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Killer Thriller: Nicole Brown Simpson Hid This Even From Her Sisters · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. Hey, everybody.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. Today, we
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: are talking about one of the most famous murder cases
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: in American history, and from a perspective we almost never get.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Our guest is Denise Brown, the older sister of Nicole
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Brown Simpson. More than 32 years after Nicole was murdered,
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Denise has written a deeply personal new book, which comes
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: out tomorrow. It's called For My Sister Nicole, Love Shouldn't Hurt,
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: What to Know About Domestic Violence. And what struck me
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: about this book is that it isn't about OJ Simpson.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: It's about Nicole, the woman behind the name and the
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: headlines and what her own family didn't understand about what
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: was happening to her until it was too late. Denise
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: writes about the abuse she witnessed, the abuse Nicole kept secret,
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  Speaker 2: the journals the family discovered after her death, the murder
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: trial that consumed the country, and the things Denise now
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: wishes she had understood when her sister was still alive.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: And after spending more than three decades working with survivors
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: of domestic violence, she also wants us to understand the
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: warning signs that her family missed. Denise, welcome to Killer Thriller.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for talking with me today.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: It's great to be here. I appreciate it. Thank you.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: I just want to start by saying I am so
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: profoundly sorry for what you and your family have been through.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: There really aren't any words to describe it, but I
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: needed to just say that to you.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: And I was truly blown away by this book for
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: a multitude of reasons that we will get into. But
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: before we get into all of that, who was Nicole
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: to you as a sister?
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: My best friend, you know, we were less than two
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: years apart in age. So it was, I don't know,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: there was a closeness that you couldn't really explain, you know,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: and our first language, but the two of us, we
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: were born in Germany. So our first language was German. So,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, that was our little language that
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: we had. And I think that made us even closer
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: because we didn't speak a word of English when we
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: got to the States. So when we finally came over here,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: I was six and Nicole was almost five. And, you know,
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: there's like a two month period where we're like a year,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: you know, like a couple of months, a year apart.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: But yeah. So anyway, so when we came over here,
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: we didn't speak a word of English. My mother put
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: us in a school and she said after three weeks,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: the two of you were just speaking English. You're just
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: gabbing away in English. And, you know, but that's really true.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, young kids are like sponges. They take everything in. So,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: and that's exactly what Nicole and I did. But yet
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: we kept that closeness because every time we had something
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: to say, you know, or we didn't like something, we
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: would be talking in German. Right, right. What a great little, yeah, yeah. Yeah,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: so anyway, so we just had a wonderful, wonderful time.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: A great upbringing. You know, the two of us, I mean,
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: I can explain it probably better like this. A girlfriend
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: of ours, she said, oh, my gosh, if one of
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: them was angry with you, the other one was angry
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: with you. You know, so it was like, okay, well,
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: this is just the way we were. Right. Two little
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: Indians that were just like this, just always together. Did
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: everything together. Yes.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: What do you think is the biggest thing that people
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: misunderstand about Nicole?
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: Well, I think they painted an ugly picture of Nicole
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: after she was murdered. And I don't believe that they
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: truly know Nicole. And I think that they, you know,
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: with all the tabloids and with all the stuff that
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: was out there, I truly believe that they have a
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: completely wrong idea of who Nicole really was. I mean,
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: she was a woman who was, one, she was very spiritual. Two,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, that was my mother's side because my mother
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: was a very spiritual woman. We were both raised Catholic,
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: but it wasn't like the sit, stand, kneel. It wasn't
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: like we had to go to church every day to believe,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: you know. So it was just about doing good and
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: being good. And that's how my mom raised us, my
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: mom and dad. You know, you do right. You know,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: she always believed in the Ten Commandments. Mm-hmm. You know,
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: you do unto others as you would like to have
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: done unto you. And I mean, that's just common sense.
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  Speaker 1: That's just common courtesy to people. You know, your neighbors,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: people you live around. You do good. You are kind.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: You know, and that's who Nicole was. I mean, she
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: was just a really kind person. But what I love
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: is that other people are saying this about her now
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: because everybody expects a family member to say this, right?
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: And every family member does. Was Nicole hardheaded and stubborn? Absolutely.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: But was she the feisty, strong-willed, funny, happy-go-lucky girl? Yeah,
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: she was all of the above. You know, I mean,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: kids are kids. And, you know, we have our own personalities,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: which we did. And both very strong personalities. But she
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: was just such a loving person. Just such a loving person.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: And when other people say it, I am so happy.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: I really am. I mean, it really makes my heart
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  Speaker 1: feel like, wow, somebody else besides me is saying this
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: about her, and it really makes me feel good. Right.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: You say in this book that this is not about him,
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: and this book is for my sister. And you make
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: a very conscious and in my opinion, extraordinarily effective choice
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: to not use his name when you reference him throughout
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: the book. I'm of course speaking about OJ. So did you, like,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: what was the intention behind that?
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: Really no intention because he's never been a part of
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: my speeches over the last 30 years. I mean, he has,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: actually this is so about Nicole and other victims of
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: domestic violence that he actually did not even exist in
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: my brain for 30 years, for the last 30 years.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was something that was horrific, something that
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: was horrible, something that he did. And I will take
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: that to my grave with me because that's what I
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: truly believe. But I just, he's just doesn't, I won't
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: let him take up space in my brain. Yeah. I'm
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: very good at that. I can just like, kind of just,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: you're just gone.
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  Speaker 2: Which is probably, you know, one of the most Something
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: that would infuriate him the most, being a narcissist. He
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: would want to take up that space. And I just
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: felt it was so effective in the sense that it
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: allows the readers to just... imagine he's an average person.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: So rather than having this bias of the distraction of
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: him being so famous and things, and it's very effective
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: in that regard of how it really further reveals how
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: this can happen to anyone and that it isn't about him.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you saw that. I'm glad you realized
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: that because this is truly about People trying to save lives,
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: trying to help individuals and trying to explain that, hey,
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: I made mistakes. I made huge mistakes until I knew
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: what domestic violence was all about. I said and did
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: all the wrong things, too. So, you know, I just
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: want people to learn. And I'm not one to learn
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: like in a classroom. I mean, yes, of course, I
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: went to school, the whole thing. But I'm more about
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: learning with the storytelling. I couldn't, that resonates with me.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: So I'm hoping that this book or my sister, Nicole
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: love shouldn't hurt will resonate through the storytelling. Yep.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: I think that is a very, I, I obviously this,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: this podcast is really, we, we cover how things are
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: told through story and it's very, it allows us to,
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: to in a different way to actually download these things and, and,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: understand the real depth of them in a different way.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: And I think that you're exactly right. And the book
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: really does this powerful job of utilizing your hindsight and
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: then inserting that into the recounting of your experience with
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: the mounting abuse. And it felt to me like this
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: a step-by-step roadmap of a narcissist and a pathological abuser.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: And it serves as like, almost as a warning to people.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Was that what she wanted to do?
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: Actually, it was a couple, it was a process because
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: at first it was going to be just a memoir.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: And then I thought, oh God, who cares about what
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Denise does? I really didn't. Then it kind of morphed
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: into what it is today. And I was really grateful
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: that Blackstone Publishing wanted to do a domestic violence book
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: because that's where my passion lies. That's what I do. do.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: And so for this to become the book that it was,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: took about three years. And, you know, so it's not
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: something that just goes, okay, boom, here you have a book.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: But it was a process. And it was not an
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: easy process for me. Because telling these stories and remembering
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: these things that happened that were so horrific 30 years ago,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: 32 years ago, I mean, that was tough. It was
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: really tough. But my whole purpose in life is that
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: if I can save one life, I feel like I
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: fulfilled that purpose. And that's what I wanted to do
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: with this book. So, yes, I am really happy that
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: it turned into a book of storytelling, of resources. of,
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: you know, letting people know of what not to say,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: what to say, you know, the warning signs and, you know,
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: all of the above. And just giving them resources to
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: understand that, hey, you know, you're not alone, first of all.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: If you are a victim of domestic violence, you're definitely
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: not alone. There is help out there for you. And
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  Speaker 1: I even try to go through the explanation of telling
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: people When I was in like Boston College and a
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: young man, he asked me, he said, Denise, he goes,
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  Speaker 1: what do you tell someone? Because I know my sister's
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: a victim of domestic violence. What can I do? And
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: I told him, I said, you know, I said, you
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: need to know, learn everything you can about domestic violence.
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  Speaker 1: Learn about the cycle of domestic violence, the power and
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  Speaker 1: control wheel. And that starts with the verbal, the emotional,
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  Speaker 1: the psychological abuse, the chipping away at somebody's self-esteem. You're stupid.
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  Speaker 1: You're ugly. You're worthless. You're no good. Nobody's going to
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  Speaker 1: want you. That escalates into the physical violence. That's the hitting,
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  Speaker 1: the kicking, the punching, throwing up against walls that everybody
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: talks about, that we know about, right? The physical. And
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: then there's the honeymoon phase of the, oh, baby, I'm
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: so sorry. The gifts, the flowers, the excuses, the I'm sorry's. Well,
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  Speaker 1: it's that cycle of violence that is about power and
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: control of one human being over another. And that's what
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: I told them. I said, learn about it. And then
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: when you set that person down and you say, listen,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: this is what I've learned. This is what I know.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: And you're going to get a lot of no, no, no,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: that's not happening to me because there's so much denial
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: in domestic violence with victims. That, you know, you'll just,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: what you've done is you've opened up that door to conversation.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: You've opened up that door to, okay, if they are
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: ready and when they are ready to leave, they will
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: hopefully call you. Right.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: I just, I'm going to say one thing because I
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: have to, I don't want me to get distracted by this,
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: but we do have a friend in our lives where
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: my husband tried to help her desperately and She is
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: in an abusive and continues to be marriage. And she
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: came to us for help. And he did everything. He
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: took the police reports. He took all of her text messages.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: He did all the things, set her up with an attorney,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: set her up with the things. And she just backtracked
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: and stayed with him. So it is hard.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: It is. It's very difficult. And a victim of domestic
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: violence will go back seven to 10 times. So I
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: always encourage people, be supportive, be there for that person,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: because that maybe fifth time, 10th time, they will leave
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: that situation, hopefully, and not end up like Nicole.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: And that's what I tell people, too. I said, you know,
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: when you learn about domestic violence and you understand that
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: Murder is the ultimate form of domestic violence. I just
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: always say you don't want to end up like Nicole.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: And even when I'm trying to explain the cycle of violence,
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: I just I still let people know you don't want
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: to be Nicole. You don't want to be a Nicole.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: So you've said that when you first met OJ as
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: Nicole's boyfriend in 1977, you heard her crying after he
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: became angry because she had kissed a male friend platonically
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: on the cheek. And you offered to take her home,
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: but she said everything was fine. Looking back, do you
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: feel that was the first warning sign that you missed?
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Well, that was the first time I had ever seen anything, yes.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: And had I known, and had I been educated about
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: domestic violence, because remember, I mean, this was, I come
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: from a very loving home. We didn't have domestic violence
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: in our home. And oftentimes people talk about, oh, it's
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: a learned behavior. You learn it in the home. Well,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: we didn't learn that in the home. That was not
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: in our home at all. And I never heard my
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: parents yelling or screaming at each other. So for me,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: You know, when people say this is a learned behavior, well,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: it wasn't learned in our house. But I do know
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: that he had it in his home. And, you know,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: so it's got to be. And then you have to
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: remember also that Nicole was only 18 years old.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: It's so important to remember that.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she was 18 years old. She wasn't a 37-year-old
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: woman with two kids, you know, or a 35-year-old woman
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: with two kids. She was an 18-year-old child. And she,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: when she first met him, she was head over heels
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: in love. It was like, I remember her telling me
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: a story and I thought, Oh God, that's so weird.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: That doesn't even sound like you, Nicole. But what it
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: was is she says, you know, I got an apartment
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: or he got her an apartment because Nicole, when she
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: was 18 years old, she told my mother, she says,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm going to move out when I'm 18.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: And my mom says, okay. So, At 18 years old,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: her birthday came and went. She didn't move out. She
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: was still there. All of a sudden, my mom says,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: three days after her 18th birthday, all of a sudden,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: Nicole comes out with a suitcase. And my mom goes, well,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: where are you going? She goes, well, mom, I told
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: you I was moving out when I was 18, right?
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: So anyhow, she wanted to be a photographer. She was
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: great at photography. And so she ended up moving in
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: with a friend of ours, David Labon. David Labon was
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: actually the guy, still a very good friend, who took
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: the cover of the book. I mean, he was doing
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: shoots with Nicole, with me, with my sister, with my grandfather,
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: with our animals, with everybody. I mean, he was just
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: a wonderful guy. So anyway, Nicole wanted to follow in
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: his footsteps. And he went to Brook Institute for photography
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: up in Santa Barbara. And so when Nicole decided she
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: was moving out, he was like a brother to her, right?
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: Taking her under his wing and just a really great guy.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: And Nicole moved in with him and he was sleeping
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: on the couch. She got the bedroom. Well, a week
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: after that, she met him at the Daisy when she
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: was hosting. She was the hostess at the Daisy. So
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: it wasn't long after that. He said, my girl is
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: not going to be living with a guy. So he
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: put her up in an apartment. Well, this was a long.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: Story, but having said that, she said, Oh, Denise, she goes, yeah,
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: sometimes I'd be sitting home at night and I know
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: he'd be calling because remember back in the.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Day when we had, um, the recorder answering machine, exactly.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: So you could hear who was talking to you. And
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: she said, I purposely did not pick up the phone
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: because I did not think that I didn't want him
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: to think that I was sitting at home waiting for him.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: And I said, I said, you did what? I said,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: what kind of game is that? And she says, well,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: she goes, I just didn't want him to think. She goes,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I really kind of like him, you know? So anyhow,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: fast forward, to the story that you just told, having
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: her crying in the bathroom, she called me up. I
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: was living in New York. And she called me up
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: and she said, Denise, she goes, I'd really love for
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: you to meet my boyfriend. Well, I hadn't heard about
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: this boyfriend yet. And this was eight months into their relationship.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: I know. So my parents had met him. Even the
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: girl that wrote the foreword in my book, Eve Shakti Chen,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: she even met him before I did. And she said,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: she goes, oh my God, he thought he hit the jackpot,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: you know, living behind a gated community, having this loving family.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: And so he was totally enamored with, you know, Nicole
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: and with the family and with everybody. So she wanted
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: me to meet him. Finally, after eight months, anyhow, my
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: little sister, Dominique and I, we go up to New York,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: up to Buffalo. And So he's charming. He's very nice.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: You know, he said, well, before we even go up, there,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: she says, he's a football player. And I had to laugh.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: I go, what do we know about football? Nothing. We
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: were four girls, right? So anyhow, so we go up there.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: Charming as all can be. We go to Niagara Falls.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: He plays photographer. He has his arm wrapped up. And
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking, why? And she goes, oh, he doesn't want
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: to sign autographs. And I said, oh, well, I didn't
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: know how big he was at the time. He was
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: just a guy. He was my sister's boyfriend. He had
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: a visor on. He had dark glasses on. And then
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, this rap came off of his arm.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: And I thought, okay. Then all of a sudden, the
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: voice started getting louder. And I thought, okay, that's unusual.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: And all of a sudden people realized who it was.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: And I said, I said, Oh my God. And that
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: was the first time I honestly saw, you know, he
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: didn't get enough attention and he, yeah. And he needed
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: the attention. And I thought, wow, that's really strange. I said, Nick,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: I said, what is that all about? She goes, well,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: they're his fans. That's what he does. That's his living.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: And I said, Oh, okay. So we just continued looking and,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: you know, the three sisters together and, just talking and
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: looking at the scenery, which was absolutely stunning and magnificent,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Niagara Falls. And then the next day we went to
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: a football game. And this was the day that Nicole
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: ended up coming home after kissing their friend, their friend,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: mind you. Hello on the cheek, because we're European. That's
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: what we do. And since it was their friend, she
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: didn't see anything wrong with it. I didn't see anything
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: wrong with it. But at that very moment, he was
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: telling a teammate, hey, that's my girl. At the very
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: moment that she was kissing him, hello. And so anyway,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: so hence, moving forward, we're at home. I'm in the bedroom.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Nicole's in the bathroom. All of a sudden, I hear
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: her crying. And I run into the bathroom. I go, Nick,
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: I said, what is going on? And she says to me,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: she goes, I hate him.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: I hate him.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: I hate him. She takes the figurine. She throws it
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: into the bathtub. I hate him. And then she pulls
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: herself together and she goes downstairs. And all of a
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: sudden it's quiet. She comes back up and she goes, oh,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: are you going to wear that dress out tonight? And
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: I go, whoa. I said, what happened? And she goes, oh,
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: I embarrassed him. And I said, you embarrassed him. I said,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: how did you embarrass him? And she says, well, you know,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: and then I, you know, that whole story again of
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: that's my girl. And so she took the blame on this. Well,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: I kind of dismissed it because what did I know? Right. Nothing. Right.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: And she recovered so quickly and it just seems like.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: A natural thing. Right.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: So then a couple of years later, you found a
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Polaroid of Nicole with a battered face and one eye
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: nearly swollen shut. And she told you that it was
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: movie makeup. Did you believe her in that moment?
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Why shouldn't I? You know, I was looking.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: We were getting ready. And I was looking through her drawers.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: I said, wear some lip gloss or God knows what.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: And I see this Polaroid and it's just laying on top.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: And I see the Polaroid, I pull it out and
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I said, oh my God, Nick, I said, what happened?
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: And she says, isn't that great? She goes, the makeup
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: artist at whatever movie he was doing, I don't recall
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: at the moment, but she painted a black eye on me.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: I said, oh my God, I said, this looks so real.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: And I threw it back in the drawer, thinking nothing
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: of it.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: Oh my God.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: So what I just want people to know and victims
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: of domestic violence to know that they're not alone, that
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: they don't need to be ashamed, that this is happening
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: to other people and that there is help for them. Right, right.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: And that, you know, there are a lot of people
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: out there that are concerned that want to help and
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: they don't have to feel ashamed. Right.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: It's so important to say that. The shame, I think,
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: is a very big factor that we don't talk about
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: that much. And then, of course, like the more it escalates,
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: then it feels as though, well, now it's insurmountable. Now
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: I can't tell people because it's become so extreme. So
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: you're in this dance of constantly trying to hide things
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: from people and then still act like everything's fine and
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: protect yourself.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. It's an ugly, ugly, ugly, horrific thing
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: that happens to victims of domestic violence. And I just
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: sit there and I just think about it. And it's
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: really interesting because I can talk to people And I
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: can listen to people and like maybe judges or prosecutors
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: or people like that. And they go, oh, I know
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: everything there is to learn about domestic violence. I don't
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: need to learn anything. Wrong. OK, because you know what
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: I did just this year? I went to a class
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: on domestic violence from a nurse at the local shelter here.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: It's called the Shelter for Abused Women and Children that
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: I'm also on the board of trustees on. They, they're
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: a wonderful organization here. And I went to this class
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: and she looked at everybody in the class and she says,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: can you tell me what is not on the power
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: and control wheel? I looked and I said, what's not
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: on there? Nobody had an answer. Not one of the
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: 30 people that were in this classroom. And then she said,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: cheating and strangulation. is not on the power and control wheel.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: And I thought, oh my God, that is so interesting
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: because those are two things that I added to my
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: book before I even realized that they were not even
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: on the power and control wheel.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. So cheating is a very, I mean, that
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: is one of the things that a lot of victims
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: that I have talked to, gosh, maybe 99.9% of them
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: have been cheated on.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: Because it puts them in that position of feeling inferior
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: and then wanting to always be checking on them. So
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: it's sort of the reverse. It is such a power play,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: such a manipulative piece of it.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. And then the things that I've learned from victims
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: that are the same, it's the hope, the shame, and
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: the fear. Yes, absolutely. Hope that things are going to
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: get better like they used to be when they were great. Well,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: at the beginning of their relationship, when everything was charming, wonderful. And,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: you know, the shame, like you were saying earlier, the
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: shame of not wanting anybody to know, not your best friend,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: not a family member. And then the fear, the fear
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: of the unknown. Where am I going to go? Especially
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: if they have children. Right. You know, so that fear
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: is real. And they are the only ones that know
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: how dangerous their abuser really is. You know, we can
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: be there, we can be supportive, we can do all
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: those things, but it is truly up to them to
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: find that safe time and space to leave. So I
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: always say, call your local shelter, put a safety plan
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: together because you need that because victims are in more
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: danger when they leave a situation. Right.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: So you say that abusers don't show up on the
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: first date and punch you. They can be charming, bring
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: flowers to the parents and promise to take care of
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: their daughter. So was OJ as good at winning over
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: your family as he was at winning over the public?
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: My family loved him. I mean, 17 years in someone's family,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: they are family. And you never, ever believe that somebody
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: could take the life of a family member. I just,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: it's just something so unthinkable that you just never believe
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: that somebody could do something so horrific. And, you know,
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, you didn't, what I had seen, what I
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: want people to remember though, when I saw these things,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: they weren't every day. I didn't live with Nicole. I
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: didn't know what was happening behind closed doors until after
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Nicole was murdered, until we started reading her notes and diaries.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: That's when I realized all the things that Nicole had
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: fallen victim to. And up until then, I thought they
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: were isolated incidences. And that's the mistake I don't want
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: people to make. I don't want them to make the
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: same mistake that I did. Why don't you just leave?
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Get out of this situation. Divorce the SOB. Why are
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: you doing this? You know, all those things. or exactly
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: what he was doing, controlling her, telling her what to do,
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: you know? So I just, that's why the support, to
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: be supportive and learn about domestic violence. You know, the
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: right things to say. Yes. Anybody needs to understand that. Yes.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: You know, you have the right to be safe, to
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: be loved, to be respected. Like the book title, Love
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Shouldn't Hurt.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: There is so much more to my conversation with Denise
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Brown today. Please join us next time when we're back
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: with more of Denise's deeply personal story of her sister, Nicole,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: what she learned after her death, and the work that
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: has become her life's mission.