Latest / The Advancing Healthcare Innovation Show / E178 | The Hospital Insider Truth Founders Never Hear | Frank Sawyer

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E178 | The Hospital Insider Truth Founders Never Hear | Frank Sawyer · The Advancing Healthcare Innovation Show

0:10
Hello and welcome back to the Advancing
0:12
Healthcare Innovation Show. I am your
0:15
host, Michael Stamatinos, and if you're
0:17
new to us, welcome. It's great to see
0:21
you here. Uh listen, we we've got to
0:23
some action-packed stuff that we're
0:24
doing. We're having some exciting
0:26
conversations with some real leaders
0:28
that are painstakingly reshaping the
0:30
future of health and healthcare and care
0:33
delivery. And we're we're pretty
0:35
passionate about a few different areas.
0:36
We're passionate about healthcare
0:37
innovation, leadership, access, the
0:40
adoption of that innovation. So, if it's
0:42
your first time tuning in, let me just
0:44
sort of take a a quick step back and
0:45
tell you a little bit more about what
0:47
we're trying to get done here. So, our
0:49
focus is on bringing real stories of
0:51
innovation and leadership to life. So
0:53
the aim is actually highlighting real
0:55
people that are actually getting stuff
0:57
done uh and giving them the opportunity
0:59
to share their story, share their wins,
1:01
share their learnings with our community
1:04
and ultimately with the world. And if
1:06
you haven't checked out any of the
1:07
historical interviews wherever you are,
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if you're watching this, if you're
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listening to this, please hit the
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subscribe button now so that any of the
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new interviews come directly to you. So
1:16
today's guest is Frank Sawyer. So Frank
1:19
isn't someone who studied healthcare
1:21
from the outside. He ran it. He spent
1:24
more than a decade inside of hospitals
1:25
and health systems, including serving as
1:27
a hospital CEO. That means that he lived
1:30
with the consequences of decisions, big
1:33
decisions. The budget pressure, the
1:36
physician dynamics, the board
1:37
expectations, the reality that every
1:40
great idea has to survive operations,
1:44
culture, and trust. So this experience
1:47
matters immensely. So because you know
1:50
when Frank talks about innovation and
1:52
growth or partnerships, he's not
1:55
guessing how a health system is going to
1:57
react. I mean he's been the one that's
2:00
responsible for making it work or
2:02
explaining why it couldn't. So what also
2:06
stands out to me is sort of his
2:08
personality and how he applies
2:09
leadership. So Frank's very open about
2:11
how he shows up um as a husband, as a
2:14
father, as a son, as a brother, and as a
2:16
friend. So those roles really sort of
2:19
shape how he leads, how he listens, and
2:22
it shows up and how he kind of brings
2:24
people together. So his style is deeply
2:26
collaborative. He believes that the best
2:27
outcomes come from breaking silos, from
2:30
respecting different disciplines and
2:32
creating space for real dialogue. So
2:35
this isn't about sort of selling the
2:37
room or posturing. Um it's it's really
2:40
about actually working through the hard
2:42
stuff together. So this conversation for
2:43
me is really about what healthcare
2:46
leaders see um that founders, you know,
2:50
maybe sometimes often miss or have or
2:53
have a certain set of assumptions that
2:55
aren't necessarily fully validated. So
2:57
we want to talk about why execution
2:58
breaks down, you know, why trust is
3:00
really the real constraint and and what
3:02
it takes to kind of bridge the gap
3:05
between good intentions and real impact.
3:08
So uh buckle up, stay tuned. Frank, it's
3:12
great to see you. Welcome to the show.
3:15
>> Yeah, Michael, excited to be here. Um,
3:18
been looking forward to this
3:20
conversation. We met down uh in Austin,
3:22
Texas at Healthcare Innovation Summit.
3:26
Hit it off quickly. Uh, when my wife and
3:28
I returned home, she's like, "You need
3:30
to connect with that guy and and figure
3:31
out how to partner up." So, like any
3:34
good husband, I took her advice and
3:36
we're we're doing this today. So, I look
3:38
forward to this.
3:38
>> Right on. Yeah, of course, man. uh happy
3:41
to do it. It's always good, you know,
3:42
serendipitously when you meet people in
3:44
the right ways, in the right context,
3:45
and you're aligned things uh things are
3:48
good for that. Look, most people, they
3:51
think hospital CEOs spend their days
3:53
making big decisions, which is true. But
3:56
what they don't see are the nights spent
4:00
carrying decisions that don't have clean
4:03
answers. Um so, Frank, I don't want to
4:06
sort of start out with what you've done.
4:08
I think I want to start out like what's
4:10
what's stayed with you? So, when you
4:13
think about some of the decisions that
4:14
you've made as a hospital CEO, like kind
4:17
of what followed on when you took a
4:19
decision, went home, sat with it at the
4:23
dinner table? Any any one of those
4:25
decisions kind of come to mind that
4:27
you're you're able to kind of speak
4:28
about? Yeah, I I love that as an intro
4:31
question and and just as a point of
4:32
clarification, I was a hospital chief
4:35
operating officer,
4:37
not a CEO, but was tasked with making
4:40
those hard decisions and implementing
4:42
those hard decisions um with with great
4:45
impact. Um you know really what you
4:48
grapple with is how to make decisions
4:51
with incomplete information. How to make
4:54
decisions where there is imperfect you
4:57
know information and there is no clean
5:00
answer. Um there is no playbook. You
5:03
know healthcare has so many intractable
5:05
problems that you know if there was a
5:09
way to do it you would just be doing it.
5:11
Um, and with every decision you're
5:13
burdened with the impact to people, be
5:16
it your workforce, be it patients, be it
5:21
the board, be it the community. And so
5:24
the stakes feel very high and none of
5:29
them are kind of loosey goosey
5:30
decisions. You know, when you're in
5:31
those executive seats, you have to
5:33
understand all the dynamics, all the
5:34
stakeholders, all the risk points and
5:38
get to the best answer you possibly can.
5:40
understanding it may work, it may not.
5:43
Um, and you have to have contingency
5:45
plans for any possible outcome that
5:48
could occur.
5:50
>> You know, when you're kind of sitting
5:51
with a lot of those decisions, does
5:52
anybody actually know how much pressure
5:56
you're truly under?
5:58
>> Yeah. In a in a word, no. um you know
6:02
your your peers do, but you know when
6:06
you're making a decision that is going
6:08
to impact one 2 3,000 employees
6:13
um that if it goes poorly, you know,
6:15
you'll end up in the media um under
6:19
scrutiny or you could cost the company
6:22
millions and millions and of dollars,
6:25
you know, and at the end of the day,
6:27
it's on you to make the recommendation,
6:30
sell it,
6:31
execute it, you know, and make sure it
6:34
works. Like there are a lot of nights
6:36
where you're up in the middle of the
6:37
night staring at the ceiling, you know,
6:40
thinking through it, wondering, you
6:42
know, how this is going to go and and
6:43
just trying to put your team and your
6:45
organization in a position to to make
6:47
the most of it.
6:49
>> You know, I think about being put in
6:50
pressure situations. Um, you take a lump
6:53
of coal and you apply a pressure on it,
6:55
it becomes a diamond. You kind of get
6:57
hardened. curious, what what do you take
7:00
with you now when you're kind of trying
7:01
to process decisions, when you're in
7:03
pressure type situations? What are the
7:05
good things that you take with you when
7:07
you're trying to kind of go through like
7:09
a decision matrix? Can you describe how
7:12
you process situations, you know,
7:14
audibly so that the the so just someone
7:17
who's listening kind of gets a a glimpse
7:19
sort of your framework?
7:21
>> Yeah. First step is slow everything down
7:26
in your mind. Um, don't let the pressure
7:30
get to you. Talk to as many people as
7:34
you can. Leverage as many people and
7:36
relationships as you can, whether it's
7:38
in your organization, in your field, or
7:40
outside of your field. Uh, I like to
7:41
say, put as many smart people in a room
7:45
as you possibly can and gather as much
7:49
info as you can to make the best
7:51
possible decision. Uh, an axiom that I
7:54
have that, you know, I stole from, you
7:56
know, one of my favorite sports casters
7:58
is it's not about being right, it's
7:59
about getting it right. And so, as the
8:01
leader, you know, kind of humble
8:03
yourself to know it doesn't have to be
8:05
my idea, it doesn't have to be my way.
8:07
Let's get the best idea and the best way
8:10
and go with that and try to remove ego
8:14
and pride from from the process to get
8:17
to the right to get to the right
8:19
solution. Recognizing that's really hard
8:22
for people to do, particularly for
8:24
people in leadership who we all are
8:26
usually type A. We all have egos of some
8:28
sort. And there's a reflexive human
8:31
nature of if it's my neck out there, I
8:35
want it to be my call. But you've got to
8:37
back away from that. Be inclusive, you
8:40
know, draw out people's ideas because
8:43
countless times in my career, the right
8:45
answer came from left field that you
8:47
didn't expect where you didn't expect to
8:48
get it. And over time you learn
8:52
>> who's not talking, who's not
8:53
contributing, who am I not asking
8:56
because sometimes the quiet person in
8:58
the background knows exactly what should
9:01
be done. And then in the health care
9:02
setting, get as close to the bedside or
9:05
the front lines as you can and make sure
9:08
you're asking those people. I don't care
9:11
if it's the most junior housekeeper or
9:15
the O nurse or whomever. Like, don't
9:19
conceive of a plan without getting it to
9:22
the front lines first or someone on the
9:24
front lines who can vet it to make sure
9:26
that you've thought of everything.
9:29
>> There's a subtle difference, and you
9:31
mentioned it talking about being right
9:33
versus getting it right. There's a 2
9:36
millimeter difference there that is
9:38
massive. And what I have found, what you
9:41
shared is like look, the best leaders,
9:43
they they get to the right decision.
9:45
They get it through having
9:46
conversations. They ultimately take the
9:47
decision, but for them it's not about
9:49
necessarily always just being right.
9:50
It's about getting it right. And um just
9:53
everything going on. There's a lot of
9:55
noise in our space. Uh it seems to me
9:57
that there's more headlines around
10:00
leaders taking decisions to be right
10:01
versus getting it right. at the time
10:03
that we're having this conversation,
10:04
there's multiple uh nursing strikes that
10:08
are going on. How does that sit with you
10:10
as a former operator? What what does
10:12
that sort of stir up inside of you?
10:14
>> Yeah, so I was just in New York City uh
10:18
with a client a couple weeks ago walking
10:20
down the street. There's, you know,
10:23
nurses picketing because they had
10:24
literally just gone on strike in New
10:26
York City. Um, and some of the crowd on
10:29
the corner looked down the street and
10:30
asked, you know, what's going on down
10:32
there? And in true not New York fashion,
10:35
like I started talking to the stranger
10:36
next to me and I'm like, oh, it's a
10:37
nursing strike and here's what I know
10:39
about it. And multiple people as we're
10:41
waiting on the stoplight look over at me
10:43
like, well, we need nurses, so I hope
10:46
the administrators figure it out.
10:49
Whatever they want, we need them. And so
10:51
to your question, you've got a workforce
10:54
that we as a society need them more than
10:56
they need us. You know, they are the
10:59
thing that enables us to deliver care.
11:02
How do we take good care of them? I
11:06
don't think as an industry we've done a
11:07
good job in the post-pandemic world of
11:10
doing that. We pivoted after the
11:12
pandemic and never really leaned back
11:14
into our workforces, be it nurses or
11:16
other, and ask the questions, are you
11:18
okay? What do you need coming out of
11:21
that? What should we build moving
11:23
forward? We went from a place of supreme
11:27
exhaustion to now just run faster
11:30
because we have to innovate and repair
11:32
and recover the financial standing of
11:33
the organization. And I I would advise
11:35
all leaders um and and you have you you
11:38
have leaders and organizations that are
11:40
doing this, but slow down, lean into the
11:43
entirety of the workforce because
11:45
without them there is no care delivery.
11:49
uh there is no better health, there is
11:51
no outcomes, there are no outcomes that
11:53
we need uh to achieve within the
11:55
healthcare sector.
11:57
>> I just remembering now, you know, back
11:59
to our dinner we had in Austin, you were
12:02
sharing some pretty crazy stories about
12:04
that time about what you were doing. Um
12:08
do any of those kind of come to mind
12:09
when you think about the sheer
12:11
exhaustion that leaders are under now
12:12
and the sheer pressure that they're
12:14
under? Do you can you kind of go back to
12:16
that time, frame it up for us to kind of
12:18
talk about all right, here we are today,
12:22
but like a lot of these events are are
12:24
what sort of escalated it to that point
12:26
because now you're obviously sitting in
12:28
a different seat.
12:29
>> You're you're not you're not operating
12:31
anymore. Um maybe talk to the amount and
12:35
I don't know if it's just you, but I'm
12:36
seeing a lot of transitions like folks
12:38
that are just tired like, hey, I'm not
12:40
I'm not doing this anymore. I'm getting
12:41
out of the seat. I'm seeing this a lot
12:44
more
12:45
>> a lot.
12:45
>> And it's u it's kind of it's kind of
12:48
scary.
12:51
>> It is. It is. You know, when we go back
12:54
to 2020, uh what I think people on the
12:57
outside don't realize is how little
13:00
information we had, how little we
13:01
actually knew what we were doing because
13:02
there was no data, there was no science.
13:04
We were doing the best we could, winging
13:07
it on a literal dayto-day basis. um
13:10
whether it was supply chain,
13:11
infrastructure or patient care. And what
13:15
I was struck by was the ingenuity and
13:18
the ability to figure it out quickly and
13:21
in real time to provide better care and
13:26
to achieve the objective, the mission.
13:30
And when you think about healthcare,
13:32
it's a very slowmoving and stagnant
13:34
industry, but under the most pressure
13:37
the industry has ever been under, we
13:40
figured it out rapidly.
13:43
What for me led me to transition is I've
13:46
always been a, you know, forward
13:49
thinker. You know, I I I'm not change
13:51
averse at all. I'm probably a little too
13:54
risk tolerant um on the innovation
13:57
front. But we've now proved in real life
14:01
under the most pressure what is possible
14:03
from an innovation standpoint.
14:05
>> And then after the pandemic, too many of
14:07
the systems and processes snap back to
14:10
the old way of doing and thinking and
14:13
conservatism around risk and innovation.
14:16
And for those who could see what it
14:19
could be, who know from experience that
14:21
it needs to be better to be reshackled
14:26
to no or minimal innovation and let's go
14:29
very slow and conservative. It it
14:32
shifted things in in my mind and said,
14:35
you know what, maybe we can drive change
14:39
forward better from a different vantage
14:42
point, leveraging the expertise, the
14:44
relationships, the knowledge of what
14:45
needs to be done and what could be done
14:48
and help those who are focused on
14:50
innovation connect and do that better
14:52
from the outside in. H. So somebody
14:56
who's looking from the outside, looking
14:58
towards the inside. What behavior inside
15:00
of hospitals do outsiders criticize that
15:04
actually makes sense once you're
15:06
responsible for a lot of this sort of uh
15:08
these downside risks that you're taking
15:11
on?
15:12
>> Yeah. Um it it comes back to the
15:14
patient. So the decisions all terminate
15:19
in it could impact someone's health and
15:22
well-being or even their life. Right? So
15:25
the experiment that you want to run from
15:27
an innovation and technology side, if
15:29
I'm on the hospital side, if we screw
15:32
this up, we could, not saying we will,
15:35
but we could hurt people very very
15:38
badly, right?
15:39
>> And so it provides a certain level of of
15:42
hesitancy and rigor that is required uh
15:46
to move that forward. The second answer
15:49
I'll give you is there are so many
15:52
competing resources for dollars
15:55
politically inside a hospital that if an
16:00
executive is going to take a leap and
16:03
sponsor an innovation, well that
16:06
individual might be risking their
16:08
credibility, their job and thus their
16:11
livelihood.
16:13
um you know or at minimum their next
16:17
opportunity to try something else
16:19
because if you try something big and you
16:21
fail well you might not get another shot
16:23
and so there's systemic risk but there's
16:26
also personal risk to the executive
16:27
champion that I don't think folks fully
16:30
appreciate and then when you look at
16:32
scale across all the leaders of an
16:34
organization or an industry
16:37
you know it just isn't going to
16:39
necessarily move as fast as you might
16:41
think it should on the outside because
16:43
everyone is weighing those those risks
16:45
both for you know the system and
16:48
themselves all the time.
16:51
>> And you know when you think about the
16:53
seat that you're in now and you get to
16:55
kind of disrupt from the outside going
16:57
in,
16:58
>> what is the what's the filter that you
17:01
use to kind of decide what innovations
17:03
are worth actually bringing to
17:04
colleagues and peers? Where do you see
17:07
things that can be innovated and done
17:12
well where there's an asymmetrical, you
17:15
know, riskreward, small risk, big
17:18
reward? Where do you see that and what
17:20
what are some of the patterns that
17:22
you've been able to kind of pick up?
17:24
>> Yeah, absolutely. So, you know,
17:26
rewinding
17:28
being in the game on the inside for just
17:31
over 20 years, right? um and working my
17:34
way up from ground level up to seuite.
17:39
You know what's broken. You know what
17:41
the needs are. You know what strategies
17:45
and tactics work and don't work. And you
17:49
know how to stand things up
17:51
operationally,
17:52
you know, to make sure that they have
17:54
long-term success and aren't just a
17:57
brief experiment, right? Um, and so I
18:01
try to focus innovators from the outside
18:04
on, you know, that small subset of
18:06
things that really move the needle. Uh,
18:08
every hospital, and I've talked about
18:09
this before, every hospital cares deeply
18:12
about patient experience,
18:15
>> staff or colleague engagement and
18:17
experience,
18:18
their financials, so uh, grow new
18:21
revenue or decrease cost, and clinical
18:25
quality outcomes. And so focus on those
18:28
big bucket problems
18:31
in a way where you can demonstrate
18:35
outcomes whether it's whatever the
18:37
outcome measure is in those four
18:39
domains. If you approach a hospital with
18:41
I'm I want to solve or I think I can
18:43
solve this problem in one or more of
18:45
these, you know, one of these four
18:46
buckets or or all of these buckets,
18:49
you're immediately derisking, right?
18:52
Because when we're coming from an
18:54
industry standpoint, we're overwhelmed
18:57
with new things, new softwares, new
19:00
medical devices that promise the world,
19:04
but don't really move the needle in any
19:07
of those domains in any real measurable
19:09
sustainable way. So, we're a bit jaded.
19:11
We've been sold a lot over the years,
19:14
and so we're highly skeptical and been
19:15
burned. But if you can show in your
19:18
product or your solution
19:20
directly how we're going to impact one
19:22
of those four measures, you can get
19:24
folks to lean in because those are the
19:26
set those are the four problems that
19:27
they're laying up at night thinking
19:29
about. You know, how do we solve those?
19:31
Because they've never been able to be
19:33
sustainably solved before.
19:35
>> Yeah. To me, it's it's a you focus on
19:38
the things that aren't going to be
19:39
changing anytime soon. And I've written
19:41
about this. It's like, hey, look, last
19:42
time I checked,
19:44
>> a patient's going to want to get in to
19:45
be seen pretty quickly, whether it's
19:47
virtually, in person. That ain't
19:48
changing. A patient's going to want to
19:50
be treated nicely. They don't want to be
19:52
treated orally when they go in
19:54
somewhere. And then thirdly, clinicians,
19:57
they want to be working in top of
19:58
license, and they want to work at a
20:00
place where they feel valued and where
20:02
they feel like they're being respected.
20:04
>> And there's a lot of there's a lot of
20:05
opportunity for improvement in those in
20:08
those areas. And it's just it's
20:11
astounding to me that um you know folks
20:15
aren't trying to innovate in those
20:16
areas. They're just like hey let's do
20:18
this over here. This is kind of cool.
20:19
This is kind of shiny. And you're like
20:20
wait dude don't you know how the
20:22
hospital operates? We do this this this
20:24
and this. It's like focus on that.
20:28
What other myths do innovators from the
20:32
outside get wrong about you know a
20:35
health system that you've observed over
20:37
the years?
20:39
Um I I think there's a big myth around
20:44
the financial structure of hospitals and
20:46
health systems. Um
20:49
they have money, they cash flow a lot of
20:52
money, but the margins are razor razor
20:56
thin. uh when you talk to industry
20:59
companies and you know our objective is
21:01
to make 15 20 25% margin like we're
21:06
hoping to make three to five in a good
21:09
year in this climate and
21:13
want to be above zero and so it costs so
21:16
much to run a hospital in totality it's
21:20
like running a city you know when you
21:22
think about it you've got all the same
21:23
parts and pieces of running a big city
21:25
that's what you're doing and So there's
21:27
not a lot left over, you know, at the
21:30
end of every month or every year. And so
21:33
like in someone's personal finances, if
21:35
you're on a really tight budget, you've
21:37
got to make really hard decisions and
21:40
you do want to put your dollars on the
21:42
things that going to be the most
21:43
impactful in this example to your family
21:45
or your well-being.
21:46
>> And if you're the hospital, it's to the
21:48
broader business of patient care in the
21:51
community. um because the overwhelming
21:54
majority of health systems don't have
21:57
deep pockets where they can just throw
21:59
tens of millions of dollars around.
22:01
There are some that do, but 95% of them
22:06
are in that tight household budget
22:09
situation. And so if you have a great
22:11
idea, you've got to thread that needle
22:13
so that you can be, you know, one of
22:16
those dollars that does get spent on
22:18
something new and creative.
22:20
>> Were you always innovative? Were you
22:21
always someone that that that kind of
22:23
embraced
22:25
the risk on things? Because just
22:28
presuming as you climbed the ladder, I'm
22:30
curious if that was sort of what what
22:32
stood out to you or what others saw
22:34
stood out to you about like, hey, you
22:36
were willing to to innovate.
22:39
>> Yeah. I I think it's uh as I've gotten
22:41
older, I've accepted it's just how I'm
22:44
wired. Um, from the earliest days of my
22:46
career, I looked at like how do we make
22:48
this thing run better, smarter, faster
22:51
so we can do more good. Um, you talk to
22:55
uh, you know, my teams, you know, that I
22:58
that I worked with, you know, I had this
23:00
phrase, uh,
23:02
>> if you want me to never leave you alone,
23:06
tell me this is how it's always been
23:07
done. Like that was a phrase that I
23:10
would just latch on to, you know, like a
23:13
dog with a bone because I'm like, if
23:14
it's always been that way, then that
23:16
probably means it needs to change. And
23:18
the why behind that is if everything in
23:20
our world is changing at a ever more
23:23
rapid pace, why would we think that's
23:26
fine just to stay where it is? Exactly.
23:29
If you're not changing, if you're not
23:30
going forward, you're going backwards,
23:32
you know? And so over time I realized
23:35
I'm just wired to look at things in a
23:37
constant like how do we make that
23:40
better, more enjoyable, more effective,
23:42
more efficient. It's a gift and a curse.
23:44
Um I'm sure crazy because I'm always
23:47
trying to like tweak and make something
23:49
better. But
23:50
>> within the healthcare sector, I think
23:51
it's needed.
23:52
>> Yeah. I mean, listen, you're basically
23:54
an engineer. You look at processes and
23:56
you just see where they're broken and
23:58
then you just want to make improvements.
23:59
I mean, that's human- centered design in
24:01
a in a sense. and you're now doing it at
24:03
a much much much greater scale. Where
24:07
from a from like a transformation
24:09
standpoint, where where are the
24:10
bottlenecks that health systems, you
24:13
know, have today and what are some
24:16
things that you think they can do to
24:17
kind of break through some of those
24:18
bottlenecks?
24:20
>> Yeah. Um,
24:22
I look when I look at our health system,
24:24
um, I think how we move patients through
24:28
our physical and digital assets. um is a
24:32
giant opportunity. Um
24:34
>> we have enough beds, we have enough
24:36
spaces, we have enough uh offices,
24:41
but we don't have enough if our mindset
24:43
is cramm everybody through bricks and
24:45
mortars. And it's why hospitals keep
24:47
building building, which is ironic
24:50
because we don't have the money to keep
24:52
building and building and building and
24:55
then still service the debt that comes
24:57
with the financing of the constant
24:58
construction. uh if we leverage
25:02
technologies you know through various
25:04
virtual and tele medicine capabilities
25:07
so that folks who don't need to be
25:09
physically present can get exactly what
25:11
they need how they want it remotely so
25:15
that our physical infrastructure our
25:16
heart infrastructure is reserved for
25:18
people who absolutely need it and we can
25:20
help uh the society transition to that
25:23
sort of model I think that unlocks giant
25:27
opportunity and solves that access
25:30
bottleneck. I I know there are naysayers
25:33
out there, but what I will counter with
25:37
is we've done this in every other
25:39
industry. You know, I was a late adopter
25:41
to Amazon Prime and Amazon delivery, but
25:44
you know what? I don't need to go to
25:46
bricks and mortar stores 90% of the
25:49
time. um you know various services that
25:52
you can now get
25:55
digitally through bots without having to
25:57
interact with you know uh booking a
25:59
plane ticket as an example. So in almost
26:02
every other aspect of our life the
26:04
industries have figured out how to
26:05
provide an experience that delights the
26:07
customer and simplifies their life and
26:10
preserves bricks and mortar resources
26:12
for that which is required.
26:16
But healthcare has not yet fully leaned
26:18
into that. And I can tell you as someone
26:21
who's done, you know, virtual, you know,
26:24
care for myself or my family, um, in 90%
26:29
of instances, I love it and it's far
26:32
superior. If I do need bricks and
26:34
mortar, that person on the other end can
26:35
always triage me to where I need to go
26:38
without having to have that wasted trip,
26:41
>> you know? And you know now in our family
26:44
like that is the first move right you
26:46
know and so the opportunity is there but
26:49
we've got to present it in a way where
26:51
society leans in and chooses it and not
26:55
let our fear from the inside industry
26:57
side say oh we can't do that because dot
26:59
dot dot. Well, is that more of uh
27:02
leaders now coming into more influential
27:04
roles within a health system that aren't
27:07
necessarily
27:10
techsavvy. Rather, they're more
27:13
they're more tech dependent. They grew
27:15
up with a smartphone
27:17
>> and they view innovation now as like
27:20
it's not nice to have anymore. This is
27:22
like a mustave. Do you see that
27:25
happening now where they start to
27:27
embrace this type where it's not just
27:30
traditional like hey we have this
27:32
building we have these rooms we must
27:34
fill these rooms but now they're
27:37
thinking like you said they've got these
27:38
digital assets like wait we've got these
27:40
rooms we've got these digital rooms that
27:42
we must fill. I mean, fundamentally,
27:44
that's kind of a big shift. And that's I
27:47
think it just takes someone that is more
27:48
tech dependent.
27:50
>> At least this is this is my my thesis
27:54
>> because we're starting to see more and
27:55
more go down that road. Um and there
27:58
might be a a point in time where
28:00
>> quite frankly, you know, there these
28:02
there are virtual towers that are filled
28:04
as opposed to physical towers.
28:07
>> Yeah. Yeah. the the optimist in me says
28:10
that is the uh inevitable
28:13
you know destination that we get to as
28:16
healthcare leaders live more you know
28:18
tech infused lives it's only it's only a
28:21
matter of time until they bring that to
28:23
their profession I I think
28:26
>> battling entrenched ways of thinking and
28:29
incentive structures that are still
28:30
pulling towards the old way will be the
28:33
challenge um but I do think more and
28:36
more leaders
28:38
are not just having the realization but
28:39
are are starting to figure out how to
28:42
have the courage to push for those big
28:45
leaps forward um at risk you know
28:50
accepting the risk that that might
28:51
entail you know and part of one of the
28:53
challenges I see from the the healthcare
28:55
leader field is
28:58
it is safe to not take risks right um
29:02
you don't read about healthcare leaders
29:05
losing their jobs because they didn't
29:07
hit a metric or they didn't perform and
29:09
achieve the goals. Right?
29:11
>> And we're approaching a world where
29:13
you're going to have to infuse
29:14
technology to meet goals. Um so in that
29:17
bridge time period, and I'm not
29:18
advocating for, you know, healthcare
29:20
leaders who don't achieve what they need
29:22
to achieve to, you know, you've got to
29:24
get fired, but I do think we're going to
29:26
have to realign incentive structures to
29:29
take us to the future world rather than
29:32
rewarding playing it safe and and
29:34
sticking with the old rules.
29:37
That's interesting. That's pretty
29:39
fascinating. Now, when you're in some of
29:40
those meetings, you know, behind closed
29:43
doors that uh I'll just say transformers
29:46
and innovators from the outside are
29:49
likely they're never going to get
29:51
invited into that room. Okay? They're
29:53
not going to be in those rooms.
29:55
Who inside
29:57
of that room has influence
30:02
>> more influence than their titles are
30:04
actually suggesting
30:06
>> and why do people listen to them inside
30:10
of that room?
30:11
>> Yeah. So first half of that question is
30:15
I don't know that innovators from the
30:17
outside fully appreciate how many
30:19
stakeholders
30:21
have equal power and equal say. Um, it's
30:24
a little bit like Congress where you've
30:28
got to whip a whole lot of votes and
30:30
keep them in line to get anything done.
30:33
No one person in that room typically has
30:36
the entire say. And I see folks from the
30:38
outside think if we just get this one
30:40
person that has the right juice or the
30:41
right title, they'll push this through.
30:44
Not how it works. You've got the finance
30:46
leader, you've got the IT leader, you've
30:48
got legal and compliance, and you've
30:51
got, you know, your your CEO or your COO
30:53
or your CNO or your CMO, depending on
30:55
what the topic is, right?
30:58
>> Um the the the
31:01
sneaky powerful
31:04
role in the room is the IT executive,
31:07
right?
31:08
um that
31:11
can stomp out the best idea,
31:14
can not overrule but you know
31:18
shortcircuit unplug even what the CEO
31:22
wants because the undergurting of the
31:25
organization that central line of the
31:27
organization is the IT infrastructure
31:29
and if they're not on board you know
31:31
you're not moving forward and so you
31:34
know engaging and cultivating
31:36
that role I think is massive. Um,
31:39
getting the finance the finance
31:41
executive on board early given that a
31:44
lot of solutions cost a lot of money and
31:47
making sure they believe in the ROI
31:49
financially. That's another key one. I
31:52
found that CEO, COOs, chief nurses and
31:55
chief medical officers like those are
31:57
the easy ones because they possess the
32:00
problem that you're trying to solve and
32:02
of course they want to solve said
32:03
problem, right? It's those other two
32:06
columns that are farther removed but are
32:09
absolutely critical to getting anything
32:12
off the ground that I think I would
32:14
encourage all innovations coming from
32:16
the outside cultivate that relationship
32:18
and understanding much more than is
32:21
currently done.
32:23
>> You know external innovators are under a
32:25
lot of pressure
32:26
>> and sometimes they've got a shorter
32:28
runway.
32:29
>> Yes. where um
32:33
the long game matters. You know, they
32:35
want to know that when you're taking a
32:36
decision and and hold me to this, but
32:38
like when you were taking a decision,
32:40
how much of that decision was factored
32:41
in is like is this company funded? Is
32:44
this company be going to be around in
32:46
three years from now?
32:47
>> Like how long term were you thinking?
32:50
And how much does that weigh when you're
32:53
deciding whether or not to take a bet on
32:57
someone or an an organization?
32:59
>> That that right there is a massive
33:03
consideration, right? Um and the
33:06
timelines of the hospital side and the
33:10
timelines of the innovation side are
33:12
vastly misaligned. You know, one thing
33:15
I've enjoyed about working on the the
33:16
tech side is they're like they all know
33:19
their cash on hand, their burn rate, how
33:23
much time they have until that clock
33:25
hits zero and their company is out of
33:28
business. And so the urgency that they
33:31
move with, I love on the hospital side,
33:35
it's completely flipped and they are
33:38
they want to go slowly. And so there is
33:42
a challenge there where I think we've
33:44
got to figure out how to meet in the
33:45
middle um you know because of just the
33:48
natural real life pressures that those
33:51
founders and innovators have uh in terms
33:53
of
33:55
the the length of time or or the
33:57
lifespan of the innovation companies. Um
33:59
that is a consideration on the hospital
34:01
side. You know there are times when I
34:03
want to prove a concept. I want to do
34:05
the experiment to demonstrate that this
34:08
new way of thinking or doing is viable,
34:11
you know, more so than I have to find
34:12
the right solution for forever and ever
34:14
right now. In those instances, those
34:16
companies that
34:17
>> don't have a long, you know, lifespan
34:21
pre-built in are fine. If I'm trying to
34:24
find, you know, my one forever solution
34:26
for this problem,
34:27
>> I absolutely need to know that you're
34:29
going to be here in three or five or 10
34:32
years. And if you know, one thing I look
34:35
for is what are the goals of your
34:38
company? Like if your startup, you're
34:40
looking to build it just big enough to
34:41
flip it and sell it to someone else,
34:44
you're probably not the right partner
34:45
for a large health system because then
34:48
all that work goes away because the
34:49
acquiring entity might not care about
34:52
the direction that you're on and now
34:53
we've done all this for nothing. And so
34:56
it gets back to, you know, understanding
34:58
what's the problem we're trying to solve
34:59
it and what's the right solution and
35:01
what's the right partner. there there
35:03
are lanes for them both but
35:05
understanding
35:07
that due diligence on the front side is
35:09
important and I don't know that a lot of
35:11
hospital executives are adept at
35:13
understanding what type of innovation
35:15
company is this and where do they fit
35:18
into that longer term or shorter term
35:20
plan
35:22
>> yeah look one thing that I've seen it's
35:23
like they all got nice decks they got
35:25
nice decks and they certainly try to
35:26
present a good clear story and um
35:30
you know a lot of that hinges on like
35:33
what channel does it come through?
35:35
>> You as a former operator, I'm just sort
35:37
of curious how much of that weighed into
35:41
your decision, which doorway it came
35:43
through. Does that does that go a long
35:46
way for you?
35:47
>> Um,
35:49
less so because I know that those people
35:52
are just trying to get in the door any
35:54
way they can. Um, where I focused on is
35:59
are they solving the right and a
36:01
meaningful problem
36:04
>> and then making sure you get the people
36:06
that are most invested in that problem
36:08
to the table. And so I've I've worked
36:10
with clients where we've got, you know,
36:12
this seauer well that's great. They're
36:14
your intro. You know, they're they got
36:16
you in the door, but they can't carry it
36:18
anywhere because that's not their
36:20
domain.
36:21
Make sure that in your next meeting,
36:23
this is who you need at the table for
36:25
this topic. This is how the decision
36:27
will get made. This is how it's going to
36:29
spread out through the organization. You
36:31
know, pulling people in early is always
36:33
better than late.
36:36
>> Curious, are there uh are there any
36:37
parts of the uh of the job, you know,
36:39
historical job that you miss that kind
36:42
of surprises you that you miss?
36:44
>> Um Oh, yeah. Absolutely. There's a lot I
36:47
don't miss, but um the people uh the
36:52
human connection. Uh what I loved about
36:55
a hospital is just the diversity of
36:57
intellects and backgrounds in the
37:00
professional field. You've got doctors,
37:02
nurses, pharmacists, engineers,
37:04
architects, physicists, you know, all
37:07
the trades, you know, and so many more.
37:10
And so just the different people and
37:12
personality types and lenses that you
37:14
could interface with every single day
37:17
was hugely additive to me not just as a
37:19
professional but as a person.
37:21
>> Um the second thing I will say is the
37:25
care delivery environment is the best
37:27
learning lab for perspective
37:30
>> and resilience. You see people having
37:32
the best day of their life. You have
37:34
people see see people having the worst
37:35
day of their life and everything in
37:37
between. And it helps you stay centered,
37:41
grounded, and count your blessings on a
37:42
day-to-day basis because
37:44
>> absolutely
37:44
>> you can always see people like my worst
37:47
day is still 100 times better than the
37:49
day that person is having right now. And
37:51
to be able to go home with that every
37:52
day and just thank the good Lord for
37:55
what you did, what you do have uh was a
37:59
gift every day for that 20 years.
38:03
what is uh I guess kind of share with
38:05
the audience like what's the best way
38:07
people can kind of follow your work. I
38:09
mean you obviously been super active um
38:12
give us a little bit of a commercial and
38:13
then we'll kind of try to move on
38:15
towards wrapping up here.
38:17
>> Yeah, absolutely and thank you for that
38:19
question. So um this summer I I departed
38:23
the the hospital and health system
38:25
landscape and started my own company
38:27
called Health Forward. Can be found at
38:29
healthforward.io IO and it's all about
38:31
helping innovators uh those that are
38:34
innovating for and aspiring to sell into
38:36
hospitals and systems uh figure out how
38:39
to do just that better and faster. Uh I
38:43
focus on those who are trying to drive
38:45
meaningful measurable change in those
38:48
domains that I described um with
38:50
particular topics and causes that I'm
38:53
most passionate about. So whether it's
38:55
pediatrics or behavioral health or
38:57
surgery or emergency medicine or just
39:00
hospital operations in general, you
39:02
know, I I support organizations that are
39:04
trying to do big meaningful things to
39:06
help patients, hospital workers, our
39:10
broader communities. Um I'm getting
39:12
ready to to do a more public launch, you
39:16
know, so follow me on LinkedIn, you
39:18
know, Frank Sawyer, look for look for
39:20
this face. uh go to my website and and
39:22
some other content items moving forward.
39:25
But you know, if you are on the health
39:27
tech innovation side and you're trying
39:29
to figure out, you know, go pre-go
39:32
market strategies, go to market work,
39:35
how to navigate the complexity that are
39:37
hospitals and health systems. And if
39:39
you've traveled that journey and are
39:40
ready to stand something up and
39:42
operationalize it, I'm your guy. If
39:45
you're a busy health system or hospital
39:47
exec who wants to know what's coming,
39:50
what's out there, what's the best way to
39:52
solve this problem that I have, I've
39:54
immersed myself in all things health
39:57
tech and have a great lens in terms of
40:01
companies and products that could solve
40:04
their day-to-day lives. and and if you
40:06
just want to talk about it and and kind
40:08
of brainstorm and you know what's
40:11
coming, where do we need to go on either
40:13
side of the fence, I love having those
40:15
conversations, meeting folks and and
40:17
learning about people's different
40:18
worldviews as they try to conquer this
40:20
giant problem.
40:22
>> Yeah, I think it's uh it's a team sport.
40:26
You got to have people that that want
40:27
that want to dance. And um I guess I
40:30
would say if there's knowing what you
40:32
know now, right? If you if you could
40:34
speak to your younger self,
40:37
>> is there any bits of advice that you
40:39
would leave with your younger emerging
40:42
Frank as you were climbing up that
40:44
ladder? What what would you share with
40:45
that younger Frank?
40:47
>> Yeah, and you just hit on it. Um it's a
40:51
people business. Um there's a lot of
40:54
tech, there are a lot of aspects to it,
40:57
but at the end of the day, it's about
40:59
the human relationships, solving
41:01
problems, getting the most out of every
41:04
critical role that is involved. Um and
41:09
you know, understand, listen to, and
41:11
wrap your arms around all those groups.
41:14
You know, one thing we learned in the
41:16
pandemic was
41:18
>> we had this this pesky little phrase
41:19
called essential workers. Even within
41:22
healthcare, what is essential and what
41:24
is not? Well, you know what we learned?
41:26
All of it is essential. You can't do
41:28
hospital without food services. You
41:30
can't do hospitals without lab workers
41:32
or housekeepers. Obviously, you can't do
41:34
without nurses and doctors. But it's an
41:37
ecosystem where you need every single
41:40
role we have. And as a leader, your job
41:44
is the whole team and making sure all
41:47
the parts and pieces work together to
41:48
drive that outcome. And so, you know,
41:52
20some year old Frank, that's that's
41:54
what I would say. You know, immerse
41:56
yourself in all the roles,
41:58
personalities, professions, because
41:59
there's going to come a day where you
42:01
need every single one of them um to get
42:04
to where you want to go for the
42:05
hospital.
42:07
>> Yeah. You're basically just saying like,
42:08
look, sometimes we got blinders on.
42:11
>> Let's take the let's take the blinders
42:12
off a little bit. And um
42:16
it could even be said as a as innovators
42:18
as innovators sometimes you're so
42:20
fixated on that problem and you're like
42:21
well this is the problem meanwhile does
42:24
that problem really land on the
42:26
prioritization person that really is
42:30
going to deploy it and if it doesn't
42:34
the market's telling you something
42:35
there's a signal there
42:37
>> so that this has been a really
42:39
enlightening conversation prank because
42:41
as you know someone who sat in the seat
42:44
you're basically kind of giving a road
42:45
map and you've been very gracious around
42:48
sharing a lot of those insights and my
42:49
hope is that if you're listening to this
42:52
probably going to have to listen to it a
42:53
few different times if if if you're
42:55
really trying to move into a health
42:56
system this this one is for you. Uh
42:59
because at the end of the day it starts
43:01
with an awareness of things. And by the
43:04
way, if if there is a topic, if you're
43:06
listening to this, if there's a topic
43:08
that you want us to explore or a leader
43:10
that you want to hear from, uh, drop us
43:12
a note, let us know. Comment, like it,
43:14
share it. And if you found this
43:17
conversation to be really helpful, then
43:20
the best thing to do would be to share
43:23
it and and to share it with your
43:25
community and share with your network.
43:27
This platform, it's not just about
43:29
content. It's it's about community. And
43:31
healthcare is a team sport. So even if
43:34
it's not serving you directly,
43:37
serve those around you. So thanks for
43:40
listening. Keep building with purpose
43:42
and we'll see you next time on the
43:44
Advancing Health Innovation Show. Thanks
43:46
for joining, Frank.
43:47
>> All right. Thank you, Michael.