Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 121. Freedom In The Church - Abuse with Ryan George

Transcript

121. Freedom In The Church - Abuse with Ryan George · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:04
Welcome to the Four Freedom Podcast.
0:10
I found my freedom of you. I found a.
0:16
Joy, I can't lose. Thank God it's true.
0:21
You wrapped your arms around me and heaven broke through.
0:25
From the moment she found me, I found my freedom in you.
0:32
This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for
0:36
everyday Christians with everyday issues.
0:40
Now here are your hosts, James Seyffert and Brett Martin.
0:47
And welcome to the For Freedom podcast.
0:49
Thank you for being with us today.
0:51
We've got a great interview lined up for you in just a
0:53
minute. But James, how has life been
0:56
treating you? Brett, it's been so good.
1:00
We are having a great time in ministry.
1:03
We just, I did my first baptism here at this church.
1:07
Young lady camped to me and I wanted to join the church and
1:10
get baptized. And so that was an awesome
1:12
Sunday for us. And then we just had a senior
1:15
luncheon today. So I got to play with some
1:18
gambling bingo, ladies and gentlemen, and we had a a good
1:23
turn out down there. We've got our marriage
1:24
conference coming up this weekend for Valentine's Day.
1:28
We've got a friend of ours, Jason Riddle, that's going to be
1:30
coming and speaking to us. And so I'm getting his notes
1:33
together and slides ready. We've got, I think 10 or 11
1:38
couples signed up to be there. So 20 something people.
1:41
It's going to be a great time and just looking forward to
1:44
investing in marriages and our church and we've got, man, just
1:49
so much going on. We're wide open.
1:51
I've got a Deacon ordination this coming Sunday looking at
1:55
starting to begin some new things at the church with the
1:58
new year. And man, it's just been doing
2:00
really good. We're wide open, full steam
2:03
ahead and man, it's been great. How about you man?
2:07
How about, how's your aim going? Man, we've been blowing and
2:10
going and and busy with all the stuff that we've got.
2:13
We've just started a project here at our church.
2:15
We're going to expand our fellowship hall and of course
2:20
we're a good Southern Baptist church.
2:22
The. Committee last night and called
2:26
everybody. Everybody agreed and we're going
2:28
to, we're going to expand our fellowship hall, build a new
2:32
deck. It's a big project, but we've
2:35
got money in the bank. We're ready to to spend it and
2:38
put it in invested into the church.
2:40
We're growing. We need more space.
2:44
The worship band that we're starting has been practicing a
2:47
couple times a week and we're looking at April that getting
2:51
where we can have you know worship services every couple of
2:55
months and hopefully that'll lead into having worship you
2:59
know contemporary type music more often and man just a lot of
3:04
stuff going on with our connect groups have started back up and
3:07
people are excited about our small groups that we've got
3:10
going on. We got new ministry starting.
3:13
I've got a meeting with our children's committee tonight to
3:18
discuss possibly starting something a new ministry in our
3:24
with our kids on Sunday mornings and so just a lot of stuff going
3:28
on where in talks with missionaries to go out of the
3:32
country and so you know we've got a lot of things going on in
3:36
our church so this is one of the I mean we're only halfway
3:39
through the week and it's one of the busiest weeks that I've had
3:42
in a long time so but but we're ready to go but not only do we
3:47
have a lot going on in our churches man the horizon looks
3:52
busy for the podcast. Man, yeah, we're going to be
3:56
together in June. We booked a house together.
4:00
So me and my family and Brett and his family are going to be
4:04
in Indianapolis, IN go and see the the statue of Jack House and
4:10
pray to his feet. We're taking the Holy Land tour
4:14
to see the Mecca of First Baptist Hammond IN and so we are
4:20
excited about that to say the least.
4:22
No, but we are. Dress shirt.
4:24
Yes, White dress shirt, black tie, black suit.
4:27
We're we're good, man. That's gonna be great.
4:29
No, we're going there for the National Convention, for the
4:31
Southern Baptist Convention. And so we've decided to to split
4:35
the cost of a hotel and instead of doing a hotel, we're going to
4:37
do a house. And so me and my family, him and
4:39
his family are going to be there.
4:41
We're going to do a special in person live episode, not live.
4:45
So we're going to record it in person.
4:47
Typically we're always via the Zoom or teams or whatever it is.
4:52
And so that's going to be an exciting time.
4:53
We're going to do that and then Brett after that we've got to
4:58
what coming up after that. Let's see, we've got the meet up
5:02
in November coming up. For the sake of the gospel, it
5:06
is going to be at Hope Church Catoosa, that's Northern
5:11
Georgia, but it's right outside Chattanooga, TN.
5:15
And we're looking forward to being there, being with the RFP
5:20
crew and some of the other podcasts in our network will be
5:24
together so. Well, we say we say some of the
5:26
other networks, but last time it was just us because we're the
5:29
Supreme Alpha and Omega podcast, so.
5:33
That's right. That's right.
5:34
We we we were solo representing. So you know we we might have to
5:38
do that again and that's. OK.
5:39
It'd be all right. We're good.
5:41
Yeah. And then one year from now,
5:44
Brett, we're getting close to the exact one year we will be
5:48
back in the Holy Lands, man. It's been great to be able to
5:51
see those pictures from one year ago come back up on our
5:55
memories. Our website is live on the Isle
5:59
Tours and I've been forgetting, Brett, I got to remember do
6:02
this, it's been busy to put a link to that on our website to
6:05
the to the to the Israel trip. And so man, that's coming up.
6:12
I'm excited. We've got some good excitement
6:14
going on in our church about people wanting to go and this
6:17
the church I met has not been before and haven't really talked
6:20
about it. And so we're having an interest
6:23
meeting in just a couple of weeks and excited about seeing
6:27
the the people go and experience the Holy Lands like we did.
6:32
I'm excited, Brett, on my side to be able to view it from their
6:36
side, from from the side of the seeing what we're about to see
6:40
and the sort of the eye opening moments where they see scripture
6:43
like oh man, that's that's the mountain that Jesus was on.
6:46
That's the like, that's the part that I'm really excited about,
6:50
is just seeing the Bible come to life for them.
6:53
I just recently preached on Biblical authority and one of my
6:57
points was archaeology backs up the Bible.
7:01
And I was able to take some of the pictures that I had taken on
7:05
the trip and go through those pictures and lay out some of the
7:09
archaeological evidence that, you know, backs up the Bible and
7:14
that the archaeological, the, I'm sorry, the archaeological
7:19
evidence not only backs up the Old Testament, but it backs up
7:23
the New Testament too. But to be there and to see it
7:27
and experience it, there's nothing like it.
7:30
Me and you are going to be the lead pastors on this trip.
7:34
And it is an experience that I can't wait and my wife is coming
7:38
this time. I'm excited to get to share that
7:41
with her and we want to share it with listeners.
7:44
The for Freedom podcast. And so if you're a listener and
7:47
you are interested in coming to Israel with us, contact us.
7:52
Let us know, check out the website, read the itinerary, see
7:55
where we're going. I after we come back from a
7:59
break, I'm the push this guy to do it.
8:01
A little mini series on Israel. Let's do it, man.
8:04
Because I love talking about it, and it'd be really cool to do
8:08
that. But right now, before us, we're
8:12
in a series on the church. Yeah, and it's been good.
8:15
We've been talking about abuse and abuse in the church.
8:18
We had our interview with Jim Newhouser last week and this
8:22
interview, Brett wasn't actually part of one that we had planned.
8:26
I had received an e-mail from a Media Group of a book publishing
8:30
company and they had a guy that has looking to do some
8:34
interviews and looking to get his new book out.
8:38
And so I was leery at first. You can ask Brett.
8:40
I was. I don't know if I like this idea
8:42
or not. Someone I don't know.
8:44
I don't know who they are. You know I'm a little particular
8:48
when it comes to who we have on the podcast.
8:50
And so began looking into it. They sent me his book.
8:55
It's called Hurt and Healed by the Church.
8:59
And I was like, man, we're in the Church series.
9:02
This is pretty good. And then his subtitle is
9:05
Redemption and Reconstruction after Spiritual Abuse.
9:10
So then that really got my, my, my thoughts.
9:12
And so they sent me and Brett, the book would begin looking
9:14
through it. Brett's further along.
9:16
I think he's six or seven chapters in.
9:18
I'm just a couple of chapters in.
9:20
I'm right behind him. And I mean, it was probably the
9:23
first chapter I read. I called Brett.
9:26
I said, hey, we're having him on the podcast.
9:28
And then Brett, he's, he's gotten further along and he's
9:31
enjoying it. He quotes it a little bit.
9:34
So we we called in this guy named Ryan George.
9:36
His dad is a pastor and he's going to tell his story and man,
9:40
we are so excited about you hearing this and his book will
9:43
be on sale. You can pre-order it now and I
9:46
will mention that a little bit in the podcast.
9:48
But without further ado, let's introduce Ryan to the show.
9:52
Let's do it well. We were excited about having Mr.
9:56
Ryan George here with us. Ryan has a very interesting
10:00
story and he's going to be sharing his story here with us
10:02
today as we continue through our In the Church series and we talk
10:07
about abuse. Ryan is an author and he's
10:12
written a book called Scared to Sacred Scared to Life Sorry,
10:17
Word on the street and he's a Blogger of experience.org I'm
10:22
sorry, explorians.org. He's a Co founder and Co leads a
10:25
group called Dude Group, a spiritual adventure community of
10:29
Blue Ridge Mountain, where he lives with his wife Crystal and
10:32
his daughter Dionne. Is that right, Dion?
10:34
Dionne. Dionne.
10:36
All right. Yeah, he goes by D We just call
10:39
her D. Perfect.
10:40
And so we're excited about having him on here.
10:42
And he just recently wrote the book, written a book.
10:45
I don't know how you would say that.
10:46
I'm not a grammar guy. That's why I don't write books.
10:49
But it's called Hurt and Healed by the Church, Redemption and
10:53
Reconstruction after Spiritual abuse.
10:56
And so Ryan, he is, is a great guy.
10:59
This book has been great. Me and Brett have been reading
11:01
through it a little bit and we're excited about having him
11:04
on today. So, Ryan, won't you give us an
11:06
introduction of who you are? Would you come out of, and so
11:09
sure to tell us a little about who and your life in the
11:12
Independent Fundamental Baptist world?
11:14
Yeah, So the way most people know me is I'm an international
11:17
freelance advertising assistant, so I work for companies across
11:20
North America and the United Kingdom.
11:23
I'm also an adrenaline junkie. I've been to all 7 continents in
11:25
both polar circles. And so exploring it is my
11:29
blogging about all the places I found God around the world.
11:32
But I live in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia with my
11:34
wife of 23 years, Crystal. She's the director of missions
11:37
and women's ministry at the church where we've been for 17
11:39
years. We have a daughter in college.
11:41
You mentioned Diani. She's studying to be a social
11:43
worker. I am the son of a sexual
11:46
predator pastor in the IFB movement.
11:48
I'm the brother to five other homeschool graduates.
11:50
I'm uncle to 19 nieces and nephews.
11:54
Yeah, I Co found and Co LED do group that you mentioned there.
11:57
It's it's a group of men from multiple churches in our town
12:00
and we meet outdoors. We study the word of God around
12:02
a fire in the summertime, around picnic tables and just ask God
12:05
to read us. There's no table eaters.
12:08
There's no teaching. It's it's a very even
12:12
discipling. Disciples.
12:13
Disciples. Discipling each other.
12:15
But and then on Sundays I serve in the parking lots at my
12:18
church, where I've been serving for 17 years in Neon Vest.
12:22
But most people know me as Adventure Guy.
12:24
But I'm here because one of the biggest French of my life has
12:26
been reconstructing my faith after being abused by my father,
12:29
who has been shown to have abused a bunch of people.
12:33
Wow, that's what a great intro I want to say.
12:37
I want to say real quick that you picked the perfect name for
12:40
that discipleship group. Because when you said build a
12:43
fire and read the Bible, I was like, dude, that's awesome.
12:47
That's awesome. So it's like that's really cool.
12:50
Yeah, so you've been to both polar caps.
12:53
Got a question for you off topic here.
12:55
Are you a flat earther? Is the Earth flat or is it
12:58
round? You've been there.
12:59
You should have seen the curvature of the earth, or maybe
13:03
the. Curvature.
13:05
I've seen the curvature of the Earth.
13:06
I've seen. I've been places where the
13:08
glaciers are growing. I've been places where the
13:09
glaciers are shrinking. I've I've seen climate change up
13:13
close up in the polar areas. It's kind of scary how fast it's
13:16
happening. But yeah, last January I did
13:20
survival training up in the Arctic and had to learn how to
13:23
spend the night without stuff to start a fire or anything like
13:27
that, how to do shelter, all that stuff.
13:28
It is really cool. I was trained by a guy who
13:30
trains the Finnish army. He was.
13:33
He was just a really rad dude. Love it, love it.
13:36
So you heard it first here on the For Freedom podcast that the
13:38
earth is round. It's not flat.
13:40
And we have a a veteran of the world that knows that.
13:45
And so today, of course, we're talking about your
13:47
reconstruction journey, your faith journey.
13:50
A lot of people, when bad things happen in church, they abandoned
13:53
church altogether. They abandoned the the world of
13:56
faith. And your story is a little bit
13:59
different than that. And so I'm excited about jumping
14:01
through that because deconstruction is a word that is
14:06
a hot button topic right now. People are leaving their faith
14:09
in drones. Some major people in the world
14:13
of faith who were once leaders have left their faith.
14:17
And so you are connected to Bill Gothard and some of the the
14:23
things that were featured on the Shiny Happy People and you spent
14:27
the 1st 20 years of your life as a Independent Fundamental
14:30
Baptist. Your dad was a pastor or
14:32
currently is is a pastor. I don't know.
14:34
I know there's some stuff going on there.
14:37
But for anyone who isn't familiar with the IFB, what was
14:41
your connection to the Duggar family and the Shiny happy
14:44
people? What was the influence that they
14:45
had just to sort of give them a context of of where you're at
14:49
and what you were raised under? Yes, I didn't know the Duggars.
14:52
I mean, I've read their biographies and it's like
14:54
reading stuff out of my own life.
14:56
But we were both trained by Bill Gothard and his materials.
14:59
I still remember the day, my first day ever training under
15:03
Bill Gothard, because that was my first time ever having a
15:05
pizza sub from Subway. Like, it's funny the way your
15:08
brain puts things together, but it's a movement within the
15:12
within the IFB movement, right, which is a movement within the
15:14
Baptist denomination. And so as you keep drilling down
15:17
and my dad was another level below that in the Bible Baptist
15:21
Fellowship which I think is based out of Missouri.
15:23
But a lot of the experiences that the Duggar girls had
15:26
definitely the beliefs that they had that's right out of my life.
15:30
That's how my sisters had to be. That's how I had to be in the
15:34
same way with as the Duggars cover up is the first response
15:39
rather than confession right. Using theology as a weapon was
15:43
the same and some of the stuff that got there has proponent
15:45
like put in prints like not just like somebody heard him say, but
15:49
like in his material saying that sexual abuse victim should
15:53
accept their role as that as an abuse victim so that they can
15:56
show off God's forgiveness for his anointed who who abused
15:59
them. Concepts like that just
16:01
devastating. Obviously not the heart of
16:03
Jesus. And so I relate.
16:05
I don't I have met them. I I feel like I know them after
16:07
reading their biographies and stuff.
16:09
But I I relate a lot to what they grew up in, for sure.
16:15
Well, you know, your father was an IFB pastor and you write
16:18
about, you know, all the all that stuff you had to do, like
16:21
going to church 4 * a week, 8 * a week in college.
16:25
And man, I personally, I can definitely relate to that
16:28
because I remember growing up going to school and I was at the
16:32
church every single day. There was not one day, I was not
16:36
up there sometimes all day. And so I definitely can relate
16:42
to that. And you know, it's funny you
16:42
talk about Bill Gotthard because I never heard about Bill
16:46
Gotthard till I went to House Anderson.
16:50
But and then so I I never heard about him, but I heard his name,
16:55
but I still don't know anything about him.
16:57
And then I watched the documentary about shiny, happy
17:00
people, and I'll listen to what he taught.
17:04
And then my mind started to flashback to my pastor.
17:07
And I'm like, that's where my pastor got that stuff from all
17:11
about, you know, about the, you know, the baby and the circle
17:16
and breaking, the breaking the the will and not the spirit and
17:20
all that stuff. All it was like, man, my pastor
17:23
never said the name Bill Gothard.
17:26
I guess he just took credit for all of it.
17:28
But all the stuff that, that that he taught, so much of it
17:33
came from Bill Gothard. So I didn't know the influence
17:36
that he had had on myself growing up.
17:39
So I definitely can relate because some of the things you
17:42
went through. Another thing that I can relate
17:44
to you is you're right about how your father was verbally,
17:48
physically and spiritually abusive to you and where whereas
17:54
your father was your pastor. I experienced child abuse
17:58
growing up and and from from one of my stepfathers and on my my
18:05
pastor never physically abused me but looking back hindsight
18:09
2020 you can see the manipulation that that took
18:12
place and but man after everything that you went through
18:17
so many people they go through something like that and then
18:21
just like Jim Newhouser said there's a there's a pendulum
18:25
where you you swing away from that and you over correct over
18:29
correct and and you go too far to the other side.
18:33
I want to know how your childhood led to your faith
18:38
reconstruction because so many times it's so easy to get bitter
18:43
and stay bitter and and blame just like throw the baby out
18:48
with the bathwater and say I'm done with religion I'm quote UN
18:53
quote deconstructing I'm finished I'm walking away.
18:56
How did your childhood lead to your faith reconstruction?
19:02
Before I answer, I just want to say I understand why people
19:04
respond that way and I I give a lot of grace to that.
19:08
Absolutely. If, if I'd been tortured in our
19:10
prison camp in South Korea or North Korea, I don't think I'd
19:14
want to go back to North Korea. And so one of the things I think
19:17
I've been blessed is that I've had resources and relationships
19:20
come into my life at a preemptive time before I knew I
19:24
was going to need it. When different bombshells were
19:26
going to drop so that I didn't have to go as you did, describe
19:30
a pendulum all the way out. But how it prepared me.
19:33
My childhood kept showing me over and over again that one,
19:37
though the rules were arbitrary, and two, that they didn't work
19:41
right there. If the person who's teaching you
19:43
that this stuff will keep you innocent until marriage or this,
19:46
this will, you know, bless your business or whatever, and then
19:49
you find out that that person is completely the opposite.
19:52
It didn't stop him from molesting people in my church.
19:55
It didn't stop him from abusing me.
19:56
It didn't stop him from who knows what he's done to my mom,
19:58
I don't even know. And so it just showed me that
20:01
this, this is all a facade like it's and and what happened was
20:06
it's right about the time that I started leaving IFE, I I made
20:09
the choice too for my wife because she didn't grow up IFB
20:12
and we got married. I brought her to an IFB church
20:15
and so I said, hey, our next church I'll let you pick for a
20:17
little while. And as as we started to go I
20:19
started to meet people who were just so in love with Jesus.
20:22
And it wasn't fake. Like it wasn't something they
20:25
put on for Sunday and then took off and went back to wherever it
20:28
wasn't you know, a regiment of how many services or what music
20:31
they listen to or what they wore or whatever any of that what
20:34
Bible they read. They were just in love with
20:36
Jesus. And I kept meeting more and more
20:38
of these people who were asking questions I never heard growing
20:41
up and and showing me things in Scripture I never would have
20:44
seen. And Jesus became so personal.
20:47
I one of the reasons I've gone around the world is because
20:51
Jesus promised if you seek me you will find me if you seek
20:53
with your whole heart. And and Solomon wrote in
20:56
Proverbs that it's the glory of God to hide A matter, but it's
20:59
the glory of kings to discover it.
21:00
And so I my name Ryan, means king in a lot of languages.
21:04
So me as a little king, what I wanted to do is I wanted to go
21:07
find all these aspects of Christ's character that he's
21:10
revealed about himself all over the world.
21:12
And as I did that, he showed up very, very personal, and I
21:15
didn't need rules to approach him.
21:17
I didn't have to hire someone to go into the holy of Holies.
21:19
I didn't have to, you know, jump through any hoops.
21:21
He was just there. And so I think what my youth
21:25
showed me was how empty and frail that whole system is and
21:29
was for me in comparison to what I was now experiencing with
21:33
Jesus. That's great.
21:35
And you know, I, I can affirm with Brett as well.
21:39
And I wasn't abused. But there were some things that
21:42
after watching the documentary of shiny, happy People, I
21:45
realized, wow, my pastor or my college president or whatever it
21:49
was, they got that teaching from Bill Gothard.
21:52
And it just, it shows the power of influence.
21:55
It shows the power that men can have on people, which which
22:01
really begins to, as we think through that and we think
22:05
through your life and and some things in your book.
22:07
One of the things that you wrote about in your book was that your
22:10
dad, as your pastor, was not able to confess his sins to
22:14
anyone in his church or he would lose his spiritual authority.
22:20
You know, this is such a dangerous thing because when we
22:24
get this point, we have this, this we've elevated man to such
22:28
a high standard that he has no way to even talk to things, talk
22:32
through things in a small group setting or in a A1 on one
22:35
setting. So what is so dangerous about
22:38
having a pastor who claims he can't tell his sins to anyone
22:40
else you know? That's a great question.
22:45
The holy of Holies is broken down and we're we we've elevated
22:49
this person so high and he can't go to anybody.
22:51
So. So what What would be your
22:53
response to that? Before I answer, I just got to
22:55
say, you know in the holy of holies in the Old Testament,
22:57
they put a rope around the guy's ankle in case he wasn't ready so
23:00
that they could pull him out. And I wonder how many of these
23:03
IFB pastors need a rope around their ankle because we're going
23:06
to have to pull him out, right? They?
23:07
But the reason it seems so unhealthy to me was because
23:11
Jesus, little brother James said that confessing our sins is how
23:16
we're healed. So we can't be healthy unless
23:19
we're confessing. And modern psychologists,
23:22
whether they're biblical or secular or not, would agree with
23:23
that, right? The The more that we confess
23:25
whatever's in our heart, whether that's sin, whether that's
23:28
insecurities, whatever it is, the easier it becomes to tell
23:30
other people and more people, more people.
23:32
And we find health in that. And so if the pastor can't be
23:35
healthy, which is what that means, right?
23:37
If you're not confessing, you can't be healthy.
23:39
And if you're not healthy, then, then you are infecting a church
23:43
with unhealth. And so it's no wonder I had a
23:46
friend of mine back in the IFE movement.
23:50
She was abused. We have mutual pastor friends of
23:53
our of our dads. We're abusers.
23:55
One guy just committed suicide after he got caught.
23:58
And she's like, why it's so ironic this is happening.
24:01
I said it's not ironic. These guys aren't healthy.
24:04
They can't be until you. Until you confess your sins, or
24:07
even just confess your worries, or confess your insecurities, or
24:11
confess the things that you your doubts.
24:13
One thing you guys know this from just our short time
24:16
together is that the idea that IFP people have faith is
24:20
ridiculous, that you can't have faith unless you have fear or
24:23
doubt or both. And so if you don't, they're so
24:25
sure of everything they have. IFP people have a certainty
24:28
conference every year, which is just a declaration that we don't
24:31
have faith because we've got everything figured out.
24:34
And so if if they're not healthy, how can the people that
24:37
they lead be healthy? Yeah, that's so powerful.
24:41
And to know that, you know, right before we got on this
24:45
call, I had a a discipleship with me and a younger guy and we
24:50
literally just talked through what we're going in our life,
24:52
The things he's struggling with, the things I'm struggling with,
24:55
you know, I'm the pastor of the church and and we're walking
24:57
through together, we're doing life together, which is the
25:00
model of what Jesus did. And as pastors, we can't get
25:04
away from that. As Christians, we can't get away
25:06
from that. We've got to have people in our
25:08
life that are we're pouring into, they're poured into us.
25:11
They're, you know, I I ask our men, our leadership all the
25:15
time, what am I doing? What do I need to do better?
25:18
What if I said that was wrong? That was I too hard on
25:21
something? Was I not hard enough on
25:22
something? Like I'm.
25:23
I'm constantly asking these questions because I need that
25:27
feedback. I need that growth in my life.
25:30
And if I'm in error, I need to correct that.
25:32
I need to change that. I need to work on those things
25:35
well as a. As a shepherd, right?
25:37
You're trying to show the sheep how to do it.
25:39
So if if the if the shepherd never does that in front of
25:43
people, how are they going to learn how to do that?
25:46
And if if the sheep are going to be healthy, they have to learn
25:48
about it from the shepherd. Right.
25:51
So this this question that you asked about what's dangerous
25:54
about having a pastor who claims he can't tell his sends to
25:57
anyone else? It reminds me of a verse that so
26:00
many IFB preachers in particular take out of context.
26:05
And that's First Timothy 520, because what they'll do is
26:09
they'll take First Timothy 520 and they'll apply it to everyone
26:13
in the church. Well, let me read the verse
26:15
first. Timothy 520 says those who
26:17
continue in sin rebuke in the presence of all so that the rest
26:22
also will be fearful of sinning. So many churches and pastors use
26:28
this verse as an excuse the parade people in front of the
26:32
church that have repented of their sin.
26:36
When you read the context of this, this is talking about an
26:38
elder. This is talking about a pastor.
26:42
You know you if a pastor remains in sin you bring him before the
26:46
church because the the elder the pastor they're you know they've
26:50
got a higher level of accountability and and this this
26:55
this you know it's ridiculous that a pastor says well I can't
26:59
I can't confess my sins to anyone you commanded to in
27:02
scripture which by the way before I get to my next question
27:08
I want to Ryan, I want to do a plug for your book.
27:11
I haven't read the whole thing but I've definitely read some of
27:15
it. And of course my favorite
27:16
chapter so far is hijacking scripture.
27:21
It's. A good one.
27:22
Oh man, it's like it spoke to my soul.
27:24
Man, this this this report that you wrote about you know, Jesus
27:30
being competitive and how you applied the tactics that you
27:35
know your dad used in scripture that you learn from church and
27:39
scripture growing up. To write that report, just go
27:42
show you how you can misuse scripture.
27:44
I want to read, James. I want to read you my favorite
27:46
quote from this chapter and it says a Bible that only supports
27:51
our politics, our tendencies, or our philosophy isn't the word of
27:56
God. If our God doesn't confront our
27:59
suppositions, either he isn't God or we are gods.
28:04
And so many times we won't let the word of God change us.
28:10
We'll go to the word of God with the philosophy and say no matter
28:15
what the text says, I am not going to let it change my mind.
28:20
I am going to the Bible to prove what I already believe.
28:23
And when we do that, scriptures not informing us we're informing
28:29
scripture. Well, that's my favorite chapter
28:32
in your book so far. I'm definitely going to read.
28:35
There's a there's a few bangers after that.
28:37
One one of the victims that my dad assaulted, I gave her a pre
28:41
production copy. I changed all the names in the
28:43
book except for me and my dad. But, and she said when other
28:48
victims have talked to her or other people related to her or
28:50
whatever, she said start with the last chapter and then start
28:53
over because so many people so far have said the last chapter
28:57
is their favorite, which is good.
28:58
You want the last one to be good.
29:00
But yeah, that I was, I was pretty fiery when I was writing
29:03
that chapter and as you pointed out, it was self deprecating.
29:07
I was talking about how I miss you scripture, because even
29:09
people who leave the faith, and we've seen this right in other
29:12
podcasts and other places on social media, on that pendulum
29:16
you can use the Bible completely the wrong way.
29:18
The other way too right. Like the I think it's somewhere
29:22
in the middle of the book, but Abraham Lincoln said the North
29:25
and the South are both reading the same Bible and both thought
29:27
it approved what they were doing.
29:28
That's that's in that chapter. Yeah.
29:31
Now here's another thing I want to say for asking my next
29:34
question. You talk about some IFB
29:37
preachers in here. You name some, but some you
29:40
don't name, but you just say what they said.
29:43
And me, who's been an Independent, Independent
29:45
Baptist, my own, like, I'm my whole life, I'm like, I know who
29:48
he's talking about because I've heard that preacher say that
29:51
same. Thing.
29:52
Well, you got a pre production copy that has some names in it
29:55
that aren't in the final. One of those preachers
29:58
threatened to sue me. And so I just said, you know
30:00
what, I'm not here to litigate or tear those guys down.
30:04
I'm I'm here to showcase what they said, and I don't need
30:07
their names to showcase what they said and then what?
30:19
Yeah, you guys have a secret version there.
30:22
Hey question about this book as well.
30:23
Before Brett mentions his question, it does come out April
30:26
12th. pre-order is available and I'm told if you use a promo code
30:31
maybe like for freedom that you'll get a discount but I'm
30:33
not sure on that or we'll get a kickback.
30:35
I don't know exactly how that's going to work.
30:37
We're still praying on the details, but hurt and healed by
30:41
the Church. Redemption and Reconstruction
30:44
after spiritual abuse. And I'll link that in our our
30:46
show notes as well. And.
30:47
This subject is so needed, it is man.
30:50
One of the most buzz worthy words right now is
30:53
deconstruction and people take that to mean I'm leaving and I'm
30:58
never coming back. You know, that's that's the
31:01
mentality of what they think the word means.
31:03
And I think this, this subject in this book and what you talk
31:06
about, I think it's greatly needed.
31:08
Which leads me into my question, you know, so many people they're
31:13
they're so and you you were right earlier.
31:15
How could you blame them for everything that they've been
31:18
through and all the trauma that they've experienced.
31:22
But you know if if somebody was listening right now and they
31:27
were hurt by the church and they they're just you know they're
31:31
they're first they're they're done with it.
31:33
But there's a part of them is like man I want to like church
31:37
again. I miss church.
31:39
But I'm just, I was so traumatized by my experience.
31:42
Like there's somebody out there right now struggling with this,
31:46
maybe a a listener to this podcast or somebody that reads
31:49
their book and and they they they've got to the point where
31:53
they may have washed their hands of the whole thing.
31:55
There's a part of them that wants to know how they can, how
31:59
they can reconstruct. And so I want to ask you, after
32:04
everything that you been through, how are you still going
32:08
to church? Like what was the process of
32:11
reconstructing your faith? What was that like?
32:15
Well, I mean the the full answer is 81,000 words that you guys
32:18
are holding on the other end of the screen.
32:21
The short answer is I just fell in love with a winsome Jesus,
32:25
right? Like so.
32:26
So I understand people who walk away from the church or even
32:29
just a specific church or a certain certain brand of church
32:33
and go, OK, set aside church for right now.
32:36
If you're not ready for that, that's triggering.
32:37
Or if that's it causes your heart to tense up.
32:40
There's a physical reaction. You dread church.
32:43
I mean, no one should dread going to church, right?
32:46
So, So what I do is start with start with Jesus and start with
32:49
conversations with Jesus. So I'm a big proponent.
32:51
I don't know if you guys have done any reading on the the
32:53
spiritual pathway. So depending on which program
32:55
you do, it's seven or nine different spiritual pathways of
32:58
how we relate to God. It's kind of like love languages
33:00
but vertically. And so my number one is nature
33:04
and my number two is music. My wife's are different, right?
33:07
She's a server, she's a goat, you know, a theologist.
33:09
She knows the Bible inside and out better than I do actually.
33:12
But for me it's getting alone in nature.
33:15
And So what I've done is I've spent a lot of time on the
33:17
mountain alone or with other believers with worship music or
33:20
whatever and just saying God, I want to be read, I want to be
33:23
seen. I want to know you Sunday this,
33:26
this Sunday in church we switched up to it's like every
33:28
quarter in our church they don't do a sermon.
33:31
They do stations of of introspection.
33:33
They give you little assignments to do and you move around the
33:35
building and do. And this lady walked up to me
33:37
and she handed me a card. I never met this lady before,
33:39
and her card says I want to feel God's presence in my heart.
33:42
I mean, that's just amazing how real that was, to hand that to a
33:45
stranger. But I was ready to pray for her
33:47
because I've had that conversation with Jesus dozens
33:50
if not scores of times up on the mountain.
33:52
I live in the Blue Ridge Mountains and just go, God, I I
33:54
want to know who the real you is.
33:57
And why wouldn't he answer that if he said if you seek me, you
33:59
will find me. If you seek with your whole
34:01
heart if you got to push church aside for a while.
34:03
Jesus isn't church, he's at church.
34:05
He he says he's anywhere where believers are gathered, but it
34:08
doesn't have to be a building. And so part of why I'm in do
34:11
group, which is outdoor prayer and Bible study group, part of
34:15
why I do so many backpacking trips with people of church,
34:17
people of faith, people who are exploring faith, people who are
34:20
reconstructing, is to say, hey, why don't we work on a
34:23
relationship with Jesus? And then maybe he'll guide you
34:25
back, and he will. He'll guide you to a place where
34:27
you are safe to worship him, to serve him, to serve others.
34:31
And so counseling was huge for me.
34:34
Getting into therapy was just massive for me.
34:36
I've tomorrow will be like my fifth year in a row, like of
34:41
weekly sessions. And so that was huge for me.
34:44
My counselors are Christian counselors.
34:45
That helps. But learning that spiritual
34:47
pathway was huge. Being around Christians who
34:50
aren't fake, having pastors and teachers who say, hey, I don't
34:54
know or I've changed or I made a mistake here or this is what I'm
34:57
struggling with from stage or personally off stage or whatever
35:01
going man these, this is real to them that that they're not
35:05
holding up their relationship with God with a checklist or
35:08
anything they've done. They.
35:09
I just watched people worship not just in music but like in
35:13
conversation. Whatever.
35:14
I've I've seen people relate to the supernatural ways.
35:17
I go that is utterly attractive and whatever they have, I want
35:20
it. And for whatever reason I'm
35:22
surrounded with a bunch of those people and they've come into my
35:25
life. They they're not all the same
35:26
people over the last 20 years. You know, some come in for a
35:28
year and a half, some come in for 10 or whatever.
35:31
You just go, man. I felt like I was put on this
35:33
planet to meet you. I felt like this moment was
35:36
scheduled before. I'll.
35:38
I'll give you a recent story. So I went to Iceland on
35:40
Thanksgiving break. I said, hey babe, I have some
35:44
some airline miles. Can I blow them on Thanksgiving
35:46
break before our daughter comes home?
35:46
She's like, sure. So I go over to Iceland.
35:48
I was struggling with a whole bunch of stuff and I I just did
35:51
not see the future. I was like, God, I don't even
35:52
know what's going on. So I go to this town named
35:55
Victoria VIK, which is where we get our word.
35:56
Viking. It's black sand beach, black
35:59
rocks. It's at night, the water's
36:01
black, the Sky's black. I'm listening to worship music,
36:03
crying about how I don't understand what's going on.
36:06
I'm like, God, I want to see you.
36:08
And my life right now feels like this black abyss fast.
36:11
So that was a Tuesday night. I come home.
36:13
Our church used to have Saturday evening services.
36:15
I went to the Saturday evening service.
36:17
Our guys at our church had no idea where I'd been, the prayer,
36:20
none of that. And the picture behind the
36:23
lyrics while we're singing worship.
36:24
That Saturday night was from Victoria Beach and it's as if
36:28
you said I saw you there. I saw, I know you don't know the
36:32
future, I do, but I'm going to walk through it with you.
36:35
And it was just these compounded hundreds of these personal
36:38
moments, both alone and with people who are on just have this
36:42
relationship with Jesus. It's kind of like when you see a
36:44
couple and you're like, dude, I would love for my wife to look
36:47
at me the way that that wife is looking at her.
36:49
Or you see, man, I wish my kids looked at me the way that that
36:52
dude's kids look at him or what, You know what I'm saying?
36:55
I looked at people who are looking at Jesus as like, man,
36:57
I've not looked at Jesus like that and I want to.
37:00
And once you're safe with their hearts, then you're safe in your
37:02
shared spaces. And I it's not my church isn't
37:06
exclusive to it. Like I said, one of the reasons
37:08
we started do group was or one of the benefits of starting do
37:12
group is we've attracted guys from up to a half dozen
37:14
different churches. And so nobody's like, well my
37:16
church has the answer, right. And it's not that we're all
37:19
hiding from all of our churches know we're doing this as far as
37:22
I know. And they're just like, yeah, if
37:24
if that's where you guys feel safe, have church on Wednesday
37:26
night and then come back to your other church on Sunday.
37:29
That's so great. And it brings a whole new
37:31
meaning to that passage of Scripture that we know, so
37:34
familiar with. But we sometimes quote Scripture
37:37
because we know it and we don't let it penetrate our heart.
37:41
You know, Psalms 23, even though I walk through the valley of the
37:43
shadow of death, I don't fear an evil because you're with me.
37:47
You know, you're you're there, you're walking.
37:49
And God says, hey, I'm with you. I know you're there.
37:52
I'm walking with you. You don't even see me, but I'm
37:55
there with you. And it brings such a whole new
37:58
meaning of hope and peace to our life when we can understand that
38:02
God's there with us and. It's not just the happy things,
38:05
right? Like some, some of the most
38:07
amazing spiritual encounters I've had are with people who are
38:10
grieving. Yeah, right.
38:12
Or with or in my own loss, right, like the moments I had.
38:16
I thought my daughter's African American.
38:18
And I remember after Ahmaud Arbery was shot, of being up
38:22
alone in the mountain. And think about, like, what if
38:23
that's my daughter, you know, like she's just walking around
38:26
the neighborhood and someone chased her down and shoots her.
38:28
And I was like, God, that what needs to change in my heart so
38:31
that I can be the change in the world so that my daughter is
38:34
safe. You know, I have guys in my life
38:37
who've they met Jesus because they lost their marriage.
38:40
They met Jesus because they lost their business.
38:42
One of my mentors, he's 76, just an incredible dude.
38:47
But he lost his son, 24 years old.
38:48
He was our youth pastor. And a car rolled over him in a
38:51
freak accident on the side of the road.
38:52
He's changing a tire. And you just when you watch
38:55
someone suffer, well you go. The world doesn't know how to
38:58
suffer. And I would contend IFB people
39:01
don't either. They throw cliche band aids on
39:03
things they don't know how to suffer and mourn well.
39:05
But when I saw someone so connected with Jesus that they
39:08
put their arms in the air and say, God, I trust you, I just
39:11
lost my son. But I trust you man.
39:14
Why wouldn't I want what they have?
39:16
Yeah, you. That that reminds me of
39:19
Ecclesiastes 72. It is better to go to the House
39:22
of mourning than to go to the House of feasting.
39:25
For that is the end of all men, and the living will lay it to
39:29
his heart, and and you'll get closer to God in the House of
39:33
mourning than you will in the House of feasting.
39:36
That verse came to my mind as you were talking.
39:39
Yeah, I find him in both, but I'm glad he is in both.
39:42
Yeah, absolutely. Well, the, I'm actually going to
39:45
add one more question at the very end.
39:47
But the last plan question that we had, what are some of the
39:51
biggest misconceptions about abuse and spiritual manipulation
39:56
in the church. So of course that you've got
40:00
podcast upon podcast articles that you can find that that will
40:04
tell you what abuse is. What abuse isn't what
40:07
Classifieds as abuse or manipulation you know of course,
40:11
our. Motto or our Our theme is
40:14
Galatians 61 finding freedom in Christ because Christ is set us
40:18
free, no longer to be under the yoke of bondage, but to live in
40:21
the freedom of Christ. And so, living in that freedom
40:25
and knowing what that freedom is, what is some of the
40:28
misconceptions about abuse that you may experience in the church
40:32
or manipulation? Several.
40:35
One is, I don't think people realize how rampant it is once,
40:39
once your once your eyes have been tuned to it.
40:41
So my wife works women's ministry in our church, but she
40:43
also, as our missions director, does a lot of work in Central
40:46
America with sex trafficking victims and stuff.
40:49
And you know, 35 to 40% of the women in her ministry here in
40:53
the state have been sexually assaulted or molested or
40:54
whatever. And then you go whoa, whoa,
40:56
whoa, whoa, that's in the church.
40:58
How much is it outside the church?
41:00
And what it does is it tunes your eyes to today.
41:02
It's way more than what we think, right?
41:05
The other is this is a big one. You guys may have seen this with
41:08
some of your other guests. Definitely in the podcast we
41:10
we've both listened to. Is that particularly IFB?
41:14
But this is all denominations. They'll say, hey, don't tell
41:17
people because it'll hurt the gospel like no, no, no, no, no.
41:20
Jesus called. Jesus called out those who hurt
41:23
children. One of the harshest things he
41:25
ever said was it's better for a millstone to put around your
41:27
neck and be thrown into the sea than to hurt a child.
41:30
The other is that people assume that the system is meant to
41:34
protect the shepherd, not the sheep.
41:36
And so if you're in a church that protects the shepherd
41:38
instead of the sheep, like, run as fast as you can and then the
41:42
last is read, read your Bible. This sounds really fundamental,
41:46
but so many times, so many passes I've heard misuse
41:49
scripture because they know the person on the other end does not
41:52
know that that's wrong. Like, they don't have a context
41:55
like what you said earlier. Like that verse is for elders,
41:58
right? That verse isn't for
41:59
parishioners. That's for the elders.
42:01
You knew that because you'd studied Timothy, right?
42:04
And so I think if the more educated parishioners or
42:07
congregants or whatever word you use in your church would the
42:09
people in the pews or chairs or tables, the more of the
42:13
scripture they know, the more they can push back and say,
42:15
well, hey, I don't, that's not what that verse is for.
42:18
You know, it's so educating ourselves to how Jesus actually
42:22
treated victims, how Jesus actually treated women, how
42:24
Jesus treated his enemies, how Jesus treated any number of
42:27
categories of people. We'll push back on whatever
42:31
vitriol we're hearing from the pulpit.
42:34
I I was manipulated for so many years that the pastor that I
42:38
grew up under, I later worked for in the first part of my
42:42
ministry. And you know, when you're in
42:44
manipulation, you really don't see it.
42:47
But looking back, I can just see how Scripture was used to
42:51
manipulate me. And and we definitely need to be
42:54
like those Bereans and you know, examine for ourselves and not
42:58
take things just on the surface and be aware and test things
43:03
that are said. He's the pastor of the church.
43:06
He's not the Baptist Pope. You know, it's not the.
43:10
He's not the end. All.
43:12
You know, he's a man just like us.
43:15
You put your faith in a man and in a human being, and humans
43:18
will let you down. But you know, the word of God in
43:21
Jesus Christ will never let. And I I want to add one last
43:26
question here at the end, just because we're all ex IFB guys,
43:31
you know, looking back, were there any red flags about the
43:35
IFB that you wish you had seen? Or that you did see that you
43:40
maybe, you know, thought man, I don't know if that's right or
43:42
not. You know, sort of sort of go
43:44
both ways. Not saying that you knew or you,
43:47
you know, whatever, but what's what's your thoughts on that?
43:50
I So I knew something was off, right?
43:53
But I don't. I didn't have the language at
43:56
the time to understand that it was a red flag.
43:59
Like, I was like, that can't be right.
44:01
You know, like there's something amiss here.
44:04
And I didn't know enough Scripture.
44:06
I didn't know because in my faith, you tend to stick to the
44:09
passages that agree with you, Right.
44:12
And so it wasn't later, after the 2016 election, when
44:15
everyone's like, hey, we need to read diverse voices.
44:17
We need to we're on these opinion silos.
44:20
I started reading like 4050, sixty nonfiction books a year
44:23
and real Christian authors, non Christian authors, people of
44:28
different faiths, you know, whatever.
44:29
And going, oh, they have language for it that I didn't
44:33
have because I was in my silo, right.
44:36
Therapy was huge for that to go. I I never call what my dad did
44:39
to me abuse. I mean I said some of the things
44:42
that you see in that book, in the first chapter, in the last
44:44
chapter. My dad, you know, froze me at
44:47
30° under Fahrenheit below 0 to to discipline me or throw me
44:52
through a wall or hang me or whatever and you go.
44:55
I just thought my dad was super tough, you know, like he was
44:58
doing object lessons. It never occurred to me that
45:01
that was abuse. Now my body knew it.
45:03
My heart rate was frenzied. I was scared to be around my
45:06
dad, right? Like those things shouldn't.
45:08
I would learn decades later. Those things should have been
45:10
red flags me. But when that's the only world,
45:13
you know you just accepted. That's part of the one of the
45:16
guys I grew up with called me on the phone.
45:17
He got his pre production copy and we were comparing notes.
45:20
He's like, I don't think our parents were that bad, man.
45:23
And I was like, I mean my dad hung me like I don't know what
45:28
to tell you. Like my dad choked me.
45:30
My dad threatened to knock my teeth out.
45:31
My dad, you know, and he told me, hey, you know in the Old
45:34
Testament, we we would have stoned you you'd be dead by now.
45:36
So you should be grateful that this is all we're doing to you
45:39
And they weaponized scripture, which is another kind of abuse.
45:42
And so I was like, man, I even even 20 years later, I said, you
45:46
wouldn't do that to your daughters.
45:47
I wouldn't. I wouldn't do that to my
45:49
daughter. You know.
45:51
So it was becoming a dad helped going to therapy help reading
45:54
books, helped to go, oh, the things that something was off.
45:58
But I couldn't put a label on it.
45:59
Now I have words and labels for got you.
46:02
Man, that's so powerful. It's so powerful to know that
46:05
and you know I can, I can agree with that as well.
46:08
Looking back and and even hearing other people's story.
46:10
You know that watching that documentary that we we talked
46:13
about at the beginning with the let us pray and seeing them the
46:18
the response of some of the people of saying well they were
46:21
they they should have known but we we didn't know.
46:23
That's the thing we we were told that that's what we should do.
46:26
We should submit and we should listen and and if our pastor
46:30
says we should do something, we should do it.
46:32
So when a pastor calls and says I need someone, well we do it,
46:36
no questions asked. And so there's there, there is
46:39
that, that side of it to understand and know Looking back
46:43
backwards, we see a lot more. You know what's?
46:45
Yeah, I don't think a lot of people realize that when I say
46:48
the word the Bible is a a weapon.
46:51
I mean that literally. Like if someone told you when
46:54
you were a kid, put a gun to your head and say don't say
46:55
anything, it'll hurt my reputation.
46:57
You wouldn't because it was a gun.
46:59
If they did a knife or whatever it was, if they said, hey, we're
47:01
gonna hurt your mom. So all it was was we had the
47:04
same thing we had the same whether you call it mafia or
47:07
gang or whatever. But instead of guns, they used
47:10
the Bible. And so that that's our
47:13
connection to the divine. Why would we want to turn that
47:16
spicket off? And so they just use a different
47:19
weapon than what, you know, somebody on the South side of
47:21
Baltimore or whatever, you know, would would encounter.
47:25
Yeah. Watch out for the She Bears.
47:30
Did you get to that chapter yet? Dude, that's such a fun.
47:32
I did read that and it was one of my favorite parts.
47:36
I love that part. Well, Ryan, thank you so much
47:38
for coming on. It's been a pleasure to talk
47:40
with you and I know that this is going to help people and this is
47:45
is going to be a great great asset.
47:47
Again, if you haven't pre-ordered the book or you
47:50
haven't heard about it, go to Amazon.
47:52
I'll I'll put a link on there wherever you get your books at.
47:56
Again, Hurt and Healed by the Church, Redemption and
48:00
Reconstruction After Spiritual Abuse, It's a great read.
48:04
It's an easy read. From what I've read so far.
48:08
It's only 27 chapters, but but again, those chapters flow very
48:11
easily. Just a couple 100 pages and it's
48:14
a great, great time of just helping.
48:18
Again, put some verbiage to where you're at and understand
48:21
the life that you're in and maybe experienced.
48:24
If there's anything we can ever do to to reach out to us, Ryan's
48:28
on social media. You can write.
48:29
Reach out to him on his social media tags under his name and I
48:34
know that he'll be be a great asset for you to to walk through
48:37
life. Brett, anything from me to say?
48:40
Yeah. Let me just say as me
48:43
personally, someone who's been raised Independent Fundamental
48:47
Baptist and who who's out of fundamentalism now, if that's
48:52
your story, you have to get this book.
48:56
This book is like a mirror, and it will.
49:00
It speaks to so many of the experiences.
49:03
And as I'm reading it, it's bringing back to memory things
49:07
that I went through and helping me process things.
49:11
I didn't even know I needed to process this.
49:13
So if you're in this camp with us, you're part of this family,
49:17
you've got to get this book, you've got to read it.
49:20
It's a great read. I haven't finished it.
49:22
I'm going to Ryan, thank you so much for sharing your story, for
49:27
writing this book. And thank you so much for being
49:29
with us today. It was a pleasure.
49:31
Thanks guys. Absolutely.
49:33
And remember, as always, if not more important today than ever
49:37
to God. Not the pastor.
49:40
Be the glory. Found that good grace.
49:46
Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face.
49:50
When I found my beginning. That has no ending.
49:52
I found that second chance. Found my best friend.
49:54
Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness.
49:56
I've been singing ever since I found my freedom.
50:13
Thanks for listening to the For Freedom podcast.
50:16
If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking,
50:19
subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast
50:23
platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for
50:26
the For Freedom podcast.