Latest / Math Therapy / S4E10: Queering math w/ Dr. Anthony Bonato

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S4E10: Queering math w/ Dr. Anthony Bonato · Math Therapy

0:01
SPEAKER_02: And math is one of those things.
0:03
SPEAKER_02: You don't need a billion dollar super collider sitting somewhere in Europe to do it, right?
0:07
SPEAKER_02: You just need a pen and a paper.
0:09
SPEAKER_02: The proof of the Riemann hypothesis, considered one of the deepest problems in all mathematics, could be sitting in the mind of a 16-year-old trans woman.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: We're not doing the richest mathematics if we're not including everybody.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Vanessa Vicaria, aka the Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, we did it.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Another season of math therapy comes to a close.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: And honestly, every time we start looking for new guests, I keep being like, ugh, is this eventually gonna get repetitive?
0:58
SPEAKER_00: But it never does.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: I honestly love every single conversation.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: I've learned so much and been so inspired by every single episode we've recorded since day one.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: And honestly, today's interview with Dr.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: Anthony Bonato is truly one of my favorites and captures everything that math therapy is about.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: I've kind of actually known Anthony for years, but like not known him at all.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: Like I saw him around at STEM conferences over the years and have creeped him on Twitter, partially because he's insightful, but mostly because he's hilarious.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: Anthony is all about being out and proud about his queerness and his love of pop culture, all while being a highly regarded university math professor.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: Anthony is all about being his authentic self as a math prop, which sadly is pretty unusual.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Today, Anthony and I delve into some seriously juicy questions like why is math culture so fucking snobby?
1:44
SPEAKER_00: How do we allow our profs, students, and everyone else to embrace themselves as math people and as the many other things that they are?
1:50
SPEAKER_00: And perhaps most importantly, is Adele aware that by naming her albums numerically, that she might actually be starting a new never seen before mathematical sequence.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Yep, we're about to go rolling in the deep.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: Anthony, welcome to math therapy.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: We are so excited to have you.
2:08
SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to be here.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: I want to just start by talking about the one, well, not the one thing.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: We have a lot of things in common, but one thing we have in common is our joint love for both pop culture and math and for bridging the two together.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: And I love it because we do it in very different ways.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: And I've been obsessed with your articles.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the last one I read was about Adele and her numbering of albums and all of your theories about why she's chosen the numbers she's chosen, even though when I tell people they're like, it's her age.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, yes, but Anthony thinks there might be some mathematical reasoning.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: So I mean, I want to ask, just start by asking, how did you bridge your two?
2:47
SPEAKER_00: How did you decide to bring your love for pop culture and math together?
2:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like it's it's almost grossly frowned upon in academia.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: So how did you just decide to go for it?
2:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I have always been interested in pop culture.
3:00
SPEAKER_02: It's something that I grew up with.
3:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, I was a kid in the 70s and the 80s, and I was obsessed with television and films and books and so on.
3:08
SPEAKER_02: And um, of course, I'm a mathematician, I have a PhD in mathematics, I'm I'm a full professor of mathematics, and I just feel it's kind of silly to try and keep the two things separate.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: And I I have my mathematical research, which is you know published in in these kind of very serious journals, which like you know, very few people read or understand.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, articles like the one you referenced with Adele in the conversation, I'm sure you understand this, it kind of has a much broader reach, right?
3:35
SPEAKER_02: And it gets reprinted places, and I get to speak to people like you.
3:38
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I I just think like in general, sort of more broadly, there's definitely um an absence of the linking of math and and fun, math and pop culture, right?
3:50
SPEAKER_02: So that I'm sure this is something really near and dear to you.
3:54
SPEAKER_02: Um you know, we spend a lot of time sort of keeping math in a box, making it feel sort of like stultified and boring and so on.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: And I think just ways of pulling people in.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: Like if I could just say, like with the Adele article, so that's that Adele sequence that you referenced, right?
4:12
SPEAKER_02: With 19, 21, 25, and 30, which, you know, as you say, her age is when she recorded the album or she wrote the album.
4:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I'm very interested, and I use in my own research something called the online encyclopedia of integer sequences.
4:26
SPEAKER_02: Have you heard of that before?
4:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, no, this is so exciting.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm like just hanging on to every word.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: Tell us more.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: So sequences, so just lists of numbers.
4:35
SPEAKER_02: Right.
4:36
SPEAKER_02: So this is like a kind of a Google form.
4:38
SPEAKER_02: You can go on the website and you enter in a string of numbers, just a list of numbers, and it gives back like a like a Google query, it gives back a bunch of you know different sequences that that match that.
4:50
SPEAKER_02: And this Adele sequence, if you enter it into this online encyclopedia, it will tell you different sequences which match it.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: Like what's one example?
4:58
SPEAKER_00: Like what's one sequence that matches it?
5:00
SPEAKER_02: So 19's in there in this special sequence.
5:02
SPEAKER_02: It's called A072666.
5:05
SPEAKER_02: That's the name of this sequence.
5:07
SPEAKER_02: And if you keep going, you're gonna find 21 is in there, 25 is in there, and 30 is in there.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: So all of Adele is.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, Adele was using this sequence to label her albums.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that?
5:19
SPEAKER_00: Do you honestly believe that?
5:21
SPEAKER_00: You believe that?
5:21
SPEAKER_02: No, that's that's bullshit.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay, also, wait, what kind of a name of a sequence?
5:27
SPEAKER_00: What did you say it was called?
5:28
SPEAKER_00: A O O What?
5:30
SPEAKER_02: It's called the online, uh, it's called OEIS, which I always forget the acronyms, online Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:38
SPEAKER_02: It has literally thousands of these different sequences.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: But why don't they name them like something cool?
5:44
SPEAKER_02: They're just too many.
5:45
SPEAKER_02: There's just too many.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: And I think some of them are kind of obscure.
5:48
SPEAKER_02: So like this one is fairly obscure, right?
5:50
SPEAKER_02: It's A072666.
5:52
SPEAKER_02: So that one, 31, is the next one after 30.
5:56
SPEAKER_02: So you you know, you think it would be the next album, which you know, who knows?
5:59
SPEAKER_02: But but there are other sequences.
6:01
SPEAKER_02: There are actually nine sequences in OEIS which match 1921, 25, and 30.
6:08
SPEAKER_02: And another sequence, I think this one has the catchy title of A142958.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, stop.
6:16
SPEAKER_02: This one is the next one after 30 is 41.
6:19
SPEAKER_02: So okay, so Adele's gonna be middle-aged.
6:23
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: She'll have done her Vegas residency, and I don't know, she'll still be making albums.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: You think she's not, but can I ask you a question?
6:30
SPEAKER_00: If she makes an album at like 35 and names at 35, will she have fucked up the whole sequence?
6:36
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so here's the really interesting mathematical point.
6:38
SPEAKER_02: You hit right on the target.
6:41
SPEAKER_02: If she comes up with something which matches a known sequence, that's okay.
6:45
SPEAKER_02: You can go back to OAS and find it.
6:47
SPEAKER_02: Adele may create something which is not in own sequence.
6:52
SPEAKER_02: We don't know.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: And then we could actually name it the Adele sequence and not like some annoying name.
6:57
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay, Adele, if you're listening, you've got a bigger goal than making another hit song.
7:04
SPEAKER_02: Right.
7:04
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, and of course, you know, math, you know, I'm sure Adele is not thinking at all about mathematics when she's naming these things.
7:10
SPEAKER_02: But it's fun to think about it.
7:11
SPEAKER_02: And it's the way, you know, people who wouldn't ordinarily think ordinarily think about primes or sequences or anything like that, you know, maybe they'll click on the link in the article and they'll go to OES and sort of experiment around and just get an awareness that math is just like, you know, you know, multiplication table or something like this, right?
7:26
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I love this because obviously we've tackled this from two completely different angles.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: Math pun.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: But I remember when I was in academia doing my master's of math education, I was pissed off.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: I was like reading all these articles.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: I was like, who the fuck is ever gonna read these?
7:43
SPEAKER_00: Like, no one ever, and they're full of good, useful information, right?
7:47
SPEAKER_00: Like I was, you know, my thesis was called Imagining a World Where Paris Hilton Loves Math.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: It's literally so applicable to the way we teach kids, to all of the stuff we now call EDI, like all of this.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: And I knew I was like, no one will ever actually I didn't.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh my God, this is gonna make me famous, everyone's gonna read it.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: And then I realized, like, you know, I checked like a year later and like 10 people had looked it up from the UBC library.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, but that's when I started doing more accessible stuff, exactly like you're saying, right?
8:16
SPEAKER_00: So taking that research, just like you're taking your expertise in math and actually applying it on more accessible platforms.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: So exactly writing articles for because where was that Adele one?
8:26
SPEAKER_00: Wasn't it The Guardian?
8:27
SPEAKER_02: The conversation as an open license.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: So I think the conversation, right?
8:30
SPEAKER_02: The National Post reprinted it.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: Uh The Mirror in the UK reprinted it.
8:34
SPEAKER_02: There's some stuff in the Philippines and India as well.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: So it can have pretty big reach.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: So cool.
8:38
SPEAKER_02: Pretty big reach, yeah.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: So like writing stuff for platforms that are not only accessible by those in academics.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: In fact, a lot of those academic journals, like you need a membership, right?
8:47
SPEAKER_00: You can't just like download and read that stuff.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's exactly and and yeah, in terms of like, you know, like shifting gears a little bit, but not even really.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: I think both of us are very interested in accessibility and inclusion in math, right?
9:02
SPEAKER_00: So like creating content that is more accessible and understandable by the general population allows more people to be included in the conversation and to see themselves as capable of math.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: Like, isn't that kind of the goal in a way?
9:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the the litmus test for me is my my husband when I talk to him about math.
9:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, if his eyes roll to the back of his head, I realize I'm going on too long or getting too technical, right?
9:25
SPEAKER_02: Because he he's not a mathematician, right?
9:27
SPEAKER_02: And this this is really healthy for me.
9:29
SPEAKER_02: Um I know a lot of academics who are say married or, you know, like partner with someone who is another academic, and I'm sure they have great conversations.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: But do they though?
9:37
SPEAKER_02: You know, we I don't know.
9:39
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, we definitely we definitely have to make an effort.
9:43
SPEAKER_02: I mean, academics cannot live in this ivory tower and expect, you know, people to be interested in their work, to fund their work, you know.
9:49
SPEAKER_02: So it's uh it's really important to me to kind of make that bridge.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: Wait, can we?
9:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm so curious about this because I think you're actually the first academic I've spoken to that kind of shares my views on academics, which is like really interesting.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: Like you're kind of like a badass in a way, right?
10:05
SPEAKER_00: Because I feel like and I'm literally now, when I made that couple joke about the two academics being married to each other, I'm actually thinking of two of my friends who actually sometimes listen, listening to them have conversations.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, come on.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm joking, I love them dearly and they're awesome.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: But I will say they would be very put off by the idea that academics are in their ivory tower.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: Like I think a lot of academics still think, especially when it comes to math, I will say, and I don't want to just blame academics, but truthfully, they're largely to blame that like it is kind of a club, right?
10:43
SPEAKER_00: Like it is kind of like only certain people belong to.
10:46
SPEAKER_02: You can feel like that.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: So I mean, I kind of like what do you think about that?
10:51
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that's changing?
10:53
SPEAKER_00: Like, do you think, do you feel like you're an outcast having this view while still being in academia?
11:01
SPEAKER_02: I feel more like an outcast in academia, specifically in the mathematics community because of my sexuality being a gay man.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: That's that's a piece that I've I've sort of felt more and more acutely lately.
11:14
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I I don't necessarily think academics always intentionally try and be obscure.
11:19
SPEAKER_02: It's just, you know, the way they talk and the way they write, it's for a specific audience.
11:25
SPEAKER_02: But I I do I do think it should be part of all of us, like all of our toolbox and our approach to spend like at least like 10% of our time writing for the general public, right?
11:34
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
11:35
SPEAKER_02: You know, math is everywhere.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: It's it's inside of everything.
11:38
SPEAKER_02: And seeing something as silly as like the Adele sequence, right?
11:41
SPEAKER_02: I mean, maybe it's not so silly, I don't know.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: And it just it can really pique someone's interest, right?
11:46
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is like the perfect mix of silly and not silly, though.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: Like exactly like you said.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: And I I mean, that would be so cool if that was a mandate, because clearly academics have a lot to share.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: You have a wealth of knowledge.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: It would be so cool.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: You know what, though, we're kind of even seeing this with all the COVID stuff.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: We saw this with science, right?
12:02
SPEAKER_00: And that need for science communication and people being like, okay, scientists, it's so great that you have all this amazing info in your head, but right now we desperately need it for the general public.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: And like you've literally even seen programs in science communication start to be created by colleges.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: Like maybe we need a math communication one.
12:19
SPEAKER_02: Yes, right?
12:20
SPEAKER_00: Like we don't know.
12:21
SPEAKER_02: I think we absolutely do.
12:22
SPEAKER_02: I think mathematicians are particularly bad at it.
12:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, there's some notable exceptions, and I think you know many of them.
12:27
SPEAKER_02: Um, but physics, for example, like is you know, use the pun light years ahead, right?
12:31
SPEAKER_02: I mean, they just they're so good at communicating what they do.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, with New York Times bestsellers, like what do you mean?
12:38
SPEAKER_00: I've never even thought about this.
12:40
SPEAKER_02: Well, I just think because physics, like, you know, the creation of the universe, the end of the universe, black holes, these things, you know, like particles and things like this, yeah, or the James Webb telescope, that kind of thing.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: It's very relatable.
12:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:51
SPEAKER_02: You know, like is there a life in the universe?
12:53
SPEAKER_02: These are kind of questions that astrophysicists, astrobiologists are interested in, right?
12:57
SPEAKER_02: But for mathematicians, it's like, you know, is the twin prime conjecture true?
13:00
SPEAKER_02: Is the Riemann hypothesis true?
13:02
SPEAKER_02: Is does P equal then P?
13:04
SPEAKER_02: These are deep mathematical questions.
13:06
SPEAKER_02: They exist.
13:06
SPEAKER_02: Anyone with pen and paper can doodle and sort of understand what the question is, at least.
13:11
SPEAKER_02: But it's harder to get people sort of engaged with it because I guess partially to do with all the jargon that goes with it, and also because of the inherent math phobia that people have, right?
13:20
SPEAKER_02: Look at that.
13:21
SPEAKER_02: The way math is taught, and yeah.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's I want to shift gears a little because you just mentioned that you felt like a bit of an outcast because of your sexuality.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: And I really want to talk about it because it's something I really love about you.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: Like I love, I mean, and I want to learn from you in terms of kind of bringing your your true full self to the profession, regardless of the fact that people are assholes.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, can I say that?
13:48
SPEAKER_00: Like they just are.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I feel like it can be, it can be, and it can be for sure, especially on social media.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: So let's I would love to hear more about that.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you wrote a a popular blog in 2017 called On Being a Gay Mathematician.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: And I'd love to hear more about your experience, and just because again, this really ties into our conversation about accessibility in a way.
14:07
SPEAKER_02: So I grew up um in a very closeted time in the 1970s and 80s.
14:12
SPEAKER_02: And when I was a teen, I guess also HIV was a thing.
14:16
SPEAKER_02: It still obviously is a thing, but it was um, you know, there were no drugs and it people were dying by large numbers.
14:22
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I heard that number uh recently, 800,000 uh people in the US died of COVID, right?
14:28
SPEAKER_02: And it just reminds me 800,000 gay men died in the 80s and 90s from HIV, from AIDS.
14:34
SPEAKER_02: And it just it it's something that people don't always think about.
14:36
SPEAKER_02: And I I grew up right in the middle of that, right?
14:39
SPEAKER_02: As a you know, as a burgeoning adult, you know, sexually active being.
14:42
SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, through my education and through my doctorate, for example, it there were there were signs, there were things that happened specifically to me that reminded me of my difference, right?
14:54
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I just sort of internalized a lot of this.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: And even as I moved onwards into the professoriate and so on, it's it's been something that I I didn't really think, you know, explicitly a lot about, although I knew, you know, lot there was a lot of homophobia there.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: Um until, you know, I think really the last like probably five years or so, and that blog that you mentioned kind of crystallized my ideas about the topic.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: And so what can you give me a couple examples?
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, and and also, too, I'm just so curious because a second ago you mentioned that um it was more in recent years, which is so interesting because in my mind, as you're talking, I'm like, oh, like, you know, I think we all think things have changed so much.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm definitely in no way thing that we don't have a million miles left to go.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: But I'm surprised to hear that you felt it more in recent times.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: Like, is there like how come?
15:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I and I'll preface things by saying that, you know, like as um as a weight man and a cis man, I I carry a lot of privilege.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: And I think really a lot of the struggle now is focused on, you know, trans, non-binary, genderqueer, this sort of thing.
15:59
SPEAKER_02: I think people in in those sort of settings are having a lot harder time, and there's a lot more interesting struggles perhaps than what I'm going through.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, but also I guess, you know, I mean, I have the privilege of age as well.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: And I'm tenured, all these things.
16:14
SPEAKER_02: So maybe inside myself, I was finally able to get the courage up to talk about these issues.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: And I'm really pleased to see that others are doing that.
16:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, I've been running these conferences, LGBTQ plus math day, uh, which is on LGBTQ plus STEM Day.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: Lots of acronyms here.
16:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, but the idea is to try and just do exactly what we've been discussing, to bring this more into focus, to talk about it more openly and honestly.
16:40
SPEAKER_02: You know, um, math is not gay or straight or trans or non-binary, but the people who do it are.
16:46
SPEAKER_02: And we need to acknowledge that.
16:47
SPEAKER_02: And not everybody feels safe.
16:49
unknown: Uh-huh.
16:49
SPEAKER_02: Not everybody feels like uh they have a voice that's heard.
16:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, for example, next year there's the International Congress of Mathematicians, which runs every four years.
16:59
SPEAKER_02: They give out the Fields Medal, Field Medals plural, um, at this meeting.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: It's going to be held in St.
17:03
SPEAKER_02: Petersburg, Russia.
17:04
unknown: Uh-uh.
17:05
SPEAKER_02: Which is very controversial for a lot of reasons, you know, like they might invade Ukraine any minute, but also because of their very bad human rights records towards LGBTQ Russians, right?
17:15
SPEAKER_02: Specifically in Chechnya, but in other parts of Russia.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: So those issues have become very real.
17:21
SPEAKER_02: And like I can't, I can't go to that conference, for example.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: I just feel I wouldn't feel safe.
17:25
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I wouldn't go because of COVID right now, probably, but regardless, just because of my my sexuality, I wouldn't go.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay, but that's like that's big stuff.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: That's not a casual thing, right?
17:37
SPEAKER_02: Like Oh, it's it's it's huge.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: It's huge.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's yeah, I'm digesting that information of being like, how do you even reconcile that?
17:47
SPEAKER_00: Like, what, like, are they gonna change it?
17:49
SPEAKER_00: Like to me, I'm just like right away, I'm like, okay, they should change it.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's insane.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: No.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: I signed a boycott letter online, and there was an article written, um, a letter written in the American Math Society Noises sort of referencing people who sign that letter is like activists kind of dismissing us.
18:04
SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, the math community is very conservative.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: And um, I know people on the the executive who are really EDI proponents who are going along with it.
18:13
SPEAKER_02: I know people who are invited speakers who are big proponents of EDI who are going along with it.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: And I'm really curious to see what their perspective is because they're gonna have to figure out a way to present in Russia and you know, to sort of reconcile, you know, the the human rights situation there.
18:29
SPEAKER_02: It's it's really problematic.
18:30
SPEAKER_02: But you know, what can you do?
18:31
SPEAKER_02: We live in very complex times.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: When you when you say the math community is really conservative, are I right?
18:38
SPEAKER_00: Like you're kind of like, well, the math community is conservative.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: What math community?
18:42
SPEAKER_00: Am I in it?
18:43
SPEAKER_00: Am I not?
18:44
SPEAKER_00: Which one is it?
18:45
SPEAKER_02: I would include you in it.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, thank you.
18:48
SPEAKER_02: I would definitely include you in it.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think most of the time when people reference math community, you're thinking about math academics at universities.
18:55
SPEAKER_02: Some also in industry, but okay.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not in it.
18:58
SPEAKER_02: I include you in it, but I think like a lot of people think of the math community as this sort of small narrow domain.
19:03
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't necessarily even include math education, right?
19:05
SPEAKER_02: Which I think is really a flawed perspective.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: So where you're talking about like when you're like the math community, you're talking about academic mathematicians.
19:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, people writing papers, you know, this sort of thing, you know.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: Why do you think they're so conservative?
19:21
SPEAKER_00: Like, why the fuck would they care if you were gay or not?
19:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: What does that have to do with math?
19:25
SPEAKER_00: Who cares?
19:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I asked my myself that question a lot.
19:30
SPEAKER_02: I really, you know, why does Jake Rowling care if someone's trans or not?
19:35
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's it's one of these things.
19:37
SPEAKER_02: I think people in positions of power um are sometimes threatened by difference.
19:43
SPEAKER_02: Um the newness of it all, the the rapidity of it.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: Like people like to use the phrase woke now in a negative way.
19:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:50
SPEAKER_02: But the wokeness of it, like one of the recent development is the American Mass Society um canceled or are gonna stop doing their blogs, which includes this inclusion-exclusion blog, which a lot of people in the EDI sphere and math have written in.
20:05
SPEAKER_02: And and they've given various explanations why they're doing this, but you know, I can't help but feel that there's something there about people feeling uncomfortable talking about these things.
20:13
SPEAKER_02: Math and, you know, gender, math and sexuality don't those things don't mix.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: Math and politics don't even mix.
20:20
SPEAKER_02: And in some sense, they don't, right?
20:23
SPEAKER_02: But it's the people who are the people, and it's that sense of exclusion.
20:27
SPEAKER_02: I put something out on Twitter or maybe in a blog somewhere, that you know, the the proof of the Riemann hypothesis, considered one of the deepest problems in all mathematics, could be sitting in the mind of a 16-year-old trans woman, right?
20:38
SPEAKER_02: And I think some people's reaction is like, that's ridiculous.
20:41
SPEAKER_02: You know, that would never happen.
20:43
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, we're we're not doing the richest mathematics if we're not including everyone.
20:50
SPEAKER_02: Everyone, yeah, like all races, all religions, all creeds, all genders, all sexualities, everything.
20:56
SPEAKER_02: Everyone needs to see the table.
20:57
SPEAKER_02: And math is one of those things.
20:58
SPEAKER_02: You don't need a billion dollar super collider sitting somewhere in Europe to do it, right?
21:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you just need a pen and a paper.
21:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:04
SPEAKER_02: And that's that's that's the beautiful thing about mathematics, it's inherently accessible.
21:08
SPEAKER_02: You can sit down with a pen and paper and write out the Adele sequence, whatever it is.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: And same, same with writing a song.
21:14
SPEAKER_02: There you go.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: So the creativity is the same.
21:16
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
21:18
SPEAKER_02: Different facets of all the same thing, right?
21:20
SPEAKER_00: But that's so, and it's true.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: We're not listening to or making the best music unless everyone's invited to the table.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: This is like, I'm like having a goosebumps.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm also so hot because of these flannel pajamas, but I'm like, okay, Anthony, we have to wrap up.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm getting the evil eye from literally everyone, even Sabina, who's not on screen.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: I can tell she's like, wrap it up.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: Um this is the best.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: You're the best.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: You're so cool.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: How can we do better?
21:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, if you're like, what can we do?
21:45
SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that you're like, I really want to say this?
21:49
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, that's a lot of pressure.
21:52
SPEAKER_02: I think we could listen to each other more with compassion.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: And instead of making judgments about others, let's let's try.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Understand them.
22:01
SPEAKER_02: Maybe we won't, but let's try.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, that applies to everything, it applies to mathematics as well.
22:07
SPEAKER_02: And the people who do mathematics and the people have a grievance, if they have some issue, they feel excluded.
22:12
SPEAKER_02: Maybe ask them like why, you know, as a trans person, why don't you feel accepted within the math community?
22:17
SPEAKER_02: If you're a black person, why do you not feel accepted?
22:19
SPEAKER_02: Maybe you'll be educated, maybe inspired, something will move you.
22:23
SPEAKER_02: So I just think we you know, these days there's a lot of rhetoric, there's a lot of heat in our discussion, you know, largely to do with our neighbors in the south, right?
22:32
SPEAKER_02: That's the last four years, five years have really ranked, you know, racket it up, yeah, ratcheted up the sort of disc political discourse and the heat and the you know us versus them mentality.
22:41
SPEAKER_02: I think if we just sat down and listened to each other more, I think we could learn a lot.
22:45
SPEAKER_02: Like this.
22:46
SPEAKER_02: I think this is great.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: I love this.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: Final two questions we ask every guest on the podcast.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: Number one, and I know you probably have a laundry list, but if you had to pick one thing to change about how math is taught in schools, what would it be?
23:01
SPEAKER_02: I've written about this.
23:02
SPEAKER_02: Actually, I think I wrote about it in the conversation.
23:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, make it fun.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: Bam, bam, bam.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: It's one of those things like people overlook.
23:09
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's just one of the it's why would you want to do something?
23:13
SPEAKER_02: Because you think it's useful?
23:14
SPEAKER_02: Because you think that you have to, because you think you're gonna fail the course if you don't do it?
23:18
SPEAKER_02: Make it fun.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: I mean, obviously, you know, you need to learn the basic things like finger exercises and a piano, right?
23:23
SPEAKER_02: You need to know how to multiply, you know, four times five, whatever it is.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: But there should be some sense of exploration and fun with mathematics, or people are just not gonna be interested in it.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: So simple, so easy.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: And finally, what would you say to someone who's like, you know what, I'm just not a math person?
23:41
SPEAKER_02: You know, I I respect that.
23:43
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm not like, you know, I I I love music, but I don't play music and I don't read music, but I I like it, I love it, and I listen to it all the time, and it moves me.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: And I just think people should have an open mind, this idea of listening again.
23:58
SPEAKER_02: Uh, there are things in mathematics that are beautiful, there are things which are not beautiful, but they're things that touch all of us.
24:05
SPEAKER_02: And there's mathematics in things that you don't necessarily expect.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: And uh having that sense of openness and adventure to mathematics like can really help you become maybe a little less of a non-math person.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god! This is so good.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: I can't believe you thought in any way that you were gonna be giving run-on answers.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: Your answers are so concise.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: You must be a really good professor.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: Like you're very like, they're they're like very mic droppy at the end.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: This is the husband rolling his eyes up in my mind, starting to say, Anthony, shut up.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: You sound pretentious.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: No, you don't.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: You don't sound pretentious at all.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: Okay, this was amazing.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: Honestly, Anthony, it has been such a pleasure.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: I hope this is the first of many conversations.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: Like, you're just so fascinating.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited for people to go read your work.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: And I'm so excited to see what Adol's next album is.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: Like, I Yeah, I think we all are.
24:56
SPEAKER_02: She she has to create a new sequence, or else I'm quitting math, I think.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay, we are gonna say goodbye now.
25:03
SPEAKER_02: All right, bye.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: Ugh, Anthony, the queer math icon the world needs right now.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm still so upset that anyone is not allowed to be 100% themselves within the math community.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: Like, why?
25:14
SPEAKER_00: Bringing your whole self to a math problem is what allows you to find a solution that no one else can.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: And what do we need most to tackle the great challenges facing humanity?
25:23
SPEAKER_00: New creative solutions, more innovative and compassionate problem solving.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: And we are not reaching our full potential as a species if we're not letting every single person on this planet participate.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: If you're as obsessed with Anthony as I am, follow him on Twitter at Anthony underscore Bonato.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Trust me, you will not regret it.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: And thank you once again for listening.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: On behalf of our little math therapy team, it really means so much to us.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: The reviews, tweets, and random emails we get about how the show has helped you find confidence in yourself and confront your own math trauma in your own way and at your own pace, that's why we make the show.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: It's been my life mission to break down the social and internal stigma surrounding math, education, and identity in general.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: And if that helps even one person know they're not alone and that math trauma is real and can be overcome, that makes it all worth it.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: If you connected with anything you heard this season, please spread the word, share the show on social media, send an episode to your family or that friend who insists they're just not a math person, and let us know if there are any topics you'd like us to explore next season.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: We're on Twitter at Math Therapy, and you can also follow me personally at the Math Guru on Instagram or Twitter.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vicaria, produced by Sabina Wex, and edited by David Kochberg.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: Our theme song is Waves by my band, Goodnight Sunrise.
26:39
SPEAKER_00: And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting it, you know what to do.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: Love you bye.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: See you next time.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: XOXO Gossip Girl.