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37 Years Sober: Wisdom from Addictions Therapist and Sober House Owner Jay P · Recovering Out Loud

• 0:00
  Do you think the number one reason people go out is people
• 0:04
  relapse, people fail in recovery?
• 0:06
  Like what do you think? I think it's multifaceted.
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  You know, people aren't having a good time, they're not enjoying
• 0:12
  themselves. They haven't found meaning and
• 0:14
  purpose in their life. They haven't found a community
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  that they're a part of. There might be mental health
• 0:21
  issues you don't depression, anxiety, possibly thought
• 0:25
  disorders. It could be finances, you know,
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  financial obligations that they can't meet.
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  And the stressors are overwhelming for them.
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  They just want to get a little bit of relief.
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  Every time I relapsed on cigarettes, it's I just want to
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  drag, you know, I just want to drag.
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  And I have to say to myself, well, you don't smoke
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  cigarettes, so why do you want to drag?
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  And I say, what's the driver? What's the feeling under that
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  drag? Because I know I'll have a drag
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  and I'll be buying a carton within a week.
• 0:57
  Welcome to recovering out loud podcast with your hosts Anthony
• 1:02
  and Caleb. In this podcast, our intention
• 1:04
  is to help the still suffering addict or alcoholic and provide
• 1:08
  you the listener which are experienced strength and hope.
• 1:11
  We share real raw stories of healing, hope and breaking free.
• 1:16
  The opinions expressed here are those of the individuals and any
• 1:20
  organization. Please help support the channel
• 1:22
  by following and rating the show.
• 1:25
  This is the best kind of donation we could receive, so
• 1:27
  grab a seat, take a deep breath, and let's get loud about healing
• 1:32
  together. Bit of that is go use, yeah.
• 1:45
  Do some more controlled drinking.
• 1:46
  It won't. Be a struggle, yeah, until it
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  is. OK, well, listen, Jay, I
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  appreciate you, man. Thanks for coming down.
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  We've been, I know Caleb's not here right now.
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  He's working hard and he can get out, but I know he wanted to be
• 2:00
  here and he texted me and said that I wish I could be here.
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  And we're having a lot of fun doing this, which is is really
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  cool, right? Like I didn't think, I don't
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  know. It just seems it's coming easy,
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  right? And it's, it seems like
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  something that I was, you know, I don't want to say meant to do,
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  but something that I enjoy doing and it doesn't feel like work,
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  right. So why don't you tell me a
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  little bit about JP, who is JP? How did you get into, you know,
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  addiction? What, what you were like, what
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  kind of happened and and what you're like now in a, in a brief
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  way, I guess. OK, great.
• 2:33
  Well, first I want to say thanks for having me down.
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  I really appreciate it. I I really admire what you and
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  and Caleb are doing down here. And I think it's wonderful, you
• 2:43
  know, finding a passion and some meaning in, in, you know, life
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  these days, it can be difficult and challenging.
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  Yeah. So what was I like?
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  What am I like and where am I going?
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  Yeah. What do you like today?
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  I came into using drugs like anyone else.
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  I thought that I found kind of a magic cure during my late
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  adolescence. You know, when everybody's
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  struggling for independence, but we end up all being pretty much
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  the same. Same clothes, same haircuts.
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  And I think, you know, just smoking dope in high school was
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  kind of a, you know, a bit of sense of a rebellion.
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  You know, I'm doing something, you know, that that individuates
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  me or or, you know, highlights my independence and autonomy,
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  you know, And I think that kind of carried on to, you know, when
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  pot wasn't enough and this wasn't enough, that wasn't
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  enough, just carried on to more like pills and powders and
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  things like that. I got, I had a travel agency
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  when I was young and that opened up, you know, the trade routes
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  and that's a whole other podcast, I guess.
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  But Needless to say, that ended up with a long term government
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  vacation. And when I got out of that, I
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  swore I'd never go back to the way I was.
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  I still wanted to use recreationally.
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  And I think once somebody gets into the dependency stage,
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  recreational uses is only a myth, you know, for most of us.
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  I don't, I don't know, maybe some people can have the odd
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  beers here and there, the odd non habit forming herb or
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  something. But for me, it just led me back
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  to the, the pills and the powders and life crashed in on
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  me. And I think my probation officer
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  called me. No, he told me, don't come in.
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  I'll just issue a warrant for your arrest.
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  My parole officer, actually my, my parents, I, I walked into
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  their room in the middle of the night, my dad had told me.
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  And the next morning he said, you came into our room at 2:00
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  in the morning. And I said, oh, no.
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  And he said, you turned on the lights and we asked you what you
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  were doing. You weren't wearing any clothes.
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  And we asked you what you were doing and you said you were
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  waiting for the parade. And he said, if you're back on
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  that, that stuff again, you know, like, just get out of
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  here. Don't, don't, don't call us
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  anymore. We've done what we can.
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  We can't help you anymore. And I kind of knew that was it.
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  You know, I, I couldn't, you know, I, I couldn't go on
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  without my parents support. I don't think my girlfriend had
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  caught me using that weekend. I think the biggest thing that
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  happened though, a guy at work, a manager at work had come up to
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  me and he said my girlfriend goes to see psychics.
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  I went with her yesterday and the psychic said someone you
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  know is going to go back to jail And he said you're the only one
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  I've known who who's ever gone to jail.
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  So he said you better watch it. And at that moment, the the hair
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  on my neck stood I'm. Getting goosebumps you?
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  Know yeah like I was like oh man, you can fool everybody but
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  maybe you can't fool God or your higher self or the spiritual
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  world. You know, I could kind of blow
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  off my parole officer and girlfriend and parents maybe,
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  but I don't know, something stuck that day.
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  And I went to a meet, a 12 step meeting and saw some people I
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  knew and you know, they just kind of spoke my language, you
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  know, like when people spoke and they read and things like that.
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  I related to it, you know, and it was like refreshingly honest
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  to be able to say I'm an addict, you know, like I'm I'm Jay, I'm
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  an addict, you know, and, and kind of like I need help,
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  although I didn't say that, obviously I was there to get
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  help. And I know I just I committed
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  to, you know, what people have told me and I I did the 9090 and
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  things like that. Suggestions I had heard.
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  I I was still smoking some non habit forming herb and and
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  drinking because that wasn't a problem drinking alcohol.
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  And that led me back after about six months ago in the meetings
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  to use my, you know, kind of docs or drug of choice.
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  And then I really realized, I think that's when I hit a
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  different kind of a bottom, more of a spiritual bottom, like I
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  can't do this. And my mentor at the time said,
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  well, you've tried it your way, why don't you try it our way?
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  And I did, he said, you know, try it for 30 days.
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  Just no, you know, non habit forming herb.
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  And no, you know, fooling around with, you know, double gin and
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  tonics at lunchtime, washing down Sudafed or something, you
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  know, falling off the sidewalk. And, and I did that in that 30
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  days, I said, you know, I'll use it 30 days.
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  Then it was 313233 days. And I remember sitting back
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  thinking, how is this working? Like, I could never do this
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  before. I couldn't do it on my own.
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  I couldn't do it with psychiatric help.
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  I couldn't do it in psych units. I couldn't do it through the
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  government vacation when, you know, different agencies would
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  come in and talk to us and things like that.
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  You know, I always thought I must be so sick that I need a
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  team of crack psychiatrists following me around all day
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  figuring out why I'm so messed up, You know, 'cause I generally
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  like a good-natured kind of guy. It wasn't like criminally minded
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  or anything. Like it wasn't like I'm going to
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  break into your house and steal your stuff, you know, drug.
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  Well, drug smuggling and, and, and selling drugs just came
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  easy. Like you said about your
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  podcast, you know, it's just something you knew and it came
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  easy and, and I think, you know, I through recovery, I found the
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  person that I was before I got into the drugs, the person maybe
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  God or my higher self meant me to be.
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  And that felt good. Like it felt good to be honest.
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  It felt good to be authentic. It felt good to it felt good to
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  look at a future, I think because I just lived one day at
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  a time in the moment. And I think, you know, they,
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  they say pot steals your dreams. You know, you don't dream at
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  night when you smoke weed. And I think for the first time
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  in a long time, I started to have some aspirations and some
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  goals and some, you know, dream about things that I would do one
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  day. And it felt good, you know, to
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  not tell lies, you know, not play that double O 7 like, oh, I
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  I I work as a salesman for, you know, selling Apple computers on
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  one side and on the other side I'm dealing heroin.
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  You know, it felt like, you know, now, you know, it was
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  congruent. I could be the person that if I
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  said I'm going to do something, I did it like I had some
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  integrity about me. Yeah.
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  So I think that's where I was. That was like 30 odd years ago.
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  I started to work help lines and help other people and I just
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  found I liked it. You know, I'm a kind of a
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  personable person. I went back to school for
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  counseling. I worked for Ontario Hydra at
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  the time doing workshops and they sent me to McMaster and I
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  went to George Brown and became a counselor.
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  And I guess more recently I started the recovery houses
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  about, not recently, but about 15 odd years ago, I found that
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  there was a hole in the market between public sober houses and
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  private. There were no private sober
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  houses in Toronto at the time. And a buddy of mine, his name's
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  Ori. He's actually my boss now over
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  at Jack's Toronto. Can I say that?
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  Yeah. Yeah, Toronto, Yeah, I worked
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  for. Jack's Toronto as well, and I'll
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  plug them a little bit. Great agency.
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  If you need counseling, just give them a call.
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  Yeah, great therapist. But he had asked me.
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  He said, you know, recovery is kind of boring.
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  And I said, yeah, you got to be like a certain kind of person to
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  have fun and recovery. You got to be kind of a fun
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  person, you know, like a little bit crazy.
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  Yeah. You know, like you keep that
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  kind of zany, kind of like, you know, spontaneity, you know,
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  maybe it's a bit of an immature side to us.
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  You know, you want to keep that and, and get rid of the, the
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  darker side. And he said to me, you know, I,
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  I, I go to meetings, I do a little dating.
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  I, you know, go out with people once in a while, but for the
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  most time I just go home. And, you know, it's kind of, you
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  know, I go to work. And he said, why don't you open
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  up a sober house? So I say, yeah, that's an idea.
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  And I just kind of thought about it.
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  And I had four or five people in some of the government houses
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  and I talked to them and said, would you come into a sober
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  house? I got somebody to kind of
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  finance a little bit on a charity side of things.
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  And yeah, we opened one up, I guess about 17 years ago and
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  opened up. I liked it.
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  You know, it was kind of a hangout for people.
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  We didn't have a lot of rules or anything back then.
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  It's kind of the Wild West of sober houses.
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  But everybody had a good time, did lots of activities.
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  You know, people just hung out. It was kind of a place to be
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  when you when you were feeling alone, you know, 'cause you
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  know, you have to kind of admit you're giving up when you say
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  give up drugs and alcohol, you're giving up friendships,
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  you're giving up activities. Probably 16 hours out of my day
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  was devoted to either thinking about drugs, getting drugs,
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  using drugs, coming down from drugs, thinking about drugs
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  again. It's a full.
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  Time job yeah, like full time so.
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  You give that up and you got like 16 hours a day.
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  What do I do now? Yeah, exactly.
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  Yeah. So that's where I am today.
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  These days. Amazing.
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  And it's, it's a recovery place, it's called.
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  Yeah. Now you're up to three houses 4.
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  4 houses. Yeah, we have 4 houses.
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  Amazing. Yeah, 1 main house, three-step
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  downs that for guys that don't need the the structure of a of a
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  24 hour staffing house, yeah. Yeah, that's amazing.
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  And you know, I, I want to say like you are a pivotal part even
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  today, a pivotal part of my recovery.
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  We met 10 years ago in 2015. I was 23 years old.
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  And, you know, I'll never forget Dave, my buddy Dave S, right.
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  Good old, good old Dave S He saved my life.
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  One of the many people, you as well.
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  But he said, you know, and back then, and just like you said, I
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  was at a point where, you know what?
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  My ideas aren't working anymore. Yeah.
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  My plans, my designs, my great ideas.
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  They're getting me in hotel rooms by myself.
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  They're getting me snorting coke.
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  And I'm feeling good, but I want to feel better.
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  Oh, and I just didn't get it. It.
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  I didn't make sense. I was like, why can't I stop,
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  right? Why do I, my dad always say this
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  and I always say it's like, Anthony, all you care about is
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  the next party. And it's true.
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  That's all I cared about. I didn't care about
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  relationships. I didn't care about job.
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  I just wanted the next party. And when everyone was going
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  home, why I was like, what the fuck is wrong with you guys?
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  Like let's keep, why are we stopping?
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  Let's keep going, right? So we met 10 years ago and, and
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  Dave asked my buddy Dave, he says, you know what, I recommend
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  you go into the sober house when you get back home from Minnesota
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  'cause I was in the residential treatment center in Hazleton in
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  Minnesota. And I said, you know what, fuck
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  it. I battled with it and I said
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  fine, I'll do it. And it ended up being one of the
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  best experiences of my life. And you know, this time around
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  I, I came back, you know, after I relapsed, same thing my buddy
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  Dave, you know, a different Dave now Dave R at the other
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  treatment center that I went to. You know, we recommend that you
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  do 60 days and you go to another sober house.
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  And you know, I wanted to ask you this too, is like, why is it
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  that maybe it's, I don't think it's just me, but why are we so
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  defiant? Why when someone tells us to do
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  something, the first idea in my head is like, go fuck yourself.
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  I know what's best for me. Why do you think addicts are so
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  defiant? I think it's control.
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  You know, drugs are control. It's a way of controlling our
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  feelings, our moods. When somebody tells, I think
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  human nature is just, you know, when you when you go to feed a
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  baby, you know, as soon as a baby can, it'll hit the spoon
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  out of your hand and it'll try and pick it up and shove it in
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  its mouth. You know, I think, you know,
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  human nature is such that we want to exert our independence.
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  We want to be self-sufficient in some way.
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  So when somebody suggests something that even though it
• 15:38
  might be good for us, you know, we only see the short term,
• 15:41
  while they're trying to control me, they're taking away my
• 15:43
  freedom. And, you know, oh, the half the
• 15:45
  recovery house is like a halfway house.
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  It's going to be like a Correctional Facility.
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  I'll lose all my rights. Yeah, all my rights.
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  I just came to treatment to find freedom from addiction.
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  And here I am, you know, going back into a place that's going
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  to control me. And the reality is we just
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  provide the structure, you know, for people to develop healthier
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  lifestyles, what they learned in treatment.
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  Just carry it forward, right? So I think when somebody comes
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  to a recovery house, they realize, wow, this is, you know,
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  I, I'm, I'm in the brotherhood, yeah.
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  You know, or I'm, you know, with like minded peers will say yeah.
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  And and I mean that I definitely realized that when I got there.
• 16:27
  I had I learned how to have fun in recovery.
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  And one of the another, you know, another pillar in my
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  recovery, Coulson. You remember Coulson?
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  He was a counselor. Yeah.
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  He at your recovery house. He took me to my first club
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  sober. Yeah.
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  And I was able to go to a club, which I love to do.
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  I love to dance. I love to.
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  Yeah. And I went with him and I was
• 16:45
  scared shitless. I remember that.
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  I'll never forget that feeling in my gut.
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  I'm doing something that feels a little bit wrong.
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  Yeah. And I don't have my medicine to,
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  like, socialize and to oh, everyone's looking at me and,
• 16:55
  you know, all this, it's all bullshit.
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  No one cares. Nobody.
• 16:58
  Nobody cares whether you drink or not.
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  I found that out today, Right. If somebody, I found that if
• 17:03
  somebody has a problem with you not drinking, it's probably
• 17:05
  because they have a problem themselves.
• 17:07
  That's their. Problem, yeah.
• 17:08
  Yeah, what other people think of me is none of my business,
• 17:10
  right? I'm one of my favorite quotes.
• 17:11
  Yeah, but I learned how to have fun at the recovery place, like,
• 17:14
  And I truly mean that. And today I look back and like
• 17:17
  that was a moment that I'll never forget, right.
• 17:19
  But you said brotherhood, hanging out and, you know,
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  seeing people that were were going through recovery and
• 17:26
  having fun and like minded and, you know, going to meetings and,
• 17:29
  and doing all these things together.
• 17:31
  It's just like this camaraderie that you can't get out here.
• 17:34
  You know what I mean? So I was reading a study on your
• 17:36
  website. I don't know if you'll remember
• 17:37
  this, but it said something like, you know you recommend a
• 17:40
  three month stay usually after a treatment center or without it.
• 17:44
  But why do you think that three months is?
• 17:46
  The percentages were way higher than from a study that from
• 17:49
  someone that stayed three months to someone that didn't stay
• 17:51
  three months. Why do you think that is I?
• 17:53
  Think it's somebody who who doesn't go right, Well, compared
• 17:56
  to somebody who doesn't go at all.
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  And we kind of know that three months, 90 days, you know, I
• 18:03
  don't know if it's scientifically proven or not,
• 18:07
  but the neurochemistry takes time to change.
• 18:10
  Or neurons, you know, it takes a little bit of time.
• 18:14
  You know, if I talk about cocaine long enough, you know,
• 18:17
  you're going to start salivating.
• 18:19
  You know, Pavlov's dog kind of thing, right?
• 18:21
  If I talk about, I don't know, the keg steak, you know, they're
• 18:25
  amazing strip loins or something, you get that smile on
• 18:28
  your face. Right.
• 18:29
  Yeah, it warms. My heart, yeah.
• 18:32
  It targets our, you know, it's, it goes, our memory goes to our
• 18:35
  pleasure center. Yeah, our pleasure center
• 18:37
  solicits some chemical response and we like, we enjoy that,
• 18:42
  right. So in 90 days, I think the first
• 18:45
  30 days, what we see is somebody's, you know, kind of on
• 18:49
  their best behavior. They've got that spiritual bank
• 18:52
  account, you know, they've they've gone through a 306090
• 18:55
  day treatment center. People have been saying, Oh my
• 18:58
  God, I can't believe what you shared tonight relate to it so
• 19:00
  much. That was amazing.
• 19:02
  You know, you start working out, you start eating better, you
• 19:05
  start talking to people about more real life adventures, we'll
• 19:10
  say, or, or reality and it's stimulating.
• 19:14
  It's nice to see the world through new eyes.
• 19:16
  Sometimes they call it a pink cloud.
• 19:18
  You know, we're not seeing the problems in treatment because
• 19:21
  we're kind of in that bubble. Yep, Yep.
• 19:23
  So they get out, they've got that 50,000 spiritual dollars in
• 19:27
  their bank account. They go to a couple of meetings,
• 19:30
  they get $50 a hundred. They give their number to
• 19:33
  somebody, they get a number, they get $100.
• 19:36
  But in the same token, they drive down a familiar street
• 19:40
  where they used to score, they talk to somebody, they used to
• 19:43
  score. Those withdrawals are like 5000
• 19:46
  withdrawals, a dollar withdrawals because it's
• 19:48
  familiar. It's something we know.
• 19:51
  Going to a meeting where you don't know people asking for a
• 19:54
  phone number from a stranger is difficult.
• 19:57
  So it's not a huge, you know, it's not like doing, you know,
• 20:01
  100 reps of weights that you would normally do kind of thing.
• 20:05
  So it takes more and that's where the recovery houses come
• 20:08
  in. They talk about going to
• 20:10
  different fellowships or different places, aftercare
• 20:13
  programs and things like that to get some blockers, you know, to
• 20:17
  get some strength going to put in those deposits.
• 20:21
  So about 60 days or so we start to see some of the cracks start
• 20:26
  forming in people where people are saying, well, I think I
• 20:29
  could have some near beer or I can smoke some non habit forming
• 20:33
  her because that wasn't my problem.
• 20:36
  Or maybe somebody who drinks says, you know, I could do
• 20:38
  something else and somebody who smokes weed says I can drink,
• 20:42
  you know, 'cause those weren't my problems.
• 20:44
  But we know bags and bottles, it's all the same.
• 20:46
  When it gets down to it, you know, it's all about controlling
• 20:49
  our feelings, you know, having control over ourselves.
• 20:53
  And if we're using bags and bottles to do that, we're not
• 20:58
  cultivating our authentic self. We'll say, right, you know,
• 21:01
  we're looking for something outside of myself that's going
• 21:04
  to give me the feeling that I want my natural chemistry to
• 21:08
  start to solicit, right? Facing new challenges, going to
• 21:13
  a meeting where you don't know people, facing adversity, being
• 21:18
  in the uncomfortable, you know, and getting through it.
• 21:22
  So when people get through, that's when we start seeing the
• 21:24
  cracks. People maybe they want to hang
• 21:27
  out with their old friends and although they may not have drug,
• 21:30
  alcohol problems, it triggers them and they go back to where
• 21:34
  they were. So I guess what what I'm kind of
• 21:37
  saying is that 90 days in that 60 to 90 day period, we can see
• 21:44
  where the cracks have have formed and try and you know,
• 21:48
  bridge that gap for people, whatever that is 'cause we're an
• 21:51
  abstinent based program. We're not going to turn to
• 21:53
  somebody and say, well, you know, yeah, you did heroin, so
• 21:56
  here's here's a couple of joints and washed and, you know, we
• 22:00
  know you'll get dry. So, you know, here's some Jack
• 22:02
  Daniels, but. At least you're not doing
• 22:03
  heroin, Yeah. Exactly, so we're not on really
• 22:06
  a harm reduction in the sober house and counselling.
• 22:09
  I do, you know, I do I, I use more of a harm reduction
• 22:12
  approach because people don't want to stop, you know, why stop
• 22:15
  something that they're enjoying. Problem is it stops becoming
• 22:19
  enjoyment and the problems start to mount, right?
• 22:24
  So that's why we say 90 days. Yeah, I love that.
• 22:27
  You made me think of something too, as I had to learn that the
• 22:31
  hard way with the and for me, it was well, you know, things and I
• 22:35
  always say this, but I crave chaos because the chaos
• 22:38
  distracts me from how I'm feeling and how, how I'm feeling
• 22:41
  about myself, how I'm feeling in the world.
• 22:43
  So, you know, when I relapsed this last time, it was my life
• 22:47
  was ordinarily amazing, but it was ordinary, right?
• 22:50
  And there was no excitement and right, what I've learned now is
• 22:54
  that in those moments, sometimes you just got a white knuckle it
• 22:57
  and call somebody and call mentor like you said, and get
• 23:01
  through it because you never feel the same the next day.
• 23:03
  There's so many times where I even just recently I've been
• 23:05
  like, you know what, I just need, I need to talk about this
• 23:08
  for one, because it kind of halves the problem.
• 23:10
  It takes the power away. And two, I just need to get to
• 23:13
  bed tonight. And then the next morning I wake
• 23:15
  up, I'm like, oh, fuck, I can't believe I was thinking about
• 23:16
  coke. Like, I can't believe it.
• 23:18
  I was thinking about beer, whatever.
• 23:19
  And so I relapsed this last time because I had this ADHD problem
• 23:22
  in my head. And I'm like, I'm going to fix
• 23:24
  it. I'm going to get some Vyvanse.
• 23:26
  I'm going to, you know, get a prescription.
• 23:27
  I'm going to do it properly. And just like you said, I was
• 23:30
  back doing the coke, back doing the meth I and within a matter
• 23:33
  of, you know, in a year, because I had built up so much recovery
• 23:36
  before that. But then the next time it
• 23:38
  happened, it happened a lot faster and it got a lot worse.
• 23:41
  And I was hanging out with people I didn't shouldn't be
• 23:43
  hanging out with again, right. And to your point, now it's like
• 23:47
  the risk reward for it, you know, trying the near beer.
• 23:50
  Like you said, I've been hearing a lot about this actually on
• 23:52
  social media where there's this guy that I follow that he drinks
• 23:56
  in your beers. And there was a whole debate in
• 23:58
  the comments section. And I love that I can just look
• 24:01
  at that and be like, you know what?
• 24:03
  I don't even want to go down that path anymore.
• 24:05
  It might seem so insignificant today, this 0% beer, and but
• 24:10
  what's my motive behind it? Am I trying to steal some
• 24:12
  vicarious pleasure at the bar? Or am I just trying to hide that
• 24:18
  I don't fit in feeling, so I'm going to drink this near beer
• 24:21
  and now I fit in right? And that's what it is.
• 24:23
  Yeah, very. True, yeah.
• 24:24
  Yeah, usually it's I, I want to fit in and I, I don't want
• 24:27
  people to look at me. And then, so to your point, I'm
• 24:30
  using a crutch now and then, you know, in no time I'm back where
• 24:33
  I started. But it starts with something
• 24:34
  small I think. Everybody's different, you know,
• 24:36
  There's so many roads up the mountain.
• 24:38
  Yeah. For one person, drinking a near
• 24:41
  beer takes that edge off where they're not going to go and get
• 24:43
  it a real beer, you know, which might lead to something else.
• 24:46
  You know, if they could hold it at that near beer, all the power
• 24:49
  to the, you know, if you know, a heroin addict who's using
• 24:53
  needles, his first step is I'm going to give up the needles,
• 24:56
  right? That's amazing.
• 24:58
  You know, you got to smoke a joint to get through that heroin
• 25:00
  craving. Go for it.
• 25:02
  You know, eventually, hopefully, you know, they'll find that
• 25:07
  they're going to put themselves at even lower risk for problems,
• 25:11
  for health concerns, right, by giving up more and more or, you
• 25:15
  know, letting go of more of their drugs and alcohol
• 25:19
  behavior. I.
• 25:20
  Remember when I first, you know, when I came back the second time
• 25:23
  you told me when I was there 10 years ago and I left, you
• 25:28
  thought that I wasn't going to stay sober after that.
• 25:30
  And I found that like, I, I had no idea, right.
• 25:33
  So my question to you is, and I've always wondered this, when
• 25:36
  people come in to your sober house, do you, do you know
• 25:39
  whether they're going to make it or not or what's your kind of
• 25:42
  thought around that? That's such an interesting
• 25:44
  question because I worked at at Humber Hospital, they're
• 25:49
  outpatient program for about 10 years.
• 25:51
  And you know what, I'd see guys that struggle and they're
• 25:55
  questioning everything and I think, oh man, this guy's going
• 25:57
  to get out. He's not going to have a chance,
• 26:01
  right? And I see people that they come
• 26:02
  in and they're they believe and they have faith and they walk on
• 26:07
  water and people are asking for their advice.
• 26:09
  They're. Leading, yeah.
• 26:11
  They're the first guy out the door.
• 26:12
  You know, they think they got it all and they got it, you know,
• 26:15
  they got things under so, so much control that they could use
• 26:19
  again, you know, and not fall into the same pattern.
• 26:23
  And the guys that are struggling, the the men and
• 26:25
  women that struggle, I think they're they're, they're finding
• 26:28
  where does this fit in my life? You know, they're asking those
• 26:31
  questions because they really want to know if this jacket's
• 26:35
  going to fit when I leave here, you know, and I think with you,
• 26:41
  I, I didn't have the strong conviction.
• 26:45
  I didn't feel your conviction for recovery.
• 26:49
  I wasn't getting it for. And you listen, we're all human,
• 26:52
  you know, but man, you, you went on a RIP and a tear.
• 26:56
  You were one of the guys. If I send somebody somewhere, I
• 26:59
  say, hey, look, look for Anthony, you know, and, and I
• 27:02
  knew that they were going to get the goods on recovery.
• 27:04
  It wasn't going to be and let's go to the strip joint tonight.
• 27:08
  And you know, we'll pick up, you know, we'll pick up something on
• 27:11
  the way. They're gonna get like, hey,
• 27:14
  this is how you do recover. You wanna do it, This is how you
• 27:16
  do it. You know, I think you had like
• 27:18
  what I had 6-7 years I had. Seven years.
• 27:20
  Yeah. Yeah, I was a long time man.
• 27:23
  You. Grow up a lot during the best
• 27:25
  years. Of my life, man, yeah, I had
• 27:26
  best years of my life honestly. And you know, I'm close to
• 27:29
  feeling like that again, you know, and I it's funny because
• 27:33
  in treatment, you know, my wife Rebecca, they were telling you
• 27:37
  know what she was she'd be telling the therapist when am I
• 27:40
  going to get Anthony version? You know one point O back right?
• 27:44
  When am I going to get the sober Anthony back right.
• 27:46
  And they would all say the same thing as like, you're not going
• 27:48
  to get one point O you're going to get, yeah, you're going to
• 27:51
  get now 2 point O. And you?
• 27:53
  You might not like him. You might, You know what I mean?
• 27:55
  But it's he's going to be different because experiences
• 27:57
  have changed. I've banged my head a few more
• 27:59
  times. I've scrape my knee a few more
• 28:01
  times. Yeah, and I found a new, you
• 28:03
  know, spirituality again, where it involves me waking up every
• 28:08
  morning and, you know, I pray, but it's it's also too I'm I
• 28:11
  also remind myself every morning now that I'm an alcoholic, I'm
• 28:15
  an addict. And you know, I can't control
• 28:19
  the way I feel with outside substances without going on
• 28:23
  some, you know, tear, right. And it involves that.
• 28:27
  How How do you stay sober today? What?
• 28:31
  What are some key things in your life you know that help you?
• 28:34
  That's a good question. I I think about that once in a
• 28:37
  while, like why me? Why, you know, why am I, you
• 28:42
  know, blessed that I don't have like huge cravings and you know,
• 28:47
  I have cravings for other things.
• 28:48
  I think addiction is fluid, fluid, you know, like food has
• 28:53
  become, you know, my relapse and you know, I'm I'm kind of a food
• 28:58
  porn addict, you know, you know, I look in the fridge.
• 29:03
  What's going on? Is there is there new Netflix
• 29:05
  playing in there today? Did I get new food and you're?
• 29:08
  Expecting it to just show up. Yeah, I do that all the time.
• 29:11
  You know, so I call it food porn, you know, because it's
• 29:14
  exciting, you know, there's an excitement to it's a.
• 29:17
  Novelty, right? Yeah.
• 29:18
  It's, you know, it's, it's a bad habit.
• 29:22
  I can say that I'm constantly trying to work on.
• 29:28
  You know, sometimes I have more success than other times.
• 29:34
  I think, you know, at some point I just lost that desire to use.
• 29:41
  It wasn't, I turned the corner, you know, maybe it was a year,
• 29:45
  2-3 years. And I just thought my life is,
• 29:49
  you know, I'm blessed, you know, I've met, I've met great people
• 29:53
  in my life. I was blessed with children.
• 29:56
  I was able to be the son that my parents wanted me to be.
• 30:01
  My, my sister who I tormented during my drug use days, you
• 30:06
  know, came back into my life in a much more, for me anyway, much
• 30:12
  more positive relationship. I just, yeah, I guess I found
• 30:18
  the depths of my relationships, the quality of them were so much
• 30:22
  better, you know, and, and, you know, meeting people like
• 30:27
  yourself, you know, it's helping people who are struggling and
• 30:33
  then watching them turn the corner where they lose that
• 30:36
  desire. So for me, I guess, you know,
• 30:40
  just I, I have, you know, I, I Gorski model of recovery was
• 30:45
  create relapse prevention planning.
• 30:49
  You know, these are the 32 signs of relapse.
• 30:51
  And when I first read them I thought, man, I got like 30 of
• 30:54
  these. Signs of relapse.
• 30:55
  You know what's going on, but I think it came down to a
• 31:00
  different viewpoint, which was more of a craving intervention
• 31:05
  plan, living a more balanced lifestyle, getting out a little
• 31:09
  bit more, having some fun, balancing it with work.
• 31:14
  I came up with a philosophy for my life, which was number one,
• 31:19
  help others #2 have fun and #3 gain a reward.
• 31:24
  And when those three are in balance, you know, there's a
• 31:27
  certain amount of focus on helping others.
• 31:29
  If I don't help enough people and I kind of get a little
• 31:33
  selfish, you know, like I'm not there for others.
• 31:37
  If I help too many people, I kind of figure who's there for
• 31:39
  me. And if I put that first, you
• 31:43
  know, I, I'm out of self, I get out of myself.
• 31:46
  Like I'm not, you know, want everything for me.
• 31:50
  I think having children help me with that.
• 31:53
  You know, my son's going to get the bigger stake tonight or one
• 31:56
  of my kids, you know, that kind of thing.
• 31:58
  The other two were having fun. If I don't have enough fun, I'm
• 32:04
  like, what's life about? If I have too much fun, people
• 32:06
  don't take me seriously. And gaining a reward and
• 32:10
  realizing that rewards aren't always monetary.
• 32:13
  Rewards come in. So, you know, watching you grow,
• 32:17
  having a mother say to me, thank you for giving me my son back,
• 32:22
  you know, having my parents tell me how proud they are of me, you
• 32:25
  know, But I think it's balance and in the right order for me,
• 32:31
  you know. But helping others, I think is
• 32:33
  always, I think watching somebody, you know, climb the
• 32:37
  mountain is, you know, knowing that you had a hand in it is, is
• 32:41
  a beautiful, you know, testimony to your life.
• 32:44
  Yeah, totally. Yeah, I think, and one of the
• 32:46
  great things that you do, Jay, is, you know, people relapse all
• 32:50
  the time, right? It's a huge part of or it
• 32:52
  doesn't have to be, but it's a part of recovery.
• 32:54
  It can be a part of recovery. And one of the great things that
• 32:57
  I admire about you is you give them a chance, You give them
• 32:59
  another chance, right? And I've seen you do it time and
• 33:02
  time again. And because you don't know when
• 33:04
  that person's going to figure it out, right?
• 33:05
  It might not be their time, but I've seen you do it so many
• 33:08
  times. And yeah, like that's that's
• 33:11
  kind of the key here is you don't turn your back on them
• 33:14
  just because they inconvenienced you or they made a mistake
• 33:17
  because we were there at one point, right?
• 33:20
  What do you think? The number one reason people go
• 33:24
  out is people relapse, people fail in recovery.
• 33:27
  Like what do you think? I think it's multifaceted.
• 33:30
  You know, people aren't having a good time, they're not enjoying
• 33:33
  themselves. They haven't found meaning and
• 33:35
  purpose in their life. They haven't found a community
• 33:38
  that they're a part of. There might be mental health
• 33:41
  issues. You don't depression, anxiety,
• 33:45
  possibly thought disorders could be finances, you know, financial
• 33:51
  obligations that they can't meet.
• 33:53
  And the stressors are overwhelming for them.
• 33:56
  They just want to get a little bit of relief.
• 33:58
  Every time I relapsed on cigarettes, it's I just want to
• 34:01
  drag, you know, I just want to drag.
• 34:04
  And I have to say to myself, well, you don't smoke
• 34:07
  cigarettes, so why do you want to drag?
• 34:09
  And I say, what's the driver? What's the feeling under that
• 34:13
  drag? Because I know I'll have a drag
• 34:15
  and I'll be buying a carton within a week and it'll be four
• 34:19
  or five years before I get another opportunity to quit when
• 34:22
  I get that motivation and the stars align.
• 34:26
  So I think if we can ask ourselves, you know, what's
• 34:28
  driving this bus today, Why do I want to use right?
• 34:32
  We can probably come up with probably about 70% of the
• 34:35
  answer. You know, like we say in
• 34:37
  recovery, I'm hungry, angry, lonely, tired, bored.
• 34:41
  You know, if I can figure out OK, I'm hungry, go eat
• 34:43
  something, I'm tired, go sleep, I'm bored, go do something and.
• 34:47
  Just get through it, right? Get through it till tomorrow.
• 34:49
  I love that. What do you think?
• 34:53
  So family's a big part of addiction, you know, family, we
• 34:56
  drag them through the mud a lot. What do you think the difference
• 34:59
  between kind of and I get this question a lot from from family,
• 35:03
  what's the difference between enabling and supporting an
• 35:06
  addict? You know, where's that line?
• 35:08
  Yeah. That's a great point because
• 35:10
  addiction, you know, just the very nature of, of somebody
• 35:14
  who's stuck in dependency issues.
• 35:17
  Every cell in their body is geared towards getting what they
• 35:19
  want at all cost. And for a family member, 10% of
• 35:25
  their, you know, you know, psyche is geared towards, you
• 35:30
  know, catching somebody. 90% is geared towards supporting
• 35:34
  somebody. You know, we want our kids to
• 35:36
  be, you know, wonderful. We want them to be happy.
• 35:39
  We want them to be successful. We want our, our partners, our,
• 35:43
  our associates at work, our playmates, you know, we, we, we
• 35:47
  want success. That's the, you know, the the
• 35:50
  hallmark of of life, I think is to be successful, whatever that
• 35:55
  that means. So I think, you know, the
• 35:57
  difference is that, you know, enabling is giving somebody the
• 36:02
  opportunities to continue that lifestyle against our better
• 36:07
  nature, against our thoughts that this is wrong.
• 36:10
  I like that, right? Where support looks more like,
• 36:14
  if you take a step forward, I'm going to take a step forward
• 36:17
  with you. You know, I can't be there
• 36:19
  pushing you forward. I can't be there pulling you
• 36:21
  forward. But when you make that decision
• 36:23
  that you want to make a life change, and that's in alignment
• 36:27
  with my morals and values, right?
• 36:31
  I can support that. I'm going.
• 36:32
  To be there with you. Yeah.
• 36:34
  Yeah. I love that.
• 36:35
  Wow. I've never heard anyone say it
• 36:37
  like that. That's nice.
• 36:38
  Yeah. Because I think a lot of people
• 36:39
  struggle with that, right? Sure.
• 36:41
  I do you know what's enabling in the recovery house?
• 36:44
  How many chances do you give somebody before you say, well,
• 36:48
  you know, the recovery house isn't helping, you know, they're
• 36:51
  just, you know, eroding, you know, they're unhappy and, you
• 36:57
  know, refer them somewhere else. It gets a different kind of help
• 37:00
  for them. Look at the opportunities that
• 37:03
  are out there, the resources and and, you know, figure it out.
• 37:06
  And I think that's, that's one of the things that some, you
• 37:13
  know, it's always be reinventing ourselves, you know, at the
• 37:17
  recovery place or treatment centers.
• 37:19
  What could we introduce that's new, different, exciting,
• 37:23
  adventurous that'll help somebody move them forward,
• 37:27
  right? Yeah, it's always new.
• 37:29
  Advances in addiction, I think, Yeah.
• 37:31
  So the addict alcoholic person struggling with mental health
• 37:36
  right now, you know that comes into your house is shaking or
• 37:40
  even you see them on the street, on the street.
• 37:43
  What do you say to that person? Usually interesting.
• 37:50
  I never asked somebody if they're using, if I see somebody
• 37:52
  who I knew in the past, I, I never asked them.
• 37:55
  I'd just say how you making out these days, you know, and if you
• 37:58
  know, they they don't hear judgement and opinion in your
• 38:02
  voice, they might tell you, you know, and then you can open it
• 38:06
  up to wow, it sounds tough for, you know, anything I can help
• 38:11
  you with, you know, is there something that I can support you
• 38:14
  around? Because I think for me, you
• 38:18
  know, that judgement, you know, I was judging myself.
• 38:20
  I was so ashamed of where I'd gotten myself that it was so
• 38:25
  hard to ask for help because that emitting defeat and then
• 38:29
  not knowing if the help is going to be there, they going to
• 38:31
  ridicule you or they going to, you know, look down on you.
• 38:36
  So I think I try to, you know, treat people with kindness and
• 38:41
  respect. Sometimes I lose it, you know,
• 38:45
  and that's also part of my humorous side, yeah.
• 38:48
  I love. It you know, I have a dark sense
• 38:51
  of humor that comes out at times and you know, somebody tells you
• 38:55
  something. You just got to shake your head.
• 38:57
  Are you actually telling me this?
• 39:00
  You know, you sat on a bag of cocaine on the TTC really.
• 39:04
  And that's why you're positive for GOAT like it really, that's
• 39:07
  what you're saying to me. If if it's important for you,
• 39:10
  for me to believe it, I'll believe it.
• 39:15
  You're shaking your head and your brow is furrowed, you know,
• 39:19
  but I think giving people opportunity until you burn out,
• 39:23
  you know, and, and you got to admit, you know, at some point
• 39:27
  you, you know, we're going to get burnt out, you know, and
• 39:30
  we've tried to help somebody so often that maybe it has become
• 39:34
  enabling and we don't see it. That's why I love the staff in
• 39:37
  my house. And they say, Jay, what are you
• 39:39
  doing? You know, like this guy doesn't
• 39:41
  need us. You know, he wants to.
• 39:43
  He's got his own adventures to live that don't call for
• 39:46
  sobriety. So you got to let it go.
• 39:49
  Yeah. And I do, you know, Yeah.
• 39:51
  But. It's tough, but it's tough.
• 39:53
  You got a. Heart for people, yeah.
• 39:54
  Totally. Yeah.
• 39:55
  And it's listening to those people sometimes where you're
• 39:58
  like, yeah, you're seeing it from a different perspective,
• 40:00
  right? Dave Esser said that many times
• 40:02
  to me, you know? Yeah.
• 40:04
  Got to let go. Yeah, I.
• 40:05
  Love it. OK, well, thanks, Jay.
• 40:07
  I you know what? I had a great time.
• 40:09
  I love you so much, buddy. Thanks for coming down.
• 40:12
  I I look forward to our many more.
• 40:15
  You know, hopefully you can have you on again with Caleb and
• 40:17
  yeah. That'd be fun.
• 40:18
  Yeah. Yeah, I really appreciate.
• 40:20
  It but I I got a lot out of this so.
• 40:21
  Thanks, Anthony. Yeah, thanks for having me down.
• 40:24
  Thanks. For listening, please help us
• 40:25
  grow the channel and like, share and subscribe for more content.
• 40:29
  The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for
• 40:32
  informational and motivational purposes only.
• 40:35
  This content is not a substitute for professional medical advice,
• 40:38
  addiction treatment or therapy therapy.
• 40:40
  If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction,
• 40:43
  please consult A licensed physician, addiction specialist,
• 40:46
  or mental health professional. You are no longer alone.