Latest / Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement / #026-"No Way He Was Getting Out Of Our County"

Transcript

#026-"No Way He Was Getting Out Of Our County" · Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Killed five people in Centerville today, a family of five.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: But our thought process in mind was no way, no way does this dude get through Metascossa County where he can kill somebody else.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: For a little bit, he did a short little pursuit where he tried to evade those officers.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Three of my guys engaged, three of my officers.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_06: Tyler Owen.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_06: We have two cool guests on with uh a story that off camera we just realized was one year ago this afternoon.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_06: I guess it was this evening tonight.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_06: It would be one year ago tonight.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_06: Um have Sheriff Sowards from Adasosa County and Chief Eric Kaiser, the police chief at Jordenton PD.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_06: And um gonna build up and talk a little bit, and then we'll we'll kind of uh manifest into a shootout or a gunfight that happened last year that probably nobody knows what we're talking about at the moment, but when we get into details of it, everybody will know because it was all over Texas News around the clock.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_06: Um what's up, Tio?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_08: Oh man, not much.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_08: Do you want my truck back and getting moved down to Austin?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_08: The craziness.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_06: And you're not moving to Austin, you're moving outside of Austin.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, south of Austin, down towards these guys.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_08: God's country.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_08: God's country.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_08: That's right.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_08: That's right.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_06: Let's kick off.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_06: Uh Sheriff, tell us about who you are, where you grew up, and where you're born, what you raised, and how you got to where you are now.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was born and raised in Adascosa County.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um I got into law enforcement when I was 20 years old.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And uh started out dispatcher jailer job for the sheriff's office, and and before that I did about a year stint with Jordan Police Department as a reserve officer when I was 19.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um back then I I could uh I could go in the store and buy my pistol, but I had to get my dad to buy the ammunition.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: And uh fortunately for me, he he agreed to do that.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_08: Now hold on, sheriff.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_08: You have to for the for for the listeners out there, you gotta understand, and and I'm sure you have staff that are of that age.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_08: You have to explain.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_08: We have some listeners that are in the Dallas Fourth Metroplex, Houston.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_08: You have to explain the the jailer dispatcher, that's a combination job.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_08: So go ahead and explain and kind of paint that picture for the listener that's that's or watcher, excuse me.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: At that time in 1977, uh Sheriff's Office was in a three-story jail in Jertenton, which still stands today, and uh sheriff's office is on the bottom floor, the second floor was jail cells, and the third cell, the third floor was was the jail cells.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so you ran the you ran the console, radio console on the first floor, and then if there was a problem upstairs, you you checked away from the radio and got in the elevator and went upstairs and took care of the problem, brought the inmates down, fingerprinted them, whatever had to be done, released them.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and if you worked the evening and night shift, then you didn't have any help.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was you doing it.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: One person ran the building, dispatch, jail, intake.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's awesome.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's all it was one person running it.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: And uh if of course if it was during the day, during the week, there was somebody around, but at uh at night it could be a very lonely place.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, but you know, you got used to it and you took care of took care of things.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: The only thing is sometimes you were away from the phone and the radio three or four minutes before you could get back downstairs and and uh sometimes you got back there, there was stuff waiting for you that you had to take care of.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_06: Was there something that got you at twenty years of age?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_06: Do you have family in law enforcement, or was there something that stuck out that got you involved?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my my brother mo uh Gary, he uh he ended up retiring as police chief in Pleasanton, but he'd gotten into law enforcement and it it got me really interested in it.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so I went to school in 1975 to law enforcement academy and and uh the rest was history after that.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_06: Very nice.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_06: A couple years in the jail and then went out on patrol, patrol deputy.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I went out on patrol.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh we didn't have a lot of patrol spots back then, and openings didn't come up very often.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I was commissioned deputy sheriff and and would ride with some of the other deputies, and finally an opening came up and and uh got out on patrol and did that for about uh five or six years and uh got promoted to to chief deputy at the age of twenty nine.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow and uh so I I served as chief deputy for twenty-six years for my boss, uh former sheriff Tommy Williams.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and all worked 36 years for him and uh went from uh jailerslash dispatcher to patrol deputy to assistant chief deputy to chief deputy to and I was the first investigator the sheriff's office ever had.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then went all the way up and then I ran for sheriff in 2012 and my boss retired.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: You've been sheriff since 12?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh since January 1st, 2013.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_06: Nice, nice, nice.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_06: Chief, where'd you grow up?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_06: I know you're a surfer, California.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_06: No, no, no, no.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: Other side of the country.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_06: I mean of Florida.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_06: Surfer, Florida.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh tell us about tell us about where you grew up, sir.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I grew up in Florida, uh, on the west coast of Florida, and uh ended up moving out to Texas in the 90s and I always always kind of had a passion for law enforcement in the back of my head.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I had a um an officer from San Antonio really encouraged me to pursue that.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so I went to the police academy at San Antonio College and um started at the bottom as a patrol officer and ended up being a sergeant and an investigator, and uh when the chief that hired me retired, I ended up uh assuming that role, and I've been in that role now for about 15 years.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: Was Jordenton your first department?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I was my very first commissioned job was at the Wilson County Sheriff's Office for a short time and and then to Jordenton.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: How long have you been at JPD?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: I just started my 22nd year.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: Dang wow.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: How long have you been, Chief?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: 15.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_06: Y'all been around a little bit.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_06: Y'all may figure this thing out.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, just a tad.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_06: He he's got a way to catch up with me.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, just a tad.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_06: A little bit.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_06: But for for listeners at Escosia County, you guys are south side, not far, but south side San Antonio, southwest side?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we we border Bear County on the south side, and so if you go through Bear County, San Antonio, we're the next county south.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_06: And what what our listeners may think, or when you look on a map, that's interesting, and I'm I was shocked by it, is you guys are somewhat rural.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_06: You butt up to Bear County, San Antonio, but y'all are in a predicament being dead between San Antonio, which is extremely busy, and the border, which I've heard there may be something that goes on at the border every once in a while.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_06: So you guys you guys stay extremely busy, even being a rural county with no high-rise buildings and and all of that, you guys stay slammed because you're the flow between those two crises.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly right.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and then then you mix in at uh an oil boom that's going on down there in that area and has since about 2011.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so you have that amount of traffic, then you have the border problems coming up and the smuggling of people that we're involved in almost daily, and then forever since I was a patrol deputy, over half of our problems came out of Bear County.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so yeah, we're we're right there sandwiched in between.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_08: Wow.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_08: Well, uh I guess y'all worked together for a long time.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_08: You being the chief deputy, I probably whenever y'all met.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_08: You went to work for Jordenton in what what year?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: I started in 2002.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the sheriff was a chief deputy at the time, and um it wasn't long after I was working there, we started interacting and became friends, and we both were leaders in the officers' association we had at the time.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: And just do a and in rural areas, as you know, if you you've worked at the sheriff's department in rural areas when you have limited manpower, the agencies tend to work better and closer than in the big metropolitan areas.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: So the sheriff's office and the PDs are always backing each other up and helping each other out with resources.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: So we we developed a friendship relatively quickly when I started.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, let's and let's talk about that.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_08: Let's talk about the benefits of that uh and and how closely y'all work together and and why that's so important and how that developed.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's on a daily basis that we work with Jordan and PD, being they're right there at the county seat where we are.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And interestingly enough, with with Chief Kaiser, uh when we first met, I I I didn't do any texting, and he sort of got me started on texting.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry about that, sorry about that.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so sort of hold that against him in a way, but no, it's it was probably a good thing.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: But uh we worked together good and we became friends when he was a patrol officer and I was chief deputy, and we started having coffee together in the mornings, and we talked about things and liked the same things, had the same kind of ideas, and it just grew from there.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_06: Well, and what I've always respected about not being in the large Metroplex police departments agencies areas, you guys figured out long before big agencies did the value of networking.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_06: Checking egos at the door to work together for a better common good.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_06: I retired from Garland PD, which butts up to Dallas.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_06: There was not a lot of interactions with surrounding agencies.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_06: We didn't work with the county, the county didn't work with the state, the state didn't work with you know any of the involved agencies, and you know, it was this is my lane, and you stay out of it, and everybody had their lane, and and it took years, and it and I'm not blaming any agency or any one person for that, but that was environment for years.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_06: And for probably multiple reasons that's changed, and federal agencies, state, local, county agencies work well together, but y'all had that figured out long before the the big cities, you know, the the through the metropolises of Travis County, Harris County, Barrett County, Dallas County.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_06: Y'all had that figured out long before then that we kind of need each other.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_06: And and there may be a time literally, I mean, just like what we're gonna talk about here shortly where we're all in this together, and there's probably a better and and that's one of the things I wish I'd been around more because literally we didn't not the first probably 10 years of my career, we didn't we didn't work with any other agencies.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_06: We we handle our own, and that's why everybody we handle our own stay in your lane.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_06: And yeah, I've always respected how everybody else is able to check their issues and and egos out the door and work together.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I think in rural areas, um part of that is out of necessity.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if a if a if a PD officer is on a traffic stop, a deputy might be the only guy within four or five miles or ten miles.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Forty.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Or if a deputy is a mile outside town, that PD officer might be the the only guy that can back him up at that time.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: So um it it's you know, it's really important that we're gonna be able to do that.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: Or a game warden or a trooper or whatever.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's no different than anywhere else.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna have personality conflicts, but at the end of the day, when it's time to go out and do work, um, you know, they're we're gonna take care of each other.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_08: Well, and what's unfortunate, and sheriff, I'm not I'm not speaking for you because obviously y'all have a really good relationship, but um and I'm not expecting you to comment on this, but you see it, I see it, we've all we see it across the state.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_08: Uh especially you see it with with within sheriff's elections.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_08: When things go bad and you see it with sheriffs, um they get egotistical, they demand and say, My God, you're not gonna bring up you know the prisoners in my jails, and that's where egos don't get checked at the door.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_08: Um and that's where relationships do get burned.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_08: And that's really in the rural areas where it where it gets confrontational.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_08: Uh I've seen it in East Texas, not in Marshall, but I mean north northeast.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_08: Uh and it's and it just it's just bad.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_08: It's just bad for business and it's bad for law enforcement, it's and it's bad for public safety.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_08: Um, but in rural areas, you do kind of see it more of a camaraderie.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_08: And I think it has to do with a lot, like in the in the in the metropolitan areas, I think it's because there's vast majority of the larger departments, your backups within two minutes.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_08: Just like you said, you're talking about a 40-mile backup.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, that's true.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_08: So I mean, you're it's you have to have that backup.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_08: It's it's it it's it's all 40 miles away.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you're you're exactly right, Tyler.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I I've seen a lot of that.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm not gonna say where I saw it.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I'm not I'm not asking that.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen a lot of it and actually a little bit of it in Atlascosa County way back in the day, and and I always thought that that was ridiculous.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and having a brother with the police department in Pleasanton, I think was an asset because I didn't understand that the the people not working together.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody should be working together and and and over the years it it it got better and better and better and better and and um I would have it no other way.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that's the way it should be.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because we're there we're there to not stroke our own ego.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: We're there to serve the public, that's right, and the and protect the citizens, and and if we can do it working together better than working by ourselves, then that's what we need to do.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_08: Well, and me and Clint had this conversation yesterday.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_08: When things are going good, when things are going absolutely great, they could always be better.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_08: Sure.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_08: And that's the reality of it.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_08: So but uh anyway, we we all know that that you guys work well together and had been for many, many, many, many years.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_08: And I think that's probably why it works so well, and thank God it didn't it didn't happen uh to end in a in a in a bad way the night that we're gonna talk about.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_08: Clint, if you want to kind of pick up on uh the events that took place that night.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: The breaking news now coming from Leon County, north of Madisonville.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: That is where we were told a Texas Department of Criminal Justice inmate escaped near Centerville after he stole a transportation bus.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Investigators say 46-year-old Gonzalo Lopez assaulted a correctional officer and then took the vehicle.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: He crashed it a short time later.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Authorities are searching for him now.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Lopez is serving a life sentence for capital murder out of Hidalgo County and attempted capital murder out of Webb County.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you have seen him or know anything, you are asked to call 911.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, so for our listeners, um, I can't believe it's been a year ago.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_06: We were talking off camera and he was texting me before and he said, Hey man, you did you hear about the prison escape several days or a week ago that killed the family?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_06: And I said, Yeah.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_06: Well, he sends me a picture of his rifle and his passenger floorboard, and I said, Or you have you been sent somewhere?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_06: And he goes, Well, he's headed our way.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_06: I'm being told he's headed our way.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_06: Um so it was a year ago today of the gunfight.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_06: Um about how long prior to that was his prison escape?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was 18 days, uh, if I remember correctly.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: About 17 or 18 days.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it had been going on with a a massive manhunt in Leon County around Centerville looking for him.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_06: So for our listeners, year ago, um guy escapes from prison.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_06: He's on the loose, as with any prison escape, nobody really knows immediately where he is, other than you start a an immediate search of the area, assuming he may be on foot.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_06: Uh how many days later did the Grizzly murders occur?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what and he escaped from a TDCJ bus.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: So they're going down the highway and he uh had uh either a manufactured uh handcuff key or had a handcuff key of some time uh type that he was able to get out.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh he worked he worked his way through uh a chain link fencing area in inside the the bus and the other prisoners made noise to to keep the guards from hearing it.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: He got out and attacked the guards and shanked one of them and and uh caused the bus to have a wreck and and um he escaped and then the murders happened exactly uh a year ago today.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_08: They were headed to a medical for uh procedure, were they not?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_08: Yes, they were.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: So the hi during that time he was on the run and they were looking for him, but the the murders happened the day that we ended up uh catching him that night.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_06: And so for 18 days was there was it revealed, was he just in the woods or just laying low, or was he uh was there somebody that helped with him abscond and hiding him out?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh to my knowledge they never had a track on him uh where he was.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: They were they were going over the areas, they had prison dogs uh out every day, half the night, and uh they they never had an idea where he was at.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: He was he was doing a a good job of uh staying on the on the run and keeping out of sight.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_06: And from Centerville, Leon County to you guys, help how far to give the listeners an idea, how far is that?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_06: Uh about four hours, maybe a little more.
• 18:08
  unknown: God Wow.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And from where he escaped to where the murders occurred, how far My understanding and and I'm not I may be off a little bit, but 15 or 20 miles.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_06: Okay.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_06: So Chief, when you reached out that day, um did you guys have some intelligence that he was en route to you guys or Yeah, so what was interesting was I was I was leaving work, headed home, and I I heard a little bit of radio chatter.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: I started getting uh some phone calls, and I noticed the sheriff was was actively talking to people.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: It was in the evening, so I knew something was going on.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: And um so when I when I talked to the sheriff and and his command staff, he said, Hey, we've got in information that this guy may be in the San Antonio area and headed down toward the valley uh where he could possibly get into Mexico, maybe get it to escape permanently.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, uh uh Ascosa County has Highway 37 that goes to Corpus, Highway 281 that goes through Pleasanton, keeps going south, and Highway 16, which goes through Jerdenton and keeps going down to the border.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: So he had multiple But at this time it wasn't like an act of pursuit.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_08: It was just intelligence that okay.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: So but we knew if if he was in San Antonio and he was gonna go to the valley, there's a very high likelihood he was gonna have to come through our county.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so the sheriff orchestrated uh getting different agencies on different highways so that whichever route he might take, there would be officers watching.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to touch on that?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh originally I'm I'm sitting at home and in my chair, and I I get a text message from an inspector with uh uh TDCJ uh office of inspector general.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he it's a group text that he sent out to me and and some other guys, and he said uh Gun Gonzalo Lopez, uh prison escapee back eighteen days ago, whenever it was, um killed five people in in Centerville today, a family of five, and we believe he's on the way to to the Rio Grande Valley.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I instantly had a a gut instinct, uh just a feeling that you know if he's in Centerville, Texas, where these murders happened.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Where he wants to go to the Rio Grande Valley, we're right in the middle.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: We got four highways that come through headed that way.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I just had this feeling.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: I I sent out an email to to my command staff and uh email uh to uh police chiefs and just gave them a heads up on it.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when my guys started getting email, they all started coming out.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_07: With no vehicle information, though, yeah, no, yeah.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: We did have a vehicle information, uh a white uh General Motors uh pickup truck that he uh was stolen from the victim of the murders.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we had that information.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: We even had a license plate number, but we didn't know where he was at.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I just had a feeling.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: I had this feeling.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it wasn't too long after that, 30 minutes, 45 minutes later, one of my CID guys says, Hey, uh he just got a call from the Marshall.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: They thanked the guys in San Antonio, and uh he might have reached out to somebody in San Antonio and the Marshals found out about it.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_08: TFO probably.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: So so at that time, uh so that time is like everybody was scrambling.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Before May, yeah, he might come through Adasco County.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: But now, yeah, he's he's gonna come through Adasco County.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: There was no doubt in anybody's mind.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we had to cover Interstate thirty five that goes from San Antonio to Laredo, Texas sixteen that goes from San Antonio down to to uh Real Grande City.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And in 281 that goes through Pleasanton on down to McCallan.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and then Interstate 37 goes from San Antonio to Carpus Christi.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we split up.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: We got guys from multiple agencies.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there was two police departments involved, or three maybe, and um sheriff's office, constables, uh Texas Ranger, DPS.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we just covered all those all those highways and and just started watching for that car, that pickup.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_06: We weren't laughing at you.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_06: Tyler was a TFO with the Marshalls Task Force, and when he hears TFO, who can No, they give me shit all the time.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_06: You can you can see him perk up and get excited.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_07: I was just shout out to all you TFOs out there.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah I'm still a brother.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Just want to make sure the listeners knew exactly what we were talking about, right?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, he's right.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: TFO Marshall Service doing that.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think that was about the time that the about the time we found out he was in in San Antonio and headed gonna probably head south is when you and me were chatting.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, because I was reaching out to Mark.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_08: So he so when all this was going on, there was another a group a group chat uh going on.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_08: We were trying to you know reach out to our contacts in that area, and then you had sent that text because we were trying to figure out what you know because we were wandering too, because we wanted to make sure our members down there we kind of had attorneys on standby.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_08: So anytime, so you for you listeners, watchers, lawyers, uh when something major like this happens, we also kind of get attorneys from our standpoint, from an association standpoint, we kind of want to get attorneys on standby too, of like, hey, just in case that this happens and we have members involved, sure, you know, kind of get that on standby.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_08: So we have a group thread uh for flood reps also, because it would God forbid if we have a member that gets injured uh or needs legal defense.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_08: So we had a we we were also being notified too of what's going on.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_06: When I knew he's not the chief to sit at home and when he sent me, I was like, Chief Kaiser's about to be in the shooting because he's not the type that's gonna go sit somewhere and hide and command from the radio, he's gonna be up.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it was really it was it worked out well that night for a number of reasons, but I just happened to be out and it excuse me, as we um as we were kind of formulating a a plan on the fly, um you know, we we started uh in my head I'm thinking who has spikes to stop this guy?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: Because DPS has them, not every car for cities have them or for the county.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: I had them in my vehicle and and as this thing started to develop, I started realizing I might be the only guy out here that has spikes.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: And which if you're trying to stop somebody like that is gonna be probably something you're gonna need to use.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: So um so it turns out after we get everybody set up, um a unit at the Bear Atascosa County line, and that vicinity spots a white truck that fits the description, and he calls dispatch with the license plate number, and sure enough, sure enough, yeah.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: We heard the license plate number and and the the dispatcher ran the return and it came back to the victim, which out of Conroe, I believe it was, and you know, of course, we knew that was it.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I hollered at him on the radio and I said, that's the truck we're looking for.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, do not light it up.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and we gave him sp and and it was um uh an animal control officer, a peace officer, and one of my deputies who was on that highway 16 near Bear County Line that intercepted it, and we gave him specific instructions, do not light it up, do not stop it.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And most of us were over on Interstate 37, about 10 miles, eight miles, eight to ten miles away.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: And they're so they're approaching Potet, and once they get to Potet, they're gonna go through, we had to give Poteet PD instructions, don't get involved, let them go through, and we're gonna get set up north of Jerdenton and try to keep them from going into the city of Jerdenton.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: But we had to we had to drive a hundred miles an hour plus to get over there and get set up in time.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we got there just with about two minutes to spare.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh So the the pursuing officers that that located the vehicle did a very good job of staying far back, keeping him in sight, but staying far enough back to not alert him that they were there.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: He never knew he was being followed.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: It was the sun had just gone down, it was dark, so all he probably saw was headlights behind him.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: And uh now knowing that I probably have the only set of spikes that are nearby, I raced back toward highway 16.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: And in my head, I was just really concerned I wasn't gonna get in be able to get in front of him.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: And um I I ended up getting over there.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um I could hear them calling out where they were at as they were driving down the highway.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually turned in front of them and and started racing away from them to try to create some distance so that I would have time to get out and get the spike set up.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: We um just just north of Jerdenton, you know, what so I don't know what other departments do.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: We we try if we're gonna spike somebody to try to do it away from a populated area.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we picked a spot, I picked a spot just north of town where I thought, well, if if we spike him here, he's probably not gonna make it into town.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um we deployed the spikes, we hit all four tires, and uh Was he lit up at that point?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: We he he still had not seen a red or blue light yet.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Let me say when when he says we deployed the spikes, Chief Kaiser deployed the spikes.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: He was by himself.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so we all he knows is he's driving in the dark and then he gets spiked.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: And we and we talked about this, I think, just yesterday.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_08: That's awesome.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, that would not be the ordinary procedure for spiking somebody.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but the tactical advantage of that's but based on the fact that he had killed five people, we we weren't getting give him any advantage.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: So uh ended up throwing the spikes, hit all four tires, and and I to this day believe that he he probably thought I just had a blowout.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so he drove a little further, a few hundred yards.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, after he hits the spikes, um the the patrol units that were behind him, they passed me, and I jumped back in my truck and and fall in into line.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Now I'm kind of toward the back of the line of police cars.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: And um he pulls over, he hesitates, and I think when he realized all the headlights behind him stopped too, then then he knew something was up.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it was at that point everybody turned on their lights, and um, and then he attempted and and for a little bit he did a short little pursuit where he tried to evade those officers.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: We were hoping he wasn't gonna try to go in there and you know, then you potentially could have a hostage situation.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: Who knows with a guy like this what you would end up with?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he he ended up driving around the truck stop.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how that truck kept going with four flat tires, but just rolling on rims.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, basically he's just he's just four completely flat tires.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_08: I want to hit on something just just for a second.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_08: You're the sheriff, you're the chief.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_08: You're how far out when all this takes place?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: When you initially get the call that the license plate is called out.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm on Interstate 37, about eight miles away, and Chief Kaiser is over there in that area.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: We were we were covering 37, so we had to we had to drive, like I said, drive like hell to get over there.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_08: And that's how that's what I want to touch on.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_08: So many times, and you've been there, and you've been there, we've we've all been there, where we've always second guessed that chain of command when decisions are made.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_08: And we've never really had an administrator really been on this podcast.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_08: I want you, because you probably drove a hundred and whatever miles an hour to get to this scene because you wanted to be there for your guys.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_08: One, how many how many of your people were involved at this point?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_08: Is my first question.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_08: And the second question to you, the sheriff.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_08: In so many words, I want you to describe what thought processes are going through your mind as the sheriff of this county, one the responsibilities and the amount of pressure because the reality is you're you are the chief.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_08: But all this is taking place in the county.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_08: And everybody's gonna look to you to make that decision.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_08: On the fly.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_08: On the fly.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_08: This is a huge deal that this is an escape of TDC.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_08: This man has just murdered five people.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_08: Everybody in law enforcement is gonna look at you for all these decisions, and that is a huge undertaking to take on.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_08: And no 22 years old, 20, it doesn't matter.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_08: That's a huge responsibility to take on.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_08: And I think that sometimes we in law enforcement really we look past that.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_08: And and I think now is really the opportunity for you as the sheriff to kind of explain what that thought process really looks like.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, to answer your first question, uh there was probably 10 or 12 of my officers out there initially, and then when when it was confirmed and we were following him, probably half a dozen more uh came out.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the thought process that night you know, like you said, yeah, the pressures there.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: I never thought about anything like that.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: I all I thought about this guy cannot get through Adasco County without being apprehended.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think everybody was thinking that that night, but no we didn't talk about it.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Later on we talked about it after the fact, but our thought process in mind was no way, no way does this dude get through Nascota County and then to the remote areas of South Texas where he can kill somebody else.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're gonna do whatever it takes to stop him.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the plan was to get over there, spike his truck, and hopefully keep him out of the city of Jerdenton.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: That didn't exactly work, he got into the north part of town.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: But everything else happened almost textbook, and uh it's fortunate, you know, sometimes a plan comes together and a whole bunch of other guys do their part and it makes you look good.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and it was no one man operation that night.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was uh multiple agencies, multiple officers who all knew like I said, we didn't talk about it, but we all knew no way does he get through us.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: No way.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: We were even told later that a state agency maybe crossed their mind to to tell us to let him go through and they were gonna follow him south.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: We never got that order, and it's a good thing we didn't because I would have told them, no way, Jose.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we ain't doing that.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_06: And uh so And that's the ugly part of sausage making that people don't always understand, consider, or want to consider is prison escape he killed five people.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_06: He may enter my county, he's not leaving my county.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_06: Exactly.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_06: He can surrender or prone out or whatever, or he can get out and force us into a gunfight, but the citizens wanted him stopped.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_06: There's a lot of victims out there and and you guys either consciously or subconsciously had a plan in place that he may arrive here, but he's not leaving.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_06: That's either in handcuffs or not.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly right, Clinton.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: My biggest fear that night was him getting to either like Chief alluded to, getting to a somebody where he could carjack him at that truck stop or getting to a house.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because if he got inside of a house with people in it, we were gonna have a murder.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: One of the citizens of our county was gonna get be a victim.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we knew that couldn't happen.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: We we had to do every single thing in our power to stop him.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: And we did, and unfortunately it it it worked out perfect.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: It it we stopped him.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we had we had people from every spectrum of law enforcement.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I mean I was out, the sheriff was out, our Texas Ranger that works in our county was was out right there in the middle of it.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then we had patrol deputies, patrol officers, all the way down to I had a patrol officer, it was her first night off FTO.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: It was her first night in a police car by herself.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow, and she'd been on duty for about two hours, and then this happens.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so she's calling me, you know, what do you want me to do?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm talking to her, and in my head, I'm thinking, I've got to give her instructions, knowing her capabilities, and she's a great officer.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um but brand new, nothing to base upon.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, and then we've got the sheriff and the rangers out here too.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: So you've got this wide array of experience and talent.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_08: You've got one day to 41 years.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_08: Exactly.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_08: Exactly.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_06: And do y'all have comms?
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, yes.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_06: Everybody can communicate during that episode on that's super important.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_06: The right hand doesn't know what the left hand's doing.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_08: And y'all dispatch through their accounting.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they the sheriff's office dispatches for us, so that that part wasn't a problem.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then plus we're talking on the phone to each other during that time as well, making phone calls.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: Texting.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that too.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, one thing to remember is y'all are all cops or been cops, and everybody listen to this.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Probably been a cop or knows a cop.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: But you want to be where you're most likely going to get into the action.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's human nature of being a police officer.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it took a lot of self-discipline that night to keep people over here on Interstate 35 and Lytle, or way over here on US 281.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he most likely won't come that way.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you don't know which way he's coming.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you had a a highway to guard and watch, and everybody had to do their part.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: Just like these guys on Highway 16.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: They're up there by themselves on the north part of the county, and lo and behold, truck comes by and it's it.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just human nature, you know, everybody wants to be, well, well, he's probably gonna come down 37.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's all go out 37.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: But no, no, and that that night everybody was covering a highway, and and that's important to uh for everybody to to realize their job.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like a perimeter, you know.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: You set up a perimeter and to keep somebody on their spot for two hours, three hours, four hours, because you got to maintain that perimeter.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's the same concept at night.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_06: Yep.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_06: Perimeter's not sexy, but perimeter is as important as any other piece of that of that puzzle.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: So he's spiked now.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: He's got four flat tires, he's he's cutting through a field, he's we're not sh obviously he didn't know where he was gonna go, and we didn't know where he was gonna go, but we knew we didn't want him to get around people.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um he was able to make it back to Highway 16 on his four flat tires.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, granted, at this point we're not going very fast, but we're still going.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: He uh one of the officers in the front reported that he's he was shooting at them and they ended up recovering a or or there was a bullet in a windshield of one of the pursuing officers.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um obviously a car with four flat tires is very hard to control.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so he did make it into the city limits, about one street into the city limits, and uh tried to make a turn and couldn't control a vehicle, hit a hit a utility pole, some more radic driving for a block or so and drainage ditch first.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_06: Did the intel you guys were provided with the vehicle description and the plate, did you guys have any intel of handgun, long gun, shotgun, what he may have with him?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: I believe they reported to us that there was some firearms stolen from the scene of the murder, that the that the uh family at that that was like a weekend cabin for them.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: And they had some they had some firearms there that were no longer there when they when they found the body, so they assumed that he took those guns, which he ended up.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he did.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: He had he had two uh I know of.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: And and we were told of an AR-style rifle, and that's the only description we had of the rifle.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Turned out to be an AR-22, but it was an AR-style rifle.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: And he was armed with a pistol that was also stolen from the victims.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: As a matter of fact, I think he had the the grandfather's wallet in his pocket.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: In his in his boot.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: Or in his boot, yeah.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: He I knew he had it on his person when he was caught.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_08: And just so we're clear, it was the grandfather and four grandsons.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: That is correct.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that he murdered earlier that day.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: So it you know, he made it.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: And in my head, before we found this vehicle, I thought, surely, somewhere between Centerville and San Antonio, somebody, you know, he he must have switched vehicles by now because somebody would have seen this truck if it's still driving.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: But he was still in it.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: And he um he ended up coming into town, he he shot at officers that were that were pursuing him, he ended up wrecking out when the vehicle wouldn't go anymore, and jumped out of his vehicle with the rifle and uh engaged officers at that point, and uh an officer was was able to get a shot that hit him, and he didn't make it very much farther after that.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um he went down, you know, the rest of it becomes a a scene for the Rangers to work, but EMS was called, but um it was over right there.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know about how far a shot the officer took?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh just wild thirty to forty yards, maybe.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow, yeah.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_06: Handgun or rifle.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: Rifle.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, he wrecked out into after he came out of the bar ditch and hit a pole on the right side of the road, he'd come up out of the um the bar ditch again.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's a drainage ditch, so it's pretty deep, crossed the road, bounced across the road and goes a into a fence and a pole on the other side of the road.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: So his his his truck is sort of up against his chain link fence.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: And uh there was so much switching because every time he would turn, you might be right behind him, which at one time I was pretty close, but then all the Switching was going around and he's driving around a truck stop.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I turned around and went to the truck stop because I thought he might come back in the middle of the truck stop.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: So the vehicles that ended up right behind him are close, you know, were mostly my units.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: And um uh three of my guys engaged, three of my officers and one other officer who works for the county, uh were the ones that that fired the shots.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you can uh he he went he was hit pretty quick.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: He went down, got back up, and didn't make it much farther than that.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh dropped his rifle when he went down.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so it I'm I'm gonna say it's probably about a 30-yard shot.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_06: Wow.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_06: Well that's that's gotta feel like a gorilla off y'all's back when you see it's him for sure.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_06: He's down.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_06: Minimal damage.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's we have five victims, but he didn't get mobile in a small confined area or in the community and and it turned into an active shooter scene and a that's gotta feel like that's uh where he where he ended he ended up dying, he was in a yard next to a chicken coop or dog pen.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: Those people were gone.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: And fortunately they were gone.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: But right next door, exactly next door, the direction he was running is a m is a mobile home, and the people were home.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: There's no doubt in my mind he'd have got in one of those houses, and if there was people in there, he would have taken a hostage and probably somebody would have got killed in that house.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's so when we we we stopped him, we probably prevented more acts of violence.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: No doubt.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: When somebody kills, you know, they they escape from prison, which they're in there for a violent crime already, and then they kill five innocent family members.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: They're not they're not rational.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_07: Oh no, not at all.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: Did he kill the prison guard?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: I I can't remember.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, the prison guard lived.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_08: Well, it was a horrible situation.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, to kill a grandfather and four of his grandkids on a fishing trip like that.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's it's can't unimaginable how tragic that was for the family of those people.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: I just I can't even begin to imagine that.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_06: Well but for y'all, they there could have been more victims, and uh you two and and the folks that work for you gave them some closure to end it.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_06: And unfortunately, the the coward got to die a death, and uh we're not paying for him to to live out a life with three hots and a cot.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_08: Nope, not at all.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_08: Well, recently you guys were recognized by the senator or the uh the senate and uh Lieutenant Dan Patrick uh there at the Capitol, uh which I think is pretty neat that our legislative body, you know, recognized you guys for those heroic actions that day.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was real special, you know, and uh to to get that recognition and and get a Senate resolution and have all the senators come up and shake your hand.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and then the Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick added that he was friends of the family of the the victims.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow, no kidding.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: They they lived in the same area and and so he Conroe was.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's a small world.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: And he knew him real well, had received a phone call earlier in the day about them being murdered.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it was special uh special to him to have us there and being that our group is the one that that stopped him.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: That is a small world.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, that's crazy.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was it it it is, it is a small world, and and he was the the lieutenant governor was very appreciative.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_06: And I I'm I'm proud that you guys got recognized for that, and you and the folks that that work with you.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_06: Because so often the media only wants to talk about the mistakes that are made when there's a million heroic good things that are done, whether it's stopping a murderer or getting out and playing with a couple of kids on the side of the road and tossing a football with them to engage the community.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_06: There's that goes on every day in our community, not gunfights and stopping a murderer like you did, but I'm glad you guys were recognized for it.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_06: Because the good has to be highlighted too, because that far outweighs the mistakes that are made from time to time.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_06: And I I'm thankful, and and as you guys said, y'all have had no blowback.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_06: The community was supportive, and it's easy to get behind when a murderer um who kills children gets killed.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_06: Uh that's an easy one to get behind, but I'm thankful that trolls and and other cowards haven't taken up.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, that that wasn't a problem, and and and I'm I've got so many emails and text messages from people and phone messages from people I didn't know.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_06: He wouldn't have got them if you hadn't showed him out of text.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't think about it that way.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: And uh hey, they just hey, I know the vic victims uh are we live in Centerville, we've been scared up to death for 18 days.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate what you did.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of those calls.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of those calls.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_06: If you'll do a home invasion and kill everybody inside, including children, that's a very real threat.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_06: I can see everybody in that community truly just being stricken to to leave home.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: Talking to the sheriff over there in Leon County, which I visited with him last July at the sheriff's conference, and and and it it was a it was a total nightmare of stress that he was under for that 18-day period where they were had an active manhunt going on for this guy.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_06: And Texas is a big state, but 18 days on the land is a long time to be concealed, hidden.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: I got a t I got a text message from that night from a prison guard who I coached in Little League and he said, Sheriff, did is he dead?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Yeah, he is.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Thank God.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, I've worked 18 days straight, 18 hour days, no time off.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: He said, I'm gonna get a day off now.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Golly.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: You've been running dogs for 18 days.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's wild.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_06: So uh uh you've how many years in law enforcement, sheriff?
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh total in law enforcement, uh with the little Jordan PD stint of uh 48-ish.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: 48.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_06: Wow you almost got this thing figured out.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I probably need a little bit more time and I'll have it down.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_06: How many more are you gonna do, sir?
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I don't know.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_06: That's awesome.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_06: The world could use some more leaders, like you two.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_06: I knew when the chief sent me a text, I was like, yeah, he's not gonna go hide and and lead from the radio, or he's gonna be out in front of this and he's a shit magnet.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_06: Um I text him, I was like, uh, Chief's about to be in a gunfight, I guarantee you, because he'll he'll be he'll be right there alongside his troops and folks like you two servant leaders who understand their roles and low egos and and you guys are we could use a whole lot more.
• 51:26
  unknown: Yep.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, everybody's got a different leadership style.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, and I I don't want to critique anybody's, but I think it's important that you, you know, uh a chief that I know in in Port of Ranzas, Scott Burroughs, he he told me one time, you know, we hear here people that lead from the front or people that lead from the rear.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: He said, I think the best style is to lead from the side.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: He said walk walk next to your guys.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: And when there's accolades to be had, you let them step forward and take them.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_02: And when people are slinging arrows at them, you step forward and take those for them.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: And um I think when as as we as we've seen this evolution of law enforcement or especially over the last ten years or so, um we're really gonna have to invest in our officers who are gonna be the next generation of leaders in law enforcement to make them understand the importance that it's it's not just getting the big office and it's not just getting brass on your collar.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um that that there's some important things that need to be instilled in them.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_02: And there are, those those people are out there, those officers and deputies that are gonna carry on when we're gone, they're out there.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: We just need to make sure we're developing them.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_06: Well, and it shocks me every day in the role that that Tyler and I are in.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_06: Well, I'll get a phone call from somebody in a leadership role, whether it's in a company or whether it's in a police agency, law enforcement agency.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_06: Well, my department's a wreck, and the guys are don't know what the hell they're doing, and they're this and they're that.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_06: And I'm thinking, well, that's a reflection on you.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_06: That's not that's not a reflection on them.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_06: I don't you need to maybe stop and record what you're saying and see you can re-listen to it, because if if if everything's helter-skelter, it's probably not their fault.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_06: You might you might look in the mirror and realize you're the one that maybe caused it, or allowing it, or taught it, or empowered it.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Tolerated it.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_06: That's right.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and not and it wasn't just Chief Kaiser and myself out there.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the give credit the the police chief from Pleasanton, Ronald Sanchez.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: He was right there.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he got there 30 seconds after the shooting stopped.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: So he was, you know, nobody was was doing this from the house.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we were all all right there in the middle of it.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I was surprised at the sheriff's conference last July.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: They they gave me and the sheriff from Leon County uh a Texas Lawman award that they give out every year.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I of course I was proud to get it, but like I told him, I'm getting this for me and and 25 other officers that were out there.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this was not me doing this, it was this was us doing it.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's a real important for and I told all my guys and I handed out 14 commendations after that incident that night.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: And because I know I couldn't have done all that by myself.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it it took a bunch of dedicated law enforcement officers to get it done, and and we got it done.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: Outstanding.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_08: Y'all got anything else?
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's a story.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's how that's how it happened.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um you know, we're we're glad we're glad that that family didn't have to go through any more trauma than beyond what is unimaginable, losing five family members in the same day.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um so the the correct outcome occurred, and um, and then we're just real we're glad that nobody in our jurisdictions had to become a victim because of one violent person's rage.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_06: Yep, I agree.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_06: Chief Kaisers, that's the story.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_06: First thing that pops in my head is Paul Harvey.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, now you know the rest of the story.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yes, you do.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_06: Tyler won't get that.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_06: You know who Paul Harvey is?
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_08: I don't I can't pronounce this county.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_06: These three know who Paul Harvey is.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_06: And I wish I was as young as you are.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_06: The rest of the story.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_06: Well, when you said 1975, you began.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_06: I was thinking, Tyler, don't tell him where you were at in 1975.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_06: I was a I was a thought.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_08: I was a thought.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_08: Well, Sheriff, uh, we end uh this this uh podcast.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_08: Chief Cogger knows how we end it, sadly, because he was uh uh this is his second time being on.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_02: We're not gonna be it's the first time people actually see me on, though.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, this is your first debut, but this is your second time being on.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_08: He was the uh victim of the uh the storm.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_08: Um thank you for coming back, by the way.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_08: We'll have to we'll have to do a second round here in the next couple months.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_06: We need to.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_08: But we actually end the uh podcast with uh three questions.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_08: Rapid fire.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_08: Rapid fire.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_08: So I'm not sure who will go first, but what is your favorite movie or line from your favorite cop movie?
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_08: Favorite patrol car and favorite drink of choice.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'll go first.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_02: Favorite movie cop line?
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_02: Cop.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_08: Favorite cop movie.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_08: See, I would screw it up.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_06: Police movie or line from a police movie.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_08: There you go.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: So when I was a teenager, Beverly Hills cop came out.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: And he Eddie Murphy.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_02: He puts the bananas in the detective's car tailpipe.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_07: Yep, yep.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: Say, we're not gonna fall for the old banana in the tailpipe trip.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why that that line sticks out in my head.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_09: That's awesome.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um favorite police vehicle.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: I know you guys talk about cars and trucks a lot.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean Clinton were in New York City a few years back at a conference, and we actually got to go on a first responder boat that the city of New York owns.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: That was probably the coolest police vehicle I've ever put my feet in.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_02: It was amazing.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: So it's on the water, but but uh it was it was pretty cool.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_06: Capability on it, nuclear detection devices.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, it was cool.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, super, super cool.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_02: And uh favorite drink.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: I man, it's hard for me to pass up a good old-fashioned if I'm if I'm going out to eat.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good one, too.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: My man, that's a good one.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good one.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh favorite police movie.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm not gonna be very good at that.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'd have to sit here and think about it, uh, unfortunately.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, I don't watch a lot of movies.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, I don't have time.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: Never had time.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Favorite police car?
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: Favorite police car, Crown Victoria.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_08: Oh yes, Sheriff.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_08: I hear fist bump.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, there you go.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, we're good friends.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_08: There you go.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_08: And that's the number one answer, by the way.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_08: Just throwing it.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_08: Oh, yeah.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's about the number one.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh Ford's Ford's worst idea when they quit.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm quite making those.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't either.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh favorite drink, not a big drinker, but uh like a bourbon and coke.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_06: Any particular bourbon you like, Sherry?
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the cheaper kind.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm buying.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_08: Well, Clinton guy thing.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_06: Nope.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_06: Uh other than Caprice, Chevy Caprice, if you'd like to be a sponsor.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_06: Well, that's about wraps it up, guys.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_08: If you guys want to go ahead and uh hit that subscribe button, you guys stay safe out there.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_08: This is an unbelievable story, and thank y'all for coming on.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a good episode.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having us.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_08: Uh, just an unbelievable story.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_08: And I just can't, I still can't believe that he he he went four hours and traveled four hours and came to Dallas County, Dougie to stop.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_06: In 18 days of missing.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, it's uh unbelievable.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_08: But thank y'all for coming on and sharing it.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_08: Uh, it's a story that needs to be told, and and I just like once it uh you know, more stories of heroism need to be told like this.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_08: So sure.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_08: Thank y'all for coming on.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_08: You guys stay safe, God bless you, and as always, and God bless Texas.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_08: We're out.