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Interview with Stefan Lysak · The Last Analog Marketers

• speaker-0: And now, you're listening to the Last Analog Marketers Podcast. For marketers who lived through the transition to digital and the newcomers who inherited the results, using the past as a lens to understand the present and navigate the future with intention. With your hosts, Aaron Peterson and Jamie Jones. speaker-2: Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Last Analog Marketers. I'm Aaron. speaker-1: Jamie. Today's show is speaker-2: Yeah, we're gonna be exploring what marketers have gained and lost as we've moved from that analog to digital and what that future might hold as AI transforms everything that we're doing. Hi guys. Yeah, from his early days in from his early days in marketing through his time ⁓ to can't at Cantar leading marketing now at a global management firm, ⁓ Stefan lives at the intersection of data, brand and commercial strategy. speaker-0: Yeah, fun place to be these days. ⁓ lots of action. speaker-1: Awesome. Stephanie. speaker-0: Thanks, Amy. Yeah. My name's Stefan. ⁓ so I've been a marketing professional my whole career. ⁓ currently at Roland Berger working in in the Americas business. At RB we define that as ⁓ US, Canada, Mexico, and Brazil. So that's where I'm focused. ⁓ we also have a ⁓ some deep sector expertise in places ⁓ like automotive energy chemicals. The the firm has a European heritage with global headquarters in Munich. So ⁓ with that you can kind of see the overlay of the sectors and where we focus. We also have a thriving ⁓ support business for the private equity space, you know, doing transaction and investor support, so do operational due diligence, commercial due diligence, as well as you know MA like post-merger integration. So we've had a couple really strong years in terms of performance. We're growing. It's a very competitive market and management consulting these days. It's been a wonderful opportunity in my career. Before that I got a chance to collaborate with you at Cantar. I actually went out and also became a fractional CMO for a brief period of time supporting a startup just to kind of experience ⁓ what that was like. I was living in New York at the time and have now relocated my family to Boston. ⁓ so that was a giving me an opportunity to kind of spend some time. ⁓ that was a big change for those who might be thinking about leaving Manhattan and moving to the suburbs, let me tell you, it takes some time to adjust. ⁓ and prior to that I was in different marketing roles in professional services, financial services. ⁓ so ⁓ I'm still learning every day though. So I look forward to our conversation today to share some of my insights, also hear what you guys are thinking too. So let's get going. speaker-1: Yeah, lifelong learner. I love that idea. I feel the same way. And the move from New York to Boston, ⁓ Aaron has spent a lot of time in Boston. I lived in New York, so two very different cities. speaker-2: I totally get it sometimes. We have to move for our career and I've moved all over the country so I totally understand. ⁓ before speaker-1: And come. So ⁓ I'm really excited about some of the conversations. back like what made you get into marketing? I always think it's really interesting, you know, did you ⁓ speaker-0: I have a clear answer for that one. ⁓ yeah, so marketing ⁓ I I went to I w I'm I'm I'm from the Boston area originally and I went to Boston College. They have an undergraduate business program there, so you have to pick a major. I picked marketing. My father, ⁓ who immigrated from Poland, ⁓ started his own company. I he was an engineer and worked in big business for a while and then eventually started at that time I would call sort of ⁓ custom market research company, and it was really thriving in the two thousand supporting primarily high technology companies. companies, ⁓ there's an old brand, Sun Microsystems. A lot of their legacy executives now are big venture capitalists, SAP at the time. So I was just a young sort of business analyst there. ⁓ really got baptism by fire in B2B, also being on the vendor side and also, you know, looking at you know work product and handing off intelligence, ⁓ learning a lot of sectors as well. So I did that. ⁓ you know, so worked at a family business quite frankly as just a junior person and you know, you got you get these skills, right? And that's sort of I I don't know if I picked that path or that path picked me. ⁓ and then I leveraged it with my first job in New York, ⁓ with a company by the name of RSM McLaderie and really got into more of the consulting side and and then, you know, the rest of it is history from there. So to answer your question, Jamie, I kinda, you know, studied a little bit at university, found an entry level job, happened to be the family business, and then developed a passion for it, which sir it still serves me well today. You know, ⁓ some other people maybe shift careers over time or or tweak and I think ⁓ I'm still learning as I said, but you know, I've been a B2B marketing professional my whole career. Thanks. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: I like that a lot. I especially like that idea of I'm not sure if I picked it or it picked me because I also feel the same way about my marketing career. ⁓ it was not in I don't think intentional on my part the way that it ended up working out, but I also has been quite a ride. ⁓ like us, you kind of started your career in that obviously much more analog marketing world. Yeah. ⁓ what's one thing from that era from your earlier parts of your career that you think marketers have lost as we've made the transition Yeah. speaker-0: Great question. I'm gonna do a little visual the phone. Okay, so let me get my ⁓ let me ⁓ yes, yes, yes. This is the part It's really hard. ⁓ look, you know you know, my North New York experience in the covet world and the advent of teams, ⁓ and all of that stuff. Now granted technology allows speaker-2: ⁓ god, that hurts. speaker-0: example, the three of us to have this wonderful conversation today. So don't misunderstand me. But I think the concept of a phone call, especially at the senior level and hashing things out versus going back and forth on email is really a lost art. ⁓ I think sort of just the the also the one-to-one communication, so a phone being one of the channels of which you can communicate with clients and stakeholders. But ⁓ yeah, you know, ⁓ just finding out, okay, is it a Teams chat? Is it an email? Is it ⁓ whatever, Slack or are we doing phone call? I find phone call method is still like one of the best ways and then Jamie, you know, we did this in advance of our discussion today, just ⁓ you know, freestyle on things like that. That was just a refreshing moment. We were off camera, fifteen minutes to catch up, ⁓ hung up my phone and got on with my day versus, you know, ⁓ something like this, you know, I want to make sure that I'm in a quiet setting and stuff like that. So I think that not only is the phone as a mechanism a great way to just, you know, have free form conversations, it's a more relaxed way to some some extent. And it's missed in from my humble opinion to answer your question, Aaron, just the phone. speaker-1: Conversation simply. I guess on the flip side, do you think speaker-2: Yeah, I think that's a great response. speaker-0: Yeah, I think you know it's it's it technology is constantly changing and I think you made a reference to AI here and and what have you. I I think one of the things is each company culture is a little bit different. ⁓ I worked at a private credit firm, so making loans to private equity and they had a wonderful CRM installation. So I d you know, they were a power user of that. They invested in talent, ⁓ they had a senior leader who designed the tool and it really gave them a competitive ⁓ edge. So I would say that the the the CRM is sort of an analog I know it's a digital platform and what have you, but really ultimately, you know, we all remember SIBL systems and or, you know, and then Salesforce is taking it to the next level. But like where you can have a relational database with lots of client information and get insights and then you know now obviously you could probably feed the data AI and then get even more richer information. So Sort of a legacy tool, CRM where stuff is housed, you log calls, you keep track of your pipeline, you add contacts, and then bringing it forward into the future use case now, which is obviously all of this data that you have. ⁓ I've only seen a few companies do it really well. I think it's a missed opportunity. And it starts with people, you know, using the platform correctly, understanding the power of it. And CRM is like a four letter word, even though it's a three letter acronym. I think we all roll our eyes and all you know. But ⁓ and marketeers, just to finish that thought. you know, spend more time in platforms like Hubspot, Marketo, Pardot, but I think actually CRM is where the really rich information is. Not to say that the marketing automation platform doesn't have it, but it's when it can be put into the CRM the rest of the business is gonna be able to see the power of the marketing data or whatever else might be happening there. That is ⁓ a really hard one technology wise and even user now. No one wants to sit and look at a screen. ⁓ Give or take, you know, on a CRM I should say. Anyways, yeah, the the last part maybe you want to edit that out, but the I think my point is w well made there. speaker-1: that's so interesting because my initial thought was a Rolodex, like being the Sure. Terry is looking at the cards. guy likes to drink so like we don't make a business call after lunch like the original CRM being shown as a Rolodeck and I totally agree with you it's only as successful as people use It's this shared opportunity for everyone within the company to understand more about We have a lot of wives. speaker-0: So I love just that idea for sure, great explanation. No, the Rolodex is what a great brand. I think Rolodex was a company, is a company. That's as technically as kinda like Kleenex, right? And ⁓ I'm not sure new the new the new paradigm is that no one I I always ask in interview, you know, do you remember what a Rolodex is? So I'll I'll grade actually ⁓ y your answer is better than mine, Jamie, in terms of contextualizing, but the power of the two examples. speaker-1: Perfect. Transitioning a little bit. So you went from Cantar, which we mentioned is where we all met. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Insulting. Yeah. speaker-0: Well let me first preface, you know, ⁓ when I joined Cantar, it was owned by WP and you know that was a interesting experience, really great company to come join. Eventually it was sold to Bain Capital, large cap private equity, and I I watched that transition. So I had scar tissue and and was there for almost six years. So sort of the Cantar culture and the evolution, you know, had programmed me in some way. And so when I went to a a consulting firm speaker-1: P P speaker-0: ⁓ a lot of smart people ⁓ had to to some extent slow my role. My my boss even one day called me and said, you know, you're pushing too hard too fast. ⁓ and that was maybe, you know, coming from my PE world of like you gotta keep the trains running on time and accelerate to show value because at certain times, you know, there's pressures just to you know, maintain, you know, the importance of your role. ⁓ Roland Berger was a bit more measured and we've come to a nice place now where the marketing function is truly value added. But I think really I went from a product organization that was private equity backed and sort of really in the the numbers into more of a personal example of like, is this partner feeling like I'm making his life easier? Does he want to collaborate with marketing? speaker-1: Does he even speaker-0: care about marketing versus that you know Cantar was totally totally different dynamic. So unprogramming yourself from one job to the new paradigm and your new role and then figuring out, you know, in a specifically in a management consulting culture, how to interact with people, add value. And one of the things, you know, simply put is Getting on the phone with them and spending time to understand what their challenges are, what their offer is, and then figuring out where marketing can contribute. Or, you know, quite frankly, leaving them alone because they're a super successful consultant, have four clients right now, and marketing is the last thing on your mind. ⁓ and that's probably because the organization is a little smaller, it's ⁓ over a billion euros, Cantar's three X that. So anyways, I think really to summarize there, it's more of a question of you know going from a to a people organization from a product. speaker-2: It sounds like you maybe had to then reframe some of the strategies that you relied on before, what were maybe some of examples of speaker-0: that yeah. ⁓ yeah, good good good succinct question there, Aaron. So I think, you know, I went from a data led organization. You I think Cantar in its heritage is a market firm market research firm, you know, really looks to data to more of speaker-1: Good good speaker-0: ⁓ a kind of a culture where someone says well I own that relationship and at other companies it was well the business actually owns that relationship you are the point person for that individual or that client and so really figuring out that and that's where CRM came in ⁓ and you know the the way that they organize client relationships and ownership of those and things like that. So I think ultimately ⁓ my strategy had to change ⁓ Erin to be a bit more in really informed on RB's value proposition, the people who are in the market, what motivates them, and then also understand the marketing talent and the tech stack to kind of figure that out. And it took some time. It wasn't just like overnight they're like, we're so happy we've got this new joiner who's gonna ask all the right questions and ⁓ change things. They actually didn't always want to be changing, especially areas that were successful. They kind of said, Leave us alone. So it's been a journey. We've gotten the you know, the team has grown, the firm is, you know, having success in the market, but marketing is still in a place where it constantly needs to prove its value. That's probably my north. speaker-2: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I mean, I've we talked about that in one of our recent episodes as well, how one of the big transitions for marketing has been from being about, you know, having a feeling that things worked or an idea that things worked to really being focused on you've gotta prove ⁓ value. And even the expectation around that has gotten h like more the bar has been raised higher and higher, right? It's no longer just like, okay, I got impressions. Right. That if you just went back to your team were like, I got a hundred thousand impressions, they'd be like, So you know what I mean? It's not isn't it's not important anymore. Now it's it that that number has certainly become, you know, what is the dollar impact that you're having or ⁓ on the business. So Yeah, I like to speaker-0: Double click on that maybe for a half second. I am speaker-1: Sure. speaker-0: interested in hearing your point of view on like in twenty twenty six what type of you know from your previous conversations what metrics you're using. You know, when I joined the firm I basically said I don't know enough yet to to really be able to but I'll give you one KPI and that is if you give me X amount of marketing budgets I can give you you know return on that in terms of you know gross pipeline. So not not weighted pipeline, not with the you know ultimate you know ⁓ but it's basically dollars validated in the opportunity ⁓ funnel and that was Something we achieved. And that actually unlocked a lot of more calmness about you know giving more resources to marketing. ⁓ it's a very simple thing and not as easy to track because you get some you know debates on is it marketing sourced or marketing influenced? But there were things that we were able to see that were organic, net new clients. I would then say, you know, then we were able to do a little bit more storytelling on. Time to conversion. So like a marketing lead actually sometimes is a net new out client. We you know, so never never worked with the firm before, maybe it converts quicker, all that stuff. And those are just, you know, more talking points. But subtly it's basically, you know, c what can we add to you know to power the the growth targets of That's basically, you know, the sales value of something coming through the marketing function. But you mentioned impressions and one of the things I've struggled with and this is where I want to is kind of how to tell a digital narrative because a lot of dollars are being put to work in digital channels. Are you seeing anything that works that I could learn from? speaker-2: I mean I think at least from my perspective in the digital space, I mean th one of the reasons why a lot of businesses wanted to push marketers into using digital is because it is measurable, right? Because there are numbers that are behind it. ⁓ but the challenge becomes like what do those numbers actually mean? And what is the actual impact behind the numbers? And I think that's what I was referring to is that you get these impression numbers that if you say that to a person outside of marketing, it doesn't really have a lot of value to them to understand that like Impression is actually very important because it grows brand over time, right? And like it can have a lot of value to it. But it's really hard to get somebody outside of marketing to not only understand but appreciate that value behind it. In digital, I think the number one place still right now, unfortunately, that f functions w it B2B is email. And and that's only because it is so trackable. Yes. And because email is ultimately the main driver behind a lot of the content programs that people put out, right? Like if you're a Cantar or any other business like that you are probably a part of in the B2B world, you're probably putting out some sort of content in the forms of like thought leadership or hosting webinars or things like that. And your main communication tool to your clients and to prospects is gonna be to send out emails. I mean, yes, you're gonna put your post on social. But we also know from looking at the social metrics and stuff that the numbers and the engagement behind that are not nearly as strong as what people s tend to still think when they have effective email marketing programs. So I think that's really where I've seen it. But Jamie, I know you've done a lot more connected No, I will say one nice note about that too, is that just that at Cantar and at other roles I've had, it has been a struggle because if you're in a business where you're often going for net new business, that can be in a way easier, right? Because you're starting from scratch and then there's a number that suddenly exists out of nowhere. Where I s struggled a lot w within Cantar's was within Cantar's environment was having that conversation to get valu get my sorry. Where I struggled at Cantar was getting my actual approval to say, yes, I influence this this marketing, this client. And like a good example from that would be that years and years ago when Snapchat was just introducing the first version of their glasses. and at the time also there we knew Snapchat was really heavily being used by Gen Zers, but marketers weren't really sure how to use it and engage with it at the time. And so we were at Cantor were doing a lot of work with Snapchat at the time. I worked with them to include them in thought leadership pieces, have them featured on webinars, go out on stage and co present with them. And then when we hosted the A Cantar's annual big event that year, ⁓ which was the breakthrough conference, we hosted it in New Orleans, we put Snapchat on stage as like the main pr presentation right after the keynote to explain Snapchat and to show marketers how to use it and how to engage with the audience. ⁓ and then after that I had to have those arguments still with the other teams to be like, Hey, do I get credit for the fact that like their budget with us went up year over year? Because we did all of these activities last year and you don't always get that credit. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: No. I I told Aaron sometimes that my response is always like it's a part and a science and I wanna understand when we're doing a marketing activity. Yes, I'm not Thank you. much easier to prove marketing generating pipeline because people are just new to the system. and I think when you have a business that's more mature and so you're talking about people cross selling, upselling, taking a little more budget, doing a little more consulting work, it's harder to prove, but we would do everything we could to talk different ways within the C R ⁓ system that we're just tracking how speaker-2: But And we No. And one thing that we did do, Jamie, I remember now that you just mentioned that, one thing that we did do in that scenario was that you know, we did start, and that was the first year we did it, we did start implementing the post event survey as a way to collect data and we, you know, we we had the clients respond with who they were so we could see who it was that responded. So that was one way that did give me a little bit of credibility and abil and ability to go and get credit for things because I could go back and say, Well, not only did we do all these things, But this person also said th they responded this way in the survey in terms of their satisfaction, blah blah blah, but they also said this direct quote. And that helps a lot, obviously, right? Because Yeah. speaker-0: It's a good one and it's a best practice. Like sometimes we move on. So I I I fall into that trap in my current role, ⁓ you know, ⁓ with the pressures that the business has just in general. It's not specific to marketing, where we're highly focused on execution. and that allows us to say, look at all the things we've done but no one really s you know, th th ⁓ in a partnership organization, you know, with you know, fifty partners in the US, Canada, Mexico markets, they all look and say, Well you've executed fifty campaigns, that's great, but you didn't do one for me, so like that's not a really ⁓ a stat that they're super excited about. But then they also say maybe you're also focused on the wrong things. So there's a little bit of that. I mean I think also one other anecdote just to pivot a little bit, which I found and I'm curious is I found clients sometimes now ⁓ in their what I call their journey ⁓ as they get exposed to emails, Aaron as you said, or just touch points, they're interested in interacting with the marketing organization. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ because quite frankly they don't really like the Salesforce or they don't really want to have that conversation with an individual who will listen but ultimately try to turn that into a commercial opportunity. They they they they contact me and say, What are the next three things I could be doing? or what's your latest thought leadership, or can you send me IP on this? And I'm a client I'm a you know service oriented marketeer, you know, I respond quickly, ⁓ I answer the question succinctly and and that's it. I say just reach out again if you have something else and they have a really great experience. So that speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Drives brand. ⁓ but I if I bring this anecdote to the room, Aaron, they kind of look at me and we're like, Why did they email you suspiciously? And I'm kind of like, Well, it's right there in front. Like, I don't I don't really have any skin in the game except to make them happy. ⁓ and and that's a whole nother paradigm that we don't even touch, which is are we creating some level of client satisfaction, which is speaker-1: Unmeasurable at times. speaker-2: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. No, and I do think that I think you're right. And that that also is a good segue into the next question I was going to ask too, because I think that part of what you're referring to is the fact that successful marketing also relies on having a good relationship with your sales, your commercial strategy, your product teams and stuff, because ⁓ you need their cooperation To go out and do those types of things. And the best salespeople actually do, and in my opinion, the best salespeople I've worked with and client service people are the people who engage marketing because they are the ones who are looking at all the things we're creating and saying, like, okay, how can I use that content to cry provide additional value to my client? How can I make sure my client gets to attend that event or even gets to be on stage at that event because it's a great opportunity for them and it's a great relationship builder for me? And marketing is creating all these opportunities for me. And so You know, I think that the best client leaders, the best sales leaders embrace marketing and bring them into the fold because to your point, they aren't trying to sell them, right? Like I can remember ⁓ the back when even before when I was not in a specific marketing role, I was doing client service for Compete, which was a Cancer company, that's how it first got in. ⁓ and the way that they had our team set up was that every client service person had a salesperson that was their partner. And so for instance, Sprint was one of my main clients. Every time I went out to Kansas City, my sales partner, Joe, was with me. And what that did was it put me in the unique position of always getting to be an expert with an opinion that I could give them that was impartial because I wasn't appearing to sell them anything. Joe was there to manage the contract and sell them stuff. That's up to him to watch what I'm doing and the interactions we're having and for him to find those opportunities. And in a way it was great for him because all of those conversations that I'm having with them, he probably otherwise wouldn't have been privy to some of that kind of knowledge. So that's where I think there's a lot of value in that relationship between marketing and sales. You know, w why don't you tell us a little bit about, you know, your experience with that? Because you've kind of had a unique experience where you've kind of done a little bit of all of those roles and been involved in the marketing, the sales, the commercial strategy. speaker-0: Yeah, thanks for the question and I I completely agree with your example there. I I couldn't have given a better one myself. You know, market you know, some people say marketing is seat at the table, marketing and the leadership, but it's really actually the ability for marketing to get client feedback in whatever, you know, capacity they can get it. You obviously had really f quality face-to-face interaction. ⁓ you know, I I'm a big believer in a lot of the events that we run that marketing is sort of running it end to end and you know, the experience of the person walking through the door to when they leave. speaker-1: Which is speaker-0: And the follow-up. And somewhat people want to disintermediate that, and the salespeople come in right away. And I'm you're you're sort of jumping the gun and breaking process here. And there's a reason that there's a process. This has been an age-old thing to allow people to take a breath, you know, think about what they learned, you know, let's say if it was ⁓ you know, an executive breakfast, which is what we run a lot, and clients give us great feedback and then let the sales, you know, ⁓ funnel or cycle, whatever you want to call it, ⁓ begin. And don't don't disintermediate marketing too early, simply put. And so ⁓ I don't really have much to add except it's really important that culturally and ⁓ individually we believe, and especially in a B2B situation, that that's really important. Because if you kind of sit behind your desk, you then you're great, but you're just gonna make PowerPoints pretty or publish ads, and that's great. And quite frankly, it's a it's not a terrible role, but I'm more curious and hungry at times. I want to kind of see what the market's reaction to these things are. ⁓ and luckily enough, at Roland Berger, marketing has been able. to you know break down some of those barriers and and do it. But it's still a little bit of a journey as any company is. So yeah, ⁓ thank you for your question. I think ⁓ that's how I I feel strongly ⁓ to aligned to what you shared. speaker-1: We had a program at Pantar for a while. We called it the end of the day it was just marketing having a seat at the team. Very disconnected from their own make the individual a little more famous ⁓ and get their brand out there and also bring just Yes. speaker-0: You know, this is what Yeah. speaker-1: Exactly. So speaker-0: I'm I'm making my formal request now to have me back on when you guys do the ABM episode, because that'll take us down a rabbit hole for another day, but I have a lot of strong opinions on that one. But let's keep moving. speaker-1: Definitely invite you back. This has been so fun already. ⁓ I'm gonna transition us to let's do a wrap up because we've kind of covered this a little bit already, but give me like the top three ⁓ misconceptions that you think executives have. gonna put together a one sheeter and hand it to executives saying this is what you don't understand about marketing. speaker-0: What would you put on that one cheer? Yeah, so I'll give you a my number one is brand and how to understand how to power that. So I'd like to return to that in a second, but just simply put, you know, what if ⁓ and we ha we faced this at Roland Burger, you know, we are speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: really group talented group of individuals, but ultimately at times our competition in especially in the strategy consulting space, McKinsey, Bain, BCG, they have more scale and they have more brand recognition. And so we want to solve that. And do we solve it as a local market challenge? Do we solve it at the corporate level? ⁓ It's complex. So let's let's go back to brand. I think the next one would be ultimately marketers need to be not only knowledgeable and dangerous, but like we need to really have conversations like this and explain speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Explore and learn and take ideas. I I was at a conference last Thursday. ⁓ it was a presenter from Hitachi talking about some of their data center offers. Great presentation. And her first slide, just to share about herself, was an action figure, you know, like in old school in the plastic, and then she had the the vitals there. And I was like, what a wonderful way to communicate just who you are as an individual. And I get asked to do that, and I'm up there and maybe I show pictures of my kids and my family. And and people kind of look at it, they're like, We all got this same slide. But in that moment. I was riveted. So just you know, just being in the field ultimately, or reading online, hearing some examples. I'd love to talk to you about that Callaway or LoveSack example at the end here, which is going viral at the moment. ⁓ so really but just you know paying attention to what's going on in the market to learn ⁓ and collaborate with Pierce. That's the second one. And the third one actually is a little harder, which is know your stuff, present your story, be great at storytelling, back it up with data. Marketing can still be classified as a cost center. ⁓ not a profit center. I definitely believe that revenue enablement, not to throw all of these, you know, jargony taxonomy into the conversation here. But like that's really important to know you know what marketing needs to do to demonstrate it's an important part of the business. A lot of leaders organically come in and say like I believe in marketing, which is a a wonderful thing to hear, but ultimately you got to be able to walk the walk and talk the talk, bring the data, know the client base, be able to have a few KPIs that you can refer to Constantly and also be proud. And one of those things I think last but not least, you know, at RB we're doing is we're constantly trying to shout of where marketing has some success stories. In a measured way. We have a newsletter, we tried some other formats, people now self-service themselves, but it allows the full business to basically not show up at my door and be like, remind me what you do, because you get that question and then you're speaker-1: ⁓ speaker-0: Mm, you know, you're gonna have to recover. So th three things, you know, sort of the brand, ⁓ the collaboration and then just the knowledge to be able to tell your story to your internal organization. Thanks, Jamie. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: Yeah, I mean it sounds like ⁓ you know I think I think about those exam that example that you gave about the person giving the presentation where she put up her stats with the figure. I think that in marketing nowadays it is tough to sometimes get the audience to pay attention, you know? Yes. ⁓ I remember one time ⁓ when I was promoting the annual Cantar breakthrough event and it had been a couple of years and I really wanted to make sure every all the sales and client service paid attention and actually went and tried to get clients to attend and everything. I was doing the launch, you know, internal kickoff meeting with everybody. And because I'm a geek and I at the time was doing a lot of c comic conventions and doing cosplay, I showed up to the meeting in my green Power Rangers outfit. So like it was a Zoom call, so everybody was just on Zoom. But or teams or whatever, but you know, they logged in and there I am just sitting there with the green Power Ranger helmet on and the whole green suit and I'm just sitting there on screen waiting for them. And then I took the hat off and then gave my presentation, but it really did get everybody to pay attention there for for a minute. speaker-1: No. speaker-0: ⁓ and that's your individual brand, which is probably something that I didn't list off there, but like that also matters. And that's on a journey. You know, I see some of my team and they're super talented and I'm gonna watch them grow. ⁓ maybe a final thought here was ⁓ funny enough at that conference there was another question asked, and it was like, What's your most ⁓ impactful marketing experience? What are you most proud of? You know, and the three individuals in the panel, you know, because I think they followed the lead of the first person, went with really, you know, campaign performance. And and I had the opportunity speaker-1: People speaker-0: I w I I have a great team and when I get a resignation from an individual and it says I'm going to this job and it's a good job, I'm like, I did something right as a team leader. I'm like, you get to go do your next role, you taking skills from me. I am sad to lose you, but I am also super excited that you've done this. And I think that's also maybe something that's lost in sort of B to B marketing and I think something about this conversation is which is we're sort of all in this boat together. ⁓ and as new marketeers come into the fold, you know, there are all these new things. ⁓ we have touched on AI in this conversation, thank goodness. ⁓ but ultimately watching great people you know have great careers and then maintaining relationships like this going forward, hyper you know, hyper rewarding, super rewarding ⁓ because quite frankly, you know, the rest of the stuff, you know, you can go to bed at night and not worry about impressions or whatever. But I do care about the relationship speaker-1: Yeah, and I think that's part of why Aaron and I started this podcast because of the human element, right? There's so much content out there that's AI created and AI sloth as we talk about on human very human. ⁓ but I think we can't ignore AI either, and we all know that. So I think that's you know, maybe that's a good transition question for you. We haven't talked about AI, but I think we would would be remiss to not get your opinion on the shiny new object, right? So there is this thing, we're all being asked to do it, we're all being asked The human Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, and so I think at times, first of all, we overindex on that, you know, need, which is like, are we using it enough and how are we using it? So two thoughts there. One is on my team, I've asked one individual who's super talented to kind of try to find use cases and empower the marketing function to have some AI expertise that that is domain specific. ⁓ and that's talking about what ChatGPT is good at, that's what Claude's good at, how are we creating videos, images, all that stuff. ⁓ and then There's also a baseline expectation on everybody on the team has to have some certain skills. Like you might be able to go into CRM or HubSpot to do certain things. You know, you just basically have the AI expertise to be able to do, you know, the basics, maybe basics plus one, right? So there's sort of two ends of that ⁓ that that story there, which is you know, power using use cases and exploring, and then the baseline. Me as an end user, I find you know, ⁓ the AI tools a wonderful thought partner. They make me better at my job. They allow me to be more efficient and accelerate. ⁓ but I also have three or four things that I just wish I could go into dynamic CRM and write a prompt like at ChatGPT and just say, who's my most engaged client in 2026 or who's the best sales? And right I'm still pulling tables and doing all the old school way. So like at times ⁓ I think we're only scratching the surface. So I am optimistic that these ⁓ technologies and tools will eventually make me even more ⁓ even better at my job But right now I'm establishing guardrails and expectations, which is keep pushing the boundaries and figuring out as these new models get released, you know, what can they do for us. ⁓ and then ultimately ⁓ make sure you have those skill sets. And just ⁓ on that new model release as an example, most AI video creators right now have about a 30 second ⁓ timeout. That's about as much content. Then you need a third party to to stitch it all together. ⁓ and so my boss will be like, Great, create me an AI video. I need a ninety second reel on this. The manpower that goes into creating ninety seconds of AI video generated content is not insignificant. The outcome is quite good and in its at times cheaper than ever employing a videographer or all that stuff. So don't misunderstand me. But like the disconnect on how fast that should turnaround should be and what it can really become, they're not interested in hearing that. But quite frankly, it's not where executives think it is at the moment. It's in le at least in that use case. So it is what it is, right? Like you just it's it there's some cognitive dissonance that's happening of like how it's gonna make us all better and faster, Jamie. And quite frankly, you have to apply it in the right place and then you get the real speaker-1: ⁓ I couldn't tell you how many times I was asked, can't you just co-pilot this? And I would be like, No, I got the spreadsheets on my desktop and we are we are doing tables because this is not co-piloted, but I totally agree. I'm looking forward to it ⁓ making some aspects so much easier and I love the idea of asking the CRM ⁓ to answer me some of those quiet questions, but yes, we haven't quite been there yet. speaker-0: Me too. speaker-2: Super. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: I think what we'd love to know from you is what do you believe now about marketing that you definitely didn't believe when you got started in your family business? Sure. I'm trying to not be a pessimist here at the end, ⁓ but I'll I'll I'll make it real. You know, I have two kids at home, right? And as a marketing professional, ⁓ I've got a lot of you know interesting anecdotes. ⁓ my wife is a fractional CFO, so she's sort of in a services role too. I'm not sure I would tell my two kids to pursue a career in marketing. ⁓ I love what I do. ⁓ it is a frustrating place to be at times, and it is a challenging place, lots of pressure. ⁓ organizations Don't quite fully understand. And we're these are sophisticated companies, but like what marketing can do for them. So there's a lot of knowledge transfer. So I think right now my question is: you know, is marketing a ⁓ and I'll ask you this question: is marketing a fun job? Is it a good job? I think the answer can be two things. Two things can be true. Yes, but also no. speaker-2: Hundred percent. speaker-1: Got it. speaker-2: And I think the other I think the other side of that too is like, you know, even f you know, early in my career, it's not like I was sitting there aspiring and being like, Man, I can't wait until one day where I get to report on MQLs at an executive meeting. Like I just can't wait. I'm gonna be so excited that day comes. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: You gotta embrace it my friend. You gotta embrace it 'cause there's no alternative at this rate. But I I agree. If ⁓ if if if I fall asleep at night and I'm worrying about MQLs, it's not been a great day. No. speaker-2: More speaker-1: The the the the speaker-2: No, no, no. ⁓ all right, so time for our one last thing ⁓ that we like to do as we wrap up our episodes. ⁓ let's talk a little bit. You mentioned this ⁓ earlier, but the thing we were discussing before we got on that we thought we'd talk about is ⁓ some sort of brand missteps that have happened lately. ⁓ the the two examples being Callaway and Good Good ⁓ collaboration and ⁓ the Love Sack brand. And so ⁓ just for context for listeners, ⁓ the Callaway Good Good story if you haven't seen is that They released an ad, it had a somewhat questionable ⁓ narrative to it, ⁓ and there's been a lot of ⁓ backlash to the ad, not just from you know, from people watching the ad or from the industry, but actual ⁓ physical reactions in terms of retailers dropping, you know, products, ⁓ sponsorships being evaluated, things like that. ⁓ and so I know Stefan, you also mentioned that there was something similar that happened with speaker-0: I I I I'm a LoveSack customer, so if they're out there listening, you know, ⁓ so I got the couch. But I mean it look, it's ⁓ it's a modular couch company, I guess, and they, you know, deliver it to your home. You go into a storefront and a mall and try it out, and then they send it to you and you assemble it. And ⁓ basically a content creator, a comic online, you know, kind of had a negative experience putting it together, and then the CEO got involved, ⁓ and it's just an example of where something can go viral. An executive maybe sees an opportunity for I would say more of a simple outcome, which is this is great for my brand or community, but it's more complex, you know, especially on social where things people can engage and react in real time. So I think that, you know, regardless of that specific example, it's really important that you gotta be again back to my point in the market watching these things because there's a learning, right? And maybe that might suit you well because as marketers, we could find ourselves in that same moment, right? You know, different companies, different jobs, different challenges. What's your reaction, Aaron, on the Callaway one? I'm also learning ⁓ about that. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-0: ⁓ and I I I I'm I'm not ⁓ my mind's not made up yet because quite frankly, ⁓ it's a little shocking. speaker-2: I mean I think what Jamie and I were talk sorry, go ahead, Jamie. speaker-0: Yeah. Yes. speaker-1: All ⁓ understand fundamentally like all of the layers that go into creating an advertisement and improving it and creative boards and hopefully testing. I mean a little shout out for testing your ads, but ⁓ I think most shocking is just Executive level. to the airways and even piss people off at the Perthways. speaker-2: I mean that's the part that I think is kind of the most shocking of all of this for me. Obviously the ad content is n is not something that I condone in any kind of way, or but to your point, understand really the h the humor that was intended behind it, I think. But ⁓ I think it g the question is, you know, was this tested and did this go through any sort of review to understand how ⁓ audiences of various types would respond to it? Because, you know, Callaway, as you mentioned, is a golf brand, but it does serve a large broad audience of people. It's not one target segment, it's a number of different target segments. So you would think if the ad went through testing, they would have seen enough negative response from seg some segments to say, you know what, it's not worth the risk of putting this type of thing out there. I think it's also interesting because I was mentioning to Jamie, what a ⁓ in l watching and seeing the further longer version of the ad, what it made me think that they were trying to accomplish was if any of you remember the slew of Orbitz Gum ads that ran back in the late nineties and early two thousands. They were these very tongue in cheek, but aggressive, right? Like the people in them were often having these really heated arguments and yelling things at each other or whatever. So like it was in a boardroom and like a couple arguing. It was a bunch of different examples like that. And it was this very dark humor, right? And I think that's what they were trying to accomplish here, but I think again going back to the idea of testing and understanding your audience and who what your brand is, I think the audience and the brand of chewing gum is not the same as expensive golf clubs. And so I think that's really where the shock for me comes in too is like I'm just surprised that no one at Callaway looked at it as well and said, I'm not sure if this really aligns with our brand and who we are, even if it even if it might go viral, but is it who we are as a brand are and how we want to be represented? And I think that's kind of the question that at least a lot of us marketers are thinking when we see something like that is how did it get through and how did somebody not raise a raise a hand about that? So speaker-0: Super insightful iron. Yeah, I appreciate that. Very interesting. No no that one I'll leave for ⁓ that one I'll leave for someone else. speaker-2: ⁓ speaker-0: ⁓ I I have ⁓ I have seen some of these ⁓ deals and stuff like that and it's ⁓ it's it's it's really it you know, talk about art and science. That's a skill set, you know, to really be able to use content creators and influencers to especially in that market. And ⁓ again that's where domain expertise and then executives there has to be alignment where they maybe just argue that we should be doing more online and then you gotta go through the whole process of really being able to deliver something like that. So no, there there are people out there who are super talented at that. So but who Great examples. speaker-1: Maybe I'm just happy to be an analog marketer and well, I don't know if I could be a content creator. So anyway, thank you so much for joining us. speaker-0: Yes. Good one and on. Been a pleasure. Great to see you, Jamie. Great to see you, Aaron. speaker-2: Yeah, thanks Stefan and thanks to all of our listeners. You know, catch us on our next episode as we keep exploring the human side of marketing in this digital world that we're now living in. ⁓ as always, we appreciate your feedback, any subscribes, likes, shares, and all of that jazz. ⁓ until next time, we'll see ya. speaker-0: Hi. Thanks for tuning in to the Last Analog Marketers Podcast. Like, share, and subscribe to keep in tune and show your support.