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REWIND: Barry Bonds: The Scourge of Pittsburgh · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Hi everybody, welcome to the Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: My name is Tim Hannon, and with me is uh Steve Wirt.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: Hi, Steve.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: Hey, Tim.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: So we wanted to do an episode on uh Barry Bond's time in Pittsburgh.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: And Bonds, of course, is I think the single most polarizing sports figure of this generation.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: He's baseball's all-time home run leader.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: You could make the argument maybe that he's the greatest ball player of all time.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, he is universally despised by fans, teammates, the media, just about everybody else.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: He, of course, spent the first part of his career here in Pittsburgh.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think, Steve, like how some fans remember it is Barry Bonds was this great player, and then he left via free agency, which made everybody here hate him.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: Then he started using steroids, which made everyone everywhere hate him.
1:15
SPEAKER_01: But you know, the w his time in Pittsburgh and his relationship with the Pittsburgh fans, I it was Rocky long before he ever left town.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh yes, it was.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: He was always considered a little bit say, like, arrogant.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: Like he was not well liked in Pittsburgh.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: Barry had a way.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: Barry has a way of not making people like him.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: So so let's start with kind of Barry's early life.
1:46
SPEAKER_01: I I think sometimes the best way to understand somebody is to look at their family of origin.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: So Barry Lamar Bonds was born in 1964 to Patricia and Bobby Bonds.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: Bobby was a great ball player, not a Hall of Fame ball player, but he has a decent case.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: In the history of baseball, there were only two people ever to have five seasons with 30 home runs and 30 stolen bases.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: And there's also only two people with 300 career home runs and 400 career stolen bases.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: Bobby Bonds is one of those two people.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: You know who the other one is, Steve?
2:18
SPEAKER_00: How many home runs?
2:19
SPEAKER_00: 300?
2:20
SPEAKER_01: 300 home runs, 400 stolen bases.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: It's Barry Bonds.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: So Bobby and Barry, only only two guys that have that.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: Wow, father and son.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I that's well, I mean, most people steal bases, like Ricky Henderson, I doubt, has very many home runs.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: Although I think Barry Bonds has more walks than Ricky Henderson now.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: And Ricky Hen I I think Ricky Ricky Henderson might be number two.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: That's crazy that you you know that Barry Bonds is the all-time walk leader.
2:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: Nobody like threw him a pitch for like ten years.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: Right.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm I don't care how how many steroids you do, you can't hit a ball that ain't in the strike zone.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: Very, very true.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: Very true.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh so so Bobby Bonds, he plays minor league ball in the deep south in the 1960s, and that's that's obviously an interesting experience.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: He can't eat at the same restaurants as his white teammates, stuff like that.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: And when he gets called up to the Giants, uh he becomes close friends with one of his teammates, a guy named Willie Mays.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: Say hey kid.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: Say hey kid.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: Now, this is when they're in San Francisco at this point, correct?
3:38
SPEAKER_01: Yes, correct.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: They were in San Francisco.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: They moved around New Yorker in the 50s, right?
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: And Willie Mays is not only good friends with Bobby Bonds, he also becomes the godfather of Barry Bonds.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: And and from all accounts, seems like he wields a lot of influence on both of those guys.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: And and Willie May is of course one of the best ball players ever.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh one of the greatest sports figures, uh, absolute legend.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: And at the time of this recording, actually is a living legend.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: Willie May is still with us.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: I think he has over 600 home runs, doesn't he?
4:10
SPEAKER_00: He's one of those few.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: Yep I think it's like Pool Holes, rah uh Arod and him, like in Ruth and Baron.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: That's yeah.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Yep, that's that's that's the list.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
4:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: I I I try to dig into like what kind of person Willie Mays is, and there's all kinds of conflicting accounts.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: You get like, oh, he loved the game and he was a great teammate.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: You also get that he could be surly and conceited.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh there's an interview that he does with I believe it was Dan Patrick later in his life where he gets annoyed because Dan Patrick's asking him about current ball players, and he says, I thought this interview was supposed to be about Willie Mays.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: So he talks about himself in the third person.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: Tim, I thought this podcast was supposed to be about Steve Ward.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: And and I, you know, like stories like that, it's like you never know what the context is, right?
5:02
SPEAKER_01: I so I I I don't really know what kind of um person Willie Mays is, but one thing people seem to agree on is that his experience coming up through the Negro Leagues means that he never really trusts either the media or the baseball establishment.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: And I can't say I blame him for that, because you know, here's a group of people who early in his career they're saying, well, you you're not even allowed to play with us because of the color of your skin.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: Then a few years later, when he's hitting all these home runs and making over-the-shoulder catches in the World Series and subsequently making the team and the media money by generating interest in the sport, now all these same people seemingly love him.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean, Willie Mays to me, he's rude off the red news reindeer, Steve.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: You know, like can't play in any reindeer games, and it's like, and then all the reindeer loved him.
5:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: So I I get why.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: If Willie Mays is bitter, I totally get why.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: And he apparently imparts that mistrust of people in baseball and the media to both Bobby and Barry.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: He teaches them you always have to look out for number one.
6:13
SPEAKER_01: So back to Bobby Bonds.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: Another important thing to know about Bobby is that he's an alcoholic, has been since high school.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we mentioned that he was great, but not a Hall of Fame caliber player.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: Probably a big reason for that was his drinking.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: That's also reportedly the reason why the Giants got rid of him, and then he bounces around to like seven different teams after that.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh Bobby gets very resentful of everyround uh everyone around baseball.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: Barry, Barry Bonds even gives him interviews in his early days with the Pirates about how Bobby was kind of estranged from the family and how he rarely ever saw him growing up.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: So his relationship with his dad was pretty strained, it's by all accounts, um, when he was growing up.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: So that's that's all context for this episode, right?
6:58
SPEAKER_01: Think about how Barry Bonds grew up and what his image was of organized baseball.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: It's seemingly deprived him of a father.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: It's a place where people are just out for themselves.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: And in baseball and probably in life in general, the only person that can be trusted is you, and everybody else is the enemy.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: So I think if you can sum up one kind of overriding personality trait for Barry Bonds, it's resentment.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: Fair enough.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: That should make for an interesting uh, you know, interaction with media and fans.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: It will.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: It's somewhat self-entitled too, because you know, they don't people don't have to come and see you or spend money on you.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: So that's that's also true.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's I think sometimes professional athletes take some of them take that for granted.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: It's like people can just stay home and not spend money.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's that's a very true statement.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh Roger Kahn, who's written a bunch of baseball books, he says, quote, uh talking about Barry Bonds, quote, he keeps everyone at an emotional distance, including apparently his teammates.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't seem to be having fun out there, and consequently a lot of fans don't feel like he's trying to give them anything, so they don't give him anything back.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: End quote.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: So Steve, kind of what you were just saying there, right?
8:17
SPEAKER_01: You don't you don't have to invest your time and energy and money into these guys, right?
8:22
SPEAKER_01: You're you're you're you should be wanting to do it, and if you don't want to do it, you're not going to.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: Sports is not paying the bills, sports is not getting groceries, right?
8:32
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh Barry Bonds plays baseball in high school.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: He's really good at baseball.
8:38
SPEAKER_01: He actually, he actually, I didn't know this until this episode, Steve.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: He actually gets drafted out of high school by the San Francisco Giants.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: But he opts to go to college instead because the Giants won't pay him what he wants.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: So he actually ends up going to college instead.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: He could have been I knew he went to Arizona State.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: He he did go to Arizona State.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: He's really good at Arizona State.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: He's also really unpopular with his teammates.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: They call him, quote, rude, inconsiderate, and self-centered.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh at one point he's suspended for breaking curfew, and the the team, the other players take a vote uh whether or not he should be allowed on the team, and the other players vote no, he shouldn't be allowed back on the team.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: So um the other players don't like him now.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: Is that maybe he's the best player on this Arizona State team in the 80s, and and these guys are just jealous, or maybe he's done a bunch of things to rub them the wrong way.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: Let's let's see what happens when he goes to the Pirates.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: So going into the 1985 Major League Baseball draft, he is one of the top prospects.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, even even with kind of the turmoil at Arizona State.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: He's he's really good, and and there's a lot of people in baseball who think, hey, this guy could could pan out.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: So so let's let's talk about the Pirates of that era, because it's not a good time.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: The Pirates had this really rich history, and then they of course had a very dominant decade in the 70s where they won two championships and were always contenders.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know, Steve, to say things bottomed out in the 80s, I feel like that's a massive understatement.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: Johnny Ray.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Johnny Ray and Johnny Ray and Del Barra and yeah, all those guys.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, in and we did the episode about the drug trials and everything that happened there, and and by the time we get to 1985, there's a lot of fans who think the franchise isn't even going to survive.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: And and we talked about that episode.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: That episode we did, by the way, is called How Two Fans Nearly Destroyed the Pirates.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: So please go back and listen because it's it's a pretty amazing story of how the Pirates went from world champions to complete dumpster fire in only a few seasons.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: But just to summarize very briefly, there's a massive cocaine scandal in baseball that's squarely rooted in Pittsburgh.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: The Pirates are completely drained of talent.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: The manager and the GM are fired, and the 1985 team loses 104 games.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: The average crowd at Three River Stadium at that point is 9,000 people.
11:12
SPEAKER_01: Just for comparison, the Pittsburgh Spirit, who are an indoor soccer team that played at the Civic Arena, are averaging 8,000 people a game around the same time.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: So the Pirates are in big Three River Stadium, are just barely outdrawing the Pittsburgh Spirit.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: The Galbraith family, who had owned the team for 40 years at that point, they um decide they're gonna sell the team.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: They're gonna take whatever offer they can get.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Uh we said in that episode, Steve, that it's probably the worst single season in the history of Pittsburgh sports of any team.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: And I still maintain that it is.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh Pittsburgh mayor Richard Caladore, he comes to the rescue.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: Uh we've talked about him on the show before, one of Steve's dad's heroes.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: He spearheads a group of local corporations to buy and save the team.
11:58
SPEAKER_01: But even after that happens, I mean, okay, great, we have a baseball team, but the prospects still aren't looking good at that point, right?
12:07
SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe they'll hire a Hall of Fame manager.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: That would help.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: That would help, and maybe they'll they'll have some good draft picks.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: Starting with the 1985 draft where the Pirates have the sixth overall pick.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: And and it's it's a pretty stacked draft.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: Steve, ready for some names of baseball players who got drafted in 1985?
12:29
SPEAKER_00: I'll lay it on me.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: Will Clerk, Barry Larkin, John Smoltz, Raphael Palmero, David Dustis, Bo Jackson, and Randy Johnson.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: Wait a minute.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: Bo Jackson plays football, not baseball, too.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: Yes, he played baseball too.
12:45
SPEAKER_01: Fun fact.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: Pretty good at baseball, too.
12:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: The 1985 draft class has the highest wins above replacement total of any class in baseball draft history.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, really, really stacked uh group there.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: The Pirates with that six pick, they select Barry Bonds.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: And in I I went back to um the Pittsburgh press from the day that he was drafted.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: And it's amazing because right away there were concerns about his character.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh, in fact, baseball America's draft preview that day states that a lot of teams don't even have bonds on their draft board because of said concerns.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: The Pirates have uh a bunch of scouts, and the and their West Coast scout, because he played at Arizona State, their West Coast scout is a guy named Gary Gardner, and he's quoted in the press uh right around the time that the bonds is drafted, and he says that the team has investigated those concerns, and while they think Barry Bonds is maybe a little cocky, uh they don't have a problem with that.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh Jerry Gardner, the scout, he says, I'd be more afraid of the kid if he were timid.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: So careful wiki wiki for there, Jerry.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: Well, he needs some confidence.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: He definitely went some confidence, but yeah.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: Then it then it goes the other way.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh the general manager of the pirates at this time is Joe L.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: Brown, who uh was their general manager for about it was approximately, I don't know, 125 years.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: Felt like he's he's the he was, he was there forever, but he's the one that drafts Bonds.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: And on the day that Bonds is drafted, Joe L.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Brown makes this dubious prediction.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: He says, quote, he might steal 30 bases every year, but we don't project him as a home run hitter.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: Whoops.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: Whoops.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: 700 and some home runs later.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: To be fair, a lot of baseball people had the same idea.
14:42
SPEAKER_01: Bonds Bonds seemed like he would make a good leadoff hitter, maybe like a Lou Brock kind of player, but he wasn't going to be a power hitter.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: That was that seemed to be the consensus.
14:54
SPEAKER_01: So Bonds gets drafted by the Pirates uh in 1986.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: He he starts in the minors, but he does pretty well.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: He's caught up pretty quickly, but about midway through the 1986 season.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think he the he didn't even like spend hardly any time in the minor.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: No, just a couple of months, basically.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh in the in 1986, he hit 16 home runs.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: And again, remember, this was only he only got caught up halfway through the season.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: Uh, that is the most by a pirates rookie since Al Oliver hit 17 in 1969.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: But he only bats 223 and he strikes out 102 times.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: So it it he's sort of one of these guys that you know is just swinging for the fence every time.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but that's okay.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: He's a rookie, right?
15:41
SPEAKER_01: He'll he'll he'll he'll get better.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: When the Pirates call him up, they put him in center field.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: And uh it doesn't go well.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh Bob Walk says that Bonds was, quote, truly horrible.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: And and by this point, as Steve kind of alluded to, uh, they've hired a manager named Jim Leland.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: And Leland keeps wanting Bonds to play deep, uh, but Bonds keeps ignoring those instructions, and then a bunch of balls keep going over his head.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh that are fly balls that he seemingly could have caught had he been playing deeper.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh some of the Pirates players start feeling like he's a little disrespectful or arrogant because, again, he's a rookie, and the manager's saying do this, and he's not doing it.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh, there was a guy on the Pirates that year shortstop named UL Washington.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: He says, quote, Barry rubbed everybody on that team the wrong way.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: And to this day, uh UL Washington recalls asking Barry Bonds as a rookie, hey, can you loan me a bat?
16:44
SPEAKER_01: And Bonds reportedly said, Sorry, dude, I've only got seven left.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: Only seven, huh?
16:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh Logan Easley, who was a one of the relief pitchers on that 86 Pirates team, says, none of us trusted him.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: If a guy's on second base and the ball's hit to you, at least try throwing him out at home.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: Give it some effort.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's my flipping run that just crossed the plate, but Barry was more concerned about his arm looking bad than he was winning a game.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: So that's that's just initial impressions of center fielder rookie Barry Bonds.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh, there is a game late in the season where Bonds hits a home run off of Phillies closer Steve Bedrosian in the bottom of the ninth inning to win the game.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of a big moment because Steve Bedrosian in that era was a Cygang Award winner and was a really good closer.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: And so that was kind of, you know, Barry had a flair for the dramatic right away.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh afterwards, of course, you know, he hits the bottom of the ninth home run.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: So there's a bunch of reporters around Barry Bonds.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but he's eating his post-game meal, and Barry Bonds yells, Move, uh word I can't say that starts with M, and says, Do I come to your house at supper time and bother you?
18:04
SPEAKER_01: And I'll get the F out of my house.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh and and several of the Pirates coaches and teammates say they're they're really horrified by that.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: They can't believe that a rookie is talking to the media like this.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: So even as a rookie, Barry Bonds is already marked starting to make people dislike him.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, don't come to his house.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean just wow.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: I I just don't even like just no self-awareness at all.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, you can't just give a couple of interviews, throwaway lines, and then eat your dinner.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: I was looking fastball, just say that, or yeah.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: It's just right.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: It's a very I don't know why he adopts this adversarial.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: It it's it seems like wasted energy, right, Steve?
18:50
SPEAKER_01: Like you you want to eat your dinner, say, hey guys, can you can you just give me about five minutes here?
18:55
SPEAKER_01: Or could you just, like you said, answer their five questions that they just are they're just using so they can fill up their column in the paper, and then and then say, Okay, thanks.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: We'll see you tomorrow.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, why waste all that energy on screaming and yelling?
19:10
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's just wasted energy, right?
19:13
SPEAKER_00: So I I don't know what to mean.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: Like it's just there's just definitely a deep-seated anger.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if he's just a very angry person.
19:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like I said, resent resentful of everybody and everybody's gonna be able to get it.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't like this early in his career, it wasn't like he had had years and years of the media just saying nasty stuff about him.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, that was his that was probably his big moment.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: He won the game.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: Again, Steve Bedrosin was a star pitcher.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: He won the game with a home run off Steve Bedrosian.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: That that would be a moment where you would want the media to be writing all about this, right?
19:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: There is, though, uh a side that the Bonds had that not many people saw.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: So this is a this is a pretty interesting story.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: So in the offseason that year, in January, Rich Donnelly, I don't know if you remember Rich Donnelly, Steve, but he was there, he was pitching coach or third base coach.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: Third base coach, uh, under Leland for years.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: I think he followed him too, like other places that Leland went.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, he asks if Barry Bonds would help.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: He's running a youth baseball clinic in a rural high school in West Virginia, and he offers Barry Bonds a$500 appearance fee, which, you know, I mean, even in 1987 probably isn't a ton if you're a Major League Baseball player, but he's pretty surprised that Bond says yes.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but then on the morning, again, this is January, on the morning of the event, there's a huge snowstorm.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: So Donnelly arrives at this rural school in West Virginia at 8 a.m.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: and he goes to the principal's office and he says, Hey, there's a snowstorm.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: This Barry Bonds isn't going to be showing up.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: And he's really surprised when the principal says, What are you talking about?
20:54
SPEAKER_01: Barry Bonds is in the gym talking to the kids right now.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: And Bonds stays there for four hours.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: He duels out all kinds of autographed bats and gloves.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: And before he leaves the school, he goes up to Rich Donnelly and he hands him the$500 appearance fee check.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: And he says, Hey, do me a favor, keep this and write it over to the athletic fund here instead.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: And Rich Donnelly said, That's a side of Barry I'd never seen before.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: It's weird, but I don't think he wants many people to see it.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: It's his little secret, and he doesn't need it in the clubhouse.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: And Jim Leland said, Underneath all that toughness, I know what a big heart, I know what a big heart there is.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: I know the things that Barry has done for kids in different charities, things he did for people that a lot of people never knew about.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: I saw a side of Barry that some people to this day still haven't seen.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: It's just weird.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: Like most guys would have made a big to do and had cameras and stuff there.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean it's wow.
21:52
SPEAKER_00: I've never heard that one before, but that's good for Barry Bonds.
21:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it just it gives you kind of a it the guy's the Barry Bonds is definitely an enigma.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean he's very much in an enigma.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: And and you don't like we just talked about like why why would you do the things you do and then you don't for you really don't understand why he would a guy like that would go to a again, this was a a small school, it's in rural West Virginia in a snowstorm, and he's going there to spend hours with these kids.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh so who knows?
22:24
SPEAKER_01: Again, this this is this is going to be the theme for this episode is you're gonna shrug your shoulders a lot.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: Um in in 1987, uh before the season starts, the Pirates make a big trade, and they trade for a player by the name of Andy Van Slyke.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: And Andy Van Slyke and Barry Bonds dislike each other from the start.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: Bonds feels threatened because remember, Barry Bonds was a center fielder, and that's Andy Van Slyke's position.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh Andy Van Slake thinks that Bonds is too cocky.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh Andy Van Slyke, also a guy, Steve, that was never afraid to speak his mind.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's yeah, yeah.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: He's definitely got like, yeah, it's gonna be a friction.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
23:07
SPEAKER_01: So about midway through that 1987 season, Tim Leland does make the switch to put Andy Van Slick in center and he moves Barry Bonds to left field, which uh ends up working much better defensively for Barry Bonds.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: Bonds continues to feud with the media.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: One thing he really hates is when they call him Bobby instead of Barry.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: Why would you whoops?
23:32
SPEAKER_00: Let me call you by your dad's name.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: It's not even close.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: He's not a junior or anything.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: It's he literally has a whole different name.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean it's it starts with a B, I guess.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh but but I I actually uh a lot of material I got for this podcast, I I got by reading the book that Jeff Pearlman wrote about Barry Bonds, uh, which is a pretty interesting book, so go go check that out.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: But he dug up all these excerpts from newspaper articles from that season where people called him Bobby Bonds.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: Like he literally has all these little clips of newspaper articles.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: It was a lot.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: And uh and it makes him very angry.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: He starts either ignoring or berating reporters who do that.
24:13
SPEAKER_01: And um I I don't know.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: I like one fair question to ask, Steve, is is this like one of those instances of like racial microaggressions?
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Because you have to wonder, did anyone ever call Dale Delbera Yogi when he played for the Pirates?
24:31
SPEAKER_01: You know?
24:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: I I don't know what they are doing.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: I that's weird.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: They used to call Roberto what Bob?
24:40
SPEAKER_01: Bob, yeah, because it sounded more American or whatever, or white, probably.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: So or or like is it just it starts with a B and you just you know?
24:53
SPEAKER_00: But don't they have editors?
24:54
SPEAKER_00: I mean I mean, especially back then.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: I would think being accurate would I mean I wouldn't want to yeah, I would feel stupid writing that unless you're doing it just to get under his skin.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: I I don't know.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, who who knows?
25:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the good news is that today there's accuracy in the me accuracy in the media is you know top number.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's way up.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's way up.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can't you can't I mean with all the technology Right.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh 1987 is a pretty solid season for Barry Bonds.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: He gets his average up to 261.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: Remember, he was like a 220 hitter the year before.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: He hits 25 home runs.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: 25 home runs was a lot for the late 1980s.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, when you would hit 30, that was like a good year.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: It was a really good year.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: He also steals 32 bases.
25:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh the 1987 season, Steve and I remember this probably very well because it was the first time we you would ever we had ever gotten excited about the Pirates after years and years of them being bad.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: They go 27 and 11 over the final six weeks of the season.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: They win 80 games for the first time in four years, and they draw more than one million fans to Three River Stadium.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: They they went from like last place to like third place or something like that.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: Fourth place.
26:07
SPEAKER_01: So you look at the standings, 80 and 82 in fourth place.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: If you just looked at that like on a piece of paper, you'd think that's not a very good season.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: But it was because they started out.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: I remember because I went to a lot of games that year that summer, and they were bad, like the first half of that season, and then the second half, they just absolutely turned it on.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if the pitching clicked or what, but they definitely could hit.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: I think the hitting clicked is the main thing, and they started to be able to hit.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was it was one of those things where you're like, oh, we might we actually might have something here, right?
26:41
SPEAKER_01: And and could they carry that in the future seasons?
26:44
SPEAKER_01: So in the off-season between 87 and 88, Barry Bonds gets married to a woman named Sun Bronco, who he met at a strip club in Canada where Son Bronco worked.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: Uh they get married before the season.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: That's definitely where you go to meet a future wife for sure.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, right.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, not not not the gym or or you know the grocery store church or just a friend of a friend's, yeah.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: Strip club.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: They didn't, it's like they had Matt.com back then, Steve.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you had to do what you had to do, I guess.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: Sun Bronco, huh?
27:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: Well, she'll factor in later.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, apparently Barry got a lot of um flack from his teammates for for, you know, marrying a woman that worked at a strip club.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: Well, that should help his relationship with his teammates.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, yes.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh the the 1988 season, they they definitely carry over the momentum from the 87 season.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: They get off to a really hot start.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: And and Barry Bonds gets off to a really hot start.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh, Annie Vance, this is a quote from the 1988 season.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: Annie Vance Lyck says, Barry Bonds has got a chance to be one of the top five players in the league.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: I can say that without question.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: In fact, I'll put it in gold letters, and you can put that in capitals.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: So Annie Vance Lyck making a prediction there that Barry Bonds is going to be one of the top five players in baseball.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: And and the Pirates and Bonds have a have a great 1988 season.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: They have this really fun pennant race with the Mets.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh, they do finish in second place, but they draw a record-breaking 1.8 million.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: And they really the Mets were a much better team.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: They just won the series the year before in 86 or what no, this is 88, two years before.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: And they still have Doc Gooden and Darryl Strawberry, Wally Backman, all those like great players.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: The Pirates just and I think they didn't get eliminated till like late August or September.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: It was it was a pennant race all the way down to the end.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: And it was so exciting because you know, my goodness, the Pirates in a pennant race.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: And remember back then that meant a lot of stuff.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there were two divisions.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: You there was the League Championship series and World Series.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: That was it.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: They finished 85 and 75 that year.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: That would probably almost definitely get you into the playoffs today.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the Mets won like a hundred games or something that year.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: I I they won, they were pretty good.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: So fun season, disappointing, disappointing finish, but fun season.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: And it's a super young team.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: So what I think all of us as Pirates fans were thinking at the time is the best is yet to come.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh Barry Bonds, meanwhile, continues to distance himself more from his teammates.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh Andy Van Slake says that, quote, Barry was simply inept with social situations.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: I think it was a condition that manifested itself because he never saw what it was to treat people with dignity.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: Ouch.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: One example of this is he offends two former pirate legends, Willie Stargel and Dave Parker.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't make yeah.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: Wow, talk about wow.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: Jeez.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Barry Bonds, yeah, he he cast a wide net.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: Willie Star Joel and Dave Parker?
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: I I guess he's he's so you know, Vance Like said he's inept in social situations.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: He's he's apparently like trying to joke around with them, saying stuff like, get out of here, old timers.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: But whatever the tone is, it it those two guys don't take it as joking and they get really ticked off.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: I think you can't say that the first time you meet somebody.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: Like I think if you saw them a couple times and you know what I mean, and you had a relationship, then you could joke around like that.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, hey, who let these old timers in?
30:30
SPEAKER_00: I'll not give you my job or something you know silly like that.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: Whatever the uh whatever the tone was, or whatever the like you said, maybe just like that's the first time they had ever met him, um, they don't they don't like it.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh Bonds and Vance Lyke also continue their frosty relationship.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: At one point, they get into a fist fight in the locker room with each other.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: Wow, I didn't know that.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: And Brian Fisher, who's one of the pitchers, uh says I remember him.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I remember him too.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: He says it was the funniest thing he ever saw because as they're getting into a fight, a bunch of teammates came rushing to Van Slick's defense, but nobody really stood up for Bonds.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: So not a not a popular guy.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: But conflicts aren't limited to teammates and pirate legends.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: Bonds also starts to take off a bunch of fans.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: There's a game at Three River Stadium that year against the Mets.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: Like we said, they were in a pennant race with the Mets.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: So that was a big game.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: And as Bonds enters Three River Stadium, there's a group of kids waiting to get his autograph.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: And Bonds reportedly says, quote, F off, F off, F off, F off.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: To a bunch of kids.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: To a bunch of kids.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: He just couldn't have just walked past and not said anything.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh Pirates Outfield, or another guy you might remember, Steve, RJ Reynolds.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I met RJ Reynolds at like when I was a kid, like at like a clinic, baseball clinic.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: He didn't tell you to F off, did he?
31:56
SPEAKER_00: RJ Reynolds?
31:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: No, he was actually very nice.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: Well, that makes sense because RJ Reynolds sees this and he land base spawns in front of everybody, and he says, quote, be a bleeping man, Barry, treat people with dignity.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: So he gets really ticked off at seeing that.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh he RJ Reynolds.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: I think Rick Roden was the other pirate that was at that.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, Rick Roden.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh man, so many great names in this episode.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh RJ Reynolds, uh, especially when you read the Jeff Proman book, it seems like Reynolds and Van Slick are the two guys who really seem to detest Barry Bonds.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Oh, and and he says that R.J.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: Reynolds says Bonds would always complain about having to sign autographs.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: But he also says that whenever the team was waiting for the team bus at the at the hotel, every the whole Pirates team would wait in the lobby for the bus to come.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: Barry Bonds would stand on the sidewalk.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: And basically what Reynolds was saying is that Bonds would want people to recognize him just so he could yell at them.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: He says, quote, he wanted the attention without anyone knowing it.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: That was the warped side of Barry.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like a border, he has like a borderline personality disorder.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: It's like he wants the attention just so he can make it negative.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: It's like you're right.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: Right.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: That's that's he just wants negative attention.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: That's very odd.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: Yep, that's exactly what he's he's saying there.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: The other thing that R.J.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: Reynolds says was happening during this time is that uh Bonds doesn't really fit in with any of his black teammates.
33:29
SPEAKER_01: Reynolds says he used to plead with the white players not to tell Bonds where he and the other African American pirates were going that night.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: RJ Reynolds says, quote, we didn't want him with us, dude didn't fit in.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: And that had to have been an odd situation for him, already being at odds with people.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: But also he's the son of a famous ball player.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: So he grew up in a as a rich suburban kid with white friends where a lot of the his black teammates came from way different kinds of situations.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: And and I'm gonna read this.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: This is a this is a um taken directly out of the Prolman book.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: Quote, Bonds speaks in an effeminate, high-pitched manner, reminiscent of the voice Eddie Murphy would use to imitate an unquote white guy on Saturday Night Live.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: Whereas black players fill the clubhouse with the beats of Tupac, Bonds' four favorite performers are Barbara Streisand, Kenny G, Michael Bolton, and Celine Dion.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: No.
34:26
SPEAKER_00: Come on, there's no way that's true.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: I I'm just reading directly, like I said, that's taken directly from the book.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: How much how much that really played?
34:34
SPEAKER_00: Barry Bonds is not in the Celine Dion.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess he was married to a Canadian at some point, but come on, really?
34:42
SPEAKER_01: I I think I think the point they're trying to make is that um, I mean, uh RJ Reynolds did say he is quoted as saying that Barry Bonds did not fit in with the other black players.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: Now, is that because he, you know, spoke in an effinent high-pitched manner and liked Selene Dion?
34:59
SPEAKER_01: Or is that because he didn't fit in with the white players either because nobody liked him and he was a jerk?
35:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, you can read a bunch of things into that.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: You know, the book also insinuates that Bond is really insecure about this, and that he uh used to tell people he was from LA to make it sound like he was more from a rough area.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: Again, I the the Prolman book is really interesting.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: It is a there's a little bit of a hit piece.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: That's absolutely fantastical.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: I I just can't believe that.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: I just I don't know.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: I I'm heavily skeptical.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: I I I'm with you.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: Like I said, it's a lot of hit piece stuff, and and it's it was written.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: I want to ask Barry Bonds now who's his favorite four artists are.
35:39
SPEAKER_01: You know, it was written at a time when Barry Bonds was an easy target when all the steroids stuff was going on.
35:44
SPEAKER_01: So uh, but again, I I'm I'm I the the direct quotes from players to me matter more than you know the the kind of the insinuation stuff.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: And RJ Reynolds was right there saying that you know he didn't just didn't fit in.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: So uh things start to turn ugly with his wife too.
36:03
SPEAKER_01: So Sun Bronco says, quote, he always told me that I was too opinionated, that I didn't need to have an opinion.
36:09
SPEAKER_01: He said he was the man in the house, and I should shut up.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's one way to run a house.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: I wonder how that's gonna let's say how's that gonna work out there for uh good old Barry.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: I get the feeling Sun Bronco is going to be very well off in the near future.
36:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she also calls police, um, tells police that following a dispute about birth control pills, Barry Bonds grabbed her around the neck, kicked her, and threw her down the stairs.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: So again, that's obviously those things are always a he said, she said kind of thing.
36:46
SPEAKER_00: Uh I never I've never heard anything of like that about Barry, just that he's a jerk, unless you know it was swept under the rug for all those years.
36:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:54
SPEAKER_00: I mean it's it's an abolition.
36:56
SPEAKER_00: This is still kind of early in his career in the eighties, so it was easier to sweep things under the rug there.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: It was.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh one friend that Barry has on the team.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: Here's another name, Steve, if you remember, is utility outfielder John Cangelosi.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: He gets along with John Cangelosi.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: Of all the people in the world.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: Of all the people, yeah.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: It's it's well, maybe there is something to that RJ Reynolds thing that I yeah.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: Describe John Cangelosi for the people that don't.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean, John Cangelosi was not um, he didn't look like an athlete, right?
37:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he was like a short little white guy.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: Like he was a good he was a decent player.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say he was like he was a major leaguer.
37:40
SPEAKER_00: He wasn't like gonna be in the Hall of Fame or anything or making all the team.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: Who was that linebacker for the Steelers?
37:46
SPEAKER_01: Robert Spillane.
37:47
SPEAKER_01: He was Robert Spillane.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: Like really didn't belong there, but hustled enough where he could make some plays and you could put him into the game.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if he needed them, he he would normally come through for it.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: Right.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: That's the that's the perfect description.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: John Cangielosi says, quote, is he moody?
38:03
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
38:03
SPEAKER_01: Was he dumb in the way he worked the press?
38:06
SPEAKER_01: No question.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: But if you get inside, you'll see the compassion that he has.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: And John Cangielosi said he wasn't afraid to tell Bonds the truth.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: He said, You're a great player, but that doesn't give the right give you the right to treat people like poop.
38:18
SPEAKER_01: Well, he didn't say poop.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: Um The Pirates at this point know that Bonds is a is a head case.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: So they actually start talking to the Atlanta Braves about making a trade.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: The general manager of the Braves at this time is a guy named Bobby Cox.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: He hasn't started managing yet, huh?
38:37
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh and at the time he offers Andres Thomas uh for Barry Bonds.
38:45
SPEAKER_01: And and at the time, uh, if you remember, the the Pirates were in like shortstop hell for about four years in the late 80s.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: This is before David.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: I like Sammy Khalifa.
38:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: They had Sammy Khalifa, Al Pedrique, uh, who else?
39:00
SPEAKER_01: Felix Fermine.
39:01
SPEAKER_01: Ferme.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: Felix Fermine.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: I remember they used to play Felix the Cat theme song.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: He couldn't hit, and he wasn't a very good fielder.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: No.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: And neither could Sammy Khalifa.
39:13
SPEAKER_00: I remember in the paper they called Sammy Khalifa the shortstop of the future.
39:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: They did.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: But none of those guys worked out.
39:20
SPEAKER_01: And Andres Thomas was not a star player, but he was a stable shortstop.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: And the Braves say, hey, we'll give you Andres Thomas.
39:28
SPEAKER_01: And the Pirates say, okay, if you throw in Jeff Blauser, we'll trade you Barry Bonds.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: And Bobby Cox says no.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: Sounds like Bobby Cox made a mistake.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: You think?
39:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean, think about the Braves of the 90s.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: Jeff Blauzer.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: For Jeff Blauzer and Andres Thomas could have had Barry Bonds on that team with all that pitching.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they needed hitting.
39:52
SPEAKER_00: They always needed a little bit.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, they would have had him and justice.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and Ron Gantt and Terry Pendleton.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they would have been, they would have been okay.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to say they would have been pretty good.
40:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:03
SPEAKER_01: The Pirates then try to swing a trade with the Dodgers, and later the Blue Jays, who reportedly offer seven-time All-Star pitcher Dave Steve, but none of those pan out either.
40:13
SPEAKER_01: So 1989 comes and Barry's still on the team.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: And that was not a good season for the for the Buccos.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: What I remember about that season, Steve, was the Jim Rooker game.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, oh, yes.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: Two things I remember about that season.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: So yes, the Jim Rooker game that we talked about in a recent episode where Jim Rooker had to walk home from Philadelphia because they blew uh, what was it, a 10-run lead.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: 10 run lead, yeah.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: Giving up two home runs to Steve Jelts.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: And Barry Bonds' quote on Steve Jelts was Steve effing Jels.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: Just the tight end back in the berry there.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: I totally left that off, so thank you for reminding me of that.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: And that season, you know, that that was a real disappointment because 87 they got hot at the end of the year.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: 88, they they had a pennant race.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: They almost won the division.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: And then 89, they took a huge step back.
41:03
SPEAKER_01: They finished fifth in the division.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: And then you're kind of wondering, you know, I thought this team was, I thought this team was hitting their stride, uh, and they finished fifth.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh Vansyke is a free agent entering that season, and the Pirates reward him with a huge contract, which which pisses off Bonds, especially after Andy Vansyke has a subpar 89 season after getting that big contract.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: So now we go into the 1990 season, and that starts off with a bang because Bonds loses an arbitration hearing.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: And one of the reasons why.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: So so, Steve, can you describe like what an arbitration hearing is in baseball?
41:41
SPEAKER_01: They have an arbitrator making the decision, right?
41:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's like you get up there and you say, Oh, okay, like the team has to talk bad about their own players.
41:50
SPEAKER_00: Normally the bad stuff that happens is like, oh, well, Barry Bonds struck out like 200 times, and we're comparing him to, you know, who's a big time?
41:59
SPEAKER_00: Tim Rains, I don't know, or Andre Dawson or somebody like that that was big back then.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, they're not he isn't hitting as well as these guys, so that's why we're offering them this salary.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: And you know, if you don't if you take it personally, like I I can't imagine Barry Bonds would take that personally.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: But you you can really you just gotta realize that's business, and when you hit a bunch of home runs.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: Like let's say you have a season where you hit 70 home runs, that's when you go back and you renegotiate your contract and say, ah, I hit 70 home runs and packed your stadium out all season.
42:34
SPEAKER_00: Okay, how much money are you gonna give me?
42:36
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: So that that's kind of how the way the world works.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: Yep, that's a perfect description.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: And and sure enough, like you said, the Pirates get up there and they make the argument that their big argument is Barry Bonds didn't drive in as many runs as the other players in baseball who made the amount of money that Bonds wanted.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: So they really focused their argument around RBIs.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, the Pirates, I don't think we'd mentioned this, but up until this point in his career, Barry Bonds is batting leadoff.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: He's the leadoff hitter.
43:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so he's not gonna get RPIs.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: He's not gonna get RBIs.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: Of course not.
43:11
SPEAKER_01: That was the his four seasons with the team, he's battening.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, unless John Cangielosi's bat night, then you know Yeah.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: As long as he's pinch hitting.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh so I mean I I can see being a little upset about that.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit of a dirty tactic by the team.
43:26
SPEAKER_01: And and remember, too, this is the era where you still had collusion and other kind of low ball tactics by the MLB owners.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: So I can certainly see, like you said, Steve, you have to understand it's a business.
43:38
SPEAKER_01: I can I can see this rubbing you the wrong way a little bit.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: Bonds openly complains in the media via his agent.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: His agent says, quote, Barry doesn't want to be a part of the Pirates anymore.
43:48
SPEAKER_01: If he could be gone tomorrow, he would be happy.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's going to endear yourself to the fans.
43:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:53
SPEAKER_01: I I mean, so let's let's let's let's go back to like nineteen ninety Pittsburgh, or probably nineteen ninety anywhere, but especially 1990 Pittsburgh.
44:01
SPEAKER_01: Whenever there was a dispute between a team and a player, the fans always, always sided with the team.
44:08
SPEAKER_01: Right.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: It was you're getting paid to play a game.
44:11
SPEAKER_01: You should be happy with whatever they're giving you.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think too, that was the era of everybody was leaving town, so people kind of took it personally, like, oh my god, another person's leaving town.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: Like, not only were businesses moving town, but when those businesses left, a lot of probably family and friends moved with them to find work and other places.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: That was kind of the whole 80s in Pittsburgh, and even stayed that way into the 90s for some time, too.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
44:37
SPEAKER_00: So I think that was kind of like in the public psyche per se.
44:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:42
SPEAKER_00: That's a really like, well, you don't want to be here, move out with all the other bums that moved to Atlanta or Dallas or wherever else.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
44:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and and so people start getting really angry that Barry Bonds is it has the nerve to complain and say he doesn't want to be here anymore.
44:59
SPEAKER_01: And and in terms of kind of like siding with the team, Steve, I think I think Pittsburgh fans still lean that way largely today, but I feel like there's more nuance today.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: And there's zero nuance in 1990.
45:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think now, like, if that came up, like, you know, well, whoever pick your, you know, Andrew McCutcheon or like when Andrew McCutcheon left, nobody was mad at him.
45:21
SPEAKER_00: They were like, oh, okay, you know, he's just going to get more money here.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: Because normally the athletes are like, well, you know, I'd like to stay here, but you know, I gotta support my family, and you know, I want to find a good deal.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: Or they just don't say anything at all, which is probably the better move, just to keep your don't put anything out there in the press.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: Right.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: Right.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and if Brian Reynolds lost his arbitration case and was upset about it, I think you actually might have some fans saying, Oh, they should pay him, he deserves it, or you you would have had none of that in 1990 ever.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: No matter Barry Bonds had 400 RBIs, people would have still sided with the team, right?
46:01
SPEAKER_01: You would have never heard the phrase give him the bag in 1990.
46:05
SPEAKER_00: Give him the bag.
46:08
SPEAKER_00: Amazing how times have changed, huh?
46:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean, and now it's like the players that make as much as they do now, and now it's like, why do I care like billionaires and millionaires fighting over millions of dollars?
46:21
SPEAKER_00: It's like these are two people that are in tax brackets I'm never even gonna whiff, get a whiff of, and you know, okay, whatever.
46:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna get like emotionally involved in this, quite honestly.
46:34
SPEAKER_01: Well, regardless, the 1990 season becomes the year where Barry Bonds goes from you know pretty good player to just bona fide superstar.
46:42
SPEAKER_01: He becomes the first major leaguer in history to have a 300 batting average, 100 RBIs, 100 runs, and 50s to one bases in the same season.
46:51
SPEAKER_01: And he also hits 33 home runs just for good measure.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: That's wow, that's that's an awesome season.
46:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:58
SPEAKER_01: He's named the National League MVP.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh the Pirates put it all together as a team as well.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: And after a memorable pennant race again with the Mets, they win the NL East and they advance to the NLCS against the Cincinnati Reds.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: And and to this day, I've said this on the show before, but if I could read like go back and relive that 1990 baseball season, I loved that.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: I loved baseball, and I loved everything about that season.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: I love like the baseball cards and the the the ESPN baseball tonights, and like everything about that time in baseball, I just loved.
47:29
SPEAKER_01: So, so they're playing the Reds in the NLCS.
47:32
SPEAKER_01: Cincinnati has a really good team that year.
47:35
SPEAKER_00: Wire to wire, man.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they were wire to wire.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: Yep, they were they never were not in first place.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh but the Pirates, you know, they have the best player in baseball, but unfortunately, Barry Bonds crumbles under the pressure of the playoffs.
47:48
SPEAKER_01: He hits 167 in a six-game series, zero home runs, and the pirates lose in those six games.
47:57
SPEAKER_01: Now, to be fair, uh Bobby Bonia, who is a guy we haven't mentioned yet, but who was uh probably the second best player on the team, and Andy Vance also didn't do well.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: They both hit around 200.
48:11
SPEAKER_01: But Barry Bonds is the league MVP, right?
48:14
SPEAKER_00: You would expect a little bit more out of him.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: But the Reds were really good that year.
48:18
SPEAKER_00: They had like, I forget who their starting pitching was really good.
48:21
SPEAKER_00: They had Rob Dibble out of the bullpen.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: They were really good that year.
48:25
SPEAKER_01: They were really good.
48:26
SPEAKER_01: But 167 for the league MVP.
48:29
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: They had a hard shot as an owner, so.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: They did.
48:33
SPEAKER_01: Bonds bonds also takes off a lot of people by publicly calling out third baseman Jeff King for not playing through an injury during the series.
48:41
SPEAKER_01: He actually, in the media, kind of insinuates Jeff King should be playing and he's not.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: So that's that's not good.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh this is also the season where the economics of baseball really start to catch up with the Pirates.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: The team loses approximately five million dollars in 1990.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: And and this was, you know, Steve kind of already alluded to this.
49:02
SPEAKER_01: During the 1980s, the city's population had dropped 14%.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: I didn't realize it was that much, but I'm not surprised.
49:09
SPEAKER_01: Like you said, everybody was leaving town.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: US steel just like closes up and leaves town.
49:14
SPEAKER_00: It was kind of like a leftover from the 70s, like all the mills closed in the 70s, and then the rest of them closed in the eighties.
49:22
SPEAKER_00: And then everybody, you know, like I said, everybody went to Atlanta or Dallas or I don't think Florida was even that big of a thing back then.
49:30
SPEAKER_00: It was more like Atlanta.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: Like I remember that a lot of people went to Atlanta.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: It was more just like anywhere but here.
49:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, anywhere south that wasn't a Rust Belt city.
49:38
SPEAKER_00: Because the same thing happened to Detroit and a lot of other Milwaukee and a lot of other, you know, northern cities.
49:45
SPEAKER_00: Rust Belt.
49:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's where the Rust Belt started.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: So the Pirates are playing in kind of a decaying market.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: After that 1990 season, Bond's still upset about his contract, still talking about wanting to play somewhere else.
49:58
SPEAKER_01: And it really irritates him when Doug Grayback and Andy Van Slake both get more money, and then Barry Bonds for the second straight year loses his arbitration case.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: It's probably not helping that those players are a of a different ethnic makeup.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
50:16
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
50:16
SPEAKER_01: That that is insane.
50:19
SPEAKER_00: I could see Willie, yeah, Willie Mays', you know, feeding into that, probably.
50:25
SPEAKER_00: And I don't I don't know if there was anything to that back then.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
50:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe or what it's hard to say.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: Like I I I highly doubt that's that the powers that beat the pirates were like, let's pay the white guys and not and not bury bonds.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: But you could you could argue that you know there's some subconscious stuff going on there, right?
50:49
SPEAKER_01: So who knows?
50:50
SPEAKER_01: It's it's impossible to say.
50:52
SPEAKER_01: And again, it's really hard because Bonds is also a guy that nobody likes, right?
50:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh Bonds at the time says, quote, the pirates can't keep crying broke.
51:03
SPEAKER_01: You can't own half of Pittsburgh and say you're on welfare.
51:06
SPEAKER_01: And he says, if I do leave, I'll haunt the Pittsburgh Pirates.
51:09
SPEAKER_01: They'll be the one team I beat up on.
51:11
SPEAKER_01: And once again, Steve, that does not go over well with the local fans.
51:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's funny because Peyton Manning said the same thing and is revered for it.
51:21
SPEAKER_00: And very bonds.
51:23
SPEAKER_00: Basically said the same thing that Peyton Manning said like seven years later.
51:27
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
51:28
SPEAKER_00: Remember that wasn't an interview with Bill Paulian when he was thinking of drafting him, said, Yeah, if you don't draft me, I'm gonna beat you every year or something like that.
51:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:36
SPEAKER_01: Yep, and and he's a legend.
51:38
SPEAKER_01: So you're right.
51:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's there's definitely some double standards, but again, think about how Peyton Manning treats people versus how Barry Bonds treats people.
51:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh Gene Collier, who if if you're from here, you probably recognize that name.
51:50
SPEAKER_01: He was a columnist for the Pittsburgh press who had a very, what would you say, Steve, like dry sense of humor, sarcastic.
51:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sarcastically dry kind of thing going on.
52:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:00
SPEAKER_01: He writes a column at the time.
52:02
SPEAKER_01: He says, quote, if judgment day were tomorrow, you get the feeling that the official agenda would be Hitler, Saddam Hussein's treatment of the Kurds, and then Barry Bonds's poor unfair contract situation.
52:16
SPEAKER_01: So there's that.
52:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh Barry's frustration spills over into spring training and the now infamous incident that we've talked about before with the cameraman.
52:26
SPEAKER_01: Uh so they're at spring training down in Florida.
52:29
SPEAKER_01: There's a press photographer taking pictures because that's what press photographer's job is to take pictures of ball players.
52:37
SPEAKER_01: And for some reason, on that day, Barry Bonds gets very angry that somebody's taking pictures.
52:44
SPEAKER_01: And he tells the photographer to quote, get the F out of my face.
52:47
SPEAKER_01: He also gets into it with Bill Verden, who is the former pirate legend who's a hitting coach in 1991.
52:54
SPEAKER_00: Also coached the Yankees.
52:56
SPEAKER_01: Also coached the Yankees, also uh a guy that Steve met.
53:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I did.
53:01
SPEAKER_00: Yes, another guy.
53:03
SPEAKER_00: I think I met him.
53:04
SPEAKER_00: That might have been that season, too.
53:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh, nice.
53:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
53:07
SPEAKER_01: You should have asked him about Barry Bonds.
53:10
SPEAKER_00: I was like, you know, what was it?
53:12
SPEAKER_00: 90?
53:13
SPEAKER_00: I was like 13, 12 or 13.
53:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
53:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh Jim Leland comes over and starts screaming at Bonds.
53:20
SPEAKER_01: He says, uh, sir, I am the manager of this team, and if you don't want to be here, then kindly exit the premises.
53:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh it's all captured by good sir, have offended me for the last time.
53:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:32
SPEAKER_01: Of course, uh, it's it's a little more rough language than that.
53:35
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's all captured by a TV station from Altoona, and the clip goes like 1991 viral.
53:42
SPEAKER_00: You know, because it really did the six o'clock news.
53:46
SPEAKER_01: Well, but but it it got played a lot.
53:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you you you couldn't avoid that.
53:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you saw that everywhere for a long time.
53:54
SPEAKER_01: And and we can't play it on this podcast because it's pointless.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: It's like it's like Barry bleep, bleep, beep, bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep.
54:01
SPEAKER_01: No, I just bleep, bleep, bleep.
54:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just you can't hear anything unless you unless somebody has the unbleeped out version, which we're not going to play here.
54:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but we'll post a link to it anyway.
54:11
SPEAKER_00: You can hear the sensor guy or in his keep.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:14
SPEAKER_01: So Leland screams at Bonds, Bonds screams at Leland, and Verdon.
54:18
SPEAKER_01: It's pretty ugly.
54:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh Bonds has recently signed an endorsement deal with Pepsi, and after this video goes, you know, like I said, viral for that era, uh, Pepsi says, we don't really want to work with Barry Bonds anymore.
54:33
SPEAKER_01: And they cancel the deal.
54:34
SPEAKER_01: So it ends up costing Bonds.
54:37
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
54:37
SPEAKER_00: I didn't I didn't realize all this went on with him.
54:40
unknown: Yeah.
54:41
SPEAKER_00: I could see, like, see, I can see like this starting the snowball.
54:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, now I can kind of see it from Barry's Bonds perspective.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, yeah, they're giving all the white players money, they won't give me money.
54:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, I get mad and shoot my mouth off, and you know, I get punished while like Andy Van Slyke can say a bunch of crazy stuff.
55:03
SPEAKER_00: And is there's like highlights of Andy Van Slyke on like doing the weather on the six o'clock news or 11 o'clock news.
55:09
SPEAKER_00: Right.
55:09
SPEAKER_00: Nobody was asking Barry Bonds to do that.
55:12
SPEAKER_00: Right.
55:13
unknown: Yeah.
55:14
SPEAKER_00: Would you say Andy Van Slyke in town was probably more popular than Barry Bonds?
55:18
SPEAKER_01: But Vanny Van Slick was way more popular, and and we'll have to get into that later with the very infamous comments that comment that Barry Bonds makes about Van Slick later.
55:26
SPEAKER_00: Well, once again, it goes back to like I can see now like him growing up with Willie Mays and having that chip on his shoulder, like kind of instilled with him.
55:34
SPEAKER_00: All right, things are making a lot more sense, I think.
55:36
SPEAKER_00: Yes, with Barry here.
55:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
55:39
SPEAKER_01: And and to your point about the awareness, it's it's when when you're in that position and things are going south like that, you can you can kind of take two rows, right?
55:50
SPEAKER_01: You can you can do some self-reflection and say, maybe I need to do some things differently.
55:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and maybe you can even say, maybe things are stacked against me, but maybe maybe some of the way I'm treating people or the way I'm handling things is part of that.
56:06
SPEAKER_01: Or you could just go full blast and and blame everybody else.
56:10
SPEAKER_01: And that's what Bonds does with this uh with this incident in Florida.
56:14
SPEAKER_00: He kind of doubles down on all that, yeah.
56:18
SPEAKER_01: He does, and then he later, he actually I I didn't realize this, Steve, but he later accuses the pirates of setting that whole thing up.
56:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
56:27
SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's now that's just ridiculous.
56:30
SPEAKER_01: He says, quote, why would a why would a microphone and a TV crew be right there at that time?
56:35
SPEAKER_00: Just to stir up they're getting like B-roll for like, oh, here's spring training and the pirates, and look, here's them they're just gonna show B-roll over like a standard, oh, this year the pirates hope to you know capitalize on last year's, you know, almost you know, division, you know, come on.
56:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, and if there's one thing about the local media, they love them some pirate spring training and steelworks training.
57:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, there's nothing else going on.
57:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what else is going on in February in Pittsburgh?
57:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, and you get a free trip to Florida.
57:09
SPEAKER_00: In late July.
57:11
SPEAKER_00: What else is going on in late July after the pirates have been mathematically elected?
57:16
SPEAKER_01: That's exactly right.
57:17
SPEAKER_01: And this was a TV station from Altoona.
57:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're getting a free trip to Florida.
57:21
SPEAKER_01: Of course they're gonna take that, and they're gonna, like you said, film film stuff.
57:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh Bond says, quote, the funny thing is, my dad told me before I went to spring training, they're gonna set you up when you get there, and he was right.
57:34
SPEAKER_00: Boy, that I mean, you're always in control of your own actions and reactions, but boy, this guy was created as much as anything.
57:43
SPEAKER_00: Like now, um, you're saying he's an enigma.
57:46
SPEAKER_00: He's becoming less and less of an enigma the more you talk.
57:49
SPEAKER_00: Like I can see now why he is the way he is.
57:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:53
SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
57:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh the 1991 season starts, and the Pirates put together.
57:58
SPEAKER_01: I I would argue the 1991 Pirates are the best Pirates team since the 79 World Series champions.
58:05
SPEAKER_00: Now, to be fair Well, that means they're gonna win a World Series for sure.
58:09
SPEAKER_01: Well, and to be fair, there's not it's not like there's a bunch of pirates teams to pick from in that list.
58:13
SPEAKER_01: There's probably five or six.
58:15
SPEAKER_01: However, it's a really good team.
58:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh Vans says it's the most talented team he ever played on.
58:21
SPEAKER_01: It's just an absolute stacked lineup that wins 98 games.
58:24
SPEAKER_01: That's the best record in all of Major League Baseball.
58:27
SPEAKER_01: They become the first National League team in 13 years to repeat as division champion.
58:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's pretty big, right?
58:34
SPEAKER_01: So the National League had two divisions, and it at this point 13 years ago would have been the late 70s.
58:41
SPEAKER_01: That's the first time anybody ever repeated as a division champion in 13 years.
58:46
SPEAKER_00: And who were they going against?
58:47
SPEAKER_00: Like uh who was in that division?
58:48
SPEAKER_00: Phillies, Mets?
58:50
SPEAKER_00: Trying to think.
58:51
SPEAKER_01: The team, the team that gave them the most competition that year was the Cardinals.
58:56
SPEAKER_00: The Cardinals were in the West.
58:57
SPEAKER_01: No, they were in the East.
58:59
SPEAKER_00: Are you sure?
59:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:01
SPEAKER_00: The Reds were in the West.
59:02
SPEAKER_00: That was it.
59:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:04
SPEAKER_00: That was the weird one.
59:05
SPEAKER_01: The Cardinals were in our division.
59:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, remember Atlanta was in the West, because we play Atlanta.
59:10
SPEAKER_01: Right.
59:10
SPEAKER_00: So the Cardinals were in the East, Atlanta was in the West.
59:14
SPEAKER_00: This makes total sense.
59:16
SPEAKER_01: It does, of course.
59:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:19
SPEAKER_00: And there were no Florida Marlins, so Right.
59:22
SPEAKER_01: Right.
59:22
SPEAKER_01: It was it was it was like Cardinals, Phillies, Cubs, Mets, Expos.
59:26
SPEAKER_00: Um, I forgot about the Expos.
59:29
SPEAKER_01: You know, the teams like that.
59:30
SPEAKER_01: So uh but but the Pirates are better than all of them.
59:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh meanwhile, George Steinbrenner repeatedly tries to acquire Bonds in a trade, but the pirates say no, I guess Costanza wasn't there yet to figure out some some good trade backwards.
59:44
SPEAKER_00: Bonds agreed you for not so much, huh?
59:46
SPEAKER_01: Right.
59:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh Bonds and his wife also have their first child that season.
59:50
SPEAKER_01: And there's stories in the media.
59:51
SPEAKER_00: Is he still married to the lady from Kansas?
59:54
SPEAKER_01: At this point, yes.
59:55
SPEAKER_01: He is.
59:56
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
59:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh and there are stories in the media that year about like a Kimler gentler, Barry Bonds.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: Even some of his teammates say that he seems a lot nicer and calmer, and a lot of people attribute that to him being a father.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh this season is when Barry Bonds kind of has his marquee pirates moment.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_01: So on August 12th, 1991, the Cardinals who we talked about come to Three River Stadium.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_01: They're right behind the Pirates in the NLE Stadium.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this game.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_01: The Pirates take a lead.
1:00:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, the Cardinals, as the game goes in next innings.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: The Cardinals take a lead in the top of the 11th, in the bottom of the 11th, Bonilla gets on first, and that brings up Barry Bonds against Hall of Famer Lee Smith.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_01: By the way, I don't think we mentioned it, but uh the season before this, the Pirates started batting Bonds fifth after Bonilla.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_01: And that's really when he started to take off offensively, when he got him out of the leadoff spot.
1:00:51
SPEAKER_01: So here he is in the bottom of the 11th inning against uh Cardinals reliever Lee Smith, who um, like we said, is a Hall of Famer, and who's in 1991 is in his prime.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_01: He actually finished his second in the National Link Saiyan voting that year.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_01: So a tough at bat, here's what happens.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_00: Bonnie is running on the payoff pitch.
1:01:10
SPEAKER_00: Box with the drive, deep right field, no ball, it's gone.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so Barry Bonds trained the home run into right field.
1:01:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's kind of a memorable moment uh because he after he hits the ball, Steve, he does he you he just drops the bats and he the bat and he just kind of sticks both arms up in the air.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_01: It's a moment that gets replayed a ton.
1:01:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that was in like commercials and stuff.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's it's a pretty cool clip.
1:01:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_00: That's probably the highlight of those pirate seasons of all three seasons, I would say.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: It probably is.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it probably is because it's Barry Bonds being clutch like the star player should be.
1:01:59
SPEAKER_01: Um Bonds has a great season in 1991.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_01: He probably should be the MVP again, but the voters give it to Terry Pendleton.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_01: And if you look at the stats, uh Bonds has he's actually two whole wins above replacement more than Pendleton.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_01: He has a better on-base percentage, he has more home runs, more RBIs.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, these awards, like we've talked about before, whether it's the Heisman Trophy or the or the Hart Trophy or whatever, they they really come down to popularity contests.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_01: And Terry Pendleton's a likable guy with a great comeback story, uh, because he was a veteran that was kind of like had flamed out, and then he had this great season.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_01: And Barry Bonds is a jerk.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_01: So Terry Pendleton's the MVP, not Barry Bonds.
1:02:43
SPEAKER_01: But regardless, all that bodes well for the Pirates heading into the NLCS against the team that Terry Pendelman plays for, the Atlanta Braves.
1:02:53
SPEAKER_01: And the Atlanta Braves of this era, their strength is that they have a bunch of really good pitchers.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_01: Right before game one of the NLCS, Bonds inexplicably does an interview where he rips into the Pirates again over his contract, and he talks about how he's the best player in baseball.
1:03:12
SPEAKER_01: I think I remember this interview.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's when he makes the infamous Great White Hope comment about Annie Vance.
1:03:18
SPEAKER_01: He he basically says Annie Vance can do no wrong.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_01: He's the great white hope around here, and uh once again rubs a lot of people the wrong way, uh, basically saying that everybody likes Annie Vance Lyck because he's white, nobody likes Barry Bonds because he's black, and also he's the best player, and the Pirates suck for not giving him a new contract.
1:03:39
SPEAKER_01: This is before game one of the NLCS, Steve.
1:03:43
SPEAKER_00: Sounds like a great time to air your grievances.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like you said, self-awareness, right?
1:03:49
SPEAKER_01: Some kind of self-awareness.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_01: If you're gonna say that, number one, if you're gonna complain about your contract, wait till after the season.
1:03:56
SPEAKER_01: If you're gonna if you're gonna be upset about any events like maybe don't go public with that, I mean there's no good that can come from any of that.
1:04:04
SPEAKER_01: But I don't think he's I don't think he was ever thinking strategically, right?
1:04:07
SPEAKER_01: I think he was just reacting.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_01: Just reacting.
1:04:11
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_01: Once again, uh Barry Bonds chokes in the playoffs.
1:04:15
SPEAKER_01: In 1991, NLCS, he goes four for twenty-seven, zero home runs, zero runs batted in.
1:04:22
SPEAKER_01: Of the Pirates' eight starting position players in the 1991 NLCS, Steve, guess where Barry Bonds finishes?
1:04:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna guess dead last.
1:04:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:04:32
SPEAKER_01: He's he finishes eighth in batting of their eight starting position players.
1:04:36
SPEAKER_01: Literally, he is their worst hitter.
1:04:38
SPEAKER_00: Jose leaned and people like that.
1:04:40
SPEAKER_00: Jeez.
1:04:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:04:42
SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's not good.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's probably why the Pirates lost, I guess.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he's their worst hitter.
1:04:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, and and and yes, the Braves did have outstanding pitching.
1:04:52
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, guys like Don Slot and Steve Bouchel are getting more hits in that series than Barry Bonds.
1:04:57
SPEAKER_00: Well, you can't stop Steve Bouchel.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_00: You just only hope to contain him.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_01: Or Don Slot.
1:05:04
SPEAKER_01: The the real defining moment in that series comes in game five, which is a game that the Pirates win one to nothing.
1:05:11
SPEAKER_01: The Braves, twice in that game, intentionally lock Bobby Bonilla so that they can face Barry Bonds.
1:05:18
SPEAKER_01: That's how much confidence Atlanta has that Bonds they had him completely psyched out.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_00: That's yeah.
1:05:24
SPEAKER_01: This is a guy, again, at the beginning of the series says you know, that quote he said was nobody in baseball compares to me.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_01: And after game five, he's making excuses.
1:05:33
SPEAKER_01: He says, Well, baseball teams can't just depend on one person.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but other guys, other guys do pick up the slack.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_01: Jay Bell bats 414 in that series.
1:05:44
SPEAKER_01: And Steve, you mentioned Jose Lean.
1:05:46
SPEAKER_01: He actually leads the team in RBIs.
1:05:49
SPEAKER_00: So well, that's why we pay our utility uh infielder for.
1:05:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Jay Bell and Jose Lean leading the way offensively.
1:05:57
SPEAKER_01: The Pirates have a three to two lead in that series.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_01: With Game 6 and Game 7 being played in Pittsburgh, but they cannot score a run in either of those games.
1:06:05
SPEAKER_01: And once again, they watched someone else go to the World Series instead of them.
1:06:09
SPEAKER_01: And we'll get to the 92 season, and obviously we all know how that ended.
1:06:14
SPEAKER_01: But I think we all forget how disappointing that ending was in 91 because they were coming back to Pittsburgh.
1:06:20
SPEAKER_00: All they do was one at one at two.
1:06:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:06:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:06:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they and not only did they lose.
1:06:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't think they get blown out either.
1:06:26
SPEAKER_00: Weren't they like three to nothing?
1:06:28
SPEAKER_01: The game six was one to nothing.
1:06:30
SPEAKER_01: So it was literally one to nothing.
1:06:33
SPEAKER_01: And then, yes, game seven, I think, was three to nothing.
1:06:36
SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't like yeah, it wasn't like 11 to 5 or something, right?
1:06:39
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like this offensive explosion by the Braves, but it was enough, you know, it was enough the pitching.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_01: The Steve Avery pitched game six, and I believe Glavin pitched game seven, and and they just they couldn't hit the Atlanta pitchers.
1:06:53
SPEAKER_01: It was really it was a bummer because again, that 91 team was really good.
1:06:57
SPEAKER_00: I remember hating that whole like you know, tomahawk chop crap.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I hated that too.
1:07:03
SPEAKER_00: I know, and then they were like, I remember like friends of mine were like, oh, they thought Atlanta was so cool, and I was like, they're just contrary, and I don't know.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_01: Going into the next season, 1992, had a real sense of doom around it right from the start for a couple of reasons.
1:07:20
SPEAKER_01: Number one, we kind of alluded to this already, it's not a good time in Pittsburgh in general, because the city's still reeling from Steve mentioned it, the steel the still mill closures that happened, all the population loss.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, Tim, you mispronounced it, that's still mill.
1:07:36
SPEAKER_01: The still mills.
1:07:39
SPEAKER_01: And and it wasn't just bad here.
1:07:42
SPEAKER_01: That year, 1992, the national economy goes south as well.
1:07:46
SPEAKER_01: I believe that's what cost uh Bush Sr.
1:07:49
SPEAKER_01: the election that year, if I remember correctly, because it was a bad economy.
1:07:53
SPEAKER_00: No, it's because everybody liked Bill Clinton playing his sacks.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, of course.
1:07:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can't can't not vote for that.
1:08:00
SPEAKER_00: I think Bill Clinton said it's the economy, stupid.
1:08:03
SPEAKER_00: Or was that Carvel?
1:08:04
SPEAKER_00: It might have been him or Carvo.
1:08:05
SPEAKER_00: I think it might have been Carvel.
1:08:07
SPEAKER_01: Okay, but it was around that election.
1:08:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:08:09
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:08:10
SPEAKER_01: So so bad economy nationally, bad economy in Pittsburgh.
1:08:15
SPEAKER_01: Like US Air was one of the big local companies at that point, and they had a big strike that year.
1:08:20
SPEAKER_01: And then both newspapers, remember that's the both newspapers went on strike.
1:08:25
SPEAKER_01: So it just it wasn't a great time in the city in period period.
1:08:29
SPEAKER_01: For the Pirates, Bobby Bonilla leaves that offseason to sign a huge free agent deal with the Mets, which of course the Mets, that was such a great signing for them that they, you know, never regretted it.
1:08:42
SPEAKER_01: The the Pirates also uh they had a pitcher named John Smiley, who was a 20-game winner in '91, and they like unceremoniously just dump him to Minnesota for like nobody.
1:08:53
SPEAKER_01: And then Draybek and Bonds are both entering the final year of their contracts.
1:08:56
SPEAKER_01: So even before that season began, I remember thinking, like, well, this is it.
1:09:01
SPEAKER_01: Right?
1:09:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09:02
SPEAKER_01: If they don't win this season, then then we're it's the end of this era.
1:09:06
SPEAKER_01: And uh Bonds, he continues to be Barry Bonds.
1:09:10
SPEAKER_01: He he dumps his agent, uh, that guy Rod Wright, the guy who had come out in the media and said all the stuff about Barry, doesn't want to be here anymore.
1:09:18
SPEAKER_01: And that was a big deal because Rod Wright had been Bobby Bonds' agent and was a close family friend of the Bonds family.
1:09:27
SPEAKER_01: And Rod Wright says he was incredibly hurt from that.
1:09:29
SPEAKER_01: He says, quote, if someone gets too close like I did, he automatically backs away.
1:09:34
SPEAKER_01: It's a terrible way to go through life, but it's who he is.
1:09:38
SPEAKER_01: Barry Bonds continues to dominate at the plate, though.
1:09:41
SPEAKER_01: He hits 311, 34 home runs, 103 RBIs, 39 stolen bases, and wins his second National League MVP trophy in three years.
1:09:51
SPEAKER_01: Like we said, probably should have won three in a row, but that time they couldn't take it away from him.
1:09:55
SPEAKER_01: It was just too dominant.
1:09:57
SPEAKER_01: And the Pirates are once again going to play the Braves in the NLCS.
1:10:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh by this point, Bonds has already been labeled as a choker, right?
1:10:06
SPEAKER_01: Because he had choked the previous two years.
1:10:08
SPEAKER_01: Um fans say he chokes.
1:10:10
SPEAKER_01: Even around baseball, Daryl Strawberry has this quote at the time, Steve.
1:10:13
SPEAKER_01: He says, quote, he's not done anything in the postseason, he's a joke.
1:10:17
SPEAKER_01: That was Daryl Strawberry, who was another guy that was never afraid to speak his mind and who people generally didn't like a whole lot.
1:10:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh but even the fans were not real excited.
1:10:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh I I I don't know why this this sticks with me, Steve, but the night of game one of the 92 NLCS, I had to go get my hair cut.
1:10:37
SPEAKER_01: And the lady cutting my hair, I just remember her um saying, Oh, oh, playoff start tonight, game one.
1:10:44
SPEAKER_01: And I just was like, Yeah.
1:10:47
SPEAKER_01: I I I remember like I just I was like, they're gonna lose again, right?
1:10:51
SPEAKER_01: Like everybody just was like, they're gonna lose again.
1:10:54
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and no one's real excited.
1:10:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you remember feeling that way, Steve.
1:10:58
SPEAKER_00: I remember felt like this is it, and they're probably not gonna be very good after this.
1:11:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:11:05
SPEAKER_00: It was just like like you said, it was just a I don't even think it's hindsight.
1:11:09
SPEAKER_00: I just remember everybody saying, oh man, this is like yeah.
1:11:12
SPEAKER_00: If they don't do it this year, they're not gonna do it.
1:11:15
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:11:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:11:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh prior to the start of that series, Bonds makes another now infamous quote where he says, quote, I told my teammates, I'll get you to the playoffs.
1:11:23
SPEAKER_01: Now they've got to get me through the playoffs, and I'll see that we win the World Series.
1:11:28
SPEAKER_01: And I people say he was supposedly joking about that, but who knows with this guy, right?
1:11:34
SPEAKER_01: But a lot of people took that the wrong way.
1:11:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'll get you to the playoffs, but now you've got to win it for me.
1:11:40
SPEAKER_01: It's like, what, you're the best player, right?
1:11:42
SPEAKER_01: So if that was meant to be a joke, no one took it as a joke.
1:11:46
SPEAKER_01: And and sure enough, that sense of doom that 15-year-old me had at the haircut place is warranted because the Braves win three of the first four games, and Bonds, as usual, can't hit anything.
1:11:58
SPEAKER_01: He even gets booed by the crowd at the River Stadium after striking out with men on base.
1:12:03
SPEAKER_01: And and for all the external talking and treating people like like garbage, Bonds is reportedly really distraught at this point.
1:12:11
SPEAKER_01: Like he really wanted to win.
1:12:13
SPEAKER_01: And Leland says he tries to give him a pet talk.
1:12:16
SPEAKER_01: And then Bobby Bonia, who remember at this time is playing for the Mets, he even flies into Pittsburgh to try to comfort Bonds and say, hey, you know, series isn't over.
1:12:26
SPEAKER_01: Uh you guys still have another game.
1:12:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you can do this.
1:12:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, and something does click because Bonds has two hits and he makes a diving catch in game five, which the Pirates win to stay alive in the series.
1:12:39
SPEAKER_01: And then in game six, Barry Bonds hits a home run.
1:12:45
SPEAKER_01: Believe it or not, the all-time home run hitter finally hits a home run in the postseason.
1:12:49
SPEAKER_01: That was in the first inning, and it paves the way for a 13-4 Pirates blowout, which sets up game seven in Atlanta.
1:12:58
SPEAKER_01: All the momentum has shifted to the Pirates.
1:13:00
SPEAKER_01: This is it.
1:13:00
SPEAKER_01: It's finally going to happen.
1:13:02
SPEAKER_01: Barry Bonds has shed all his playoff demons.
1:13:05
SPEAKER_01: He's going to take this team to the World Series.
1:13:07
SPEAKER_01: Doug Drabick's on the mount.
1:13:09
SPEAKER_01: He throws a masterpiece for eight innings.
1:13:11
SPEAKER_01: The Pirates go into the bottom of the ninth with a two-to-nothing lead, and we all know what happens next.
1:13:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to just recap it very quickly because I can't.
1:13:21
SPEAKER_01: My emotions can't handle it.
1:13:22
SPEAKER_01: Another detailed dive into this.
1:13:24
SPEAKER_01: Basically, some guys get on base.
1:13:26
SPEAKER_01: Jose Lean makes an untimely error error.
1:13:30
SPEAKER_01: A guy named Francisco Cabrera gets a game-winning hit, and former pirate Sid Bream beats a Barry Bonds throw from left to send the race to the World Series.
1:13:39
SPEAKER_01: Like I said, not going to go into detail, way too painful.
1:13:42
SPEAKER_01: But I will say on that throw that Sid Bream was trying to score on, Bonds has positioned himself deep in left field because he didn't want a fly ball to go over his head.
1:13:52
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's like from earlier in his career.
1:13:55
SPEAKER_00: No, yeah.
1:13:56
SPEAKER_01: Because there were two outs.
1:13:57
SPEAKER_01: If if if Cabrera hits a fly ball and Bonds catches it, then game's over.
1:14:02
SPEAKER_01: Van Slick reportedly tells Bonds no move in in case he hits a ground ball so you can throw the guy out.
1:14:07
SPEAKER_01: Bonds reportedly gives Van Syke the middle finger, uh, because he's not going to listen to any Van Slick tell him how to play left field.
1:14:16
SPEAKER_01: It's it's very appropriate that the final Barry Bonds' final ever moment as a pirate is that play.
1:14:22
SPEAKER_01: Would you say, Steve?
1:14:24
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I don't know.
1:14:26
SPEAKER_00: It's it's one of the saddest moments in Pittsburgh sports history.
1:14:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:14:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean what could have been?
1:14:34
SPEAKER_00: Who would they have playing in the World Series that year?
1:14:37
SPEAKER_00: Blue Jays.
1:14:38
SPEAKER_00: And the Blue Jays ended up winning.
1:14:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:14:42
SPEAKER_01: But again, it would have been a fun series.
1:14:43
SPEAKER_01: And I think it I think it would have been one of those things, Steve, like when the when the Steelers made it to Super Bowl 30 and they lost, that was painful.
1:14:50
SPEAKER_01: But it meant something because they had redeemed losing the AFC championship game.
1:14:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:14:55
SPEAKER_01: And I and I feel like even if the Pirates lose that World Series to the Blue Jays, it uh it still means something because they had kept they had they lost the NLCS for the two years before that.
1:15:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:15:08
SPEAKER_00: The 90s were just a tough time in Pittsburgh sports.
1:15:11
SPEAKER_00: We grew up in some tough times there, Tim.
1:15:13
SPEAKER_00: There wasn't a lot of the 80s just sucked, and then the 90s were just a big tease.
1:15:18
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:15:19
SPEAKER_01: That's exactly that's a great way to describe it because what was worse, like your team never having a chance, or your team's really being good, and then you see them, you know, not realize their potential.
1:15:29
SPEAKER_00: And and that's I thought I'd rather just suck, because you know, why would we waste my time?
1:15:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, and and when we did our episode on Super Bowl 40, for for people that are the age of Steve and I, where we missed the 70s, that that was such a uh an uh watershed moment in our lives as fans because that's when it finally And I always leave out the Penguins had won in '91 and '95.
1:15:52
SPEAKER_00: They too.
1:15:53
SPEAKER_01: They did.
1:15:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:15:55
SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't like a barren desert, but then after that, the penguins lose the next year with the best team ever.
1:16:01
SPEAKER_00: So it just it just seemed like the city was jinxed after.
1:16:05
SPEAKER_01: It was a it was a bunch of gut punches.
1:16:07
SPEAKER_01: It was definitely a bunch of gut punches.
1:16:08
SPEAKER_00: And then pit football sucked, pit basketball sucked.
1:16:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:16:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean for a long time, I lose in just you know, insanely horrible ways.
1:16:20
SPEAKER_01: There was no bigger gut punch in the 90s or in the history of Pittsburgh sports than Sid Bream sliding across home plate.
1:16:27
SPEAKER_01: There just isn't.
1:16:28
SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's beyond painful.
1:16:31
SPEAKER_01: And and that's it.
1:16:32
SPEAKER_01: That's it for the pirates.
1:16:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it literally took like just the city to like recover from that sports-wise.
1:16:41
SPEAKER_00: It seemed like it took us forever.
1:16:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:16:43
SPEAKER_00: Like till you said two Super Bowl 40, what was that, 2005?
1:16:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:16:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:16:49
SPEAKER_01: I I I would agree.
1:16:50
SPEAKER_01: I think you're right.
1:16:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't think the city recovered until then.
1:16:53
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a fair, fair statement to make.
1:16:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, how many you know, AFC championship games would we lose in devastating ways?
1:17:01
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:17:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:17:02
SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about the aftermath of all this.
1:17:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh Bond signs a huge free agent deal with the San Francisco Giants, his father's team.
1:17:10
SPEAKER_01: The Giants end up offering$17 million more than what the Pirates offered, to which no one is surprised.
1:17:16
SPEAKER_01: Andy Vance Lake says, quote, the biggest travesty in the history of pirate baseball is that they could have tied up Bonds and Bonia back then for cheap money before they became free agents.
1:17:25
SPEAKER_01: They clearly had no vision of what the future of baseball was doing because of TV and how successful we could have been.
1:17:31
SPEAKER_01: We were young enough that we could have held on for four or five years more.
1:17:35
SPEAKER_01: And that is, I mean, that is a travesty because that team was really good.
1:17:40
SPEAKER_01: And yes, they lost in 90, 91, 92, but to your point about the Braves, you know, the Braves kept losing World Series, but then they eventually won one.
1:17:49
SPEAKER_01: At least they were competitive for the whole rest of the decade.
1:17:52
SPEAKER_01: And that that could have been the Pirates.
1:17:53
SPEAKER_01: It could have been Pirates Braves every year in the NLCS until we got to the end of the decade.
1:17:58
SPEAKER_01: Uh Bonds ends up playing 15 more seasons and uh is roundly booed every time he comes back to play in Pittsburgh.
1:18:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh I I mean that lasted for a long time, Steve, if I remember correctly.
1:18:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I remember it wasn't an all-star game.
1:18:13
SPEAKER_00: I remember he came out of the dugout and he kind of like ducked like, uh that was 94, I think.
1:18:17
SPEAKER_00: 94, yep.
1:18:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and he was kind of like, oh my gosh, don't boo me.
1:18:21
SPEAKER_00: And it the boos I didn't think were that bad at that all-star game.
1:18:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but but I think whenever it was just Giants versus Pirates, like people wouldn't hesitate to just he'd come up to battery.
1:18:32
SPEAKER_00: He never won a World Series.
1:18:34
SPEAKER_01: He never wins a World Series.
1:18:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh I don't think even in the postseason its stats are still pretty poor.
1:18:41
SPEAKER_00: Like even when because I think the Giants did make the postseason with him.
1:18:45
SPEAKER_01: They they did.
1:18:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean they made they made a World Series in 2002, but they lost to the Angels.
1:18:50
SPEAKER_01: So he never does win a World Series and and never never really redeems that whole playoff coker status.
1:18:58
SPEAKER_01: We talked about him coming back to Pittsburgh and people being angry.
1:19:02
SPEAKER_01: One such return to Pittsburgh ends up being particularly ugly.
1:19:05
SPEAKER_01: So there's a guy named Pete Diana, Steve.
1:19:08
SPEAKER_01: I think you know who Pete Diana is, right?
1:19:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he was a photographer of the post-gazette.
1:19:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:19:13
SPEAKER_01: He was he was a uh basically, if you see like any kind of well-known picture of the Steelers, Penguins, or pirates from the past 30 years, Pete Diana's probably the guy that took the picture, right?
1:19:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh so on the morning of April 7th, 2002, uh two men, Joseph Lang and Paul Scott, they're they're groundskeepers at PNC Park.
1:19:34
SPEAKER_01: They're driving to the stadium when their car is broadsided by an SUV, and both of those guys, those groundskeepers are tragically killed.
1:19:42
SPEAKER_01: Uh both guys had families, and neither had life insurance.
1:19:45
SPEAKER_01: So Pete Diana organizes a picture auction, a bunch of pictures, and uh the proceeds going obviously to the victims' families.
1:19:55
SPEAKER_01: And so whenever a team would come to town, the pirates would go to the team, explain what had happened.
1:20:00
SPEAKER_01: This is a tragedy, and they would ask the star players from the opposing team, could you sign some of these photographs that we're trying to auction off to raise money for these families?
1:20:12
SPEAKER_01: And the pirates say that so many teams were willing to help.
1:20:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh guys like Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Kurt Shilling, Randy Johnson.
1:20:19
SPEAKER_01: They said Sammy Sosa, Sosa, uh, in addition to signing pictures, he even sends over an autograph bat.
1:20:25
SPEAKER_01: Everybody was willing to more than happy to help.
1:20:28
SPEAKER_01: When the Giants come to town, they ask Barry Bonds, and he reportedly says, I ain't signing poop.
1:20:35
SPEAKER_01: Uh doesn't say poop.
1:20:36
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and this is Pete Diana reflecting on this incident.
1:20:40
SPEAKER_01: Quote, the sad thing is I knew he probably wouldn't sign, but we just thought, why not ask him since he played here and he knew these guys?
1:20:48
SPEAKER_01: He says, Look, I understand everybody wants something from Barry Bonds.
1:20:51
SPEAKER_01: That's why we were like, hey, these guys are dead.
1:20:53
SPEAKER_01: We're not making this up.
1:20:54
SPEAKER_01: But why should he take the time to help out a couple of families that lost their father and husband?
1:21:00
SPEAKER_01: Why should Barry give an F about anybody?
1:21:03
SPEAKER_01: Personally, I hope Barry Bonds dies.
1:21:08
SPEAKER_00: Strong words.
1:21:10
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
1:21:10
SPEAKER_01: So that's the kind of the effect, the Barry Bonds effect that he had on people.
1:21:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh Bonds, of course, later becomes embroiled in the steroid controversy on his way to the all-time home run record.
1:21:21
SPEAKER_01: To this day, he's like unofficially banned from the Hall of Fame.
1:21:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh not going to get into any of that.
1:21:27
SPEAKER_01: The Pirates, of course, put together a national, or I'm sorry, put together a North American sports record of 20 consecutive losing seasons.
1:21:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, we got that going for us, Tim.
1:21:38
SPEAKER_01: We we do.
1:21:38
SPEAKER_00: And we set a record.
1:21:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean I mean, Steve, I know, I know we've talked on the show before about like Antonio Brown and how you can't win with guys like Antonio Brown in football.
1:21:50
SPEAKER_01: Do you do you think that you couldn't win with Barry Bonds?
1:21:54
SPEAKER_01: Or do you you know, football's way more of a a team chemistry sport than baseball is obviously?
1:22:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh apparently you can't.
1:22:02
SPEAKER_00: I I don't know.
1:22:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's been jerks on teams before that have won, right?
1:22:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean the Reds had some personalities, but I don't know that they like you know, were jerks to their own teammates the way Barry Bond.
1:22:17
SPEAKER_00: Like you didn't even talk about his time in San Francisco.
1:22:20
SPEAKER_00: He didn't get along with like who was it?
1:22:22
SPEAKER_00: Was it Jeff Kent?
1:22:22
SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, like they don't I mean, so you could say, well, who's the problem?
1:22:27
SPEAKER_00: You know, is AD Vince Like and you know, RJ Reynolds and all these people are a problem, and then all of a sudden he goes to another team and he has more problems with different people.
1:22:37
SPEAKER_01: So common denominator.
1:22:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
1:22:40
SPEAKER_00: Who who's you know involved in all this?
1:22:43
SPEAKER_00: I feel bad, but you know, you wish you wish he would have, you know.
1:22:49
SPEAKER_00: It's probably what's keeping it uh out of the Hall of Fame, that as much as the steroids.
1:22:55
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
1:22:57
SPEAKER_01: Well, let' let let's end with this, because I think if there's any kind of like silver lining to the story, it's that Barry Bonds seems to have mellowed out and gained some new perspective in recent years.
1:23:07
SPEAKER_00: Well, he's been trying to coach.
1:23:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know that.
1:23:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:23:10
SPEAKER_01: And when he was asked who was to blame for his poor reputation in baseball, Bonds said, quote, me.
1:23:18
SPEAKER_01: It's on me.
1:23:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm the blame for the way I was portrayed because I was a dumbass.
1:23:22
SPEAKER_01: I was straight stupid, and I'll be the first to admit it.
1:23:25
SPEAKER_01: I was just flat out dumb.
1:23:27
SPEAKER_01: What can I say?
1:23:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to try to justify the way I acted toward people.
1:23:30
SPEAKER_01: I was stupid.
1:23:32
SPEAKER_01: No one wants to be treated like that because I was considered to be a terrible person.
1:23:36
SPEAKER_01: You'd have to be insane to want to be treated like that.
1:23:39
SPEAKER_01: It makes no sense.
1:23:41
SPEAKER_01: So that's interesting.
1:23:42
SPEAKER_01: That's an interesting self-reflection.
1:23:45
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you finally gain some perspective there.
1:23:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:23:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:23:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that's interesting.
1:23:51
SPEAKER_01: Because again, remember, everything that happened was always somebody else's fault.
1:23:55
SPEAKER_01: Even the blow-up with Kim Leland was a setup where they they tried to get him to to react so they could film it and and broadcast it everywhere.
1:24:05
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, years later he's saying it's all on him.
1:24:08
SPEAKER_01: So maybe some good growth there.
1:24:11
SPEAKER_01: He also says about his time with the Pirates quote, if it wasn't for the preparation I received in Pittsburgh, I don't think I would have been ready to succeed.
1:24:18
SPEAKER_01: He calls Jim Leland the best manager I could have had ever had to start out my career.
1:24:23
SPEAKER_01: And he publicly thanks Bill Verdon for turning him into an eight-time gold glove winner.
1:24:28
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
1:24:29
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
1:24:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know he said he always says real positive things about Jim Leland.
1:24:33
SPEAKER_00: He he definitely respects Jim Leland.
1:24:36
SPEAKER_00: So he does.
1:24:37
SPEAKER_01: And he speaks very fondly of the pirates.
1:24:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh so I I don't know.
1:24:42
SPEAKER_01: I I mean, I I hope it sounds like, you know, if if you take those comments at face value, it sounds like he's maybe gone through a lot of personal growth and he regrets the way he acted and wishes he could do it differently.
1:24:54
SPEAKER_01: It's just the whole thing's just a shame, Steve.
1:24:56
SPEAKER_01: Like you said, it's sad.
1:24:57
SPEAKER_01: Sad's the best word for it.
1:24:58
SPEAKER_01: Because this is the this is you could argue that he was the best pirate ever, right?
1:25:03
SPEAKER_01: I I he he isn't, but he could have been.
1:25:06
SPEAKER_01: And and it just it just all went south.
1:25:10
SPEAKER_01: It's it's just sad.
1:25:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's kind of a victim of his own doing.
1:25:15
SPEAKER_00: Like that's the thing.
1:25:17
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like he got hurt or anything like that, if he just would have kind of like, you know, I don't know.
1:25:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean he probably still would have left.
1:25:25
SPEAKER_00: Like the pirates still would have been too cheap to keep him.
1:25:28
SPEAKER_01: But Well well, it's sad all around, because like Van Slick said, they could have if they would have planned for the future, they could have locked him up.
1:25:36
SPEAKER_01: They could have they they could have built a decent enough team.
1:25:39
SPEAKER_01: And and like you said, the economics are such that maybe it catches up with them eventually.
1:25:44
SPEAKER_01: But the I don't know.
1:25:45
SPEAKER_00: It it just doesn't seem like it catches up with Atlanta.
1:25:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Atlanta's competitive to this day, much more than the Pirates ever have been.
1:25:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, again, a bunch of like what could have been kind of stuff.
1:25:57
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, it's it's like at some point I hope we can appreciate just what a great player he was.
1:26:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's it's almost impossible to do that without seeing A, all the hurt that he caused and all the animosity, and then B, the fact that, you know, when push came to shove in the postseason, he he just couldn't do anything.
1:26:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a shame that that's that's the way he ended up.
1:26:22
SPEAKER_00: He's like the anti-Roberto Calmeny.
1:26:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:26:26
SPEAKER_00: He's the bizarro Roberto Calmeny.
1:26:28
SPEAKER_00: He's the exact opposite of Klomeny's beloved in the city and considered this great you know, he was a very he was a great Hall of Fame player, but I I I don't know what to say about one Barry Lamar Bonds.
1:26:43
SPEAKER_00: It's nice to see that he's turned over one to the I think we ended that way.
1:26:46
SPEAKER_00: Maybe he's turned over, maybe he's realized the error of his ways.
1:26:50
SPEAKER_00: I know he has been having trouble even being a manager or hitting coach in baseball because like he's so you know between the steroids and his personality, like it's just it's very tough for him to get a break.
1:27:03
SPEAKER_01: Well, I hope everybody uh enjoyed that little kind of deep dive into the you know, psyche of Barry Bonds and that his time with the pirates.
1:27:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh good moments, bad moments, and and a bunch of regrets, unfortunately.
1:27:17
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for listening to our podcast.
1:27:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh please check us out on the web, on Facebook or Twitter.
1:27:24
SPEAKER_01: There's a bunch of links to go to Twitter where you can uh find those.
1:27:29
SPEAKER_01: You can also contact us to email.
1:27:32
SPEAKER_01: and thank you.
1:27:33
SPEAKER_01: We'll catch you next time.