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SoWhoCaresAnyway E43 Subliminal Joy · SoWhoCaresAnyway

0:04
Welcome to So Who Cares.
0:06
Anyway, a fortnightly podcast exploring stories that shape care community and the systems we live in.
0:13
I'm Ruth Germaine, and in each episode I'm joined by my guests, people from behind clinical doors to the North York malls, whose experiences open a window into how we care for one another.
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Together, we explore care through creativity, connection, and the strengths we already hold.
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Because care isn't small.
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Care isn't.
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Soft care shapes the world, so who cares.
0:37
Anyway, it's time to talk about it.
0:42
Hi, it's Ruth here, and before we get started, I just want to say I really enjoyed this conversation with Sam Elliott that we're about to have, as you can hear.
0:50
I didn't try saying the full part of his surname, but he forgave me for that.
0:54
But there's a couple of things that I was expecting Sam to say and they didn't come up and I was really surprised, so why I brought them up.
1:02
So I just wonder as you go through, if you might notice what was missing and um, what it was that I expected to hear.
1:09
I hope you enjoy it.
1:10
It's a great episode.
1:13
Hi, and welcome to, so Who Cares.
1:15
Anyway, firstly, hello to Sam, Sam Elliott who's joining us today.
1:19
Um, I'm gonna let him give a little introduction in a moment.
1:22
Um, and I'm not saying his surname, last part of your surname, Sam, I'm really sorry and I just want to say hello to all the listeners out there.
1:28
It seems that the nu the numbers are growing, so yeah, quite exciting.
1:32
The number of people out there.
1:34
And I particularly wanna say, I dunno who it is, but there's definitely at least one person out in Vietnam that the last three weeks has been listening avidly.
1:41
So I'm not sure if they live, if you live there, whoever you are, or perhaps if you're laying in a sunbed, you must be very bored.
1:46
You're listening to me.
1:47
So I just wanna say hello to you and to everybody else who's listening as well.
1:51
So thank you so much.
1:52
And Sam, let's come over to you so you can fully enlighten us on, um, your full name and also tell us a little bit more.
1:59
Thanks V.
2:00
Thank you ever so much for having me.
2:01
And yeah, don't worry about the, the last name.
2:03
It's what I called my marriage compromise.
2:05
So, uh, my bit is the Elliot part and my, uh, my husband's part is the, uh, second polish bit, which is El Kovich.
2:11
Uh, so yeah, former name is Sam.
2:12
I've Elliot Kovich there.
2:13
No, not many people do.
2:14
It's great when people call you and try, um, gives me a little bit of entertainment.
2:18
Uh, so yeah, um, I am, uh, I am a.
2:21
Senior multi-professional practice educator, so ironically, have a job longer than my actual name, which I didn't think was possible.
2:27
Um, but um, it's, it's a quite a very unique role, uh, within the health service and part of that, uh, enabled me to create, like you said, um, a podcast, uh, that I look, do and run myself with.
2:40
Um, an amazing team.
2:41
People who I managed to, I'm not gonna lie, bribe into the part of the project.
2:45
Um, and help me, and assist me do it.
2:47
And it all focuses on staff from all over the world as to why they've joined the NHS.
2:53
So we look at and talk about their journey stories, any problems they may have had and how they overcame them.
2:59
Why, why they chose the uk, and, uh, why they wanted to expand their careers here and, um, where they see themselves going.
3:06
So, um.
3:07
Yeah, it's been, it's been an amazing journey doing it.
3:10
So yeah, thanks to all of our listeners as well.
3:12
Um, the International Care Collective also continues to grow.
3:15
It's, it's amazing.
3:17
Thank you, Sam.
3:17
Yeah.
3:18
And I think I probably forgot to mention your podcast.
3:20
I think we've mentioned that when we was done the first recording and I somehow managed to switch off, didn't I? So, um, yeah, and I think that was why it was really fitting as well to say hello to these people out there because you are here today to talk about your podcast, but.
3:33
First of all, what I want to get is your, what led you to that, um, and your podcast, as you've said, is about what I would say until I listen to your podcast.
3:43
Um, I listen to one of your podcasts and it, I been for you saying it's not international recruitment.
3:48
It's something beyond that.
3:49
It's something it's not, that's isn't really how we should look at it.
3:52
But it is about people that have come and chosen to work in the NHS and in the uk.
3:57
But first of all, what I want, what I'd like from you is.
3:59
Just tell us a little bit more about who you are and your story and how you got to be doing this podcast in the first place.
4:06
Yeah, of course.
4:06
So, um, I'm a nurse by profession and, um, I've, I qualified in 2008, um, which sounds, every time I say it, it sounds longer and longer ago, which obviously it will do.
4:16
But in my head I just feel ancient and old.
4:18
But it's the experience that comes with it.
4:20
And I think, uh, I've kind of just, my, my career has just kind of flourished towards helping.
4:26
People that I'm working with as well as looking after the patients that I was obviously caring for.
4:30
So that kind of naturally led into an educational role within nursing.
4:35
Uh, and then, yeah, I've been kind of looking after pre and post registration nursing education.
4:42
Like in my, in my, um, initial early educational career.
4:46
Um, and then, um, I moved, moved down to the joys of Brighton and Sussex and, um, I, I wanted to kind of focus on one area, um, of education and that was international recruitment.
4:56
And obviously predominantly at the time it was focusing a lot on nursing.
4:59
'cause that's where all of the national funding was from.
5:04
Uh, so I was, um, obviously assisting staff through their, uh, what we call, uh, an OS C, which is observe structured clinical examination, uh, and, uh, yeah, training them to prepare them for that exam.
5:16
Um, and then after, after the kind of our numbers started.
5:21
Dropping, not, not by choice, but just because obviously be recruited into the, the areas that we needed to, uh, I got kind of given an a secondment opportunity.
5:31
So like I say, a lot of when you refer to international recruitment, you, you, I think people within a.
5:38
The, the National Health Service will automatically go to, to nursing.
5:41
'cause like I say, that's where all the funding was, but there's obviously more professions within the ENHS, um, and within any health, health system.
5:49
Uh, and there was kind of nothing in place for them, mostly from a pastoral support.
5:54
Perspective.
5:55
Um, and it was like, why are nurses getting all of this, this amazing pastoral support, but our other professions not so much.
6:01
So I was, I was brought on board to initially start looking after, um, our allied health professions, specifically radio, uh, diagnostic radiographers, but very early on in that secondment.
6:12
To me it was, it was very kind of poignant that a lot of the work that I was doing.
6:19
Specifically the pastoral elements.
6:21
It was, it was person specific, not profession specific.
6:25
So I quite instantaneously said to, to my manager at the time, if I'm doing this for one, why am I not doing it for all of our, all of our allied health professions? And they were quite keen and they were said, well, if you think you can do that, then great.
6:40
Let's, let's, let's go ahead and do that.
6:42
Um, so I did and, um.
6:45
It, it, it just went down amazingly well.
6:47
Um, and we, we kind of flourished from there.
6:51
Um, the podcast itself kind of came, I suppose the idea for it came from that perspective.
6:57
Uh, my, my job role is quite niche within the, within the health service.
7:01
There's, there's very few of me.
7:04
Um, of people that kind of look after many, many professions rather than just one.
7:08
You, if you do an educational role, you will tend to be the, a nursing, nursing educator, midwifery educator, or, or within that.
7:16
Whereas I, like I say, look after all, um, from a holistic pastoral support point of view, but for me, it gave me a lot of insight into professions that.
7:25
I actually, I'm not gonna lie, guilt felt I probably should have known more of.
7:29
Um, and these amazing people that are, like I say, coming from overseas that weren't necessarily nurses but still helping and contributing to our health service.
7:38
But there, there was no real platform for them to.
7:41
Kind of share their stories.
7:42
And I think that was the kind of the driver for me.
7:45
So there was, um, there's a division of, of NHS England, which is called Stay and Thrive, and they focus on international recruitment and retention.
7:52
And they, they, uh, they used to do what they called innovation bids.
7:56
Yeah, you did them yearly, you applied for them.
7:58
And I, I put the podcast down as an idea of a share sharing journey.
8:01
Stories as to why people have come from overseas to join the health service specifically here in the uk.
8:08
You know, what troubles they had, how they overcame them.
8:11
Um, and the bit the, the bid was, um, successful.
8:15
So yeah, that's kind of how we, we got to, uh, where we are now and how I've kind of got to where I am now.
8:21
I think it's one of the joys of a, a nursing career in the NHS.
8:25
If you'd have asked me when I qualified, if I would be here doing what I'm doing now career wise, I probably would've giggled at you and said, no, not a chance.
8:33
Um, but it's, it's just kind of organically developed, I would say, which has been amazing.
8:39
Thank you.
8:40
Thanks so much for that, Sam.
8:41
And um, I'm, I'm just gonna come back to the fact that you were talking about education and you know, to me I think interprofessional education, learning with other professions is so important.
8:51
'cause if we understand what other people can do, then actually sometimes I know, we all try to think, you know.
8:58
We try to fix things, don't we? So somebody comes to see us and we try to fix things, but we haven't always got the tools in the bag.
9:04
But if we know what else other people can do and we suddenly go, oh, hang on a minute, the OT can do this, or somebody else, the art therapist can do that, or the radiographer, and then suddenly we understand each other.
9:15
And I just think it's so important and, um, professional understanding.
9:18
So important because that makes a difference to the people that come to see us, doesn't it? And you were talking about that role, and I know because we had a pre-conversation that you were talking about that you're just doing your professional nurse advocate training as well.
9:32
So I wonder if you'll say a bit more about that, because you've.
9:34
Spoken about that and how you said, well, why professional nurse advocate? I think that was your, your question.
9:40
So do you want to talk about that as well? A little bit, Sam, if you don't mind, please.
9:44
Yeah, of course.
9:44
So, um, obviously the, uh, professional nurse advocate role, um, fer, anyone that doesn't know it, kind of disseminated from, um, uh, professional midwifery advocates, which has been in place for a long time and it's.
9:55
About what they call restorative clinical supervision.
9:57
So it's supporting people, uh, throughout their careers and their con, having conversations with them and trying to help people as individuals, um, flourish.
10:06
But by doing it and guiding them rather than kind of pointing them where to go, letting them try to organically find.
10:13
Their steps in, in whichever problem that they come to you.
10:16
And it's, it's a lovely part of, it's like a health and wellbeing initiative, and it was developed through the pandemic.
10:21
Um, uh, like you say, I had just done my course.
10:24
Yeah.
10:24
Just done awaiting, pending results as they say.
10:27
But, um, whilst I was, I was doing the course and I just, all of the research was.
10:33
That I was obviously looking into to kind of obviously formulate my, my coursework was again, kind of went back to that thing, like we were saying, it was, it's all, it was all very person centered, not profession centered.
10:45
So I was like, well, actually, why is it.
10:48
Professional nurse advocate, or for example, professional midwifery advocate instead of just professional advocate.
10:54
Because if all of this, what we're we're trying to do is support the, the person, why are we focusing on.
11:03
The profession.
11:04
So I, I entitled my, uh, my coursework advocates for all.
11:08
Um, and I did a critical appraisal of the, the research that was out there, um, to kind of argue why, why are we focusing just on one pos one profession? Um, and, and like I say, it's, it's something that I'm a big.
11:22
Big vocal advocate for in general, um, to use the term, again, advocate, but it's, it's sharing and learning together and learning from each other.
11:30
Um, I always remember, and I I, I attended a, a webinar yesterday and, and I did put it in, in one of the comments that when I was a nursing student many, many years ago, uh, we actually had specific modules on.
11:43
Interprofessional working prior to us going into placement, whereas those seem to not entirely across the, all of the, um, universities, but that those kind of modules tend to have gone or kind of been reduced to a certain extent.
11:59
And it's expected that, that our learners will go and have these multidisciplinary, um, experiences, shall we say, whilst they're on their clinical placements.
12:08
But actually in reality.
12:12
How are they? For me and I, I always say, you know, there should be some kind of background to it prior to that, that placement, because it enables the learner then to kind of have some understanding about what, what their role is like we were saying earlier.
12:25
So yeah, I'm a huge advocate for multi-professional learning.
12:28
You know, we, we, we advocate in the, in the NHS that we are a multidisciplinary team, whereas my argument is, well, if that's the case, are we not, should we not be learning together as well as working together? Because if you do that.
12:41
Beginning point, the, you know, the multi-professional working.
12:44
Element will again, come organically rather than, I suppose, kind of almost kind of having to learn post registration more.
12:51
Yeah, I mean, it makes complete sense to me.
12:54
So all my place-based learning work was around, um, working and learning together.
12:59
And I think that, you know, we talk about transformation and what people forget is you can't transform anything if you're not learning.
13:06
Because you need to learn, you need to be creative, and you need to think, but you need to understand, you need to understand everybody there.
13:11
And I think that interprofessional part's so important and it takes me back when I was on my Darzi program, so it was a program that I'd done, um, a few years ago and it's sort of around leadership, but we had a room full of different professionals and we had to get into our groups.
13:25
So I was obviously in the group with nurses.
13:27
We had to get into our groups and we had to write a letter to each of the other professions.
13:31
Same.
13:32
What we thought of them, what we liked about them, what we thought perhaps we'd, you know, we found difficult.
13:37
And of course being nurses, you know, and we were that bit older.
13:40
'cause you're talking about qualifying in 2008.
13:43
I'll beat you.
13:43
I qualified in 1988, so a long time ago.
13:47
But it brings experience, doesn't it? And it brings knowledge and, and insight.
13:52
So, but we were talking about that.
13:53
Vision, you know, particularly when we're writing to the doctors, you know, do you think we are handmaidens? You know, we were writing that in there and the doctors in the room didn't think that, but of course it was in our head.
14:03
So we were able to articulate it and say it, and physios all, you just move, you know, just get people to move about.
14:09
But actually it's so much more.
14:11
So, so we were, those questions that we asked each other were so important, so it takes me back to that.
14:16
But, um.
14:18
What are the things that's really come through, and I'm gonna come back to the international recruitment bit in your podcast in a moment, some of the things that you found out from that.
14:24
But what I've really picked up from you, Sam, is about the, in all of the things that you've spoken about is that you are obviously got this desire to be an advocate for people, particularly for other staff.
14:35
And I'm wondering, was driven that, where did that come from? I think, if I'm honest, I think it was that that transition from.
14:42
Nursing in, in a clinical practice place.
14:46
It was kind of like for me when I, when I qualified him and I was obviously working more clinically, luckily I still get to do some clinical hours, um, within my current role, which is great 'cause it makes me still feel like, okay, I am still a nurse and I can still do these things that I'm still obviously keeping myself up to date.
15:01
But you know, when I was doing that, I always called it my subliminal joy.
15:04
Um, I left work knowing that I'd made a difference to these patients, and when I moved over to kind of this educational role where there was less clinical practice, that subliminal joy there, there was kind of like a transition of, okay, the joy that I got from seeing patients get better and, and seeing them, you know.
15:24
Just go from being at their worst to kind of leaving and walking out the unit at their, not necessarily at their best, but a lot better than what they, they came in.
15:32
Um, it was like, where am I gonna get that with education? And it kind of took a while for me to kind of find that it was a journey for myself.
15:39
Um, but it, it kind of developed from.
15:43
After, I think it was about six months where I was originally when I started my first educational role and I was looking after some, some final year students and then seeing them, uh, go from their student student nurse uniform into their, what we call our, our bound vital staff nurse uniform.
15:58
Um, and then suddenly the joy kicked in.
16:00
It was like.
16:01
I was part of that.
16:03
So I was part of their journey.
16:04
That's, you know, and someone gave me some feedback once and they were like, I think it was, it was along the lines of, it was, it had me in tears.
16:12
I won't lie.
16:12
It was, um, thank you so much for your support.
16:15
Genuinely didn't think that I would, would qualify, but your encouragement and support.
16:22
Pushed me to to do this and instantaneously it was like a light bulb moment.
16:28
It was like there's, there's the subliminal joy there.
16:31
That's where it is.
16:32
So it's kind of that transition and that has now just kind of continued to fuel on for everything I do.
16:40
Uh, don't get me wrong, I still love the clinical work and I love looking after patients and seeing them get better and, and, and doing that, but also, you know, seeing our staff flourish, especially those who have, who have made that, that tremendous journey from leaving their home countries thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of miles away to come and, and join and support.
17:01
The National Health Service here, seeing them arrive, grow and flourish is, it's just such a joy.
17:07
Um, and they're so eternally grateful for what I consider the minimal part that I played in that journey for them.
17:14
Uh, that it, it just drives me to keep going and be like I say, the advocate for, for people that, that.
17:20
Probably may not necessarily have a space or have a voice or have, have, or feel like they can have a voice.
17:26
I will be that voice for them.
17:27
I will, I will be that what they call my, uh, I'll be that foghorn for them so that they have a, have a voice and they are heard, um, and valued in the way that I've.
17:36
I genuinely feel they should be.
17:38
Thank you.
17:38
And that resonates because I can remember when I went from clinical practice into working with, uh, what's Health Education England back then.
17:46
And taking that other role and just really missing that.
17:49
You know, I've been in general practice.
17:50
I had 10 minute appointments at the end of every 10 minute appointment.
17:53
Hopefully somebody was leaving happy or happier than they were before they came in.
17:58
And so you've got that constant, I like that subliminal joy.
18:02
But yeah, it just disappeared overnight.
18:04
And instead of getting that, you know, every 10 minutes, I had to wait.
18:08
I had to wait for things to happen.
18:09
So I completely get that.
18:11
But your advocacy's just kept going.
18:13
So it is not just, um, seeing qu people qualify, it's about giving people voice.
18:17
So that brings me back to your podcast, and you mentioned a couple of things earlier on, so I'm just gonna bring you back, back to them.
18:24
So you spoke about.
18:25
People, people coming.
18:27
Why did that? Why do people come? Why do people choose to come and work in the UK and the NHS? You spoke about the troubles that perhaps they have and how they overcome, overcome those.
18:37
And you've just, um, spoken about the fact that people come from thousands of miles.
18:43
Hundreds of thousands of miles to work here, you know? And when you put it like that, you suddenly think, yeah, that's a massive tear away from your community, from your family and, and culture wise.
18:53
So I can imagine there's a lot there.
18:55
So I wanna focus on that bit first.
18:57
I've got another question for later, but I'm, I, sometimes I ask all the questions at once.
19:00
I'm not gonna do that.
19:01
So, so firstly, let's start with why.
19:03
Why do people.
19:04
Come to work in the uk.
19:06
It's, it's a multitude of reasons, and it's, to be fair for me, I, I mean, just by doing the podcast itself, I've learned so much from these people.
19:14
Um, they have been absolutely amazing, um, by opening up and sharing their stories.
19:19
Um, a lot of the time it comes to do with progression, um, and wanting to see their role from a.
19:27
Perspective of where funding is and where there's more up, what a lot of them have said, upgraded technology and more chance of career development and yeah, they, they kind of wanna see themselves drive and see what also they can take back.
19:42
So, you know what ideas they can learn from from us here in the UK that they can pass back to their colleagues.
19:49
Um, at home in their home countries, and they, they're, they're really big advocates for that as well.
19:54
Uh, I use that word again, advocates, but they, they really are.
19:57
And they, they, they love learning how we do things here.
20:02
Uh, but one of the, the joys that I've, I've found within the podcast is, is again, giving, giving these people the opportunity in a platform to share their stories, but also share their clinical knowledge.
20:10
So I think there's, there's also like, like a blindsided thing that, that, you know.
20:15
We are here, we're in the uk.
20:17
We have this amazing technology and we have all these things, but that doesn't necessarily mean that what people, um, are practicing in other countries is any less relevant.
20:26
They may be doing something that we are not because we have the technology, but actually may be more beneficial.
20:32
So it's kind of that, that, that learning from what they do as well and, and, and, and seeing that, um.
20:40
A lot, a lot of our, um, staff from overseas, they, they have said that they, they love the opportunity of, of growing from an educational perspective as well.
20:49
So the opportunities for them to improve, um, looking at doing their masters, the, even their PhDs in certain areas, um, which that opportunity wouldn't be, um, available for them in their home countries for, for whatever reason that is.
21:03
And, and yeah, they, a lot of them just wanna experience life.
21:06
Um, we have a vast majority, like I say, of professions that do join us and, and they're at different stages of their life.
21:12
But yeah, a lot of them want that life experience to see and kind of say, you know what? I've done this.
21:18
Uh, and you know, I think a, I think a lot of them have in, in without stereotyping have come with that, okay, I'm gonna come for a couple of years, get the experience, take it home, and, and they end up staying because they end up calling it.
21:32
Calling, calling the UK home.
21:34
And, and that for me is a delight because for, for someone to travel, for example, um, we, we have a wonderful dietician.
21:43
We have loads of wonderful dieticians, but one specifically from South Africa and.
21:48
I think she came over.
21:49
She, her story was amazing.
21:51
Um, she did a scholarship when she was like 16, 17, I believe it was.
21:54
Um, and she met some, a lovely lady at this conference when she came to London for this.
21:59
And, um, the, the lady at this conference said, prepare, prepare for the uk 'cause you're coming back.
22:04
And that was her, her, her seed.
22:06
The seed was planted then and she just.
22:09
Continued.
22:09
And now, now she's here.
22:11
Um, and I think she's been with us two years and she, she, she started as, um, uh, a, a band five dietician.
22:17
She's already progressed within, within the space of, it's a year and a half, I believe it is.
22:21
Um, so she's already now a, a specialist dietician.
22:24
Now within, within.
22:25
The trust that, that I work for.
22:27
And, and again, seeing that, that progression grow and, and she came back to me and this is why I'm here.
22:32
This is, you know, having that progression and, and feeling valued in their roles.
22:36
Um, a lot of, a lot of our staff from overseas will, will come from what, what we, we call hierarchical structures, where it's the doc, doctor is, is, is, is boss, and it's very much a yes or no sir.
22:50
Feedback's full, sir.
22:51
You, you, you do as you're told from the doctor.
22:53
Whereas obviously here in the NHS, um, specifically, um, it's a multidisciplinary team approach.
23:00
So one of the things that I do say to, to our staff, 'cause I have pre-calls with them before they arrive, um, and I always say, you, you are not getting on a plane and forgetting how to do your career.
23:13
That's not what you're gonna struggle with.
23:14
What you're gonna struggle with is how to work within a multidisciplinary team.
23:18
'cause you will have doctors, sometimes senior doctors come up to you and ask for your opinion on a patient because you have worked more closely with them and they are really not used to that.
23:27
Um, so that kind of tends to be their.
23:29
Ooh, moment of, uh, panic and joy.
23:33
Uh, should I answer, should I say anything? It's, it is, you know, it's overcoming those, again, that kind of feeds into what you're saying, that cultural thing from a, from a work perspective, but also, again, learning from, from our, our.
23:45
People from all over the world.
23:47
And, and you know, we, we talk a lot about cultural competence, you know, in, in the NHS and in the health service.
23:52
But, you know, we can learn so much from these amazing people, um, about their cultures as well.
23:58
You know, I, I always feel that, that that cultural exchange, um, it should be.
24:03
Of, of, you know, yes.
24:04
You know, they're coming, coming to the uk.
24:06
They're, they, they, you know, they need to be aware of some customs cultures, idioms, language changes as well.
24:12
But that doesn't necessarily mean we can't do the same and learn about them.
24:16
And that's again, kind of one of the elements in the podcast that we, we slid in.
24:21
That's brilliant.
24:21
And I, I will say, I, one of the podcasts that I listened to of yours, you asked people to bring things along and she brought in an avocado.
24:30
And said, because you've come home and the avocado is so big, and you're like, wow.
24:34
Because compared to what we get in the UK though, this is, this is an avocado.
24:38
But just those little things just, yeah, your podcast is delightful.
24:41
'cause you really do get people to share, um, not just all of the things that you've spoken about.
24:47
Just, just little things like that and the fact that people can bring things in to talk about, um.
24:52
Is wonderful, but you've, you've covered lots there and I think you might have preempted some of my next question, but Yeah.
24:57
So people come here, say, come, you've learned much from them.
25:00
I think that's always the way, isn't it? You, we just learn so much from other people.
25:04
But what you've said there, which I hadn't really thought about.
25:07
So we learn from people that are coming from other areas clinically.
25:11
And I suppose it does take me back.
25:13
I remember talking to, um, a GP a little while ago and he was a gab mlai, and he was saying about how actually sometimes we've got things that we do here, but there are things that we bring that people bring from, from other cultures.
25:27
Um.
25:28
And it is because there isn't the technology or that way of working.
25:32
But I wanna just jump ahead to the bit where you've spoken about being part of that MDT team.
25:37
And I think probably I alluded to this earlier on where, you know, asking the doctors, do you see us as handmaidens? And I think that we've come on that journey because in 1988, I remember.
25:48
Well, I can remember before then I was a student on a ward and I was told that I would be allowed that day as a third year to make the coffee, filtered coffee for the, for the consultant round like I had made it now.
26:01
So, so I think we've come on a long journey.
26:03
I, I was petrified 'cause I knew that I was gonna drop this tray and smash it and I managed to get a friend to do it for me instead because I thought everything would just go everywhere knowing me.
26:11
Um, and I didn't really want to do it.
26:13
'cause even back then I was like, I don't think that's why I became a nurse to, to make coffee for the doctor.
26:17
So I think we've come a long way culturally, but actually if people are seeing that where perhaps another culture hasn't come on that journey, then actually that's great, isn't it? 'cause we're spreading.
26:28
That journey that we've had and helping to, to change that and the fact that people are taking things back to their own cultures as well as bringing stuff here.
26:37
So I think that's a really, um, interesting, and one thing that you haven't mentioned that I think most people would assume is you haven't said that people are come for financial reasons.
26:47
Yeah, a hundred, a hundred percent.
26:49
So, um, a lot of, a lot of our staff, if not all, um, from overseas will come.
26:56
There is a, there's a cultural expectation, which, um, I, I still struggle with from my own perspective because I'm not familiar with it, but they, they will come over here at a certain age.
27:06
They, they are expected to then support their.
27:10
Their families.
27:11
So whereas, you know, me being at the age of 43 will sometimes go to my mum, can you lend me a five? Adjust to this bit.
27:18
Um, you know, they wouldn't dare to do that now.
27:21
Um, but because they, they are, they are kinds of heads of the house because they are then supporting their families at home.
27:29
So they will come over here, um, and send a lot of money home.
27:34
So that they can support their, their relatives.
27:36
So predominantly their, their parents, but obviously also their grandparents and, and, and so on.
27:42
So they are, they are the breadwinners for their family, um, after, after a certain point.
27:48
So a lot of them will come here for that reason, so that they can not only develop themselves, but ensure that their families have, have a great life as well.
27:55
And it's, it's like I say, when we talk about culture, that is a big thing from, from.
28:01
Uh, overseas staff specifically that they support.
28:05
Like I say, I mean, we, we obviously will, you know, we look after our parents in other ways and things like that, but there isn't, I would say, from a, from a British perspective, that, that you hit a certain age and then you are expected to support and, and, um, you know, financially support your family.
28:23
So, you know, it's, it's still, it's still, it baffles me in a good way.
28:27
'cause it's actually quite.
28:29
I'm gonna say joyful to see that they, they, they are so willing and happy to do that.
28:35
But you know, I always, I always try and titrate them when they're doing it just to make sure as I, you know, yes, do it because it's your culture and I'm not going to ever tell you not to do that.
28:46
It's not for me to tell you not to do that, but do it in a way that you can still live your life and, and, you know, they can live theirs as well.
28:55
Um, we have had cases, um.
28:58
Um, across the uk.
29:00
Um, I'm aware that, that we have had, um, staff that have come, come from overseas and sent, sent a lot of money home, and then they're, they're going to food banks for themselves.
29:09
And I'm like, that's, that's not, that's not why you're here I think there's a, there is a, and, and by doing just my little bit of digging, um, by speaking to, to our staff and saying, you know, why are you, why are they living the lap of luxury there? And you are struggling to.
29:25
Get a meal here that can't be the reason why you are here.
29:30
Um, so, you know, and it was a learning thing for me in the initial offset of, of, of working in, in a spec specific area of international recruitment to say, I, I will never tell you to change your culture, but at the same time, you know, we know how far.
29:45
You know, at some point the pound goes in other countries.
29:48
So you know, don't start off with a massive chunk of money and then leave yourself struggling because you still need to live your life here.
29:56
But whereas they were saying there is that, that cultural expectation from their side, not just them, but their, their parents and their family, you're going to the uk, you're going to be rich.
30:04
So it's kind of trying to find that happy, happy balance.
30:09
Yes.
30:09
Yeah.
30:10
Which I can imagine is quite, um.
30:13
Quite difficult to do because if there's a cultural expectation, then then just say no.
30:18
And of course, I suppose if you think about it, just even when we all go on our holidays and things, we're aware that we do seem quite rich sometimes to what other people are, but perhaps their riches are different and it's something about understanding.
30:31
What those riches are and, and whether or not, you know, and living, living your life, like you say, being able to do the things that you need to do and do them, maybe not as a richness, but in comfort and, and why shouldn't you? So how does that work? So I should imagine that's quite an interesting conversation, but it's the fact that you didn't bring that up at the beginning and I don't think it was deliberate that you didn't bring it up at the beginning as a reason why.
30:54
I think it, you know, it really came through that that was a secondary reason.
31:00
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31:03
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31:10
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31:16
Now back to the conversation.
31:20
But it brings me to, to my next question that I came up with as you were talking, which is what, what troubles, 'cause you mentioned this, what troubles are people facing? I would say that's one of them, and maybe you want to extend on that a little bit more, but maybe there's others and, and how do they manage those? And I think that might be how do they manage those, but also having somebody in your role as an advocate to support them, to manage those.
31:43
So I wonder if you could just share some of that please, Sam.
31:46
Yeah, of course.
31:46
I mean, I think the predominantly, the first one is always gonna be they're missing their family.
31:50
Uh, so the people that they're here to support it, it's missing your family and, and having that close network of people.
31:57
Um, so when I say family, I, I include friendship, families within that as well.
32:02
And you know, they're, I always kind of put it as these wonderful people are having to basically learn how to be an adult again.
32:09
Because they're having to generate new friendships.
32:12
They're having to learn how things work.
32:14
They're having to, you know, learn which supermarket to go to, which, how to, how to get a sim card.
32:20
You know, things that we obviously in this country would take for granted.
32:23
'cause we've gen, you know, we've been brought up with that.
32:26
It's kind of like seeing it from the flip side.
32:28
What would we be like if we had to do the other.
32:30
Do it the other way.
32:32
Um, and making sure that there are processes and things in place.
32:35
So yeah, family, missing family and having a kind of a network, um, of people, um, to kind of start that network with here in the uk.
32:44
Um, you know, we, we, I would think, you know, I think we're all blessed with the joys of technology where we can FaceTime now and we can have those conversations, but it's not the same of, of sitting next to your family member and being able to.
32:56
You know, give them a hug and, you know, give them, you know, give them that cuddle or whatever it is that you would want to do to that family member.
33:03
You know, you can't physically do that around a mobile phone.
33:07
So it's, it's really difficult.
33:09
So it's for me, you know, specifically from that.
33:12
You know, like you say, the advocate role, I always say it's the, that my pastoral support, uh, promotion role is making sure that we have things in place for them when they're here.
33:21
So, um, I, I created, um, a, uh, a WhatsApp group for all of our staff that come from overseas regardless of profession.
33:29
And any, anytime someone arrives, um, they all go into this group.
33:35
Um, I introduce them, get them to be welcomed in and.
33:39
I, I actually rarely ha other than that, I rarely have to do anything now because that they are a community within the, within themselves and they all support each other.
33:48
Um, and it's so important because they, they know.
33:52
That they're not going and they're not gonna be ever alone.
33:55
And you know, for me, my, I, my, my, my phone is always on.
33:59
So I always say to them, you know, if you, if you are ever feeling like there's something wrong, you have my number, use it.
34:08
That's what it's there for.
34:09
You know, obviously if it's an emergency call the right, right number.
34:12
Don't, don't, don't be calling me and saying I'm having a heart.
34:14
No, no, no, no.
34:15
Call.
34:15
Call 9 9 9 first.
34:16
But, you know, if you are having something that you want to talk and chat about, I'm here.
34:20
And I think it's something that kind of has kind of fed me into this kind of humanistic element of, of, of the work is, you know, we are humans before our profession.
34:29
So, you know, don't.
34:31
See me as my professional title.
34:33
'cause again, that hierarchical system that our overseas staff are familiar with may be a barrier to actually wanting to just to be open and talk to me.
34:40
Um, you know, I am Sam first before I'm anything else.
34:44
So, you know, if you need to talk to me, you talk to me as Sam, not Sam, your, your, you know, international recruitment, you know, nurse, lead, educator, whatever you want to call me.
34:54
You know, I am Sam first, so if you're struggling.
34:56
Come to me.
34:58
A lot of the weather is a big one.
35:00
They struggle with the weather, which to be fair, I always j and joke with them as like, you are, you are not alone.
35:05
We struggle with the weather and we are from here.
35:07
So, um, you know, but, uh, that tends to, but they adjust, they adapt.
35:11
Um, you know, we, uh, we, yeah, we advise them of kind of, you know, what, not what to wear, but kind of what kind of things to go for and to be aware of and what apps to kind of check and be aware of.
35:21
Prepare themselves for when they're going out.
35:23
Um, especially down here in Sussex, along the coast.
35:26
Um, you know, it can look lovely, but then that wind can come out of nowhere and shock you.
35:29
So, uh, that tends to be when food, food is an hilarious one, um, which I get to benefit from 'cause they start cooking me things from their home country.
35:37
So I'm, I'm being given gifts and food gifts and things, and they're kind of introducing me, uh, which again is a learning aspect for me.
35:44
Learning all these different flavors and, and textures and, and, and cultural food.
35:48
And it's, you know, it's such a.
35:50
Big important part of their lives.
35:51
So for them to, you know, have that here is so important.
35:56
And one of the, one of the first things that I did when I, when I came to, to Sussex was like, I did my own kind of like mini research and I just went round and said, look to these, um, world food supermarkets.
36:07
Um, you know, look, we have a lot of people coming from overseas, you know.
36:11
Is there, is there, you know, if I put 'em in your direction, would you be able to help them? Would you remote assist them? And, and they were like, they were like, send them, send them to us, send 'em to us, tell 'em to show their id, send them to us.
36:22
Um, and bless them.
36:22
They were really, really supportive and helpful.
36:24
And um, and that was just by me being gonna say a bit Goshen, just going, would you help them? And, you know, and, uh, yeah, it was, it, it worked.
36:31
Um, so yeah, it's kind of like making sure whatever troubles that they have.
36:37
I have at least tried to do something to kind of counterbalance it or counteract it, if that makes sense.
36:42
But yeah, I think, I think the family one is, is, is a difficult one.
36:44
We had one recently actually where, you know, um, obviously annual leave tended to be a bit of a, uh, and not an issue, but kind of like actually.
36:53
Putting into, uh, retrospect.
36:55
For example, when we take annual leave, you know, and we want to go and see our family, we just have to jump in a car or jump on a train to go to wherever we want to go, um, in the UK to do that.
37:05
Whereas our staff from overseas, they have to factor in.
37:08
That flight time, that journey time, that recovery time, and depending on how far they're traveling.
37:14
So I was, yeah, trying to kind of give a, give one, uh, one of our international staff, just the, you know, an idea of how to kind of balance their annual leave to enable the fact that they can actually have that kind of, not extended time, but the time to kind of go actually enjoy the time with their family and then come home.
37:34
Or come back to the uk I keep staying home, but come, come back to the uk.
37:37
Uh, so that they, they've en not only got to go and see their family, but they've actually got to enjoy the time whilst they're there without worrying about the fact that they're, you know, they're adjusting body clockwise and then having to come back and then do the same again.
37:50
So I was like, just structuring it in a way.
37:53
'cause obviously it's an element that we, you know, again, we take for granted we can jump in a car, jump on a train, you know, zoom.
37:58
We are there within a couple of hours.
37:59
Whereas them, they have to, you know, most of the time, by the time that they've gone through airport security, we are at our family members.
38:05
So it's kind of taken those elements into consideration, but again, finding ways of supporting them through that.
38:11
Thank you.
38:12
And.
38:13
Putting so many bits there that you've said, and it sounds like you've preempted and love the fact that you've been into the shops and said, can I send them your way? Will you help them? You support them.
38:22
So yeah, just thinking of those extra little things that you can do to make sure these people feel supported and then yeah, whether food, and of course, they're bringing that food back to you.
38:33
So that sounds absolutely delightful.
38:34
They're, they're cooking and doing things for you, that's a bit of a win.
38:38
Um.
38:39
You what you've spoken about, you've spoken about quite a few things here, but what I'm wondering as well is what about, how about fitting in into their commun into the local community? How is that and how, um, are people, is that something you struggle with? And when I say community, I mean it in the broadest sense.
38:55
So maybe the community of the place where they work, be that I think you're in a hospital trust, so be that on the ward or be that whatever team they're in, um.
39:05
And then also the community as in where they live and that local community, because a lot of people will have come from communities that are very different from ours, you know? And depending what your local area is, I dunno, it's like, you know, I talked to the few neighbors around me in the street and the few that walk down, but you know, it's not perhaps the same as when I've been abroad and sort of spent some time there.
39:26
And you realize that everybody talks to everybody and everybody knows everybody and maybe.
39:31
I dunno what it's like down on the Sussex coast, it might be different.
39:34
So there's that community at work and the reason why that's so important is, you know, you think you spoke about that learning earlier on, and actually learning is social.
39:44
So they, people need to fit in and feel part of that team.
39:47
So I wonder if you could just talk a little bit more to that please, Sam? Yeah, a hundred, a hundred percent.
39:51
It's, it's, it learn learning is so social and it's making sure that they have those.
39:58
I'm gonna say security blankets.
39:59
'cause it is something, it's something you feel that you need to feel secure, not just in your job, but in your day-to-day lives.
40:05
So, um, obviously our, our, our trust where, where, where I work at the moment, we, we cover the, pretty much like the southeast coast from, from, you know.
40:15
Brighton over to Chichester.
40:16
So it's quite a big, uh, big map area, um, of where, where we cover and, and have patient groups and, and, and those in themselves can change and differentiate from kind of social dynamic and, and what is available there.
40:31
One of the things that I did initially, um, when, when I started this, this secondment role that, um, has now turned into permanent, but it.
40:40
It was like a pastoral support guide is what I developed basically.
40:46
Um, and I called it the, uh, the, uh, the Sussex Bible and, and it literally was everything and anything that I could possibly think of.
40:57
Um.
40:58
That they would possibly need.
41:00
So where, where all their local churches are, where their local mosques are, where their local supermarkets are, where the, um, how to get a bus, local radio stations, councils, and tax, and, and how to go around doing that.
41:14
How to find a school for your children where your, how to register with a gp, how to register with a dentist, how everything works across it.
41:21
It was a passion project, I'm not gonna lie, but it, it really, really, it, it.
41:26
It just ma it made their lives so much easier.
41:29
Um, and it was making sure, so again, making sure that they felt that they had something already.
41:34
Um, at work, you were saying like about that community and feeling involved.
41:38
So from the offset, like I say, having that WhatsApp group and, and knowing that people within the trust, regardless of where they are, are gonna be there.
41:46
Already, um, has been amazing.
41:49
And, and a lot of our, our managers who, who are obviously recruiting these amazing people into their roles, um, they, they, they are learning from, from these amazing people, but they also, they, they join in with the meetings that I have, um, with them before they arrive.
42:06
So just.
42:07
To kind of give you an idea of the process that, that I have, uh, and this is for any, any profession is, uh, when you know they've applied for a job, they've been interviewed and they've been successful, they have to get something called a certificate of sponsorship, which is done by the trust to say, and, and in order for them to get their visa.
42:24
Um, what happens then? Um, human resources then contact me.
42:28
Uh, and they, uh, give me their details and I reach out to 'em straight away, introduce myself, send them the pastoral support guide.
42:35
We send them a di, we send 'em a dietary guide, which I created, um, actually in collaboration with a team up in West Yorkshire who, a dietician who had created one up there.
42:44
And kindly let me use that and kind of adapt it for, for Sussex.
42:48
Um, and um, yeah, we'll send them that, send them those, and then just offer them a conversation.
42:54
Um, and we, we have a, we have a teams catch up before they've even arrived so that they can ask any questions that they have.
43:02
Um, I can support them, put them in touch with our accommodation teams here.
43:05
So they've got some, they know that they've got somewhere to live, first off, when they first arrive.
43:10
Um, you know, making sure they know where the supermarkets are, what apps to download.
43:15
Um, we, you know, managed to get them, um, uh, specifically in Brighton.
43:19
The, uh.
43:20
Was it a 30 day free bus pass so they can travel around and explore the area for free, so they don't have to worry about that when they first arrive.
43:27
Um, but all, like I say, their managers are all aware of this, and if they've got any questions, they usually come to me and say, are they okay? They seem a bit down today.
43:35
Are they okay? Do you know? Have you heard? And you know, they're, they're really concerned about their welfare.
43:39
Um, um, but their, their teams are amazing and they, they all kind of embrace them.
43:44
Uh, in the best possible way.
43:47
Um, in terms of communities, like I say, our, our, our trust is huge.
43:51
Um, uh, in comparison to kind of, I, I, I lived in London prior to moving down to Sussex, and it is a, it is a culture shock for me.
43:59
So even for that, I was like, that's if it's a culture shock for me, imagine how it must be.
44:04
For them.
44:04
So again, it's kind of making sure they're aware of where they can go and what what they're into.
44:09
So when I have these pastoral support calls with them, I do ask 'em.
44:13
I like, what, what interests do you have outside of your, your profession? What you know, do you like football? Do you like cricket, for example? And, and we had, I've got one example that we had, we had a, a wonderful OT from, uh, India.
44:26
Uh, and he, he was based over on, on, uh, in Chichester, uh, and he.
44:32
He was, he was really struggling, not with his clinical role, but just from a social perspective.
44:37
So I, I just, you know, jumped on the train, uh, and said, look, I'm in just a, when, when you've got your break, let me know.
44:44
Come find me.
44:45
We'll have a chat.
44:46
We'll have a catch up.
44:47
Uh, we met, we sat down and he, you know, I said, what interests you? Uh, and he kind of looked at me very.
44:54
Skeptically as if it was like a trick question.
44:56
It was like, no, generally what interests you? What do you like to do? Forget your job, forget your career, what interests you? Um, and he said, cricket.
45:08
Uh, and, um, I am probably one of the least, um, cricket knowledgeable people in the world, but Google helped me, so we just jumped on a phone, looked for local cricket clubs within the area of where he was living.
45:21
Uh, and literally within two weeks he joined and started playing cricket every week.
45:25
And, uh, created, you know, joined and started that community there.
45:29
Um, and I touched base with him every so often and just said, you know, how are you getting on? Are you still doing the cricket? And he was like, yeah.
45:36
And he, he, he bless it.
45:38
It's, it's, it's so rewarding just to hear that he, he always say, you know, say thank you.
45:42
'cause without you, I wouldn't have even.
45:43
Considered it.
45:44
Uh, and that makes so much difference, doesn't it? So, yeah, it sounds like you've got lots of wraparound, the, and lots of things in place.
45:52
So I'm aware of time, but there's just a couple of bits that I want to ask you.
45:56
The one thing that you haven't talked about, which I thought might come up is, are people, are people coming back to you? Is, are people experiencing discrimination? Is that happening? And if so, what? What? What can we do? Or what do you do and, and how does that land, how do we get over that? Perhaps not in depth, 'cause that could be another podcast maybe.
46:19
I don't know.
46:19
But you haven't brought it up.
46:20
And I found that interesting that you didn't.
46:23
And then finally, and I think the sort of two things linked together is you've spoken about what we gain and how we might gain some clinical knowledge, how we might gain that cultural knowledge from people.
46:34
But actually, what else do we gain? So why, why do we need people? To come to the UK to work here.
46:42
So what's in it for us, not just the nice to haves.
46:46
And I think that is far more than the nice to have.
46:48
I think that brings a huge richness.
46:49
But some people might see that as a nice to have, what is it in it for us in the uk.
46:53
So Sam, I'm gonna leave you with those last two questions if you don't mind.
46:57
Not a problem.
46:58
Say so.
46:58
Discrimination.
46:59
I mean, you know, we hate to say it, but it is there.
47:02
Um, whether it be intentional or sometimes, um, and actually I would say vast majority of the times unintentional, um, you know, it's, it's kind of done subliminally that, that, that it's kind of underhanded.
47:14
Um, and so I do have some staff, thankfully, not a lot, um, but some staff do, do come up to mean, go, I'm being treated this way, whereas some other people are being treated in a different way.
47:26
Is it because of.
47:28
Where I'm from.
47:29
And so obviously I have to do a bit of a deep dive into that conversationally with them and just say, you know, why you, you are valid to feel that way, but why are you feeling that way? And what, what, what kind of, I always say the word evidence, but I hate it 'cause it seems like you have to reinvestigate it, but you know, what kind of, what have you got to kind of back up the way the in, in.
47:48
That you are thinking like that.
47:50
Um, and we kind of like do a little bit of a deep dive, like a, almost like going back to that professional advocacy thing, like a bit of a restorative clinical supervision session with them, where I will ask them to kind of tell me, uh.
48:04
Where they've kind of got those ideas from and, and, and why they think that and, and if they are valid, what they want me to do to support them within that.
48:12
Um, so, you know, it, it, it is those kind of things that you have to look at when it's external.
48:17
Um, obviously I do say, you know, if if you have been, you know, racially abused, but you know, then, then do report that.
48:25
Um, because I think it's that one of those things that, that they.
48:29
They think it, they should just expect.
48:31
And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
48:33
Um, you know, if that happens, you report it.
48:36
That is, that is how it's done.
48:37
And you can do that either via, via the trust or, or go go to the police and report it appropriately.
48:44
In the same way that, that anyone from the L-G-B-T-Q-I-A community would report it as a hate crime.
48:48
I was like, you should be doing the same for, for a race, a racism.
48:52
Uh, attack on you.
48:54
Um, again, luckily that hasn't happened.
48:56
Um, but it's, it's, it's so that they know that again, that they have those, those structures in place, um, and have that support in place.
49:06
And know that again, that they are not alone, you know? And they can come to me.
49:10
I can't be the one to tell them how it feels.
49:12
They have to tell me how it feels.
49:13
I will, I will never say, I know how you feel.
49:16
'cause I don't, um, that would be.
49:18
That would be a lie.
49:20
But what I can do is learn from them when they have something like this and what they need, and that will be individualistic.
49:27
It won't be, it won't be stereotypical across the board.
49:30
Everyone will feel and deal with it in a different way.
49:33
But again, that enables me to grow.
49:36
Um, I would say, uh, and again, feeding back into that, you know, we are humans before our professions thing.
49:41
It's, it's, you know, enabling me to grow from a, from a cultural perspective.
49:46
And I kind of that suppose it links into the gains really.
49:49
You know, what are we gaining from these people joining, joining us here in the uk? We're, we're.
49:56
We are, we are, we're being blessed with different cultures, different ideas, different techniques, different ways of thinking, different different points of view.
50:07
Um, you know, it's one of those things that, you know, we're all entitled to our opinions, but that doesn't necessarily make them right.
50:12
But at least we can kind of see and learn from these different opinions and objectives and, and having that in our, in our health service.
50:20
And also being like, like I said earlier, them being able to take back what they're learning here.
50:25
To there and kind of having that exchange, um, of understanding of what we can do to maybe change things here is, is a gain for anyone.
50:34
I say it's a win-win.
50:36
Um, that there, there, there's, there's very little negative in it.
50:40
Um, don't get me wrong, I would love for our, our youth of today to want to jump into healthcare and, um, you know, look at.
50:46
Healthcare as being a, an amazing profession, which it is.
50:49
And I, you know, I wouldn't change my career trajectory for anything in the world.
50:54
So I strongly advocate that, you know, if you're thinking of healthcare, go for it.
50:57
'cause you won't regret it.
50:58
It, it's, you know, it's not, you know, the monetary rewards that you get out of it.
51:02
It's that fact that you've, you can leave your role, whatever that is at the end of the day, knowing that you've made a difference to someone else's life in a way that you never.
51:13
Could do in another career and that's priceless.
51:17
And, and you know, that's what I always kind of aim.
51:20
But you know, while whilst there are vacancies and there are these people that want to come here and experience life in the UK and, and actually, you know, contribute to our society.
51:30
Then, then that's, uh, could only be a gain for all of us.
51:35
Thank you.
51:35
And I thought those two questions might link, and you, you followed them on really well.
51:39
But as I say, I was really surprised the two surprises today was that you didn't mention finances and you didn't mention discrimination, which to me is really interesting and, and perhaps hopeful that they aren't the main things.
51:51
And there's so much more that you have told me about today.
51:55
Um.
51:56
I expected some of those, but not all of them, you know, so there was a lot of surprises in our conversation and I've, um, really, really enjoyed it.
52:03
So thank you and I've so much I.
52:07
Before we finish and wrap up, have you got one last message or call to action, or just something you'd like to say, so whichever, whichever of those you want to go for Slim.
52:17
Uh, yeah, I mean, I mean, if you don't mind, I'm gonna, I've said it quite a few, few times throughout, throughout today, but, uh, our key sign off message at the end of our podcast is we are humans before our professions.
52:29
So if you're going to be anything in this world, be kind and be human.
52:33
And I would say.
52:34
If you're gonna do anything in life, just be kind and be human.
52:37
You know, we all have our struggles wherever we're from, whatever cultural background we're from.
52:44
Just be human and understand that.
52:46
And, and don't be afraid to, to explore that.
52:49
If, you know, don't, don't be shy and, and ask, are you okay? And be that person to ask that question.
52:56
'cause a lot of the time people won't ask for the help.
52:59
But they'll wait to be offered to it.
53:00
But I think we are kind of conditioned to not necessarily go in and, and, and be that person to say, are you okay? Um, so, so yeah, just be kind and be human.
53:12
Thank you, Sam.
53:12
That is such a lovely note to end on.
53:15
I've really appreciated today, today's conversation, and I hope you've enjoyed it too.
53:18
Thank you so much for joining me.
53:20
Thank you for having me.
53:21
Honestly, it's been an absolute pleasure.
53:22
Thank you.
53:22
Okay, thank you so much.
53:26
I hope today's conversation gave you something to think about.
53:29
If it did, please share it with someone.
53:31
Ripples matter.
53:33
You can also follow the show so you don't miss future episodes, and if you have reflections or ideas, then please leave a rating or to support my work.
53:42
Head over to my link tree, which you can find in the show notes.
53:45
But for now, stay caring, stay connected.
53:48
Stay curious.
53:50
Thanks for listening.
53:53
Well, there was so much to think about in the episode, but I'm gonna just jump straight to that end bit that Sam's left us to think about, that we're human before our profession.
54:03
We're humans first.
54:05
So it's just about that care, that kindness, and seeing people for who they are.
54:10
So I, you enjoyed the episode Until next time.