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148: Jimmy Gavin - When the Ball Stops Bouncing: Navigating Life After Seven Years in European Basketball · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Back then as an athlete.
• 0:01
  Speaker 1: How did you do that?
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: How did you manage to balance the ego with that need to be a teammate?
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I did it super well.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: I think it was like it was a battle for me because the ego and fueling myself and building this character up is what made it possible, and then I think it was hard to shed it.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: So I think, like old habits die slow right, Like that saying where it's, you'll recognize this pattern.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: But it took time where I started to have the same things like bumping head with coaches or having disagreements with teammates, and eventually it's like okay, man, you're like, you're the common denominator in all these situations and I don't think I became a leader until maybe like year six of my pro career and even then I think leadership's like an evolving process.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: But I think the hardest thing for me is I don't think you can lead until you're be a willing follower.
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty.
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: Elite athletes are still people after all.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Jimmy, I want to welcome you to the Career Clarity Second Wind Academy podcast.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me today.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: It's an honor man.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: We've been wanting to do this for a while, so glad we can make it work.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: We have, and I've just been saying how good you look in the Chicago podcast studio.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: So you look like you're the host.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: So if you want to ask me any questions, that's cool, we can flip.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: No, tom and his crew here at Chicago are great, so I appreciate them having me.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, good man, good man.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: But look, I'm definitely excited to jump in today.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I know we've been chatting a while and, as you said, we've had a few tech issues as well, trying to make this a recording.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to delve a bit into your story.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Listen, I think there's so much that people listening can learn from what you're going through.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: I'll say you know, sort of live, but really that transition journey from that elite athlete into well, actually I'm going to say probably dunking and doing three pointers and everything in the life that follows.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: So listen, for those who don't know, you just tell us a bit about what's going on with you nowadays.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: I think elite is a stretch that's generous, but I would say definitely a passionate athlete.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: If I had to tell you in 10 seconds, I played seven years of pro basketball in Europe.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Prior to that I never played high school.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: That's like my claim to fame.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: However much I have, however little, but somewhere in between played with a lot of cool people, a lot of good coaches, a lot of ups and the downs and I guess at some point the ball stops bouncing for all of us.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: So that's why I'm excited to talk with you.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: You've done some really cool stuff with working with athletes and building second careers, so happy to talk about all of that.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, brilliant.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: I love the humility.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: This is great.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: You know what percentage of individuals around the world would love to be a pro baller.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: How many make it?
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: The fact you got seven years there, I think, is exceptional.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: It certainly got you to travel and see different parts of the world, and today you're no longer a player.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: What's your?
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: What sort of job?
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: What's your career at the moment?
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: My title right now is Director of Sport Initiatives for Goldfinch Capital here in Chicago.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Group of brothers, super successful in pharmaceutical sales, also share a passion for sport, somehow have recruited me over and we're starting up some projects together.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: So super pumped about that.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: I mean it's an opportunity I would have never foreseen happening.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: It just kind of happened through a series of relationships.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, if I never would have met this trainer specifically named Jeff at that time and then cross paths with these dudes, I mean I wouldn't be sitting here.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, love that.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: That's exactly what this is about, I think, for so many, certainly athletes, but definitely everyone else out there.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: We always think that career path has to be so well-defined and so well-determined, and what you've described there is one that is I don't know perhaps more getting yourself in the right place at the right time and establishing those relationships.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, did you know this kind of role in this industry existed, I don't know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago?
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: No, I had no idea Probably the least qualified person working in private equity in the United States of America, but I'll take it, and relationships are the only reason I'm able to do this, and I think it was.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: It's a series of steps.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, I've known this group of people for over 10 years now and now it's turned into a working relationship, but in the past it was a friendship, it was talking basketball.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: So my trainer, jeff Pagliacca, works up in the North Suburbs.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: He became one of the premier basketball trainers in the Chicagoland area.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Now he's actually the GM of the Chicago Sky, the women's professional team, which is pretty cool.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: For whatever reason, uzi Omer Aman, this group of three brothers, convinced him that they could train with him, right?
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: So every morning they're training, like three days a week for 15 years.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: These guys are working business jobs, but instead of walking on a treadmill, they're like wait, we want to hoop, like we want to shoot three pointers, we want to drive to the paint, and so I would start talking with these guys.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: We might work out after them, they would work out before us.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: But I'm like these guys are an anomaly, right, they're business guys.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: They don't really fit the type Everyone else in the gym is either pro or college athletes, and so we struck up a friendship along the years and that's how it started, yeah.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: I think that is amazing.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, you talk about being the least qualified person in private equity and then you jump into relationships and what it feels like those guys who you speak with, those brothers.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: It's about relationship.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: It was about them being themselves and that's what hit things off and it's like that's what has created not this opportunity for you, but I'm sure their success is based on the relationships that they have formed over the years and maybe that's something you're naturally good at.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: I think, lucky.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: I think I'm lucky because I've had a lot of people who invested in my career, which is why I got to be a pro and got to be a college player.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: But they're the type of people that give you a direct opinion.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: They work super hard, they're disciplined, they're great role models for me and this opportunity came about because they wanted to get involved in college athletics and, as that came about, when I finished playing, I finished playing about like a year, year and a half ago, and my younger brother, grant, is awesome in tech sales.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: So he's been working with Okta it's like a digital security company and he's done really well.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: So actually what happened is younger bro got big bro a job.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Somebody had reached out to him and he was happy in his position.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: So he was like, I'm happy where I'm at, but my brother's a mess.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: Take a look at him, he needs to do something.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: So I ended up jumping into a role in tech sales, did that for about a calendar year and it was a struggle.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: It was a struggle, ryan, like just the lifestyle the schedule.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: You know I want to.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: I'm going to come back to that because I think that is something that is is really fascinating about how you got those roles and how you moved into that, stepped in that career after after sport and certainly how you were feeling and those emotions that you went through.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: I want to go back.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: I want to build a bit of context just for my understanding about where you were really coming from.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: So talk me through, as you were growing up, what was sport like for you?
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to piece together that journey about where you became.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: So what was it like for you when you're growing up and doing sport?
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, sport was everything from daily life to a dream, the thing you watched on TV, the thing you played in the street.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: The first thing was had a basketball in my crib from my dad.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: He placed it there, kind of placed the dream inside my heart.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: At the same time, we had parents who didn't really push us to sports but also worked super hard to make sure we had the opportunities to try.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: So that's how it started.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: By eight years old I was recruited to play travel baseball with NFL QB Jimmy Garoppolo, miles Osei one of the best athletes if not the best athlete I ever played with, just the type of man he is.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: Now he's a high school football coach, incredible leader.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: So, yes, I mean, sports are just something we did, I guess, because we liked it.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: You know, like we played street hockey, we played basketball just because it was fun, and then obviously, as things went on, I had some other hurdles that got in the way or helped me.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: It depends what type of perspective you take on it.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Talk to me about those hurdles, and what perspective did you take?
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: At the time, I mean I started getting sick around seventh grade or sixth seventh grade, Everyone else was growing.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: I was like shrinking, I was super small.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: So my original perspective was this sucks, I'm smaller than everybody, I'm slower than everybody, and uh and I'm watching my uh sports career go out the window.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: And then, um, over time, sophomore year, like like long story short, I ended up getting diagnosed with Crohn's disease.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: It's an autoimmune disease, affects like your stomach and your growth and stuff like that.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: And so high school ended up being a wash, got cut from my high school team junior year and, uh, leaving high school, that was it.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: I thought sports were done.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: I mean that's pretty intense because you know you talk there about this passion for sport growing up and it sounds like just on the street you're playing with some awesome athletes.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: You know you're with some great individuals.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: So there you're in high school, you're playing basketball.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: You're doing something that you love to do.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Your body's telling you it can't actually do that.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: I mean that's pretty tough.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: What was the biggest struggle for you at that point?
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: The biggest struggle was didn't have a purpose, didn't have a North Star.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: Sports was the North Star, you know.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Try to make the team, try to get better, try to win the championship.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: It's very goal oriented.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: It's just watch sports after practice.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: You just naturally know what you're going to do, like that's what I'm trying to do, and then I guess, to just get it, get that ripped away so early on, then just confusion, just confusion and not having direction.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: That was the initial reaction.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: And so that lack of direction you're mentioning there you left.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: You then leaving school, you graduating from high school.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: What were you thinking of doing next?
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: No sport.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: What was the next path for you?
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: Initially I didn't have.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: I didn't have a plan.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, like when I left high school I chose to go to Mississippi State it's in Starkville, mississippi and there wasn't much of a plan besides, for nobody knew me down there, so they didn't know me as like the failed athlete.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: It was just like, all right, I'm just go, I'm gonna go over here and just try to figure it out and that's what I did.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: I wanted to leave basketball and all that stuff like crush dreams behind, but still got pulled back and started playing intramural balls, like ended up practicing with the women's team and somehow I stayed in touch with it.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: But then we had a tragic accident in our family.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: So honestly at that point, who knows, I could have just went that way for a while and seen who I developed into without sport.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: But spring of my freshman year get a call from my dad my younger brother's in a car accident he doesn't make.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: It shakes our family to our core and that's like a giant dot on your life's timeline, right, like it's who you were before that and who you were after.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's big, that's pretty dramatic and, like you say, that does shape you.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: How did that change and what impact did that sense have then on your trajectory around?
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking about your sport, your career something.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: I guess it was like even deeper into the detachment and over time that spilled over into just a breakdown, I'd say so, like I said, in the short term it was just nothing.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: It was just I don't know.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: It's hard to even come up with the word, but what's the word when just nothing makes sense?
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: Just whatever you want to call it Chaos, nothingness, darkness.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I had an episode where I guess you could say, for lack of better words, like I lost my mind for a short period of time.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: But again, I had something to fall on.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: I had a family that helped me get some, some tools into recovery and through that was a reigniting of my purpose, which was to become a basketball player.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: Didn't really know the steps I was going to take, didn't know where to go and, honestly, the biggest thing I was also scared of like what if I went after it and gave it everything I got and didn't make it?
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: But the one thing I will give myself credit for is I tried.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah Well, you tried and, like you said, you've got this fear.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: You had this fear about okay, you had this new purpose, this new North Star to aim for.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: You had a fear that you would fail.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: Perhaps I'll say fail again, but you didn't.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: So I'm curious you didn't know what you were going to do, but what did you actually do?
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: As you look back now, what were the steps you took?
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if I look back now, it was still a combination of A putting myself out there and B meeting people along the way.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: So start putting in the work, use what I had.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I was going to a JUCO at the time.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: I was just taking classes by my house, started running hills, started playing pickup, started dribbling around chairs.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: Next thing, you know, I meet Kyle Mikulash, a guy I used to know from youth basketball, and he's like dude, like what are you doing?
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: You're playing basketball all the time.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: It looks like you're in decent shape.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: And he connected the dots for me.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: He introduced me to a dude named Steve Pratt.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: He's a well-known basketball trainer in our area and that was like the next step of my training.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: I showed up day one at Steve's gym and I was like suddenly I was doing like better drills right, because I'm surrounded by some other people who want to get better.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: And we sat in like these metal bleachers after the first practice.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: I'm like Steve, like I want to be a college basketball player, and he's like he's like, all right, let's try to figure it out.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: So just like that, and I say that just like that.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: It's just like that, where you're talking about showing up, mixing with the right people and putting in the hard work, and those are really simple things that you did in terms of hey, you had this passion, you had this north star.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: You're showing up, of hey, you had this passion, you had this North star.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: You're showing up in the right place.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: You're connecting with people who know what to do and you voiced what you wanted.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: You went and you met with this coach and you told him what you wanted to do.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: It sounds like you whispered hey, I want to be a coach.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I whispered.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: I think, I think, I think.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: I was a little stubborn and because there was days when, when actually like a memorable day, like Steve was really generous with his time, right, like he wasn't really even charging me, he liked my passion and and he'd probably tell a story better than me.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: But one day, like he's setting up this drill and Steve's like a mastermind for for player development and everything.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: And uh, he's setting up a drill and I'm like I'm like questioning him and he's like dude, who are you?
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Like you're, you're a nobody.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: He's like he kicked me out in the parking lot and he's like hey, jim, why don't you, why don't you go out there and cool off for a second?
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: And you can, you can run the drills how you want out there.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: So I didn't know if I seriously.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: What else did you have going?
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Did you have?
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: a plan B no, if this doesn't work then hey, I'm doing it, no no, no, there was, I'm going to make it to the NBA, I'm going to like.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: It was just like this is all I got, and the deeper I got into it.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: That was I just went deeper into plan A because I ended up going to tryouts around the country Somehow I get a spot on Bradley as a walk-on Right.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: And even when I got to Bradley I had a.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: I had a medical crisis, had to have a surgery.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: But when I saw Bradley, I saw how, how badly these dudes wanted it too, and I think part of myself was like, oh, like, just because I want this, like everyone around me is going to want this for me too.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: But that just wasn't the case.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Not necessarily that everyone was against you, but like they're also like trying to build their own dreams and stuff, and so I had to learn more about that.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: I had to learn about people who are in more diverse group of people in sports, right, like, not everyone grows up how you grow up and you got to understand how to relate to people, and also there's an element of like fear, like fearing what you don't know.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: So the next step in my development was like I need to go to every park, every hood, every area in the city and, like I got to be the guy who's just willing to go against anybody, because that that really wasn't natural.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: You know, I think a lot of times, like, wherever you grow up is like how you operate, right, and I was like, if I'm going to do this, I got to want this badder than like, like anything, like I got to put my life on the line for this plan to work.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it sounds like you kind of did and to the point you know it succeeded.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: You got into college, you achieved that part of the dream.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: You then talk about wanting to.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: You mentioned there that that path to NBA, you know in terms of that professional league, talk to me about that.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Where did that hit off?
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: I think it was just I started getting momentum and there was a lot of like micro failures and successes along the way.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: Of course it wasn't just like linear, but I had, I had like a good couple of years at D2.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: I got a division one offer and when I got to campus, like my coach was like you think they're ready for you, and I was like who, he's like the MBA and he's like I was talking about like the conference and I'm like you know F the conference, you know like I'm trying to go.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: But I think one part of it that was good was that because I was always like one part delusional, one part putting the work in it, kind of almost in a way it was like it made me feel like I was better than the opportunity I had, which is, I think, in some ways a dangerous mentality.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: But also there's something special about it where it's like this irrational confidence that at least gets you in the door and maybe from the outside, looking in, people were like so is there something wrong with this guy?
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: There's a few screws missing.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: But from the inside it was like yeah, I'm supposed to succeed here, because I'm going to repeat what I just did, I'm going to exceed, I'm going to overachieve, and then I'm going to crash through the next door.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if that's the right way to do it, but I think there's something there to just give it a try.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Right way, wrong way, doesn't really matter.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: What's interesting, and I'm just sort of sitting a bit in my mind, is I'm looking at this equation One part put in the work plus one part delusional and you know you talk about that in some respects made you feel better than the opportunity made perhaps made you feel better than you were, but you actually needed that to push you, in order to keep you there, to feel you amongst where you.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: You know the opposite would be this imposter type syndrome.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: What you're talking about is no.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: I about is no.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be here, this is where I belong.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's like trying to convince yourself right, it's like countering the imposter syndrome, which is like filling yourself up with belief, which I think is a good thing, and I think it did work for me.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: But I think there's a limitation on how far that can carry you, Because from my experience, the higher level you go, like everyone becomes more and more qualified.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Where it's like, that's like the part where becoming a pro and playing overseas was like okay, this is like about taking this stuff that worked, and also like trying to actually start hearing some critical feedback and building up some of that self-awareness, because it's like at some level it's like okay, dude, like we don't need the, the irrational, like role player, like we need a guy who knows what, knows what he can and can't do.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: And I think, as you learn that sometimes it's about pushing those limits, like okay, like I overdid it a little bit here, but you do kind of find your equilibrium, which is like okay, this is what I'm good at and that's how you raise the quality of your performance, which is a.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: I don't want to have so much self-awareness that I lose my confidence and I lose my boldness, which I think happened to me at times and then at the same time you want to still show up like within a team, be dependable and kind of lock into your role.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: So when you think back then as an athlete.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: How did you do that?
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: How did you manage to balance the ego with that need to be a teammate?
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I did it.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I did it super well.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: I think it was like it was a battle for me, because the ego and fueling myself and building this character up is what made it possible, and then I think it was hard to shed it.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: So I think, like old habits die slow, right, like that saying where it's, you'll recognize this pattern.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: But it took time where I started to have the same things like bumping head with coaches or having disagreements with teammates, and eventually it's like okay, man, you're like, you're the common denominator in all these situations.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: And I don't think I became a leader until maybe like year six of my pro career and even then I think leadership's like an evolving process.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: But I think the hardest thing for me is I don't think you can lead until you're be a willing follower.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: And that was a hard pill for me to swallow.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: I think, like to show that you're a follower.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Then when you're called upon during the season, your voice is going to carry a different weight because it's like, okay, you're echoing the coach's message, you're hearing dudes, but at the same time you're showing up with your heart.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: And then when you do have something to say, it's like yeah, we're going to hear this out.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: He's been riding with us this whole time, that's when, I think, started like my voice started to be heard in a better way.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: So talk to me a bit about that pro career.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Where did that leapfrog?
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Where did that come from?
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Leaving Winthrop, I had a good season.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: It was my last year of college basketball.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I had enough to do a series of NBA draft workouts, which was definitely a highlight of my career Just being in the building.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Golden State Warriors, memphis Grizzlies, orlando Magic played well enough at least to make some noise and made a summer league roster which didn't go great Like I mean, I wasn't used to sitting the bench for so long, like I was playing 35 minutes a game and again, that was an adjustment.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Like the coach, when you jump a level, like he doesn't always want to see what you you did to get there, you know, like he's seeing you in a new role and how quickly you can, you know, shut the F up and do what they need you to do is helpful which, like I said, it's not always easy.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: And so when I, when I got cut from the NBA, then you know I had an agent.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: He signed me to Lithuania for my rookie season.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a different world.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: It was a different world adjusting to European basketball.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: At the beginning I kind of hated it.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, you played, you were a professional athlete yourself in Europe, so you know how those training sessions can get a little bit long and tire some, but I ended up loving it.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Over time Grew to love it yeah.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Well, here's that thing right.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: You are moving from a path that you know, the US system, or at least the path that you recognize.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: You're seeing on TV when your agent comes and says to you Lithuania, there's me struggling to say it today, but when your agent's telling you that, one, did you know where it was?
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Two, did you know what the style of play was going to be like?
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: I had a teammate from Latvia, like the northern neighbor of Lithuania, so I knew like the region of where it was Style of play.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: I had a warning that the coach was going to be tough but I was disappointed going overseas because I really wanted to make the NBA and I think that also hurt me.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: It's like how fast can you move past disappointment and get back locked into what you got in front of you?
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: But at the time it's hard.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: It's easy to say now like oh man, I could have got past that faster.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: But while you're going through it it's difficult to deal with those swings of emotions in sports.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: It was definitely a rude awakening.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I mean they dropped me off at a Ukrainian run hostel the night before practice and they're like all right, we'll see you at 7 am for judo practice.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: We started doing martial arts the next morning.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: What's funny about that to me?
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: so I've just got this visual of six foot four to seven foot guys doing judo, yeah and getting and getting and getting tossed around by the national champion of lithuania and just getting tossed around and, uh, you know, the assistant coach hated it so much he didn't even want to come to the practice.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: But the the head coach.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: You know, the craziest thing is, the head coach was, uh, he was a really good coach, but it was hard to feel like that when he was just he was so tough like that.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: It was like you kind of hated him.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: But it's almost like the great coaches you have like a little bit of hate for because they're pushing you so hard where you end up growing a ton, but in the day to day you're like, dude, this sucks.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Thinking about that first year, this new environment, this new structure.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: You say it was tough for a few reasons.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: You know the travel it's not the NBA.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: Did you overcome it?
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: You know what was that year like for you.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: The rookie season was really good, even though, like a few times I was at tears, I wanted to leave the team.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: It was definitely difficult not to like just gloss over those things.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: I had learned a lot.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Gediminas Naviscus he was a shooting guard on our team.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Alex he had a Spanish point guard.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: These dudes were great role models and they always worked out together.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: They were great professionals.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Geddy's, actually the GM of the EuroLeague team.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Zalgiris now, and at the beginning of the season, like they thought I was garbage, honestly, because it was like I was just a rookie and veteran players don't really want to deal with all the mistakes that you're going to make because they're like, hey, I'm trying to win right now, but by the end of the season Getty had said that I was the most improved guy on the team and stuff like that.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: So I earned their respect.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: I would say and that's what made me feel good about that season, because it was hard but I got something out of it.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: Year two and three overseas, I can't say the same.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: It was kind of a mess with like A insurance companies medicines trying to prove I was something I'm not.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: I dealt with that of like trying to prove the teams that I'm like this point guard because I felt like I would be more marketable and just had to go through those bumps and bruises of like, hey man, this is who you are, you know, do what you do and whatever your ceiling ends up being like, at least you're going to be productive and feel proud of your career.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: But that took a long stretch to get to that.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: So during the first year you settled.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: You managed to.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: It was tough but you were able to go through it.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: You were able to get the performances and improve and show who you were.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: You say more marketable.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: So as you started progressing those next couple of years, you were looking to make yourself more marketable as a point guard.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: To what end?
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: What were you trying to, or where are you trying to market yourself?
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: I was just doing too much looking at where this guy is, this guy like trying to like overthink it, like okay, because of my size, if I could do this or that, but like that stuff in the end doesn't really work.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: You know, like you just got to work on your game and I think if you can just do what the person is asking you to do well, protect your reputation, build your reputation, like the steps are going to unfold in front of you.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: As soon as you start to like plan out the steps, like you're going to play God on your career or your future, it's like I think it gets tough.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: But at the time I was thinking, okay, if I have any chance to get back to the NBA at six foot two, like I'm going to have to be a primary ball handler.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Only problem I wasn't a good enough ball handler and also I wasn't a good enough defender.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: So it's like you can't really I don't know.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Like, uh, one of my friends, zach, like he has a great saying, like you got to use your strengths to create advantages for yourself and others.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: And I think at some point that was like the commitment.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: It's like hey, like you're a good shooter, you can do this and kind of like, let's put more of the emphasis on on what you can do as a player, whereas I think I had spent so much time trying to like, prove to people that my weaknesses weren't weaknesses, that I started to just not even do the things I can do and then I had like zero, zero market as a player, because it's like, hey, this guy's not even making shots, he's not doing the things that he can do, because I'm trying to prove that I can do these other things.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: You pushed yourself so much to do these other bits that you kind of lost sight of what made you a good player, what actually got you the contracts in the first place.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: So when you look now at your career from when you started to recognize, hey, actually, this is who I am.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Let me hone those skills instead.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: You know, talk to me about what, then, were the highlights of your career whilst playing overseas.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: I think from year four to year seven was the highlight in totality because of the commitment to being myself.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: And then what started happening is I was honest with myself and then I started to meet coaches and people who were more happy with me because they wanted me for the role which I was good at, and it was just more of a synergy.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: And then rebuilding it the second time it felt even I don't know maybe even like more intentional or maybe it started to touch at more of the things that I was really searching for, like deeper in my life.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Because I guess some people would say, like I don't know, like at what point do you deserve to be proud of yourself, right, is it?
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Is it like how much, how much money you made, career earnings, or like I guess I had achieved a lot to some people and to others probably not a lot.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Like they think Europe is semi-pro or this or that.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Like ultimately, you're never going to be able to convince people that what you did like is valid.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: But I think, during that second time when never going to be able to convince people that what you did is valid, but I think during that second time when I started to play how I can play.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: I started to earn respect again with my teammates and try to work through some of these things like bumping heads with coaches.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Like trying to build some self-awareness cues.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: Like by the last year, going into the last year of my career, I had three rules like follow the coach, connect with my teammates, take care of yourself.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Like just forget everything else.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Like I don't care if you're the MVP or the all-star of the league.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Like show up to the gym ready to work with like these these non-negotiables, and just enjoy the freaking game.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: You know, because like it's almost like I got more enjoyment out of it later and I felt like I was a better player and we had won the championship the year prior in Netherlands with a good group of dudes, and I guess those are the memories that stand out.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: Do I have some hallmark moment to stamp my career with?
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Like I was this or I was that, I don't know.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Maybe to other people I do, maybe I don't, but I think, as I've processed my career through these last couple of years, I think what I finished my career was was that finally, like I'm proud of myself?
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: And I don't know if that's, you know, I think that's something that I was searching for for a long time because I mean, maybe, if I like, it would have been great if I made $100 million and I could have given something back to my parents or, you know, created some foundation or there's.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: There's a ton of stuff that I would love to do and it would still like to do.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: But ultimately, like, coming from a place of of pride in yourself doesn't mean that you're you're satisfied with where you are in life.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: But it's like hey, hey man, like with all the parameters and and everything we had against us, like we overcame some obstacles, we worked on some stuff.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: It might never be finished, but like that's what I take away from it.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: Basketball was a chance to learn how to train, like it was a training ground for life.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: And now it's like let's keep figuring out, like these different gems and things that people have given me, and keep unlocking new levels.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: I think that's brilliant, absolutely wonderful to hear and thanks for sharing.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: You know how your perspective on your playing career and yourself shifted, you know, across those seven years, across that time whilst you were overseas, and it really become.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: It became much more intrinsic.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: It became much more about how you feel about yourself, and your definition of success here sounds about pride pride in yourself and pride in what you've done and your three sort of rules there of you know, listening to the coach, showing up for your team and looking after yourself.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: I think those three can probably resonate and as we look into this next chapter, this, you know your second wind in your career as well.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: So tell me then, during that period, at what point did you realize, hey, this is going to end, my basketball career is not going to go on forever?
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: In the years.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: In year seven I actually felt like I was playing my best basketball, but like halfway through the season I started having like complications with my health.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: But like halfway through the season I started having like complications with my health and so I had made a commitment to myself that every year I got to be making more money, I got to be healthy Like there has to be a reason to continue, right.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: So I kind of made like this little deal with myself that as long as I'm progressing, enjoying and advancing that, I'm going to just keep going, kind of till the wheels fall off.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: But then the wheels fell off, so it was like the complications got a little bit more serious and I did finish my commitment to the team.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: But by like the end of the season I mean like I was pretty pretty much in rough shape like my medicine and stopped working and like I mean we could save people the details.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: But it was just from a health perspective.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: It was time to like consider that and you know, running around from Russia and Netherlands, greece, like I ended up touching 20, 30 countries with basketball and like also with the Crohn's and the medicines, it definitely was like it put some stress on my career and it got to a point where, like I didn't want to give it up, and even like that next season, like when my coach called me I was like you know, I was like ready to get on a plane and get back over there, but that was like it was kind of like a forced decision, but I think I was able to accept it because of the things we talked about like in the last segment, which was I had to reach something in myself which gave me like some level of peace.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: So that acceptance, accepting, okay, this isn't.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: I'm not going into year eight, I'm not going to keep going on.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: What had you planned, you?
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: I'm not going into year eight, I'm not going to keep going on.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: What had you planned?
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: You're like okay, so what are you going to do?
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: I really hadn't planned anything.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: I'd planned to keep playing, so it was kind of just like run and gun on the fly with it.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Like that summer I was still talking with agents about potential jobs but at the same time my body was.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: I wasn't really in the shape to play.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: I actually ended up getting an opportunity with a coach in Illinois Coach Mullins to do a grad assistant role as a coach.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Only problem, like, when I got down there it really wasn't much different than playing and I hadn't solved for the health issues.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: So I backed out of the commitment.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, it was like it was a great group of guys and that was kind of agonizing in a way, because obviously you don't want to not finish what you started.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: But yeah, man, when I left that opportunity, I had an idea for a book and the next two weeks I spent writing day and night.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: I wrote 50,000 words, yeah, and I think that helped me process a lot of my career as well.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: Whatever that turns into is like we'll see, but it definitely was interesting.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: What made you decide to write a book?
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: And actually, how do you know how to write a book?
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't think, I don't know that.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know that I know how to write a book, but when I was on the plane looking down, I saw something visually that just made me want to like capture what I was feeling.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: And I don't even know that it was like a pleasant feeling.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: It was almost like feeling like this huge, long commitment to basketball.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: It was like being like ripped out of my heart, like I can't play it, I can't coach it, I don't know what I'm going to do, and I was like the words kind of just poured out of me, you know, like stream of conscious style, and just started to just capture that feeling, I guess, as a way to commemorate, is that a word?
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Or like to hold on, hold on to the feeling, like hold on to the feeling, like, like what if I never get a chance to feel like the roar of a crowd again?
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Or like make a pass to you and you hit a corner three, and just like that connection on the court, like I felt it slipping away and as I'm just like punching the keys and stuff like that, I'm like I don't know, like I'm just, I'm just like punching the keys and stuff like that, I'm like I don't know, like I'm just, I'm just grabbing for it, you know.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: So it doesn't, doesn't leave me.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: That's a cool way of thinking about it.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're writing almost a career memoir at this young age.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Like you say, part commiseration, part trying to hold onto that memory or document.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Where's that now, where?
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Where is that manuscript now?
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: It's in the uh, the trash can behind me here, like no, but uh, uh, I don't know.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: I'll say this when I started it it was really bitter Actually I'm, like you know, it was like kind of like trying to find comedy, bitterness like.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: But I've worked with like a couple of people on it, you know, and editors and stuff, and I think, like as the iterations have happened, like I've also seen kind of like the cool parts of the like you know, remembering like all the people that helped me, and so I think it's in a space right now where it's a good collection of stories.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: I just I don't feel like it's a book yet that I'm comfortable sharing with people.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: I think it's going to take a little bit more work.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that's years down the road process or I guess I just want to keep iterating till I find the sweet spot and like yeah, this is it, and like when I get there I'm going to share it with everyone.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: But I think what I've realized is I want to keep finding more avenues to create and help people, and I think a book is one avenue, but talking with you today is another avenue and I don't know that any one avenue is going to satisfy those like creative desires.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: So I think it's just keep creating, keep doing stuff, see what people relate to and then, kind of, you know, travel further down that path.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that sense.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that sense.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: You've recognized there's an element of creativity in your world in the way that you think, and I suppose right now you're talking about a feeling.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: It's a sense that there's not one avenue is going to satisfy you.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: What you need is some sort of portfolio in many respects, and that's the type of thing that you're searching for now.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a, there's a sense of like a high in creativity which I think I get a feeling which I think is similar to like the drug of playing basketball.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Right, like, I don't like.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: It's like you go on the court and it's a battle and it's like is this dude going to like kill you?
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: Are you going to kill him?
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: It's like there's like that you know what I mean.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: There's like I mean you know from playing sports.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: There's just like this heightened sense of awareness where it's almost like pinnacle of that too.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you're right.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: It's interesting.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Gavin, who joined me on the show a couple of weeks ago, a week ago, it's fascinating.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: He talks a lot about that, a lot of the thing that we crave when we stop being an athlete, a player, isn't the doing the thing, but it's that feeling, it's that sense, it's the emotions that flow with it, which is exactly what you've talked about that outpouring into 50,000 words of emotions and memories of this sense, and it feels like that's such a great thing to do emotionally as we retire.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what we do with it, but you've captured it and it's there.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: It's a time capsule for you.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think writing when I had originally gone through therapy, I used to write a lot and crumple it up and throw it out it's definitely an element of like a therapeutic process to write, because it's like maybe you're writing to unknow some stuff or to declutter Somehow.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: We have all this stuff in us as humans, right, and we need to channel, like like the soul we have in us, or the knowledge or, honestly, sometimes the anger or like the more negative emotions.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: The better we learn to channel it, the more free becomes, like the body and I, you know, I think it's a better alignment and then it's like I can show up better to to my job, or I can show up better to whatever else I'm doing.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: So you I'm now sort of really getting into just trying to understand this transition phase that you're now in, but I'm trying to get that start, so getting this grad coaching role, writing that therapeutic, emotional piece of writing, like I said, because it just didn't work out.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: So I moved back to Chicago to do the medical treatment stuff and then, in the process, like I said, we touched on it early.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: My brother, my brother's unbelievable in tech sales, probably the best young salesperson in the world I mean, I'm biased, but if you find somebody better, feel free to put him up against him.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Grant Gavin is his name, so search him on LinkedIn, you know.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Anyways, he had Jenna, who ended up becoming my manager, had reached out to him and so she was super cool.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: She played high school basketball and I was pretty unsure of if I could do the role and I think she sensed that as well.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: But they gave me an opportunity.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: It was a cool company.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: It's called Travel Perk and the founder's name is Avi.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: He's from, he's living in Barcelona, and so it was a unique company.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Like it was travel based, so I felt like I had something to share with with my travels and stuff like that.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: But it was tough, dude.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: I mean you go from showing up to practice with a group of 10, 12 guys that you know super well to working like more, like strict hours and like being on the screen all the time.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: But it was good.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: I'm happy I did it.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: You got to run discovery calls with with customers and uh learn how to ask more like leading questions and try to stay on on top of the CRM Like uh, I don't, I don't forget what that means Customer management software something like that.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the customer relationship management.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: What was the hardest thing about doing that job of success?
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: And then it's like you're like trying to show like by doing like some busy work, that you're trying, but like I didn't see a future in it.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: So it was like it was just hard to navigate because it's like I wanted to do right by my manager because she gave me the opportunity and again I made like really good relationships in the company.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Like I'm happy I did it, but I just I wasn't, I wasn't good at it.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: And everyone says like, um, I guess like sports prepares you for business, but the thing is it's it's not as easy as it sounds.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Right, I guess there's some like uh, things you learn that can be like transferred into business, but it's not like a direct path.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Like nobody asked me to shoot three pointers or play a pick and roll when I was at the office.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: It was like, so I yeah, it was, it was definitely a struggle.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: So the hardest bit you're saying is that you weren't good at it.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it humbles you, you know, yeah, cause you're like no, I was going to.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: I was going to say because, like now you're like, okay, I was 33 years old, I'm working a job that I should have been working when I'm 21, coming out of college.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: So you're like in this entry level role as like and like you know, slightly older person, and you know, it's kind of like embarrassing in a way, like you're like starting all over again.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: It's like all the dues you paid to become a leader in basketball kind of go out the window.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: And now you're like this entry level, like employee again.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: And and now you're like this entry level, like employee again, and you're also doing something that you're not very good at.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: So, like, when I look at my mirror and I look at myself in the mirror, I'm like who am I anymore?
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Right, like I don't.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: I have, like you know, random clothes on.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: I'm not putting on practice jerseys and you're going through like this shedding of identity and uh, it's weird.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: It is weird.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: What I hear in you is a similar language to when you got on the plane and went into Lithuania, where you're coming from, a place where you're known and you know what this path is to, somewhere that has bits that are familiar.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: The court's the same size, there's a ball here, you speak with people, but it doesn't feel right.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: It is different, the management's different, the instruction's different.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you see that or have heard that, but I'm hearing this commonality in the way that you're describing that feeling.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, how did you get through that?
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: you know the first three months, first six months of the role just try to keep showing up and like do the best I can.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: But I think it was.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: I was kind of like going down personally through the thing Like I wasn't.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: I wasn't in a super good place mentally while I was doing it.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: It was a big challenge and, um, yeah, I.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Just one thing I think that helped is so I started to communicate with the people who I'm working with now and I think that was a huge I don't know what you call it.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: It was a huge lift because, uh, so Uzman, the oldest brother, called me and he's like Jimmy, like can you coach our basketball tournament?
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: They're like he wanted me to play and I had kind of uh, just like taking a break from basketball, like didn't really want to be around it, didn't want to be a part of it, Cause I'm like, if I can't be a part of it, the way I'm used to being a part of it, like I don't want to see.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you went through something like that, but I know, I know what you're talking about there.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: It's like if I'm playing, I'm playing, I'm going to be the best that I can possibly be.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, and then, like once you lose that sense of it's like either like I'm doing it or I'm not, and then so, but he was like come on, dude, just do something with us, right?
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: So I ended up coaching the tournament and like I really liked it.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: You know, like I I really liked it and I think in a lot of ways I was kind of like against coaching or against like some other form of being involved with basketball, but like I couldn't deny that, like it was super energizing, like being a part of that.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: And so when I started then they were like hey, come and work out with us in the morning, started showing up a few times before the office and uh, I kind of felt like when I started doing that, I started to regain like so you're talking about getting back involved in in basketball, but you're talking.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: The bit that's really fascinating for me here is these friends.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: They were friends.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: They could see something wasn't quite right with how you were operating or working and but they coached you back in.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: They brought you in from a from a from a basketball.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: They use basketball to get you to, to get you motivated again oh man, I mean I just they're just that type of people like they've they.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: They just have like a I don't know helping spirit, a giving spirit, and I think, like Usman, is great at just connecting people through basketball.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: It's, like he said, like through his business career he's met like people who have been on the on his uh, on his board through basketball and uh and same with Omer and Amman.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: So I mean they just they love, they love hoops, like they love just connecting with players, and they've done a great job of staying in touch with all of us, like I said, through this community, with this trainer, jeff, and for me it was like it was just something to look forward to, like even if I just started going once a week, it was like a reason to show up to basketball and they valued talking about it with me and they made me feel valued through my experiences and stuff like that and the way that they treated me.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: It just made me feel even better about myself.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: And so from there did you start to get this.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, you were relearning, okay, you're relearning.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: One started coaching them.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: It got you back in to, I guess, establishing a really strong relationship with them and building this sense of trust.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: I'm interested, then, just a bit on, in this new environment that you found yourself in right at work.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: How did you learn what made somebody good, so that you could assess where you weren't quite succeeding?
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: at, like the tech sales job.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: I think talent, talent is super important in life.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, like people say like work, ethic and habits and stuff like that, but I think having like a natural uh, propensity or talent is something like that I saw in basketball, you know.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: So like I could never, I could never replace like the talent of like a LeBron James right, Like I could work as much as I want, but like I'm never going to be that.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: And then I think, in every field, like through, like through, like that self-awareness in basketball, I started to be more perceptive to like what people are good at and what like what, what I'm not good at.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: And then so once I got into the role with with the sales job, I was like I could invest years into this, but I'm never going to be great and I'm like what, what's, what's my next thing that I can like pursue, being the best in the world at that?
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: That's what drives me.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: And like whether you get there or not is like a matter of a lot of factors or whatever.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: But like I need something where it's like all right, I'm shooting for the moon on this and like if we land in the stars, that's cool and so these, these, these basically like conversations with basketball, kept me in the loop and it just kind of kept me going while I was doing the job.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Beauty, yeah.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: And so now, thinking about where you are today, the role you're in today, as that was sort of being crafted and created, how did you start to realize, hey, I can be successful at this, I could take this to the moon.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: I wasn't totally sure.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: But so what ended up happening was they?
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: I played two years at Wisconsin Parkside in Kenosha, wisconsin.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: One of their pharmaceutical facilities was in Pleasant Prairie, wisconsin.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: It's like 10 minutes from Kenosha.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: So after they had made a sale and been successful in business, naturally they got involved in the university independently of me.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: So as that started happening and we were like having conversations about basketball, they were trying to like do something for the school as like a give back project.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: And because they're basketball fans and if you follow NCAA, like through this NIL and this new world of college basketball, they're like how can we get involved?
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: And like get our teeth into something like that?
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: So we started having conversations.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: Just as a friend, I was consulting them.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: My coach is now at Louisville, so they're one of the best coaching staffs in the country.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, they crush the transfer portal every year.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: So I've seen how they've approached that from a relationship building perspective, from a marketing perspective, and so we just started having these conversations.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: And then Omer has been leading the family office and once he he kind of approached the school and it just it just happened like organically.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: And then once he got the NIL project approved one night.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: He, he just called me and he's like hey, do you, do you want to do this with me?
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: And I'm like when do we start?
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: Like I'm all in.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: So I don't know that.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: I just it just felt right because I trusted these guys and I had it.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: I had like I didn't necessarily know that if I can do the role and I wouldn't say that I've, I've proved that I can.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: Yet it's just in the beginning stages.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: But, like I said I think we talked about it early on that there's a there's a feeling there.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: There's a feeling and it's like every day I wake up, I have an unlimited amount of energy to be the best that I can be at this thing and I can impact other kids.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: I can take like I can feel what it felt like to be in their shoes and try to make their experience even better than what mine was.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: So wherever this path leads, I'm confident that like this is where I'm supposed to be right now.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: That, like this, is where I'm supposed to be right now, and one of the bits you mentioned early on around leadership is for you, that sense of leadership comes from being that follower first, from being in the shoes, from at least being able to empathize with those individuals about the path they're on.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: And now the role, the firm, the company where you know the impact that you're having right now is being able to lead those who are in a position where you've been before.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: True, but also to be a follower, because that's that's one of the things that attracted me to the role is, hey, let me go and mirror the brothers and do everything they do from a business perspective, from like they're unbelievable operators.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: They know how to make decisions, they know how to do frameworks of building companies and stuff like that.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: So it's also like, how can I be the best follower?
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: I can be and like and and serve these guys in this role.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: But then, yeah, it's like on the flip side, like maybe I can, in turn, be a mentor to some of these players, and it's like it's kind of like that.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: That chain of command is fluid, right, like same, same as the season.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: One day you might need to be the follower and another day they call on you and like hey, ryan, like we need a halftime speech and we need to run through a fricking wall, like what do you?
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: What do you?
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: Got for us, you know?
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: So look, last question, right?
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: Last question really is when you're chatting with these youngsters anyone who's listening to this, watching this show when you think about your career and the transition journey that I'm going to say you're in right now, what guidance would you give them to help them best prepare for this transition phase?
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't know.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: One thing that pops into mind is, like just just just dealing with some of like the younger guys right now like just respond to a text.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: Like respond to a text when, when the coaches reaches out to you, it's crazy, like how much it can go for you, like from a likability perspective, to like just respond, be responsive and in terms of like building your life like I would say I'm ambitious by nature.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: My whole life I've always wanted to do something special with my life.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: Like I've had something inside me that I've always wanted to do something special.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: I've wanted to find my passion Like I wanted to like be a part of great things and I think in some ways, that served me well because it's given me the confidence to try.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: And in other ways, I think it can have you feeling anxious or overthinking stuff, and so if you can find that thing of like being urgent, doing everything you can do, but also trying to like be like man, like let me, let me protect my reputation, let me do well by the people I'm working with, like right now, like whatever, whatever is going to come next is going to only be better for it.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: So like lock in with what you got right now, because it's the most important thing that you're ever going to have.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: That's what my coach always says, like, today's practice is the most important practice in the history of the program because it's all we got.
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: It's the next one, and I think that's how you build a transition, like some days I thought I never was going to find my next thing.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: And the next thing, you know, you're full swing and you're, you're wishing you had the free time back right Cause you're, you're so busy, so I don't know if that's good, that's good or bad advice.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: But it's good, it's built from your experience.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: It's built from your experience and that's what's important.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: And listen, the journey that you've taken us on in this hour, just um sharing your, your journey, your perspectives, has been absolutely fantastic.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: So, Jimmy, I've got to say thanks very much for joining me and bringing a bit of career clarity to everyone else.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you, no, for sure I appreciate you and I think it's super cool what you do for athletes, because even just following your stuff while, like, you invited me onto the podcast early on while I was transitioning, like that was a boost for me to know that somebody saw something that was valuable in me.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: And so just a thank you to you and for what you do for athletes.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: And and uh, you know, I know there's a lot of people out there struggling to find that next thing and uh, our shared experiences are more similar than different.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: Right, so it's a, it's a, it's a network of people and, uh, if, if any of your people, or if we can connect in in network of people and, uh, if any of your people or if we can connect and in future ways, I'd love to, and I will say to do that.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you saying that.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: So, uh, listen, thanks again, and we're going to keep in touch, but thanks for joining me and sharing the story.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: Yep, thanks, ryan.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the second win podcast.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: If you're looking for career clarity for your next step.
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: Make sure you check out secondwinio for more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Brook Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: That's all from me.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: Take it easy Until next time.