Latest / Project Podcast / Launching a career in the space sector, with the UK Space Agency’s Martina Blake

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Launching a career in the space sector, with the UK Space Agency’s Martina Blake · Project Podcast

• 0:09
  Welcome to the APM Podcast, brought to you by The Chartered
• 0:11
  Body for the Project profession. This episode is part of our
• 0:16
  series of Senior Leader interviews hosted by APM Chief
• 0:19
  Executive Professor Adam Bodison.
• 0:22
  At this time, Adam is speaking to Martina Blake of the UK Space
• 0:25
  Agency. Martina heads up the agency's
• 0:28
  Office for Projects and Programme Management, which she
• 0:31
  set up in November 2021. She tells Adam about the
• 0:35
  importance of global collaboration in the space
• 0:38
  sector and the need to work to international project delivery
• 0:41
  standards when acting in partnership with NASA, the
• 0:44
  European Space Agency and others.
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  Martina also explains that you don't have to be an astronaut or
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  scientist to work in the space sector.
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  There is a huge variety of roles in project delivery and beyond.
• 0:57
  So listen on to here, why there's never been a better time
• 1:00
  to launch a career in the space sector, and how projects that
• 1:03
  are out of this world deliver benefits down on Earth too.
• 1:10
  Welcome Martina to the APM Podcast.
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  It's great to have you here today and I wonder if to start
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  with you could tell us a little bit about your career journey
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  and how you came to enter the project profession.
• 1:22
  So in terms of my career and and entering the profession, I've
• 1:25
  been in government now for for a number of years.
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  I started out actually in the operational delivery profession
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  but I was always the one kind of in the office who wanted to go
• 1:34
  off and volunteer go off in support of the areas of the
• 1:38
  business. See how other parts of
• 1:39
  government worked. In one of those areas was
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  project delivery. I was often called upon to be a
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  subject matter expert on various projects across government and
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  for me it was really great being involved in projects at the
• 1:52
  start rather than at the operational end which is which
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  is what I've been used to. So getting involved from a
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  almost from a volunteer perspective that.
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  That time really led me to move full-time into the product
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  delivery profession, and I've been in the profession now for
• 2:09
  15 years. Yeah, thank you.
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  And and we hear that a lot actually professionals who maybe
• 2:15
  didn't start their career saying, you know, I'd like to be
• 2:18
  UH project leader, but look, look one day what's going on and
• 2:21
  find that they are absolutely smack bang in the middle of the
• 2:24
  project profession. So I don't think you're alone in
• 2:27
  in that trajectory. So, So look, I mean you you your
• 2:30
  role sounds really exciting. Head of the office for Project
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  and Programme Management at the UK Space Agency, that sounds
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  super exciting. So what does that role involved
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  and and when did you take that role up?
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  I started in the UK Space Agency in January 2021 and so I've been
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  here now for just over 2 1/2 years.
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  I set up the office for Project and Programme Management in
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  November 2021 and that was really in the response to the
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  space agency pretty much looking at transferring to a delivery
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  agency rather than a policy department.
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  And so that offers a project and programme management.
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  It sits alongside our Office of the Chief Engineer and our
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  Office of Regulations. So you know, and if you can
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  imagine in terms of, you know, delivery space projects and
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  programmes is it's a little different to how we, let's say,
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  deliver government infrastructure programmes or
• 3:22
  transformation programmes, so. Whilst in the space sector we we
• 3:25
  use the same principles, actually space projects have
• 3:29
  different life cycles, they have different terminology as well,
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  that's an use. But then of course if you add in
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  the mix the international element, so things like you
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  know, project delivery standards, ways of working
• 3:42
  cultures and ethics, they they can be very different to how we
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  operate the project, very professional here in the UK.
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  So my team, the Office of Project for Management, we
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  provide that technical expertise and best practise across the UK
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  Space Agency to help them deliver projects and programmes.
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  So we use both the UK Government Functional standard, but we also
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  use the. International project delivery
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  standards, so that those used by the likes of NASA and the
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  European Space Agency as well. So as well as the delivery, we
• 4:11
  actually also heavily focus on investing in our people and
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  that's providing development opportunities, career
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  opportunities as well to help them progress in their careers
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  in the project and professional in the UK Space Agency.
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  Yeah, that's really interesting. And particularly the the
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  international point there. I mean, do you find there's a
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  big difference between standards, I suppose UK
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  standards for the project profession in a broad sense and
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  then international standards which are kind of specific to
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  the space sector? Is there, is there a lot of
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  overlap between them? Are they quite distinct?
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  There was definitely overlap and I think it's, you know, if you
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  take NASA for example, you know have a lot of different centres
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  themselves and in each of their own centres can operate slightly
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  differently. They certainly have different
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  cultures and and you know ways of working.
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  And then you know if you look at the UK, we operate lots of
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  different types of of projects and programmes whether that's in
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  the public sector or the private sector.
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  So for HE with the UK Space Agency is definitely just about
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  understanding how the likes of the NASA, European Space Agency,
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  the DLR which is the German space agency.
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  You know, just to really understanding how they all
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  operate and making sure that we work when we work in partnership
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  with them that we actually all understand.
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  How how each of us work so so you know if you're in a let's
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  say a programme board with with NASA or ESA and you're talking
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  about risk management. You want to make sure that what
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  you're talking about you understand what NASA mean
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  because you know risk management to to 1 space agency could be
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  slightly different terminology to another and you know another
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  good example is is gate review. So here in the UK and we have
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  our gate reviews in order to progress through the next stage
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  of a project or programme. If you take the European Space
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  Agency, they they use phases, so you know phase A as an example,
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  phase B so, so it's just about understanding different elements
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  of of standards and kind of the frameworks and principles and.
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  And how we use those and how we interact with each other to make
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  sure that we understand that role on the same page if we're
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  delivering a multi £1,000,000 project.
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  That makes sense and it's obviously, it's obviously an
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  expensive mistake if it's not all aligned, isn't it?
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  So yeah, it makes it makes good sense and so So what you're
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  describing it it goes beyond terminology.
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  It's all it's about methodologies, principles.
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  Exactly. That that really good interplay
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  between the different agencies. So one of the things when I
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  think about space, you know working in the space sector, it
• 6:34
  sounds like really exclusive, but obviously you're there and
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  lots of other people are there in this sector.
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  Is it that far away from a career perspective for people?
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  Is it that exclusive in How do you get into the space sector?
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  I I would say it's definitely not exclusive.
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  Often people think of working in the space sector as you either
• 6:54
  need to be an astronaut or a scientist, but actually the
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  roles within the space sector are hugely diverse.
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  You know, if you wanted to be a space lawyer, for example
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  medical professional work and HR.
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  Work in a communication role. You know there's so many
• 7:08
  different roles out there that you can actually be involved in,
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  in the space sector. You don't have to be an
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  astronaut, you kind if you want to put as much more out there.
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  You know we have a lot of people in in certainly in government as
• 7:20
  well who work in the space sector around the policy
• 7:23
  profession. There's a lot of roles in
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  finance of course as well because the space sectors are
• 7:26
  huge area of investment globally.
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  So and of course you've got roles in project and programme
• 7:33
  management. And actually across the UK we
• 7:36
  currently employ ranked 49,000 people in the space sector and
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  we only have around sort of 300 of the space agency itself.
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  So there are a lot more out there.
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  Who work in the space sector and there are thousands more as well
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  as supply chains. So there are definitely
• 7:50
  opportunities out there. If you want thinking of a career
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  in the space sector, don't be put off by thinking you need to
• 7:56
  be a scientist or you need to be an astronaut.
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  There's much more you can do. Whilst we're tackling
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  misconceptions, I suppose the other thing, and we've seen this
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  in the news a lot recently as people think of programmes and
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  projects that that that might be part of the UK Space Agency and
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  we think of moon landings. You know we've just seen the the
• 8:14
  the successful Indian moon landing recently, the
• 8:16
  unsuccessful Russian attempt as well that that's very high
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  profile, those types of things. We've seen some of the kind of
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  Mars missions and stuff. Are they the only types of
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  projects and programmes that the the space agency does have A lot
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  of other things going on as well that maybe people might not know
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  about and be aware of? You know we have, we have a lot
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  of different types of projects and programmes.
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  Our current portfolio consist of eight what we call priority
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  programmes. So those are the ones that are
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  going to deliver the UK space agencies value proposition.
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  So the ones that will catalyse investment for us, bringing that
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  investment to the UK and generate contracts for the UK
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  space sector. We have projects and programmes
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  that will ultimately deliver missions and capabilities.
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  So things that will support in terms of earth observation for
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  example or things like climate change.
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  And we also, we have areas that champion the power of space if
• 9:07
  you like, to, to inspire people, support the next generation as
• 9:11
  well to come into the space sector.
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  I think you mentioned earlier, Martina, that the project and
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  programme profession within the UK Space Agency is relatively
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  new. I wonder if you might say more
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  about how you would rate the maturity and professionalisation
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  of that community and and how does that compare to, say, other
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  government departments and government agencies more
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  broadly? Yeah.
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  And I mean if you know, if you take take a look at the
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  profession both in you know, the the private sector and public
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  sector actually I think particularly with the growth of
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  things like AI and you know the, the profession is always mature
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  and there are always new initiatives, new technologies
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  that you need to adapt to it. So I think certainly in the
• 9:52
  space agency we've matured a lot over the last 18 months.
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  There's definitely still more to do.
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  And you know we're working very closely with the likes of the
• 10:01
  Infrastructure Projects Authority and their Government
• 10:04
  Projects Academy. And you know, as part of that we
• 10:07
  will begin our formal accreditation for our project
• 10:11
  delivery professionals here in the UK Space Agency.
• 10:14
  That starts in September and that, you know, formal
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  accreditation that is very much about maturing and
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  professionalisation of the project delivery community, not
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  just in the UK Space Agency but that's actually across
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  government in all departments. They're gonna be people
• 10:30
  listening to this conversation who are project professionals in
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  other sectors. Uh, I don't know, maybe the oil
• 10:36
  and gas sector or IT or whatever.
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  And then, you know, there might have listened to this and
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  thought, you know what? I really fancy being a project
• 10:43
  professional in the space sector.
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  Is it realistic for them to kind of just transfer from a project
• 10:49
  role in one sector to another? What kind of things might they
• 10:52
  need to think about? We have a lot of people in the
• 10:56
  space agency and and and predatory roles who could more
• 10:59
  different backgrounds and and different types of projects and
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  and programmes. We do have some from science
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  backgrounds, many of ours though from other parts of government
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  for example, you know who are already part of the government's
• 11:10
  project every profession. But we do have a lot back coming
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  externally as well from other sectors and it's simply about,
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  you know, being able to transfer those.
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  Project and programme delivery skills that you have to work on
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  a different type of project and programme, you know, and I would
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  always encourage anyone who you know, who is interested in
• 11:27
  working in the space agency or in the space sector more broadly
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  to apply because there are definitely opportunities to
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  transfer. You know, your skills.
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  For me, you know, I've worked in many different types of projects
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  and programmes from let's say Defence, transformation, IT, HR,
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  you know, welfare reform, various different types of
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  projects and programmes. So when I've gone into all of
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  those, I've never really been, let's say a subject matter
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  expert for those, and I certainly wasn't when I came to
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  the UK Space Agency, but it is very much about taking that
• 11:57
  expertise. And knowledge and applying that
• 11:59
  to a different subject matter. So, so I was, I was definitely
• 12:02
  always interested in the space sector.
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  I mean, gosh, when when I was a very young child, I always
• 12:07
  wanted to travel to the moon, you know, I even had a really
• 12:10
  cool pair of moon boots, but unfortunately, I didn't, didn't,
• 12:13
  didn't, didn't quite that career, didn't quite happen.
• 12:17
  OK, well, never say never. You might.
• 12:19
  Be able to. Get those roots out.
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  Again. But there might also be people
• 12:25
  as well, I suppose, who are not project professionals yet who
• 12:28
  are thinking of entering the profession, you know, they might
• 12:31
  want to come and enter the space agency as well.
• 12:33
  Um, uh, where do you actually recruit from?
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  So the kind of standard kind of go to places to kind of to
• 12:41
  secure that healthy pipeline because I know everybody, all
• 12:43
  these project delivery units everywhere are really struggling
• 12:47
  to get good people and there's not enough volume of them out
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  there. So where do, where do, where do
• 12:52
  your people come from? Where do you recruit?
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  From yeah, I mean we we recruit from internally cross government
• 12:58
  but also externally. So, so our our vacancies
• 13:01
  specifically for the space. Are advertised on civil service
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  jobs. Whether you're already in
• 13:06
  government or externally working elsewhere, you will be able to
• 13:09
  to see those and and apply, you know, across the space sector
• 13:13
  more generally, you know, if you look on.
• 13:15
  Any kind of search on on on Google you'll you'll see a huge
• 13:18
  amount of of of roles coming up. Some of those of course are in
• 13:21
  projects and programmes as well but for specific companies.
• 13:25
  Some of them of course like I say are for the UK Space Agency
• 13:28
  and we work very, very closely with the Infrastructure Projects
• 13:31
  Authority to make sure that we attract and develop those
• 13:34
  project delivery professionals. Whether that's someone who's
• 13:36
  experienced or someone who's new and has recently joined the the
• 13:40
  profession. And of course you also in
• 13:41
  government we have the productivity faster which is you
• 13:44
  know it's always oversubscribed every year.
• 13:46
  It's a great opportunity to you know get get in at the start and
• 13:50
  get those opportunities. Sorry for development and
• 13:52
  training in specific. Project and programme delivery.
• 13:56
  So there's, you know, whether you're new to the professional
• 14:00
  or experience, there's a there's a whole host of opportunities
• 14:02
  across government to be part of the project delivery profession.
• 14:08
  Excellent. So there's no excuses here for
• 14:10
  anybody who wants to to join the UK Space Agency.
• 14:13
  There are many ways in, but um, let's look, let's talk about the
• 14:16
  people that you've already got. You've obviously got a growing
• 14:19
  body of project professionals within the UK Space Agency.
• 14:23
  What's the approach taken to kind of training and development
• 14:27
  of those project professionals and you know, career development
• 14:30
  piece? I'm always, of course,
• 14:31
  championing the chartered project professional status.
• 14:35
  Is that part of the picture and what else do you do?
• 14:38
  Yeah, absolutely. So I mean I myself, I'm, I'm,
• 14:40
  I'm chartered. So yeah, the, you know, the
• 14:43
  office of Project Programme Management and of course the
• 14:45
  space agency more generally, we we do provide.
• 14:47
  Advice on on training and and developing those that own
• 14:51
  project roles or those who would actually like to be in a project
• 14:54
  role in the in the future as well.
• 14:55
  So whether that's getting chartered or various other
• 14:58
  projects of requalifications, we also have a very comprehensive
• 15:02
  project delivery capability offer.
• 15:04
  Even the space agency which my team have put together, you know
• 15:08
  that covers both the technical training that you might want to
• 15:11
  do, development opportunities, mentoring for example,
• 15:14
  leadership development, so, so there's a whole host of
• 15:16
  opportunities available. We're APM, the only chartered
• 15:22
  membership organisation for the project profession.
• 15:25
  When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and
• 15:28
  support you need to make an impact, delivering better
• 15:31
  projects with better outcomes. Plus, you'll access exclusive
• 15:34
  training and benefits to support your ongoing career development.
• 15:38
  Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting
• 15:41
  apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed,
• 15:46
  society benefits. One of the things we often say
• 15:53
  at a PM, in fact, it's our strap line, is because when projects
• 15:56
  succeed, society benefits. And the reason we kind of have
• 16:01
  that as our strapline is because, you know, people are
• 16:03
  saying, yeah, but why? You know, why should we be
• 16:05
  interested in project management?
• 16:06
  You know, why should leaders be interested in it?
• 16:08
  You know, why should government be interested in it?
• 16:10
  And it's all because of that societal benefit piece.
• 16:13
  And when it comes to space projects, I wonder if you might,
• 16:16
  you know, share your own reflections about how you think
• 16:20
  space projects specifically could benefit society either
• 16:24
  either they're already doing it now or might do in the future.
• 16:27
  Yeah, I mean, yeah, I I could talk about this one for a very
• 16:30
  long time. So there's there's definitely a
• 16:32
  lot of advantages to actually doing space projects in
• 16:35
  programmes. You know and if you look at you
• 16:37
  know space itself it's it's kind of it's woven into everyday
• 16:40
  life. So you we've got satellites that
• 16:42
  predict the weather, they keep businesses connected and and
• 16:46
  products moving around the globe.
• 16:48
  They help us to monitor things like ocean health and urban
• 16:51
  growth. So we have a vast range of
• 16:53
  projects and programmes actually in the space sector that benefit
• 16:55
  both our people and our planet. You know, the UK as well.
• 16:59
  The UK itself is is already a world leader in things like
• 17:02
  Earth observation tools, technologies and data and I
• 17:05
  mentioned earlier. But our Earth observation
• 17:09
  programme, and you know, that really is about monitoring
• 17:14
  climate change, protecting our environment, our people.
• 17:18
  Been able to respond to humanitarian disasters and and
• 17:22
  also provide that greater understanding really of the the
• 17:24
  global, you know, earth system from things like.
• 17:28
  Temperature change in the oceans or to polar ice melt and there's
• 17:30
  there's no better place to to actually monitor that from than
• 17:34
  from from space itself and from the satellites that are actually
• 17:37
  up there in space. And we actually have around 750
• 17:40
  UK licenced satellites circling the earth.
• 17:44
  And you know they'll support a huge amount of of of activity
• 17:48
  that is vital to our daily lives and in our economy.
• 17:52
  So whether that's how we connect with each other across the globe
• 17:56
  and like I say how we monitor our environment and how we also
• 17:59
  protect our critical infrastructure as well.
• 18:01
  So you know we we a lot of those satellites, you know of course
• 18:04
  the the support us on a daily basis but they also support our
• 18:07
  our armed forces and support with you know monitoring natural
• 18:12
  disasters as well floods, wildfires things like that.
• 18:15
  And then you've got, you know, if you look at things like fire,
• 18:17
  heat, 5G connectivity, having those satellites and space
• 18:20
  actually helps to provide that Internet and.
• 18:23
  Connectivity to to hard to reach areas which which we, you know
• 18:27
  we've over the years has has really struggled.
• 18:29
  So I think you know if you look at the space sector across the
• 18:33
  UK itself, you know that's generated, let's say I think
• 18:36
  it's around 17 1/2 billion pounds actually you know 2021 we
• 18:39
  expect that to increase. So if you look at it from a
• 18:42
  environmental and sort of societal perspective, there's a
• 18:45
  huge amount of of benefits that doing space project and
• 18:49
  programme programmes actually brings to us here on Earth.
• 18:53
  This conversation wouldn't be complete at all if we didn't
• 18:56
  mention AI because everybody's talking about AI at the moment.
• 18:59
  Everywhere I go, I suppose there might be a perception out there
• 19:02
  and again it might be a misconception like some of the
• 19:04
  things we talked about earlier on that, you know, if it's the
• 19:07
  space sector, it's absolutely at the cutting edge of all
• 19:10
  technologies and and and everything else.
• 19:13
  So I suppose I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the UK
• 19:17
  Space Agency's approach to AI and digitalization more broadly.
• 19:22
  Is that something that is really advanced or are you on the same
• 19:26
  journey as everybody else and and and how does that interplay
• 19:29
  with with this classic project thing?
• 19:32
  Have kind of lessons learned? Lessons applied?
• 19:34
  Are you learning the lessons from other areas to apply AI in
• 19:38
  your sector, or should we all be learning from uh from you?
• 19:42
  We have a fantastic digital team here in the UK Space Agency and
• 19:45
  that is certainly you know areas that they are looking at in
• 19:47
  terms of using things like a I and and and and data to to help
• 19:52
  you know look at what what we can deliver in the future.
• 19:55
  You know in terms of specific AI let's say tools and and
• 20:00
  technology that that is that is out there.
• 20:03
  That is an area actually that my team again we are looking at for
• 20:06
  the profession. So the project delivery
• 20:07
  profession. So it is you know because the
• 20:10
  profession in the space agencies is relatively new and like I say
• 20:13
  around top 13 months. There are areas that we still
• 20:18
  need to focus on. Of course I is is one of them,
• 20:20
  but. Do have or are you part of our
• 20:22
  team who are looking at that and and and see where we invest And
• 20:26
  of course because if you take things like you know the the
• 20:29
  definitely areas in the project profession that let's say more
• 20:32
  be probably more easy to implement AI.
• 20:35
  So things like you know if you take risk management as an
• 20:37
  example of scheduling where you know that actually the benefits
• 20:41
  of AI are probably where you can have have some technology that
• 20:44
  will you know do that automatically for you whether
• 20:47
  that's going away and producing the schedule or supporting with
• 20:50
  risk management. And of course that would free up
• 20:52
  those resources to do perhaps more strategic work within the
• 20:55
  space agency or or or across government for example.
• 20:58
  So I think certainly on the the A, I you know if you look in the
• 21:02
  in the space agency that is something that we are looking at
• 21:05
  in terms of across the space sector more generally.
• 21:07
  There were definitely projects and programmes out there already
• 21:10
  that use AI and certainly will continue to grow as the AI and
• 21:16
  community and and and that element increases and and
• 21:19
  improves in terms of the technology but also the
• 21:21
  accessibility to that technology as well and becomes more readily
• 21:25
  available. I wanted to kind of bring it
• 21:28
  back to people if if I may. You know, I think about the role
• 21:32
  that you've got. You know you you are clearly a
• 21:35
  really excellent project leader. I think about all of these
• 21:38
  different roles that you've had across different parts of
• 21:40
  government and the really exciting role that you've got
• 21:42
  now, I mean you've obviously also nurtured a lot of of people
• 21:46
  along your your, your, your journey as well and and seeing
• 21:49
  them go on to do great things. So you will have seen great
• 21:51
  people and maybe some that were not so great.
• 21:54
  But if you were reflecting on your own journey and that of
• 21:56
  other people, what would you say the characteristics are of a
• 21:59
  really great project leader, someone that's really
• 22:03
  experienced. You know, you definitely need to
• 22:05
  be able to understand the technical competence you know in
• 22:09
  in, in what's actually involved in project delivery.
• 22:11
  But making sure that you and your team, you know have that
• 22:15
  really clear vision of of of what you are delivering and just
• 22:20
  making sure that everyone around you actually understands that
• 22:22
  whether that stakeholders or or your team.
• 22:24
  Because we know sometimes not having that clear vision at the
• 22:27
  start, you might end up with something that you did not want
• 22:30
  to get at the end of your project.
• 22:31
  So and you know and often as well certainly in my experience
• 22:35
  across government sometimes that you know communication is a
• 22:38
  really key aspect of successful project and programme.
• 22:41
  Every changes often fail because of that lack of communication.
• 22:45
  So whether that's at the outset of the project and and not
• 22:49
  agreeing the scope or whether that's through to the
• 22:52
  implementation of it and and not communicating with those who are
• 22:56
  impacted by the change. So you know it's important to be
• 22:59
  as transparent as possible with your stakeholders and your team.
• 23:03
  And certainly you know when you look at the space sector, you
• 23:07
  know because we are delivering multi billion pound you know
• 23:10
  projects and programmes, communication is definitely a
• 23:13
  key element. But actually it's also very much
• 23:15
  about being able to bring you know bring the team together is
• 23:18
  something that for me recognising the differences as
• 23:23
  well that people bring to your project team whether that's in
• 23:25
  sort of skills or you know background.
• 23:27
  It's all about you know recognising champion those
• 23:29
  differences as well. And in terms of you know that
• 23:31
  project leader you want someone who can bring that team
• 23:34
  together, inspire the team you know to get to keep going even
• 23:39
  during those times of you know pressure and and uncertainty
• 23:42
  which of course happens quite often in project delivery
• 23:44
  doesn't it. So being able to kind of keep
• 23:46
  the team going and motivated as as a really good characteristic
• 23:49
  of of a of a great project leader.
• 23:53
  Final question I wanted to ask you about, if I may, is that
• 23:56
  they're gonna be some people listening to this who are maybe
• 23:58
  right at the beginning of their journey in as a, you know, into
• 24:02
  the project management career. What advice would you give to
• 24:06
  them as things they might be thinking about or doing now if
• 24:09
  they really want to become one of those great project leaders
• 24:12
  that you've just talked about. Certainly looking back over my
• 24:16
  career and and certainly with with individuals that I mentor
• 24:19
  currently. It's definitely about finding
• 24:22
  someone who can champion you and and you know being able to offer
• 24:25
  that advice on on whether it's existing role and kind of career
• 24:30
  development or you know future development for example as well.
• 24:33
  And and and perhaps moving into a different whether it's a
• 24:36
  government department or a different sector you know
• 24:38
  because there are so many different roles out there in the
• 24:41
  project profession find something as well that you
• 24:44
  really interested in working in. You know so.
• 24:47
  So I've been lucky that I've I have government as a really
• 24:50
  diverse area for project and programme delivery.
• 24:53
  So when you're working on a project programme you know you
• 24:56
  can always look and see what else is is available out there
• 24:58
  that's you know available both public sector and and and
• 25:01
  private sector as well. So I think it's definitely about
• 25:04
  you know finding someone who can champion you.
• 25:06
  You know offer that advice when you need it as well and and
• 25:09
  mentoring but also you know, making sure that you are doing
• 25:12
  something that you're really passionate about because I think
• 25:15
  there's always that saying isn't it.
• 25:16
  Of course when you're in a job that you really enjoy it never
• 25:19
  really feels like a job and I I have to say I think you know all
• 25:22
  my time in government I've probably never really felt like
• 25:24
  I was just doing a job. I love the fact that I've got a
• 25:27
  career and it's a really great career in project and programme
• 25:30
  management and that's what keeps me, keeps me going and and
• 25:34
  hopefully you know for those younger listeners out there
• 25:36
  starting out in project management journey, they will
• 25:39
  find a really good opportunity to apply for if not just keep
• 25:43
  looking there. There are huge amounts of
• 25:44
  opportunities out there to to apply for.
• 25:47
  So I I definitely recommend the project of repression to to to
• 25:50
  people as well to to come into that.
• 25:53
  Excellent. Well, Martina, I think that
• 25:55
  brings us to the end of our conversation today.
• 25:56
  Thank you so much for giving up your time in what is, I know, an
• 25:59
  incredibly busy schedule to come and talk to us.
• 26:02
  I know our listeners will have found real inspiration from what
• 26:04
  you said. And please do come back and
• 26:06
  visit us on the podcast again to to update us on how everything's
• 26:10
  going. Maybe in a couple of years,
• 26:11
  it'll be interesting to see how things have moved on.
• 26:13
  But thank you for your time. Thank you.
• 26:15
  Thanks, Adam. Thank you for joining us for
• 26:23
  this episode of the APM Podcast. If you enjoyed it, don't forget
• 26:27
  to subscribe, leave us a review or why not, contact us with your
• 26:31
  feedback at APM Podcast at Think Publishing Co UK.
• 26:36
  For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.
• 26:40
  Thanks for listening.