Latest / Sleeping Barber - A Marketing Podcast / SBP 237: The PostPod - Lessons from Ian Whittaker, Data is not the problem.

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SBP 237: The PostPod - Lessons from Ian Whittaker, Data is not the problem. · Sleeping Barber - A Marketing Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Sleeping Barber Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_04: You know what it comes down to?
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_04: Ian said this as well.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_04: That the board is a customer too.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_04: When you think about the board being a customer, what do we have to do as marketers?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_04: You know, A, make sure you're not just applying your own customer-centric principles internally.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Sleeping Barber Podcast, a place for business leaders to get the best and most credible information on marketing, strategy, and innovation.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Your hosts, Mark Binkley and Vasilis Duros, share their experiences as they gather insights from the world's leading experts.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now, on with the show.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's time for the postpod.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: Postpod, postpod.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: The Ian Whitaker postpod v.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: I walked away from that conversation and my mind was just spinning.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, Yes.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the risk part as a starting point.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, yeah, that's a really good point.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: I need to think more about that and the way that I frame it.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: We always frame budget as a like a lost opportunity for us, but never think of I never think of it as a risk to the business.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_04: No, no.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_04: Again, and what's interesting, it's coming from an analyst, right?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_04: That does this for a living.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: He's working with these people, and he gets to hear what they're saying behind closed doors, right?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_04: We don't, we never really get that vantage point because what we see is when the decision's made is the effect of that, the the cutting of the budgets or the changing of priorities, or whatever.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_04: But like we don't get to see all of that risk usually up front.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's really unique.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_04: And a very again, you said your head was spinning, my head was spinning yesterday, because I think I had a million more questions I wanted to go down and really kind of poke at because I think it gave us a very different view into how these boards think or these executives are thinking at any point at any point in time.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100%.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: I I mean, okay, well, what were like what were a couple of things that really or what was what the one thing that probably stood out most for you, would you say?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if it was the the only thing that stood out for me, but we've kind of talked about this, but I don't think we ever got into it in the same depth.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas he says, like, follow the incentives.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_04: So executive behavior becomes sorry, makes more sense once you understand what they're rewarded on or punished for.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that becomes something that I don't think I've ever asked any of my finance peers, like, hey, let me know, like, how are you actually being rewarded or punished on, or even from a business perspective, right?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_04: And I think if you can follow that incentive chain, then you can change the way that you're probably positioning a lot of your investments as well.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_04: And then he also talked about the two sides, but anyways, go ahead.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I just the the I'm just kind of picturing with the marketing association.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I run the I run I'm president and I run the the PL.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's one of the first times that I like fully end-to-end own all of that responsibility in a meaningful way.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like in I have to in a way that I have to report it because I've got board and I have to submit numbers for nonprofit status and all that kind of stuff.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it has to be right.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so, not just like me and my own accounting shoebox is what I'm saying.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's really interesting because just to take your point a level up and make it personal for me, I I need my first thought is like I need to control the costs.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: And that was literally like one of the first things I did.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, okay, where are we spending money that we shouldn't be?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: And what are we not using?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like we were just talking about Martech debt.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like, um what things are we buying that we're not using?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: Cut that.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Where are we investing in advertising or not advertising, other things that are just kind of frivolous or not part of how I need to manage the business?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like, let's cut that.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then constantly, like, there's things that creep in to the budget where I'm like, okay, well, how did that get there?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: Just you know, not not not for any bad reason, but you know, you sign up for something, a subscription or whatever, and you forget that you did it.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: And there's just all these kinds of things you're like constantly trying to keep the costs down.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it sort of shapes how I'm thinking about the a business and generally business overall.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, like costs are such a like if I'm trying to pro improve gross margin or net profit, like the cost part is a is a an evil thing to face.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's a worthy adversary.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_04: It is a worthy adversary.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's a very well, I like that you kind of made it personal there because it is I think back to the conversation we had with David Lewis, right?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_04: CMO gone CEO.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_04: I think again that he sh he basically said like anytime, Ian, you brought up in the in the in the interview with Ian, it's like anytime I can save money, that's a good thing for the business.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_04: So if you didn't use your marketing budget, that's okay.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's a good thing for us as a whole.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_04: And again, it's sometimes you were talking about echo chambers in our barber's brief earlier, earlier this week.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_04: But it what it comes down to is we have literally we as marketing sometimes live in our own echo chamber as a whole.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: And it's almost like we refuse to look at the state of the business as a reason why we're either being asked to do things or why we're not doing things.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: I yeah.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: As you were saying that, I was like, yeah, it's almost like that Sarah Carter line about customers don't give a shit, make that your starting point.
• 6:18
  unknown: Yeah.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like in this particular case, our customers are not to put it on all of them, but let's call it finance, finance department, accounting and finance.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: So we have to think about what they want and then try and figure out ways to communicate it.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: I thought his point around, or maybe he brought it up, but the point around vocabulary and grammar not being the same thing.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, or there being a mismatch was really interesting.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because we lead with things like oh ROI.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: ROI.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: We can do that, I can show that.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: I got you.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: But then it kind of falls apart because we don't have the right understanding of the mechanism and the influences that there that factor into an ROI calculation.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: And and so the grammar part kind of falls apart, I think.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: What was your take on that statement?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I first of all, I loved it.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_04: I I actually thought it could have been a great title for for the episode as well.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_04: But the fact that we yes, we have vocabulary that seems impressive, but you know, what we have to do is really learn capital allocation and the risk, not merely the financial terminology.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_04: And that's us again, us going a little bit deeper.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_04: And of course, you almost this is you know after the cameras started started stopped rolling.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_04: I know we talked to Ian a little bit longer.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I want to say like this is almost like a two-way road because there's a level of accountability that has happened on the finance side as well, where they're educating themselves.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_04: Of course, do I think it should be marketing that's extending that olive branch or the marketing the one that wants to take that initiative?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_04: But I can't not overlook what is the role of understanding true growth and someone that's sitting, a CFO that's sitting there making a lot of these decisions that could help impact.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_04: I think he called it a moat or you know, protecting the business.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_04: Or yeah, I think he used another analogy, like, you know, marketing is like uh is like the army, where you only really realize you need it when your defense budget kind of thing.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_04: So I think that's where I do think there's a lot of education that needs to happen on the CFO side as well, to understand what the low role of marketing actually looks like, too.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I mean, yeah, marketers learn capital allocation and understand the risk and just don't lean on just that financial terminology and think you've checked the box.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_04: Go a little bit deeper, but also and your CFO listening out there, get closer to your marketing people as well.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's funny because you talk thinking about like the two sides of the like risk versus opportunity, like of a of a marketing budget.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, even thinking about the language part and then your comment about like the understanding the the finance side.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like we go into these conversations and I fuck I'm guilty of it, man.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like I oh yeah, I go into conversations ROI.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: I've done that before.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do that.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: We can show that.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then I wonder if on the other side they're sitting there going, he can't prove ROI.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: Let's see this.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's see that happen.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: Let's see what happens, and then we'll just cut it eventually because there's no way they're gonna prove like I I don't know if that's the case, but that is a real possibility where we think we're so smart by saying a phrase like ROI, but then he actually, Ian actually said it's generally considered a really imperfect metric at best.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_04: Well, uh it's a ratio that can be improved by cutting.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_04: And that's that's in and of itself is like what's setting yourself up for failure.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: You want to show better what good, go ahead.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: I can do it really quick.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_04: Look at you.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_04: You didn't change anything.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_04: All I did was cut the budget.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_04: You're welcome.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: The other point you just made too, I want to just uh double click into is the idea that we have different perceptions of what advertising is and how it works.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: And and the education component, I think there's a two-way streak.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: There's it it'd be valuable to have finance educate us on what how they see the world.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: But similarly, it'd be valuable, I think, for marketing or even a third party to lead a session on our general accepted understanding of advertising principles.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: Because I don't think anybody sees it as the same way.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's a lot of people that have an opinion on how advertising works that have never really been in advertising, but just been around advertising.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: And explaining how advertising works is I think very different than like believing how it works.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think that would be an interesting thing for people to lead within their own organizations.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely something I'm working on with some clients and whatnot as well.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: But like it it's really an interesting conversation.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I think it what it comes down to, and Ian said this as well, that the board is a customer too.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_04: So when you think about the board being a customer, what do we have to do as marketers?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_04: You know, A, make sure you're not just applying your own customer-centric principles internally, right?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_04: In in isolation or in that echo chamber.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_04: It's like you need to understand the board priorities before presenting that marketing case.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_04: Because it's very easy for you to sit and say, here's how I see the world right now, and this is what we should do, versus, hey, what where are we, what do you guys actually need from us?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_04: And what is it that we need to achieve?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_04: And I think if you can bridge that gap, goes back to exactly what you were saying.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_04: It's like it's education is the under something that the through thread or it's underpinned across it all to ensure that everyone then is singing from that same song sheet.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_04: So I just it comes down to more communication, less isolations.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_04: Am I saying anything groundbreaking?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_04: Probably not.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_04: But at the same time, why do we still struggle with it?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: I know, and I think we have to be honest with ourselves, which we I think you and I have uh raised this question a few times with each other, but like we have infinite data.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: So why isn't it getting any easier to prove ROI?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like is it because we need more data than what we have?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: We know we've got AI now that can do all the data crunching super fast and super good and all those kinds of things.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, we have like superhuman intelligence at superhuman speed with infinite data, and yet we're still struggling with that.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe maybe ROI isn't the thing.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: And and DCF discounted cash flow might not be it either, but it's at least a better conversation, I think, because it weighs in the time lag of the impact of the things we're doing rather than just making what we're doing appear to be something that's the voting machine instead of the weighing machine.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_04: You know what we should do?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_04: We should find someone, a CFO, or someone that lives and breathes on like the the finance side, and take and bring them as a non-believer of marketing, and then bring them in and ask them all the questions.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_04: And build and and try to get try to get to the crux of what is it that we're doing wrong and their opinions.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_04: I want to crack this for the industry.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna solve our ROI, everyone.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna do it.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: Don't worry, we got this.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: Rest assured, sleep easy.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Sleeping marketers on the job.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: The bat signal is out or the scissors are out.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: That would be good.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: That would be good.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: I just I think that's a great conversation to have for sure.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_04: Two marketers and an accountant.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_04: Let's go.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: There's a there's an analogy that speaking of like I think thinking about CFOs, there's an analogy that he talked about at one point where you you've got a bridge.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's like crossing a bridge.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, right.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: The bridge, yeah.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: So there's different kinds of bridges, but then there's also different kind sizes of ravines or crevasses or whatever you have to cross.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, like I think that's an interesting thing for us to think about.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yes, we can build a bridge, right?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: And there's some language like ROI, maybe that helps you cross that bridge.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're crossing like a hundred, like an evil can evil.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: Grand Canyon.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: You probably don't want just a slack line with no security roam.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Probably not.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: You probably want something much bigger, more stable.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that was an interesting thing that he brought up about not just the the bridge part, but also the the the fear and the risk of and the depth of that crossing.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: And thinking about both those things.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because and the idea around DCF that I thought was interesting is the conversation that it could stimulate and that we are trying to find a better way to solve it.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: It might not be DCF, but it could be something like that.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: But as a starting point, what would it, what would it have to be true for that to make sense?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that helps you build, like assess both the size and scope of that can canyon or gap that you have to cross, and then what kind of bridge you need.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I agree with that.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_04: And that's where like it'd be great to really have this conversation with someone that could help maybe identify that.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_04: Like, hey, do you see DCF as being something valuable for marketers to start leaning more into an understanding?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_04: Or is ROI something that we need to do a better job understanding holistically and the role of marketing inside of that?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, like it the one thing I have to say, coming out of that conversation, I think had me thinking a lot differently about how I see things and how I should be asking questions, both internally and in my organization, but also just understanding a little bit more, getting marketers closer to that business is so paramount.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_04: But I don't know, it was just such a refreshing conversation.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was great.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, really appreciate your time, Ian, and your thoughts and insights and just being open with us and having that conversation.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, absolutely.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_04: And for those listening, thanks again for keeping us in your ears.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_04: Stay sharp, everyone.