically with my government job, and even with
11:20
Speaker 1: this job, I know you and I have talked about this,
11:22
Speaker 1: we don't really take vacations because if we're needed will answer.
11:26
Speaker 1: But in my government job, I absolutely never took a
11:30
Speaker 1: vacation longer than four days, and within those four days
11:32
Speaker 1: would be weekends, because no one could do what I
11:36
Speaker 1: do without taking on a whole new caseload and they
11:39
Speaker 1: specifically do that to you so that you don't leave.
11:43
Speaker 1: So to be fair, I did eventually get paid out
11:45
Speaker 1: for my vacation time, not when I was in defects
11:48
Speaker 1: and I worked overtime and they did they contested my
11:50
Speaker 1: overtime and did not pay me out because that's what
11:52
Speaker 1: they do. That is that like implication in that conversation
11:56
Speaker 1: that if you don't do this, it's not the government
11:59
Speaker 1: who suffered, it's your co workers. So are you going
12:02
Speaker 1: to do that to someone else? To you? And I
12:03
Speaker 1: think it would be kind of similar for us because
12:06
Speaker 1: we are our individual host but our our producer. Wonderful question.
12:10
Speaker 1: That would be scrambling if we're like BAH and didn't
12:13
Speaker 1: have a plan for this, And of course there's one
12:15
Speaker 1: thing to be responsible, but like if we probably had
12:18
Speaker 1: to leave for an emergency, I will be giving you
12:21
Speaker 1: all this work that you would have to do to
12:23
Speaker 1: scramble around without me, and I would have an immense
12:26
Speaker 1: amount of guilt. But the corporation has given notions, right,
12:31
Speaker 1: they just want their money exactly exactly, And I know
12:35
Speaker 1: it's a it's a big point of conversation, as it
12:38
Speaker 1: should be right now and always. But like companies kind
12:41
Speaker 1: of using that whole idea of you know, we're family
12:44
Speaker 1: and we're family right right, and and I like, I
12:48
Speaker 1: love my coworkers, but there you do have to draw
12:51
Speaker 1: the line because many of my co workers are co workers,
12:53
Speaker 1: are friends, like, but there's a line between work that
12:59
Speaker 1: a company is making money off of and kind of
13:02
Speaker 1: using that line to guilt you into working for free,
13:06
Speaker 1: essentially feeling miserable or taking on this extra load or
13:09
Speaker 1: this extra guilt, which I do think a lot of
13:16
Speaker 1: women do. And when I think about like, I'm just
13:18
Speaker 1: thinking about my friends and hearing my women friends and
13:22
Speaker 1: hearing their experiences with their jobs and how they're just
13:24
Speaker 1: like stressed to make sure somebody's vacation is perfect, which
13:26
Speaker 1: is really sweet, but it's also you're taking on this
13:31
Speaker 1: extra staff, you're not getting paid for it. And I
13:34
Speaker 1: think the conversation too is once again, who is benefiting
13:38
Speaker 1: in all of this and who is being hurt um
13:41
Speaker 1: And when it comes down to it, those who are
13:44
Speaker 1: ahead and have found a way to give all of
13:50
Speaker 1: those responsibilities to those who don't have as large voices
13:55
Speaker 1: don't really care, They don't really see and no matter what,
14:00
Speaker 1: no matter what we may hear when it comes to
14:03
Speaker 1: larger corporations, when it comes to being valued, there is
14:07
Speaker 1: an agenda. There's an agenda, and we have to be
14:10
Speaker 1: careful of that. But again, coming to for me specifically,
14:15
Speaker 1: I came from a government job that paid one third
14:17
Speaker 1: of what I'm getting paid now, and I am grateful.
14:20
Speaker 1: But because of that mentality, I'm being told I should
14:24
Speaker 1: be grateful and not actually get paid instead of not realizing, Hey,
14:28
Speaker 1: I wasn't being patient from my previous job. And it
14:30
Speaker 1: absolutely is wrong. And that is a corrupt system because
14:33
Speaker 1: that's based on government. Because I was a government worker,
14:35
Speaker 1: and I spell the same way about teachers anyway. But
14:40
Speaker 1: coming into this, uh, non government work, into a corporate
14:44
Speaker 1: world which makes billions of dollars, likes to talk about
14:48
Speaker 1: how much money they make, and I guess that's supposed
14:50
Speaker 1: to be a comforting note. But then you start looking
14:52
Speaker 1: at your own job, listenings what you take on, and
14:56
Speaker 1: then see the pay, you start having questions. And I
15:00
Speaker 1: came in with a see, isn't this a better pay
15:03
Speaker 1: than what you were getting? You should be great. I mean,
15:06
Speaker 1: at one point in time, I kind of was told
15:08
Speaker 1: that see one, You're you're having so much better mental health,
15:12
Speaker 1: and like, you know what, actually that's not true, because
15:14
Speaker 1: my mental health is my mental health, and this causes
15:17
Speaker 1: me just as much anxiety in a new way because
15:26
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, sure it's different, but it's still there. No,
15:29
Speaker 1: I totally hear you. Yeah, And I know like before
15:33
Speaker 1: when you and I were first talking about like you
15:36
Speaker 1: coming on, we had a cheese night and as we
15:42
Speaker 1: love to do, and I said, like, I felt so
15:45
Speaker 1: much guilt that I got paid more than my dad did.
15:49
Speaker 1: Um and he'd gone to thirteen years of college to
15:53
Speaker 1: be a lawyer, and then I professor. And I think
15:58
Speaker 1: like there's a differ print conversation between we are not
16:02
Speaker 1: paying people what they're worth, and especially like jobs dominated
16:07
Speaker 1: by women, like teachers, they should they should get paid
16:11
Speaker 1: so much, and the kind of comparison trap that you
16:16
Speaker 1: get into where you think I'm not worth that because
16:21
Speaker 1: this person should be worth more, Like we aren't in
16:23
Speaker 1: control of those systems. If I had my way, then yeah,
16:26
Speaker 1: teachers are getting way more than me. Right, And again,
16:43
Speaker 1: this is kind of the same as a conversation that
16:45
Speaker 1: we have when we talk about marginalized communities going after
16:48
Speaker 1: each other instead of seeing the higher problem, the bigger problem.
16:51
Speaker 1: They do the same things. Like so many people's arguments
16:53
Speaker 1: about forgiving student loans, so so many people's arguments about
16:57
Speaker 1: minimum wage being raised is that they did not earn it,
17:00
Speaker 1: So why should I care? And why should they get it?
17:03
Speaker 1: If I didn't get it? Like there's this level of
17:05
Speaker 1: like saying this is unfair for me, I didn't get it,
17:08
Speaker 1: so but because the system has rigged it that that's
17:11
Speaker 1: what you see, and that's what they want you to
17:13
Speaker 1: blame instead of talking about the system in itself. And
17:17
Speaker 1: I know I'm about to go onto a rant about
17:19
Speaker 1: Catechism and all of these like narratives that are so
17:22
Speaker 1: wrong in which they want to continue to make sure
17:26
Speaker 1: that there is a large gap between wealth and blue collar.
17:30
Speaker 1: Like there's just this giant narrative that people still keep
17:34
Speaker 1: feeding into because it becomes I didn't get that, why
17:37
Speaker 1: should they? Right? Which if you're that person, you need
17:43
Speaker 1: to look at yourself, be truly truly see how would
17:48
Speaker 1: have been beneficial and maybe it would be better for
17:51
Speaker 1: your kids along then even though you may not have
17:54
Speaker 1: gotten it, your kids, wouldn't it be so much better.
17:57
Speaker 1: I hope you love your kids enough if making you
18:00
Speaker 1: or your knees or you know, the younger communities, but
18:03
Speaker 1: you want them to have the better end. You want
18:06
Speaker 1: them to have the things that you wish you had.
18:07
Speaker 1: Like those are the conversations that I really think it's
18:11
Speaker 1: the that's being left behind because empathy is a rare
18:16
Speaker 1: even though everybody wants to say their impacts and I'm
18:18
Speaker 1: not even go there be the system has worked so
18:21
Speaker 1: well in brainwashing, oh my god, I swear to God,
18:25
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about conspiracies, but in brainwashing so many
18:28
Speaker 1: of us into finding somewhere someone else to blame outside
18:32
Speaker 1: of seeing the bigger picture. I agree, And I think
18:35
Speaker 1: on top of that, it's it's really everybody, but especially
18:39
Speaker 1: when it comes to marginalized folks and women. It's been
18:42
Speaker 1: so the system has been so effective at turning us
18:48
Speaker 1: all into victim blamers and all of us saying I'm
18:52
Speaker 1: not worth that or because right now the space is
18:58
Speaker 1: so small that we allow all like we were always
19:01
Speaker 1: shrinking and always trying to take up as a little
19:03
Speaker 1: space as possible, that in the back of your head,
19:06
Speaker 1: you're just yeah, that kind of a grateful mentality, like
19:09
Speaker 1: they could replace me in a heartbeat and it would
19:11
Speaker 1: be easy. And it's very, very damaging. And I think
19:17
Speaker 1: in these those articles that are like women, here's how
19:22
Speaker 1: you negotiate, Like, I get it that they annoy me
19:25
Speaker 1: so much. Right, well, and let's be honest. First of all,
19:30
Speaker 1: they are not very helpful because they're not they're too generic.
19:33
Speaker 1: They're just starting point. I'm sure some of them are
19:36
Speaker 1: company they act differently. There's some amazing companies that you
19:40
Speaker 1: should look towards and it would hopefully set up some standards.
19:44
Speaker 1: But for me, like coming into a whole different world,
19:47
Speaker 1: I had to ask a lot of questions. And I'm
19:49
Speaker 1: a nosy person, so I was willing. I started asking
19:52
Speaker 1: everyone to the point they're like, what what's happening? Are
19:55
Speaker 1: you trying to trap me? Like no, I just I
19:58
Speaker 1: don't know this business and I want to understand what
20:01
Speaker 1: this is. Yeah, and that's a really good point. I
20:03
Speaker 1: think that's a good point to end on. As frustrating
20:06
Speaker 1: as it is, as much as it shouldn't be this way,
20:09
Speaker 1: I do find I take heart. And when I took
20:13
Speaker 1: this job, the past host Kristin Caroline gave me so
20:18
Speaker 1: much like when you negotiate, asked for this, make sure
20:21
Speaker 1: they do that. Like they were very open, and if
20:24
Speaker 1: they hadn't been, I would have probably not even known
20:28
Speaker 1: to ask. And I love that I'm seeing that happen
20:31
Speaker 1: where the women and our friend group and our support
20:35
Speaker 1: group and our colleagues are being very like, look, I
20:38
Speaker 1: had to fight for this, but I think it's important
20:40
Speaker 1: you should definitely ask for this kind of finding that camaraderie. Right, Yeah,
20:45
Speaker 1: I agree with you. Don't be afraid to ask, don't
20:49
Speaker 1: be afraid to talk. If someone tells you something is
20:51
Speaker 1: illegal and sound sketchy, go looking up for yourself because
20:54
Speaker 1: it probably is. Yes, Yes, I remember, like somebody told
20:59
Speaker 1: me once it was illegal to say how much you
21:03
Speaker 1: made and I was asking around about it and they're like, no,
21:06
Speaker 1: it's not That would be terrible and like a mafia
21:10
Speaker 1: world we're living in. So yeah, definitely ask, definitely asks,
21:16
Speaker 1: and hopefully I think we can return to this. Maybe
21:21
Speaker 1: I would love to look into now in our time
21:24
Speaker 1: of like pandemic and COVID in the Great Resignation, how
21:28
Speaker 1: negotiating has changed and how people have kind of their
21:32
Speaker 1: mindset has changed around it. So sure we'll come back
21:36
Speaker 1: to that, but in the meantime, listeners, if you would
21:40
Speaker 1: like to email us, you can. Our email is Stuff
21:43
Speaker 1: Media mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can
21:45
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on
21:47
Speaker 1: Instagram and Stuff We'll Never Told You. Thanks as always
21:50
Speaker 1: to our super producer Christina, She's a badass, and thanks
21:54
Speaker 1: to you for listening. Stuff Will Never Told You this
21:56
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast on my
21:58
Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or
22:00
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H