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SMNTY Classics: An Overview of Women Coaches and Referees · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie. I'm welcome to stuff I never
0:07
Speaker 1: told you production of iHeartRadio. And today, after our wonderful
0:21
Speaker 1: interview with doctor Baith about trans athletes, it was just
0:26
Speaker 1: a wonderful thing. Please go listen to that episode if
0:29
Speaker 1: you haven't already. I thought we would bring back an
0:32
Speaker 1: episode we did about women coaches and referees because when
0:38
Speaker 1: we did that episode, we talked about the importance of
0:42
Speaker 1: supportive coaches, not necessarily referees, but I would say yes also,
0:49
Speaker 1: and so just to add to that to that conversation.
0:54
Speaker 1: Also just a note, we had a really funny discussion
0:57
Speaker 1: off mic about heated rivalry that might happen she comes back.
1:03
Speaker 2: I was suggesting it and was excited.
1:05
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, I'm into it. I'm so into it.
1:10
Speaker 1: But yeah, please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is
1:18
Speaker 1: Sanny and Samantha all of some stuff I've never told
1:20
Speaker 1: you protection of iHeart Radio, and welcome to a long
1:33
Speaker 1: awaited episode that we're doing on women referees and coaches.
1:40
Speaker 1: Brief content warning for sexist language. Samantha, when you look
1:45
Speaker 1: back in your experience, did you see or or have
1:50
Speaker 1: more male coaches or female coaches?
1:52
Speaker 2: Well, so the only sports I really participated in was cheerleading,
1:58
Speaker 2: so for that, I you know, I only had women
2:02
Speaker 2: coaches for those. But I will say when I was
2:05
Speaker 2: watching my friends who competed in tennis and in cross country,
2:10
Speaker 2: it was all men. Now that I'm thinking about it,
2:12
Speaker 2: the more and more that the few and even for
2:15
Speaker 2: like women's basketball, girls basketball, we had a whole issue
2:20
Speaker 2: with inappropriate behavior from our coach, who was beloved. But
2:25
Speaker 2: then like, yeah, it's easily like those beloved coaches are
2:28
Speaker 2: the ones like, yeah, okay, that makes sense, he's a
2:30
Speaker 2: little too close to the students. But anyway, it was
2:33
Speaker 2: a dude obviously as I say this, But yeah, I
2:36
Speaker 2: think now that I'm thinking about it, even for the
2:38
Speaker 2: girls teams or like mixed teams, it was all typically men,
2:43
Speaker 2: and the ones that were highly regarded were always men.
2:47
Speaker 2: Like even outside of like again a couple of cheerleading squads, Yeah,
2:53
Speaker 2: what about you.
2:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think looking back, I did a couple of
2:59
Speaker 1: sports that were more leaning towards girls, so like gymnastics
3:06
Speaker 1: that was all women. But when I got into high school,
3:12
Speaker 1: I was really insecure. Therefore I didn't compete in sports.
3:15
Speaker 1: But so most of the coaches I saw when other
3:18
Speaker 1: people were competing were men. There were a couple of outliers,
3:22
Speaker 1: and they were women who were very beloved. But also, yeah,
3:27
Speaker 1: we had a lot of with those men coaches. There
3:31
Speaker 1: were just rumors of them being kind of creepers, so
3:36
Speaker 1: and it was just accepted. It was just like, yeah, yep,
3:40
Speaker 1: that's how they are. But my school was also pretty small,
3:45
Speaker 1: so was yours. Right, You're just very small.
3:48
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I was thinking about how many I think,
3:50
Speaker 2: like we had one hundred. I think ours is bigger
3:54
Speaker 2: than yours, So like one hundred and thirty people graduate
3:57
Speaker 2: in my class. There was only one high school, I
4:01
Speaker 2: believe in the entire county.
4:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've I've seem to recall I had a ninety
4:08
Speaker 1: one number of graduating people in my class, but I
4:13
Speaker 1: don't know, I could be wrong. That's the number that
4:16
Speaker 1: I've liked, it's been a while. That's the number that
4:19
Speaker 1: stands out to me. But yeah, I just feel mostly
4:25
Speaker 1: women coaches in my experience were like outliers and there
4:29
Speaker 1: weren't really referees in my experience. This episode Listeners was
4:34
Speaker 1: what I'll call a folly on my part because I
4:38
Speaker 1: was like, surely this will be a simple one to
4:41
Speaker 1: put together. It's it wasn't And in fact, I'm just
4:48
Speaker 1: going to go ahead and put a disclaimer up here.
4:51
Speaker 1: You could break down the history of coaches and referees
4:55
Speaker 1: in pretty much every sport and it could be a
4:57
Speaker 1: full episode. There has been a lot of search into it,
5:01
Speaker 1: so today we are going to be talking about some
5:05
Speaker 1: of the history, specifically in the realm of football slash
5:08
Speaker 1: soccer and American football issues and potential solutions. This is
5:14
Speaker 1: by no means comprehensive. I'm actually really impressed at how
5:19
Speaker 1: many detailed sources that I found looking to this, but
5:25
Speaker 1: a lot of it is recent, a lot of it
5:26
Speaker 1: is very very soon, of course, yes, and we're going
5:30
Speaker 1: to talk about that soon because a lot of the
5:32
Speaker 1: first I was like, oh really last year yep, yeah, yep.
5:39
Speaker 1: It sucks, It does suck, and it does have it's important.
5:44
Speaker 1: It is important. So to start, I tried to find
5:49
Speaker 1: like a general definition of a coach and referee. People
5:53
Speaker 1: don't really seem to agree on even that, So basically
5:57
Speaker 1: I would say coach is someone who guy and supports athletes,
6:04
Speaker 1: usually on a team. There are no consistent guidelines or
6:08
Speaker 1: requirements though it often involves getting a coaching and teaching
6:12
Speaker 1: license and perhaps other credentials that can look very differently
6:17
Speaker 1: depending on the sport, depending on where you are. Referees,
6:22
Speaker 1: this was even less less regulated from what I could find.
6:27
Speaker 1: Please if anyone is a coach a referee professionally or not,
6:31
Speaker 1: write in. But yes, they're basically monitoring the game, watching
6:39
Speaker 1: for any like breaking of rules or something like that.
6:46
Speaker 1: And to become one it seemed like it was sort
6:48
Speaker 1: of all over the place based on sport. But basically
6:50
Speaker 1: you have to pass a rules exam and then you
6:53
Speaker 1: sort of work your way up from the bottom. That's
6:56
Speaker 1: what it sounded like. Then I discovered I knew about this,
7:00
Speaker 1: but I don't know why I've never thought about it.
7:02
Speaker 1: The people who watched the like videos. Yeah, yeah, so
7:07
Speaker 1: that's a whole separate thing we're gonna have to come
7:09
Speaker 1: back to because women are just breaking grounds and that
7:12
Speaker 1: as well.
7:14
Speaker 2: Right, we're not even talking about commentators and how much
7:17
Speaker 2: they miss they make, Like Tom Brady just got millions
7:21
Speaker 2: of dollars of a contract to work with Fox Sports.
7:24
Speaker 2: So yeah, the last talk about it's a whole different world.
7:30
Speaker 2: But of course, all of this means all of this
7:32
Speaker 2: is conversations about how much money and can be made
7:36
Speaker 2: in this industry and who was given to But you know, again,
7:40
Speaker 2: we'll come back to that later. But or will you
7:42
Speaker 2: do all of that? Let's talk about a little bit,
7:44
Speaker 2: a little bit of stance, stance, a little bit of stance.
7:47
Speaker 1: Handy or a couple you know, quick ones.
7:50
Speaker 2: So when it comes to the US, as the twenty
7:51
Speaker 2: twenty two about thirty percent of high school varsity coaches
7:55
Speaker 2: were women compared to a seventy percent of men, which
7:58
Speaker 2: is more than I thought it would be, to be
8:00
Speaker 2: very honest, especially in high schools, because they're pretty competitive.
8:05
Speaker 1: High school is a day are interesting.
8:08
Speaker 2: Level making come on Friday night lights. They made hit
8:11
Speaker 2: shows based on coaching and teams in high schools. But whatever,
8:16
Speaker 2: And according to the conversation quote, today men occupy nearly
8:20
Speaker 2: seventy five percent of all head coaching positions in collegiate athletics,
8:25
Speaker 2: again lower than I thought. I would have thought it
8:29
Speaker 2: was ninety percent. But you know, the BBC recently reported
8:32
Speaker 2: that the number of women's referees in English football had
8:35
Speaker 2: increased by seventy two percent as of twenty sixteen, and
8:39
Speaker 2: that was in twenty twenty.
8:42
Speaker 1: Huh really yeah, yeah, we're going to talk about that
8:45
Speaker 1: in a second. But I do want to clarify the
8:49
Speaker 1: English football is important because it was specifically about in England.
8:54
Speaker 2: England, yes, which is I haven't watched a lot of
8:59
Speaker 2: English football soccer, I'm assuming recently and I've never but
9:03
Speaker 2: I've yet to see a woman being a referee, so
9:07
Speaker 2: that's interesting.
9:08
Speaker 1: Oh it's pretty recent. So okay, well's talk about Okay,
9:13
Speaker 1: let's go, Yes, But I did want to put in
9:16
Speaker 1: here before we get into it, a quick note about
9:19
Speaker 1: why it matters, because I think one thing that can't
9:22
Speaker 1: be quite captured in a definition is the power and
9:25
Speaker 1: impact of a good coach or a good referee, both
9:28
Speaker 1: in terms of fostering athletes and but in seeing that
9:32
Speaker 1: like oh I belong, Having women in these positions normalizes
9:37
Speaker 1: women's participation. It says like women are supposed to be here.
9:41
Speaker 1: It also allows for athletes to grow once they stop competing,
9:46
Speaker 1: and there's so much talent that is getting lost because
9:49
Speaker 1: these pathways don't really exist right now for women, or
9:52
Speaker 1: if they do, they're so crowded that women are getting
9:56
Speaker 1: pushed out. So it is important for bullied out, yeah,
10:00
Speaker 1: or bullied out. So yes, as we go into we're
10:06
Speaker 1: mostly going to talk about soccer football and American football.
10:13
Speaker 1: But yes, please forgive us because the history section is
10:18
Speaker 1: a bit cobbled together because sports history looks different all
10:22
Speaker 1: around the world, and it looks different in different sports.
10:25
Speaker 1: Also worth noting, in multiple cases, at some point or another,
10:29
Speaker 1: women were prohibited from competing officially in sports, which is
10:34
Speaker 1: pretty much how people become professional coaches and referees. So
10:39
Speaker 1: there's a lot of catching up to do in that sense. Yes, okay,
10:44
Speaker 1: but let us look at soccer slash football. While soccer
10:49
Speaker 1: football has a long history of being popular, patriarchal systems
10:52
Speaker 1: have often sought to keep women out, both as players
10:55
Speaker 1: and in any leadership or officiate positions. For instance, women
11:00
Speaker 1: were bands from playing on official Football League pitches in
11:05
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty one. Their official reason was that it was
11:09
Speaker 1: dangerous for women. We've talked about this before. She can't
11:13
Speaker 1: sweat what about our uter is going to fall out,
11:16
Speaker 1: It's going to fall out. These are real things. The
11:21
Speaker 1: unofficial reason was that they didn't want women to threaten
11:24
Speaker 1: a quote men's sports.
11:27
Speaker 2: However, women's soccer has really taken off in recent years
11:31
Speaker 2: with a huge explosion of popularity, Attendance records have been broken,
11:35
Speaker 2: as have viewership records, and the skills on display are
11:38
Speaker 2: just as astounding. Still, when it comes to women coaching
11:42
Speaker 2: this sport, we're still lagging behind. Only one third of
11:46
Speaker 2: Women's Super League coaches have a woman manager. National Women's
11:50
Speaker 2: Soccer League or NWSL has fourteen clubs and only five
11:55
Speaker 2: are led by women.
11:58
Speaker 1: Austria's Edith Klinger is believed to be the first woman
12:02
Speaker 1: to referee both men and women's games. In nineteen thirty five. However,
12:07
Speaker 1: FIFA officially recognized Turkey's Tressan Arda as the world's first
12:13
Speaker 1: football woman referee. She refereed her first match in nineteen
12:17
Speaker 1: sixty eight after years of training. Although FIFA is very
12:22
Speaker 1: like it has to be a FIFA event, so that
12:24
Speaker 1: makes sense to me, right. Betty Ellis was the first
12:28
Speaker 1: woman to officiate a professional US soccer game in nineteen
12:32
Speaker 1: eighty one, and then in nineteen ninety one we saw
12:36
Speaker 1: the first all women team to officiate a FIFA tournament. Earlier,
12:42
Speaker 1: Claudia Vasconcelos became the first woman to referee an official
12:45
Speaker 1: FIFA event at the first Women's World Cup. So the
12:50
Speaker 1: reason this kind of came out later because FIFA again
12:55
Speaker 1: wasn't sure if it was an official event, like they
12:57
Speaker 1: were like Women's World Cup. But then when they later
13:02
Speaker 1: were like, okay, it was an official event, then it
13:04
Speaker 1: was like she kind of retroactively got the recognition. Just
13:08
Speaker 1: a handful of years later we got the first woman
13:11
Speaker 1: to be designated as the first official FIFA accredited referee.
13:16
Speaker 2: So one woman who recently has been the source of
13:19
Speaker 2: a lot of coverage as Emma Hayes, who, after coaching
13:22
Speaker 2: the team and Chelsea, went on to coach the US
13:24
Speaker 2: women's national team and led them to gold. She has
13:27
Speaker 2: been very vocal about the lack of women coaches and
13:30
Speaker 2: all the reasons she thinks that is things like cost
13:33
Speaker 2: and the gender wage gap, lack of education and attention,
13:36
Speaker 2: and lack of mentors, which kind of we talked about
13:39
Speaker 2: with the Olympics.
13:40
Speaker 1: Yes, in twenty twenty, in part because of COVID, the
13:47
Speaker 1: comic ball Ceonmebol Copo Libertatorrees, the highest level of competition
13:54
Speaker 1: in South American club football, was the first game to
13:57
Speaker 1: feature only women referees. The video match officials were also women,
14:03
Speaker 1: meaning the entirety of the officiating team was composed of women,
14:07
Speaker 1: and I will say it's kind of unfortunate, but a
14:12
Speaker 1: lot of this did happen during COVID because men were
14:14
Speaker 1: getting COVID, so it was sort of like whoever could
14:20
Speaker 1: step up, and these women were definitely qualified. Do not
14:23
Speaker 1: get me wrong, but that's it was like all the
14:26
Speaker 1: men were sick. In twenty twenty two, Stephanie Frappar became
14:33
Speaker 1: the first woman to officiate a men's World Cup game.
14:36
Speaker 1: She also had like a bunch of other first She
14:39
Speaker 1: had two women assistants too at this time, nus At
14:42
Speaker 1: Back of Brazil and Karen Diaz Medina of Mexico. And yeah,
14:48
Speaker 1: there are still first happening. In twenty twenty three, the
14:51
Speaker 1: first woman was appointed to coach a professional British football team.
14:55
Speaker 1: I saw something today because of course, when you're researching
14:58
Speaker 1: something like this, you start getting news update all the
15:00
Speaker 1: time right about other first that are happening. So it's
15:04
Speaker 1: one of those things where I'm kind of like, I'm happy,
15:07
Speaker 1: but I'm shocked that I'm like, oh, really this is yeah.
15:11
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty four, finally I guess, yeah, yeah, and
15:18
Speaker 1: that is the briefest of overview of women coaches and
15:23
Speaker 1: referees in soccer. Let us look at American football, so
15:38
Speaker 1: this was interesting to me. American football, the rules and
15:42
Speaker 1: sport were formalized in the eighteen seventies, and one of
15:45
Speaker 1: the main stated goals of this sport was to reinforce
15:49
Speaker 1: and shore up what was believed to be fading manliness
15:54
Speaker 1: in white and glosed Saxon men due to increased immigration
15:58
Speaker 1: and the closed frontier. But even in these early days,
16:02
Speaker 1: women were present as coaches. The so called father of football,
16:06
Speaker 1: Walter Camp, often missed practices and his wife, Alice would
16:10
Speaker 1: take his place. She took these like really intense notes.
16:14
Speaker 1: She made play suggestions. The team, who were undefeated in
16:19
Speaker 1: eighteen eighty eight, considered her a coach on the same
16:22
Speaker 1: level as her husband. At reunion celebration twenty five years later,
16:26
Speaker 1: both she and her husband were labeled head coaches. So
16:31
Speaker 1: women weren't there. Whether they were getting the credit necessarily
16:35
Speaker 1: different story, but they were there, and she was not
16:38
Speaker 1: the only one. Prior to World War One, a roster
16:40
Speaker 1: of American women coach men's football teams from the Washington Post,
16:45
Speaker 1: names like Lillian Merrill, Annie Bragdon, Estelle Sherwin, Carrie Brookhart,
16:50
Speaker 1: and Cosette Brannon were all there. Two of them, Bragdon
16:55
Speaker 1: and Burkhart boasted undefeated seasons at the time. One of
17:01
Speaker 1: the main aspects of this sport was its violence. It
17:05
Speaker 1: was something that journals wrote about, including injuries and even death.
17:11
Speaker 1: So these women coaching such a violent sport broke accepted
17:14
Speaker 1: Western gender stereotypes in multiple ways. Generally, they coached school
17:21
Speaker 1: age teams. Women did pretty much anything above that. In
17:25
Speaker 1: the rare case it happened was usually because of lack
17:27
Speaker 1: of funding to pay for a mail coach or something
17:31
Speaker 1: something like that, a second choice like women, that's the
17:36
Speaker 1: second choice. Women were still viewed as largely spectators to
17:41
Speaker 1: the men, being madly and somewhat of a calming influence
17:45
Speaker 1: in the audience. Yeah, this actually was the thing in
17:51
Speaker 1: a lot of Western countries, regardless of sports, as were sexist, racist,
17:56
Speaker 1: ablest and homophobic guidelines designed to keep margin people out
18:01
Speaker 1: are harassing them if they somehow managed to participate.
18:05
Speaker 2: Right, So that shifted a bit during World War One
18:08
Speaker 2: when men went away to fight the war and women
18:11
Speaker 2: stepped up into their positions as coaches. A story as
18:15
Speaker 2: old as time in high schools and college positions. The
18:18
Speaker 2: same thing happened during World War Two, and some of
18:21
Speaker 2: these coaches won titles. Once the men returned from the war,
18:24
Speaker 2: many of the women were forced out, though some remained
18:28
Speaker 2: coaching for many more years.
18:31
Speaker 1: Go back to the leg of their own.
18:32
Speaker 2: That's that whole scenario.
18:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh huh. Some reporters from the
18:38
Speaker 1: time describe these women coaches as radical and strange. Their
18:43
Speaker 1: husbands were often pointedly mentioned as if to reassure folks
18:49
Speaker 1: that they are still straight women in the domestic sphere,
18:53
Speaker 1: or even crediting their husbands with the women's knowledge and talent. Yeah,
18:58
Speaker 1: when Pauline Foster's team beat a team coach by a man,
19:02
Speaker 1: it was reported on with almost amusement, like he'll never
19:05
Speaker 1: live down this embarrassment, as opposed to crediting her talent,
19:09
Speaker 1: which they often did attribute to her husband. And of course,
19:15
Speaker 1: the physical appearances of the women coaches was the point
19:18
Speaker 1: of attention to in a way that it wasn't for men.
19:21
Speaker 1: Descriptions like beautiful, attractive, and buxom blonde were pretty standard.
19:27
Speaker 2: That word buxhom that you gets me every time.
19:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, after a bit of a dead period for women
19:33
Speaker 1: American football coaches. Nineteen seventy two's Title nine put in
19:37
Speaker 1: place rules to foster quality in women's sports in education settings,
19:42
Speaker 1: but this mostly pertained to athletes and not coaches or referees.
19:47
Speaker 1: Women coaches were still met with suspicion and derision. Some
19:51
Speaker 1: universities and institutions even had in place rules that prohibited
19:55
Speaker 1: women from holding these positions, even assistant coaching position. Before
20:02
Speaker 1: Title nine, ninety percent of intercollegiate women's teams were coached
20:05
Speaker 1: by women, largely unpaid. However, after Title nine there was
20:10
Speaker 1: a huge growth in teams and men started to take
20:12
Speaker 1: these roles thanks to biases and also, yeah, the roles
20:16
Speaker 1: were now paid, so like now men were like, oh, yeah,
20:20
Speaker 1: I'll take that job. In twenty fourteen, women accounted for
20:25
Speaker 1: only forty three percent of these physicians. So basically, yeah,
20:29
Speaker 1: now women's teams were getting money, they were getting resources,
20:34
Speaker 1: and suddenly men sought as a legitimate career path to
20:39
Speaker 1: coach these teams. Of course, yep I did find some
20:43
Speaker 1: arguments that first and second wave feminism were part to
20:47
Speaker 1: blame for the unintended consequences of the lower number of
20:50
Speaker 1: women coaches and refs, and the argument goes that these
20:54
Speaker 1: movements wanted women's sports under women's spheres, all women's clubs,
20:58
Speaker 1: perhaps specific rules. It was interesting. I was like, I guess,
21:06
Speaker 1: I don't know. It was an interesting argument. Yes, a
21:10
Speaker 1: few women were able to break through, including Carol White,
21:14
Speaker 1: who worked with Kickers at my alma mater, Georgia Tech
21:17
Speaker 1: as a graduate assistant in nineteen eighty six. Some say
21:21
Speaker 1: this makes her the first woman to coach in an
21:24
Speaker 1: NCAA Division One football tournament. Oh, people do like to
21:28
Speaker 1: argue about all this stuff, though, was probably not a surprise.
21:32
Speaker 1: Another thing people argue about when Natalie Randolph started coaching
21:35
Speaker 1: a men's high school football team in twenty ten. She
21:39
Speaker 1: was widely celebrated as the first women coach of a
21:41
Speaker 1: men's high school team. But if you've been listening to
21:44
Speaker 1: the history section, others will say, no, way, that can't
21:49
Speaker 1: be true. I think it's more of a in our
21:53
Speaker 1: recent times kind of thing. Yeah. In twenty twenty, there
21:59
Speaker 1: were a lot of headlines about history being made around
22:01
Speaker 1: women reps and coaches in NFL football. That season, there
22:05
Speaker 1: were twelve women coaches working. It was the first Super
22:09
Speaker 1: Bowl to feature two women coaches, and Sarah Thomas became
22:13
Speaker 1: the first woman referee to officiate a Super Bowl game.
22:17
Speaker 1: She also previously had broken other first, including becoming the
22:20
Speaker 1: first full time woman referee for the NFL. And yeah,
22:25
Speaker 1: the case of American football is interesting because women don't
22:29
Speaker 1: play it professionally, so there's not a pipeline of player
22:34
Speaker 1: to coach, right, Yeah, yep. That's also could be broken
22:40
Speaker 1: down into a much bigger episode because there's still a
22:44
Speaker 1: lot of first happening there. But let us talk about
22:49
Speaker 1: some of the issues here that we found when researching
22:53
Speaker 1: this one. No surprise her asspment. One of the biggest
22:58
Speaker 1: barriers women have reported in these positions is sexism and
23:02
Speaker 1: harassment from players, spectators, and other officials. Here are some
23:06
Speaker 1: examples from Forbes quote. If women want equal rights, then
23:10
Speaker 1: they need to learn how to referee. And from an
23:13
Speaker 1: amateur football coach, she should not be here. I know
23:16
Speaker 1: that sounds sexist, but I am sexist and if you
23:19
Speaker 1: start bringing in women, you have big problems. A senior
23:23
Speaker 1: vice president of the Football Association once said, women's place
23:27
Speaker 1: is in the kitchen and not on a football field.
23:30
Speaker 1: I love it.
23:31
Speaker 2: That's their go to is always the kitchen always.
23:33
Speaker 1: Yes, oh that is me. We're going to talk about
23:36
Speaker 1: this in a minute. But that comes up all the time.
23:42
Speaker 1: That go back to the kitchen argument, right every time.
23:45
Speaker 2: Here's another quote from a referee named Anne, things like
23:49
Speaker 2: don't you know the supermarket is open? You should be
23:52
Speaker 2: there doing the shopping, or why aren't you at home
23:54
Speaker 2: cooking your husband's mill? Or you should be pregnant at
23:57
Speaker 2: the kitchen sink. Or the worst one was I hope
24:00
Speaker 2: your children die of cancer. That was from a spectator.
24:04
Speaker 2: I remember one game, an FA cup round, and I
24:07
Speaker 2: walked off and my daughter came running over to where
24:09
Speaker 2: the tunnel area was and she said, Mommy, what's the dyke.
24:13
Speaker 2: She was only about ten or eleven at the time.
24:14
Speaker 2: And I said, why, honey, and she said, because the
24:16
Speaker 2: man over there, he's been calling you one the whole game.
24:20
Speaker 1: Oh yikes. Many women in these positions have reported they
24:25
Speaker 1: are quote aware of their token status and the damage
24:28
Speaker 1: that does to their mental health. There have been multiple
24:33
Speaker 1: instances of verbal and physical abuse and threats in these fields.
24:37
Speaker 1: The verbal sexist abuse is the most observed. Many did
24:42
Speaker 1: say the abuse only became sexist when people disagreed with
24:46
Speaker 1: a call right in the case of a referee right,
24:50
Speaker 1: and one study, every single woman referee interviewed reported having
24:54
Speaker 1: heard get back in the kitchen. So yes, that is
24:56
Speaker 1: their go to, that is their number one. Actually it's
25:01
Speaker 1: like really depressing, but it's kind of a funny story
25:03
Speaker 1: because in one of the people from the study confronted
25:08
Speaker 1: one of the men who said it, and he came
25:10
Speaker 1: down and he was so contrite and he's like, I
25:12
Speaker 1: don't know why I said it. I'm so sorry. She
25:15
Speaker 1: was like, don't ever do that again and get out
25:18
Speaker 1: of here.
25:18
Speaker 2: What the hell?
25:21
Speaker 1: Oh that's funny, Yeah, yeah, but it can get a
25:25
Speaker 1: lot darker. One person described basically threats of rape as
25:30
Speaker 1: an assistant referee, she was sixteen and she almost dropped
25:34
Speaker 1: out because of this experience. And the article was detailing
25:40
Speaker 1: the basically all of the fallout and damage of things
25:44
Speaker 1: like this and the loss of talent and women participating
25:49
Speaker 1: if this is what is normal as and accepted, because yeah,
25:52
Speaker 1: perhaps even more upsetting in a way. Some women did
25:56
Speaker 1: not recognize verbal sexist abuse, suggesting it's been so normal
26:03
Speaker 1: as they were just like, oh, I didn't think about it,
26:09
Speaker 1: which is sad. Others have reported not having places to
26:13
Speaker 1: change and when asking about it, management giving them like
26:19
Speaker 1: a storage cupboard or something, so that's not great. Also,
26:27
Speaker 1: just being dismissed or not respected. A lot of people
26:29
Speaker 1: reported that referees always assuming that the man is the
26:33
Speaker 1: head coach. One woman in one of these surveys said,
26:38
Speaker 1: when you make a mistake, it's because you're a woman.
26:43
Speaker 1: And yet there is sort of this other side of
26:47
Speaker 1: it of being labeled as not feminine enough, right, so, like,
26:51
Speaker 1: you made that mistake because you're a woman, but you're not,
26:55
Speaker 1: you're not feminine, Assumptions that they don't know the rules.
26:59
Speaker 1: There have been multi instances of male commentators, like we
27:03
Speaker 1: talked about our Olympics episodes, basically saying she's a woman,
27:06
Speaker 1: she doesn't know what she's doing, and these are like
27:08
Speaker 1: the commentators you're listening to during the game, right yeah.
27:14
Speaker 2: Uh.
27:14
Speaker 1: Stereotypes around physical and mental ability and inability to handle pressure,
27:19
Speaker 1: A lot of people reported.
27:21
Speaker 2: Right, so, here's a quote that sums it up pretty well.
27:23
Speaker 2: The studies findings demonstrate that men's gendered identities afford them
27:27
Speaker 2: automatic and unquestioned access to the social dynamics of the coach.
27:31
Speaker 2: Education system. Women, on the other hand, have to earn
27:34
Speaker 2: this through their performance of appropriate levels of football knowledge
27:37
Speaker 2: and skill, and these expectations often go far beyond the
27:40
Speaker 2: level of performance required by men to gain the same credibility.
27:44
Speaker 1: Yes, and just as always, there's discrimination around having children
27:59
Speaker 1: that could get pregnant. I read one that was basically
28:04
Speaker 1: a mail interviewer was like, Oh, you don't want this job.
28:08
Speaker 1: You'll have to work on the weekends, You'll have kids.
28:11
Speaker 1: You got to take care of the kids. Okay, And
28:14
Speaker 1: here's something This is kind of more complicated. I'll talk
28:16
Speaker 1: about why in a second, but examples show women coaches
28:20
Speaker 1: are more likely to get fired for similar behaviors. Male
28:24
Speaker 1: coaches exhibit and are lauded for they are. Women coaches
28:29
Speaker 1: are less likely to be renewed despite a track record
28:32
Speaker 1: for success. So, for instance, despite helping secure multiple national
28:38
Speaker 1: championships for the University of Minnesota, Duluth women's hockey head
28:41
Speaker 1: coach Shannon Miller's contract was not renewed in twenty fourteen.
28:45
Speaker 1: She didn't have any violations or anything, and she sued
28:48
Speaker 1: for gender discrimination, a suit she ended up winning and
28:51
Speaker 1: was awarded three million dollars.
28:53
Speaker 2: Gotta get that money, got.
28:54
Speaker 1: Get that money. In a lot of instances where women
28:57
Speaker 1: coaches are fired for abuse, they are never rehired, or
29:00
Speaker 1: if they are not at the same level. The same
29:02
Speaker 1: is not true for men. They don't usually get fired,
29:05
Speaker 1: and if they do, they get rehired at an equal
29:09
Speaker 1: or even better position. So I'm not advocating for this abuse,
29:13
Speaker 1: but the punishment should be equal. And that is not
29:17
Speaker 1: what we're seeing. Nope, it's not what we're seeing at all.
29:23
Speaker 1: There are a lot of toxic, old gender stereotypes here
29:26
Speaker 1: that basically boil down to traditionally masculine coded traits are better,
29:30
Speaker 1: but when a woman displays those traits, she is judged
29:33
Speaker 1: far more harshly. So a lot of the stuff we're
29:34
Speaker 1: talking about here is like a coach yelling at you,
29:37
Speaker 1: and it can be very abusive and has been, but
29:42
Speaker 1: it's seen as like when men do that, oh yeah,
29:47
Speaker 1: he's talking up his team. But when a woman doesn't say,
29:49
Speaker 1: oh look at this, true, she's got to be she's
29:52
Speaker 1: got to go again. I don't I'm not condoning abuse.
29:55
Speaker 1: I don't think it's right, but just saying here's a
29:59
Speaker 1: quote from the conversation. Another problem is that female college
30:03
Speaker 1: athletes seem to value coaches who act in dominant, sometimes
30:06
Speaker 1: authoritarian ways. When female athletes are asked what they want
30:09
Speaker 1: to coach, they'll say they want someone who's commanding, confident, assertive,
30:13
Speaker 1: and knowledgeable. At the same time, female athletes consider ideal
30:17
Speaker 1: female coaches to be caring, supportive, and nurturing, but this
30:20
Speaker 1: contradicts what they value in a coach. Female coaches ultimately
30:24
Speaker 1: find themselves in a double bind. They're damned if they
30:27
Speaker 1: act like men, and damned if they don't. Yep. Another issue,
30:33
Speaker 1: of course, equal pay. Many women coaches and referees are
30:37
Speaker 1: not getting paid what they're worth, not even close. There's
30:40
Speaker 1: also a persistent idea that there's more respect to be
30:44
Speaker 1: had coaching men's teams, which I found in some articles
30:49
Speaker 1: even when I was looking into this. There's a lack
30:53
Speaker 1: of standards and professionalization in these fields. There's unequal resources
31:00
Speaker 1: usually given towards women athletes and women coaches and women referees.
31:07
Speaker 1: All of that stuff. Nepotism and name recognition is a problem.
31:12
Speaker 1: Like gatekeeping is a problem here, the risk of retaliation
31:17
Speaker 1: if you report something. There's been several cases of that
31:20
Speaker 1: of women coaches or referees reporting wrongdoing and being retaliated against,
31:26
Speaker 1: and often they might be told, you know, just deal with.
31:30
Speaker 2: It, right so from sagebub quote. Among other inequities, women
31:35
Speaker 2: coaches have lower salaries, fewer opportunities, poorer working conditions and relationships,
31:40
Speaker 2: and more conflicts between coaching and family commitments than their
31:43
Speaker 2: male counterparts due to lack of organizational policies and cultural norms.
31:48
Speaker 2: The underrepresentation of women coaches is associated with power relations
31:52
Speaker 2: in sports, which is considered as a male dominated social
31:55
Speaker 2: context where men occupy dominant social roles over women monic masculinity. Still,
32:02
Speaker 2: coaching is heavily associated with male characteristics, and women are
32:06
Speaker 2: considered invaders when holding positions of power.
32:09
Speaker 1: Yes, right, And as always, there are intersexual issues here
32:15
Speaker 1: to coaches of color, black coaches, queer coaches all have
32:20
Speaker 1: faced unique issues of backclash and discrimination. Marginalized people have
32:25
Speaker 1: increased obstacles to entry. You have to deal with a
32:28
Speaker 1: whole host of issues that many of their counterparts don't.
32:32
Speaker 1: And there has been some recent stuff looking into this,
32:34
Speaker 1: but again a lot of this is pretty recent, and
32:37
Speaker 1: a lot of these first even in these specific intersexual areas,
32:42
Speaker 1: are very very recent. So a lot more to be done.
32:45
Speaker 1: And speaking of people are looking into this because all
32:49
Speaker 1: of this that we've been talking about as a negative
32:52
Speaker 1: impact on women's mental health, women in sport in general,
32:55
Speaker 1: I would say sport in general, just women's participation. So
33:01
Speaker 1: a couple of things that organizing bodies and people involved
33:06
Speaker 1: are looking into our new regulations, like creating minimum standards
33:10
Speaker 1: of women, marginalized folks in these positions, bringing more women
33:16
Speaker 1: to the table when making these regulations in the first place,
33:20
Speaker 1: because that has not happened really requiring marginalized people are
33:24
Speaker 1: interviewed for leadership positions. Some have reported organizations outright mocking
33:31
Speaker 1: or ignoring this though, so yep, organizations fostering mentoring and training.
33:39
Speaker 1: So we talked about this pretty recently, so it has
33:43
Speaker 1: been something that's been tried, but it's hard to track.
33:47
Speaker 1: It's hard to like quantify I guess the benefits of this,
33:51
Speaker 1: but many have said who have participated in it, that
33:55
Speaker 1: this helps women feel seen and heard and often allows
33:58
Speaker 1: for more open conversation, like maybe they able to talk
34:00
Speaker 1: to a mentor who is a woman as opposed to
34:04
Speaker 1: a man, because they don't feel like they can talk
34:07
Speaker 1: to men about something compiling more research, getting more research
34:12
Speaker 1: so that we can have more educated regulations that we
34:17
Speaker 1: can put in place. And as yeah, as we've said recently,
34:21
Speaker 1: as more women athletes enter the playing fields, more of
34:24
Speaker 1: them become coaches and referees and that continues. So that's good,
34:28
Speaker 1: like we are seeing growth, but there's still all of
34:34
Speaker 1: these issues to deal with and there's still so much
34:37
Speaker 1: further to go, right, yeah, way too much. Yeah, yes,
34:43
Speaker 1: But to everyone who's doing that work, thank you so much. Honestly,
34:48
Speaker 1: Like the power of a good coach and a good
34:52
Speaker 1: referee that can really stick with you, especially as a
34:54
Speaker 1: kid and you're like, oh yes, like can really make
34:59
Speaker 1: you want to keep going, or even if it's not
35:01
Speaker 1: in the same sport, it can just be something that's
35:03
Speaker 1: really inspiring. So yes, listeners, if you are involved in
35:08
Speaker 1: either coaching or refereeing, or sports in general, any of this,
35:12
Speaker 1: please let us know. You can write to us at
35:15
Speaker 1: Stephania Momstuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us
35:18
Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and
35:20
Speaker 1: TikTok at stuff Will Never Told You for USO on YouTube.
35:22
Speaker 1: We have a tea puppy store and we have a
35:23
Speaker 1: book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
35:26
Speaker 1: as always to our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya,
35:29
Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey.
35:30
Speaker 2: Thank you.
35:31
Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening stuff I never told you.
35:33
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