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Indie Film Contracts 101: Protecting Your Project from Legal Nightmares · Indie Film Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Indie Film Podcast. I'm Vic.
0:02
And I am Chuck this week we're looking at some of the legal
0:05
hurdles you might run into on a film set, like some red flags
0:08
you should probably avoid that you might see in a contract or
0:11
how AI could be changing image releases.
0:15
But. 1st, we would like to talk about this week's sponsor, which
0:18
is the Indie Film Podcast newsletter.
0:20
That's right, we have a newsletter available, which
0:22
means that all the items that we talked about, such as my
0:25
favorite shot list or Chuck's actual audition session file for
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editing this podcast, are available to you for free.
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You can go to indiefilmpodcast.com to sign up.
0:35
On to the legal talk. To help us, we have special
0:37
guest Ellen Smith. Thanks for joining us.
0:39
She's going to share a unique perspective that she has as a
0:42
filmmaker as well as a lawyer. You likely know her from popular
0:46
shows such as What Would You Do? But Ellen is no stranger to
0:49
indie films, features and shorts, from dramas to Friday
0:53
the 13th films. Let's be honest Ellen, you might
0:57
be on every single IMDb page there is.
0:59
Oh my goodness. Could be, could be.
1:01
So can you share some red flags? Let's start there, Ellen, can
1:04
you share some stories about some red flags and contracts
1:07
that you've heard of? Or absolutely, maybe even a film
1:10
that gets the the writing department didn't get the the
1:14
legalities correct. That would never have open a
1:17
film. They always do their research
1:19
and. Obviously I'm not your lawyer,
1:21
so this is not legal advice, right?
1:23
I have to say that on every. I don't know, you feel like
1:26
you're not a lawyer unless you say that.
1:28
Yeah. So red flags, red flags
1:30
especially for actors have been coming up a lot in actor
1:33
contracts and then we've been seeing them.
1:35
But probably the biggest one, which is the topic of the day,
1:38
right? We're talking about AI.
1:41
We're talking about having your image in perpetuity.
1:45
And that is, that is one of the biggest red flags I think people
1:47
need to look out for. So when you say like they have
1:50
your image in perpetuity, like the contract tells them we own
1:54
you like Conglomo from Morocco's modern.
1:56
Life or I mean, essentially, yeah, like you are having to
2:00
focus on, you know, reading your releases that you're you're
2:04
signing when you're on set. And it used to be that was the
2:07
traditional way of doing it. You know, we own your image and
2:10
perpetuity throughout the universe and and that was that
2:13
was OK because we didn't know as lawyer, you didn't know.
2:17
So when I'm drafting these for people, you didn't know what
2:19
type of technology was going to be developed.
2:22
And so they specifically did it. We did it on purpose because
2:26
it's like, well, we need to make sure that streaming platforms
2:29
are covered or, you know, different things that we didn't
2:32
know would happen. However, people I don't think
2:35
people predicted this. AII mean some people did you
2:38
know. Yeah.
2:39
But some people knew. Some people knew.
2:41
Looking at you creators. Careful out there.
2:44
So yeah, we actually ran into, we were trying to just
2:46
distribute our feature film Stockton to Table Rock, and we
2:49
had an issue where it was like we owned the rights of this
2:52
project in perpetuity throughout the universe.
2:56
It literally said that in the contract.
2:57
Which is really funny. Drafted it before.
2:59
We didn't, we didn't, we didn't sign it.
3:02
But it was one of those things too, where they owned the the
3:05
rights to sequels for the the IP then, which was a little
3:10
terrifying because when you think about that, I mean, I
3:13
don't know what the ramifications would be, but if
3:15
we get a whole bunch of AI made films, they might be able to
3:18
leverage the image releases that we that we had the actor sign.
3:22
Oh, absolutely. And then make an entire stocked
3:25
into Table Rock 2 through a computer system and do their
3:28
best to to make money on that, Yeah.
3:30
Yeah. And that's I mean, that's a real
3:32
concern honestly. And, and I think about like the
3:35
commercials or different things that I've done in years past and
3:39
just having that, you know, phrase because you signed it.
3:41
I mean, and why not, you know, you got your, you got your
3:44
$50.00 for the day. Nice.
3:46
This is important. You got paid 50 bucks?
3:50
What kind of sets are you working on?
3:51
They were they were big. I mean, don't don't expect that,
3:54
but yeah. So that that honestly does
3:57
happen. And I actually did have a client
4:00
in recent years who used to live, you know, locally moved
4:03
down to the big city, Los Angeles, and they had used his
4:08
image as on a commercial for like, what not to do.
4:14
Oh, and he's he's like a professional actor down in Los
4:17
Angeles. Oh my gosh.
4:19
And he was like, this is hurting my career, what can we do about
4:22
it? And I'm just looking at the
4:23
release. I'm like, MMM.
4:25
Sorry, nothing. Dang, so basically they made him
4:28
look bad on camera directly relating to what his profession
4:33
is like. How not to act?
4:35
Yes, well, it was more like how not to make media or local
4:40
commercials. Oh my gosh.
4:42
That still feels directly related to his.
4:44
Career. I agree that's unfortunate
4:47
demand letter and they did take it down.
4:49
Oh, they didn't have to though. Oh.
4:51
Nice. Well, I'm glad that they
4:52
listened. Yeah, actually it's maybe it's
4:54
just because you're intimidating in letter.
4:55
I'm sure it is. And in person, like, I'm just,
4:58
you know, an intimidating person.
4:59
To well, good get that removed. And that's also unfair.
5:01
I'm going to point out too, because if you are an actor and
5:04
you're you're acting in a spot and it's something like that,
5:07
not how to do media. That's not your job.
5:11
When you're in the acting role, you're not writing anything.
5:14
No, you're just reading the lines and you're reading them
5:16
believably. And it's that.
5:17
But that could damage your reputation if you do something
5:20
like that because then people might associate you with bad
5:23
acting when it's like, no, I was acting well to get this exact
5:26
thing well. Accomplished.
5:28
The really frustrating thing is it had nothing to do with that.
5:31
They just found some old news footage and they're like, Oh
5:34
yeah, we can take this, we can scrub it, we can make it look
5:37
bad. Oh my God.
5:38
Wasn't even the basis. I don't even remember what it
5:40
was advertising originally. Oh my God, but.
5:42
It wasn't even the basis of the commercial like I'm trying
5:45
because that would make sense, OK.
5:46
Right. Yeah, you know, but yeah, no, it
5:49
was something complete. Was like, you know, advertising
5:51
for dog food or something. It was something he literally
5:53
did not consent to doing that suddenly they were like, well,
5:56
you did this other commercial, but now we can reuse this to
6:01
emphasize how poorly you did on something.
6:03
Yeah. Whether or not he did poorly,
6:05
you can always cut things to look bad.
6:06
Didn't you do that before, Chuck, when we had Bradley?
6:10
Badly. No, Never.
6:13
I've never made a bad edit in my entire life, no.
6:15
No, you can go back. Look through the history of some
6:18
of my editing and you can find some stuff that was not the
6:20
best. Bradley Elliott Norton, your
6:22
brother was on and was talking about how if you cut it right,
6:25
you could make Michael Jordan look like the worst basketball
6:28
player. And so you you did find him
6:30
missing a shot. Oh yes, yes, we did that on a
6:32
vertical video where the joke was that that you can actually,
6:37
regardless of somebody's skill, if they do it enough, you can
6:40
find bad examples of them. And so I did find an example of
6:43
Michael Jordan breaking in a wide open layup and is he shot a
6:47
lot of shots. So you can find him brick and
6:49
shots. Not as many as like some of the
6:51
other players but it was wild. That really is fascinating.
6:56
I'd done this, you know, it was a reality show where I was just
7:00
auditioning for it and it was called My Man Can.
7:04
And so it was this whole thing. We got up to network.
7:08
I made my husband do it. So that was it was sort of
7:11
torturous because he would have to do all the horrible things.
7:14
Oh nice. I would just have to bet on
7:16
whether he could. Oh, this sounds.
7:17
Like a fun show. Oh, that's a delightful show.
7:20
I thought it was awesome. Also shout out shout out to your
7:23
husband. Good sport.
7:25
It was like one of them was cockroaches.
7:27
And the studio was, you know, interviewing me and said, well,
7:30
how many cockroaches do you think, you know, he could eat?
7:32
And I was like, eat, Yeah, because it was the thing, right.
7:36
And so I'm. Like there's this fear factor,
7:38
so early fear. Factor.
7:39
But I didn't have to do the things, I just had to bet on
7:41
what he would. OK, what was the over?
7:44
Under. So I was like 50.
7:46
I think he could eat 50. He's very strong.
7:49
His strong stomach. I feel like he could do this.
7:51
Wow. Yeah.
7:52
And so, I mean, we ended up getting up to network approval
7:56
and then they sent us the contract.
7:58
Oh, did you have to eat cockroaches though?
8:00
We didn't get to that. Part OK, because we couldn't
8:03
sign the contract. I mean, the contract is this
8:06
thick and it essentially could make them change anything about
8:12
you. You know, they could change you.
8:14
They could make you look horrible and they could, you
8:18
know, just do all of these. Things like right to alter your
8:21
appearance or right to cut it in a way that like, can they tell
8:24
you to cut your hair or can they tell you we're going to cut this
8:27
so you look like you're demonic and horrendous?
8:30
It was basically cutting the footage that they get from you
8:34
to make you look like you're abusive, to make you look.
8:37
I mean, just changing things, rewording things in your mouth
8:41
like doing. I mean, it was that thick.
8:42
Whoa. And I was going through it and I
8:44
was still hopeful, you know, because I was just like, come
8:46
on, I want to be on a reality show.
8:48
And I went through and I, I went through the 1st 3 or 4 and I was
8:52
like, yeah, we can't. No, I suppose with your law firm
8:54
too, you got to be careful with how you're presented probably in
8:58
the public. And that's that's wild.
9:01
And all you indie film makers out there.
9:02
I think it's kind of fun sometimes when you have a a
9:04
friend or a family member that has zero clue on how editing
9:09
works and they will believe things like on reality shows or
9:14
Oh my gosh, isn't that such a horrible person?
9:17
And as a filmmaker, you're thinking to yourself, well, it
9:19
kind of depends about how many camera angles and and then when
9:23
they switched camera angles. So they definitely could have
9:25
spliced some words in there or went to somebody else.
9:27
Especially if it's like AJ cut or an L cut, like you you it's
9:30
footage of the person but like their voice is coming from
9:33
somewhere else and you're like you don't know.
9:35
That's off screen. What sentence that was they
9:37
could have. Mashed that together, that could
9:38
have been said two hours before the first part of that phrase.
9:41
And it's it's important to to understand that, especially
9:44
nowadays. Yeah, on the topic of AI, yeah,
9:48
it's not always easy to tell what's actually real in front of
9:51
you anymore. Well, and the other thing that
9:52
they would do too is like any money that you made based on the
9:56
film or based on the TV show, the reality show, and they were
10:00
entitled to it. Wait.
10:02
And they did it in a very broad sense.
10:05
So like, essentially, if you got, you know, done making your
10:09
reality show, you go back, you couldn't find a job, you start
10:12
working for McDonald's, they're like, oh, you were on that
10:15
reality show, right? Yeah, I was, you know, OK,
10:18
great. We'll hire you.
10:19
They could take all of your money from that.
10:22
I mean technically in a very expansive reading of the
10:25
contract, but. Because it wasn't specifically
10:27
spelled out like that. Why would you ever leave
10:29
yourself open to that risk? Exactly.
10:32
I mean, it's terrifying. And then once, you know, they
10:35
knew we were lawyers, by the way.
10:36
So. And they're like, oh, well, this
10:39
is a standard contract. They always say that.
10:42
Yeah. And it's like, OK, well, you
10:44
don't care. We're lawyers.
10:45
Own all my money forever, like an ventured servant.
10:48
Yeah, that's crazy. And, and I've seen it.
10:51
I know the the guy who was married to the gal who had all
10:54
the babies like the Octomom. Oh yes.
10:57
I remember that show I. Don't even know.
10:59
No it was the one with she was married and they had like I
11:03
can't even remember now. It wasn't the Octa mom.
11:05
OK, but it was some other, yeah, very similar reality show where
11:09
they also focused on how many babies can one person have.
11:12
SEPTA mom, I don't know how you do.
11:15
What's 9 Nova Mom? Nova Mom.
11:17
The sequel to Octa Mom. So he wrote a book and they were
11:21
like, thanks. Oh my gosh, that's all their.
11:25
Money. They ended up taking all of the
11:26
profits in the. Lawsuit.
11:28
Well, yeah, but if if you're that popular and then you have a
11:31
media personality and it's like, no, we actually own.
11:33
That's nuts. Yeah, that's nuts.
11:35
So there's lots and lots of pitfalls.
11:38
But there's a lot, yeah. So don't be too aggressive out
11:40
there because just because you make it in something that ends
11:44
up being popular doesn't mean that you'll get rich off of it
11:46
essentially. Yeah.
11:48
There's there's one other thing I wanted to mention that it.
11:50
Just like talk to a lawyer. Yeah, exactly.
11:52
Talk to a lawyer before before you sign something if it seems
11:54
like it's going to be that invasive because it might not be
11:57
worth it and maybe they'll change the contract if they want
11:59
you that badly. Exactly.
12:01
Yeah, you reminded me of you reminded me of Hollywood
12:04
accounting and I had to look up like one of the the best
12:07
examples of Hollywood accounting and that's David Pross, who was
12:10
Darth Vader in the original Star Wars trilogy.
12:13
Like, yeah, he basically didn't make any back end money on any
12:17
of the Star Wars films because technically the Star Wars
12:21
original trilogy was a net loser.
12:25
So he signed on for net prop profits instead of gross
12:27
profits. And so the the poor guy didn't
12:31
get any points on the back end. Because in Hollywood, what they
12:34
can do is they can make another shell corporation and then bill
12:38
the the studio will bill the film endlessly to make it look
12:42
like it's just always hemorrhaging cash, even if it
12:45
gets billions of dollars in sales.
12:47
And a lot of successful businesses do that that that
12:49
also happens a lot in my divorce cases.
12:51
Oh. I own my own business, but I
12:54
mean, it's the same thing. It's it's it's shocking what
12:57
they can do, Yeah. On that so if you get a if you
13:00
get a contract where it's net and you're excited about it
13:04
because you think that this film might go somewhere and just be
13:06
careful and might not mean any money for.
13:09
You expenses. There's so many.
13:11
Expenses. So many expenses.
13:12
All I'm hearing right now is that we really should have
13:14
talked to Ellen before we started this business.
13:17
These microphones were about $4000 a piece.
13:21
Sure they were. Yeah, or at least that's what
13:25
you're billing Indie Film Podcast to use to rent them.
13:28
Yeah, it's just a rental. Yeah, Yeah, yeah.
13:30
That's. What the 4000 it's a rental per
13:32
day. I mean yes, you could buy ten of
13:34
them, but it's just more convenient to rent it since it's
13:37
in this in the location. It's all about convenience.
13:39
Yeah, sometimes that's a little bit more that it's, you know,
13:42
you're gonna rescue, run. Yeah, are you buying salsa or
13:45
are you buying veggies? You know you pay for the
13:48
convenience. So you were talking before we
13:52
started recording Ellen about Double Jeopardy, which is a
13:55
movie from the 90s that I thought was kind of funny
13:57
because anytime I used to watch films as a kid or even still
14:02
today, it's like, was the writing accurate?
14:05
Did they actually cover the movie and do what would happen
14:09
in reality? And then the film Double
14:11
Jeopardy is a famous example where they get all the
14:13
legalities incorrect. They do, but I love the idea of
14:17
it. It's sort of glorious.
14:19
So that's a 1999 film starring Ashley Judd and Tommy Lee Jones.
14:23
And, and I really loved it. I did.
14:25
And I was, let's see, 99. Yeah, I was.
14:27
It was my third year in law school.
14:29
And I remember watching it and was like Double Jeopardy.
14:32
It's a it's a situation where Ashley Judd got set up her
14:37
husband. They're spoilers.
14:38
Sorry. It's from 99.
14:41
If you haven't watched it yet, this is not going to be what
14:43
ruins it for you. I hope it actually inspires you
14:45
to watch the film because it is a It's a fun one.
14:48
It's a fun. Film.
14:49
It's a good film. And So what happened then is she
14:51
got uncharged and convicted with murder of her husband.
14:56
But really, he'd faked his own death.
14:59
It was this whole thing. And then he went on to let, you
15:02
know, get change his identity, live with his, you know,
15:06
mistress and raise their child. And then later, you know, she
15:11
tries to escape because she has to get back to her kiddo.
15:14
And Tommy Lee Jones essentially eventually helps her.
15:18
And there's a situation where she ends up having to shoot her
15:21
husband again. It's really in self-defense.
15:24
But she he's he's like, as a lawyer would say yes, yeah, you
15:27
know, but he's like, oh, you, you know, you're going to get in
15:30
so much trouble if you kill me. And she's like, no, actually
15:33
double double jeopardy. And I'm not going to get charged
15:37
because I've already served time for you, which turned out to be
15:41
not right this. Is not how it works.
15:43
So if you get charged for killing someone because they
15:47
fake their own death, and then you find out that they're
15:49
actually alive and you served that time already, you can.
15:53
If you kill them again, quote UN quote again, then you could
15:56
still get time for it, yes, And the.
15:58
Problem with it is that it is different crimes technically, so
16:02
the proper thing to do would be, you know, going in back and
16:06
absolving her of the first one and then charging her with the
16:10
second one. And I'm like, really?
16:13
That's way more boring. Yeah, that's not an exciting.
16:16
Movie and it's aggressive and I figured self-defense will get
16:20
off on the second one. I'd I'd take that one to jury
16:22
trial every time. So right on.
16:24
Yeah, OK. But I do have one question
16:25
though. Yeah.
16:26
Is there any world where that happens and you serve time?
16:35
Maybe it wasn't like a murder conviction.
16:37
Maybe it was like manslaughter, something where there's an end
16:39
date on your sentence. You serve the full sentence.
16:41
Yeah. And then you find out they're
16:44
alive. You do kill them, perhaps in
16:46
like self-defense or something like that.
16:48
Is there any world where they would vacate or dismiss the the
16:51
previous charges? But then if even if they convict
16:55
you for the new one, could they go with time served like you
16:58
like they already served like 10-15 years for this?
17:01
I do love that, and it's very nuanced.
17:04
Know if that would work? I feel like as a defense
17:07
attorney, that would be my number one argument.
17:10
Right, like they already served. 15 years, Oh my gosh, you know,
17:12
and you get they'd probably have filed a civil suit in between
17:16
there. I mean, maybe.
17:17
I mean, this guy had like millions of dollars.
17:19
I mean, there's just a complex. There's a lot.
17:21
There's a lot to. Process, especially if he's
17:23
rich. There's going to be so many
17:24
things to unpack. Well then what is a good double
17:26
jeopardy example? Or you can't.
17:28
Not that I'm saying that you should be telling anyone how to
17:31
like, be able to commit a crime and then get away with another
17:35
one. It's it's tricky, but well, so
17:37
double double jeopardy attaches when you start your the jury
17:41
trial. So once the jury is empanelled,
17:45
that is your the start of double jeopardy.
17:48
So it it just have to be very almost identical.
17:52
So you couldn't, you know, a lot of times where there's the
17:55
statute of limitations someone gets, an example would be
18:00
someone gets charged with like a drug offense and for whatever
18:04
reason, you know, the cop is not able to testify or the lead
18:07
witness is not able to testify. You started the jury trial, the
18:11
prosecution can't find them. That's when double jeopardy
18:16
attaches. So you can.
18:17
Just go do all the drugs. That's when you can go do all
18:20
the drugs. Sell all the drugs.
18:21
But essentially you'd, it would have to be just if, if they
18:25
couldn't prove their case, you know, that's why they murder
18:27
witnesses. That's what I was going to ask.
18:30
I was like, So what you're saying is we just need to kidnap
18:33
the witness because witness tampering is also a very serious
18:36
offense. It is, it is.
18:38
But that that is why like in these mob shows and and like,
18:42
that's why they do it because once you get charged, you start
18:46
the jury trial, the jury's impaneled, you start the things
18:48
they can't find the witness they have to dismiss because they
18:51
don't have enough evidence against.
18:52
And then you can't be charged again for that you.
18:54
Can be charged and you should be charged with doing anything to
18:58
to witnesses. And so then you know it's it's
19:02
just as bad. But that's why the monsters
19:03
would go after the witness. They couldn't recharge it
19:07
because of double jeopardy. OK, well now I learned now how
19:11
that works. You didn't know that.
19:12
I didn't understand hard to bleach.
19:14
I didn't quite understand double Jeopardy.
19:16
I thought it was just like the the categories changed and then
19:18
the dollar values doubled. That was a bad joke.
19:22
I'm really sorry everybody. That on the auto they're like,
19:25
you don't understand how double jeopardy like applies and he's
19:28
like, I'm sorry, what is it's like no.
19:33
Jeopardy is different. Different.
19:35
Yep. Very cool.
19:36
Form of a question please. So do you have any examples?
19:39
I kind of want to talk a little bit about how you have basically
19:43
two professional careers, right? And a lot of us that are doing
19:47
indie film making have to balance, and I would imagine
19:51
that you have two very demanding work.
19:55
I don't know. I feel like I know a lot of
19:57
attorneys that are like, I just have so much free time.
20:00
I don't know what to do with myself.
20:04
Yes, yes. And it is, it is remarkably
20:07
challenging, but I think balance is the wrong word anymore.
20:11
Like they always talk about, you know, life work balance.
20:13
It's not a balance. It's always extremely
20:16
disproportional. So when I'm working on acting,
20:20
if I have a film or if I have something that I'm working on,
20:23
it's it my entire being, my whole head, all of it is in
20:27
that. So it's more about like shifting
20:30
and and then same with the legal work.
20:32
When I'm doing a trial, when I'm preparing for hearings, it's
20:34
like I have to be 100% that way. And so it doesn't really
20:39
balance, but somehow it kind of seems to work out.
20:43
I don't know how the universe, like, balances itself, but a lot
20:47
of times I'm able to like, really switch focuses and
20:50
especially in the type of law I do, which is personal injury
20:53
law, you're able to sort of manage your calendar a little
20:58
bit. And I also have amazing law
21:01
partners who are just, you know, remarkable at their jobs.
21:06
And so I'm like, hey, I got cast in a feature film and they're
21:09
like, OK, you know, And they know.
21:11
Oh, OK, they're so sweet. They just like they back me up
21:14
and. OK, So there's like, so you're
21:17
so the, the attorney work is like more of an ebb and flow
21:20
probably like all of a sudden the fire hose, the fire hose
21:23
just like is like on full bore. And then you can wait for it to
21:26
like slow down to a trickle and be like, now I'm going to go act
21:28
in this thing for a couple weekends.
21:31
Yeah, except for you don't really get to wait because both
21:34
things kind of strike when they strike.
21:37
If I had. Because, you know, it's like you
21:39
audition and it's like, oh, you got cast, you know, we're
21:41
filming next week for like 10 days and it's like, oh, OK.
21:45
Oh, I have one hearing, you know.
21:47
So because usually don't really get a plan when you get the
21:50
acting gigs. No.
21:52
Yeah, that's true. It'd be nice if you.
21:53
Could. Oh my gosh, right.
21:54
But you just don't get that much notice on it.
21:56
Yeah, the state of the, but you also, I mean, I almost feel like
22:01
that's another area of maybe flexibility and overlap because
22:04
you don't always get a lot of say in when court hearing dates
22:07
and trial dates are going to be either you're kind of at the
22:09
mercy of the entire court system.
22:13
I mean, the nice part is they do personal injury, you don't have
22:17
a ton of motion practice, so you're doing because they're car
22:20
wrecks. There's things like that.
22:22
So you're doing like maybe, you know, summary judgement, maybe
22:26
one other motion and then you wait for trial.
22:29
And so you can, you do have some control over your, your trial
22:32
practice. But right now, I mean, in Ada
22:34
County, I'm we're looking at a year, year and a half out.
22:37
Oh Dang. So it's like you can, you know,
22:41
schedule that, but it's that far in advance and then you kind of
22:44
know that too with the with the acting career.
22:46
It's like, OK, I know that I have trial on this particular
22:49
date, so I can try and avoid that as much as as best you can,
22:54
but. Yeah, Yeah.
22:56
I just imagine like one of those sitcoms where you're just like
22:58
running in and you have like your lawyer suit on and then
23:02
you're asking everybody to start filming like outside the
23:05
courtroom. Like can we move locations and
23:07
then go like do like a couple scenes and then run in back to
23:09
the trial and then. We have seen your office.
23:12
We've used your office as a set before.
23:14
Yeah, several times. Like my actual office right now
23:17
I have, I have like lights on the sides and I have like
23:20
microphone and like tripods and I have AI have a desk that you
23:25
can raise and lower now. And so it's it's funny.
23:28
It's so I'm doing like lawyer work and I'm like, oh crap, I
23:31
have to do this audition. I like push everything back,
23:34
flip it around, get my lights set up, do an audition, get
23:36
back. I'm like, oh, I have a hearing
23:37
now. I have to like.
23:38
I need. To it is kind of weird.
23:40
Right on. That's well, you did give.
23:42
Brilliant. Though you did give me some
23:44
ideas if I'm ever having a hard time figuring out the balance
23:46
between the creative and the actual.
23:48
Just like grunt work, I I know now how to escape with Matthews
23:53
through Double Jeopardy. So I could just.
23:55
Take a month off from sleeping. Just month off, no sleep.
23:59
Get everything done. There has been lots of no sleep
24:03
nights, but I mean really that's only probably, you know, one or
24:06
two a month at this time. So well, that's good, I.
24:09
Mean, that's good, but also, you know, you can sleep too.
24:12
You're allowed to do that. Yeah, it's OK, you know.
24:15
Eating, sleeping, the little things you know, I have another
24:19
question for you. Because you've obviously
24:21
informed us on how being being a lawyer has helped you with
24:25
contracts and your pursuit of acting, but how has your pursuit
24:30
of acting helped your legal pursuits?
24:33
Do you have examples of that? I do actually.
24:36
There's, I mean, it gets me the, the cool thing is I have this
24:42
really awesome acting class that I'm in and part of my acting
24:45
class is it's really connecting with your emotions and, and as a
24:50
lawyer, you'd be like, why do you want to do that?
24:54
But the reality is that 1 is a stereotype.
24:56
Right, it totally is. That's.
24:58
Fair. My husband was down in Las Vegas
25:00
training all week. And guess what they did?
25:03
They spent most of the time visualizing, learning how to
25:07
connect with their case, learning how to connect with the
25:10
emotions of their witnesses. Because I mean, the truth of the
25:13
matter is all, all being a lawyer is, is about
25:17
storytelling, especially a litigator, OK?
25:20
And we, we. Get in there and we tell our
25:23
clients stories, you know, and, and you can't do that from a
25:27
place of, you know, robot. You just can't.
25:31
I mean, you could, but it would. Maybe not connect with a jury
25:34
nearly as well, right? Yeah.
25:36
And so. Being able to and it's not even
25:38
acting skills as much as it is, you know, it is my training.
25:42
But but being able to get to a point where you're like, this is
25:47
my client, but this is also like a real human who has had to, you
25:52
know, endure all of this. Yeah.
25:55
And and they're, they're not talking right, because I'm their
25:58
advocate. And so being in a courtroom and
26:02
really being able to talk to a jury and tell them, hey, this is
26:04
what my client went through. Yeah.
26:05
You know, from beginning to end. And this is what we this is, you
26:09
know, the trauma they went through.
26:10
This is, you know, what they experienced to really be able to
26:14
convey that. I think, you know, that is
26:16
probably my best explanation on how that that is.
26:20
It just helps me connect with not only my client, but then
26:23
with the jury too, and kind of be that conduit.
26:25
That's important. I think that's awesome.
26:28
Yeah. Nice.
26:28
That's really cool, and it's kind of nice to hear somebody.
26:30
Can you tell? Yeah, well, that's that's a.
26:32
Good thing listening to you. Speak and I'm.
26:34
Like now I feel built guilty about all those like lawyer
26:37
jokes when I was growing up and high school.
26:40
And college. Well, no, because.
26:42
That's what's the one like California has all the nuclear
26:46
reactors, but New York has all the lawyers.
26:50
Why? You know, another one.
26:52
Oh, because California. Got to pick first I mean, but.
26:58
But no. I mean, I don't know.
27:00
Also, I think there are plenty of lawyers in California there,
27:02
there, there's plenty of lawyers everywhere.
27:04
But it's really nice that one, you've seen that as a really
27:10
empowering and creative way to take more ownership and more
27:14
pride in your day-to-day work. But then it's also kind of cool
27:18
to hear that there are now national trainings where they're
27:22
also encouraging something similar, where maybe we've given
27:26
lawyers a bad rap over the years.
27:28
And maybe we do need to just kind of let everyone acknowledge
27:32
that, hey, they're people too. You know, yes, they're doing a
27:36
great job and they're representing their clients with
27:38
zeal and this is amazing. But also, they are humans.
27:41
Let's not be mean. Well, yeah.
27:44
And I. Mean it took me forever to
27:47
embrace the personal entry realm of lawyering, honestly, because
27:52
I was like, you know, I want to, I want to help people.
27:54
I'm not, you know, no offense to all your personal injury
27:58
attorneys, but like, it's not about money for me.
28:00
I mean, it's just not, it's about, it's about helping people
28:03
and really going through the stuff with them and being
28:08
alongside of them. And so I did, you know, I did
28:10
criminal law. I did, you know, whether it was
28:13
a prosecution where I was helping the victim or whether it
28:15
was defense where I was, you know, helping the people who
28:18
were charged, either they they didn't do it or you know, just
28:23
helping them like maneuver the system and situational problems.
28:27
Or lack of knowledge about the law itself.
28:29
And yes, and. Then personal injury, I'm like,
28:32
yeah, that's all about money. But it turns out I finally got
28:37
convinced when it was like, you know what?
28:40
These people are hurt. Yeah.
28:42
And. The.
28:43
Insurance companies are like, oh, that's cute.
28:46
Here's here's $400.00 Go and get yourself, you know, a nice, a
28:50
nice soda or whatever, you know, that's right.
28:54
And so a lake grace you can wear for.
28:56
The rest of your life, yeah, yeah, I mean.
28:58
Covered right and. Future companies.
29:01
Are bad. It meant so much to.
29:03
Me and then I'm like, OK, I can embrace this.
29:05
I can do this. Yeah, but don't don't ask me
29:08
just to like go after the money. I just this gross to me.
29:11
I just don't do it. Well, obviously you're in.
29:13
Indie filmmaking. So you're not after the money?
29:15
No, no. You know, it's like, I don't
29:17
know if there's anything about any of your career choices this
29:19
year and this for the money. I don't know what I'm thinking.
29:22
I really don't. That's great.
29:24
And I like the fact that the acting isn't forming your
29:27
profession. And I do feel like if any of you
29:29
out there are on the film making and working in the crew behind
29:31
the camera, it is it is good practice to learn how to
29:35
present, learn some of those acting skills.
29:37
Because I would imagine it helps leadership roles a great deal
29:42
and also helps you direct the people that you're trying to
29:44
direct that are on the opposite end of the camera when you're
29:46
trying to shoot your films to understand some of that stuff.
29:49
Empathy, who knew? It's so valuable.
29:51
I don't think there's enough of it in this.
29:53
World, I think we need a little more.
29:55
I'm glad to hear people are coming around on that front.
29:57
Even lawyers, even lawyers. I love it.
30:00
Really. Just, you know.
30:00
Dead inside most of the time. No, they're not, according to
30:05
the jokes. They are the funniest one
30:06
according to the horrible jokes the.
30:07
Funniest one? Yes, funniest.
30:08
One All right, well. On that note, do we have
30:10
anything else to add or I? Don't think so, because we
30:15
talked about the newsletter at the beginning this time, yes,
30:17
make sure you sign up indie. Filmpodcast.com But Ellen.
30:21
Anything that you want to add? Oh my goodness.
30:24
I don't think so, but I you know, we did talk about a little
30:28
bit earlier about Netflix, the Mirror, Black Mirror, actually,
30:34
this is. A really good example and does
30:36
kind of tie nicely back to some of the AI threats, yes, so.
30:39
Would you mind? Telling us a little bit about
30:41
your favorite It is. Jonas Jonas awful is my favorite
30:45
episode. I've watched it so many times
30:48
and I love Annie Murphy. I mean she does one of my
30:51
favorites, but just being able to like see that.
30:55
It's just such a perfect example of how, you know, the acting
30:59
field and, and making movies and making money in that respects
31:03
comes together with the legal aspects of it.
31:06
Yeah, you know, and it's, it's pretty fascinating.
31:09
And I mean really it's it's kind of mind blowing in a lot of ways
31:14
and I just really enjoy it. So if you like Black Mirror.
31:16
That's one that kind of covers what might we might be looking
31:19
at in the future if people aren't very careful about the
31:22
image releases that they're signing.
31:24
Absolutely, if you sign. An image release for throughout
31:27
the usage. With what throughout the
31:29
universe in perpetuity about the.
31:32
Universe there it is very. Like.
31:34
It sounds. Wonderful, beautiful age.
31:37
We're looking at colonizing. Mars now, so it's going to be
31:40
applicable that was always. The front of my mind when I'm
31:43
looking at those releases, I'm like, it could be Mars.
31:45
It didn't. I didn't consider AII just was
31:48
like the universe, you know, fine.
31:50
Yeah, it'll be fine. OK, so the recommended watching
31:53
for everyone is Joan is awful episode of Black Mirror, because
31:58
if you aren't afraid of signing some of those contracts as an
32:02
actor, don't worry, you will be after you watch that episode
32:05
definitely for sure. Excellent.
32:07
Well, on that note. Shall we end with the succinct
32:09
goodbye? Sounds wonderful.
32:11
Excellent. Bye.
32:12
Bye.