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From Aspen to Rock Bottom: The Journey to Inner Healing With Daniel Sterling · The Mentor Sessions

• BigMike: We're happy to have you on the mentor sessions today. ⁓ why don't we start out and you can go ahead and tell us a little about yourself and your journey and and how you got to where you are now. Daniel: Mike, great ⁓ great to be here. Thank you for having me on. So we were chatting a bit before the show started, and I was telling Mike what a ⁓ a great thing it is to recognize mentorship in this w in this world we live today, because ⁓ personally, without mine, I ⁓ I call it suffering without purpose. So before I met her, she was ⁓ a little bit older than me and had insights and could read energy and was smart as a whip. So I met my match, but before I met her, I was doing just that. I was struggling and had sort of bottomed out in my life. And so BigMike: Welcome back to the Mentor Sessions. I'm your host, Big Mike. My guest today is Daniel Sterling. His story is one I think many of us can relate to. Daniel spent much of his life chasing success from elite ski racing in Colorado to television news ⁓ filmmaking, always searching for that next achievement that might finally bring him a sense of purpose and fulfillment. But like many of us discover, accomplishment and meaning aren't always the same thing. But everything changed when Daniel Daniel: At that point, I was indeed at 39 years old suffering without purpose because I had no understanding of what it was to live any sort of meaningful life and to be of service and ⁓ be a good citizen. So after my experience with her, which reframed my entire life in every way imaginable and in the best way imaginable. BigMike: hit a difficult season in midlife and crossed paths with a remarkable mentor who challenged him to take a deeper look ⁓ at and the life he was living. In this conversation we're going to talk about failure, self-discovery, the power of mentorship, ⁓ and journey that ultimately led Daniel to write his upcoming book, Hungry. ⁓ So in, sit back, and join me for a conversation with Daniel Sterling. Daniel: I sit here today in such a better emotional state. So ⁓ people talk about gratitude. Well, I words can't express my gratitude for her presence and patience and ⁓ sharing what her what she knew, her own struggles with me, and calling me to attention because she was At times very tough and rigorous with me because I was a pain in the ass and argumentative and defiant and believing that I was right and had answers. So yeah, to say she had an impact on my life was a great understatement. BigMike: So why don't tell me ⁓ if you could tell us where you were before you met her and and I know you said you grew up out there in the Denver area, so tell us about your life growing up and and your experience and how you came to meet this ⁓ mentor of yours and ⁓ at 39 and and you know, let us get to know who you are a little bit and we'll get down into the nitty-gritty of it. Daniel: Thank you. So I grew up in Aspen, actually. before it, before it what it is today, which is an abomination and filled with obnoxious wealthy people. Some very good people, but still it is what it is. So I always like to say that I won my first ski race. I was an alpine ski racer, and I won my first race at eight years old and it filled me with all these awesome chemicals and I was like, ooh, this is good. I like this. So essentially from that point on, I like to say that I went out into the world looking for the love that had gone missing in my home. ⁓ I was one of five kids. We had two cousins that lived with us. So chaotic and and a certain amount of neglect in our childhood. And an older brother who was ⁓ tyrannical with me. So I was stuck in my circumstances. And I was figuring all this stuff out on my own because my parents were in, you know, they had their positives and they gave us an incredible amount of freedom. And we grew up across the street from a ski area. So I was on skis at three years old. So ski racing became my identity. And it It fed my ego and I became that. ⁓ I was my ego. But I didn't I would say I saw the top of the mountain in the results that I got. I was close, I was top 10 in the nation. So I could see the top of the mountain, but I couldn't get there. And it it ate me up. And so I gave it my all. I mean, I was. Dedicated for 16 years and finally at 24, I just bottomed out and I was like, I can't do this anymore. I don't want to do this. I was essentially torturing myself and because it was never enough. My results were never enough. So I transitioned into broadcasting. I was like, well, ⁓ if I can't ski race anymore, I'll talk about what I know and love. And so I became a television news reporter in in Albuquerque of all places. I was an outdoor reporter, my news director liked me, gave me this beat, and so I was out in the wilds doing stories on caving and ice climbing, and I was doing ski tips. And once again, it was ego ego aggrandizement. It was I was visible, I was looking for accolades in the world, and you know, it was a rush, and I was on camera and people recognized me, and I thought This is pretty great. I did that for five years and and I was like, well, this is not doing it for me anymore. So I thought, well, I've got some background in editing and I'm a writer and I, you know, I know lighting and framing. So I'll move to Southern California and write and direct feature films. That was my aspiration. And and my inn would be writing screenplays. So I moved to Newport Beach and wrote five screenplays. was, you know, once again, threw myself into it and and learned as much as I could, took classes and read screenplays. And I was trying to crack this code of what it was to write a very good screenplay because I have always loved movies. And I couldn't get representation. So I would pose as my own agent and I'd shot my scripts all around town and Los Angeles and then call and say, you know, I represent my client Daniel Sterling and we sent you a script and I'm following up. So I mean I was like just hungry, which happens to be the name of my memoir that I've written about ⁓ all this crazy behavior of mine, which included a lot of drug use and self-medication and running around the mountains and doing all these risky things that I thought was gonna add to the quality of my life. So that was when I bottomed out after I wrote those five screenplays at 39 and I was broke and miserable and thinking, what is going on here? You know, it there's gotta be more than this. And that's when I met her. So BigMike: ⁓ so during that time ⁓ that you were hungry and trying to figure out your life and what you were doing, what would you say the influences in your life were like? Was was there anyone you felt was trying to get you to change course and you were resistant to them, or did people were people pushing you and trying to help you succeed? Daniel: That's ⁓ that is the most important question. And the answer is an unequivocal no. And I was desperate for an adult to take an interest in me. That is the truth. you know, someone what I like to call a wise tribal elder, right? Someone who would put his hand on my shoulder and say, not this way, my boy, the other way. I never found it, Mike. And I needed it so bad. My father was not it. I mean, he was he was tough and ⁓ he had a lot of financial responsibilities and they they moved to Aspen, built a ski lodge, which was a tough thing to do at the time because it was not the tourism industry that it is today. So ⁓ and there was long off seasons in Aspen. The mud season in the spring and the fall before the snow flew and the lifts opened. So ⁓ it was tough growing up in that town to make a living. And so my father was financially stressed and ⁓ pissed off a lot. So I avoided him. I needed him in my life, but he was not gonna be that for me. He was not gonna talk to me, he was not gonna communicate, he was not gonna have an expectation of me, he was not gonna provide any kind of structure. So I I became I became this feral kid. and surviving and you know crashing and burning and figuring it out from there. It's like, well that didn't work. So I gotta try something different. And what is that going to be? And when times got tough for me, I I isolated and which was really worked against me. So to answer your question, Mike, there was no one. BigMike: ⁓ you mentioned ⁓ a wise tribal elder and that's one of the messages that I like to share and talk to people about is the importance of those of us who have crashed and burned several times, those of us who have experienced different difficulties, how it it behooves us. It almost becomes I don't I'm gonna take that back. It doesn't almost it becomes our duty to step up and fill those roles for people. ⁓ and because we know the mistakes. ⁓ you know, I see it with I've seen it with my kids. ⁓ now that I'm on a I don't know if we talked about this or if you saw it in my bio, but I I own a semi-pro football team and I work with a lot of really good young men that you can tell a lot of their lives, they they lack that direction and they don't have someone that's been there for them. And so we have that obligation, kind of like the the mentor we're gonna get into a little bit here. for you, but we have that obligation to step back. The way I like to look at it, ⁓ and I was and this is the way I I frame it is when I was in law enforcement, I was a guardian of the tribe. And it was my role to to guard the tribe and protect the tribe from outsiders that would try to do us harm, ⁓ you know, prey, animals, wolves, and bears and so forth. But then as I retired And even as I got later in my career, I realized, okay, my job now is to help train and help share all that knowledge and wealth that I've learned, ⁓ wealth of information, and not hold on to it. Because it it's not gonna do me any good now in my in my later years. ⁓ you know, it keeps me safe personally, but to help those that next generation of officers help share freely with them to give ⁓ that. So I I I really liked when you talked about how you were seeking for someone, you were seeking for that tribal elder to give you that ⁓ relationship that you miss. You mentioned your older brother was kind of A tyrant in the home and dad was stressed. So I ⁓ I lived in Utah for 25 years. We talked about that. So I was real familiar with Park City ⁓ in the off season. ⁓ now Park City's going all year long. It's it's very big and busy like Aspen is. But yeah, in the off season, we would get great hotel deals and stay at really nice cabins for really good prices because they were just happy to get someone up there. So ⁓ Daniel: That's right. BigMike: You shopped your manuscripts around or your your screenplays around, not much success there. Excuse me there. And then you ran into this mentor. Tell me about that relationship and that situation. Daniel: No. No. So I was at the time I was in relationship, I was in Tahoe working construction with a friend of mine. I was at 39, I was like, ⁓ my God, I gotta go back and and wear the nail bag and pound nails again. I was like, just kill me now. ⁓ but I went to ⁓ on a whim on I went to a writer's conference and crossed paths with this woman and she was ⁓ Also living in Newport Beach. So we talked about working together. And so I finished up the job there in Tahoe and went and moved back south to Newport. And she and I took up again and she was editing a book for this guy, Lloyd. Lloyd had a men's group. I'd never been in a men's group. I'd never been in therapy. I didn't know anything. So he took pity on me and invited me. And I showed up there, and there's five of us, five guys in Lloyd. Know he's like, we're gonna welcome this new member, Daniel, and tell us a little bit about yourself. And I started talking, and I I lost it. I the deeper I got into this update of mine about my life at the time, I just broke down and I was just weeping in this group of strangers. And I looked up and I was embarrassed, and I thought, ⁓ my god, what's happening to me? But it was cathartic. I mean, I I had no one to talk to and share all this with and unload on. And, you know, the power of dialogue is really an incredible thing. And so I continued to show up for the men's meeting and I met this guy, Daniel, and he was doing the hair. He's a stylist. He was doing the hair of this woman who became my mentor. And he one night after our group, he said, you should meet her. She's amazing. I was like, great, what's that mean? She said she's conscious and and insightful. And I was like, conscious, okay, great, whatever that is. So ⁓ he set it up, and I we the three of us met for dinner. And I could just the minute I looked her in the eye, I was like, ⁓ my God, I swear to God that she could see all the way through me. And I came to learn that that that was the truth. She could. She could read energy like nobody's business. So in her very sort of offhand way, she said, Well, tell me about your life. So I proceeded to tell her the story of my family. You know, and the brother was a a very good ski racer and an Olympian. And I wanted that so bad for me. And it just ate at me that he didn't give a shit about it, but I did. And It all came very easy to him. so I talked about him and my father who was funny and entertaining, and my mother who was a had a column in Ski Magazine and was this published writer, and so this very shiny account of my family. And so on and on I went about, you know, how great it was. And she looked at me at the end of that and said, That all sounds great. Why are you so miserable? And I was like, ⁓ my God, that's your takeaway after all that. So that was the beginning. And it was just there was something about her that that scared, scared me because I knew that I through her eyes, I had to look inward at myself, at ⁓ this troubled past of mine that I didn't want to look at. But I did. And so it began this relationship with her. And To her credit, she was very patient with me, but there was times where she had to get tough and say, that's enough. And when I again was defiant and argumentative, and I there was a group of seven of us. We would meet every Monday. And there would be those six looking at me and saying, you know, this comment that you made that you're trying to be funny. I I didn't find it funny. And I was looking at them like you guys are so wrong. And I am right on this. And that was me for a long period of time with her and with them. Until finally I looked at them and they, you know, in this another tough moment where I was in what we called the hot seat, where I'd said some smart ass thing or, you know, was defiant and they're looking at me and I Finally said, I I don't want to fight anymore. I it doesn't get in me anywhere. You guys are telling me that I am off base and out of line and I don't believe it, but I know that you care about me and love me. So I'm going to start to listen and just go, okay, I'm gonna look at this ⁓ because I I know you guys have my greater good at heart. And that was the beginning for me of finally starting to. Take some personal accountability, which I am a huge believer in. And ⁓ today it's like second nature to me, where I just go, ooh, I think I just overstepped and said that smart ass thing that I thought I was being funny. And I'd look at my friend and say, you know, I'm gonna take I'm gonna take that back. ⁓ I was trying to be funny and I think maybe I overstepped. So this being proactive in this. self-accountability way is very empowering, I find. BigMike: Yeah. First thing I wanna say on that is you talk about excuse me. I get a new chair today, so I'm excited about that. But you you you talk about the first men's group where all of a sudden you just opened up and let it out and then you go to this other group and it sounded like and maybe I missed the message there, but you came into it very guarded still. ⁓ did you still work with both groups or did you transfer from one group to the other? Daniel: ⁓ good question. Yeah, I left that hanging. So ⁓ yeah, the men's group ended for me. You know, I I just stopped going because I transferred into ⁓ transferred, you know, I began to grow my relationship with this other group. And that just sort of happened, you know. ⁓ Daniel was doing hair with this other woman, she joined, her boyfriend joined, they knew this other woman, she joined, and we just all sort of came together and created something pretty great. ⁓ But ⁓ yeah, I I fought her for a long time until I said, you know, this is not serving me. And so like I say, I give her a lot of credit because I was not easy. And ⁓ BigMike: Sure. So was there a particular moment ⁓ that you decided I can't keep fighting anymore? You know, I I'm I'm doing more damage just by fighting instead of letting the work work. Daniel: Well, yeah, there I couldn't put my finger on an exact moment, but I remember it. I have a very strong memory of just saying, I I'm not gonna fight this anymore. And I'm just going to start speaking honestly, honestly about what is going on within me, which is I looked at them, I said, you know, my feeling right now is you guys are full of shit. I don't know if I'm ⁓ allowed to use this language on your show, Mike, but that was the truth. BigMike: Well, remember I hang around football players and I was with cops my whole life. So ⁓ hopefully the guests the the audience doesn't mind, but yeah, it comes out and I'm okay with it. Daniel: Any good. Okay, good. ⁓ so I had built up such defenses because in the world that I grew up with, and I'm actually writing a second book about my life growing up in Aspen, which is there was a lot of dysfunction in that valley and a lot of ⁓ there was abuse of teachers, abuse of adults. You know, a lot of heavy drinking, a lot of drugs, and you know, the a lot of angry men. And so I was at the mercy of these older male figures, starting with the brother, and you know, the father was tough on me, and you know, teachers in school, so I had to protect myself and So I developed this hard edge to me, smart ass, critical, condescending, you know, I didn't like who I was, but I had to ⁓ survive. And so these were just coping mechanisms that I developed based on what was coming at me at the time. So I had to peel all that back. with our group, with my mentor, you know, a layer at a time. And it was not an easy process. It scared the shit out of me, honestly, to really look inward and start to accept, you know, these all this image and this ego that I had created and constructed around myself. And so it was a it was a long process. But it was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. Without question. BigMike: Yeah. I think a lot of people from our generation, ⁓ I think we're probably about the same age. I'm fifty two. you seem to be around the same age. And ⁓ we all grew up with that cynical hard shell because that that's our generation, that's that generation X, right? That We all kind of have that cynical approach to things. ⁓ as you started breaking things down, what was the first thing that you realized about yourself when you were able to start breaking down those defenses? Daniel: So that a very good question. And so as a I'm an Enneagram four. And if people who are fours and know about this understand that ⁓ I keep my own counsel, I keep to myself a lot. I I crave community and relationships, but ⁓ the way that I survived as a kid was to isolate. Like the brother would tie me to a tree and leave me for two hours, literally. And he'd come and free me up. And I would run home and climb up into what we called our crow's nest and our our ski lodge. And because I knew that my parents were not gonna protect me from him. And that was a devastating thing. So whenever things did not go well, Tough ski race, a big fall in a ski race, you know, where I was winning the training runs. ⁓ I would, it was devastating to me. And I had no way to process and or understand any of it. And I was so invested in winning that it just it tore me up. So I would, you know, blow up on a ski race and I would isolate for 10 days and not talk to anyone. And so my mentor. She was just not going to allow that because she knew that it didn't serve me. And so when I was in a difficult place with myself within the group, you know, we'd travel and there was nowhere for me to go. And we talked about everything. And those moments when I was really struggling with myself, when all I wanted to do was run for the hills and get out of whatever, you know, them looking at me in a room. When I had to sit through that and talk about That was really hard for me. And so I would just I a turning point for me came when I started sort of naming what was going on with me. It's like, I don't want to be here with you guys. I I really don't like any of you right now. I think you're full of shit. What you're telling me is wrong, and you know, I I believe that I'm so right in what, you know, this this stance I'm taking right now. As I began to talk about it and talk my way through it, she would encourage that and say, good, that's that's the truth of it. And they weren't offended by any of it. And so it would start to become very liberating for me. It's like, ⁓ my God, here I am again in the hot seat. And I, you know, I don't want to be in this room with you guys. I don't like any of you right now. I wish you would all just kind of go to hell. But as I talked my way through it, I we used to call it getting to the other side, where I would, it was like this great release for me. And I could finally sort of process all this pent-up frustration and anger and self-anger that I'd been building up over 40 years, literally. Now I finally had a ⁓ a platform, a a place to release all that. And then get feedback. And that is where mentorship is so powerful. ⁓ you talk about your law enforcement history, Mike. So a couple years ago, I crossed paths with this woman that I grew up with in Aspen and didn't know her. But through circumstances, I found out that she was a facilitator in this prison system in California, Central California, in the valley, where they grow all the strawberries and. garlic and all the rest. And so I reached out to her. I was very energized by this. And she said, Absolutely, come out. It's called grip. ⁓ Can't think of the acronym right now. Guiding rage into power is what it is. So it's this very organized program that's been going on in ⁓ this a couple of the prisons out there for a lot of years. This guy created it. And it's these guys coming to a meeting once a month and taking ownership of these bad deeds that they did in their life. Murder, rape, you name it. So I went out there and sat in a circle with these this tribe, they called it their tribe. They were, they were the 979, I think it was, which was the number was their cumulative years that they'd served behind bars, these 30 guys. So you talk about an eye-opening experience, but where I'm going with this is that they told this story about this tribe in Africa called the Babemba. I was like, great, the Babembas. So in this tribe, when one of the youngsters starts to go sideways, get in trouble. Let's say it's a boy, because it's usually the boys that act out. So they would call a meeting of the entire tribe and gather in a circle and put this, let's say he's 13 years old, this young boy in the center. And they would go around the circle and everybody would have a different account of their experience with this kid. And what they would do is feed back to him his qualities. ⁓ How kind he was, ⁓ how creative he was, how compassionate he was, how ⁓ determined he was, whatever it was, they all had a different aspect of who he was. So what they were doing is they were affirming back to him and reminding him of who he is. And and so they would encourage him to be that person and and To remember that that is his path to be that fine young man that was going to grow into this incredible man and a citizen of the world who could be someone of substance and give back in a meaningful way. So this story has stayed with me, and I'm actually writing it into this book, what I jokingly call the man book. So this book of mine is the the overriding theme is that somewhere in raising a boy, there is a sweet spot of a father's influence, of rigor and ⁓ structure, and a little bit of fear. Fearing the father a little bit is not a bad thing. And you know, also the father. you know, talking to the kid, communicating, saying, you know, this is what I expect of you. I see great things in you, son. And I want you to achieve that. And I want you to be that. And then the mother who is nurturing and kind and ⁓ wise and supportive. And so there's that is missing so much in our world today. and I I survived my childhood. And I wouldn't wish it on anyone because I have I've got some horror stories of you know being mishandled by the men in that town. So we have to do better. And so I'm very energized about this book. BigMike: Yeah, that sounds really interesting, especially the part about the ⁓ the the African tribe you're talking about. ⁓ because that's something that I I believe in is very important, is especially and it you know, ⁓ you went through the same thing in in your group with your group of friends through your mentor, is there comes a point where you need to take accountability and also be held accountable and Daniel: Members. BigMike: know how your actions are affecting those around you. ⁓ sometimes when we isolate, like you talked about, and and you would isolate for ten days and self-isolate, ⁓ we get very ⁓ it's easy to fall in that victim trap that everything is is against you and you know the world is out to get you and and it's wrong. And then when you get surrounded by those that love and care about you, it gives you a chance to like reconnect and and reconcile that. ⁓ you know, that's why I think having a tribe of close friends, I always tell my people that y my friends and stuff like that that it's very like much like ⁓ concentric circles of friendships. You've got those that are really tight that those are the ones you you know you can call and they're there for you anything. You know, I have friends like that that even though they still may be ⁓ back in Utah, I know if I call them and say, Hey, I need you right now, I can expect them on my doorstep within four hours, ⁓ or whatever it takes for them to get here. and ⁓ In fact I was having a conversation with one of those friends ⁓ not too long ago and I was telling about some hard things I was going through and he goes, Why didn't you call me? I was like, dude, I didn't I don't know what you could have done and he very bluntly said, If you don't think I will be there for you in four hours, then I'm doing something wrong as a friend. And that really took me back of how much do I trust myself to let him be that support for me? And ⁓ Yeah. It it's just really touching when you know you've got those people and then also when you get to be those people. You're talking about the ⁓ the tribe in Africa and how important it is 'cause like you said, there is that sweet spot between a a ⁓ father and a son. And also just as teenage boys are moving into manhood where they are trying to come to grasp with the hormonal change, the testosterone drop. ⁓ I remember I had some very powerful ⁓ gentlemen in my lives at that time that ⁓ one instance in particular and I kinda laugh about it now, but it was very life-changing at the moment where ⁓ I was just ha freaking out. I don't know what was going on. I was probably having some sort of panic or anxiety attack, and my older sister, ⁓ she came up to me and she's like, What's going on? And I shoved her, and this was probably like the first time that I realized I had gotten a lot stronger than I was when I was younger. And I shoved her pretty good. Well, my parents were out of town, ⁓ they were on a a vacation or a trip somewhere. And so and then I went and did what you did. I went and isolated in my room. And these two gentlemen that ⁓ my wife called, ⁓ or excuse me, my sister, not my wife at the time. They came in and they sat down with me and they're like, What's going on, dude? What's up? What are you feeling? And then they expressed that like, okay, you don't get to fight back and or, you know, even just push your sister back. You are stronger than her now. You are bigger than her now. And they really helped guide me back onto the path of of being a man and being a a responsible and respectful man. And I I do think like you do that that's something we are lacking so much in our society today. ⁓ and and sadly social media, ⁓ which I mean we're talking on this medium right now, that's a form of it. It's what allowed you and I to connect. But it's also creates that because we see people getting away with the disrespect. We see people getting away without the consequences that We were once held to in s one form or another. And ⁓ it's what's really it's what's the struggle is out there, ⁓ that I think is doing that. You talked about the lessons you learned when you were sitting with that nine seven nine group in the state pen and they have some I know even in Utah where I came from, there's some powerful groups in there and You see some really hardened people who have done a lot of bad and ⁓ y you look at it and you can see a lot of them still didn't have the leadership in their in their lives to guide them on the right path and they take the wrong path. ⁓ and you mentioned ⁓ I thought it was really interesting. I'm gonna divert, but I'm gonna g try to get back to that. You mentioned it's okay to have ⁓ some fear in your father. And I think that's such an interesting thing 'cause when my when my son w son was a young man, we were clashing 'cause that's what fathers and sons do. He needs to prove that he's he's big and strong and and a silver back himself. But one thing I will say, whenever he got himself into trouble one way or another, he knew he could call me and he knew that I would help and be there and and take care of it. ⁓ And some of those calls came at hours where I was dead asleep trying to figure out what the hell he was talking about. But having that respect and and that that acceptance. And so as I shift back to the nine seven nine group, you were talking about that ⁓ seeing these hardened men open up. What was your biggest takeaway from that, watching them ter share their stories and what they were going through? Daniel: ⁓ yes. very impactful. But I will I will tell you that number one, your son is very fortunate to have you. ⁓ because the fact that he's willing to make a hard call and wake you up in the middle of the night when he's in trouble tells me everything that you establish trust with him and that You were not gonna go off on him and punish and berate that there was going to be consequences, but it was still safe to call you. And I wouldn't know what that's like, honestly. ⁓ I stopped talking to my father when I was five years old. I just avoided him. So very, very much so. BigMike: That's sad. Do you have a relationship with them now or I'm sorry to hear that. Daniel: No, he's passed, but yeah, I they retired to Tucson. So I would go and see them and stay with them. And it was ⁓ they were in later in their years, and I it was my way of saying goodbye to both of them and making peace with the fact that I didn't get what I needed from them. They did their best, granted, but it ⁓ it fell short. So and these two guys coming to your house. powerful. ⁓ You know, there's There's so much to having especially male influence like that that are communicative and can explore these difficult issues because a a a 13-year-old kid trying to open up to older men, that's tricky. And they have to the kid has to have trust that these are these guys aren't going to ⁓ Punish him for whatever he's done, in this case, shoving your sister, that they could allow you to talk it through. So these are formative events and ⁓ you know, not to not to be glossed over. So I just wanted to speak to it and then the Babemba tribe, I mean these this tribe, there was this one guy in particular. So I went in February and then I went back for their graduation in July. February, they divided us up. That was this was my first time there. They divided us up into groups of like five. And so ⁓ I listened to this one guy talk about you know, he had no parents and the gang became his family. And then this other Hispanic young guy was talking about murdering this guy because he had disrespected him over a drug deal. and his story was brutal. The whole time. He was talking, he had his head down, he was staring at the floor, he couldn't make eye contact. He was so imploded and ashamed really of who he was in that moment when he took a life and was now paying the price for it. So, you know, he was quiet and halting in his in his speech. And so between February and the time I went back in July, apparently the group had nominated him to speak for the group of the graduation. And I didn't know this at the time. So I showed up and he walks to the podium in front of friends and family and all these inmates, these 35 guys. And he gets it's like that he's a different person. Between February and July, he somehow in this group came out of a shell and became this empowered ⁓ formidable presence and spoke with clarity and force. And I was blown away, honestly. I I was like, it's not, it can't be the same guy. So I of course found him later on after and I just told him I said, I gotta tell you, I am so impressed with this turnaround. so I I'm thinking of these guys' lives, you know, they have this incredible day. And then it it's over and they gotta go back to their cell, back into the population. I mean, there's very few guys that go through the program, so they're far outnumbered by the other angry, volatile, still gang-related, gang-engaged pot prison population, and guys that are giving them a hard time about going to group and So I'm thinking, man, you gotta be some kind of mentally tough individual to hold on to your values when the entire population is trying to take that away from them because they don't want to see someone grow and advance and become empowered. And so I, you know, I had great respect for the work that got these guys were doing. After these terrible deeds that they had done. BigMike: Well that was one thing I saw in my career. ⁓ you'd see people that were ordered or sentenced to go to different programs like that that we that were available to And ⁓ you know, we had ⁓ in-house treatment programs and stuff like that. And it was interesting to watch because y you'd see the same person go through the same program a few times. And when they're not in program, all they're in the housing unit, all they're doing is talking about the glory days of getting high and hanging out with their buddies and the stupid stuff they did when they got high. And you can tell they're just going through it because that's what they're expected to do, that's how they're gonna get it out of jail sooner. But then once they make that mental transition, like, ⁓ I've gotta get something out of this and that's when you see them quit hanging out, doing those laps around the the day room with their friends, talking about getting high. That's when they're studying more, maybe ⁓ getting more into the religious aspect of of You know, 'cause it was a very religious community, Utah County, ⁓ one of the centers of the Mormon church and stuff. And you would see them make those transitions to I can't be that person anymore. And that's part of what you have to do when you make those changes. It's part of what you had to do when you went through the program with your mentor is, okay, I can't be the person I've been trying to be all this time. So now it's time for me to shed that, open up and sound kind of ⁓ lofty here or something, let that light in and and let that change occur within me so I can grow as a person so I could ⁓ connect better and be more relatable. Let me ask you so you've taken the you've seen these lessons. You went through that program with your mentor and I don't know if you guys still communicate and talk and stuff like that. But what lessons in those have you taken as you've grown out of that as you've gained a better understanding who you are and what kind of lessons have you taken out of of those ⁓ meetings and relationships. Daniel: Big question and far-reaching. So I always talk first about ⁓ personal accountability because I think that it's a cornerstone of ⁓ you know, good people who are not defended and offended people are tough to be in relationship with because there's no way in. And so that was me in a lot of ways. So when I could lay that down, it was a it was a a great day, a liberating time for me to say, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be that argumentative, Defiant. It's just, it does not serve me. And so once I began to embrace that, it became ⁓ who I was and liberating and ⁓ just so far-reaching. So I start there and I always say I think that it would be a better world if. People were not so trying to cover up their insecurities and and take responsibilities for you know being late and ⁓ saying that snarky thing and saying you know I was just kidding and and and you know it's there's ⁓ there's great power in being a vulnerable adult who's who's ⁓ takes responsibility for for their actions. So that's a ⁓ that's a place I always start. And, you know, service is such a huge thing, you know, to to be a friend, this story you told about your buddy, you know, resonates with me to such a degree because I I never had anyone who was going to show up for me. ⁓ And the fact that he said, look, you know, ⁓ I don't know who you think I am, but I am your friend, and I'm disappointed that you didn't call me. That is a very powerful thing. And we all need people like that in our lives. It ⁓ they mirror back to us our best selves. And you know, I I tried to do this life alone for so many years. I I didn't like it. I wanted people in my life, but I never found them. And so to find those people that, you know, celebrate who we are, you know, and love that authentic part of who we are, that self is ⁓ is is a great way to go through life. Because there's no substitute for that. ⁓ if it's a partner, if it's a friend, ⁓ to me it's it enriches life to such a degree that ⁓ it ha there's no There's no comparison between that and, you know accumulating things, nice cars, nice houses, ⁓ nice clothes. I mean these are all fine things. I, you know, I have an affinity for all that, but that's not gonna fulfill me in my life. BigMike: ⁓ I I gotta agree with you one hundred percent there, especially the whole thing about trying to do life alone. I think that's one of the biggest myths and lies that is perpetrated, especially on men and young men, excuse me, is that ⁓ you know that that legend of the the high plains drifter, the the lone vigilante, ⁓ that make for great movies and stories. But the reality of it is that isolated life makes for a very ⁓ sad and lonely life. that's something that I believe in that you know, we are meant to be people. And you know, one of the things I turn to, ⁓ not so much dogmatically, but I think it's one of the best ⁓ things written is that, you know, in the beginning when ⁓ as we read in Genesis, the creation of Adam, the creator says, Was man meant to be alone? And then he sends, you know, Eve and ⁓ but even not just a romantic partner, we're not meant to be alone. We strive more and if you look at anthropologically, you know, we as Homo sapiens, we as ⁓ even our the the Neanderthal branches of you know, we we knew that to survive we were going to have to do it together. We were going to have to work together. and because that's what, you know, we're a social being. And you can look at all our cr ⁓ closest ⁓ primate relatives, you know, they too are social beings. We need to ⁓ work together to be strong and to survive. But so much of us feel like, well I'll just figure it out on my own. I'll just, you know, ⁓ and and my wife and I argue about this, not argue, but now we're to a point where we kinda laugh about it where there's ⁓ a problem that we're looking at and I'm like, I'll figure it out. And she she laughs and she points it out to me, like, ⁓ you you're gonna go figure it out on your own, huh? And because she knows that I can't do that. I can't make the decisions for both of us on my own. I can't, ⁓ especially financially, she my wife is an accountant, so She's the one who knows how to make the numbers work. I just think they work. ⁓ but that's what we need. We're not meant to be alone. ⁓ so you in your life as as you've ventured into not being alone, what have you learned about yourself working more of service with friends and stuff like that, and ⁓ opening yourself up to people more in as you grow older? Daniel: absolutely. I I will say good for your wife. She's ⁓ she knows you and ⁓ what she's doing is saying, you know, you don't have to do that anymore. Let's ⁓ you and I together have a lot more brain power and creativity. so well good, you guys are a good match then, because those two energies together can you know move mountains. BigMike: Well, I have the creativity, she has the brain power, let's just be honest right there. Daniel: So now I forgot your question. ⁓ BigMike: As as you've gone from trying to isolate yourself all the time, and I'm sure that still happens at times, but being open more to people, how has that affected you personally, ⁓ professionally? How has that affected you in your life? Daniel: Yes. So there is no bigger question that you can ask me at this point in my life because the truth is right now, Mike, is that I've been in Denver four years. I'm still trying to build community. It's hard. ⁓ and I'm not much of a joiner. So I have this I have this great hope that this work that I'm doing, these books that I'm writing, and these podcasts that I'm doing, which I think are amazing because we never know who's listening, and they have such a reach and the possibility to do good. I I am so focused on building community and I always say that if I can help one person with this book that I have written, then I will achieve what I set out to do. So I am very relationship driven. And ⁓ because when they're good, it's it's an amazing thing when two people are ⁓ rowing in the same direction and ⁓ committed to communication and working through issues. ⁓ One of the things about our group in California is that we we did never let we never let unfinished business ⁓ go unfinished. We whatever was happening in the moment if we were very connected and some something blew it all up. Everything stopped and we sat and we talked through it. And if it took two hours, so be it. Because if we left it unfinished, then we would add to the pile. And this to me has always been one of the great destroyers of relationships, is all of the unfinished business between ⁓ couples, same sex, what opposite, doesn't matter. ⁓ all that unfinished business grows and grows and finally it's this mountain is what She always used to say, and then it's too big to even take on. So there's great ⁓ power in taking care of business in the moment and cleaning it up, and then we can move on and get to the good stuff. So relationships are it's it's where I find my true self because someone who's wise and knowledgeable and Experienced can mirror back to me ⁓ my trouble spots, my blind spots, ⁓ you know, and say, You're you're off, you're missing it. And here it is. I'm gonna I'm gonna hold it up for you because they want the best in me. And so when I have someone in my life that wants the best of me, and I start to trust that. And then I can feed back to them, you know, ⁓ that's an amazing thing and and ⁓ creates for an incredible life, in my opinion. BigMike: You know, that that's such an important part of our lives and who we are because ⁓ when you have someone, a friend, a spouse, ⁓ a really close friend that can look at you and say, Hey, something's off, what's going on with you? It allows you to and even though you're trying to deflect and pretend like there's nothing wrong with you, it actually forces you to open up to that person and and build that trust. And knowing that you're safe where you are with them. So I I agree and I appreciate that a lot. ⁓ because that's that's what we need in life. Daniel, is there a a certain mentor that as you've looked back on your life that was there for you and you never had the opportunity to really recognize it and give them the shout out or the or the recognition that they that they ⁓ probably deserve? Daniel: Well, yeah. This this book that I wrote, this memoir of mine called Hungry, which I'm looking for an agent and I'm looking for a publisher, trying to get this book out into the world because what I'm doing with this book is paying forward what she gave to me. And it is a tribute to Everything that I learned from her. And so she was it. ⁓ I had no other mentors. And so I like I say, I I live in gratitude because where I would be today without her, I I don't know, but it it would probably be pretty ugly because I would have no understanding of who I was. This business of self-knowledge is everything. What I've come to know for me anyway is that the more I know my my trouble spots, my blind spots, my ⁓ you know, my struggles, the these these things that, you know, cause me to isolate and pull back and start to feel sorry for myself, you know, as I come to know them so well, which I have over the past many years. Then they cease to have power over me. ⁓ and I see them, these pitfalls coming from much further away. And I can go, yeah, I I recognize what that is. You know, I've got issues with women in my life, you know, giving away my power to women. And I can, you know, I'm out in the dating world, so I can see that coming much further away and go, yeah, I'm not going there. Because I'm gonna pay a price for that. And you know, so without her walking with me on this path, I would never have seen all of this. And so as a long answer to your question, she's it. BigMike: No, I long answers are are very acceptable and appreciated here on the mentor session, so I appreciate that. ⁓ I hope to keep in touch and I'm sure we will so we can ⁓ know when the book ⁓ finally gets released so we can let our audience know. ⁓ we appreciate your time coming out and sharing what you've been through. ⁓ do you have any other messages or lessons you'd like to pass on to the to the audience today? Daniel: ⁓ find that person and ⁓ and read. Read read the the s the wise people that talk about family and relationships, John Bradshaw's one. ⁓ because ⁓ it's very easy to s remain enmeshed in family. ⁓ we can still love them and have relationships with them, but I gotta know where I fit in there and ⁓ how reactionary I can be to. find that person and read. Read read the the s the wise people that talk about family and relationships, John Bradshaw's one. because it's very easy to s remain enmeshed in family. we can still love them and have relationships with them, but I gotta know where I fit in there and how reactionary I can be to. to family even to this day. So I gotta be proactive. I gotta be my own advocate in my life. I gotta find that person, that that wise tribal elder. otherwise I'm gonna live an unexamined life. And that to me is a shame. to family even to this day. So ⁓ I gotta be proactive. I gotta be my own advocate in my life. I gotta find that person, that ⁓ that wise tribal elder. ⁓ otherwise I'm gonna live an unexamined life. And that to me is a shame. BigMike: Well, one hundred percent. And not only find that wise tribal elder, but also be that wise tribal elder for those that are coming up behind us. So that's important too. That's important too. Daniel: Absolutely. Amen to that. Yes. Be that for others. BigMike: Daniel, I appreciate your time today on the mentor sessions. ⁓ everything you shared, great stuff, great stuff, great time. ⁓ so thanks for coming on. Daniel: Thank you for having me, Mike. You're doing great work. BigMike: Thank you, sir.