Latest / Psyched For Sanity / Episode 31 - Understanding Grief

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Episode 31 - Understanding Grief · Psyched For Sanity

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, welcome to Psyched for Sanity.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm one of your co-hosts, Dr.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: Tara McKelvey Parker.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a licensed clinical psychologist.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: I specialize in assessing and treating complex trauma and attachment wounds from childhood.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm your other host, Dr.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Brendel Doss.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, psychologized, specializing in child treatment, trauma treatment, assessment, and forensic psychology, as well as geriatric psychology.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, added to my list.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's problematic.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: And recently, um, I have really been um pondering, if you will, okay a topic that is like not super fun to talk about necessarily, but I think important.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Which is grief.
• 0:58
  unknown: Okay.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: The grieving process.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: So this is why you wanted to do this episode because you've been pondering it.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: I've been pondering it.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: For the last couple of years, um, and again, uh not uplifting to say necessarily, but I've I'm in my early 40s.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of feel like in this stage of life, in my, at least within my intra or interfamily culture and it in like in my little, my, my world, I'm now entering the phase when I'm going to be attending a lot more funerals and dealing a lot more with grief than at the beginning of my life.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, yeah.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where I've kind of been like marinating is the wrong word, too.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Just but like really considering it and looking at that stage and trying to understand it.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: So that's another thing is a lot of times, spoiler alert, we like to talk about things that we are in the midst of on this podcast because we feel like it's helpful.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, this will be helpful for you.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: We'll find out.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I think grief is um misunderstood.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it is something we avoid.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then therefore, therefore, I think it's helpful for us to kind of ponder it and talk about it.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And dive in and talk.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting you so you brought it up that way.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: I've also been pondering grief the past two years, but in a different way.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Very similar timeline, two to three days.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Similar similar timeline, but in a kind of different way, because you're talking about grief in a more traditional sense with like a loss of a person, but you can experience grief for in other for other losses.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so I do think it's misunderstood and it's multifaceted and so and definitely hard to talk about an experience.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but this would probably be a nice episode for us to chat about then because we've had different experiences with grief.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, in the past couple of years.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think the first the step would be kind of like what is grief?
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think grief is the physical and emotional manifestation of a significant loss.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Typically, it's associated with someone you lose to to them passing away to death.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it can be kind of to your point, um, loss of a job.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, loss of an opportunity, loss of an important relationship, not to death, so a breakup or divorce.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um could be the loss of identity.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then grief is mentioned a lot in the trauma literature because you know, a lot of researchers believe that in order to really heal from trauma and neglect, right?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: You really do have to grieve the life that you deserved that you didn't get.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: To experience.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of grief in that.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um so there's many ways, many different losses and situations where grief is super important and appropriate.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think grief for me is not something I have avoided.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: I um my father um uh in different parts of his religious faith has opted like has been a pastor.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: So he's married and yeah, I didn't know that.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Both of my parents.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Both of them.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, very interesting.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: In different in different ways within my religious faith background and in uh growing up, yes.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's cool.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been to, I think maybe, and I didn't realize this until I was in my twenties.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: I've been to a lot more funerals.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And even more weddings, but that's a different, you know, that's we're not talking about weddings today.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's not what's that movie for funeral weddings and a funeral.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I love that movie, by the way.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: I've never seen it actually.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, it's such a good movie.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a good movie.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it's going on my list.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's really good.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Great movie.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think I went to more funerals than most people my age.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you said you were, we were talking about this the other day.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: You said you were at one when you were young, three years old.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I, your response was kind of funny to me when I told you about this.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was I think it was a helpful response.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, apparently, and I don't remember this, but apparently, um I was at this funeral with my father and he was holding me.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I was three or four.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um everyone kept talking about Bob at this funeral.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I, being a small child, was like, Where's Bob?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: And my dad simply said to me, He's not here.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: He's not here.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I was fine with that answer.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: And developmentally three, you're kind of like, Okay, you you I was like, Okay, he's not here.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Not pondering the complexities with not question it.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, All right, he's not here.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like it was very comfort, like I think it was very like concrete, age appropriate for three.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't need to go into detail.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: My first experience with a death that was really impactful for me was when I was 12 or 13.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: There was a woman um in my life, like a family friend.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, still to this day I feel like intense when I talk about her.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Her name is Barbara, um, and I loved her dearly.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like another grandmother to me.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And before I was born, she was battling breast cancer.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the treatment that saved her from breast cancer gave her Hodgkin's lymphoma that ended up killing her when I was 12 or 13.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And in my faith background and in my family, we um were very focused on I remember the process of this.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: We were very within my cultural tradition, it was very much a process.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: We they did prayers for her, and it was like it was her the the dying process for her was not private.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it helped me in a lot of ways.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: It gave me a model.
• 6:25
  unknown: Yeah.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Of an like an option.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that I don't necessarily know everyone gets, but that's okay.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't think there's a right or wrong way.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk about that.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's not a right or wrong way to grieve.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: It gave you an option, you mean like or a blueprint for how grief is it?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: A model something uh of something how you can mourn a person when they're living.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Which is which is very complex.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Which is complex and and cool because uh I mean most people don't necessarily get that.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: It was I don't remember going to funerals or having anybody discuss with me right like grief for you know people in my life passing away or what that meant or how I felt.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Let me tell you about it.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: So not only did they have like services where we would pray over her and be with her, but also she brought all these items that she wanted to give people and she gave them to everyone.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's so sweet.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it was very like Wow.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: I knew at a very young age she was dying.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I remember feeling very intense, and I wrote her a letter that I had my parents give to her because I loved her so much, and I still do.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that was my first experience with grief.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, yeah, I remember all the, you know, they tried, obviously she tried everything she could to extend her life with all possible.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And she was with a wonderful man named Scott, and um they were very much, they were very happy, they were a wonderful couple, they were loved each other dearly.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And before she passed, she told him it's okay if you remarry.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: And before she passed, he told her it's okay for you to let go.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't there for those moments as a child, but I was communicated that.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: You heard the story.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember before she passed and her giving away items of things that she loved to certain people she loved.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember like the services around her, and then I remember her funeral.
• 8:13
  unknown: Wow.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a very it wasn't hidden away from me as a adolescent or a child.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that is okay for some people.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe other people were like, oh no, I would never let my 12 or 13 year old do that.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's well, I think that's your choice.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but this is highly individualized and lost.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: And within families, within families and cultures.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: So there's no right or wrong, just different ways.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I know that we were there in different cultures, there are different ways of of of going through grief.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Before we talk about the cultures, I want to say this though.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know the the one of the hardest parts about grief in the early beginnings of it?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, because when you told me when you asked me this before, I thought about the John Mayer song.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: The heart when you're sleeping with a broken heart, waking up is the hardest part.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the hardest part is when you first have a loss that's recently so huge, yeah, so painful.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's whether it's someone pass or or divorce or anything, a breakup or whatever.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: When you're waking up, your brain is is kind of coming online, if you will, and you have to re-remember the the person or the thing or the relationship is gone.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that it sucks.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: That is hard.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I remember that feeling after a really horrible breakup.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like I remember it very viscerally.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Me too.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like at one certain point, like really feeling that way.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it was it like gut-wrenching.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: It is.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: Gut-wrenching.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Fully.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I haven't had as many significant deaths, or I haven't haven't been able I haven't witnessed them or or been able to sort of grieve or kind of be so.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: I also think I think about grieving and loss more than other people because I I work in one of my jobs in long-term care, which is another wave of saying nursing homes.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I routinely um uh lose patients to them passing away for a variety of reasons.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a part of me, I think, within my professional sense of self that has compartmentalized some loss.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, you kind of have to, I feel like to keep kind of moving forward with it.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: But also I think other losses with other patients just hit harder.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because of the level of closeness.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one thing about grief that's interesting is how we grieve and the level of intensity of our grief varies, but like the depth of the relationship.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, the experience in the relationship, the the positive or negative emotion, all of that can be churned up during grief.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's you know, not being as close to some of my family members growing up is maybe also part of the reason why when they have passed away, I haven't felt it at that level like you have.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I have felt grief very viscerally and very intensely over the past couple of years for different reasons because of a divorce, and because the divorce kicked up old grief, trauma, grief from trauma, abuse, neglect, it all compounded over the past two or three years to the point where I have been going through very similar stages of grief as somebody who has lost someone that they love to death.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: It all kind of maps on to the same kind of grieving process, or at least at least how we think about it here.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, in in the United States, right more so right.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I I in preparation for this, I did do some some perusal of different cultural expressions of grief because they're very different.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they are.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: And certain folks that identify with um a Buddhist faith or have that cultural dedification, there I learned that cremation um is not just like a burial option, like where you could, you know, maybe but it's it's really important for the folks because it helps the soul separate from the body.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: For them to have their journey toward reintegration, which is that's really cool, actually.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I like that.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's and I I want to put this caveat.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: I am by no means an expert on other cultural expressions of grief, and I'm not gonna claim to be that whatsoever.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: I enjoy learning and I think it's helpful to learn.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, another example that I learned about was uh Shiva.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you sit in Shiva.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: In the Jewish Jewish faith, which is it's traditionally seven days, and that is basically that the community kind of gathers around the family, and the family become the official mourners, and they visit the family for seven days, or depending on sometimes they can make it less, they have to follow the official mourner's lead.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think whether like it is a structured approach, which a lot of Western cultures have a more structured approach to grief, or it's um less structured, like sometimes um the phrase celebration of life is used and not just in yeah, non-Western cultures, but across, but sometimes like um grief and mourning can be like really celebratory and vibrant.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that is okay, and that is important, and that however you grieve or however you mourn, whatever type of loss, it's the marking and the acknowledgement that is significant.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: The marking and acknowledgement, and so the actual grief process exists within these different behavioral expressions, yeah, right, of honoring um, you know, loved ones who have passed.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um in the in you know, in the United States, we kind of typically think about like these five stages of grief.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um who the person who So Dr yeah, Elizabeth Kubler Ross.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 1969 on death and dying.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was her big seminal work on on grief.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, interesting.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: In my in my perusal of this, of this area for our talk today, she did not develop this for folks that have lost a person.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: This developed, she was a psychiatrist, a Swiss American psychiatrist.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: She developed this um these stages um because she was really appalled by how people were treated um that were considered what's called hopeless patients.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm using air quotes for those listening at home.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and by basically people that there was no functional intervention for that they would be passing away.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like terminal cancer patients in this timeline, um, you know, late 60s, early 70s, she was developing these talks, and she would have med students and she would come talk to people.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because she was hoping to increase compassion.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: She was trying to increase medical doctors' compassion and awareness that they're talking to a person that deserves dignity and respect.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was actually that's actually just incredibly terrible to think about before that, how these patients were treated.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: But it the stages made way more sense when you told me that because I've always been like, I I had always um conceptualized the stages to be about traditional like grief, like after someone has has died.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of people one of the stages is bargaining.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, how can you bargain when someone's already passed away?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: So that it did make a lot more sense when you told me I didn't know them.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: So the stages really, really briefly, the first stale stage is denial.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: And this is when you are, you know, not wanting to acknowledge this is a defense mechanism to basically lessen the intensity or impact of the um loss or upcoming loss.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Some folks call it shock.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's like that initial shock or a numbness, and it can last and for varying lengths of time, depending on how willing or able you are to start beginning to deal with the rest, the actual grief, the actual feelings associated with the grief.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: And this maps on well to trauma too, and not just like, you know, loss in a traditional sense, but when you've experienced abuse and or neglect and you, you know, just traumatic experiences growing up, many of us cannot acknowledge the grief or experience the grief because we have to focus on survival.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: So we have to focus on putting one foot in front of the other.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: So some people they minimize the trauma or the neglect.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: They, they, they tell me, I wasn't that I I my, you know, my parents did their best.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, well, yes, and right, like it's it's so some people they're in this the denial phase when it comes to their childhood experiences.
• 16:32
  unknown: Yeah.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so they're still in this sort of shock numb, sure, functional, just like moving on phase.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Some people are very proud of moving on from their trauma and not right.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's success.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Being successful, um, you know, and just sort of like sturdy.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: That was me.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Even even if I knew, you know, and even if we know that we experienced hard things and we are in therapy and we are trying to sort of like heal from it, we don't always allow ourselves to grieve to like actually feel the feelings associated with the loss of a childhood we deserved or like needed, or you know, parents or or whatever.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: So lots of people come to therapy and they are in this denial phase with their trauma, sure, their abuse and neglect.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that can be really helpful, like traditional talk therapy, really helpful for folks in those kind of ways.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think the next really important phase that after the shock and denial kind of wears off is anger.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Anger.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, and to caveat this, you know, these stages don't actually have to be like A, B, C, D, E.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because for me, the anger stage is way harder.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm like getting there, but for me, that the actually the next phase was the depression or the sadness.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it can kind of like flu flex.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: Don't necessarily have to go to anger next, but this is another really key emotion and stage.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to feel angry about what's happened to you.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, and anger is another kind of way to manage the pain.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Anger feels safer and stronger than sorrow.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: So depending on personality, right?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: And the way that you generally cope, you may go right to anger.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it's easier than experiencing the depression or the pain.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then some of us are more comfortable with that depression and sadness.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or that's kind of where we go to more, like internalize and after the anger is bargaining, and this is again what you kind of just talked about where the one where I was like, how can you bargain if someone's already passed away?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think people I think some people do though.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you bring them back, I will da da da da.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's true.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think especially with losses that we are that are less acceptable in society.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like I tell people, especially again, again, I work um in nursing homes, long-term care, and I I work with patients where they're in their 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and they've buried children.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And they've bury children.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh god.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: My grandmother buried two sons.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I always tell this, and this is not this is how I feel, we are never meant to bury our children.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's so depressing.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's but that's my point, is that's the bargaining that I would see.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Even if there's a lot of critique and criticism of Kubler Ross's theory.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there is critique and criticism.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that's important to acknowledge, and we are by no means saying this is the theory.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is just a really pretty popular one.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is one that is generally discussed that we wanted to kind of highlight in our conversation about grief.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: So bargaining, you know, I will give you this, this, that, you know, I if you bring them back, or if I if I live for the cancer patients that are terminal, I will do this, if you know, all the kind of things to kind of um prevent, alleviate, or undo the grief or the loss.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a way to maintain it's a way to feel some sense of control, I think.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Whenever it's the entire It's a way to feel some control, I think when to gain to try to get cold over.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: So it feels out of control.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: So out of control thinking about never being able to see a person that you love again.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:48
  unknown: Yeah.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so then after that, this is the next is the depression.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the depression.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very familiar with this one.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: So this is one.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's been a lot of crying and sadness.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: So this is where depression is the stage when you're most likely to turn inward.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the weight of the loss can kind of come in more at this phase.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's just profound sadness when you actually face the loss.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like when you're actually like, Yeah.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, someone I love doing happening.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: Or I actually am divorced.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or I'm actually not, I'm actually fired, or I'm actually whatever.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: I so wish my parents had provided me with enough safety so I don't have to feel scared all the time.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever you're grieving, yeah.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like whatever you're grieving, it's just that profound sadness.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then acceptance, and we'll talk about this in a minute.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to gloss over this.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but acceptance is where you are able to acknowledge the loss and hold it and still like this doesn't mean that grief is done.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Grief is not something that necessarily ends.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I've often heard it described, and maybe this will fit for for you, and maybe it won't.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Grief doesn't get smaller, but our containment and our container of that experience gets bigger.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: Containment and container.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like for us that are able to tolerate the strong emotions that come from.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like when an initial loss or passing happens or a death happens, it feels like it's right up against right up against our face.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's right, it feels so all-encompassing.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think at times, yes, it's still the same size, but our experience is bigger.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think that makes sense.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's been true for me too, of course.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like I've, you know, can remember at the beginning stages of divorce and and starting to grieve um some of my experiences in childhood, I was like in fetal position, like crying on the floor.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was absolutely miserable and terrible.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt like I was never going to feel better.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: And now, after two or three years, still have a lot of pain and sorrow, but it's like, you know, I get I get through it easier and quicker and I can metabolize it a little better.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: I can regulate in my emotions a little bit better.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it still s sucks, but it's also like, oh, like, I got this.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can I can handle this.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think so.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is like, you know, the this was never developed initially for like mourning the loss of a person that has passed away or a loved one.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it's important to note that like grief is so highly individual.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And people um are not necessarily gonna move through these stages in a linear fashion.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And people might skip some stages.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: Skip stages or stay in one for like a really long time.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like in in the trauma literature, um, there's this concept that if you do have an unresolved attachment style, meaning there's still trauma that's sort of, you know, kind of buried and you're still working through it, you kind of fluctuate between sadness and anger a lot.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're kind of stuck with an a kind of open wound as opposed to the folks who come to therapy who are in more of a denial phase, yeah, where the trauma is very buried or segregated from conscious awareness.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: So definitely it's highly variable and individualized.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: And even with acceptance, I've had this experience over the past two or three years where I've had moments of acceptance and integration.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then I fall right back into, you know, even some more of the tougher emotional experiences.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then I kind of like, and it depends, you know, grief too.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's you know, you with the loss of a person, for instance, you hear about the death first, and then you have the funeral, and then there's an anniversary, and then there's a birthday, and so there are different markers of these losses too, where the grief gets stirred back up and you may go back through the phases, right?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so it never necessarily ends, but it gets easier, right?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so are there a few things that folks can do to help you know kind of work their way through grief a little bit easier?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I like to think about this.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: So my um my grandmother died uh three years ago, um, almost four, two days before Christmas, about a month before my son is born.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I was incredibly close to her.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: She passed at 93, and she was just like such an incredible positive person that was so close to me across my lifetime at different phases, she was exactly what I needed.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so how I have tried to move through this process with different stages of grief is I talk to her.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, as if she's there, and that can be very helpful.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Talking to and connecting, sharing how I'm feeling or what I wish or what I'm thinking, or if I'm going through an experience and I wish she was there in person.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um sharing with her my thing and just talking to her really helps.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Other things that I have done that are helpful for me, and this stuff might not be helpful for you.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, it's not I don't assume that my grief is like anyone else's, but these it's always helpful to look at options.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I want to give people's many or what yeah, exactly.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing that might is good is a great way, is it's um, you know, living in a sense and identifying their values and living with those values kind of might be helpful as if you're carrying forward things that they care about.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you lose someone that was really um big into helping a population or had a big cause that was important to them.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: You want to carry that peace on it.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Grief can look like carrying that forward and making meaning.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's another thing that I've done is making meaning.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like how did this person matter?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to be really clear about this.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: This does not mean any kind of justification for loss.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: That is not what making meaning is.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like making meaning out of the loss.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, making the me.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yes.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: What has this meant to me?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: How has this changed me?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: How is this person important to me?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: What do I want to take from this person and carry forward?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, those kinds of things are important.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, certainly as much as possible, you know, sort of acknowledging the reality of the loss and looking at photos and you know mementos, mementos and highlighting rituals that you guys had together.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Carrying those forward and still doing those if you can in a way to honor them.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, I I think for me, the biggest, the biggest thing I've really tried to do over the past two or three years is just like fully surrender to the intense emotions that I have been feeling.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: And having compassion for it.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like actually grieving, like getting it out of me has been like really helpful and really necessary.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like really kind of the whole what point, part of the whole point of you know, gr grieving.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't successfully is not the right word at all, but like maybe in a way that's helpful.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: Moving through, yeah, or helpful is to feel the feelings.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and there's a lot of of in terms of research and the literature, it's not no the idea of letting go is not is not helpful.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: But it's more about moving forward with their memory and what is important to them and carrying that forward.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think in a more balanced way, where you're not flooded by the loss and you're not avoiding the loss, but you're acknowledging it in your feeling, but you're able to sort of move forward in a in a sturdy way as you can, which takes a lot of time.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think surrendering to the emotion is gonna be really hard for a lot of people, and I give you full credit for that.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: But that's really, really tricky and and well, I had I kind of had to because like I couldn't, it it was it was all such a it's just heightened there's so much happening.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: I like and I was like so overcome that I couldn't avoid.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then you know, when I found myself wanting to, I just told myself that wasn't helpful.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um in a variety of ways, but anyway, it was yeah, it's been another thing that can be really helpful for folks um that are grieving is social connections.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: And maintaining those social ties and um in the literature, maintaining social connections, whether it's you know, connecting to other people that are connected to this person or this thing that you've lost, or even just ex making sure that you're socially connected, can engage the grieving process and is part of that moving forward with um and awareness of.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's yeah, it's one of the ways in which other cultures I think sometimes do grief better.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot more community and support, I think, that's naturally built in to the grief process.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: Verse, yeah, versus other versus I I think or my experience that you've had a lovely experience where there has been lots of opportunities for community, and I haven't really yeah, that hasn't been my experience.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's good to keep in mind for sure.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think certain religious faiths do somewhat of a job of that if you have a religious faith background or identify with the faith.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes that part of that is a built-in community aspect.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like a religious culture.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think other things are um, you know, honoring and and recognizing at different phases you're gonna keep moving through these different things.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's always helpful to acknowledge where you are, not necessarily where you want to be.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's helpful to recognize both.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: Where you are and where you want to be.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: If you can, that's hard to do at the same time.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's very hard, but I think it's helpful.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think my my journey with grief is is um is ongoing.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, me too.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I really still struggle.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: My my grandmother held my son, you know.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's still sad to me.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely it is.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's so sad um in the same in the same 12 month period, um, we buried my uncle and my grandmother, and they were best friends.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, that was that was really hard, and that loss um was was both of them were very difficult.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think regardless of what you're grieving, understanding what can be helpful is is is important.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing that we talk about when you look at grieving, and this sounds, and this can also be really hard to do.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: And also can feel, and for some, I think it might feel like it's slightly dishonoring, but I think a big challenge with grief is my my mother just died and the world just keep moving.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like people are still doing things, and that that feels like almost hurtful that the world the world should have stopped.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's this idea that the world should have stopped when this person is now gone.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're I mean, I think it tags right on to the anger.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's an unfair thing to think about.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's like not fair that the world keeps turning and the person I love so much is gone.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: However, so hard over what the what is helpful is doing like the basic routines.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: And grief.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that is um, especially when grief is really intense and profound, which is brushing your teeth and taking a shower, doing the little routines.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: To do the just daily, day-to-day routines as best as you possibly can.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes um depression and grief can can map onto each other and connect.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And when we know for like depression, which is stuck sadness, stuck sadness, yeah.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: The behavioral little things, which are so hard, can really be helpful to lift some of that element.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good point too, and that's a good distinction to make with like, you know, yeah, in grief, there are varying degrees of sadness, and we can get stuck in depression and want to give up on some of that for sure.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: The thing that I always tell folks, and this is something I have learned that has helped me in my grief journey, and that I I'm hopeful that helps my patients that I work with across settings, especially more as it this more directly relates to loss of a person.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: But the depth of your pain is the depth of your love for them.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you are in a lot of pain right now because you love them so deeply.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes sense that you're in so much pain emotionally and it's so hard because your love for them is so profound.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's beautiful.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it does relate to, I'm just thinking about childhood stuff.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, we love our caregivers, and we, you know, I I do think there is pain in um you know, loving someone so much that couldn't give us what we needed for whatever reason.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Loss of that experience for sure.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: I know today's topic has been kind of heavy um in some ways.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: It is sad, it is literal sadness.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: I know, I feel sad.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay to feel sad.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's all right.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's medicine or the body.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: We did an episode on the body.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: We did an episode.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: We've done a lot of episodes.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we have.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know how I I don't know.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know how many we've done today.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea how many we've done a great do you know?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Twenty-two, twenty-three?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, guys.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, 30.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't even know.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: She's telling us we need to wrap it up.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: What are you taking away today from our conversation on grief?
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um I it was really interesting to talk about the cultural pieces, I think, um with grief.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: Mostly right now, I'm feeling kind of sad.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I'm just like want to honor sort of the fact that this, yeah, is a sad topic and that's how I feel, and I'm gonna let myself feel that because that's super important.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: It is super important and it makes sense.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think for me, I am talking about the people I've cared about and talking about these relationships in this format has made me appreciate my love for them and like honor them even further.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just really appreciative in my sadness.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I just am really appreciative of my sadness.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like these were incredibly packful, especially the two women I talked about.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: They were incredibly packful, important people to me.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I love them and I miss them, and that is sad, and that's okay.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's been really sad for you too.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, remembering these.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I really appreciate you guys listening um to this to kind of to this journey I've shared about grief today.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm hoping that in your own grief journeys, that this episode can provide you some some information that I'm hoping is helpful.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, guys, let us know in the comments.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: It is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or any kind of professional mental health treatment.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: We hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely, and we hope that occasionally we'll make you laugh.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can relate to our quest and our sight for sanity.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: The content we share is um our personal opinions and insights.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: They are not clinical insights to anyone, and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we worked at or have worked for in the past.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: But if listening to this podcast does make you think, we really encourage you to speak out a mental health professional in your area.