Latest / The Clinical Realist / The Trust Slide Is Aimed at the Wrong Target, with Dr. Fatih Mehmet Gul

Transcript

The Trust Slide Is Aimed at the Wrong Target, with Dr. Fatih Mehmet Gul · The Clinical Realist

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Every AI vendor deck I've seen this year has a slide called Building Trust, and it's about the algorithm accuracy, explainability, bias audits.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: But my guest today has run hospitals on several continents.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: He thinks that slide is actually aimed at the wrong target.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: So the thing eroding isn't trust in the machine, it's the relationship between the people, the machines sit between.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah Matt, and this is the Clinical Realist.
• 0:26
  unknown: Dr.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Gill has spent more than 25 years in hospital leadership across many continents, Europe, the Gulf, you name it, and he's the author of Connected Care, Human Touch in Healthcare Technology, and is an honorary professor at UCL's Global Business School for Health.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: And he also hosts the Chief Healthcare Officer Podcast, which means today we have two hosts and one microphone each, so this could go crazy, right?
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's nice to have you today.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Pleasure being UTV today.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me again.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: So let's start with the moment.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: When did you first realize the pushback to AI on your wards wasn't about the technology but was about something else?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, look, we we have a problem in the healthcare today.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: As a physician, the bedside physician, and later on the healthcare executive, when I look at the evolution of the technology, AI, and then the others, first of all, we love the hype and we just jump on it.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then once we start using it, we start understanding the pros and cons.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Today, when we jump on the technology right away, sometimes what I have noticed that it's not sorting, it's not solving the problems, but itself it is becoming like a problem unless we implement it in the right way.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: So when you think about the pushback, are you seeing more patients, clinicians, or the exec team?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Where are you seeing that kind of resistance to change?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um, I have hired so many different generations of physicians.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Young physicians are coming with full speed, they are very open-minded, and they want to implement things yesterday.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: And they want to simply offer a better service for their patients.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the previous generations, even at the time of I mean COVID, I remember, I was pushing our physicians to use more the telemedicine and the other.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: And one of my pediatricians, she told me that she has four American boards, and she told me that look, I have four boards, but no one taught me how to use telemedicine, and I know I don't know how to manage my patients over the screen, which I can understand.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: But then uh the resistance it comes from many aspects.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, first of all, the regulatory part is not ready.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Some people they feel hesitant when they see such solutions.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the hospital management uh they rather create a fear instead of opening the road for our caregivers and the others.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but then at the end of the day, technology is something which makes the people's life easy, and I don't think we can stop it.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why we have seen the evolution even in our clinics.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yesterday, uh, I have seen some cardiologists who were telling us that no, the digital blood pressure, it doesn't work like this.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: I need my own puff and the cough, and then the other thing.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I I like this and I don't remember the others.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: So then things have changed dramatically.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Today we cannot stop this wave.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: It is a flood coming, and instead of focusing on the resistance and the problems, we expect our healthcare management teams to consider a connected care concept.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: What I mean, we need to listen to the stakeholders, we need to understand their needs.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Today, when we evaluate our patients, they're already having some lifestyle which is coming from the other industries.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Today you can order anything, anytime, anywhere, right?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: So then people will deliver you all the groceries and everything.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Aviation, you can order your ticket, you can buy it for any kind of reason.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Banking, I don't remember where the branches are.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I have never visited them in my life.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Up the river as well.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, so if you have the same customer coming to visit you in your clinic, and you still try to apply things from AT70s, these patients will not continue with you.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: They will look for other caregivers, they will look for other service providers.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because over there for a banking statement, you can simply download it, and when the patient comes to our hospital, we uh we tell them, Okay, tower two, go there, second floor, there's a reception for the medical records, you have to apply, and they will make it ready for you.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: And once your medical records are ready and stamped, we will call you back so then you can come and collect.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's not the healthcare what we're looking for today.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you, we are switching pediatricians for my kids, and literally, I think I have them at my desk somewhere here.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: One of the doctor's offices sent the other one flash drives and passwords for all the records.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, all right, well, kind of archaic, but here we are.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: The other doctor's office said, we don't accept USBs.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: We only accept paper.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so it took me absolutely weeks going back and forth between the two of them, and in the end, they gave me the USBs to print out the record so I could hand them to the office.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's just the most ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: But it's the reality of healthcare today is that it's not really.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't think that our our rules of logic actually apply.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's where I'm at.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the common sense that we should probably be using, it's just not working.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: So when you ask a patient to go through this labyrinth in your hospital, of course they're not gonna find it, and of course they're gonna be confused.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is simple.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we need to first think from the patient's and caregiver's point of view.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I wrote this in my book, Connected Care.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Please just think about your patient's expectations, your caregivers' expectations.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sit together with them, they will tell you what exactly they're looking for in their mobile phone, regardless of the ages.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: A 75 years old patient is coming with a chat GVT today, and then they they're showing me, Look, doctor, I have checked all these things, and these are my options that I know, and these are the things it asks me to check with you, and I want you to also communicate and talk to my ChatGBT so then I will understand what exactly is going on here.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you have such a clientele, you have such a community front of you today, and for you keeping yourself away by uh let's say considering the privacy or the data breach, XYZ is not an excuse anymore.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I mean today we need to understand, we need to stay connected with our patients, understand their lifestyle, uh, stay connected with your caregivers, understand their needs, and provide the solutions, whatever your caregiver is looking for, instead of just I mean putting the guardrails everywhere, and stay in connection with your community and the government, so then they will tell you what exactly the platform and environment they're looking for, then you will be able to implement things.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you make it in this way, you will keep the human touch, and then we will stay in touch with our patients.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Today, our patients are asking, Hey doctor, do you have your agent who could communicate with my agent?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And instead of me remembering and memorizing and telling you everything, let them communicate, and at the end you tell me and advise me what to do next.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: And this is not a fiction story anymore.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is something happening today, and people are managing their banking and other services with the same way.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: That is what we have to apply and comply.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I see charity patients in rural upstate New York still, and they come to me with not just their laundry list like they used to.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now it is exactly as you mentioned, an entire readout from ChatGPT or whatnot.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so when a tool sits between me and the patient, the interesting thing is that whatever tool I'm using, the patient isn't usually asking if the model is accurate.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're asking if I'm still the one making the call.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And no one really measures that.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: So when we think about the expectations in the executive side and administration for healthcare, and we think about the patients, who really cares about the privacy and security?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the people that are getting dinged and fined, or is it the patients who maybe are willing to give it?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because Google Maps knows everything about me and everywhere I go, and I feel okay with that.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is time for us to revise the consent forms and then redesign all these patient uh privacy and data privacy points.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because today I I meet with the patients who are ready to share each and everything publicly from their side.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: They are, I mean, those young generation, they share what time they sleep, uh, what time they wake up, what they eat, where they go, and uh what they read.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: They are happy to share each and everything.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: They feel sick and they share everything, they share the medication.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, privacy understanding of our generation and then the next generation is completely different.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And from this aspect, I think as healthcare industry, we also need to update ourselves and try to understand our patient clientele and make things easy for them.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: And some of the hospitals they are making this happen, they have mobile applications and they are sharing all the data with the patient, and they have an agent inside which is not the rocket science today, which lets patients to uh have a conversation and check the things.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: One thing what I have seen was a pharmacy solution.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Today, you know, I know very well we give the prescription to our patients, and when they go to the pharmacy, the pharmacy counseling doesn't take more than 30 seconds.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Take this, take this, take this.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: There's no time to do it, right?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: No time at all.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, the most vulnerable community in this aspect, either children or the elder, because they need another person to explain them how to take this medication, and they the solution what the hospital has provided, there's an agent and there's a WhatsApp.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: So at any time when you're at home, you can simply communicate with the pharmacy, ask about the usages or side effects and the other thing.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, this is what we call connected care.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell you something: the small grocery shop at the corner next to our house already applying such solution.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: But why not the hospitals?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Why not such sophisticated organizations?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good question.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when we think about it, what does the physician-patient relationship do that the AI algorithm can't replicate or shouldn't try to?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you feel is that line?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever happens, whichever the tool we implement, uh there is no uh replacement to tapping the back or holding the hand and looking at the patient face to face, eye to eye.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is the human part.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, people will never visit us, right?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: They want to come, they want to see the confidence in your eyes, they want to believe in your judgment, and they want to continue things together with you.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: We are still human beings.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Technology will get evolved today, AI, tomorrow, BI, the next day, Z AI, so many other things.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: But then this human connection and relationship is something it is something that you cannot replace.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: So this will stay, and AI and solution providers should not, I believe, touch to this point and leave it as it is.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we need the solutions who could take all this admin, I mean, workload and the burden and other kind of things from us, take the notes, but instead leave time to us that we can spend more time with my patients.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: If it is even five minutes.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know so many hospitals today are decreasing the OPD slow times, but within this, let the agent, let the technology manage my 10 minutes for all these documentations and the other things and claims XYZ.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: But leave me five clean, good time to spend with my patients, which I believe everyone will appreciate that.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about the uncomfortable other side of that.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Where is the human relationship actually the problem?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And where would patients get better care from less of us?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the human part, I don't think it could be a problem, but it is something that we have to balance it well.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because one thing we have noticed, especially after the COVID, the demand to the healthcare has dramatically increased, and we have also the aging population.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, we as the caregivers, we are also human beings, and we want to balance the things.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: We need to work within the certain hours for the best efficiency, and then after these work hours, we should not let neither human part nor the technology to abuse the caregivers' lives.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to see how doctors at 10 pm in the hospital still working on the documentation and then the kind of claims XYZ.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, we need to also treat them as human beings because at the end of the day, whatever the industry is going to have, we still need these human beings.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: By 2030, in US itself, we need tens of thousands of additional doctors and hundreds of thousands of additional nurses to close the gap.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to thank the rest of the world.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to still keep these people on the job with a clean mind without a burnout.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now I know you've bought, sold, run hospitals all over Europe, the Gulf, you name it.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: When you think about the same technology, three different hospital cultures, I know your book calls this the human layer.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me about tools that have worked in one system but died in another.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: What what killed those?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, every community has a different technology behavior.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: We need to understand, first of all, uh, the very close community in the catchment area of this particular hospital.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the hospitals we have implemented the kiosk system.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh we were thinking that it will help people to get a better service, but instead this kiosk became kind of a barrier, and then people did not find this as a solution but as a frustration.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: So then in another hospital where we have so many Techno Savia people living around us, we created the kiosk and we created the uh mobile application as well, and they were quite happy even to make the payment on the kiosk and payment on the mobile application.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: So at the end, I believe it is mainly about the community and clientele that we're dealing with, because in some areas you have the I mean elder population higher than the rest, so you have to be careful in your technology implementation and service modeling.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I always recommend one thing, and in my book, I also explained that one.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: We need to create kind of a patient journey map from home back to home and create the touch points over there and identify the solutions based on our target community, and share this with your caregivers and the patient experience teams, and they will guide you in a fantastic way.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Then you will see that these investments what you make to the technology will not waste it, but at the same time, it will be an amazing solution to increase the patient loyalty.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: So just this past week I went to get some blood work done, and it was the first time I'd gone into a lab where, first of all, I was the youngest person there, yay.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: But second of all, there was no staff at the front desk.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: It was only kiosk.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I was very interested in that.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, this is this is interesting, this is great.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Went up to the kiosk, put on my stuff, good to go.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: But at the kiosk next to me, there was a gentleman who was frustrated, kept going through, and he actually left with half of his information still up on the screen.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Hey, do you need help?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: And at first he said, No, I'm good, I'll just talk to someone, but there was no one to talk to.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: So after I was done checking myself in, I said, Hey, I'm happy to help you.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And what it turned out is that there was an error.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: He needed a different ID card, but the error message was so small, I could barely read it myself.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: So he had no idea what to do, and there was no one there to help him.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So while I love the idea of, oh, we've just essentially automated the entire front office for the patient, it didn't work for this patient.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: So if I hadn't kind of helped him with the check-in, I don't know who would have.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: He may have been sitting there forever at this point.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is what exactly we call as disconnected care.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe it is something that we need to change to the connected care.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Those people who planned this service did not think through all these details and did not take it into consideration when they were building it up.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: But then again, we don't want to leave everything to the engineers with all the respect.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it could happen also on the EMR solutions.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure I mean you're using a couple of them, use a couple of them too.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: And when I take any kind of EMR solution as a physician, when I sit in front of the screen, sometimes it comes to me very complex.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to move from one top to another, where to ask, the the results, the reviews, the diagnosis, the codes, and then the other thing.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: So again, it is very simple, and I think we can learn this from the other industries again here.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: We just want those developers to stay in touch with the end user, say it patients, say it caregivers, and build it and implement it and offer it accordingly.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: So then it will be the right solution for everyone.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: I always say, like, if I had to open up a manual for my iPhone, there's no way I would buy it.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably why I can't move to an Android because I have no idea how it works, right?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: We've got the diehards.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I've run product design and development for a long time.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think unfortunately, when we think about real user feedback and we think about how we can actually make patient-centered applications, that's the first thing to get cut.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're in economic times, and the first thing that gets cut from a software development perspective is outreach to real users, outreach to real buyers, and actually bringing that feedback back in.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's a lot of smart people putting things together, but I'm not like the other patient at that kiosk.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have two different needs, and when we build for the 80%, it may build for 80% that includes me, or it might include 80% that includes him.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the difference because from a technology perspective, on the regulatory side, we have to put certain things in.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: From a privacy and security side, we have to put certain things in, or else we can't launch it.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I think a lot of times people use the iterate and kind of move forward thought process as an excuse to say we're just going to shove it out there and maybe we'll put in the feedback from the real users.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Very true.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to make things complex.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when we say human touch, we just want to leave it to the patient-centric position.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when we look at our ages, in the secondary school, we were having in our school something called computer lab.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we were going there and then they were teaching us how to use the computer lab.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: We definitely had computer lab.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Here you go.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I have never seen any education course how to use the iPad or how to use the iPhone or the mobile app phones.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: What they did, they made it in a human-touch way, and they made it in a way that humans can understand it easily and can use it immediately, even three years old or 83 years old.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: That is something we're looking for from our technology providers in healthcare.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: When you offer something, there shouldn't be any need for additional further information or courses or technology implementation sessions and the others.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, today we need something like a six-month for the EMR education for our great doctors.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Who has this kind of time to stop your clinic and go back to the courses and did the instead?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Just sit together with them, understand the flow and create it, and this will be the connected care at the end of the day.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: It feels easy to say that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: No one has money.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have to submit for regulations because other than privacy and HIPAA, things like that, we don't have to do the quality measures because we're at the bottom of the tank, right?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it means that I don't have to ask people if they're a smoker a hundred times in one visit.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: The nurse can do it once on intake.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm sure that you've been asked a gazillion times throughout every doctor you see if you're a smoker and you're like, for the love of goodness, I no, no.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because of all the regulations and where they're trying to connect it.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think from my perspective, if we didn't have all the regulations on top, all the measures and things of that sort, it would probably be a lot more patient-centric.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Alright, so time for some lightning questions.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: So if a health system leader accepted your premise tomorrow, read your book, and was like, yes, what's the first thing that changes in how they evaluate an AI tool?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: It is easy.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, I created something like human touch gap analysis.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then we want to just understand who the user is, and then we want also the reader and then the healthcare leader to understand the process itself at the beginning.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: Then once you uh identify these things, implement it, and then there are some certain steps after the implementation about the efficiency of this tool, and then the acceptance by the community, and then the outcomes, the expected outcomes, because that's something what you have to design from the beginning of the process.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Then you can understand the gap over the if it really works for you and then for the end user.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it is not just for the AI.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to limit it for the AI itself, it is for any technology today, and we want people to consider this from this aspect.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: AI is different, it's a tool, it transforms itself.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to be also careful uh by putting the guardrails because AI will never stay as plain software, it could go from one direction to another unless you tell uh to the software under which limitations it should work.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: So these are the points I could recommend our healthcare leaders to focus on.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me uh actually understand what the problem is you're trying to solve is really important.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of times people focus on the tool or the technology.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: The worst case scenario for me is always some C-suite executive from a hospital system goes to a conference, sees something shiny, and says, We're gonna do this, but it's not actually solving a problem people care about.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think from a design perspective, that matters too.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is one question every CEO should ask a vendor that nobody asks?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Again, uh, I think I'm going to touch the same point.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: What exactly the problem we're going to solve here?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: This should be the main question around any kind of uh solution uh we need to bring.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you don't have a good answer for that, you have a problem.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: As you said, sometimes it's coming from someone who has seen it, a healthcare leader in a conference.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: And Scott, I know Scott, Scott Packer, he always brings us something new in the conferences, or it could be another I mean physician.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: And physician hears something, and then they immediately bring it to the table.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Then we just want to question this.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: And another important thing, we have created something called supply chain committee in our hospital, and uh we have a very strong IT participant, and we also ask to this person to check things from the technical point, and we have RCM in the room, and we have strategy in the room, and we have finance in the room, so then we also need to hear the other brains, let them also evaluate and tell us, and we should not rush uh much, especially nowadays.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Every day I receive at least four or five new vendors reaching out to me.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then they're just telling me we sort such things, and the others come on, I mean, let's go step by step.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Don't rush.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: I agree, I appreciate that.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: One thing I see a lot of folks doing is AI pilot after AI pilot after AI pilot, and I call this pilotitis.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really the infection of us doing constant pilots and never actually scaling it.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: So when you think about the metrics around our pilots, what's one metric you would add to every AI pilot that hopefully would prevent pilotitis?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Again, my concept is all about the stakeholder engagement.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: I want uh them to put a stakeholder mapping over there.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Who are the stakeholders of this particular solution and then what our stakeholders are thinking about it?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Let's create something like a uh I mean spider uh map and then understand where the filled parts and where still we have the gap over there.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because if the stakeholders are not going to see the solution, are not satisfied, I'm afraid I have seen so many solutions invested and simply waiting over there doing nothing.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean in our our ORs especially, it's like a lunar park.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: We have so many, I mean, great tools not used again from the same problem.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this has been a wonderful conversation.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Where can people find you and the book?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again for having me.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to have a physician-to-physician conversation like that.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: They can find me on my book's website, connected.care, and in addition, my personal website, fatihmehemedgul.com, and I'm very active on the LinkedIn.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: They can reach out, they can follow, and I'll be very happy to exchange ideas and learn from them.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Dr.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Gill.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: The human relationship isn't a soft concern, it's an adoption risk, and nobody's measuring it.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's the work.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: So if this episode made you rethink an AI rollout you're planning, send it to the person who owns that decision.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah Matt, this is the clinical realist, and I'll see you next time.