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Sipping in Style: Exploring Japan’s Sake Cups · Sake On Air

0:02
The people of sake actually brought me into
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sake. Back in 1988, this place was actually
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Ginza, on the main drag. The first thing
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was kind of soy sauce. It was miso
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o. To the point where it actually
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changed my life. New Year's Day, nineteen
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not just sake as a beverage, but all
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the culture and history and
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Thank you for tuning into another episode of
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sake on air, the world's first podcast dedicated
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to expanding the dialogue surrounding Japan's iconic beverages,
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sake, shochu, and awamori.
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My name is Miho, and today I'm with
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Robert Yelling.
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He's a Japanese pottery expert,
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and together we'll be talking a lot about
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sake cups and vessels.
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Hi, Robert. Thank you for coming.
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Well, it's a joy to be back on
0:50
SAKIA on Air, and I thank you for
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having me
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after six years from our previous
0:56
session together. So thank you very much.
0:59
Yes. We talked to Robert
1:02
six years ago in 2020,
1:04
episode 52.
1:07
It would be great if you could listen
1:09
to
1:10
it after this episode or before.
1:13
So I I think
1:15
Shuki or Ake vessels,
1:19
are quite unique to Japanese,
1:22
drinking experience
1:23
that is not,
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there's no parallel
1:28
in
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other drinking cultures around the,
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outside of Japan.
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Maybe there is, but I can't really think
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of any. Yeah. I think the closest would
1:37
be China or Korea because they also have
1:39
a tea culture.
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But in the West, I I I don't
1:44
know either. I can't think of any other
1:46
than maybe beer steins in Germany.
1:49
But, yeah, I think you're right. And, of
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course,
1:51
it's indebted to the world of tea and
1:54
the tea ceremony
1:56
because a lot of vessels that we see
1:58
were part of a kaiseki meal.
2:00
And and, you know, thankfully, that has,
2:03
survived throughout the ages,
2:06
and such a Japanese wonderful aesthetic,
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a kaiseki meal, and and guinomi and tokuri
2:13
are part of that, as well as katakuchi,
2:15
which is a spouted pouring vessel.
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So I I agree with you. I don't
2:19
think there's any a culture that's taken,
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a simple
2:24
simple thing as a sake cup and and
2:27
brought it into
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so many varieties of styles. That's what's the
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joy of Japanese ceramics and Japanese pottery is
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that there's so many different styles like sake
2:37
because of the regions.
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You know? And,
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you have we
2:42
up north, there's not a whole lot.
2:45
There's,
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Tsumoyaki,
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I think, up in Tohoku somewhere. Of course,
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Mashiko,
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in Tochigi.
2:53
But every region has some local potter.
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Even if there's not a historical
2:58
association like these ancient kilns, there are individual
3:01
studio potters
3:03
throughout Japan.
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And they're all making most of them make
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sake vessels, kushuki, because,
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it's the most collected,
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form
3:13
that,
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they show at exhibitions. And one of the
3:16
reasons is
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they're small, and a lot of people live
3:20
in small houses
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or apartments or whatever. And they they want
3:25
a collection, but they can't have a big
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Tsubo jar.
3:29
Mhmm. But you can have a collection of
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a dozen or two dozen
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Shuky, Guinome in a small cabinet
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in all different varieties,
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and it will give you so much pleasure.
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You know? And and one of my dilemmas
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every night is, which one am I gonna
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use? Which one is calling you? Robert, pick
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me. Pick me. So, you know, I have
3:50
hundreds of because that's how I started out
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as a collector.
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And I have ones that I bought long
3:57
ago
3:58
that
3:59
were teachers in a way.
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I've learned the lesson from them. I don't
4:03
find them interesting anymore,
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but they were, you know, a growing level
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of learning about different styles, different makers, different
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price points. Mhmm. And, you know, the first
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one I bought was at a supermarket in
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Aisle 7 next to, you know, the miso
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packs. It was like 300 yen.
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Yeah. What what did it look like? The
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very first one? It was,
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you know, probably it was machine made,
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you know, porcelain
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with, you know, a painted flower or something.
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Oh, kind of a quince day looking sake
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cup.
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Well, when I came here, my eye was
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not attuned
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to Jimmy,
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Wabi
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Sabi, Suboku,
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all these Japanese aesthetics of being related to
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nature.
4:50
My eye was still a western eye looking
4:53
at something that pops out as beautiful,
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and that was Imari porcelain
4:59
or kotani,
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things which
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had great skill as a painterly type of
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items. Yep.
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And
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that was a good start.
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And somebody gave me a once or a,
5:14
and I couldn't understand it because I was
5:15
trying to under I was trying to get
5:18
to the essence by looking at it with
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the eyes of
5:22
a renaissance
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perfection,
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western
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educated
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eye.
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And the cup was like, shut up.
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The cup told me to shut up and
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look and and talk to me in silence.
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And then you will get the essence
5:41
of the beauty of material, just like a
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great chef.
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You know, in Japan, they don't cover it
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with sauces. Like, you know, you can you
5:48
can take, onion
5:50
and fire it in a wood burning kiln
5:51
with a, oven with a little salt, and
5:54
it's the best thing you've ever tasted. And
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Bizen is bringing out and other,
5:58
high fired, unglazed stoneware
6:01
are bringing out the beauty of the clay,
6:03
the material.
6:04
Mhmm.
6:05
And each one is unique. You can never
6:07
get the same one.
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And then it becomes like holding a shell
6:12
or a rock. It's right out of nature.
6:15
Mhmm.
6:16
And, of course, there's the consciousness of the
6:18
potter, but there's also the reverence of material.
6:21
Yes.
6:22
Listening to your previous episode,
6:25
I realized how,
6:27
sake
6:28
drinking sake in a nice sake cup is
6:31
a holistic
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experience,
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not just the taste, but the touch,
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the temperature,
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the smell,
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and even the sound. You were talking about
6:42
how,
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makes this specific sound
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when pouring into a cup. Tock, tok,
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tok, tok, tok, tok.
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Right. Yeah. You want it,
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as I might have mentioned in the previous
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episode, like, six years ago, I don't remember.
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But when you're buying a tokuri sake flask,
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find one where the opening
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in the neck is about as wide as
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your pinky or thereabouts
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because then it will make that rhythmical sound,
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which is very poetic.
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Mhmm. If it's too
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wide, the sake just gushes out, and it's
7:16
rather boring. But, yes, it is very holistic
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because you're holding something
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out of nature. You're holding something that was
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born
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from a kiln
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where the artist, the potter, the ceramic ceramicist,
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whatever you wanna say, is working with nature
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and sometimes letting con letting go of control,
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and that's where kind of the magic happens.
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And you're holding something
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that is rooted in the present,
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but is related to the past
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and will bring somebody happiness in the future
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as well as it brings you happiness now.
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So, yes, it it is very holistic.
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And holding a tea bowl is very holistic
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because as I mentioned, you're it's nourishing your
8:03
whole essence of being.
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You know? It's it's not just what you're
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drinking. It's you're examining it. You're holding it.
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You're looking at it.
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And I've heard people say,
8:14
I've I was using this BuenoMe, and I
8:17
enjoyed it so much that I forgot two
8:20
hours passed. You know? If time ceases to
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exist,
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it's really amazing. It's a magical vessel. It
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truly is.
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You know?
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So out of the
8:30
100 plus sake cups that you have, how
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do you pick one for the night,
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or do you go through a different,
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a few different cups in one I do.
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I do. I do. I have a nice
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lacquer tray,
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and I'll put two or three.
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Oh, no. It's about seasons.
8:47
Mhmm.
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I I really love it's called tsuchi aji,
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the flavor of the clay. So I I
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tend to go
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for works that are high fired, unglazed stoneware,
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like bizen,
9:01
shigaraki,
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sometimes tamba,
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echin.
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And
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as I said, karatsu
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is a very favored,
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style for sake cups.
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I have some from the sixteenth century.
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Wow. You know? And I'm like, okay. I
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wanna use that.
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Or or maybe I'm thinking of an artist
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or
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a deceased artist or somebody I know,
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then I'll like, oh, I wanna I wanna
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talk with this person, and I'll do that
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via holding their cup.
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So, yeah, there's there's no,
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you know, guidance really or or or rote
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method. It's just it's all a feeling, basically.
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Right. It's like picking what to wear for
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the day. You What to wear for the
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day, you know, or trying to, you know,
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look in the sky full of clouds and
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pick your favorite one. They're all kinda cool.
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You know? But it makes such a difference.
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You know? But like I said, a lot
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of people, they just wanna drink. But, you
10:01
know, drink with style, drink with grace, drink
10:04
with flair,
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and and and, you know, support the culture,
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not only through buying
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sake,
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but also the the great
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ceramicists
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throughout Japan
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who want you to enjoy
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it in a way
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that is
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a Japanese aesthetic.
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You know? You know, glasses are fine.
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What's the the glassmaker who's making,
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you know, Ginjo glasses and
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Riedel Riedel Riedel?
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Great.
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If that's your introduction,
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you know, do it. And I know one
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person who's like, I will never drink sake
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out of a out of a ceramic cup
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because it's not rounded,
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as much as I like because I like
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to swirl the sake around
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and get, you know,
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aroma, a nose to it. Okay. That's fine.
10:54
Just drink sake, you know, Nihonshu.
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And,
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maybe one day, you you'll figure out that,
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you can swirl some around. You know, a
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wide
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bodied,
11:08
sake vessel, and there there are those, you
11:11
can swirl it around
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and get a nice nose to it. And,
11:15
of course, the difference, you know, shapes
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of the guinomi and the thickness of the
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lip will change flavor profiles. I probably mentioned
11:23
that, you know, in the past.
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A wide open cup with a thin lip,
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the sake comes right to the tip of
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your tongue. If it's a taller cup with
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a thicker lip,
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it'll go to the back of your tongue.
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So you put the same sake in both
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of those cups, you'll come out with a
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different flavor profile.
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Mhmm. Yeah. So your friend, what he or
11:43
she can do is
11:45
maybe use a a glass to get all
11:48
the the the aroma first. And then for
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the second cup,
11:53
you know, he can choose a different ceramic,
11:56
like, a different cup that's that could
11:59
be ceramic. Because it the the touch to
12:01
the lips really adds
12:03
another layer to the the joy of drinking.
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It's very sensual. There was once a bizzen
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potter named Nakamura Rokuro. Mhmm. And and he
12:13
was known as the king of Shuki.
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His sake cups and I'll send you a
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photo if you want. It's called a mountain
12:20
path, Yamanomichi.
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And it kinda rises and descends around the
12:25
cup, but where
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the cup meets your lip, it is like
12:29
a it's it's it's inserted
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so smoothly. And he always said, you're when
12:35
you drink sake from one of my cups,
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it should be like your first kiss.
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Yes. You mentioned that quote in the previous
12:43
episode, and I didn't realize it was from
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a bizen maker. Nakamura Rokuro.
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He studied with the first living national treasure
12:51
of bizen named Kaneshige Toyo,
12:54
who is responsible for the popularity of Bizen
12:57
today because he was able
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to bring back the ancient ways of firing
13:01
that were lost during the Meiji period. So
13:04
he had a great teacher.
13:06
And his son is Makoto, and his grandson
13:09
is Kazuki.
13:10
And Kazuki,
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has exhibitions throughout Japan,
13:14
and he makes
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sake cups in the style of his grandfather
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equally as good,
13:21
maybe, zero less on the price.
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So search out his name.
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I've known him since he was in
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elementary school or so. Now he's in his
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forties.
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And,
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his cups have that kissable
13:37
likeness to them when you put them to
13:40
your lips.
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Yeah. It's it's interesting because Bizen is unglazed
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and
13:45
a little bit rough.
13:47
It can be. Glazed,
13:49
ceramics. But
13:51
first guess, it is It's a super popular
13:54
style, bizzen.
13:56
And as such,
13:57
there are hundreds and hundreds of potters in
14:00
the bizzen area.
14:02
During the bubble years, there were many more,
14:05
but,
14:06
it's it's the most popular style of high
14:09
fired anglazed stoneware.
14:12
Of course, there's Shigaraki,
14:13
but Shigaraki only has a dozen or so
14:17
really, really
14:18
fine potters who are making
14:20
shuki. But Bee Zen has
14:22
dozens and dozens.
14:25
So,
14:26
and there are,
14:28
Bee Zen specialty
14:29
galleries,
14:31
in Tokyo
14:32
and in
14:34
Kyoto as well.
14:36
So, yeah,
14:38
go go find something,
14:40
in the style
14:42
that you that you like, but certainly,
14:45
it's called yaki shime.
14:47
The high fired unglazed stoneware
14:49
are kind of the core,
14:51
roots of Japanese ceramics.
14:54
That's right. I was actually in Bizen at
14:57
the end of last year
14:59
and
15:00
went to a studio and made my own
15:02
sake cup.
15:04
I'm still waiting for it to to arrive,
15:06
but
15:07
that's Well, the they only well, if it's
15:09
gonna be fired in a traditional, you know,
15:12
makigama wood burning kiln,
15:14
Sometimes they only fire that once a year
15:17
or twice a year. So that's my you
15:19
wanna be waiting.
15:20
Really? You made it. Well, I wanna look
15:22
at it. I will. I will,
15:24
evaluate,
15:26
your Please do. Yeah. Maybe we'll even give
15:28
it a poetic name. Oh, that would be
15:31
amazing.
15:32
And it will flow through time. Maybe somebody
15:35
in five hundred years or eight hundred years
15:37
from now will look upon the cup and
15:39
go, I wonder who used this once. How
15:41
did it flow through time,
15:43
and places to come into my hands now?
15:47
So there's there's something more than just imbibing
15:50
the drink. There's,
15:52
the history. There's the regionality of different styles
15:55
of of pottery,
15:57
which are fascinating, and some of those also
15:59
equate to seasons.
16:02
And and
16:03
you examine the cup. It not only nourishes
16:06
your body while get you buzzed at the
16:08
same time.
16:09
It also you you look at it. You
16:11
examine it. You turn it over,
16:13
just like, chalan, a a a matcha bowl.
16:17
After you drink matcha in a traditional ceremony,
16:19
you turn it over. You look how the
16:21
foot is carved. And
16:23
you can do that with
16:25
as well,
16:27
which is sake cup. I mean, there's different
16:29
terms. There's Sakazuki. There's high,
16:33
there's choco, and there's.
16:36
But guinomi is basically the term used now,
16:39
and it's a lot bigger than ochoco,
16:42
because sake is more available now to the
16:44
masses, and,
16:46
you have larger cups. And but you don't
16:49
have to fill them.
16:50
Right?
16:51
It's the ma, the empty space, which
16:54
is part of the enjoyment.
16:57
Of course, when you go to some,
16:59
they'll they'll pour it over in a glass,
17:01
and they'll put you know, they'll flow into
17:03
the dish, and that's a nice service,
17:05
and hospitality. But if you're drinking with some
17:07
friends, you know, you leave some ma, some
17:11
emptiness.
17:12
And I went I once went to a
17:13
a Bizen potter,
17:15
the famous Kaneshige family, Kaneshige Michiaki, and I
17:18
bought one of his Bizen.
17:21
Mhmm. And I said it's really large. And
17:24
he goes, you know,
17:26
you westerners think you have to fill it
17:28
up
17:29
to the top, to the brim, you know,
17:31
just to the brim. And he goes, no.
17:33
Only fill it up a third.
17:36
And notice how particularly with Bizen, the sake
17:39
or the liquid splashes around the cup or
17:42
you move it around, and the the clay
17:45
starts to glisten.
17:46
And you can't do that if it's full.
17:49
And,
17:51
there's an old expression,
17:56
You put sake into a bizen flask, and
18:00
it becomes better. And a connoisseur's
18:02
combination
18:03
is a karatsu,
18:05
which is a style as many styles are
18:07
named after towns. It's it's the name of
18:09
a town in Saga Prefecture.
18:11
A connoisseur's combination
18:13
is a karatsu,
18:14
guinomi, and a bizen tokuri.
18:17
That's the epitome of refinement,
18:19
you know. And there are many young artists,
18:23
making these vessels still very reasonably priced,
18:27
Mhmm. And,
18:29
keeping traditions alive
18:31
is very important now because
18:33
so many artisans and craftsmen
18:36
do not have heirs or apprentices to follow.
18:40
So, you know, support the culture by also
18:44
adding
18:45
vessels to your collection.
18:48
And there are really good ones for $2.03,
18:50
4,000 yen. You know, you don't have to
18:53
spend a lot of money,
18:54
and you're gonna use it with care and
18:57
joy.
18:58
Mhmm. And especially, like,
19:01
like, wear like, business wear,
19:04
that's kind of rough on the surface at
19:06
the beginning.
19:08
As you use it, it starts to kind
19:11
of have this
19:12
starts to take this shine
19:14
almost.
19:15
And,
19:17
you know, like, it it the the texture
19:19
changes over time
19:22
through the night, but also, like, over years.
19:25
It it does. And,
19:27
you should also,
19:28
allow the the to
19:30
drink as well. So you dip you dip
19:32
your finger into the guinome, and you rub
19:35
some sake
19:36
on the outside.
19:38
And over time, the patina, as you say,
19:41
the will change.
19:42
And
19:43
there there's one style that's known to change
19:46
seven times. Now I don't know if that's
19:48
over a 100 years or so, but it's
19:50
Hagiyaki, and it's called Nanabake.
19:53
And, you know, and the potters equate it
19:55
like to bring up a child. You're going
19:57
to raise this cup. Mhmm.
20:00
So it will mature
20:02
over time.
20:03
And, you know,
20:04
Hagee is kind of a porous type of
20:07
glaze and clay body.
20:10
So the liquid seeps into it, which is
20:13
not a really good style to use in
20:15
summertime
20:17
because it's very humid. And if you don't
20:19
dry it properly,
20:20
it will get mold, cubby.
20:22
Right. So,
20:24
hagi is much better
20:26
in cooler months or in the spring,
20:29
before it gets too humid.
20:31
But you'll see a change. It'll get crackles.
20:33
It'll get little colorations.
20:36
Some of some of it's referred to as
20:38
Amamori,
20:39
like a leaky roof in an old thatched
20:42
roof house. And these are desired effects.
20:45
Mhmm. I think it's just like sake. You
20:47
know, there are some reputed sakes,
20:51
over others,
20:52
but it just comes down to your preference.
20:54
If you like
20:56
a sake that's
20:58
inexpensive,
20:59
that's available everywhere, that's
21:01
totally fine. It's the same with sake cups.
21:05
Exactly. It's there's no correct way. It's your
21:08
own
21:09
personal
21:10
aesthetic,
21:12
vision or,
21:14
how you want to. There's no wrong way
21:16
to to drink sake. You know? Oh, you're
21:18
drinking it from the wrong cup. You know?
21:21
In in the summer, you're you're you're not
21:22
supposed to use a a black seto cup,
21:25
seto gurro.
21:26
You know? Because because it's dark, and and
21:28
you just look at it in the summer,
21:30
and you'll start to sweat because it doesn't
21:32
look cool.
21:34
You know? It looks like it should be
21:35
held next to a fireplace.
21:38
You know? So in the summertime, you maybe
21:40
wanna use glass or pewter, as I said.
21:43
But in the world of ceramics, porcelain,
21:46
jiki, because it's cool to the touch.
21:49
Or you might wanna use something called
21:52
seihakuji,
21:53
which is a bluish white porcelain, and the
21:55
glaze looks like ice.
21:57
So just gazing upon that in the deep
22:00
humidity
22:01
of of, you know, midsummer,
22:03
you'll feel cool
22:05
just from the emotion
22:06
the cup imparts to you.
22:10
You know? You have so many cups, and
22:13
just out of personal curiosity,
22:15
how do you keep them? How do you
22:17
store them? Because
22:19
that's becoming a problem for me. I had
22:22
a carpenter
22:23
a carpentry,
22:25
make a special,
22:27
box or or a display case for holding
22:30
the sake cups.
22:34
So
22:35
yeah.
22:36
And I have a a room upstairs
22:38
totally devoted to the whole collection.
22:41
Wow. Sometime, I, some of them are in
22:44
a Chadansu.
22:45
Like, you know, you can find them at
22:46
flea markets,
22:48
temple temple markets,
22:50
you know, a tea chest.
22:54
And I think there are,
22:56
makers of boxes specifically for.
23:01
Wow.
23:02
So, I kinda have a a ton of
23:04
a a little chest Mhmm. With, you know,
23:07
five or six shelves.
23:09
And at the front of the shelf,
23:12
there is,
23:13
like, a
23:14
raised the raised bar so they they won't
23:17
slide out.
23:18
And I often keep them upside down,
23:22
to dry them.
23:23
You know? I I don't put them
23:25
flat,
23:26
so the air can't get inside,
23:29
but you also wanna dry the base.
23:32
So,
23:33
that that's how I a lot of them.
23:36
But I'll send a picture. I'll I'll show
23:37
you if you want. Do you go through
23:39
trends, like a personal trend
23:41
of Yes.
23:42
Yes. Yes. Okay. What is your trend
23:45
currently?
23:47
Well, I'm always looking for specific artists
23:50
and particularly,
23:53
ones that
23:56
well, I met Tsujiseime.
23:57
So Tsujiseime
23:59
was born 1927,
24:02
and passed away in 2008.
24:04
He was known as the
24:06
Yokozuna
24:08
sake drinking potter of the East
24:13
because he was just like a shuki master.
24:15
His tokuri
24:17
are bold,
24:18
and they have the perfect
24:19
lip on the tokuri, which is kind of,
24:22
like a tulip, so it's easy to pour
24:24
the sake in,
24:26
because it's a kind of everted.
24:29
And
24:30
I
24:31
I every day on
24:33
private auctions or public auctions, I'm looking for
24:36
Tsujisame's
24:37
work.
24:38
And then in Bizen
24:40
is Mori Togaku,
24:42
who was born in 1936.
24:44
So he'll be 90 years old.
24:46
Wow. Still making
24:49
when Hideyoshi
24:50
went to Bizen in the late Momoyama period,
24:55
he designated
24:56
six families as his honorable craftsman,
24:59
and the Mori family is one of them.
25:01
So his history goes way back.
25:03
And
25:05
he built a very large kiln, 85 meters.
25:08
It took him twenty
25:10
twenty six years to build this kiln.
25:14
26,
25:15
85 meters long, six meters across.
25:19
Twenty six years to build, five years to
25:22
load the kiln.
25:24
So to me, he's like Hercules.
25:27
Wow.
25:28
And his his
25:30
and are
25:32
like zen they have a a a an
25:34
aura of a of a zen monk.
25:37
Wow. So he only fires every five years?
25:40
No. No. He the the kiln was loaded.
25:43
It took five years to put the pieces
25:45
in the kiln because it was so large.
25:48
Wow.
25:49
He only fired that kiln once,
25:51
in
25:52
December in, 2015.
25:56
He he lit the fire
25:58
on January 4, and he fired the kiln
26:01
for a hundred and seven days. Oh my
26:04
goodness. This is legendary stuff. He has a
26:07
smaller kiln he fired last year,
26:10
which is 20 meters, and he called me
26:12
up.
26:13
I've got a few Tokuri, a few Gwi
26:15
no Mi. So I went there, and I
26:17
bought them early this year.
26:19
But I'm also looking at dealers' auctions and
26:22
private auctions.
26:23
So Mori Togaku,
26:25
Tsujiseime,
26:27
of course, Nakamura Rokuro,
26:29
the great Kaneshige Toyo,
26:32
Rosanjin.
26:33
But these are pricey pieces. You know? These
26:35
are in the hundreds of thousands of yen.
26:38
Yeah. So, you know, you gotta be a
26:39
high end collector
26:41
or deep pockets.
26:43
And and as a beginner,
26:44
I would not go that route. I would
26:47
say, you know, find a really good potter
26:50
who's selling
26:51
a fine for
26:54
5,000 yen.
26:55
You know? And they they exist.
26:58
You know? Right.
27:00
You know? So start low and then go
27:02
high.
27:04
Yes. As with anything
27:06
anything, I guess, with And, you know, I
27:08
have, my gallery here in Kyoto,
27:11
and I'm using an old,
27:15
an old Korean medicine chest
27:17
as a
27:18
display chest for.
27:21
So once where there were potions and all
27:25
types of herbs
27:26
in the drawers,
27:28
there's all these sake cups, and I don't
27:30
remember which one is which one is where.
27:35
So,
27:36
yeah,
27:37
I I do go through trends, and I
27:39
go to
27:41
feeling,
27:43
but it it comes and goes. But those
27:45
three people
27:46
are always,
27:47
on the lookout for.
27:49
Wow.
27:50
Yeah. I'm not
27:52
not there yet to follow specific artists.
27:56
I just go to different
27:58
trips and look for local ceramic shops, and
28:01
and I I love looking through sake cups.
28:04
Yeah. So
28:05
anyone can start there.
28:07
Yeah. Yeah. It's a little treasure hunt. Mhmm.
28:09
For sure.
28:10
And it's just
28:12
almost like romantic to think
28:16
who used this before.
28:18
I love that.
28:19
I, you know, I have this twelfth century
28:22
cup. I have a 500 year old Korean
28:24
cup. I have a couple of,
28:27
Momoyama period sixteenth century karatsu.
28:32
And even even current pieces,
28:35
I when we're talking about how things are
28:37
made, you know, I'm not a technical person.
28:39
I'm an aesthetic person, and I don't really
28:42
care
28:43
what temperature something is fired at. That's not
28:45
gonna make me appreciate
28:47
the piece more. You know? I don't care
28:49
what percentage the rice was milled at. I'm
28:52
sorry. I just I I I do I
28:54
like it? Does it appeal to me? And
28:57
the same with these cups. I don't you
28:59
know, I I'd rather be mystified.
29:02
I think mystery is something which is lacking
29:05
in people's lives. They wanna know everything, and
29:07
they wanna know it now. Mhmm.
29:10
So, you know, like you're saying, this old
29:12
piece,
29:14
who held it before?
29:16
Where did it come from in terms of
29:19
flowing through time?
29:21
And that to me is is poetry.
29:24
Mhmm. That to me is like holding
29:27
an ancient basho haiku in your hand,
29:31
and and it brings such
29:33
spirituality
29:34
and mysticism
29:36
into a functional object.
29:38
And that's the beauty of Japanese culture in
29:40
many ways,
29:41
you know, particularly things that you use
29:45
to
29:46
dine with, to drink with.
29:49
You know? There's there's so much surrounding it,
29:53
that you'll never know the answers to, but
29:55
ask the questions.
29:57
Right.
29:58
Yeah. I think,
30:00
as you
30:01
mentioned, these painted
30:03
porcelain like
30:05
and are
30:06
beautiful,
30:07
but very simple,
30:10
almost like earth like
30:13
wares, like,
30:15
are very, very poetic.
30:17
They are. I mean so emotional.
30:20
Absolutely.
30:21
The the skill
30:22
that goes into the painting of some of
30:24
these, like, very, very
30:28
detailed
30:28
Kutani pieces are amazing.
30:31
Mhmm. You know?
30:33
You have this very,
30:36
thin brush,
30:38
and
30:39
the the the eyesight, they they must their
30:41
eyesight must go bad in their thirties or
30:43
so because it's so minute.
30:46
It's true. The skill. There's one guy in
30:48
Kutani. His name is Fukushima Buzan.
30:52
Like, seriously, how did you paint that? And
30:54
it's all control. They know exactly what they
30:56
want, and good for them. They're able to
30:58
achieve that. Mhmm. But these wood fired pieces,
31:01
like you say,
31:03
they're they're something completely different. And
31:06
you load the kiln.
31:08
You know, the kilns were introduced in the
31:09
sixth century,
31:11
the Anagama Tunnel kiln in the sixteenth century,
31:13
the Noborigama
31:15
climbing kiln.
31:16
And you load the kiln now very precisely
31:20
because you know how the ash and the
31:21
fire is gonna flow, but you can't predict
31:25
how it's gonna come out.
31:27
Mhmm. You have knowledge. You have experience,
31:31
but you have to let go sometimes of
31:33
total control. So for me, that's a lot
31:35
of metaphor, somewhat of a metaphor of life
31:38
Mhmm. In a way.
31:40
You you're not gonna be able to control
31:41
everything, but beauty
31:43
will come about if your heart,
31:46
is in the right place
31:47
most of the time.
31:49
So,
31:50
and, you know, these pieces which are fired
31:52
in a wood burning kiln
31:54
have often a jewel like
31:57
glassy facade
31:58
from the ash. It's called a she's in
32:00
you, a natural ash clays, And you you
32:02
don't know how that's gonna come out. The
32:04
kiln is like a womb, and some potters
32:07
say these pieces are born.
32:09
They're not made.
32:12
Right.
32:12
So,
32:14
yeah, every region, that's what makes
32:17
ceramics and sake as well so so fascinating
32:20
because every region has its own flavor, its
32:24
own style Mhmm. Based on the traditions of
32:27
the past.
32:29
And, of course, people are creating traditions
32:31
based on the past and making them fresh
32:33
and new, and that's important because tradition is
32:36
a living thing.
32:38
Mhmm. You know? And,
32:40
as I we mentioned, Bee's End, it's a
32:42
thousand years old,
32:43
But nobody needs a huge
32:46
rice storage jar
32:48
for a year's worth for a family of
32:50
three. I have a big one like that
32:52
outside of the the gallery.
32:54
You know? And if the
32:56
society's changing, lifestyles change. And if pottery and
33:00
sake do not change, they disappear,
33:05
or they become obsolete.
33:08
And I'm not just talking about
33:09
pottery
33:11
or sake, but, you know,
33:12
ideas of tradition, if they don't evolve, they
33:15
can even become dangerous.
33:17
Right. That's why there's war
33:20
because we have not evolved as a species.
33:23
We're stuck two thousand years ago in ideas
33:25
and thoughts.
33:26
So tradition is a living thing, and it
33:28
needs to change.
33:30
So you have people, young artists, and and
33:33
people who are veterans as well in these
33:35
regions who learned from the past,
33:39
broke the broke everything,
33:41
and made
33:42
it new to themselves. What is that called?
33:46
Or,
33:48
or.
33:49
Yeah. You know? And you need to learn
33:52
your foundation
33:53
because you you need to learn the basics,
33:56
and then
33:57
you
33:58
make it into your own voice if you're
34:00
able to.
34:01
Mhmm. So,
34:03
you know, tradition is a living thing, and
34:06
we have to
34:07
understand
34:08
that, you know, look how society is changing
34:11
so fast. You know, twenty years ago,
34:14
you know, the Internet, you know, well, maybe
34:16
a little longer because I started my gallery
34:19
in the nineties
34:20
on the, in the infancy of the Internet.
34:24
So but, you know, that was science fiction
34:26
for me growing up. I'm 65 now, and
34:29
society is changing so quick even more at
34:31
a rapid pace than
34:33
ever.
34:36
So ideas,
34:37
traditions have got to keep up with that
34:39
change.
34:41
Right.
34:41
And there's a great poem
34:43
by Lao Tzu, sixth century,
34:46
Chinese philosopher.
34:47
Mhmm. And he said that
34:49
each piece
34:50
should be as a heartbeat
34:52
or a signature of the potter.
34:55
Mhmm. And that will make the pot
34:58
better,
34:59
which is more alive.
35:02
And the better
35:03
developed a potter is as a human being,
35:06
the better the pot,
35:08
for there's no real beauty without character.
35:11
So you're there's a consciousness. You know, it's
35:14
going beyond technique.
35:15
Anybody can learn to throw a a
35:19
or a rice bowl. Mhmm. That's technique. But
35:22
we're looking for
35:24
spirit, and we're looking for the consciousness
35:27
in a in a very subtle, quiet way
35:29
when you hold
35:30
something made by a person.
35:33
Right. And, thankfully, there are wonderful women now
35:35
making great.
35:38
Really, really wonderful. My favorite is.
35:42
She she was just here
35:44
couple weeks ago. She brought about 20.
35:48
I bought them all.
35:49
She studied in Karatsu. She's now in Hyogo.
35:53
And, you know, she loves sake. And like
35:55
I said maybe I haven't said it. If
35:58
a potter does not drink
36:00
sake, they probably will not make a really
36:03
fine sake cup
36:05
because
36:06
because
36:07
the experience of of using something that you
36:10
made based on a beverage
36:12
will only,
36:13
you know, make it more enjoyable to use.
36:16
That doesn't mean
36:18
that, you know, potters who don't drink sake,
36:20
their sake cups are no good, but I
36:22
I think they lack,
36:24
a depth of experience.
36:26
Right.
36:28
It's Particularly the lip.
36:30
Right. Right.
36:31
It's interesting because I think some great dojis
36:34
don't drink,
36:37
but still make great sake.
36:39
Yeah. So that's the thing.
36:41
It it it's a it it equates the
36:43
same.
36:45
I love looking through pictures
36:47
online,
36:48
and spend just I can easily spend hours
36:51
looking
36:52
at pictures of great sake cups online, but
36:57
it's it's a completely different experience
36:59
when you can actually touch it,
37:02
feel it,
37:04
and hold hold and feel the weight Sure.
37:07
Of our Absolutely.
37:08
Absolutely. The texture, the weight. Mhmm.
37:11
You know, it's not just the visual beauty.
37:13
It's all of the things you just said.
37:16
When I started collecting, there was no Internet,
37:19
but there was a publishing company called Colgate
37:21
Shupam.
37:22
Mhmm.
37:23
And they would have
37:25
picture books. It was like all and
37:28
by hundreds and hundreds of artists. Yeah. And
37:31
it's really important, as you said,
37:33
to look at these different things, develop your
37:36
eye, particularly if you're new
37:38
to the world of Japanese ceramic art.
37:41
You know, look at the classic pieces.
37:43
Look at what's made before.
37:45
Look at the different styles.
37:47
Learn about the different styles because it's really
37:49
hard at first, but you have to look
37:52
and
37:53
and and develop an,
37:55
database of knowledge
37:57
to know
37:58
what is what. Because if you look at
38:00
sometimes Shigaraki or H is in in in
38:02
Iga, it's hard to differentiate, you know, or
38:05
sometimes.
38:06
So, yes, it's very important to look, and
38:08
it's so easy these days because you have
38:10
the Internet. But if you are in,
38:14
or going online,
38:15
it's like a.
38:17
And it's just pictures and pictures and pictures
38:20
and pictures of contemporary artists, and that's where
38:22
I learned a lot
38:24
just by pouring through these books. Mhmm.
38:27
You know? So,
38:29
a really, really good point, Neil, that,
38:31
yeah, look.
38:33
Develop an eye.
38:34
Develop your own
38:36
preferences and aesthetic. Mhmm.
38:39
Because only you can do that.
38:41
It's true. Don't put your finger to the
38:44
wind.
38:46
Right.
38:47
So you had
38:50
a morning tennis session,
38:52
and it's getting quite warm.
38:55
What if you were to pick a sake
38:58
cup?
39:00
What kind of cup would it be today?
39:04
I'll probably
39:05
go with Sujisame,
39:07
one of his cups. But, also,
39:10
because it's we're gonna start to get warmer.
39:13
I might use,
39:15
a hockey cup or something that I would
39:17
not use as the seasons are changing now,
39:20
slowly but changing.
39:21
Before it gets too humid,
39:23
I might use a cup that I would
39:26
not use.
39:27
And,
39:28
as we're getting into spring,
39:31
this morning, I drank matcha from a a
39:33
rosy type of pinkish shino.
39:38
So,
39:39
I like to try to match with the
39:40
seasons,
39:41
and I think shino is a wonderful,
39:45
spring type of a cup,
39:48
with its red and
39:49
pink blushes,
39:51
the beauty of this feldspar
39:53
creamy glaze.
39:55
So I like to use Shino in the
39:59
approaching spring.
40:01
Mhmm.
40:02
A cup that I got from Kimata san,
40:05
which is very colorful,
40:07
greens and blues and,
40:10
and the form,
40:12
is so
40:15
sensual in a way
40:17
and
40:18
and properly fits in my hand. So,
40:21
I had a dream about that cup, so
40:23
I'll probably use that one again.
40:26
I've I've had dreams of pottery, and I
40:28
I had dreams of flying over.
40:30
You know? It's Wow. I mean, it's an
40:33
obsession.
40:34
I've been to hundreds of times. Mhmm.
40:37
I take people there. So, you know, if
40:39
anybody's in Kyoto or,
40:41
it's an off season for me and you
40:44
wanna have a sake party or you wanna
40:46
bring some friends and we'll go to Bizen,
40:48
I'm, we I'm sure we can arrange something.
40:51
And even sake on air, you guys get
40:53
together sometimes? I mean,
40:55
in Tokyo, have parties?
40:57
Yes.
40:58
Yes. Okay. So I wanna come up. I
41:00
will bring a suitcase
41:02
of various
41:03
periods
41:05
of Guinomy,
41:06
various styles,
41:08
and let's have a little,
41:10
hands on session
41:12
of
41:12
of,
41:13
sake
41:14
at your selected venue. You know, I used
41:17
to we used to do that with John
41:19
all the time because John and I have
41:20
kind of a parallel life.
41:23
John is an engineer. He wants to know
41:25
technical things. I wanted to be a poet,
41:27
so I'm more aesthetics.
41:28
Ah. You know? But we would have these
41:30
we were writing columns, as you know, in
41:32
the Japan Times at the parallel time.
41:35
And we we would say, like, is anybody
41:37
reading our columns? Let's have,
41:39
a little gathering.
41:41
So, you know, we would put an announcement.
41:43
We're gonna meet.
41:45
The first place was Mushu. It was in
41:47
a Wajicho
41:48
in Tokyo.
41:49
And I would come up from Shizuoka. It
41:50
was easy. And then we met at,
41:53
Takura.
41:54
Used to be in the in the Koksai
41:56
forum.
41:57
And John would talk about, aspect of sake,
42:00
and I would talk about pottery, and I'd
42:02
bring up vessels.
42:03
And I'd let people use them.
42:05
You know? And people are, well, I'm so
42:07
nervous. Why are you nervous? Just just pick
42:10
it up. You're not gonna break it. You
42:12
know? And
42:13
everything has its own destiny.
42:15
And if you do break it, it's okay.
42:18
Okay? We'll get it.
42:22
But, I always found it fascinating to watch
42:25
people
42:26
using a a really good for the first
42:28
time, and their reaction, you could just see
42:31
their eyes light up. Right. It's so different.
42:34
Mhmm.
42:36
And now you're not only tasting
42:38
history and culture, you're holding it as well.
42:41
Which can be very nerve wracking sometimes
42:44
depending on the piece.
42:45
Well, yes and no. I mean, just calm
42:48
yourself. Take a deep breath.
42:50
Yes. It's a sixteenth century 4,000,000
42:54
yen kokoratsu
42:55
cup,
42:56
but
42:57
just be one with it.
42:59
It's true. It's it's it's a problem that
43:02
I have. I buy nice ceramics, and then
43:04
I just get scared of using them,
43:07
which is
43:08
silly because, you know, I buy them to
43:10
to be used.
43:13
Mhmm. Exactly.
43:15
Beauty through using something. The person made it
43:18
to be used
43:19
Right. In a calm,
43:21
joyful
43:22
manner.
43:23
They didn't want it to be put into
43:25
a cupboard in the box, stuffed away, and
43:28
only brought out,
43:30
you know, on well, some pieces are just
43:32
made for special occasions, but,
43:36
everything has its own destiny, even a cup.
43:39
So,
43:40
live with it. Enjoy it
43:42
because
43:43
life is short. You know? And why not
43:46
make every day special?
43:48
You know?
43:49
Why is one day New Year's and the
43:52
other not? You know, when you go to
43:53
Kalei Kanjiro's house in Kyoto, he passed away
43:56
in '66.
43:57
He's got New Year's decorations up all year
43:59
round.
44:00
You know?
44:02
Why save that special sake? Well, you might
44:04
for your anniversary or birthday,
44:06
but that's also today.
44:08
True.
44:09
Every day's special.
44:11
Everyday
44:12
is magic.
44:13
Right. You know? And and
44:15
when you're aware of that,
44:17
everything
44:18
like, you're in awe of existence.
44:21
Mhmm. That you're alive. You can flick your
44:24
fingers. It took a billion years. Never take
44:26
anything for granted. You know? Not even a
44:29
a sake cup. Use it.
44:32
It it's it's a it's a gift
44:35
to be able to enjoy
44:37
a meal.
44:38
You know? Rosanjin
44:40
said,
44:41
plates
44:42
are kimono for food. You know, nothing has
44:45
been taken to this highest level of elegance,
44:48
sophistication,
44:49
and simplicity
44:51
than a Japanese meal.
44:53
Mhmm. You know, the vessels, a chopstick rest
44:56
can be like a dragon. Oh, my hachioki
44:59
is a dragon. How cool is that?
45:02
You know? And the sake cup was made
45:04
by a fourteenth generation
45:06
who just got their new succession name. You
45:09
know, it's 10,000 yen, but it's 14 generations.
45:12
You know? Or it's some new person who
45:15
just graduated art university,
45:17
you know, and is having their debut show,
45:19
and you happen to like it. That purchase
45:22
is such a positive,
45:24
kick in the pants for that person. So
45:27
your money speaks not only your values,
45:29
but how you support other,
45:33
companies and individuals as well. So use your
45:36
money wisely.
45:38
Yeah. I I absolutely
45:40
agree.
45:41
And using something you really like makes you
45:43
so happy, and it's it's such a simple
45:46
way of being happy and staying happy.
45:49
Exactly. It's so it's so simple.
45:52
You know?
45:54
People overcomplicate
45:55
things. And, yeah, sure. Okay. If you're gonna
45:57
have, you know, very floral,
46:01
Yeah. You wanna select the the proper cup.
46:04
You know, if you're having, you know, you
46:07
wanna
46:08
select another type of cup. You know, there's
46:11
open face, there's cylindrical, there's round ones.
46:15
So each one of those will, again, give
46:17
your sake a different flavor profile. Mhmm. So
46:20
that's part of the simple fun of opening
46:23
a bottle and, like, when you have a
46:25
couple to choose from, which one am I
46:26
gonna choose from now?
46:28
You know? I mean, it's a little kind
46:30
of poetic game you're playing,
46:33
and I I love that. I love
46:36
them. And, of course, get a nice tray
46:38
if you can. Mhmm.
46:40
A wooden tray or a lacquer tray, which
46:42
is, of course, wood. And when you place
46:44
them, it changes the ambiance, the feeling. So,
46:48
you know, I love lacquerware,
46:50
and my favorite is negoro,
46:52
which is black and red, dates back to
46:54
the Muromachi period. But you put a ochoco,
46:56
a guinome, and a and a and a
46:58
flask on there, and
47:00
it's like a painting.
47:03
Yeah. You can just elevate
47:05
the the the everyday drinking experience to
47:09
the next level.
47:10
Yeah.
47:11
With sake, it's, you know, the water,
47:14
the farmers,
47:16
the air,
47:18
the the soil.
47:19
So much of nature
47:21
and history and consciousness goes into that one
47:24
drop.
47:25
Mhmm.
47:26
And when you're aware of that, when you're
47:28
drinking, you're like thanking the sun. Thank you,
47:30
sun, for growing the rice.
47:32
You know? Thank you, water, for being pure
47:34
from the mountains.
47:36
Mhmm. And that's that's a a a level
47:39
of daily consciousness that we all should have
47:41
because we're all connected, and we're connected to
47:43
nature.
47:44
And, you know, again, pottery is is the
47:47
elements I stated before,
47:50
and
47:51
sake,
47:52
is so related to
47:55
the natural elements as well. And when you
47:57
have
47:58
awareness of that and gratitude
48:00
to the farmers, to the sun, to the
48:02
rice,
48:03
then everything is magic. Everything you do
48:07
is magical
48:08
because you have a consciousness of gratitude.
48:11
Yes. I I can't agree more.
48:14
It took me a while to get to
48:16
the that point
48:18
because Sure. Sure. When I was younger, I
48:19
just wanted to drink, but I'm the age
48:22
of appreciating
48:24
more than just drinking.
48:26
And
48:29
Exactly.
48:30
I was that way too. You know, not
48:32
just drinking, but other shenanigans
48:34
as well.
48:35
Yes. No thing.
48:37
Yeah.
48:39
So,
48:40
you know, as we get older, hopefully,
48:44
our awareness of the gift of life,
48:46
becomes a higher
48:48
love supreme as John Coltrane would say. Mhmm.
48:52
And and all those things
48:55
go into
48:57
your hand
48:58
when what you're holding and what you put
49:00
into the what you're holding.
49:02
And,
49:03
you know, they say t equals zen and
49:05
zen equals t. I would also like to
49:08
think that sake equals zen and zen equals
49:11
sake because a lot of the monks like
49:12
to drink too. You know? I've seen that
49:15
in Daitoku ji. You know? So,
49:19
there there's much more to it
49:21
than just the simple things that we observe.
49:24
There's so much behind
49:26
all that simplicity.
49:28
Yes. I think that's a a beautiful closing
49:30
line.
49:32
Okay.
49:33
I hope that was interesting, and and I
49:35
thank you all very much. And thank the
49:37
listeners. Thank you, listeners,
49:39
for supporting your local kura
49:42
and supporting your local potters
49:44
and understanding
49:45
that,
49:48
enjoyment of sake,
49:50
has many peripheral aspects,
49:53
not just the liquid itself.
49:55
Thank you so much for coming and talking
49:57
to us.
50:03
Bye.
50:20
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50:21
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50:23
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50:25
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50:28
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50:30
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50:33
Until then, Kanpai.
50:36
Sakian Air is made possible with generous support
50:39
of the Japan's Sakian Shochu Makers Association
50:41
and is broadcast from the Japan's Sakian Shochu
50:44
Information Center in Downtown Tokyo.
50:46
It is produced by Export Japan.
50:49
And our team is Shuso Imada, Justin Potts,
50:52
Arlene Lyons, Cindy Bissig, Chris Hughes, Chris Pellegrini,
50:56
John Gautner, Marie Nagata, Miho Ota, Rebecca Wilson
51:00
Lai, Sebastian Yuan, and me, Frank Walter.
51:04
Until next time,
51:06
comp
51:08
pie!