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Does Lansing Michigan Have A River Trail Serial Killer? · Murder Files Unsealed

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You know, usually when we talk about a public park
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: or like a nature trail, there is this expectation of
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: just total tranquility.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Right, absolutely.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: You lace up your sneakers, you grab your dog, and
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: the sun is shining through the canopy of the trees.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: The paved path just, you know, stretches out in front
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: of you.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: It's a very peaceful image.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It's a predictable safe space. But then you
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: step into the reality of what happens when the sun
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: goes down. Suddenly that familiar paved pathway really changes.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: It changes drastically.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: The geography itself shifts from this community recreation hub to
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: just a complete blind spot, a place where the city
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: essentially stops looking.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: And that contrast between a trail by day and a
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: trail by night, it's staggering. It is entirely central to
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: what is unfolding right now.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Which is exactly what we're getting into today. Welcome to
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: this deep dive, everyone. Today, our mission is to cut
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: through the noise and look at a really chilling, rapidly
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: developing situation out of Lansing, Michigan.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very intense situation.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: We are looking at reporting from the National News Desk,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: dated October 2nd, 2026. Over the past 11 months, five
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: men have been found dead or fatally injured along the
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Lansing River Trail.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: Five men in less than a year. Right.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: And right now, the community is just entirely on edge.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: They're asking this terrifying question, which is, is there a
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: serial killer on the loose?
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Which is the question everyone goes to immediately.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: So.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: OK, let's unpack this, because our goal today isn't to
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: lean into the, you know, the fictional thriller aspects of this.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: No, we really need to avoid sensationalizing it.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we are going to carefully analyze the facts we
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: have from the recent news reports and the details released
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: in the Lansing police press conferences, because the reality of
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: active police investigations is just far more complex.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: And often far slower than what we see on television, honestly.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Way slower. So, I mean, where do we even begin
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: with this?
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I think what's fascinating here is how the specific
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: language used by law enforcement provides us with actual clues.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: It shows us where this investigation actually stands versus, you know,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: where the public fear is currently residing.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Right. Because public fear can definitely outpace the facts.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: It almost always does. So we have to look at
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: exactly what is known, what is still pending forensic analysis,
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: and the unique vulnerabilities of the victims involved here.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: I want to start by looking at the parameters of
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: this timeline. We are looking at five deaths that have
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: occurred specifically along the Lansing River Trail over an 11-month period.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: 11 months.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Now, 11 months is nearly a whole year. And the
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: first thing that jumps out to me is just the
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: timeline itself. I mean, if there are bodies being found
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: in the same general geographic area, why wasn't the alarm
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: sounded at month three or month six?
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: That's the logical question to ask.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Right. Like, why did it take nearly a year for
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: this to reach a boiling point with the public?
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: To understand that delay, we have to look at the
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: reality of isolated incidents in expansive outdoor public spaces. When
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: we hear, you know, five deaths in 11 months, our
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: brains instantly group them together.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Because they're presented to us in a list.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Exactly. We're looking at the data retroactively. We have the
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: benefit of hindsight. But in real time, investigations just don't
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: always look like a clear pattern.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: They're just individual files on a desk.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Yes. And an outdoor space like a river trail is massive.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: It is subject to the elements. And unfortunately, it is
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: a space where isolated tragedies, medical emergencies, overdoses, accidents, they
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: do happen with a pretty heartbreaking frequency.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: It's like looking at a pointillism painting, right? But you're
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: looking at it with a magnifying glass.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: Up close, in months one through six, the police are
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: just seeing isolated dots of paint on the canvas. A
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: tragic incident here, an unexplained death there.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: Just one dot at a time.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: It's only when they step back after 11 months that
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: the bucket basically overflows and the individual dots actually form
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: a terrifying picture.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: A pattern becomes impossible to ignore once you reach that
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: critical mass of data.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: But I do have to push back a little on
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: this because I think a lot of people listening are
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: probably wondering the same thing.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: Sure. What's the hang up?
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: If it is the same trail over 11 months, wouldn't
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: investigators start connecting those dots at death number two or three?
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: I mean... It is a very specific localized geographic feature.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: It is a specific feature, yes. But we have to
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: consider the dual purpose of a location like the Lansing
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: River Trail.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, the dual purpose.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: By day, it is exactly what you described earlier. It's
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: a recreational pathway. People biking, jogging, walking dogs. But by night,
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: these trails serve a completely different function.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: They become a shelter.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Right. They become necessary places. hidden shelters for people who
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: literally have nowhere else to go. The unhoused population frequently
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: utilizes these areas because they're out of the direct sight
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: line of businesses and residential neighborhoods.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: They're trying to stay out of the way.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: Exactly. So when police find a deceased individual in a
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: space like that, their initial baseline assumption isn't necessarily a
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: serial predator.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Their baseline is probably much more mundane, tragically.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: Sadly, yes. Their initial baseline is often environmental exposure, underlying
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: health conditions, or accidents. Those are statistically much more common.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: So the environment itself is hostile.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: When you are dealing with expansive outdoor areas, you are
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: dealing with nature, with weather.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: And weather is a huge factor here. I imagine that
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: makes investigating these scenes incredibly difficult from a purely physical standpoint, right?
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Incredibly difficult. Think about the changing seasons in Michigan over
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: an 11-month span. Oh, wow.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Michigan weather is completely all over the place.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Right. You are dealing with rain washing away potential trace evidence.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: You are dealing with snow, freezing temperatures, thaw cycles, animal activity,
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: and just natural decomposition.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: So the scene is actively degrading from minute one. Yes.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: The elements actively work against crime scene preservation. If a
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: victim isn't found immediately, the environment severely compromises the evidence.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Let's say case number one happens in the dead of winter, right?
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: And case number two happens in the spring thaw.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: They wouldn't even look like the same type of scene.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Exactly. The condition of those scenes and the condition of
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: the remains might look so drastically different that any physical
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: link is totally obscured. That delay in connecting the dots
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: is a direct result of the geographic and environmental realities
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: of an outdoor urban trail.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: The landscape itself is almost acting as a cloak for
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: what's actually happening.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: It really is.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: And to really understand why those dots weren't connected immediately,
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: we need to look closely at who the victims were
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: and the specific circumstances of their deaths.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: The victimology is crucial here.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: The authorities have released some core information from their investigation.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: All five victims were believed to be homeless men. All
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: of them were white, and there was a massive age
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: range here.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Very massive.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, spanning from 22 years old all the way up
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: to 70 years old. Furthermore, Police Chief Rob Backus stated
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: that investigators believe the injuries in several cases occurred overnight.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: or in the, quote, early morning hours.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: So under the cover of darkness. Right.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: And they specifically noted that the victims were attacked while
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: lying down or sleeping. And the injuries included blunt force trauma.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: If we connect this to the bigger picture, the profile
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: of the victims here is incredibly telling. Let's look at
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: that age range first, 22 to 70.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: That's a massive gap. Right.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: In criminal profiling, when you see a predator targeting a
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: specific demographic, it's often narrowed down by age, physical appearance,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: or a specific risk profile.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: Like targeting college students or targeting the elderly.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Exactly. But here, the gap between a 22-year-old and a
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: 70-year-old is essentially a lifetime. This strongly suggests that the
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: perpetrator is not targeting an age demographic at all.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: So what are they targeting?
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: They are targeting a circumstance.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: A circumstance. The circumstance being extreme vulnerability, because the shared
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: characteristic isn't their age, it is their lack of shelter.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: Precisely. The fact that all five were unhoused men means
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: they were existing in a state of perpetual vulnerability.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't have locked doors.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: They don't have security systems or even neighbors they can
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: call out to through a wall. They are relying on
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: the darkness and isolation of the trail for protection.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Which tragically makes them highly accessible to someone hunting in
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: that very same darkness.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: It's a terrible irony.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: The police specifically noted they were attacked while they were
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: asleep or lying down, and that blunt force trauma was involved.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: Which is a very specific type of violence.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Right, because as a layman, that feels very different to
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: me than, say, a shooting from across a street or
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: a quick parking lot mugging. Does the specific choice of
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: weapon and the timing of the attack tell investigators something
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: specific about the killer's psychology?
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, it tells them an immense amount. Striking a sleeping
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: victim is a methodology that ensures absolute control.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Control over the situation. Yes.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: When a victim is asleep, The attacker dictates the entire interaction.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: They are actively avoiding a confrontation.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: Because if the person is awake, they might fight back.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: Right. They are striking when the victims have absolutely zero
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: chance to defend themselves, to run or to cry out.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: And when we pair that with the specific mention of
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: blunt force trauma, the psychological picture becomes even more complex.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Because swinging a weapon, like a pipe, a rock, a
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: heavy branch, that requires serious physical exertion.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: It does. It's not a passive act.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: And it requires proximity. Yeah. You have to be right
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: on top of the person to inflict that kind of damage. Yes.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: Blunt force trauma is intimate in the most gruesome sense
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: of the word. Intimate.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: That's a chilling word for it.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: But it's true. It's not like a firearm where there
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: is physical and psychological distance between the shooter and the victim.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: It requires the perpetrator to physically feel the impact of
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: their actions.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Right. They have to put their own force into it.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: It is an incredibly violent, angry, and physically demanding method
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: of attack. It is messy, it is loud, and it
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: is highly risky.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: But if the victim is asleep, that risk is heavily mitigated.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Exactly. The attacker gets the psychological payoff of the intimate
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: violence without the risk of a fair fight.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: Here's where it gets really interesting to me looking at
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: these reports. We know they are all unhoused and we
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: have this wide age range. But the police also noted
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: that all five men were white.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, that was specified.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: When you look at that shared racial profile combined with
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: the housing status and the specific location of the river trail...
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: What does that tell investigators about the killer's potential geographic
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: comfort zone?
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: Well, the racial profile and socioeconomic status could indicate a
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: few things. First, it might simply reflect the demographics of
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: the unhoused population that specifically frequents that stretch of the
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: Lansing River Trail.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Right, just who happens to be there.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: Because criminals often operate out of convenience and opportunity. If
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: this is their hunting ground, they will target whoever is
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: available within it.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: But what about geographically?
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: Geographically, it tells police that the killer is extremely comfortable
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: navigating the river trail at night.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: That makes sense.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: You don't walk into a pitch black wooded urban trail
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: and commit a physically demanding murder without knowing your escape routes.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: You need to know where the blind spots are and
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: know how to move without being seen.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: So they aren't just stumbling in there randomly.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Highly unlikely. This is likely someone who lives nearby, works nearby,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: or has just spent significant time in that specific environment.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: So they know the terrain as well as the people
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: seeking shelter there.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Sometimes even better.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: But while the police have noted this pattern of blunt
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: force trauma, the actual official classification of these deaths reveals
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: a massive hurdle in the investigation.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: This is where the science gets complicated.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: Let's look at the numbers released. Of the five cases,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: three are officially classified as homicides.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, three homicides.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: One has an undetermined cause of death. And one is
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: still awaiting a medical examiner's finding. But Chief Backus also
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: said they are waiting on findings in, quote, at least
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: two deaths. Right. So essentially, we have three confirmed murders
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: and two that are in forensic limbo. How exactly does
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: a medical examiner differentiate between a post-mortem injury, like, say,
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: a body falling down a rocky ravine, versus a blunt
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: force strike from a weapon?
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: It is an incredibly meticulous and often frustratingly slow science.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Frustrating for the public, especially.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: And for the police. In forensic pathology, there are generally
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: five manners of death. Natural, accident, suicide, homicide, and undetermined. Okay. Now,
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: a death is just the biological fact that someone has
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: ceased living. A homicide is a specific legal and medical
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: ruling that another human being caused that death. Right.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Those are very different things legally.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: When a body is found outdoors, particularly one that has
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: been exposed to the elements, differentiating an accident from an
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: attack is paramount.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: But if a guy has a cracked skull, isn't it
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: obvious someone hit him? Why would it be marked as undetermined?
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: It seems obvious from the outside, but let's break down
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: the mechanics of the trauma. The medical examiner has to
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: look at the fracture patterns on the bone itself.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Like the shape of the break?
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Exactly. A depressed skull fracture, where the bone is pushed
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: inward in a specific shape, might strongly indicate a weapon
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: like a hammer or a pipe.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Because it matches the shape of the tool.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Right. But a linear fracture, just a straight crack along
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: the skull, is often consistent with a fall from a
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: standing height onto a broad, flat surface.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Like hitting your head on the paved trail.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Or a large rock. If a victim is found at
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: the bottom of a steep embankment with severe head trauma...
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: the pathologist has to scientifically prove that the trauma was
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: inflicted by a person and not by gravity pulling them
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: down a rocky hill. Oh, wow.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: And I imagine the weather and the timeline make proving
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: that even harder.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. If a body has been exposed to Michigan weather
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: for weeks or months, the soft tissue damage that might
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: indicate a defensive wound on the arms or the specific
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: bruising pattern of a weapon might be completely gone.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Just erased by the elements.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Erased by decomposition or animal scavenging or heavy rains. Unhoused
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: populations also often suffer from a lack of regular medical care, malnutrition,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: or substance use issues, which complicates the autopsy even further.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: There are just so many variables.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: Too many variables. The medical examiner has to prove, beyond
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: a scientific doubt, the mechanism of death. If they cannot
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: definitively prove it was another person, they are ethically and
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: legally bound to rule it undetermined.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: I hear that, but I feel like we live in
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: an era of rapid technology.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: We do, but forensics is a different beast.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Well, we have advanced toxicology, 3D scanning, DNA sequencing. Why
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: does the public have to wait so long for a
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: medical examiner's finding? It feels like we shouldn't have cases
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: sitting in limbo for months while a potential serial killer
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: is out there.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: The frustration is completely understandable, and the community has every
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: right to be anxious. But the reality of the forensic
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: system is one of immense bottlenecks.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Bottlenecks in the labs.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Yes. Forensic labs across the country are chronically underfunded and understaffed.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: They're processing not just these cases from the trail, but
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: every single drug overdose, suspicious death and fatal accident in
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: the county.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: So they're just completely backed up.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Always. Toxicology alone can take months because they aren't just
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: running one simple test. They're running panels for hundreds of
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: different substances to rule out an overdose or even an
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: interaction that could have caused a fatal fall.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: So it's a massive waiting game for everyone involved.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: It is. And more importantly, getting it right is legally
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: much more critical than getting it fast.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Explain that a little more.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Imagine the medical examiner rushes. They assume a linear fracture
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: is a homicide without definitive proof, and police arrest a suspect.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: A good defense attorney will tear that autopsy apart in court.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Because the science wasn't solid.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: Exactly. They will bring in their own experts to introduce
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: reasonable doubt. arguing it was a tragic slip and fall
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: in the dark. And then the suspect walks free.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: And double jeopardy attacks us so they can't be tried again.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Right. Or conversely, if they rush and label it an accident,
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: police stop investigating, resources are pulled, and a serial killer
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: is allowed to keep hunting because everyone thinks it was
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: a fall. Wow.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: So a rushed, undetermined, or incorrect ruling could completely derail
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: the entire investigation.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: It could destroy it. They have to wait for every
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: single microscopic slide of tissue, every toxicology panel, to come
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: back before making a ruling. Because that ruling has the
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: power to take away someone's freedom or close a murder
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: case forever.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: That makes the stakes so much higher than just getting
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: an answer for the evening news.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Infinitely higher.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: They are moving as fast as the science and the
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: law allow, even though the public clock is ticking loudly.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: But you mentioned earlier that one of these five cases
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: actually broke through that forensic bottleneck, right? Yes.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: There is one case that stands out in the reporting.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: According to the reports, a 23-year-old man named Edward Joseph
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Smith was charged with open murder in the August death
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: of a man named Daniel Lusk. Right. But the police
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: also noted that no other suspects have been publicly identified
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: for the other four cases.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: And this is where the investigation hits a really fascinating
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: and highly complicating anomaly.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: So let's look at this specific case. It happened in August,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: which puts it squarely within the 11-month window we're talking about.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: It's the timeline perfectly.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: It happened on or near the river trail. The victim
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: fits the profile. But there is a massive glaring difference here,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: which the reporting points out. Daniel Lusk was stabbed.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Stabbed, yes.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Chief Backus specifically highlighted blunt force trauma as the
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: pattern in the other cases. As we discussed, swinging a
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: pipe is one thing. Stabbing is a completely different mechanism
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: of injury.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Very different.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: What does that drastic shift in the MO, the modus operandi,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: tell investigators?
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: It tells them to pump the brakes on assuming a
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: single narrative.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: To not jump to the conclusion that it's all one guy. Right.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: While both stabbing and blunt force trauma are intimate, up-close
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: methods of attack, they require different weapons, different physical motions,
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: and often point to entirely different psychological states. Okay, how so?
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: A blunt force attack, especially on a sleeping victim, is
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: often about brute strength and crushing power. It's sometimes linked
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: to a desire to obliterate the victim's identity.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Just total destruction. Yes.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: A stabbing, on the other hand, is often more frenzied.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: It's sometimes related to crimes of passion, a sudden altercation,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: or a specific need to puncture and penetrate.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: It feels more chaotic.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: It often is. For a serial offender to change their
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: MO so drastically from blunt force to a blade is unusual.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: It's not unheard of, though, right?
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: It happens, sure. But it is a massive red flag
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: for investigators that they might be looking at different actors entirely.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Before we get into the theories on that, the phrasing
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: of the charge really caught my eye. Edward Joseph Smith
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: was charged with open murder.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, open murder.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: If someone is watching their local evening news, they might
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: hear that and wonder what it means. Is open murder
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: different from first degree or second degree murder?
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: It's a very specific legal mechanism. It's prominently used in
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: states like Michigan, actually.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, so it's a state-specific mechanism?
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: Thing? Mostly, yes. It's important to understand because it sounds
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: vague to the public, but it's actually highly strategic for
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: the prosecution.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: How does it work?
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: When a prosecutor charges someone with open murder, they are
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: essentially saying, we have enough preliminary evidence to prove this
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: person committed a criminal homicide. But we are not yet
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: going to lock ourselves into a specific degree.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Why wouldn't they just charge first degree if they think
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: he did it? Doesn't that look tougher?
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: It's not about looking tough. It's about the timeline of
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: the justice system. When someone is arrested, they have a
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: constitutional right to a speedy arraignment.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: So the clock starts ticking immediately.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: Exactly. The police and prosecutors might have enough evidence, say
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: a witness or a weapon, to know Smith killed Lusk.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: But they might not yet have all the digital forensics,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: the cell phone data or the deep background investigation to
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: prove premeditation.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: And premeditation is required for first-degree murder.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Exactly. The open murder charge allows the legal process to begin.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: The suspect is arraigned and held, ensuring public safety. But
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: it gives the prosecution the vital time they need to
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: let the evidence fully unfold before trial.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: So it's basically a placeholder.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: Sort of. Later, at a preliminary hearing or at trial,
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: The judge or jury will look at the totality of
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: the evidence and decide if it supports first-degree premeditated murder,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: secondary murder, or manslaughter. It is a strategic holding pattern.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: That's really clever, honestly. So they have Smith for the
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: August stabbing of Lusk, and they are buying time to
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: build that specific case. Right. But they haven't publicly linked
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: him to the other four cases. Based on what we
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: are seeing, we are essentially looking at three working theories
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: for how Smith fits into the broader picture of the
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: trail deaths, right?
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Exactly. The detectives in Lansing are likely agonizing over three
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: distinct possibilities right now.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: What's theory one?
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: Theory one is the copycat, or the crime of opportunity.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: Smith has an altercation with Lusk, stabs him, and leaves
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: him on the trail. Maybe he knew the area was
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: already known for bodies and thought it would provide cover.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Using the rumor of a serial killer to hide his
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: own crime.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Right. Or maybe it was just a localized dispute that
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: escalated fatally in a place where people already gather.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: So in that scenario, he's just a one-off killer. Theory
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: two being that Smith actually is the guy for all
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: of them. Right.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Theory two is that Smith is responsible for all five.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Even with the weapon change?
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, because serial killers do sometimes evolve their M.O. Maybe
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: he lost his blunt instrument, or maybe a sleeping victim
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: woke up and startled him, leading to a more frenzied
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: knife attack.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: So if that's the working theory, what are the police
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: doing right now?
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: If that's the theory, police are combing through his background,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: pulling his cell phone location data for the past 11 months,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: and trying to place him at the scene of the
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: other four deaths.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: But they haven't charged him yet with the others.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Which strongly suggests they lack the physical evidence to make
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: that leap. They aren't going to charge him just to
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: close the books. They need the science to back it up.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: And the third theory, which honestly feels the most terrifying
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: to me, is that they are completely unrelated.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: Yes. Theory three is the statistical nightmare.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: That there's more than one killer out there.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: That the Lansing River Trail has simply become an environment
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: so devoid of protection and the population living there is
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: so profoundly vulnerable that multiple different unrelated people have committed
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: murders there over the span of 11 months.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: That just speaks to a massive systemic vulnerability.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: It does. It's a societal failure. And the police are
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: being highly cautious here by explicitly stating they haven't identified
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: suspects in the other cases. They are refusing to assume
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: one man did it all just because it would tie
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: a neat bow on the investigation.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: They can't just close the file to make people feel better. No.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: They have to follow the evidence, even if it leads
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: to a messier, more complex reality of multiple offenders operating
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: in the same blind spot.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Which brings us to the most public-facing aspect of this
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: entire tragedy. We have this intense uncertainty, this messy reality
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: of forensics and legal charges.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: It's a lot to manage.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: And it dictates exactly how the police are communicating with
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: a terrified public. We have Lansing Police Chief Rob Backus
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: holding a news conference to address the community's fears.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: And press conferences like that are intensely scrutinized. Right.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: And his words are chosen with surgical precision. He said, quote,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: that these may be related cases.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: So careful.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: He also added that their mandate is that, quote, someone
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: be brought to justice.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: When we look at a statement like that, we have
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: to perform a semantic analysis. Because in law enforcement press conferences,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: what is omitted is often just as important as what
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: is spoken.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: So look at what he didn't say.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Look at what he did not say. He acknowledged
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: the public's question about a serial killer, but he adamantly
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: refused to validate the premise.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: He didn't say the word serial killer in the affirmative. Right.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: He said they are looking into the possibility that they
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: are related.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: It's not so much walking a tightrope. It's more like
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: a controlled burn. The chief has to release just enough
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: information to burn away the dangerous rumors and keep the
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: public alert.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: But not too much.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Right. Because if he lets out too much, the fire
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: jumps the line and destroys the investigation. If he leans
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: too far one way and says, yes, we definitively have
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: a serial killer, people just panic.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: Mass panic is a very real threat.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: You get vigilante groups forming, the tip lines get flooded
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: with thousands of false sightings that drown out real evidence,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: and the community basically goes into lockdown.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: And if he leans too far the other way and says,
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: these are all unrelated accidents, and it turns out it
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: actually is a serial killer, he loses all public trust
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: and potentially costs more lives.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Because people let their guard down.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Law enforcement agencies have to constantly balance the need
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: to warn a vulnerable population against jeopardizing the ongoing investigation.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Think about the unhoused population on that trail.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: They are the ones actually in danger.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Right. They desperately need to know that there is an
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: elevated threat so they can try to pair up, find
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: alternative shelter, or stay hypervigilant at night.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: But the police can't give them all the details of
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: what to look out for.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: No, because of what we call holdback evidence.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Holdback evidence? What is that exactly?
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: If the police release too much specific information, say the
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: exact type of blunt instrument used, or the specific positioning
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: of the bodies, or a unique item taken from the victims.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Details only the killer would know.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Exactly. If they release that, they ruin their ability to
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: interrogate suspects.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Because if a suspect knows a detail from the news,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: it loses its value as a confession tool?
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: It becomes useless. If a suspect is in the interrogation
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: room and confesses, mentioning a highly specific detail that only
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: the killer and the police know. That is a golden
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: ticket for a conviction.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: It proves they were there.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: But if the police broadcast that detail on the evening news,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: a false confessor seeking attention can claim it, or even
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: more likely, a defense attorney can easily argue that their
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: client didn't commit the murder. They just read about the
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: weapon in the local paper.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: So the police have to protect the integrity of the information.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: So they speak in these carefully constructed... Almost vague statements.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: It's a very deliberate vagueness.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: I also noticed the phrasing at the very end of
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: his statement. He said their mandate is that someone be
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: brought to justice. The word someone is singular.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Singular, yes. It's a fascinating choice of words.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Why do you think he chose that?
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Well, especially right after discussing the possibility of related cases.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: And while currently holding one suspect, Edward Joseph Smith, for
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: one specific crime, it projects a unified focus.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: A single target for the justice system. Yes.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Even though the reality behind the scenes is that they
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: might be hunting an unknown phantom for the blunt force
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: traumas while simultaneously prosecuting Smith for the stabbing.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: So it's a rhetoric of control in a deeply uncontrollable situation.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: It's meant to project authority and assurance.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: It really highlights how a press conference isn't just about
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: giving information to the public. It's an active, strategic move
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: in the investigation itself.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. The killer or killers might be watching that broadcast.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: The chief knows that.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Of course he does. He is speaking to the community
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: to calm them, but he is also speaking directly to
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: the perpetrator. He's letting them know the net is tightening
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: without revealing exactly where the holes in the net are.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: It is a high-stakes communication strategy.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: They are managing public fear, protecting forensic integrity, and applying
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: psychological pressure to a suspect all in a 30-second soundbite.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: It requires an incredible amount of discipline from everyone in
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: the department.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: So let's synthesize what we've uncovered here from these reports.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: We started with a geography that transforms from a recreational
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: haven by day into a dark, vulnerable shelter by night.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: The Lansing River Trail.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Over an 11-month period, five highly vulnerable unhoused men met
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: violent or mysterious ends while sleeping or resting along this
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: single trail.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: A horrifying reality for that community.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: We examine the massive forensic backlog that highlights the agonizing
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: wait for scientific certainty. That leaves us with three confirmed homicides,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: one undetermined death, and another still pending.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: With the medical examiners working as fast as the science allows.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: We looked at the anomaly of Edward Joseph Smith, charged
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: with an open murder via a stabbing, which stands in
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: stark contrast. against the pattern of blunt force trauma seen
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: in the other attacks.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: And overseeing all of this, we have a police department
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: executing a highly calculated media strategy. They're investigating the terrifying
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: possibility of a serial link while trying to manage public
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: fear and protect the integrity of their case.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: It is a profoundly complex situation. It defies the easy,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: wrapped-up-in-an-hour answers we usually look for in narratives about crime.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: It really does.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: It is messy. It requires immense scientific patience. And it
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: is entirely real for the community navigating that trail every
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: single day.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Which leaves us with a final thought to mull over.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Something for you to consider as you go about your day.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Something beyond just the facts of this specific case.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Exactly. We talked at the very beginning about that familiar trail.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: The park where you might walk your dog. Consider the
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: geography of your own city.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: The spaces you think you know.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: What spaces feel safe, bustling, and welcoming to you during
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: the daylight hours... but become hidden, deadly blind spots when
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: the sun goes down?
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: We all have them in our towns.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: And more importantly, how does society's collective blind spot towards
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: its most vulnerable populations essentially enable these tragic patterns to
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: remain hidden in the shadows for nearly a year before
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: the alarm is finally sounded?
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: It's a question we really need to sit with.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us on this deep dive.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: Keep questioning the world around you. Keep looking closely at
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: the spaces you inhabit. And we will see you next time.